Is God equally active in causing the salvation of the elect and the damnation of the reprobate?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2024
- God is in charge of both salvation and damnation, but He does not exercise them in the same manner. From one of our live Ask Ligonier events, W. Robert Godfrey corrects a common misconception about predestination.
If you have a biblical or theological question, just visit Ask.Ligonier.org to ask your question live online. ask.ligonier.org/
#AskLigonier
No doctrine in the whole Word of God has more excited the hatred of mankind than the truth of the absolute sovereignty of God. The fact that “the Lord reigneth” is indisputable, and it is this fact that arouses the utmost opposition in the unrenewed human heart.
-Spurgeon
I would expect attacks from outside the church, but nowadays the most vigorous attacks are coming from within, or at least from people claiming to be within. It is reaching a crescendo, at least online.
I've been hated by other "Christians" They've literally thought it their duty to hate and destroy me for that doctrine but no matter how hard I've tried to make it not it's just not possible the scriptures are what they are and that's unchangeable,His sovereignty is an extremely important attribute to me!!
@ Dylan
Amen, Dylan, and LORD bless you, brother, for giving us HIS TRUTH!
Dylan Cla Hang in there, Brother. And be encouraged - your opposition is always outnumbered by you + the heavenly host that supports you.
I never knew that there was such a hostile opposition from fellow Christians to the doctrine of God's Sovereignty in regards to salvation..Satanic..
Judas was not given the opportunity to repent like Peter was...
Precisely. It was pre-arranged and predetermined
Whatever doctrine it is, in my most humble opinion, everything is pre-destined. The past, present, and future were already written before God even created Earth.
THAT IS JUST PLAIN DUMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WAIT, LET ME CHECK SOMETHING;
Eph. 1.11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him *who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will* :
1.12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
emphasis mine [KJV]
WELL, LOOKEY THAR - YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GOOD POST JON, BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Divine determinism. We can just call it as it is. John Piper says God predetermined everything, including our own besetting sins (which is a heresy).
So the reason why reprobates choose sin is because they have reprobate nature right? And who made them reprobate is God right? Somebody please explain, I'm trying to understand this.
What a wonderful sincere question. I think you’ve assessed it rightly, my friend. Check out Soteriology 101 on TH-cam. There are other theologian scholars and other ways (and more Biblical and correct ways I would humbly argue) to understand these verses and Roman 9 and Ephesians 1, etc. Regardless, in all we do, let us show charity and grace to those who are our fellow brothers and sisters. Blessings, my friend~✨
@@elaineauo Thank you so much Elaine, that's so very kind of you. Yes, I believe in all of what you said as well. Blessings!
@@liveforjesus5005 have a wonderful day!
God didn't make the reprobate a reprobate. God made all things good, and man was decieved by Satan in the garden to disobey God.
Even though Adam sinned, we are held accountable for our own sin. (We in Adam sinned). That's why we need a new representative in Jesus Christ to be saved.
God ordained that sin come into the world, yet He is not the author of sin. Mankind sinned, not God.
God ordained for the fall to happen so Jesus could come and save His people, God is not the author of sin. Man sinned.
God ordained certain people to be saved and other not to be saved. Those who He saved are given salvation, those who are not saved are left to their own sinful devices.
The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. Proverbs 16.4
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth." ... Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? Romans 9.17,21,22
seems active to me
hondobondo, you quoted proverbs 16:4; are you implying God predetermined everything and than He made the wicked too?
You alluded to Rom9 and equated it to individual salvation as Calvin taught God predestined some to eternal life but others to damnation. That is a heretical teaching as it dosen't aligned with God's character and thus the bible too.
Rom9 is about God choosing nations for the bloodline to bring ultimately His Son and it has nothing to do with choosing some and damning others. Rom9:12 said the elder serve the younger and the choosing of God was for service and not meant for salvation. Calvinists used rom9 to fit into their theory of TULIP which is man's false doctrine.
@Maria Hilton Sorry, your notion to me is unbiblical, as some believed God predestinates some to eternal life and other to eternal condemnation. This is a man-made belief system which is called Calvinism which is no where taught in the bible.
They believed only "the ELECT" that is those chosen of God could only be saved. But the Bile for example John 3:16 stated that "whosoever" believed in Christ has everlasting life and will never perished. Ephesians 2:8 stated we are saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ. John 1:12 but as many as (whosoever) received Him, to them given the power to be sons of God. There are many more verses I can still quote but there is no where stated in the bible that affirmed God have his chosen ones for salvation already. I noticed those who are not matured in the bible are normally the ones that were deceived by the teachings of Calvinism. Always have in your mind that salvation is conditional on your believing in Christ and not on the choice of God because He shows no partiality.
God created evil Isaiah 45:7 KJV Amos 3:6 KJV
@@93556108 Read Isaiah 45:7 KJV Amos 3:6 KJV
@@93556108 Read John 17:9 KJV
He may not give "the gift" of retrobation to sinners, but by your own definitions these people (without God's grace) can do NOTHING but sin. They are not rejecting the Word of God, because they can't HEAR the word of God, according to Calvinism. So God is to blame for sinners going to hell .. because He did not want them. He "passed them over." That's a terrible view of God IMHO. That is not a just God, but a cruel one.
From what I can see in scripture, God was active when softening Pharaoh's heart with the plagues. When He was kind to Pharaoh and stopped, He hardened Pharaoh's heart by letting him have what his heart wanted. Some verses said that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, some say Pharaoh hardened his own heart. I think it's possible that both were true each time at the same time.
It's easier to think in causative language. God is the ultimate Cause of everything that happens, His decree is the primary Cause. In the scriptures, Pharaoh's heart was hardened by God in this sense. God does employ secondary causes to accomplish His will. In this case, Pharaoh's own sins and the stirring of devils in his heart are the secondary causes. The secondary causes are immediately antecedent to Pharaoh's sinful deeds in a logical way. Hence, Pharaoh was judged for his sins and was described to be hardening his own heart.
@@CWJ0725 Thank you for your response.
The LORD has made all things for Himself; yea even the wicked for the day of evil. Proverbs. There is no reason to walk on eggshells. God says right here that he actively creates the Wicked the same way he creates his New Creations in Christ. Deal with it.
Exactly
@@patrickkircher145 I am glad somebody out there sees profound truth
@Rbl7132 yes, you are right. I could not see it anymore clearly! Unfortunately, I am not to be a beneficiary of the design, but quite the opposite. A vessel of inconcievable wrath.
@@patrickkircher145 Are you saying that you know what God's destiny for you is? Did I hear you condemn yourself?
@patrickkircher145 You make a common error that those who are offended by the doctrine of election make.
Prior to your regeneration, You are not given the knowledge Of whether you are a vessel of mercy, or a vessel of wrath...
Also you are not your own judge. God is the judge. If he has chosen before time began to place all your sins upon the Lord Jesus Christ, It will certainly be manifested in due time effectually by God.... If however, you remain in your sin. Unrepentant... And die in unbelief... Then that will have its result.... But you cannot presuppose that you know these things!!! Your command is to repent. Believe the gospel, be baptized and follow hard after the Lord, And seek his mercy.
I respectfully opposed to your teaching of, I quote "God is in charge of both salvation and damnation".
Consider the ramifications of this logic: If God has predetermined the outcome of all things, He is responsible for everything that happens. This logic makes Him responsible for sin because He predetermined that Lucifer and a third of Heaven’s angels would sin and be cast out of Heaven. Then, He forced Adam and Eve to sin; and to save certain people from death, He forced Jesus to die on the cross. This logic makes God the Creator of sorrow, sickness, and death. Worse yet, He is the source of dishonesty, hatred, cruelty, and sexual immorality because these behaviors exist in many people! If all of these dreadful things about God are true, then predetermining who will go to Heaven and burn in Hell is not out of character. Moreover, if these things are true, then God is the greatest liar in the universe. He claims to be a God of love, He claims that righteousness and justice are the foundations of His throne, but these words are lies if God created some people to end up in Heaven and others to end up in Hell.
Further God is not a liar. He is righteous and does not force anyone into sin. If He did such things, no one would want to spend eternity with Him. There is a simple solution to harmonizing predestination with free will. Knowing the outcome is not the same thing as forcing the outcome. God has always had an “elect” on Earth who are appointed to serve as trustees. His chosen people have the task of distributing the love of the Father to His beneficiaries. “But you [believers in Christ] are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you [as trustees of His gospel] may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you [Gentiles] were not a people [you were not a chosen nation like old Israel], but now you are the people of God [as believers in Jesus you are the new Israel]; once you had not received mercy [such favor], but now [through Jesus] you have received mercy [astonishing favor].” (1 Peter 2:9,10)
No one chooses to be born in Adam. Romans 9 says that some were PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION. And [Pro 16:4 NKJV] 4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, EVEN THE WICKED FOR THE DAY OF DOOM. Our choice to sin is the result of our inherited sin nature in Adam.
The name is Yah
Yes judge be judge
For a calvinist, this is weak
WHOSOEVER WHOSOEVER WHOSOEVER! /s
@The Pilgrim you might want to find out what /s means.
He witholds grace from the reprobate from eternity past.
*EQUAL ACTIVITY IS A RED-HERRING*
John Calvin
-quote
"If what I teach is true, that those who perish are *DESTINED* to death by the eternal *GOOD PLEASURE* of god - though the reason does not appear - then they are *NOT FOUND* but *MADE* worthy of destruction.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121)
Let [X] = *DESTINED* to death and *MADE* worthy of destruction - by the eternal *GOOD PLEASURE* of god:
1) Equal Activity is *NOT* a NECESSARY DIFFERENTIATOR for [X] vs [NOT X]
2) The divine will *IS* a NECESSARY DIFFERENTIATOR for [X] vs [NOT X]
3) The divine decree prior to the creation of humanity *IS* a NECESSARY DIFFERENTIATOR for [X] vs [NOT X]
4) The divine pleasure *IS* a NECESSARY DIFFERENTIATOR for [X] vs [NOT X]
We don't choose to be born sinners
We don’t choose to be born, either! SMH! Isn’t this just bizarre? People fighting over the right doctrine, having their own interpretation of the Bible, etc. The strangest thing is people that believe this stuff are usually very prim and proper or angry and hateful people because other people don’t believe, not know, but believe the same thing about the man in the Sky that’s always been around, can do what he wants to when he wants to, had a failed plan with Adam and Eve, then Noah, then Soddom and Gomorrah, then he sent a human version of himself to live a perfect life of 33 years only to return sometime in the future. That’s what’s strange!
@@jondstewart There are verses that deny the resurrection doctrine Job 7:9 KJV Job 14:12 KJV Job 20:7 KJV Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 KJV Isaiah 26:14 KJV
@@gustavmahler1466
SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE CHILD OF SATAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
?
What is he talking about?
Does he hear himself talking? Smh
🙄
This guy needs to read his books less and his Bible more. No where does the Bible ever say that God wills anyone to be dammed to hell, but it does clearly say that God desires all to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4.
Dan Starling Messiah made salvation available to all. But, it is up to us whether we accept that gift of mercy and if we do, what we do with it. Are we willing to get off of our own throne of self-sovereignty and submit to His law (Torah) in order to transform our hearts and minds to become more like the character of Messiah? Or will we be stubborn (stiff-necked) or rebellious and refuse our Creator’s blessings and instead invite the curses? Each one of us must walk out our salvation in fear and trembling.
@@BonnieBlue2A Both of you are wrong. You definitely need to watch more of these videos until you learn something.
@Eric
Amen Eric! To our LORD GOD be all the Glory in HIS Sovereignty in HIS own created world!
@@BonnieBlue2A Maybe this will help :)
th-cam.com/video/y2VAT5phffc/w-d-xo.html
Jeff Durbin has a great series available on TH-cam, from Apologia Studios. You can also one or several if the many debates between James White and nearly incoherent Arminians/Free-Willers (Leighton Flowers, Dave Hunt, Steve Tassi, anyone from the NAR or Bethel Church).
The teachings of NOT keeping scripture in context...I wonder how many of your children will bring glory to God but dying and going to hell...no need to pray for them, God has already made that choice. They don’t have too.
rangersNHL, The Reformed baptize their infants on the basis of the Abrahamic Covenant. This promise is to you and your children. Baptism is the into the visible church ( it is not baptismal regeneration). The parents and the congregation BOTH make vows to pray for this child, and come alongside the parents and the child, to raise the little one up in the admonition of the Lord.....and that the child would come to a day of making a profession of faith.
Carmen Siekierke i follow you, but the only problem is that it is not scriptural. There is nothing about baptism and the Abrahamic covenant being the same thing nor even close to the same thing. It still does not address the issue in Reformed theology--God has already decreed who will be saved. It’s done! It’s finished! There is no need to baptize them, or pray for them. God will not “change” his mind. I realize that some will say that prayer and preaching is the means that God will use to save them. So once again Reformed theology has a contradiction. It depends on US! According to Reformed theology Man has no part in Salvation. Salvation is all of God. I agree that salvation is all of God, but if mankind could not choose to be saved there would be no true accountability. I know this sounds harsh but When those children stand before Christ and hear the words, Depart from me for I never knew you.” There should be no tears of sorrow, but only rejoicing because God has received all glory. This is why over the years reformed theology has risen and sunk low. When people read the Bible it does not add up.
@@rangersNHL Lots of issues with your comment. "God will not "change" His mind." God is the Creator. Humans are the creature. God speaks in anthropomorphic language. His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways. Of course, God does not change His mind, and God does not repent. But from a human way of thinking......it looks like He does. "There is no need to baptize them, or pray for them." Ranger, that's "hyper-Calvinism"......and there are very few hyper-Calvinists. The New Covenant is not a continuation of the Old Covenant ( Mosaic Covenant). The New Covenant is the promise of the Abrahamic Covenant.
Prayer and preaching of the Word of God is the chosen method in which He saves His people. Yes, God USES His people. How will they hear without a preacher?
The real issue is the ordo salutis ( the order of salvation). God regenerates a dead, fallen sinner....gives them a new heart and new desires. Then He gives them the gift of faith. Through faith ( and not works) the regenerated believer turns from their sin ( repents) and places their full trust in the sinless life of Jesus and His work on the cross for their salvation. Only a regenerated believer can "repent and believe." Ranger...God doesn't have to save anyone. But the truth is, if He doesn't chose to regenerate that spiritually dead sinner....it will never happen.
@@carmensiekierke3579 Thanks for your response but you still haven't addressed the issue within Calvinism. John Calvin said, "God preordained, for his own glory and the display of His attributes of mercy and justice, a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation." This is the basic root of Calvinism. God has already decided, according to Calvin.
I am not going to discus dispensations or covenant theology---it does not pertain to the issue at hand.
You mentioned that it is Hyper-Calvinism NOT to make preparation and pray and preach. What if no one preaches? Will they be saved? I know that you will say that they will be lost. But, what if they are a part of God's elect? And please do not refer me back to the "mysteries" of God----Because it's not a mystery.
But God does change His mind. In Ezekiel 33:9-20, God says that He will punish the wicked. If the wicked turns from his sin, god will show mercy. If the righteous turn from their righteousness God will judge them. The point is very plain---no proof text, but basic context---God holds man accountable because man has a choice. In Exodus 32:9-14, God is going to destroy Israel and raise seed to Moses, Moses pleads with God. God withholds His judgment. God turns from the act of destroying them---because someone stood before God and prayed.
The Real issue, you are right, is the ordo salutis, and Total Depravity. The problem with your order---it's not scriptural. There is no where in scripture that says that we are born again in order to believe. The Bible uses the word dead, not to describe a state of lifelessness, but one of separation. Physical death itself teaches that. When a person dies, they are still very much a live---in eternity. Their body may be dead but they are alive. Death is separation. When the prodigal son returned home the Father announced---my son who was DEAD is now alive. Was the son dead? NO! He was separated from the Father (which he came to himself). In Revelation Christ is speaking to the church in Sardis and told them that they were dead, but that they needed to revive those things that remain. Spiritual death does not imply an inability to respond (and please don't use Lazarus as your example, that story has nothing to do with salvation, but it was used to reveal the Deity of Christ) In John 8, when the woman was taken in adultery, Christ wrote in the ground. The Bible says that they were convicted in their conscience----if they were "dead and could not respond" they would have never been convicted. It's impossible to convict a dead man. (According to Calvin) No where do we see God regenerating someone so that they may believe. We are always told to believe first. There are no scriptures that support that notion. But in Ephesians we are told that after we believe we are sealed with the Spirit of promise.
The issue is still there---what about the children? There is no way to "preserve" them or keep them safe. Calvin believed in determinism. Calvinism at its core---is deterministic. Mankind does have a choice! God does not have to save anyone, but because God is Sovereign, He has chosen the way of salvation and has made that way available to ALL!!!
Yes, to ALL! Not a select few, but ALL! Scripture is very plain that God has made the way of salvation, not just available to all, but that he calls all to salvation. Man cannot save himself! The greatest example of salvation is in Genesis 3 after the fall of Man. Adam ran and hid from God (nothing has changed--mankind still does this). God came and searched for Man (nothing has changed God ALWAYS goes after man first), God called and what happened? Adam was not born again, that does not happen until the New Testament, BUT ADAM responded to God. Wow! God calls and mankind can respond.
@@rangersNHL Except for Reformed theology, the rest of what is called "Christendom" holds to semi-Pelgianism. Your comment is in that category.
around minute 2:00
King James Bible
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
(Calvinism is the dumbest DAMN thing)