It should have been a Trilogy like the classics, the Norse Saga story is just rushed. It should have been God Of War 2018, God Of War: Fimbulwinter, and then finally God Of War: Ragnarok.
Yes and they could go around Vanaheim Svarta and Jotunheim before Fillbumwinter destroys the places The final Game could be the same places with a Winter skin
@@msl361 Man of little patience, what's the rush ? Just because you don't have patience doesn't mean others don't. I would rather wait for a trilogy than a rushed garbage story.
I think that term is truly just a word that the younger generation uses as a "complex" word that they believe have a simple definition. Really people should just throw around the word *Favorite* it's more personal, very understandable, and not at all biased.
@@qobo5socikwa666 that made me realize. A modern day audience is actually interested in a 1,500 year old mythology. But I guess that's cause of creative liberties.
DUDE FINALLY! Someone critiquing God of War Ragnarok. I was starting to feel like a crazy person when I saw everyone saying the story was amazing. Its a shame youre part 1 got a lot of views and this was has not popped off yet but you are incredibly intelligent and articulate and I would love to see you make more content like this. Consider making a patreon!
I know you said you dont like rewriting other people's work but that Freya rewrite is literally genius, both moving the Norn sections sooner and having the boss fight be during the hallucination. Holy man thats so smart
Well, you see, that's not... entirely true. Other people have critiqued the game, just not in an intelligent manner. The takes that some of the other people have are devoid of all logic (looking at you synthetic man) while here, you can tell the man actually sat down and thought about this, something I can't say for many other critics. That and most of the critiques (that I've seen anyway) focus more on gameplay while story is secondary.
You wonder why not many people are criticizing it? Because it’s fucking GREAT. When very few people who have any valid criticism are talking, that means the game did a fucking good job at what it was meant to do. I find it hilarious that you’re so mindblown about someone saying something, you wanna hate the game so much for no reason that you’re praising the fact that someone is shitting on it. What a sad life you live lol.
The point I felt underwhelmed was the moment of when the group was together doing speeches before the Gjallarhorn was blown, you could count on your fingers the number of characters present. It didn't feel a war between realms, you couldn't perceive the scale of the impending Ragnarok, if felt too personal, a small conflict that only the characters you've met were a part of. The Gjallahorn should've been blown before an entire army prepared for a grand proportion war.
There’s a way to make a small, intimate story on a grand scale (see LotR) but I agree, completely underwhelming moment. Another one that strikes me is during Ragnarok when all of Freyr’s team Avenger in one after another. I don’t know these characters, I have no connection to any of them, so why should I care?
I think it actually works a lot better on this scale because both games were about intimate relationships and family, it's not the original, bombastic GoW no more. If they pulled a full out infinity war instead of just having Freir lead the charge it would feel disingenuous, you weren't really building an army throughout the game, you were forming a family ,or if you want, a crew, all to stop Odin specifically, not cause Ragnarok, not destroy the Aesir, for 90% of the game your sights were set squarely on Odin, the reason it lacks grandeur is because it's ultimately not a celebratory resolution to a tyrants rule, it's the bookend to a tragedy. The biggest, most bombastic events like Surtur emerging don't feel like the cavalry is here, it feels like an avalance, everything during ragnarok is going down and it's going down poorly for everyone. Everyone in that game is Odins victim in some capacity, even people who never even met him like Angraboda, so when they finally assemble to kill him, it's not something to be celebrated, it's broken and hurt people from all over the realms finally taking revenge on someone who deserves it wholesale. It's why Odins death comes from Sindri, why it's all so somber and quiet, it's not a marvel movie, it's a Greek play in a Norse setting.
@@aminebenabbas3593it might’ve been down to every character there being an actor on the volume, hence limiting the amount of characters, but they could’ve used more normal npc’s instead.
I'm surprised that you didn't address Jormungandr. Considering he played a significant part in first game, his role in GoWR is rather small. His fight against Thor that was supposed to be intense in Ragnarok and the reason why he was sent back in time (which is a pretty big deal considering Mimir and Kratos dialogue about it) was super underwhelming. Hell, Thor's 2nd fight in Ragnarok was super dissapointing considering how awesome the first fight set pieces were.
Agree like imagine if Kratos has to rely on Joel’s help to find the Norns due to his familiarity with the lake of nine. That would make him more relevant and especially would make the Norns feel less tedious cause we are doing it with Jorm.
Riding Jormungandr breaking the frozen lake then through reality like Fenrir/Garmr and gnaw the roots of the world tree to get to the norns well underneath broooo why didn't we get a third game >_
@@jasonkvinlaug7043cause the devs didn’t want to spend 15 years making the arc that is the reason. They just got tired of the story not that I blame them. Unfortunately that meant they kinda had to rush a lot of it
@@victory8928 I still doubt a third game would make this better. Williams is on record saying almost nothing was cut from the game, that everything was how they envisioned. While that could be marketing fluff, it makes me think he just plain didn’t know how to steer the story ship
I know I'm late to the video - but thanks for making this! there's a lot of great writing advice in general in this video and I love it. I've heard the south park advice of "go for but/therefore writing and avoid 'and then' writing" but I've never really seen a great example of it until this video. And, it makes perfect sense too. all the moments that sound so lifeless and meandering when you look at the overall plot, now I can clearly see what the problem is. thanks man.
@@thegammelieri have to say thks as well currently doing my own writing project and it helped me process a lot more and streamline more of my points in a more meaningful manner so that it fits better
@@victory8928 hey, thanks! That was the whole point of this channel, to help people understand the nuances of writing and carry it forward into their own works
The first game had no influence from the outside world or 3rd parties. I don't know what happened in that office that Cory Barlog had to leave the writing team. But I truly have the feeling that it had to do with them rushing the Norse Saga in order to start the next Eygpt Saga and to work on whatever new I.P they've been keeping secret for a few years now. The Norse Saga was completely designed to be a trilogy. Yet their excuse was that "It would have taken to long." Like wtf? The total lack of accountability of taking on such a responsibility, then dropping half way because quoted, "personal reasons." Is BS. Norse mythology has an emotional level on me. To have them car crash the 2nd and 3rd game into 1 game, feels like such a spit in the face behind the culture and storying building Cory Barlog carried it. The story doesn't just feel disjointed. Nothing makes efing sense.
It's funny how even a few throwaway lines would imrpove the game. Like if Odin said "I've been looking for you for years, but then all of a sudden, your cabin just appeared to my scrying--you must have had some powerful cloaking spell fail in this damnable winter." Stuff like that--quite a few problems I've seen defended with assumptions and guess work that, honestly, aren't bad guesses, but it's still a problem that the game doesn't actually explain things (and so I often see mutually-exclusive guesses too, with people not realizing that their "obvious" explanation is just one of many possibilities). Especially when characters also don't ASK, things that clearly beg questions but the characters just breeze on like it doesn't matter. No one is like "Freya, what stayed your hand?" It comes across as very artificial, like the characters know parts of the script and so they don't bother inquiring.
I’m okay with having to draw our own conclusions or for something to be left unsaid- but only when the script actually supports it or sets up the audience’s assumptions. GoW Ragnarok leaves *too* much unsaid or will explain it later during a walk and talk scene between set pieces
Finally someone acknowledges how the spear hitting Heimdall is stupid. I swear everyone just ignores the massive plot hole and pretends that it makes sense. I was so upset by his boss fight because Heimdall was the only character I actually liked. He felt like the biggest threat because of his foresight. For a while I thought it was going to be a huge obstacle, but its just an excuse to give Kratos a new weapon.
@@thegammelier the boss fight by itself was fun, but I couldn’t get into it with all of the horrible story decisions that I was noticing, and then, when I finally got to the fight with the only character I actually liked they dropped the ball on the logic so bad that I completely lost my interest in the game.
@@thegammelier oh, and I wanted to thank you for making this video. I’m fairly new to writing so I couldn’t completely understand why I thought the story was bad, but you really helped me get all of my thoughts together.
They kinda just retconned what the hell he did in the game which felt kinda meh honestly. The fight itself is done amazingingly with how kratos tackles heimdall through the cutscenes and in the fight but as you all point out yeah why would the spear blast affect heimdall if it doesn’t daze or stun people.
@@texualsension1793 YES while the boss fight is POSSIBLY the hardest main story boss, it wasn't because of his foresight, it's because of his last phase where he's feral. As a combat encounter I think it's one of the best in the game. But it's literally so underwhelming and dumb. All main bosses except Thor 1 (which barely means anything because he's just distracting you) are pretty underwhelming honestly
My biggest issue with Ragnarok is in the previous game they showed that kratos is going to die but in Ragnarok kratos never felt in any danger on the contrary norse gods felt so weak
"YOU ARE GOING TO DIE, GHOST OF SPARTA. YOU CANNOT AVOID IT" is said so many times that it baffled me when Kratos just... casually avoided fate. Like, I know he has beaten fate before, but that was WITH active effort to achieve that goal, Kratos not dying/being in a position of real vulnerability during Ragnarok is implied to be somehow a "consequence of Kratos' actions!" rather than sheer fucking coincidence. It feels super fucking unsatisfying.
Kratos and thor could have a 2nd fight,maybe right after heimdall where kratos died. Then the same way sindri bring back brock, Atreus will dive into the lake of souls and collect the parts of Kratos' soul.
I feel like you missed a very simple relationship between the tree-barrier and the events in the story: > Atreus maintains the barrier to keep Freya (And reavers) out. > The emotional turmoil of Fenrir dying contributed to him turning into a bear, thus breaking the barrier. > Odin finally finds them because the barrier was broken, paralleling how Baldur found them in the first game, forcing them to leave home. The rest is spot-on. The story was just beat after beat after unconnected beat. It felt so anticlimactic. The "build-up" was spotty when it was there at all, so it all fell apart instead of coming together. Especially your response to that "manipulation" line at 1:01:25? Family dog. I saw it coming. Still had to giggle.
A lot of these story problems are the symptoms of the Norse saga being forced into being a duology instead of a trilogy. I love the game, and firmly believe that, within the framework of it needing to wrap everything set up in GOW4 up, it does the best it can, but that doesnt change the fact that the story has significant issues due to this compression. For example, what if the second game in this pretend trilogy was, like this game, about Kratos prepping Atreus to be on his own, and Atreus trying to subvert the prophecy of his father's death, and their journey focuses on that, alongside trying to defeat Heimdal to start Ragnarok. Then, the third game could be about Kratos having accepted that Atreus is ready to flee the nest, but figuring out if he'll revert to his old ways without him, given how brutally he killed Heimdal. This would have given the story much, much more breathing room.
This is my favorite video on the subject and is putting so clearly into words what I felt about this game but couldn't quite put together myself without the knowledge of storytelling you obviously possess, thank you!
and best part of 2018 was when he was taking back his Blades of Chaos and when he faved Athena and the Zeus in Helheim.. These moments were not in Ragnarok and even in Valhalla DLC the premise was that you have to Face your old self to grow.. but they didn't made younger Kratos final boss.. ppl said cuz if you were able to defeat younger version it would have been bad for brand.. but the whole thing is he shouldn't have to defeat Younger version of himself.. It should've ended with him saying (i forgive you) and then the younger version went invisible.. It would have been something that made us Cry our eyes out... But no, you have to fight Tyr 10times!
Yo man, I just wanna say this video is really well made and the effort you put into it is clear. I was able to learn a lot about writing through your explanations. You deserve way more subs man. Looking forward to any new videos!
I was so shocked when Atreus broke the mask and then it was sucked by the rift. All that build up for... nothing. I was expecting Odin getting a power-up, but it was dissapointing
@@MrKack54 you don't get it Bruh, there was a potential for a plot twist or something big for Atreus, but all it's ends up being wasted, he could have joined Odin and took the mask and Odin could have made Atreus go against Kratos, also games can have both good writing and cool moments
What was the point of Atreus being Loki? How did Jormungandr go back in time? How did fate change? What was the point in Fenrir? Why did Sutr change his mind about fighting because of Kratos blades? Why did Skol and Hati amount to nothing other then a day night cycle mechanic? Kratos has a dream where Faye says "there isnt much time".... time for what? Faye also tells Kratos he has to bring her ashes... not Atreus! I thought the whole point of the first game was the Atreus wasnt ready to do it, but now if Faye only told Kratos to do it he could have left Atreus with Brok, Sindri or Freya and done it himself. Theres so much more too, this game was a narrative disaster, i have no idea why or how it got the praise it did
"What was the point of Atreus being Loki? How did Jormungandr go back in time? How did fate change? What was the point in Fenrir? Why did Sutr change his mind about fighting because of Kratos blades? Why did Skol and Hati amount to nothing other then a day night cycle mechanic?" The answer is just "the first game said these things needed to happen, and we couldn't/didn't care to find an organic way for them to happen". Ragnarok is a mediocre story, and a terrible sequel. Atreus just accidentally creating Jormungandr, and that never meaning anything for anyone, is such a perfect encapsulation of this game's story.
And who blew the horn in the first game offscreen? That is likely something they planned to answer when they were planning a trilogy and probably involved time travel, but they cut that out and it now remains without an answer. Also, is forseti really baldurs son like in mythology? If he is, then freya is kind of a hypocritte for not caring about his existence
@igotnopatience1717 I'd imagine the original idea 100% would have tike travel, seems a bit dumb that the only reason Jormungandr is in the present day in 2018 because he was sent through time. I'm convinced Tyr also was supposed to be Kratos who was sent back in time and that depiction of his death was the original intended birth of Jormungandr. (Whethere he comes back from the Hellheim after that or it was his true death I don't know) Unfortunately although Balrog gave us an incredible 2018 game, ultimately he chose not to involve himself in Ragnarok and he chose to make the sequel the finale and not make a trilogy. He even said he had plans for the trilogy and had little nuggets in 2018 that he planted for subsequent sequels.... why he chose not to carry on has me in disbelief. He said he didn't want to spend 10 more years ro finish the story, so instead he left it in the hands of someone less capable and destroyed the narrative. Can't blame the guy who took the helm, he had no say in it, he just had to direct a rushed game to its conclusion. Sad all round really.
@@PaulM68322 yeah, the thing we see coming out of jratos in the mural was either him becoming jormungandr or atreus taking his soul to carry it and ressurect him later, agree with all you said
I stumbled across this video and I’m so happy I clicked it. It’s so great to see someone just be objective and clear about the shortcomings of a story. I hope you do a review of Baldur’s Gate in the future! Obviously it’s not a one path story like this one, but there are several key points that I believe could be worth analysing. Suffice to say you have a new subscriber 😄
I keep telling my friends about how bad this story was and how it just broke my heart. Who and why Ingrid? What and why the mask? How did prophecy get avoided? The story is very incoherent and mind boggling. There is just so much bad in the story, like I can’t see how anyone could be happy with how any aspect of the story played out, this game needed one more sequel. The ending just happens, no build up, nothing feels earned as the story moves forward.
Yes the story is very bad and atreus sequences are the most boring shit ever but IGN will give it a 10 because it's God of War that's the definition of a Cash Grab but they are selling the game to childrens after all Unfortunately God of War is a child's game now
Of course it's bad if you dont read any notes you found and dont know any mythology. You expect everything to be thrown in your face? Avoided prophecy? The Norns said it in plain text that there is no fate, you just act too predictably. Kratos reconsidered his views on the pain of others, on trusting his son, and therefore changed his fate
@@masato1200 if you’re relying on that much subtlety to make up for your bad story telling, then you lost most your audience. There are way too many ass pulls and gaps for the notes to have fixed the whole story. Even if you answer how fate was changed by fate not being real is one thing, but doesn’t make up for the rest of the bad story.
FINALLY someone who doesn't calls this a "revolutionary, groundbreaking, masterpiece that pushes the narrative in gaming forward", lol. I don't hate the game or anything like that, its just people nowadays call anything a masterpiece and the word is being overused. I'm glad you broke this game down to a fundamental level and actually explain what went wrong & why many parts of the narrative just don't work. I'm watching your Aloy breakdown and I'm loving it, keep up the great work my guy. You've earned a sub.
I found so many problems with this story and I’m not going to be as articulate as you, but some of them were: The rewriting of the giants murals at the very beginning of the game. As soon as this happened I immediately knew the something was up with the writing. Instead of building off of what the players already knew about the lore, we instead get a “revelation” that the giants murals were not at all what we were told. This immediately killed all of the tension for me. Everything I was expecting was now obsolete, everything we learned about in the first game is now obsolete. It made me change the way I thought about the story, instead of a continuation of the story from the first game I thought about it as a separate story because obviously what we learned in the first game is not important to the conclusion. Why did Odin kill Brock? If he knew he would need Atreus to open the rift why on earth would he kill one of his closest friends? The master manipulator and evil genius couldn’t foresee how Atreus might not trust Odin anymore after he murders one of his friends?!? It made absolutely no sense. Why did Atreus go see jormungandr? I can’t think of a genuine reason other than to force a way into the story for Loki to become interested in iron wood. The world serpent didn’t have a real purpose in the story at all, but because it was said that he looked familiar in the first game we now have the iron wood level in gowr. It served no purpose at all in the end other than loki learning his shapeshifting which also didn’t matter, and the other thing that happened was Loki finding out Kratos is “supposed” to die. Sure it can be said that finding jormungandr in the first game was just a coincidence as well but at least there is a reason, they had to go over the lake of nine to get to the mountain. The way kratos kills heimdall is not at all brutal enough to try and convey that kratos is returning to his old ways. And he had no choice but to kill heimdall, and this is even acknowledged by mimir when he says “I don’t think a warning is going to cut it” so why is he shocked and disgusted when kratos kills him? It makes absolutely no sense. There are many more things but I’m not trying to write a novel here, but anyways I think your series on this game is absolutely incredible and I applaud and thank you for making it. It seems many people won’t acknowledge the flaws in the story or simply can’t see them.
Okay so I'll address two of these. "Why did Odin kill Brok?" Odin didn't need Atreus to open the rift once the mask was complete. Odin needed the mask. Brok prevented him from essentially walking away with it and then he could have just disappeared with the raven. "why is Mimir shocked and disgusted" He's not shocked and disgusted. He objects once, and then makes a comment about fate and then they continue on. Mimir is well aware that they are now feeding the prophecy once again. That is why he objects so fervently - he's trying to remind Kratos what is happening. This is during a section in the plot where it was beginning to feel like Kratos and Atreus could infact decide their own fate. IMO your particular criticism is wrong. Mimir's reaction made sense. But I'll admit that the scene could have been better.
I've struggled to put into words exactly why I didn't enjoy Ragnarok nearly as much as GoW4. This video perfectly lays out why the whole story felt "clunky" despite most individual scenes being fantastic. It's a shame, the game was so close to being amazing...
That is actual true in the scenes around the tree House Like the scenes eating in the table is so FAKE i can't buy Kratos is eating a sausage with a knife 😂
Pretty sure I didn’t- but also, that’s off screen and before the game starts, so I’d still say it’s not a direct reason The game should have started with Atreus and Sindri looking for him, then running into Freya, then her and Kratos fighting. Solves all my problems at once
@@thegammelier That's a nice idea but the version they went with works too. I feel like you were harsh on this game and kind of ignored the faults of the previous one. Liked the video though
This might be the most interesting and well made discussion on the topic, i didn't fall asleep while watching this so it must count for something. It's not because of short attention span, i've heard the Pale Blood Hunt and the 7 hour analysis, these 2 games are just so mid i can't stomach them. This is the only time (aside from "God Of War Case Study") where something interesting was brought up and new insight was gained. Very well made video dude
Cool breakdown, I too am a OG GOW fan. I think overall, I was disappointed with GOWR. But, it makes me love 2018 and the rest of the series even more, which I think is the biggest win this game could give .
This game has me so conflicted; individual scenes in vitro feel well written and poignant, but together, the game feels hollow. There’s so much context and story missing. The narrative is disjointed, the build up to Ragnarok just isn’t there. It really just feels like the entire third game got cut, and crammed into the final 3 hours of this one. Man, that hurts. 2018 was and is a masterpiece, and playing this one only reminds me of what could have been.
2:50 can’t believe you forgot the most Important aspect of these things, Kratos never wanted to be god of war and just wanted to not suffer from Greek tragedy PTSD from killing his family, then Zeus kills him for supporting mainly the Spartans even if the Spartans are the ones mainly worshipping him and because he is destined to kill him. That leads Kratos to killing Zeus and the gods that got in his way to Zeus.
Just finished the game a week ago and for some reason the more I sit with the game, the more it bugs me. I feel like the story they are trying to tell isnt bad, just executed poorly, but it can be fixed and add deeper meaning and context if they added a few new lines or even flip around some events. E.G. Freya's arc I felt like she was done dirty in the game, easily forgives after setting her free. What i believe would add more meaning to her character and made her change so better if she made it clear when she meets Atreus again that she states "Do not hold hate for you Atreus. You wasn't the one that snapped his neck and took my one chance to set things right. You were just a kid. I fear you'll turn into next". So you set up she does not hate Atreus, only Kratos and fears he'll turn into his father. Then you move it so when Artuse comes back from ironwood, he just goes back to the house instead of the fight with Freya. kratos and Atreus still fight and Atreus runs away. Keep playing as him and doing his story, but when we cut back to Kratos he is looking for Atreus in midgard. though everyone believes he run off to Odin like he implied, Kratos believes in a small hope he isn't. So worried for his son, he is looking all over for him. But because of that Freya shows up, trying to kill Kratos once again. Fight happens, Kratos breats her, can kill her but doesn't, Freya makes a comment how the kid isn't with him and he screams back that Odin took him. Freya for once in the game in the game is taken aback by it and comfused on how to feel. One hand she hates Kratos for what he did, but hates Odin way more, but even more what he did to her and her son. And is now scared of what he'll do to Atreus. Freya offers a rocky peace to get the kid nack, only if Kratos sets her free, but she makes ot very clear that shes doing it for the boy, not Krato, and even after they find him she still plans on killing Kratos. Then what you said about the freya should happen, that her seeing herself kill her som should be the part where she doesnt forgive, but accepts Kratos for did. This could probably be better, but again the story told feels like it changes the characters for events to happen, instead of making the actions and feelings of the characters control the story. Add a few lines or move some events around and the story is better. I loved 2018, I wanted to love this too, but the story felt messy, like they tried to ram 2 games into one.
Ingrid should've returned to Atreus and been used to kill Odin. Drop Frer from the story. P.S. Kratos did nothing wrong in this game, he was just surrounded by stupid people.
Mimir complaining about you choking out Heimdall was a beyond jarring cognitive dissidence. I refuse to believe the line was what was intended for that scene. The reason being is you fight wolvers in this mission. To which you rip a wolvers bottom jaw and the front of its chest off. Slow choking (no more pain only dreams now) Heimdall to death is the most tame kill in the whole game!
Ikr? I was hoping that Kratos would go full berserk killing everything/everyone like he used to in the old games. And that line when Kratos and Atreus are in helheim “I’ve been returning to my old ways” was such bullshit
I really appreciate this, I felt really empty about the conclusion of ragnarok and I really couldn't articulate why was it so. There was an absurd amount of praise talking about how this was the perfect conclusion to the entirety of GOW. Came out of it feelin really disappointed with both the spectacle and the narrative. The worst thing was that all the build up with lore and the characters felt thrown aside for somthing messy and half baked. How ragnarok was the ultimate war between gods. The world serpent and thor having a battle so intense it ripped through space time. Kratos's death. The fucking mask. A whole bunch of loaded guns that never got to fire.
You can tell they didn’t fire them on purpose, subverting expectations, but normally when my expectation is subverted I’d hope it’s replaced with something better…
Personally I like to compare GoW Ragnarok to The Last Jedi, both seem to ignore or mistreat a lot of setup of the previous entry because the new guy in charge (I dont care if he has been with the team for a long time, that arguably makes it worse) wanted to do his own thing and not an actual sequel to satisfy the people invested in its world and story. The fact Ragnarok itself, this End of the World event is such a disappointing nothingburger after the story dragged its feet getting there makes it imo a bad GOD OF WAR game. How did we go from the spectacle of GoW3 to this? Even GoW 2018 had way better feeling fights.
20:12 people only said they hated it because most gow players think the franchise's core is to make a game that has cool visuals, satisfying gamepley and good actors.
@@frankkennedy6388 I say that because I've not played any other God of war games other than the newer ones. And it's not like the franchise was unknown to me. I just only ever found interest in it when gow 4 came out.
@@frankkennedy6388 but if you really want what I think it is. Then it's a game that is surrounded by narrative function. And creates the game around the story. Pretty much, Story comes first, game comes second.
yeah basically there is a masterpiece hidden in bad direction or bad writers (i read they got more than 1 thats why you get multiple ideas drop to trash) my ultimate opinion: this game need it REALLY NEED IT a trilogy, not only by story but the world they wrote is so big literally 9 realms with 3-4 societies and the worlds in this game are absolute EMPTY not by gameplay but imagination or ideas (compare to 2018). i feel other mistakes are some kind of DISNEYFICATION not not because of the ejem "characters" but the characters dialogue, the actual plot, the end battle kinda parodies ENDGAME OF THE AVENGERS THE HELL or even the fact all ALL THE BOAT STORIES ARE 3/4 OR HALF ABOUT JOKES ABOUT characters talking about "nothing" at all and the rest are actual information, life stories and idontknow references to other stories. By the way the Tyr twist is not bad the real problem i see is how Odin is not a villain is not like THE BIG BOSS is just a dude searching a mask and fighting the Vanir gods bruh at least the Tyr plot should have consecuences like idontknow FOOD POISON OR MAYBE Freyr and Freya fighting because Tyr says something you know something BIG like Baldur destroying the portal and going to Hellheim you can feel the consequences not only in story (with the zeus ghost) but gameplay with literally a hell out a fights Plus my other BIG BIG BIG issue is not just the "THENS" is how Loki goes for answers never ask SOMETHING TO ODIN EVEN USING THE MASK FOR BLACKMAIL, Kratos a god who never believe in destiny and "time goddesses" NOW GOES TO THE NORNS BECAUSE THE PLOT SAY IT, or again Kratos droping the "believe you heart boy" speech MIDDLE THE BATTLE OF RAGNAROK and all because some humans die yeah the same god who kinda kill half of the population and im talking because he kill Baldur and the 3 years winter full of canibals begin BECAUSE OF KRATOS THE HELL the writers never think all this stuff a little more i feel dumb just by explaining how they are bad writers compare to the last game, even the VALHALLA DLC re-writes a lot A LOT OF THE OLD GAMES to make Kratos the good or the bad guy if the plot say it
43:14 In fact, she says that Forseti, Baldur's son, investigated and collected the evidence. A character who acts, has importance to the government of Asgard and yet we don't even see him. In addition to obviously having a narrative importance since he is related to most of the Norse gods we see in the game.
@@thegammelier That was my response. Denial, denial...anger! That's why it was so hilarious 🤣 Thanks for the breakdown. Having completed the game I knew something was off and empty about this game but couldn't understand why. Thanks for breaking down the "why". Disappointing story, good gameplay. Empty.
Absolutely incredible video and script, I too have been subbed to jacob geller for years now, and I want you to know, this video is easily at the level of quality i hold some of his best video at, its that good, thank you for making good content. looking forward to seeing more content from you.
59:18 on the issue of being worshipped, I was expecting a reference to the beginning of God of War II. After ascending to the throne of the God of War by killing the previous God of War Ares in the first game, Kratos was indeed worshipped for a while mostly by his former spartan countrymen. As the new God of War, Kratos was said to have taken Sparta through numerous and glorious victories against their enemies and was worshipped for it, although it seems that he never really cared about humans in general. But neither did the other Gods in the Greek pantheon tbh.
This video is truly remarkable. It offers a super observant and honest critique of the game. It’s refreshing to see someone finally acknowledging all the flaws in this game.
I have very, VERY strong beliefs when it comes to self-preservation and the ethics of taking a life. And I have a sneaking suspicion that you and I think differently about this topic. It is then telling that, despite that probable divide, you still nail everything wrong with the Heimdall "payoff." You cut straight to the heart of it, and leave it bare for all to see. Every other part of that section is just icing on the cake.
@@marcocortes3279 The point was not to elaborate, so as to avoid contention, but I've thought about it more and I think I have a way of phrasing it that will still keep the temperature low. It seems like -propaganda- common sense states that a civilized society is one without force, but I think the opposite is true, a civilized society is one where force is abundant and readily available. It would be nice if all the people in your nation share a religion that keeps them cohesive and respectful, but how do you account for psychopaths or outsiders? It needs to be understood that force will be met with force. I believe that any form of unprovoked physical aggression means your life is forfeit. If you break into someone's house, they should not have to divine your intent or check you for weapons, you're dead. If you punch someone and they pull out a gun? 100% justified. If I remember correctly, knives are considered lethal even at a range of up to 10 feet (and that is for professionally trained police officers, so civilians should have a larger window). If someone makes an actionable threat on the life of your child? It could not be more cut and dried. To be fair to Gammelier, I'm assuming he's a bit of a lib (he does drink microbrews, after all). I feel pretty safe in that assessment since he seems more conciliatory when discussing Heimdall's death, while I simply couldn't stop laughing at how ham-fisted the narrative was. Isn't threatening children and small animals supposed to be the nadir of villainous actions? And we're supposed to be conflicted about the death of such a person? It was absolutely ridiculous.
Am glad you took the time to elaborate this much, i wanted to understand you more and now i do. About heimdall it is true that his death scene was supposed to be that dark moment for kratos but as i share your opinion on self defence i tought about what happened as kratos doing the good thing once again. Never in one scene between 2018 gow or ragnarok i saw old kratos coming out, he wasnt even there. new kratos was afraid of his past all the time but he already changed. old kratos was never going to come out and never did. PD: What i mean is, kratos internal conflict seems to exist and be a big deal but in the end you realize how controled kratos was, that means, his conflict was just fear. He was never going to return to his old ways. Specially after stating in the last game how he was free of his past now.
All right, I'll watch this again. You convinced me. But in all seriousness I am really confused by the accolades that this game got. I'm going through my second replay right now and it is nowhere near as good as the first. Their entire portions of the game that I wish I could skip. So many parts of the game that are simply tunnels you walk through with a few battles on each end that exist only to allow characters to deliver dialogue. I don't think time will be as kind to this game as God of war 2018. I think it's inferior and almost every single aspect except maybe gameplay variety.
Oof, god speed, friend, I don’t have the strength for a second playthrough. Maybe in a few years and now knowing what it is ahead of time, I’ll be able to appreciate it on its own terms
Only just finished it after not getting back to its since its release. Was very disappointed with the Ragnarok "war" at the end. I mean who did they lose in this war? Brok and Freyas annoying brother? Heavy losses indeed. I was honestly expecting massive consequences for all and i really expected Odin to have more up his sleeve than pretending to be Tyr.... Anyway great spectacle throughout but very safe and disappointing story. Im gonna get cracking on Valhalla and see what thats like when i get a chance. Nice vid bro.
44:53 this could've been done a bit better if Sindri gave Atreus the teleportation thingy just in case, when he'd wanted to visit Freya, near the beginning of the game but he wouldn't ultimately use it, saving it for a worse situation instead
This game is very similar to Batman Arkham Knight for me. VEEEERY similar. Both are games that I were actively anticipating which is very rare for me. Both had a fantastic previous installment that is in my top 10 of all time. Both are games I replay OFTEN because I love the actual gameplay and side content. And both are games that I always feel frustrated about while playing them, Knight a bit less so (I think acceptance has kicked in. They have very similar story and structure issues and both take important and compelling set ups from the previous games and basically does nothing with them. Both feel tonally off from the previous game and the characters act weird, to a point where you can't imagine the same characters interacting in the previous game. (Can you picture Magni Modi or Baldur in the same UNIVERSE as Odin, Thor and Heimdall? I can't) Both games have terrible pacing and a lot of "and now we need this, but first we need this, and then they go here" Both have rushed conclusions and both have really bad twists
The previous two Arkham games were written by Paul Dini, a seasoned professional, Knight was written by Rocksteady's own team. They did a fine job on the moment to moment stuff but didn't bring it all home like Dini would-- same as Ragnarok under Williams. Fine moment to moment, much less so as a grander tale.
@@thegammelier precisely. Even Origins feels like it was written with a clear vision of what the story should be, it's different from the other two but in a good way. Arkham Knight feels like the Devs wanting to make a GAME that catered to larger general audience, while Asylum and City felt like they were made for Batman fans. Same with GoW2018 to Ragnarök, Ragnarök feels like a GAME while 2018 feels like a tale. The Marvel quips and overdramatic scenes of people explaining how they feel is a large contributor
@@thegammelier It's weird tho. Both are games I LOVE replaying, so I can't hate them as much as I claim. I guess FRUSTRATED is the word. Both games have amazing, fluid gameplay but there's a lot of meandering in between the cool gameplay sections.
I think there are some things that are not explored in the video. The fact that the mask is just a useless mcguffin, for example. Or even the fact that during the entire game, they try to build up Kratos' death. You play the game "knowing" that Kratos will die in the end, and he is accepting that, but in the end he doesn't die. There are so many plot conveniences and contradictions. I just don't know what the writers were drinking when they made this game.
You talking about Atreus and Thrud talking about Odin being a bad person? Pretty sure I addressed this in the video but I'm not sure if that's what you're referring to
@@thegammelier You said that atreus and thrud pick up a conversation that happened off screen about how bad Odin is but they had that convo in helhime before freeing the big dog
Wow, you're the first person I've seen on youtube to do a really good video game story breakdown. Do you have any recommendations of books to read on writing? I would be every greatful
Very good video, I too found Ragnarok's story very dissapointing and you put it very well into words. I will have to defend the thor thrud conflict though. Mimir and Atreus talk about Thor and his family, and they come to the conclusion that Thor in his drunken rage beat up his son in the first game, so his wife gave him an ultimatum to stop drinking and be better. This was in a side quest, so missable, but I actually like when side content gives meaningful context to the overall narrative
Thanks for the response! Yes, I must have missed that, as I admittedly did not do all the side content, though I’d still much rather have had that relationship more fleshed out on screen between the two of them and not mentioned off handedly by a third character
to be fair, i think the reason we don’t see the conversation between Odin and Atreus is that we are supposed to question whether or not Atreus is being 100% honest with Kratos. Later on, Kratos asks Mimir what Odin and Atteus talked about, and Mimir said he wasn’t able to hear all of it. So it was an intentional decision that had a good reason, not bad storytelling.
A decision with good intentions can still not be the right choice to make, y’know? It’s not like the audience has any doubt Atreus is loyal, only Kratos, but my point was less about that one specific scene and more how the one camera take affects all the rest of the storytelling
@@duckking404 problem is that when you see flaws and how better are others games you cannot unseen that and that change the experience. It is always feeling "its ok ,but it could be much better"
I hate how Freya thinks Atreaus will just stand by and let her kill his Dad. Like, what purpose does killing Kratos, do? Shes not too keen on being around him until Kratos says he killed his previous family. And unlike Freya, who has years of experience, a living, breathing house, and magic on her side, Loki realistically had a shack in the middle of the unprotected woods, with a couple wolves and his bow. If Kratos was Killed, she was gonna be indirectly/directly responsible, for the death of Loki too. Freya is stupid.
27:41 Actually I think this was a subtle way to show Odins manipulation of Atreus. Odin is one of the smartest god alive and Is all seeing with eyes and ears everywhere, however he pretends to not know Heimdall switched sides to make himself seem more humble and funny.
I don't understand how you can unironically play the scene of Freya literally saying "I AM ANGRY!" as a way to soften your criticism. That scene is a complete joke from a writing perspective. Like, actual parody tier.
In the part of the video called narrative imperative, how come atreus searching for tyr isn’t enough to answer why Odin and Thor come knocking at the door? I understand that it’s not as much of a direct link as kratos chopping down the tree opening them up to invaders, but it’s still a link that could be used to explain why Odin and Thor decide to come.
@@thegammelierLOL I knew it! Great video, man. My biggest gripe about this game was how boring all of the Atreus parts were. That’s the only thing that keeps me from replaying it
I just hate Atreus. He was kind of cute and novel in 2018. But in this title it was agonizing to choke down his segments. I found nothing particularly interesting about his development. I didnt "connect" with him in a way that seemingly many people did. His existence undermines the entire franchise imo. Kratos got put on the backburner for no good reason. Its not god of war anymore - it's something else. The current culture has a habit of sprinking pixie dust on everything and turning it into my little pony.
That’s still me. The video was originally three parts released over a few months, so I was able to address some comments made to part one way after the fact
Game is still siq just could’ve been better. Something like Rise of Skywalker is infinitely more disappointing because it just completely undoes everything that was good in the original trilogy like Vader’s sacrifice. Ragnorok didn’t make 2018 GOW any worse, if anything it made it better
@@fatos342 Yeah, that's the sad part. GOW 2018 was praised for how much it sets up plot points for Ragnorok...but Ragnarok didn't deliver on or even address some of those things. We didn't even find out who blew the horn. :'( So in retrospect, some of these plot points weren't even planned.
Some of your examples of "unbroken cause and effect" can only be such if you don't consider the events of the previous game. An example is when freya attacks kratos. There's a reason she's attacking. I agree the original god of war was written better.
You miss my point: it’s not that there’s no reason, because obviously there is if you take the first game into account. It’s that there’s no reason in *this* story why they happen. Think of stories as self contained things, each one needs its own reasons for events to happen, otherwise it feels unmotivated.
@@thegammelierthat's such a strange point to make, I understand its important in context of creating a story using a strict framework. But I have no idea how that reasonable inference of freya's rage in the previous game, coupled with dialogue stating that there has been multiple attempts. Your 'but' and 'therefore' criticism seems to work in a linear framework expecting an event right before to lead to the next. I don't know about you but I feel fine triaging plot threads, and seeing where they lead. Ragnarok can create a reasonable but and therefore thread if you agree to separate parts of the plot, and agree there is nuance to why things are happening. Sure it is not ultra concrete as the 2018 more linear focused storyline, but then again I never wanted it to be, I wanted to things to have varied a effects I wanted to know the reasoning for actions in the game to be varied and complicated. But I feel like you discount them too quickly, without feeling a perfect causal link. I can understand that frustration, but the reason I still find myself liking the story is that I'm perceiving it differently each time revisit it. Gow 2018 I understood first time through and to be honest each time through however enjoyable it will always diminish for me. But for raganrok (excluding slower sequences like ironwood), I feel like I'm understanding the nuances of why the story would have played out this way. And honestly much of my disappointment with game wasn't with much of the first 80% it was literally ragnarok being too short too small a scale, and frankly lacking the grit, of the fights with garm and thor1. I honestly think if surtr, fenrir, jorm and the warring armies, had an darker atmosphere of war and death, I think people would be more satisfied with game because there is a greater payoff after experience a behemoth of a plot.
@@aryanullal2877The raggy battle IMO, had a pretty dark atmosphere and there was a good chunk of spectacle in it, I think it more so has to do with the camera than anything tbh as you have to pay attention to what’s happening around you compared to a fixed camera angle(luckily I’m a pro at the game so it’s easy for me).
I enjoyed ragnarok, but i agree that it felt disjointed. Getting the armies together should've been many missions, and the ragnarok event should've been much bigger and longer than it was. Had fun, but i would've preferred that they did one more game in the norse Saga to make ragnarok the cataclysmic event it should've been.
1:07:00 I have to admit I disagree with this point. I think as far as the point "vengeance does not make you whole again" goes, this is one of the better instances where it happens in this story. Sindri, even after taking his vengeance against Odin, is broken, bitter and seemingly abandons even his home. He full-on dives into the pit of despair. Every other character had lots taken from them by Odin, and yet all of them chose not to go down the path of vengeance and are better off for it. The one character we see actually indulge in these darker urges - critically, AFTER Odin had been banished into a marble and was no longer a threat to anyone, and AFTER the point about how futile revenge is had been made repeatedly - is immediately punished for it. He chose to indulge in rage and hate over acceptance and forgiveness. Brok alerady WAS dead. He died many years ago, and Sindri's haphazard attempt at bringing him back from the dead left his soul incomplete, which is the very reason that Brok's soul cannot reach the light of Alfheim. In a way, the one that TRULY killed Brok WAS Sindri, not too dissimilar from how Freya was ultimately the one who killed Baldur in the long run. His inability to let go is what breaks him. The one thing I dislike about this is how much blame he pins on Atreus for this. Like, yes, he invited Tyr into their home, and he tried to play a long-con on Odin which obviously failed, but how is this Atreus' fault more than anyone else's? Nobody saw Odin's deception coming, and Atreus did everything in his power to try and deescalate the situation between the Aesir and Kratos & friends. It just feels like something that they didn't actually put into the script and then didn't consider.
@@billjacobs521 My feelings about plot holes are perfectly summed up by the below. Does TLoU2 have a lot of warts? Hell yeah it does, but it lands a lot more than it misses for me. th-cam.com/video/j9HivyjAKlc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=9Jx3hdpGCrDFEb1f
Considering that most of the supposed "characters acting out of character for the sake of the plot" in TLOU 2 people like tp bring up amounts to "Joel would never enter a safe house presided by people he doesn't know after saving one of theirs, he'd stay outside in minus 20 degrees, in the middle of a blizzard and with a whole ass horde of infected running through the area like a cautious smart person" I'm gonna go ahead and say no
On the part about the tree, Lokis handprints did put up a barrier that prevents those frozen zombie things from reaching their home, this is why when he becomes a bear and knocks down the tree they begin to attack
Yeah, I didn’t mention that in the video, mistake on my part-but I maintain it’s only really in here because it’s iconic from the first game. Odin and Thor can visit regardless (even if people theorize they snuck in once the barrier was down) and Freya attacks much later out of nowhere when the barriers are up. It’s inconsistent and imo ineffective storytelling
I just beat the game a few days ago. Felt like I wasted 40hrs . Gameplay was fun but wtf was that story. I immediately replayed GOW1 & damn, what a difference .
Hang on, hang on. That guy pointlessly jumped out of an aircraft to defend the team from a not necessarily deadly dragon, leading you to go rescue him on one of the largest, and most fruitful maps in the game. Sure, having Mimir's favorite coffee mug fall overboard could have served the same function, but that guy was important, I tell ya.
Another weird plot point for me was the scene when they group escapes on the flying boat. The random dude who got a whole dramatic scene that I was supposed to care about because of the dramatic music. Then you are given the boat but barely use twice after that.
Okay the Draupnir's purpose is something i agree on. It doesn't make sense how just an exploding spear can't be predicted by a guy who can predict your every move. But after he's first wounded it makes sense that his arrogance leads him to fight blindly causing his death
I thought the reason why they kept doing the trees with the hand prints was to keep Freya out, cause when she attacked them in the beginning and screamed and made everything start falling and crumbling towards them kratos said we’re almost to the stave and once they cross it it gets calm
Yeah, that’s the reason…but is it a good one? Good enough for the retread, good enough to start your new story with? EDIT: Also, I forgot that Freya attacks Kratos within the tree line during her boss fight, so…she could just ignore the barrier all along?
Yeah, it’s called the protection stave. I don’t know how this Dingus didn’t realize that or at least didn’t feel it was necessary to mention. There are definitely problems with Ragnarok and its story, but he’s just being insufferable overdramatic douche.
How in the everloving fuck do you not have way more subscribers? All of your videos, or at least the ones that I've seen, are very well edited and scripted. This channel, as long as it continuously uploads and continues with this quality, is a ticking time bomb to be catapulted into the youtube algorithm. 687 subs as I'm writing this, but it shouldn't be for long.
Can anyone also clue me in as to what made atreyus even consider that tyr might be alive and that'd be worthwhile to look for him? I'm in the middle of my second playthrough and I feel like this is a huge plot hole. He's presumed dead or heavily implied that he's dead in the last game so what would even give a traias the slightest suggestion that he was alive and in prisoned?
I think because of the hidden murals, right? He and Sindri had been searching them out for a while. I dunno, I could be mistaken. It’s really bad story structure to have had Sindri and Atreus searching for the murals before the story started in the first place. It’s very passive, even if having them do it beforehand sets up Kratos’ mistrust when he learns Atreus has been up to that
@@thegammelier maybe they implied it but it's definitely never explicitly stated. Very frustrating because that's one of the things that really starts the story off. I still just can't believe they messed it up so bad. People blame the fact that it was going to be three games and that they had to compress two games into one game. But they could have easily cut a lot of stuff and I chose not to. I don't know. Hopefully whatever game Corey barlog is working on now He won't just abandon (assuming it's a multi part story. ). He claimed to set up so much in 2018 and spoke about it so much. And then just dipped.
@@tbowne05 In the hidden prophecy of Skol and Hati he saw what he assumed to be Tyr leading the armies against Odin in Ragnarök. So if he's gonna be around when Ragnarök happens that means he's alive.
@@fatos342 okay but if tyr is supposed to be dead why did he assume the figure he saw was tyr? From what I remember the figure shown was so generic looking (especially when you consider a turned out to be kratos) that it could have been anyone. Why did he think it was tyr if tyr was dead. This is like a whole chicken or the egg thing and I think is a major flaw in the story.
I thought he was just trying to find out more about the prophecy but Odin read it as trying to learn about Tyr’s location as he went to Tyr’s shrines to get the giant shrines. Only after Odin visits does Atreus think he is alive but that isn’t explained well in the game
This is such a great video. I just washed it a third time simply to enjoy the information on writing that you give. Are you ever going to do a video on God of war 2018 or uncharted 4 (which you seem to think is the best game ever)?
I'm mustering up the courage to one day make that U4 video. I wanna do it justice and hit AAAAAAAAALL the talking points about why I think it's great. It'll probably be another 60 minute long video, and those sure take a long time to make.
Hey man just finished watching your video and gotta say, it was incredible. Great Job and keep up the good work. Now onto my problems with my story. I am nowhere as good as a story analytic like you but I gotta say a few things. First, I think the story was too safe. All the bad guys die, the main characters live and the day is saved. I think many people overlook the problems in the story because it had a “good” ending. Now you compare Ragnarok with GOW 2018. I think it completed kratos and Atreus arcs. But the ending also had kratos killing Baulder in front of his Mom. Or look at the original trilogy where because of his vengeance, the entire Greek world was destroyed. Second, this is my personal opinion, I think Kratos should not have a good ending where he lives happily ever after. Remember he destroyed the Greek world killing thousands of innocents. Just think how hard it would have hit if Kratos went back to his old ways killing everyone and starting Ragnarok to save his son, only for Atreus to hate him in the end. Or Atreus watching Kratos die and turning into a lying and manipulative being to destroy Odin’s family and starting Ragnarok. It would have hit much more harder that way then the way it is presented in this game. Third, Freya’s arc makes no sense. She decided to kill Kratos, then decides to use him, and then work with him like him killing Baulder never happened. There was no resentment towards Kratos after that one cutscene where she forgives him for killing her son. Also coming to my first point, it was too safe. Again Kratos or Atreus having to kill Freya because she was blocking their path would have hit much more harder than say Brok’ s death. Fourth, the character’s actions have no real consequences. They destroyed an entire relam, and how did it affect the other worlds? Nothing. Compare this with the original games and you will see what I am saying. Kratos killed the Gods and it destroyed the world and its magic along with it. Kratos again kills the Gods and nothing really happened. Kratos despite being driven by vengeance is a bad man. Sure the Greek Gods are not saints either but he does kill millions of innocents because of his actions. Compare this with RDR2. Despite being a prequel to RDR1, it perfectly leaves where the original starts. And you look at Arthur’s story. He was a bad man. He killed a man for a few bucks and because of that he dies. But when he realise his end his near he decided to save John sacrificing himself and completing his arc. He changes in the end of the story, but that does not mean he doesn’t face his past consequences. The reason the ending hits so hard is because it’s more real than say him living happily ever after. He faces the consequences of his actions. He might be a good person in the end, but he cannot change his past which catches up with him. Or look at John where his vengeance allows pinkertons to know of his location, they use him, kill him which inturn has jack follow the same path as his father. I think the game would have been much better of being 3 parts as originally intended. The ending just felt so rushed and the left a lot of things to just “and that just happened because we have to progress the story”.
Thanks for the kind words, and you make a lot of sense. I actually like the idea of Kratos truly going back to his old ways in order to save his son-- but the writers wanted happy endings, so that just wasn't in the cards.
Honestly I like atreus and kratos not sharing the revelation of kratos dying, yes they both know this, but it's knowledge that would really hurt the other, in the end it would make them closer, but they don't know that, it makes then seem more human and that's something many games really can't replicate, mostly because if they do these types of criticism arise, I, for once, really like how god of war turns these characters suprisingly human and that refusal to share what they know, knowledge that they both know and can work together to solve, drifting them apart due to misscomunication, they might be gods but they still have humanity, they mess up, they misscomunicate and I really REALLY love that
I’m glad this video exists to put words to how I felt about Ragnarok. I felt like an insane person while playing it, how was it reviewing this well when the story felt so off? I enjoyed my time with Ragnarok, but it fell far short of my expectations.
It should have been a Trilogy like the classics, the Norse Saga story is just rushed.
It should have been God Of War 2018, God Of War: Fimbulwinter, and then finally God Of War: Ragnarok.
now it's more like God Of War: Fumblewinter
Yes and they could go around Vanaheim Svarta and Jotunheim before Fillbumwinter destroys the places
The final Game could be the same places with a Winter skin
I'm so glad it wasn't a trilogy. Who has the patience to wait so much for another title.
@@msl361 Man of little patience, what's the rush ? Just because you don't have patience doesn't mean others don't. I would rather wait for a trilogy than a rushed garbage story.
@msl361 well i felt like that but then i got this rushed story and felt empty after it was over cos it was just so...fumbled
It's baffling how many games are labelled "masterpiece" it feels like that term actually means "new game in very popular franchise"
Yeah, "masterpiece" is thrown around A LOT
People love hyperbole
I think that term is truly just a word that the younger generation uses as a "complex" word that they believe have a simple definition.
Really people should just throw around the word *Favorite*
it's more personal, very understandable, and not at all biased.
😂😂😂 a spartan in nors mythology in itself is proof that the game is a stretch but I still think the game did a good job
@@qobo5socikwa666 that made me realize. A modern day audience is actually interested in a 1,500 year old mythology.
But I guess that's cause of creative liberties.
DUDE FINALLY! Someone critiquing God of War Ragnarok. I was starting to feel like a crazy person when I saw everyone saying the story was amazing. Its a shame youre part 1 got a lot of views and this was has not popped off yet but you are incredibly intelligent and articulate and I would love to see you make more content like this. Consider making a patreon!
I know you said you dont like rewriting other people's work but that Freya rewrite is literally genius, both moving the Norn sections sooner and having the boss fight be during the hallucination. Holy man thats so smart
The algo do what the algo does, all I can control is the quality of my content.
Thanks for watching!
Well, you see, that's not... entirely true. Other people have critiqued the game, just not in an intelligent manner. The takes that some of the other people have are devoid of all logic (looking at you synthetic man) while here, you can tell the man actually sat down and thought about this, something I can't say for many other critics. That and most of the critiques (that I've seen anyway) focus more on gameplay while story is secondary.
You wonder why not many people are criticizing it? Because it’s fucking GREAT. When very few people who have any valid criticism are talking, that means the game did a fucking good job at what it was meant to do. I find it hilarious that you’re so mindblown about someone saying something, you wanna hate the game so much for no reason that you’re praising the fact that someone is shitting on it. What a sad life you live lol.
@@Reaper-or8ht Synthetic Man was amazing.
The point I felt underwhelmed was the moment of when the group was together doing speeches before the Gjallarhorn was blown, you could count on your fingers the number of characters present. It didn't feel a war between realms, you couldn't perceive the scale of the impending Ragnarok, if felt too personal, a small conflict that only the characters you've met were a part of. The Gjallahorn should've been blown before an entire army prepared for a grand proportion war.
There’s a way to make a small, intimate story on a grand scale (see LotR) but I agree, completely underwhelming moment. Another one that strikes me is during Ragnarok when all of Freyr’s team Avenger in one after another. I don’t know these characters, I have no connection to any of them, so why should I care?
Exactly,severe lack of scale and grandeur
I think it actually works a lot better on this scale because both games were about intimate relationships and family, it's not the original, bombastic GoW no more.
If they pulled a full out infinity war instead of just having Freir lead the charge it would feel disingenuous, you weren't really building an army throughout the game, you were forming a family ,or if you want, a crew, all to stop Odin specifically, not cause Ragnarok, not destroy the Aesir, for 90% of the game your sights were set squarely on Odin, the reason it lacks grandeur is because it's ultimately not a celebratory resolution to a tyrants rule, it's the bookend to a tragedy. The biggest, most bombastic events like Surtur emerging don't feel like the cavalry is here, it feels like an avalance, everything during ragnarok is going down and it's going down poorly for everyone.
Everyone in that game is Odins victim in some capacity, even people who never even met him like Angraboda, so when they finally assemble to kill him, it's not something to be celebrated, it's broken and hurt people from all over the realms finally taking revenge on someone who deserves it wholesale. It's why Odins death comes from Sindri, why it's all so somber and quiet, it's not a marvel movie, it's a Greek play in a Norse setting.
It works when you know who is there. 4 gods and 4 valkyries. More gods and more valkyries than are in Asgard.
@@aminebenabbas3593it might’ve been down to every character there being an actor on the volume, hence limiting the amount of characters, but they could’ve used more normal npc’s instead.
I'm surprised that you didn't address Jormungandr. Considering he played a significant part in first game, his role in GoWR is rather small. His fight against Thor that was supposed to be intense in Ragnarok and the reason why he was sent back in time (which is a pretty big deal considering Mimir and Kratos dialogue about it) was super underwhelming. Hell, Thor's 2nd fight in Ragnarok was super dissapointing considering how awesome the first fight set pieces were.
Agree like imagine if Kratos has to rely on Joel’s help to find the Norns due to his familiarity with the lake of nine. That would make him more relevant and especially would make the Norns feel less tedious cause we are doing it with Jorm.
@@victory8928joels lmaoo
Riding Jormungandr breaking the frozen lake then through reality like Fenrir/Garmr and gnaw the roots of the world tree to get to the norns well underneath broooo why didn't we get a third game >_
@@jasonkvinlaug7043cause the devs didn’t want to spend 15 years making the arc that is the reason. They just got tired of the story not that I blame them. Unfortunately that meant they kinda had to rush a lot of it
@@victory8928 I still doubt a third game would make this better. Williams is on record saying almost nothing was cut from the game, that everything was how they envisioned. While that could be marketing fluff, it makes me think he just plain didn’t know how to steer the story ship
Frig sounds so cringe when she tries to talk when angry and yelling. The delivery feels like she is "Larping".
"Bow to YOUR QUEEEEN"
I know I'm late to the video - but thanks for making this! there's a lot of great writing advice in general in this video and I love it.
I've heard the south park advice of "go for but/therefore writing and avoid 'and then' writing" but I've never really seen a great example of it until this video. And, it makes perfect sense too. all the moments that sound so lifeless and meandering when you look at the overall plot, now I can clearly see what the problem is. thanks man.
Thanks for watching, quite a few of my other videos are stuffed full of writing advice as well
@@thegammelieri have to say thks as well currently doing my own writing project and it helped me process a lot more and streamline more of my points in a more meaningful manner so that it fits better
@@victory8928 hey, thanks! That was the whole point of this channel, to help people understand the nuances of writing and carry it forward into their own works
The first game had no influence from the outside world or 3rd parties.
I don't know what happened in that office that Cory Barlog had to leave the writing team. But I truly have the feeling that it had to do with them rushing the Norse Saga in order to start the next Eygpt Saga and to work on whatever new I.P they've been keeping secret for a few years now.
The Norse Saga was completely designed to be a trilogy. Yet their excuse was that "It would have taken to long." Like wtf? The total lack of accountability of taking on such a responsibility, then dropping half way because quoted, "personal reasons." Is BS.
Norse mythology has an emotional level on me. To have them car crash the 2nd and 3rd game into 1 game, feels like such a spit in the face behind the culture and storying building Cory Barlog carried it.
The story doesn't just feel disjointed. Nothing makes efing sense.
You know a game of this size takes around 4 years of development, 12 years for a trilogy is a big time deal
Not that I disagree with you, but I'm afraid that it was Cory Barlog HIMSELF that decided it would be done in 2 games instead of 3.
@@spaziovuoto6819 they could've have a break in between and make another game while writing the scrip for the 2nd game but no they fumble it
This is very appreciated. It is much better having it all in one video.
You’re welcome!
One of my fav videos. The knowledge gap part is so crucial. Great work!
It's funny how even a few throwaway lines would imrpove the game. Like if Odin said "I've been looking for you for years, but then all of a sudden, your cabin just appeared to my scrying--you must have had some powerful cloaking spell fail in this damnable winter." Stuff like that--quite a few problems I've seen defended with assumptions and guess work that, honestly, aren't bad guesses, but it's still a problem that the game doesn't actually explain things (and so I often see mutually-exclusive guesses too, with people not realizing that their "obvious" explanation is just one of many possibilities). Especially when characters also don't ASK, things that clearly beg questions but the characters just breeze on like it doesn't matter. No one is like "Freya, what stayed your hand?" It comes across as very artificial, like the characters know parts of the script and so they don't bother inquiring.
I’m okay with having to draw our own conclusions or for something to be left unsaid- but only when the script actually supports it or sets up the audience’s assumptions. GoW Ragnarok leaves *too* much unsaid or will explain it later during a walk and talk scene between set pieces
Finally someone acknowledges how the spear hitting Heimdall is stupid. I swear everyone just ignores the massive plot hole and pretends that it makes sense. I was so upset by his boss fight because Heimdall was the only character I actually liked. He felt like the biggest threat because of his foresight. For a while I thought it was going to be a huge obstacle, but its just an excuse to give Kratos a new weapon.
I really do wish they came up with a better way to beat him. I liked the fight itself, it's fun, but it makes zero sense considering how he's set up
@@thegammelier the boss fight by itself was fun, but I couldn’t get into it with all of the horrible story decisions that I was noticing, and then, when I finally got to the fight with the only character I actually liked they dropped the ball on the logic so bad that I completely lost my interest in the game.
@@thegammelier oh, and I wanted to thank you for making this video. I’m fairly new to writing so I couldn’t completely understand why I thought the story was bad, but you really helped me get all of my thoughts together.
They kinda just retconned what the hell he did in the game which felt kinda meh honestly. The fight itself is done amazingingly with how kratos tackles heimdall through the cutscenes and in the fight but as you all point out yeah why would the spear blast affect heimdall if it doesn’t daze or stun people.
@@texualsension1793 YES while the boss fight is POSSIBLY the hardest main story boss, it wasn't because of his foresight, it's because of his last phase where he's feral. As a combat encounter I think it's one of the best in the game. But it's literally so underwhelming and dumb. All main bosses except Thor 1 (which barely means anything because he's just distracting you) are pretty underwhelming honestly
My biggest issue with Ragnarok is in the previous game they showed that kratos is going to die but in Ragnarok kratos never felt in any danger on the contrary norse gods felt so weak
"YOU ARE GOING TO DIE, GHOST OF SPARTA. YOU CANNOT AVOID IT" is said so many times that it baffled me when Kratos just... casually avoided fate.
Like, I know he has beaten fate before, but that was WITH active effort to achieve that goal, Kratos not dying/being in a position of real vulnerability during Ragnarok is implied to be somehow a "consequence of Kratos' actions!" rather than sheer fucking coincidence. It feels super fucking unsatisfying.
Kratos and thor could have a 2nd fight,maybe right after heimdall where kratos died. Then the same way sindri bring back brock, Atreus will dive into the lake of souls and collect the parts of Kratos' soul.
You've done the best job in pointing out the issues in this story for sure
I feel like you missed a very simple relationship between the tree-barrier and the events in the story:
> Atreus maintains the barrier to keep Freya (And reavers) out.
> The emotional turmoil of Fenrir dying contributed to him turning into a bear, thus breaking the barrier.
> Odin finally finds them because the barrier was broken, paralleling how Baldur found them in the first game, forcing them to leave home.
The rest is spot-on. The story was just beat after beat after unconnected beat. It felt so anticlimactic. The "build-up" was spotty when it was there at all, so it all fell apart instead of coming together.
Especially your response to that "manipulation" line at 1:01:25? Family dog. I saw it coming. Still had to giggle.
A lot of these story problems are the symptoms of the Norse saga being forced into being a duology instead of a trilogy. I love the game, and firmly believe that, within the framework of it needing to wrap everything set up in GOW4 up, it does the best it can, but that doesnt change the fact that the story has significant issues due to this compression.
For example, what if the second game in this pretend trilogy was, like this game, about Kratos prepping Atreus to be on his own, and Atreus trying to subvert the prophecy of his father's death, and their journey focuses on that, alongside trying to defeat Heimdal to start Ragnarok. Then, the third game could be about Kratos having accepted that Atreus is ready to flee the nest, but figuring out if he'll revert to his old ways without him, given how brutally he killed Heimdal. This would have given the story much, much more breathing room.
I was so excited for this game. I kept thinking about how we were going to kill Odin. I was so disappointed when it was the dwarf
While I agree, Sindri 100% deserved that kill.
@@EJaDav then they made Kratos cry 😂 I kinda hate this game
This is my favorite video on the subject and is putting so clearly into words what I felt about this game but couldn't quite put together myself without the knowledge of storytelling you obviously possess, thank you!
and best part of 2018 was when he was taking back his Blades of Chaos and when he faved Athena
and the Zeus in Helheim..
These moments were not in Ragnarok
and even in Valhalla DLC the premise was that you have to Face your old self to grow..
but they didn't made younger Kratos final boss..
ppl said cuz if you were able to defeat
younger version it would have been bad for brand..
but the whole thing is he shouldn't have to defeat
Younger version of himself..
It should've ended with him saying (i forgive you)
and then the younger version went invisible..
It would have been something that made us
Cry our eyes out...
But no, you have to fight Tyr 10times!
Yo man, I just wanna say this video is really well made and the effort you put into it is clear. I was able to learn a lot about writing through your explanations. You deserve way more subs man. Looking forward to any new videos!
I was so shocked when Atreus broke the mask and then it was sucked by the rift. All that build up for... nothing. I was expecting Odin getting a power-up, but it was dissapointing
Lmao 💀 they really wasted so much of our time to build up Atreus only to be nothing in the end
Its the only part I'm just meh about. Like the briefcase in pulp fiction. It doesn't matter what's inside.
omfg you people know nothing about good writing. all you wanna see is characters do something cool not a good story
@@MrKack54 you don't get it Bruh, there was a potential for a plot twist or something big for Atreus, but all it's ends up being wasted, he could have joined Odin and took the mask and Odin could have made Atreus go against Kratos, also games can have both good writing and cool moments
@@Omega-jg4oq the game does have a balance of good writing and cool moments
Odin was underpowered and didnt feel as threatening and lethal as Zeus. Like he didn't show all of his true powers.
This was some next level story breakdown. Great vid, my man.
Dear Sony, based on Ragnarok and Spiderman 2 convoluted plots, cab you hire this person?
What was the point of Atreus being Loki?
How did Jormungandr go back in time?
How did fate change?
What was the point in Fenrir?
Why did Sutr change his mind about fighting because of Kratos blades?
Why did Skol and Hati amount to nothing other then a day night cycle mechanic?
Kratos has a dream where Faye says "there isnt much time".... time for what?
Faye also tells Kratos he has to bring her ashes... not Atreus! I thought the whole point of the first game was the Atreus wasnt ready to do it, but now if Faye only told Kratos to do it he could have left Atreus with Brok, Sindri or Freya and done it himself.
Theres so much more too, this game was a narrative disaster, i have no idea why or how it got the praise it did
"What was the point of Atreus being Loki?
How did Jormungandr go back in time?
How did fate change?
What was the point in Fenrir?
Why did Sutr change his mind about fighting because of Kratos blades?
Why did Skol and Hati amount to nothing other then a day night cycle mechanic?"
The answer is just "the first game said these things needed to happen, and we couldn't/didn't care to find an organic way for them to happen". Ragnarok is a mediocre story, and a terrible sequel. Atreus just accidentally creating Jormungandr, and that never meaning anything for anyone, is such a perfect encapsulation of this game's story.
gameplay decent visuals nice production value through the roof. That's the answer why it got praise. But i'm also really disappointed in the narrative
And who blew the horn in the first game offscreen? That is likely something they planned to answer when they were planning a trilogy and probably involved time travel, but they cut that out and it now remains without an answer. Also, is forseti really baldurs son like in mythology? If he is, then freya is kind of a hypocritte for not caring about his existence
@igotnopatience1717
I'd imagine the original idea 100% would have tike travel, seems a bit dumb that the only reason Jormungandr is in the present day in 2018 because he was sent through time.
I'm convinced Tyr also was supposed to be Kratos who was sent back in time and that depiction of his death was the original intended birth of Jormungandr. (Whethere he comes back from the Hellheim after that or it was his true death I don't know)
Unfortunately although Balrog gave us an incredible 2018 game, ultimately he chose not to involve himself in Ragnarok and he chose to make the sequel the finale and not make a trilogy. He even said he had plans for the trilogy and had little nuggets in 2018 that he planted for subsequent sequels.... why he chose not to carry on has me in disbelief. He said he didn't want to spend 10 more years ro finish the story, so instead he left it in the hands of someone less capable and destroyed the narrative. Can't blame the guy who took the helm, he had no say in it, he just had to direct a rushed game to its conclusion. Sad all round really.
@@PaulM68322 yeah, the thing we see coming out of jratos in the mural was either him becoming jormungandr or atreus taking his soul to carry it and ressurect him later, agree with all you said
I stumbled across this video and I’m so happy I clicked it. It’s so great to see someone just be objective and clear about the shortcomings of a story. I hope you do a review of Baldur’s Gate in the future! Obviously it’s not a one path story like this one, but there are several key points that I believe could be worth analysing. Suffice to say you have a new subscriber 😄
I keep telling my friends about how bad this story was and how it just broke my heart. Who and why Ingrid? What and why the mask? How did prophecy get avoided? The story is very incoherent and mind boggling. There is just so much bad in the story, like I can’t see how anyone could be happy with how any aspect of the story played out, this game needed one more sequel. The ending just happens, no build up, nothing feels earned as the story moves forward.
Now you can tell your friends to watch this video! Or get new friends!!
Yes the story is very bad and atreus sequences are the most boring shit ever but IGN will give it a 10 because it's God of War that's the definition of a Cash Grab but they are selling the game to childrens after all
Unfortunately God of War is a child's game now
There’s too many holes left in the story. I was hoping for two or three dlcs… seems were only getting one?
Of course it's bad if you dont read any notes you found and dont know any mythology. You expect everything to be thrown in your face? Avoided prophecy? The Norns said it in plain text that there is no fate, you just act too predictably. Kratos reconsidered his views on the pain of others, on trusting his son, and therefore changed his fate
@@masato1200 if you’re relying on that much subtlety to make up for your bad story telling, then you lost most your audience. There are way too many ass pulls and gaps for the notes to have fixed the whole story. Even if you answer how fate was changed by fate not being real is one thing, but doesn’t make up for the rest of the bad story.
Great video! You deserve more subscribers man, the quality of your videos are high
Thanks! Watch the HDZ one, I talk about Ezio ALOT
FINALLY someone who doesn't calls this a "revolutionary, groundbreaking, masterpiece that pushes the narrative in gaming forward", lol. I don't hate the game or anything like that, its just people nowadays call anything a masterpiece and the word is being overused.
I'm glad you broke this game down to a fundamental level and actually explain what went wrong & why many parts of the narrative just don't work.
I'm watching your Aloy breakdown and I'm loving it, keep up the great work my guy. You've earned a sub.
Just found your videos. Great content. Keep at it, my friend.
I found so many problems with this story and I’m not going to be as articulate as you, but some of them were:
The rewriting of the giants murals at the very beginning of the game. As soon as this happened I immediately knew the something was up with the writing. Instead of building off of what the players already knew about the lore, we instead get a “revelation” that the giants murals were not at all what we were told. This immediately killed all of the tension for me. Everything I was expecting was now obsolete, everything we learned about in the first game is now obsolete. It made me change the way I thought about the story, instead of a continuation of the story from the first game I thought about it as a separate story because obviously what we learned in the first game is not important to the conclusion.
Why did Odin kill Brock? If he knew he would need Atreus to open the rift why on earth would he kill one of his closest friends? The master manipulator and evil genius couldn’t foresee how Atreus might not trust Odin anymore after he murders one of his friends?!? It made absolutely no sense.
Why did Atreus go see jormungandr? I can’t think of a genuine reason other than to force a way into the story for Loki to become interested in iron wood. The world serpent didn’t have a real purpose in the story at all, but because it was said that he looked familiar in the first game we now have the iron wood level in gowr. It served no purpose at all in the end other than loki learning his shapeshifting which also didn’t matter, and the other thing that happened was Loki finding out Kratos is “supposed” to die. Sure it can be said that finding jormungandr in the first game was just a coincidence as well but at least there is a reason, they had to go over the lake of nine to get to the mountain.
The way kratos kills heimdall is not at all brutal enough to try and convey that kratos is returning to his old ways. And he had no choice but to kill heimdall, and this is even acknowledged by mimir when he says “I don’t think a warning is going to cut it” so why is he shocked and disgusted when kratos kills him? It makes absolutely no sense.
There are many more things but I’m not trying to write a novel here, but anyways I think your series on this game is absolutely incredible and I applaud and thank you for making it. It seems many people won’t acknowledge the flaws in the story or simply can’t see them.
Okay so I'll address two of these.
"Why did Odin kill Brok?"
Odin didn't need Atreus to open the rift once the mask was complete. Odin needed the mask. Brok prevented him from essentially walking away with it and then he could have just disappeared with the raven.
"why is Mimir shocked and disgusted"
He's not shocked and disgusted. He objects once, and then makes a comment about fate and then they continue on. Mimir is well aware that they are now feeding the prophecy once again. That is why he objects so fervently - he's trying to remind Kratos what is happening. This is during a section in the plot where it was beginning to feel like Kratos and Atreus could infact decide their own fate. IMO your particular criticism is wrong. Mimir's reaction made sense. But I'll admit that the scene could have been better.
I've struggled to put into words exactly why I didn't enjoy Ragnarok nearly as much as GoW4. This video perfectly lays out why the whole story felt "clunky" despite most individual scenes being fantastic. It's a shame, the game was so close to being amazing...
Happy to articulate it for you. Now you can link it to your friends/enemies and say, ‘this.’
@thegammelier yeah no these are petty nitpicks
The biggest problem I got with new God of War series is almost every cutscene and encounter feels like people in a greenscreen room arguing
That is actual true in the scenes around the tree House
Like the scenes eating in the table is so FAKE i can't buy Kratos is eating a sausage with a knife 😂
How did you miss the fact that the reason for Odin's visit is him noticing Atreus's search for Tyr?
Pretty sure I didn’t- but also, that’s off screen and before the game starts, so I’d still say it’s not a direct reason
The game should have started with Atreus and Sindri looking for him, then running into Freya, then her and Kratos fighting. Solves all my problems at once
@@thegammelier That's a nice idea but the version they went with works too. I feel like you were harsh on this game and kind of ignored the faults of the previous one. Liked the video though
Let me just say, I appreciate you disagreeing with me in a nice way. It’s refreshing, that’s for sure
This might be the most interesting and well made discussion on the topic, i didn't fall asleep while watching this so it must count for something. It's not because of short attention span, i've heard the Pale Blood Hunt and the 7 hour analysis, these 2 games are just so mid i can't stomach them. This is the only time (aside from "God Of War Case Study") where something interesting was brought up and new insight was gained. Very well made video dude
Cool breakdown, I too am a OG GOW fan. I think overall, I was disappointed with GOWR. But, it makes me love 2018 and the rest of the series even more, which I think is the biggest win this game could give .
Kratos didn't slay all the Olympian gods, I'm sure Aphrodite is alive somewhere, I mean he did slay her but he didn't SLAY her you know
._.
Or Artemis
This game has me so conflicted; individual scenes in vitro feel well written and poignant, but together, the game feels hollow. There’s so much context and story missing. The narrative is disjointed, the build up to Ragnarok just isn’t there. It really just feels like the entire third game got cut, and crammed into the final 3 hours of this one. Man, that hurts. 2018 was and is a masterpiece, and playing this one only reminds me of what could have been.
This game reminds me of the last jedi for some reason. It’s all over the place and seems rushed
2:50 can’t believe you forgot the most
Important aspect of these things, Kratos never wanted to be god of war and just wanted to not suffer from Greek tragedy PTSD from killing his family, then Zeus kills him for supporting mainly the Spartans even if the Spartans are the ones mainly worshipping him and because he is destined to kill him. That leads Kratos to killing Zeus and the gods that got in his way to Zeus.
Just finished the game a week ago and for some reason the more I sit with the game, the more it bugs me.
I feel like the story they are trying to tell isnt bad, just executed poorly, but it can be fixed and add deeper meaning and context if they added a few new lines or even flip around some events. E.G. Freya's arc
I felt like she was done dirty in the game, easily forgives after setting her free. What i believe would add more meaning to her character and made her change so better if she made it clear when she meets Atreus again that she states "Do not hold hate for you Atreus. You wasn't the one that snapped his neck and took my one chance to set things right. You were just a kid. I fear you'll turn into next".
So you set up she does not hate Atreus, only Kratos and fears he'll turn into his father. Then you move it so when Artuse comes back from ironwood, he just goes back to the house instead of the fight with Freya. kratos and Atreus still fight and Atreus runs away. Keep playing as him and doing his story, but when we cut back to Kratos he is looking for Atreus in midgard. though everyone believes he run off to Odin like he implied, Kratos believes in a small hope he isn't. So worried for his son, he is looking all over for him. But because of that Freya shows up, trying to kill Kratos once again. Fight happens, Kratos breats her, can kill her but doesn't, Freya makes a comment how the kid isn't with him and he screams back that Odin took him. Freya for once in the game in the game is taken aback by it and comfused on how to feel. One hand she hates Kratos for what he did, but hates Odin way more, but even more what he did to her and her son. And is now scared of what he'll do to Atreus. Freya offers a rocky peace to get the kid nack, only if Kratos sets her free, but she makes ot very clear that shes doing it for the boy, not Krato, and even after they find him she still plans on killing Kratos. Then what you said about the freya should happen, that her seeing herself kill her som should be the part where she doesnt forgive, but accepts Kratos for did.
This could probably be better, but again the story told feels like it changes the characters for events to happen, instead of making the actions and feelings of the characters control the story. Add a few lines or move some events around and the story is better. I loved 2018, I wanted to love this too, but the story felt messy, like they tried to ram 2 games into one.
Ingrid should've returned to Atreus and been used to kill Odin. Drop Frer from the story.
P.S. Kratos did nothing wrong in this game, he was just surrounded by stupid people.
Hey that video was really good! Why does this guy have so few subscribers?
Good work, duder!
Brother, if I knew the answer to that, I’d be at 100k by now
"Bow to your queen " is one of the cringiest lines in all of gaming
Real ngl
“Bow to your goddess!”
Would’ve felt more natural.
Freya really went on her monologue phase
@@DanialTarkiThat at least is a little bit better than " Bow to your queen" imao.
Mimir complaining about you choking out Heimdall was a beyond jarring cognitive dissidence. I refuse to believe the line was what was intended for that scene. The reason being is you fight wolvers in this mission. To which you rip a wolvers bottom jaw and the front of its chest off. Slow choking (no more pain only dreams now) Heimdall to death is the most tame kill in the whole game!
Ikr? I was hoping that Kratos would go full berserk killing everything/everyone like he used to in the old games. And that line when Kratos and Atreus are in helheim “I’ve been returning to my old ways” was such bullshit
I really appreciate this, I felt really empty about the conclusion of ragnarok and I really couldn't articulate why was it so. There was an absurd amount of praise talking about how this was the perfect conclusion to the entirety of GOW. Came out of it feelin really disappointed with both the spectacle and the narrative. The worst thing was that all the build up with lore and the characters felt thrown aside for somthing messy and half baked. How ragnarok was the ultimate war between gods. The world serpent and thor having a battle so intense it ripped through space time. Kratos's death. The fucking mask. A whole bunch of loaded guns that never got to fire.
You can tell they didn’t fire them on purpose, subverting expectations, but normally when my expectation is subverted I’d hope it’s replaced with something better…
Personally I like to compare GoW Ragnarok to The Last Jedi, both seem to ignore or mistreat a lot of setup of the previous entry because the new guy in charge (I dont care if he has been with the team for a long time, that arguably makes it worse) wanted to do his own thing and not an actual sequel to satisfy the people invested in its world and story. The fact Ragnarok itself, this End of the World event is such a disappointing nothingburger after the story dragged its feet getting there makes it imo a bad GOD OF WAR game. How did we go from the spectacle of GoW3 to this? Even GoW 2018 had way better feeling fights.
20:12 people only said they hated it because most gow players think the franchise's core is to make a game that has cool visuals, satisfying gamepley and good actors.
What is the franchise's core?
@@frankkennedy6388 you think I'd have all the answers as a commenter?
@@doctormahrio5226 I just wanted to hear your opinion. That's all.
@@frankkennedy6388 I say that because I've not played any other God of war games other than the newer ones.
And it's not like the franchise was unknown to me. I just only ever found interest in it when gow 4 came out.
@@frankkennedy6388 but if you really want what I think it is. Then it's a game that is surrounded by narrative function. And creates the game around the story.
Pretty much, Story comes first, game comes second.
yeah basically there is a masterpiece hidden in bad direction or bad writers (i read they got more than 1 thats why you get multiple ideas drop to trash)
my ultimate opinion: this game need it REALLY NEED IT a trilogy, not only by story but the world they wrote is so big literally 9 realms with 3-4 societies and the worlds in this game are absolute EMPTY not by gameplay but imagination or ideas (compare to 2018).
i feel other mistakes are some kind of DISNEYFICATION not not because of the ejem "characters" but the characters dialogue, the actual plot, the end battle kinda parodies ENDGAME OF THE AVENGERS THE HELL or even the fact all ALL THE BOAT STORIES ARE 3/4 OR HALF ABOUT JOKES ABOUT characters talking about "nothing" at all and the rest are actual information, life stories and idontknow references to other stories.
By the way the Tyr twist is not bad the real problem i see is how Odin is not a villain is not like THE BIG BOSS is just a dude searching a mask and fighting the Vanir gods bruh at least the Tyr plot should have consecuences like idontknow FOOD POISON OR MAYBE Freyr and Freya fighting because Tyr says something you know something BIG like Baldur destroying the portal and going to Hellheim you can feel the consequences not only in story (with the zeus ghost) but gameplay with literally a hell out a fights
Plus my other BIG BIG BIG issue is not just the "THENS" is how Loki goes for answers never ask SOMETHING TO ODIN EVEN USING THE MASK FOR BLACKMAIL, Kratos a god who never believe in destiny and "time goddesses" NOW GOES TO THE NORNS BECAUSE THE PLOT SAY IT, or again Kratos droping the "believe you heart boy" speech MIDDLE THE BATTLE OF RAGNAROK and all because some humans die yeah the same god who kinda kill half of the population and im talking because he kill Baldur and the 3 years winter full of canibals begin BECAUSE OF KRATOS THE HELL the writers never think all this stuff a little more
i feel dumb just by explaining how they are bad writers compare to the last game, even the VALHALLA DLC re-writes a lot A LOT OF THE OLD GAMES to make Kratos the good or the bad guy if the plot say it
43:14 In fact, she says that Forseti, Baldur's son, investigated and collected the evidence. A character who acts, has importance to the government of Asgard and yet we don't even see him. In addition to obviously having a narrative importance since he is related to most of the Norse gods we see in the game.
I love your use of the Mrs. Doutbfire scene for the climax twist, that was hilariously great! Kudos to you 👏 🙌
Made me laugh!
@@thegammelier That was my response. Denial, denial...anger! That's why it was so hilarious 🤣 Thanks for the breakdown. Having completed the game I knew something was off and empty about this game but couldn't understand why. Thanks for breaking down the "why". Disappointing story, good gameplay. Empty.
"How about this" *plays music from Yoshi's Island*. Well played sir.
Absolutely incredible video and script, I too have been subbed to jacob geller for years now, and I want you to know, this video is easily at the level of quality i hold some of his best video at, its that good, thank you for making good content. looking forward to seeing more content from you.
Thanks for watching and the amazing compliment that I can't hope to possibly live up to!
59:18 on the issue of being worshipped, I was expecting a reference to the beginning of God of War II. After ascending to the throne of the God of War by killing the previous God of War Ares in the first game, Kratos was indeed worshipped for a while mostly by his former spartan countrymen. As the new God of War, Kratos was said to have taken Sparta through numerous and glorious victories against their enemies and was worshipped for it, although it seems that he never really cared about humans in general. But neither did the other Gods in the Greek pantheon tbh.
This video is truly remarkable. It offers a super observant and honest critique of the game. It’s refreshing to see someone finally acknowledging all the flaws in this game.
I have very, VERY strong beliefs when it comes to self-preservation and the ethics of taking a life. And I have a sneaking suspicion that you and I think differently about this topic. It is then telling that, despite that probable divide, you still nail everything wrong with the Heimdall "payoff." You cut straight to the heart of it, and leave it bare for all to see. Every other part of that section is just icing on the cake.
So could you explain yourself further ?
@@marcocortes3279 The point was not to elaborate, so as to avoid contention, but I've thought about it more and I think I have a way of phrasing it that will still keep the temperature low. It seems like -propaganda- common sense states that a civilized society is one without force, but I think the opposite is true, a civilized society is one where force is abundant and readily available. It would be nice if all the people in your nation share a religion that keeps them cohesive and respectful, but how do you account for psychopaths or outsiders? It needs to be understood that force will be met with force. I believe that any form of unprovoked physical aggression means your life is forfeit. If you break into someone's house, they should not have to divine your intent or check you for weapons, you're dead. If you punch someone and they pull out a gun? 100% justified. If I remember correctly, knives are considered lethal even at a range of up to 10 feet (and that is for professionally trained police officers, so civilians should have a larger window). If someone makes an actionable threat on the life of your child? It could not be more cut and dried.
To be fair to Gammelier, I'm assuming he's a bit of a lib (he does drink microbrews, after all). I feel pretty safe in that assessment since he seems more conciliatory when discussing Heimdall's death, while I simply couldn't stop laughing at how ham-fisted the narrative was. Isn't threatening children and small animals supposed to be the nadir of villainous actions? And we're supposed to be conflicted about the death of such a person? It was absolutely ridiculous.
Am glad you took the time to elaborate this much, i wanted to understand you more and now i do. About heimdall it is true that his death scene was supposed to be that dark moment for kratos but as i share your opinion on self defence i tought about what happened as kratos doing the good thing once again. Never in one scene between 2018 gow or ragnarok i saw old kratos coming out, he wasnt even there. new kratos was afraid of his past all the time but he already changed. old kratos was never going to come out and never did.
PD: What i mean is, kratos internal conflict seems to exist and be a big deal but in the end you realize how controled kratos was, that means, his conflict was just fear. He was never going to return to his old ways. Specially after stating in the last game how he was free of his past now.
All right, I'll watch this again. You convinced me.
But in all seriousness I am really confused by the accolades that this game got. I'm going through my second replay right now and it is nowhere near as good as the first. Their entire portions of the game that I wish I could skip. So many parts of the game that are simply tunnels you walk through with a few battles on each end that exist only to allow characters to deliver dialogue.
I don't think time will be as kind to this game as God of war 2018. I think it's inferior and almost every single aspect except maybe gameplay variety.
Oof, god speed, friend, I don’t have the strength for a second playthrough. Maybe in a few years and now knowing what it is ahead of time, I’ll be able to appreciate it on its own terms
Only just finished it after not getting back to its since its release. Was very disappointed with the Ragnarok "war" at the end. I mean who did they lose in this war? Brok and Freyas annoying brother? Heavy losses indeed. I was honestly expecting massive consequences for all and i really expected Odin to have more up his sleeve than pretending to be Tyr.... Anyway great spectacle throughout but very safe and disappointing story. Im gonna get cracking on Valhalla and see what thats like when i get a chance. Nice vid bro.
Great analysis, and i love the Golden Path in the background :^)
I'm gonna frame it, someday
This game is so gassed up, it is insane.
44:53 this could've been done a bit better if Sindri gave Atreus the teleportation thingy just in case, when he'd wanted to visit Freya, near the beginning of the game but he wouldn't ultimately use it, saving it for a worse situation instead
This game is very similar to Batman Arkham Knight for me. VEEEERY similar.
Both are games that I were actively anticipating which is very rare for me.
Both had a fantastic previous installment that is in my top 10 of all time.
Both are games I replay OFTEN because I love the actual gameplay and side content.
And both are games that I always feel frustrated about while playing them, Knight a bit less so (I think acceptance has kicked in.
They have very similar story and structure issues and both take important and compelling set ups from the previous games and basically does nothing with them. Both feel tonally off from the previous game and the characters act weird, to a point where you can't imagine the same characters interacting in the previous game. (Can you picture Magni Modi or Baldur in the same UNIVERSE as Odin, Thor and Heimdall? I can't)
Both games have terrible pacing and a lot of "and now we need this, but first we need this, and then they go here"
Both have rushed conclusions and both have really bad twists
The previous two Arkham games were written by Paul Dini, a seasoned professional, Knight was written by Rocksteady's own team. They did a fine job on the moment to moment stuff but didn't bring it all home like Dini would-- same as Ragnarok under Williams. Fine moment to moment, much less so as a grander tale.
@@thegammelier precisely. Even Origins feels like it was written with a clear vision of what the story should be, it's different from the other two but in a good way.
Arkham Knight feels like the Devs wanting to make a GAME that catered to larger general audience, while Asylum and City felt like they were made for Batman fans.
Same with GoW2018 to Ragnarök, Ragnarök feels like a GAME while 2018 feels like a tale. The Marvel quips and overdramatic scenes of people explaining how they feel is a large contributor
@@thegammelier It's weird tho. Both are games I LOVE replaying, so I can't hate them as much as I claim. I guess FRUSTRATED is the word. Both games have amazing, fluid gameplay but there's a lot of meandering in between the cool gameplay sections.
I think there are some things that are not explored in the video. The fact that the mask is just a useless mcguffin, for example. Or even the fact that during the entire game, they try to build up Kratos' death. You play the game "knowing" that Kratos will die in the end, and he is accepting that, but in the end he doesn't die. There are so many plot conveniences and contradictions. I just don't know what the writers were drinking when they made this game.
10:40 in the Hellheim part this two has a conversation about Odin
You talking about Atreus and Thrud talking about Odin being a bad person? Pretty sure I addressed this in the video but I'm not sure if that's what you're referring to
@@thegammelier You said that atreus and thrud pick up a conversation that happened off screen about how bad Odin is but they had that convo in helhime before freeing the big dog
@@rafaelgrigoryan3785 yeah, that’s the one I’m referring to, it starts with them referencing a previous off screen conversation they had
@@thegammelier I guess I missed that
Wow, you're the first person I've seen on youtube to do a really good video game story breakdown. Do you have any recommendations of books to read on writing? I would be every greatful
Oh, I see. The quotes are from the books.
Very good video, I too found Ragnarok's story very dissapointing and you put it very well into words. I will have to defend the thor thrud conflict though. Mimir and Atreus talk about Thor and his family, and they come to the conclusion that Thor in his drunken rage beat up his son in the first game, so his wife gave him an ultimatum to stop drinking and be better. This was in a side quest, so missable, but I actually like when side content gives meaningful context to the overall narrative
Thanks for the response! Yes, I must have missed that, as I admittedly did not do all the side content, though I’d still much rather have had that relationship more fleshed out on screen between the two of them and not mentioned off handedly by a third character
That's going from "not mentioned" to "told but not shown." A step up but still not very good.
to be fair, i think the reason we don’t see the conversation between Odin and Atreus is that we are supposed to question whether or not Atreus is being 100% honest with Kratos. Later on, Kratos asks Mimir what Odin and Atteus talked about, and Mimir said he wasn’t able to hear all of it. So it was an intentional decision that had a good reason, not bad storytelling.
A decision with good intentions can still not be the right choice to make, y’know? It’s not like the audience has any doubt Atreus is loyal, only Kratos, but my point was less about that one specific scene and more how the one camera take affects all the rest of the storytelling
That mission in Ironwood is really something else….i can’t believe it’s a thing.
That is reason why i Dont start NG+. If i have to do it again i would throw my gamepad into tv and then tv and console though the window
Od course beside that , why would i want to do that bad campaign again
It's not that bad, it seems boring on paper but like, when you play it, it's not as boring, you're still focusing in the game and such
@@duckking404 problem is that when you see flaws and how better are others games you cannot unseen that and that change the experience. It is always feeling "its ok ,but it could be much better"
@@adamgoralski193 yeah true, I suppose so, idk why they made the mission slow and stuff
I hate how Freya thinks Atreaus will just stand by and let her kill his Dad.
Like, what purpose does killing Kratos, do? Shes not too keen on being around him until Kratos says he killed his previous family.
And unlike Freya, who has years of experience, a living, breathing house, and magic on her side, Loki realistically had a shack in the middle of the unprotected woods, with a couple wolves and his bow.
If Kratos was Killed, she was gonna be indirectly/directly responsible, for the death of Loki too.
Freya is stupid.
The Yoshi’s Island music was, indeed, the move 😎
27:41 Actually I think this was a subtle way to show Odins manipulation of Atreus. Odin is one of the smartest god alive and Is all seeing with eyes and ears everywhere, however he pretends to not know Heimdall switched sides to make himself seem more humble and funny.
It's possible! I don't think that was the writer's intent, but I think they'd be more than happy to accept that as so
Thanks for watching, by the way
Yes that was the point 100 percent.
I don't understand how you can unironically play the scene of Freya literally saying "I AM ANGRY!" as a way to soften your criticism. That scene is a complete joke from a writing perspective. Like, actual parody tier.
In the part of the video called narrative imperative, how come atreus searching for tyr isn’t enough to answer why Odin and Thor come knocking at the door? I understand that it’s not as much of a direct link as kratos chopping down the tree opening them up to invaders, but it’s still a link that could be used to explain why Odin and Thor decide to come.
Thanks for the video. That was not only entertaining, but also educating
1:41 …
You used the Gabby Jay sound from Super Punch Out, didn’t you?
Yes indeed. His name kinda sounds like "Gammelier"
@@thegammelierLOL I knew it! Great video, man. My biggest gripe about this game was how boring all of the Atreus parts were. That’s the only thing that keeps me from replaying it
I just hate Atreus. He was kind of cute and novel in 2018. But in this title it was agonizing to choke down his segments. I found nothing particularly interesting about his development. I didnt "connect" with him in a way that seemingly many people did. His existence undermines the entire franchise imo. Kratos got put on the backburner for no good reason. Its not god of war anymore - it's something else. The current culture has a habit of sprinking pixie dust on everything and turning it into my little pony.
Watched the hole thing, and I gotta say...
Ragnarok was useless.
Vallhala had a better use in Kratos' story than the whole game we got.
Valhalla’s…fine, but it’s the same character arc we’ve now watched for the third time. I’m over it
The clip in the comment about Freya, what video is that?
Also great video! It should have 100k views at least.
Thanks! Which clip are you talking about? Need a bit more to go off of
@ There is a clip on a commenters theory about why Freya forgave Kratos so quickly. Sounds like a clip from someone else’s video.
That’s still me. The video was originally three parts released over a few months, so I was able to address some comments made to part one way after the fact
@ Oh, the audio and the voice sounded different to me lol. Thanks for clearing that up.
Again great video, it got me to sub!
@ thanks! It was only my fourth(?) video so I was still (and am) learning a lot
This game is the disappointment of a lifetime for me
Ditto
Game is still siq just could’ve been better. Something like Rise of Skywalker is infinitely more disappointing because it just completely undoes everything that was good in the original trilogy like Vader’s sacrifice. Ragnorok didn’t make 2018 GOW any worse, if anything it made it better
@@dws0828
It made 2018 infinitily worse and rendered it useless.
@@fatos342 Yeah, that's the sad part. GOW 2018 was praised for how much it sets up plot points for Ragnorok...but Ragnarok didn't deliver on or even address some of those things. We didn't even find out who blew the horn. :'( So in retrospect, some of these plot points weren't even planned.
I mean the “game” was great and fun. Just the story was just mid
Some of your examples of "unbroken cause and effect" can only be such if you don't consider the events of the previous game. An example is when freya attacks kratos. There's a reason she's attacking. I agree the original god of war was written better.
You miss my point: it’s not that there’s no reason, because obviously there is if you take the first game into account. It’s that there’s no reason in *this* story why they happen. Think of stories as self contained things, each one needs its own reasons for events to happen, otherwise it feels unmotivated.
Yes, but why NOW? Why at THIS moment?
You and the people who liked your comment don't really understand narrative.
@@thegammelierthat's such a strange point to make, I understand its important in context of creating a story using a strict framework. But I have no idea how that reasonable inference of freya's rage in the previous game, coupled with dialogue stating that there has been multiple attempts. Your 'but' and 'therefore' criticism seems to work in a linear framework expecting an event right before to lead to the next. I don't know about you but I feel fine triaging plot threads, and seeing where they lead. Ragnarok can create a reasonable but and therefore thread if you agree to separate parts of the plot, and agree there is nuance to why things are happening. Sure it is not ultra concrete as the 2018 more linear focused storyline, but then again I never wanted it to be, I wanted to things to have varied a effects I wanted to know the reasoning for actions in the game to be varied and complicated. But I feel like you discount them too quickly, without feeling a perfect causal link. I can understand that frustration, but the reason I still find myself liking the story is that I'm perceiving it differently each time revisit it. Gow 2018 I understood first time through and to be honest each time through however enjoyable it will always diminish for me. But for raganrok (excluding slower sequences like ironwood), I feel like I'm understanding the nuances of why the story would have played out this way. And honestly much of my disappointment with game wasn't with much of the first 80% it was literally ragnarok being too short too small a scale, and frankly lacking the grit, of the fights with garm and thor1. I honestly think if surtr, fenrir, jorm and the warring armies, had an darker atmosphere of war and death, I think people would be more satisfied with game because there is a greater payoff after experience a behemoth of a plot.
@@aryanullal2877The raggy battle IMO, had a pretty dark atmosphere and there was a good chunk of spectacle in it, I think it more so has to do with the camera than anything tbh as you have to pay attention to what’s happening around you compared to a fixed camera angle(luckily I’m a pro at the game so it’s easy for me).
I enjoyed ragnarok, but i agree that it felt disjointed. Getting the armies together should've been many missions, and the ragnarok event should've been much bigger and longer than it was. Had fun, but i would've preferred that they did one more game in the norse Saga to make ragnarok the cataclysmic event it should've been.
1:07:00
I have to admit I disagree with this point. I think as far as the point "vengeance does not make you whole again" goes, this is one of the better instances where it happens in this story. Sindri, even after taking his vengeance against Odin, is broken, bitter and seemingly abandons even his home. He full-on dives into the pit of despair. Every other character had lots taken from them by Odin, and yet all of them chose not to go down the path of vengeance and are better off for it. The one character we see actually indulge in these darker urges - critically, AFTER Odin had been banished into a marble and was no longer a threat to anyone, and AFTER the point about how futile revenge is had been made repeatedly - is immediately punished for it. He chose to indulge in rage and hate over acceptance and forgiveness.
Brok alerady WAS dead. He died many years ago, and Sindri's haphazard attempt at bringing him back from the dead left his soul incomplete, which is the very reason that Brok's soul cannot reach the light of Alfheim. In a way, the one that TRULY killed Brok WAS Sindri, not too dissimilar from how Freya was ultimately the one who killed Baldur in the long run. His inability to let go is what breaks him.
The one thing I dislike about this is how much blame he pins on Atreus for this. Like, yes, he invited Tyr into their home, and he tried to play a long-con on Odin which obviously failed, but how is this Atreus' fault more than anyone else's? Nobody saw Odin's deception coming, and Atreus did everything in his power to try and deescalate the situation between the Aesir and Kratos & friends. It just feels like something that they didn't actually put into the script and then didn't consider.
Love the Perfect Dark reference haha
S'one of the best
Huge balls to drop this before a TLOU 2 video. Many of the problems people have with that story are in here. Cant wait to hear you tackle it...
Want an idea of where I’ll go? Check out my previous video on Abby’s side of the story. Spoilers: I really like the game, warts and all
@@thegammelierOdd that you like a game pretty much constructed of plot holes.
@@billjacobs521 My feelings about plot holes are perfectly summed up by the below. Does TLoU2 have a lot of warts? Hell yeah it does, but it lands a lot more than it misses for me.
th-cam.com/video/j9HivyjAKlc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=9Jx3hdpGCrDFEb1f
@kostasspirou1010 Then you must not know that characters acting entirely out of character for the sake of the plot is also a plot hole.
Considering that most of the supposed "characters acting out of character for the sake of the plot" in TLOU 2 people like tp bring up amounts to "Joel would never enter a safe house presided by people he doesn't know after saving one of theirs, he'd stay outside in minus 20 degrees, in the middle of a blizzard and with a whole ass horde of infected running through the area like a cautious smart person" I'm gonna go ahead and say no
I agree with your points in the video but you get a down vote for the censorship in the comments section brother. To steal a phrase... be better.
You haven’t seen the shit I have in this comment thread, so I respectfully disagree
On the part about the tree, Lokis handprints did put up a barrier that prevents those frozen zombie things from reaching their home, this is why when he becomes a bear and knocks down the tree they begin to attack
Yeah, I didn’t mention that in the video, mistake on my part-but I maintain it’s only really in here because it’s iconic from the first game. Odin and Thor can visit regardless (even if people theorize they snuck in once the barrier was down) and Freya attacks much later out of nowhere when the barriers are up. It’s inconsistent and imo ineffective storytelling
This is a great video
I just beat the game a few days ago. Felt like I wasted 40hrs . Gameplay was fun but wtf was that story. I immediately replayed GOW1 & damn, what a difference .
Yes. GoWR does have story problems: The story.
Hang on, hang on. That guy pointlessly jumped out of an aircraft to defend the team from a not necessarily deadly dragon, leading you to go rescue him on one of the largest, and most fruitful maps in the game.
Sure, having Mimir's favorite coffee mug fall overboard could have served the same function, but that guy was important, I tell ya.
Hrmmm…..
You’ve convinced me. I retract the whole video!
Another weird plot point for me was the scene when they group escapes on the flying boat. The random dude who got a whole dramatic scene that I was supposed to care about because of the dramatic music. Then you are given the boat but barely use twice after that.
His name was like Burger or something too lmao 🗿
Okay the Draupnir's purpose is something i agree on. It doesn't make sense how just an exploding spear can't be predicted by a guy who can predict your every move. But after he's first wounded it makes sense that his arrogance leads him to fight blindly causing his death
I thought the reason why they kept doing the trees with the hand prints was to keep Freya out, cause when she attacked them in the beginning and screamed and made everything start falling and crumbling towards them kratos said we’re almost to the stave and once they cross it it gets calm
Yeah, that’s the reason…but is it a good one? Good enough for the retread, good enough to start your new story with?
EDIT: Also, I forgot that Freya attacks Kratos within the tree line during her boss fight, so…she could just ignore the barrier all along?
Yeah, it’s called the protection stave. I don’t know how this Dingus didn’t realize that or at least didn’t feel it was necessary to mention. There are definitely problems with Ragnarok and its story, but he’s just being insufferable overdramatic douche.
@@thegammelierThey also explain that fimbulwinter breaks down magic but it's never stated that's the reason.
@@SourPatchPuss That would be you.
How in the everloving fuck do you not have way more subscribers? All of your videos, or at least the ones that I've seen, are very well edited and scripted. This channel, as long as it continuously uploads and continues with this quality, is a ticking time bomb to be catapulted into the youtube algorithm. 687 subs as I'm writing this, but it shouldn't be for long.
I’m stuck in small YT purgatory but I’ll keep pluggin’ away
@@thegammelierkeep it up man, very high quality content
@@thegammelieraye man I would LOVE to see you do this breakdown for spiderman
@@jav-y6q I might someday. I didn’t like Spider Man, I found the story very boring, so I’ve never beaten it. Fertile ground for a video essay
@@thegammelier definitely is I loved the breakdown of this and spiderman needs it
Can anyone also clue me in as to what made atreyus even consider that tyr might be alive and that'd be worthwhile to look for him? I'm in the middle of my second playthrough and I feel like this is a huge plot hole. He's presumed dead or heavily implied that he's dead in the last game so what would even give a traias the slightest suggestion that he was alive and in prisoned?
I think because of the hidden murals, right? He and Sindri had been searching them out for a while. I dunno, I could be mistaken. It’s really bad story structure to have had Sindri and Atreus searching for the murals before the story started in the first place. It’s very passive, even if having them do it beforehand sets up Kratos’ mistrust when he learns Atreus has been up to that
@@thegammelier maybe they implied it but it's definitely never explicitly stated. Very frustrating because that's one of the things that really starts the story off. I still just can't believe they messed it up so bad. People blame the fact that it was going to be three games and that they had to compress two games into one game. But they could have easily cut a lot of stuff and I chose not to. I don't know. Hopefully whatever game Corey barlog is working on now He won't just abandon (assuming it's a multi part story. ). He claimed to set up so much in 2018 and spoke about it so much. And then just dipped.
@@tbowne05
In the hidden prophecy of Skol and Hati he saw what he assumed to be Tyr leading the armies against Odin in Ragnarök.
So if he's gonna be around when Ragnarök happens that means he's alive.
@@fatos342 okay but if tyr is supposed to be dead why did he assume the figure he saw was tyr? From what I remember the figure shown was so generic looking (especially when you consider a turned out to be kratos) that it could have been anyone. Why did he think it was tyr if tyr was dead. This is like a whole chicken or the egg thing and I think is a major flaw in the story.
I thought he was just trying to find out more about the prophecy but Odin read it as trying to learn about Tyr’s location as he went to Tyr’s shrines to get the giant shrines. Only after Odin visits does Atreus think he is alive but that isn’t explained well in the game
This is such a great video. I just washed it a third time simply to enjoy the information on writing that you give.
Are you ever going to do a video on God of war 2018 or uncharted 4 (which you seem to think is the best game ever)?
I'm mustering up the courage to one day make that U4 video. I wanna do it justice and hit AAAAAAAAALL the talking points about why I think it's great. It'll probably be another 60 minute long video, and those sure take a long time to make.
@@thegammelier well I look forward to when it comes out. I'll definitely have to play it before watching the video though.
Hey man just finished watching your video and gotta say, it was incredible. Great Job and keep up the good work.
Now onto my problems with my story. I am nowhere as good as a story analytic like you but I gotta say a few things.
First, I think the story was too safe. All the bad guys die, the main characters live and the day is saved. I think many people overlook the problems in the story because it had a “good” ending. Now you compare Ragnarok with GOW 2018. I think it completed kratos and Atreus arcs. But the ending also had kratos killing Baulder in front of his Mom. Or look at the original trilogy where because of his vengeance, the entire Greek world was destroyed.
Second, this is my personal opinion, I think Kratos should not have a good ending where he lives happily ever after. Remember he destroyed the Greek world killing thousands of innocents. Just think how hard it would have hit if Kratos went back to his old ways killing everyone and starting Ragnarok to save his son, only for Atreus to hate him in the end. Or Atreus watching Kratos die and turning into a lying and manipulative being to destroy Odin’s family and starting Ragnarok. It would have hit much more harder that way then the way it is presented in this game.
Third, Freya’s arc makes no sense. She decided to kill Kratos, then decides to use him, and then work with him like him killing Baulder never happened. There was no resentment towards Kratos after that one cutscene where she forgives him for killing her son. Also coming to my first point, it was too safe. Again Kratos or Atreus having to kill Freya because she was blocking their path would have hit much more harder than say Brok’ s death.
Fourth, the character’s actions have no real consequences. They destroyed an entire relam, and how did it affect the other worlds? Nothing. Compare this with the original games and you will see what I am saying. Kratos killed the Gods and it destroyed the world and its magic along with it. Kratos again kills the Gods and nothing really happened. Kratos despite being driven by vengeance is a bad man. Sure the Greek Gods are not saints either but he does kill millions of innocents because of his actions.
Compare this with RDR2. Despite being a prequel to RDR1, it perfectly leaves where the original starts. And you look at Arthur’s story. He was a bad man. He killed a man for a few bucks and because of that he dies. But when he realise his end his near he decided to save John sacrificing himself and completing his arc. He changes in the end of the story, but that does not mean he doesn’t face his past consequences. The reason the ending hits so hard is because it’s more real than say him living happily ever after. He faces the consequences of his actions. He might be a good person in the end, but he cannot change his past which catches up with him. Or look at John where his vengeance allows pinkertons to know of his location, they use him, kill him which inturn has jack follow the same path as his father.
I think the game would have been much better of being 3 parts as originally intended. The ending just felt so rushed and the left a lot of things to just “and that just happened because we have to progress the story”.
I think points two and four would have been together. Sorry for stretching it out. I hope I am able to convey what’s in my mind.
Thanks for the kind words, and you make a lot of sense. I actually like the idea of Kratos truly going back to his old ways in order to save his son-- but the writers wanted happy endings, so that just wasn't in the cards.
Honestly I like atreus and kratos not sharing the revelation of kratos dying, yes they both know this, but it's knowledge that would really hurt the other, in the end it would make them closer, but they don't know that, it makes then seem more human and that's something many games really can't replicate, mostly because if they do these types of criticism arise, I, for once, really like how god of war turns these characters suprisingly human and that refusal to share what they know, knowledge that they both know and can work together to solve, drifting them apart due to misscomunication, they might be gods but they still have humanity, they mess up, they misscomunicate and I really REALLY love that
This was a very good and informative video. Subscribed.
I’m glad this video exists to put words to how I felt about Ragnarok. I felt like an insane person while playing it, how was it reviewing this well when the story felt so off? I enjoyed my time with Ragnarok, but it fell far short of my expectations.
Same! Despite how much I beat on it in the video, I DID enjoy my time with it. It just wasn't 2018
I didn't know the sonic forces cycle would happen 5 years later