Back when Gnome announced Adwaita I genuinely thought it was a good thing. Having a DE that just works, has a great app ecosystem and holds consistency above everything else sounds like a great thing on paper, especially when you factor in that Gnome is the default desktop of just about every point release distro out there and is generally the first DE a Linux noob will encounter, it might sound elitist but I think there is real value in hiding the more advanced features of linux from new users since as a new user, its easy to get overwhelmed by the sheer number of customisation options something like KDE has. In the words of Katy Perry though, that was then and this is now. At this point it just seems like Gnome are being deliberately obtuse asshats, I'm sure its not really meant to be as bad as it looks but my god, its like some of the team just argue for the sake of it. This pattern has been on repeat for a while now, break something legacy for downstream (or even crossstream) then gaslight the other devs complaining that xyz is broken by telling them Adwaita doesn't follow xyz and blaming them for assuming the legacy behaviour was intentional and wouldn't be changed on a whim.
@Dungeonseeker1uk I don't really understand the utility of adwaita, when kde is able to have a theme be consistent on all apps (excluding certain gnome apps, which just cock-block theming) without limiting the users to a single and ugly theme (which was also broken lol) It just feels like gnome devs hate users and just want to impose on them every single decision, macos style
@@no_name4796 Hear me out, this might sound like a hot take. Forcing new linux users into a tightly managed ecosystem is not necessarily a bad thing, its essentially what they're used too and gives them time to adjust to the OS differences on a fundamental level before bombarding them with 600 options that all have minute differences and are only relevant to r/linuxporn users. Its all too common to read users saying they swapped to linux for a few weeks but jumped back to windows because it was too much too quickly. Adwaita is not a bad idea on paper, having a windows/macos-esque style DE where everything is consistent and the user can only make minor changes would be a gret thing, as with everything gnome though, they shot for the triple flip 180o tucked and ended up hitting the pool belly first.
@@no_name4796 I do understand it, I don't agree with it, but I think the logic is clear. If you design something on concrete, it can't ever change, the chances of your design not being what you planned for are 0. If you design with Lego, and let people swap parts as they wish, the chances of things not working (or looking) right increase almost exponentially with each piece the user changes, taking into account that all the pieces interact with one another. The rigid design route is only good if you assume that 1- it works for every user as it is, and 2- they won't get tired of it. It works for hammers: you are usually not supposed to change the handles. (But as someone who has done some jewelry, we even customize our hammers, both the faces and the handles, so there's that).
Having some black spots to rest your eyes upon on the vast field on whiteness that is the gnome DARK theme (Ie many gnome CORE apps see you set the theme to dark, and just pretend you didn't lol)
We need more of this. No, really! Gnome needs to declare that they give no Fs about what anyone else is doing, standards and interoperability be damned. You will do it the Gnome Way or as far as they're concerned your app doesn't need to exist. This attitude is already prevalent in the Gnome space, it's just not (yet) explicit enough for people to notice. We need people to notice. Because right now the major distributions are dismissing people's issues with Gnome as users whining about not getting their way. There are real, serious issues with Gnome and interoperability with everything else right now, and that's not going to change unless there's a lot more and bigger set of concrete complaints about Gnome just giving everyone the finger and refusing to implement any sort of interoperability standard. Because right now, they don't have to. They are the standard, like it or not. The rest of us using something else are the exception.
Your suggestion to look at the other side of the fence is fantastic. So many developers are missing important QoL features of other systems simply because they've never ever used them.
That goes for regular users too btw. Living decades walled off will make us think we've got the best features ever just because it's open source while it turns out competitors do have some genuinely good ideas worth copying or getting inspired by.
@@Megalomaniakaal Not even that. "We will use the spec, we won't adhere to the spec, y'all can fuck off" -- Gnome devs, yet again. At this point every other DE should actively break things for Gnome so they get their shit together. I'm sick and tired of Gnome dragging the rest of the Linux ecosystem down with their bullshit.
"It's not a bug, it's an undocumented feature" It's a pet peeve of mine when there's a clear spec and people/corpos just choose to ignore them. Like, we all agreed to the spec (GNOME's Terms and Conventions in the GDM Reference Manual from at least 02/10/2009 indicate that GNOME was, at least at one point, in accordance with the FreeDesktop specs, "such as the Desktop Entry Specification used by GDM."), you can't just "nuh uh" your way out of that. Grinds my gears, I tell you
You can always nuh-uh out of any "standard" when developing your own software, that's just how reality works. But reasonable developers would tell you up front if they do or do not support a standard which has broad compliance in the application domain.
My favourite icon theme is the Brodie Robertson icon theme where every icon in my system changes to the Wayland icon by default. Truly an icon theme of all time.
Man, as a gnome user the gnome team seems kinda insufferable and completely incapable of playing nicely with others. Following whatever issue they're refusing to fix is consistently exhausting :(
This one's amazing because after immediately dismissing the problem they caused by breaking the spec, they quietly fixed it while pointing the finger at everyone else for using old outdated icons.
@@CptJistuce do you happen to know how they solved the issue given their concerns about a sym link breaking re-coloring functionality? Just curious what the resolution was
@@CrisEdmundson Somehow, they managed to find a way to make "just do the right thing" even dumber than continuing to stonewall and deny any use cases exist beyond their perfect garden. It's really impressive, and I have to respect Gnome's dedication to stirring the pot.
It's arrogance. Gnome is the default on most distros so they figure they are the top dog and why should they care about others. They are the billionaire tech bros of the FOSS world.
@ok-tr1nw I use kde since a month ago, so i can't make a list, but unless they fixed it in a month, i am pretty sure there are lots of apps just using the light theme (and some apps are even core apps, somehow) Obliously there a lots of not gnome related apps which just don't support dark theme, but that i can kinda give the gnome team a pass (although kde is able to make all gtk apps dark, soooooo...)
They should secretly implement support for animated background wallpapers, and have the light in the lantern flicker and dim every so often. Just enough for people to ask about it, but rare enough that most people never see it and don't believe the people who do.
No need. The next version of Gnome will just drop wallpaper support entirely. It is an ancient vestige and nobody (they care about) uses them anymore. :P
GNOME likes to act as spokesperson for Linux Desktop, on their blog/comment you find more saying as Linux App development...wheres on other DEs you read App Development. (Flathub advertises itself as Linux App Distribution Framework, but its design follows GNOME tightly).
Tbf gnome was able to convince major distros to use it, instead of kde so i can see why they would consider themselves a representative of the linux desktop. Although kde 6 just blows gnome out of the park. There is no competition anymore. Kde is both more functional, and is just faster at implementing important features like tearing. I really hope kde becomes a default for fedora alongside gnome, as someone proposed. Kde 6 really deserves some more spotlight
@no_name4796 Exactly. With more and more Linux users soon to be trying out Linux from Windows 11 due to Copilot (unclear how many will actually try, but definitely at least a few), I really hope they don't start with GNOME and then give up because GNOME is backwards in some many ways... KDE Plasma 6, on the other hand, only has a few small graphical issues on Wayland, only on my desktop with an Nvidia GPU, and they seem to be fixed with Plasma 6.1 and Explicit Sync support in that release.
@cameronbosch1213 Idk how i feel about that, as someone who used only gnome for 1 years after switching to linux, and then some window managers, and now i finally landed in kde after kde6 was released. Kde is good (okular, konsole especially i love those apps! Okular allows you to abuse your ram and preload everything is just something i didn't know i needed), but it has so many options that it may scare newbies away from linux. Gnome instead is fairly easy and has a nice GUI (ignoring broken theme, and gtk2/3 apps) But that's all i can say for gnome. Heck lots of gtk apps look better on kde then on gnome, crazily enough! And i love that kde makes theming for you, even flatpak apps are already themed!
System trays is the biggest proof of that lol It's crazy gnome took something EVERYONE ELSE uses (even windows and macos) and said: "naaaaaah, we don't do that here!", thus breaking some apps functionality
@@cheako91155 This. I understand and have experienced your pain before brother, I'm trying linux back on 2010~2012 ish when ubuntu is switching from Gnome 2 to Knome 3, the to that hypermodified Gnome 3 they called unity. It's full of jank but it run somewhat better than KDE back then since I have a lowend ewaste laptop (KDE 4 is an effing resource hog for a 2gb device with a 2010 pentium laptop processor, I REALLY LIKE TO RUN IT BUT I JUST CAN'T 😞). When I can't stand it anymore I switched back to windows were satiated with win 7 and win8.1 for a while. Just try other DEs first before giving up. The software now is more polished than back then. Use Linux Mint or Fedora (KDE or its other DE Spins) they are pretty stable imho.
As someone who actually likes and uses GNOME regularly, the utter pigheaded arrogance and myopia of seemingly every vocal GNOME developer is genuinely embarrassing.
Damn, these Gnome devs make sure you want to slap them... I don't know if I would have kept my cool, Nate has my respect. I wish every project just stopped using any GTK and just let Gnome do their thing on their own. They don't seem to want to be part of the ecosystem as they often break it, don't follow protocol, and prevent new ones. For this, I'm all for fragmention... I've not been on linux for long, but it just keep happening, its always Gnome or NVIDIA...
@@BrainStormzFTC Not featured in the video, but if you read the issues linked in the description you'll find that Gnome and KDE both use -symbolic, but for slightly different things.
This Git thread is actually a great example as to why I dislike GNOME and avoid it wherever possible. They have some of the most arrogant and frustrating developers that refuse to fix their broken software. Thank goodness for KDE, please keep being great and improving while .. GNOME can go drive in a lake.
My hope is that tons of people switch from Gnome to Cosmic, once that's ready. I get that for many KDE's "complexity" isn't ideal, but maybe Cosmic can help to make Gnome completely irrelevant. The funniest thing would be if Ubuntu would make the switch. 😀
At this point I say just let Gnome be by themselves. I myself see them as the Apple of the Linux Community. Gnome is making their ecosystem and seem to want everyone to conform to their way of thinking
Would be nice if more distro started shipping kde as default, or at least side by side with gnome. There was an issie about this for fedora, which would make fedora kde as official as fedora gnome (ie workstation). That would be nice! Especially now that kde is getting stable and overall a good experience
It's so exhausting when people talk past each other instead of too each other. I've experienced this a lot before I was laid off even in the corporate space and, of course, the difference there is someone steps in and says "Ok, enough" and chooses a solution by the time tested method of throwing a dart at a board or flipping a coin. And, in this case, boy is it frustrating because when a non tech savvy this issue, they blame the developer and say "Linux apps are ugly and broken." I really feel for Nate here because he really is speaking clearly and rationally and some people are just making into "but... our way is better, don't you see that?"
sigh..gnome team is really Apple of the Linux/GNU world. I do kinda respect people like Nate G. that can manage to talk with "people" like this, I would have gone "Linus Torvalds on them" long time ago....but then again I'm we are both Finnish
@b0t123 kde doesn't need forks because everything has basically its own 3rd party store. You want applets? There is a 3rd party store. You want themes? Same. You want icons? Same. You want a wife? Sorry, you use arch, btw! Also, let's be serious, who would ever fork the monstrosity that is kde at a code level? I certantly wouldn't!
@@no_name4796 KDE has been forked. More than once. Even older forks of older KDE versions are still being maintained today, which is kind of crazy. But they are way, way less common and known than GNOME forks.
Unless Gnome project is willing to blacklist the software that is available for Linux and incompatible with their opinionated implementation or provide own gnome software for every use case their users might need to avoid having to use i.e. qt apps, they have no right to break userspace. Especially in such trivial ways. Either that or shut up already and create your own system and compete.
Yeah, their cult of perfection just ends up making anything which isn't gnome core basically unusablr or ugly as hell. Heck, even gnome apps can be problematic, AS SOME OF THEM DO NOT EVEN RESPECT THE FUCKING DARK THEME lol. And anything not gtk4.0 looks ugly as hell If they were to redo every single app in gtk4.0 I could accept their way of doing things, but since the gnome core has just some 40 or 50 apps max, they should just accept perfection does not exists.
@@no_name4796you see, they must make sure non GNOME apps are perpetually broken so they don't end up installing QT into their system by mistake! That maximizes the own fart ruffing to DNF install command ratio!
They did create their own system, and they call it "Gnome." You are free not to use it if you don't like it. I don't use it either, but I'm not so self-entitled to think I can dictate to the Gnome developers what they do with their time.
Just imagine Microsoft breaking their competitors software like this. How would you feel about that? Cause that's how I feel about Gnome at the moment.
@@CaraesNaur It be fair about OS/2, IBM had no idea what they wanted and requested changes constantly. And one part of IBM had no idea what any other part was doing. You know, the IBM way.
Kde6 is pretty stable on my laptop lol Also: gnome file manager fucked my usb drive multiple times. Not all is shiny and stable in the land of small people (gnomes, ahahah LAUGHT NOW!)
IKR, been using Fedora KDE for a year now. It's been great. There are some bumps since Fedora release 40 with KDE 6 but it is pretty much usable. It's better for me to provide diagnostic data with KDE than use that POS DE Gnome.
This discussion is a good example of a much broader issue: users need some kind of baseline standard they can rely on in the desktop space. I am a Linux user for 25 years, mostly professionally in the sysadmin space, so mostly stuck in terminal. I am currently working on a personal project where I need a lightweight desktop and lost hours on this and similar issues. I can only conclude that the root issue is the lack of any standard or baseline for the Linux desktop. Don't get me wrong: Gnome, KDE and others should have the freedom to follow their own vision and thus providing more choice for the user. However, is it so far fetched to expect that there is some kind of standard ensuring basic applications are functional? I am not expecting much, just the basic controls, icons etc, maybe 5 base colors or a dark them they all respect loosely? I literally spent hours on end tinkering to get simple applications look decent. Approaching this from user perspective: I don't care if an app is based on gtk, qt or whatever. At times I was looking at source code to check what it was using and I gave up when I realized I ended up choosing apps based on the framework to avoid configuring and maintaining several. This is exactly the opposite of choice. Is it so hard to work together to get a very crude standard in place? Afterwards you can go crazy with vision, themes and features. I hope some day people realize this is blocking user adoption severely. As a long time Linux user and relatively new to modern Linux wm's and de's, I can only say it is a shame. I am currently implementing dwm as a base and I know dwm is not intended for new users so I am fine with minimal docs. However, setting up and customizing dwm was far easier and less time consuming than getting 10 apps (mostly mix gtk and qt) to look more or less acceptable and workable. I did get it to work in the end but the experience was horrible and involved convoluted workarounds. I will even go so far to claim that managing a HPUNIX system 25 years ago was less of a struggle. Not all is bad though, I am very positive about the progress of Wayland and recently how gaming evolved on Linux. Valve was a major drive for the latter and I hope this is seen as inspiration how to drive user adoption: make things work without the user having to care how. By the way: my custom desktop runs the latest games on a nvidia card without issue by installing steam while having a standard icon displayed in a qt based Bluetooth manager gui took days...
Linux is mostly run by volunteers, it's not easy to make them agree on standards, when there isn't a gerarchic structure. Which is absolutely not what i want, but for how much corporations suck, they are good at making a SINGLE choise for everyone (although it often sucks cough cough windows cough cough)
True. Trying to achieve consistent theming across Frameworks is actually a nightmare. It never works 100%. For that reason, I recently ditched my graphical file manager (which was PCManFM) and reverted to nnn in the terminal. While the decision turns out brilliant for me, the reason for doing so should be considered unacceptable. This is not a solution for everyone.
i was baffled when i first installed i3 and every root gui app gave me an error saying there was no polkit. i had to install the xfce polkit. it's genuinely bizarre sometimes. like is there some galaxy brain programmer reason why you'd ship a wm with no polkit that i'm not aware of? i'm just a user, i shouldn't have to fix your software for you.
@@no_name4796anarchist volunteer groups like Food Not Bombs and the Green Guerillas have very consistent standards. if you can get anarchists to agree on things in real life, you can get FOSS devs to lay down a baseline of what different types of software should do.
@@no_name4796plenty of real life volunteer groups have consistent standards. food banks, soup kitchens, guerilla gardeners, and firefighters all know what they're doing. this is almost exclusively a linux problem and it keeps getting worse.
Ironically kicking them out would isolate devs in their own world even more. Gnome devs should be forced to use only kde and other DE/WM for a year. That would make them grow
@@AlexBarbuit's the boogieman buzzword of the day. programmers being more than one type of person is not a new thing or a bad thing. this is a gnome problem, not a "people i don't like are getting into my hobby" problem.
You missed an important point in this video! One of the commenters pointed out that MOST of the apps that were listed as 'having FDO theming only as opt-in', were actually using FDO icon themes by default on other desktop environments... But not on Gnome. Nobody else had noticed, because the focus was on how apps looked in Gnome.
KDE, COSMIC, LxQt, Cinnamon, MATE etc... should check for the presence of GNOME libraries on the system and throw an error warning that running alongside GNOME is no longer supported as it deliberately breaks other desktops.
I would agree. The problem is too many distros ONLY OFFICALLY ship GNOME, which is pretty much every enterprise distro... Although Valve does do that with VR on Wayland because GNOME and VR... currently don't work at all. (Valve's instructions say to install KDE Plasma, who would have thought!)
I love the Gnome desktop and my local Gnome dev community, where Sonny is part of btw, but damn it seems like some people argue just for the sake of it. It’s so easy, follow the spec, update it or fix your broken theme and they still argue. Instead they should be discussing with other involved gnome devs, which route to go :/ There are more desktop environments, heck I use more desktop environments on different systems. I genuinely prefer gtk to qt for being able to integrate and I hope that it will get decoupled from gnome a bit
#StopKillingIconThemes Dear all developers, If you see an icon, but the user doesn't, that is NOT YOUR FAULT! It's the user's fault for using a crappy icon theme. Keep adhering to the FDO icon spec, and when FDO Icon Spec++ is out, rest assured that your users won't see broken buttons. Sincerely, A random Linux user who will not give up icon theming. *This post was brought to you by the XFCE+Qt Apps gang.
What doesn't seem good to me is that the GNOME developers make it appear that they are interested in the topic, when in reality they are very clear about their position beforehand and that is that this is not the direction they want to take. GNOME recently took a basically different direction than the rest of the Linux environments in terms of whether it is right or wrong for third parties to modify the appearance of applications. They just don't want to. And when I say "them", I mean the designers, some Gtk maintainers (I think all but one), the gnome-settings maintainer, and the shell maintainer. They all have the same position, which in my opinion is selfish, self-centered and absurd, but of course, they sure should think differently about it. In another less rigid stance, however, is the Mutter maintainer, the gjs maintainer, and a Gtk maintainer. In a third position that is contrary were other developers, some have had to leave. Among them are those from Cosmic, Ubuntu, gedit, gnome-terminal... The issue is that the problematic ones lead the GNOME core applications or are the ones who establish the design line. I think this trend was reinforced after the incorporation into GNOME of developers who have interests in using the GNOME environment for mobile applications.
So now that there is adwaita-icon-theme-legacy, can adwaita-icon-theme finally stop pretending to be an FDO full color icon theme? So distros can install a-i-t-legacy or another FDO icon theme when a non-GNOME app is installed, and FDO icon theming compliant apps don't try loading missing icons from a-i-t. And so KDE doesn't have to blacklist a-i-t for being a broken FDO icon theme, while GNOME people don't even want it to be an FDO icon theme.
a-i-t was now set up to "inherit" from a-i-t-legacy (using programmer speak), so it effectivly is a "compliant" theme. PS the entire "theme spec" is actuall 2 separate specs: the icon-naming-spec and the icon-theme-spec, with a-i-t only implementing the latter.
not an issue here :D the qt applications i write , use svg style icons that i can recolor on the fly since they are included (the relevant parts ) as strings in the sourcecode and reconstructed to be valid svg xml on the fly so i can recolor them as i want, they also arent taking up any space as little files / or increase loading times since there arent any files but the binary itself
I do wonder what was the issue with tango icon themes. Tango mandates they always have a contrasting outline to the icons so that the icon is always discernible regardless of how good or blinding the background is.
Well, maybe Gnome should leave the Freedesktop ecosystem completely so that we know we won't use incompatible software on the rest of linux ecosystem from the start, but then GTK would suffer a lot, almost impossible to recover.
@@BrodieRobertson Unfortunately yes, in this case, but they always keep ignoring the rest of the (free)desktop community either way :/ ╮(. ❛ - ❛.)╭
@@nezu_cc There is a huge difference in not accepting everything and pretending to follow a spec they aren't following and breaking apps. I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone to ask them to fix this particular issue.
@@no_name4796 conservative would be having system tray, as such had existed for ages (iirc even gnome had it at some point), gnome is anything but conservative
The whole problem is that Gnome only cares about the Gnome system. They couldn't care less about any third party developers. This is why I can't gnome. As long as they stay on their high horse, nothing will change.
Yeah, honestly the fact that most distro which use gnome, just tweak it to the point it's miles away from vanilla gnome speaks tons. Kde doesn't need the same treatment, as users themselves can do whatever they want
At this point, Gnome leaves the impression of being hostile to the Linux ecosystem as a whole, for entirely selfish reasons. It's the complete opposite of what open source should stand for, and even if I liked their desktop approach (which I decidedly do not), I would not use it, and would never recommend it to anybody.
GNOME's main developers are objectively broken. They forced not only this, but other crap, on their users, like the lack of server side decoration on Wayland, not adding extensions that over 70% of surveyed users used, and now saying "pLeAsE dOn'T tHeMe oUr ApPs, ThEy'Ll LoOk BrOkEn", then do this to other apps. That's super hypocritical, especially the last one (the issue Brodie is taking about in this video).
@monkeibusiness Yeah, really. I agree. If you don't want to at least work with other DEs, then that's fine. But don't go out of your way to make everything else broken for everybody else, especially when many distros currently use you!
Gnome has so many bigger problems than icon theming, mostly it's wayland compositor implementation having major issues that don't exist on any other desktop.
"If these theme was agreed on to be made from the start" From the point of identifying the issue with the creation of the initial issue to the creation of the legacy theme took a couple of weeks. It took you longer to even make a video on it than it took to address the issue after discussing it, identifying the issues and solving them. I would suggest that is a pretty good turn around time. But saying that wouldn't be clickbait enough
Checking the dates, the first commit from issue to repository was 7 days. 7 days including weekend and may day bank holiday. How fast do you expect a solution to arrive?
I would agree with you, but you are missing the point made in the video; For it was not about how long the “solution” took to be created, but the fact that they could have simply agreed upon it from the start to avoid all of this unnecessary, childish mess. Even if it took three months after that, as long as they would have agreed on this from the beginning, things would not have needed to escalate to such amounts of frustration, stubbornness, and stupidity.
@@atemoc the video mixes up two separate issues, the icon theme and the icon naming spec. The latter has not been updated in 20 years and is not in use outside KDE other than occasionally as an option in feature. The KDE developers have acknowledged this issue. The video was clickbait and did not even offer differentiation of two separate things and how they contribute to cause this issue. You can continue thinking people are childish for not being as smart as you but they are busy developing things instead of just throwing snark.
1 month of discussion, and in a long ass essay he says at the very end "btw, i fixed it" If it happened to me it would be hilarious and i would start punching the my european sturdy wall real hard at the same time (Lol i threw in also a joke about how americans homes are made of paper basically, just ignore it)
The KDE folks worrying about this but not the fact that icon themes, color schemes and the rest that one finds in Discover do not distinguish themselves between KDE5 and KDE6 and you don't know if a lot of it works until you've downloaded it. I personally was frustrated earlier today when trying out new sddm themes. Most do not tell you which version these eye candy bits are for so things can break. It's frustrating AF.
Correct me if Im wrong, so the fix is: Adwaita was "dealt with" by renaming to legacy, setting this as the default (for Gnome?) and ALSO updating the meta data ? I like the idea of Blacklisting Adwaita and making Breeze the default. Also I get the feeling just renaming them to not include "symbolic" in the filenames would also do the trick. No idea if anything uses -symbolic filenames and what they are named like that. I think I like Tweaks Amiga Icons but they are not perfect thats for sure.
Thank you for this video. I wasn’t going mad! I’ve seen GNOME vs FDO issue arise, ever since GNOME 3 came along. I’ll forego any additional reading however deep my feelings appear on these issues. 😁 I manage a RHEL based desktop and we used Mate on RHEL 7 because I liked GNOME 2 on RHEL 6. While most apps provided with the desktop are Java and some random library, it was nice having a consistent look to at least the remaining apps. Then symbolic icons came along and I started seeing this exact issue. My other grievance with GNOME was dropping nested menus from the Application menu (plus making it an add-on). This broke some well designed UI I made for accommodating my customers. People who aren’t IT geeks and just need stuff working and easily accessible. I agree with some of the other comments on here about the GNOME project being arrogant, even ignorant. I disagree with the sentiment that it’s because the devs have only lived in a GNOME desktop. These transitions did take time, but I doubt the dev team has churned in that time enough for that knowledge to not exist. If it has churned, an unattractive culture was passed on.
All of Gnome's f ing around with standards is very reminiscient of Microsoft's anti-competitive tactics, like how they deliberately implement the docx standard wrong so that libreoffice compatibility is broken. Only that - in theory - foss is a collaborative space. Gnome doesn't really have an interest in collaboration it seems. I guess that's what happens when for profit companies select your project for their enterprise solutions and have their workforce become important contributors. The for profit mindset seeps in.
Is it weird that I find the "just make your own icon machinery for yourself that is in no way compatible with the standard" argument just... completely insane? I personally would've liked the standard to have -symbolic added and for a well defined way of handling their recoloring so you can create a fallback on the fly for cases where: The symbolic exists but the non-symbolic is asked for (by painting it the inverse of the background for maximum contrast and visibility) And where the non-symbolic exists but the symbolic is asked for (by, for example, making it grayscale) Would it always look good? Certainly not, but it'd make themes and icons a whole lot more resilient to incomplete themes
Symbolic is likely going to added to the standard KDE is in support of it but it's not a backwards compatible solution so the old icons still need to be present
Not at all. I think that comment is just saying that Gnome apps should be hardcoded to use Adwaita, just like apps like Steam, Discord, Firefox, Chromium, etc hardcode their own icons in their apps.
To be fair to GNOME devs (which I normally don't tend to), the problem is caused by Fedora - GNOME apps do not use the system icon theme, they are hard-coded to use adwaita. If Fedora would ship another compliant icon theme (such as Ununtu's humanity theme) and set that as the system theme - everything would have worked great.: GNOME apps do not read that setting and other apps would get something working - not pretty and stupidly inconsistent, but this is how GNOME devs want to play it anyway. Fedora caused the problem by not understanding that adwaita was, but then stopped being a real icon theme, and Fedora should have fixed it by maintaining their own theme. *BUT* Fedora devs *are* GNOME devs and they have slso no desire to support non-GNOME apps on their OS, so they don't care that they ship a broken system.
So we agree that this is a gnome issue bc they are the same set of pricks that work on fedora? 😅 I use -and like- gnome btw, I just don't like the devs
At this point GNOME can just f off and leave FDO. They clearly habe no interest in any of the FDO goals anymore. So they should just leave and let the Big kids work.
Cinnamon's out-of-box desktop was also missing tons of icons too despite not being associated with KDE and Qt. Also, this turns out not to be a foolproof solution. The inheritance model means that you may wind up with a mixed set of icons unless you explicitly use Adwaita Legacy.
This explains why after the first OS update I did after installing my Debian, half the icons I got used to just went "I'm monochrome now and you can't do shit about it!". Something apparently had band-aids to prevent everything breaking and the update seems to not have that anymore.
Man i hate when gnome decides on something... and then tries to gaslight people that it's been like this forever and for everyone * Icon themes are dead! * FDO index spec doesn't mean we are FDO * Theming is Dead! * There's no such thing as a native theme Like WTF
@Poldovico cool if that's what they want but not the point Theming community is alive, even inside gnome They know very well what a native system theme is they have it implemented for the Last 15 years So they can stop lying Also the entire DE is just for gnome apps fine, resign completely from FDO and stop causing havoc Tell users not use Obs, wine or any QT apps too Edit: wait is this sarcasm... sorry
honestly the GuhNOME project is so absolutely f-worded that I wish it would just disappear off the internet for ever. KDE, XFCE, LXDE, and so on, they're all not only BETTER than GuhNOME, but also much less hostile. GuhNOME developers are hostile towards every other project, they ignore parts of specs and standards that they claim to adhere to, just because they don't like those parts, breaking everything that isn't explicitly designed for GuhNOME. Frankly I hope to see some big projects just pulling out all the extra code they had to write just to make them work on GuhNOME, put "GNOME is unsupported" in the README, and just let the whole desktop burn down.
A couple years ago, Android added support for apps to use a system-wide color scheme to maybe make apps more consistent across the system. If Android were written by Gnome devs, it's likely that any Android app that didn't use it would have displayed colors as white on white. "We aren't implementing yesterday's specifications anymore". BTW, Gnome isn't just breaking KDE, Brodie covered Linux Mint further severing its connection to Gnome. One reason for this is because … icons are broken/missing. At this point, GTK+ itself needs to be forked. Not even kidding, sadly.
Standards exist for a reason. I was already fed up of seeing how some game devs completely ignore the XDG Base Specification when writing save/config data t the system (looking at you Braid, World of Goo, and everyone else that creates a hidden folder directly inside $HOME instead of using $XDG_DATA_HOME or $XDG_CONFIG_HOME - though some devs also don't follow Windows standards either, but that shouldn't be an example to be followed either), now seeing GNOME not give a shit to such a basic standard because they think their UI/UX decisions are better than everyone else's is just insult added to injury at this point. It makes me think - why don't people just boycott GNOME by not using it anymore? Clearly there are better alternatives to it that are not KDE per se (e.g. COSMIC, Cinnamon, hell even Pantheon if someone is so desperate to have that "MacOS-esque" feel). If GNOME doesn't want to listen to reason, then it should stop being treated as the "default" on the Linux ecosystem, since they don't want to act as one (to my eyes they never were anyway, no sane person thinks MacOS is the "default" on a Windows-centric market share).
Note that letting "adwaita-icon-theme" inherit from "adwaita-icon-theme-legacy" does not fully fix the problem. It allows to fix missing icon by installing "adwaita-icon-theme-legacy", that's good. Though Gnome does not want to put "adwaita-icon-theme-legacy" as hard dependency of the "adwaita-icon-theme" package, neither does Gnome want to ship it by default for Gnome OS. So many people still will see missing icons. Only if users actively do install "adwaita-icon-theme-legacy", all icons will be present.
Imagine if every gnome issue appears there's a Cosmic guy that just comes and say "hey we already got rid of the issue in our DE, come and enjoy :D". Basically turn the gnome gitlab into their absolute farm while the gnome devs still malding. That would be fucking hilarious!
"Hi Brodie!" 😆
Back when Gnome announced Adwaita I genuinely thought it was a good thing. Having a DE that just works, has a great app ecosystem and holds consistency above everything else sounds like a great thing on paper, especially when you factor in that Gnome is the default desktop of just about every point release distro out there and is generally the first DE a Linux noob will encounter, it might sound elitist but I think there is real value in hiding the more advanced features of linux from new users since as a new user, its easy to get overwhelmed by the sheer number of customisation options something like KDE has. In the words of Katy Perry though, that was then and this is now. At this point it just seems like Gnome are being deliberately obtuse asshats, I'm sure its not really meant to be as bad as it looks but my god, its like some of the team just argue for the sake of it. This pattern has been on repeat for a while now, break something legacy for downstream (or even crossstream) then gaslight the other devs complaining that xyz is broken by telling them Adwaita doesn't follow xyz and blaming them for assuming the legacy behaviour was intentional and wouldn't be changed on a whim.
@Dungeonseeker1uk
I don't really understand the utility of adwaita, when kde is able to have a theme be consistent on all apps (excluding certain gnome apps, which just cock-block theming) without limiting the users to a single and ugly theme (which was also broken lol)
It just feels like gnome devs hate users and just want to impose on them every single decision, macos style
@@no_name4796 Hear me out, this might sound like a hot take. Forcing new linux users into a tightly managed ecosystem is not necessarily a bad thing, its essentially what they're used too and gives them time to adjust to the OS differences on a fundamental level before bombarding them with 600 options that all have minute differences and are only relevant to r/linuxporn users. Its all too common to read users saying they swapped to linux for a few weeks but jumped back to windows because it was too much too quickly. Adwaita is not a bad idea on paper, having a windows/macos-esque style DE where everything is consistent and the user can only make minor changes would be a gret thing, as with everything gnome though, they shot for the triple flip 180o tucked and ended up hitting the pool belly first.
Hi Nate :D
@@no_name4796 I do understand it, I don't agree with it, but I think the logic is clear.
If you design something on concrete, it can't ever change, the chances of your design not being what you planned for are 0.
If you design with Lego, and let people swap parts as they wish, the chances of things not working (or looking) right increase almost exponentially with each piece the user changes, taking into account that all the pieces interact with one another.
The rigid design route is only good if you assume that 1- it works for every user as it is, and 2- they won't get tired of it. It works for hammers: you are usually not supposed to change the handles. (But as someone who has done some jewelry, we even customize our hammers, both the faces and the handles, so there's that).
"Steve was killed after he drank GNOME Water."
"Yeah, you shouldn't drink that, it's hydrogen peroxide."
"Then stop saying that it's water!"
"No."
Obligatory. th-cam.com/video/F6DTAH2CG7c/w-d-xo.html
Yes, perfect summary.
No, but actually we don't want to use GNOME water anymore. But here have more GNOME water.
"what's the use case of having working icons?"
Not to look like modern Windows! 😂
[tags as "wontfix"]
Having some black spots to rest your eyes upon on the vast field on whiteness that is the gnome DARK theme
(Ie many gnome CORE apps see you set the theme to dark, and just pretend you didn't lol)
Yeah! Modern apps (read: Gnome apps) already work, so where's the issue? 🤔
We need more of this. No, really! Gnome needs to declare that they give no Fs about what anyone else is doing, standards and interoperability be damned. You will do it the Gnome Way or as far as they're concerned your app doesn't need to exist. This attitude is already prevalent in the Gnome space, it's just not (yet) explicit enough for people to notice.
We need people to notice. Because right now the major distributions are dismissing people's issues with Gnome as users whining about not getting their way. There are real, serious issues with Gnome and interoperability with everything else right now, and that's not going to change unless there's a lot more and bigger set of concrete complaints about Gnome just giving everyone the finger and refusing to implement any sort of interoperability standard.
Because right now, they don't have to. They are the standard, like it or not. The rest of us using something else are the exception.
Your suggestion to look at the other side of the fence is fantastic. So many developers are missing important QoL features of other systems simply because they've never ever used them.
That goes for regular users too btw. Living decades walled off will make us think we've got the best features ever just because it's open source while it turns out competitors do have some genuinely good ideas worth copying or getting inspired by.
Honestly I'm left positively in awe if they even just dogfood. But that would be a cherry on top.
@@Megalomaniakaal Not even that. "We will use the spec, we won't adhere to the spec, y'all can fuck off" -- Gnome devs, yet again.
At this point every other DE should actively break things for Gnome so they get their shit together. I'm sick and tired of Gnome dragging the rest of the Linux ecosystem down with their bullshit.
"It's not a bug, it's an undocumented feature"
It's a pet peeve of mine when there's a clear spec and people/corpos just choose to ignore them. Like, we all agreed to the spec (GNOME's Terms and Conventions in the GDM Reference Manual from at least 02/10/2009 indicate that GNOME was, at least at one point, in accordance with the FreeDesktop specs, "such as the Desktop Entry Specification used by GDM."), you can't just "nuh uh" your way out of that. Grinds my gears, I tell you
You can always nuh-uh out of any "standard" when developing your own software, that's just how reality works.
But reasonable developers would tell you up front if they do or do not support a standard which has broad compliance in the application domain.
It feels like GNOME's been doing embrace/extend/extinguish for a while now..
My favourite icon theme is the Brodie Robertson icon theme where every icon in my system changes to the Wayland icon by default. Truly an icon theme of all time.
On kde any wayland app without an icon, fallbacks to the wayland icon instead lol
I thought you were going to say, "every icon in my system changes to Brodie's waifu avatar icon by default", which i definitely would like to see
@dozers42 wayland is brodie waifu
@@no_name4796 True! Very true! 🤣
@@dozerd42that wouldn't make a good joke
Man, as a gnome user the gnome team seems kinda insufferable and completely incapable of playing nicely with others. Following whatever issue they're refusing to fix is consistently exhausting :(
This one's amazing because after immediately dismissing the problem they caused by breaking the spec, they quietly fixed it while pointing the finger at everyone else for using old outdated icons.
@@CptJistuce do you happen to know how they solved the issue given their concerns about a sym link breaking re-coloring functionality? Just curious what the resolution was
@@CrisEdmundson Put out a "legacy icons" theme, as mentioned at the end of the video.
@@CptJistuce ah gotcha, I clicked away before the end cause following the story was frustrating as hell 😅
Thanks!
@@CrisEdmundson Somehow, they managed to find a way to make "just do the right thing" even dumber than continuing to stonewall and deny any use cases exist beyond their perfect garden.
It's really impressive, and I have to respect Gnome's dedication to stirring the pot.
Gnome why are you like this? Why can't you just get along with everyone else? Everyone else gets along, but you don't? Why? Why can't you be normal?
*Cries in system tray
because they're MODERN
*gnome screeches*
It's arrogance. Gnome is the default on most distros so they figure they are the top dog and why should they care about others. They are the billionaire tech bros of the FOSS world.
wanna-be Apple, remove choice, invent the wheel, declare as innovation
Gnome really does put their foot in their mouth sometimes
.... I'll see myself out
And up their ears...
The Stallman Effect
mmmphfhgh...
Gnome theme itself is broken, as it's not even able to make core apps respect the dark / light theme
💀
Never had a gnome app not respect the theme preference, are you using another de?
Not even all apps look the same. You have a mix of old and new adweita.
@ok-tr1nw
I use kde since a month ago, so i can't make a list, but unless they fixed it in a month, i am pretty sure there are lots of apps just using the light theme (and some apps are even core apps, somehow)
Obliously there a lots of not gnome related apps which just don't support dark theme, but that i can kinda give the gnome team a pass (although kde is able to make all gtk apps dark, soooooo...)
Ragebait comment be like
GNOME should make the wallpaper a gas lantern by the default.
look at the gas light
They should secretly implement support for animated background wallpapers, and have the light in the lantern flicker and dim every so often. Just enough for people to ask about it, but rare enough that most people never see it and don't believe the people who do.
No need. The next version of Gnome will just drop wallpaper support entirely. It is an ancient vestige and nobody (they care about) uses them anymore. :P
GNOME likes to act as spokesperson for Linux Desktop, on their blog/comment you find more saying as Linux App development...wheres on other DEs you read App Development. (Flathub advertises itself as Linux App Distribution Framework, but its design follows GNOME tightly).
Tbf gnome was able to convince major distros to use it, instead of kde so i can see why they would consider themselves a representative of the linux desktop.
Although kde 6 just blows gnome out of the park. There is no competition anymore. Kde is both more functional, and is just faster at implementing important features like tearing.
I really hope kde becomes a default for fedora alongside gnome, as someone proposed. Kde 6 really deserves some more spotlight
@no_name4796 Exactly. With more and more Linux users soon to be trying out Linux from Windows 11 due to Copilot (unclear how many will actually try, but definitely at least a few), I really hope they don't start with GNOME and then give up because GNOME is backwards in some many ways...
KDE Plasma 6, on the other hand, only has a few small graphical issues on Wayland, only on my desktop with an Nvidia GPU, and they seem to be fixed with Plasma 6.1 and Explicit Sync support in that release.
@cameronbosch1213
Idk how i feel about that, as someone who used only gnome for 1 years after switching to linux, and then some window managers, and now i finally landed in kde after kde6 was released.
Kde is good (okular, konsole especially i love those apps! Okular allows you to abuse your ram and preload everything is just something i didn't know i needed), but it has so many options that it may scare newbies away from linux.
Gnome instead is fairly easy and has a nice GUI (ignoring broken theme, and gtk2/3 apps)
But that's all i can say for gnome. Heck lots of gtk apps look better on kde then on gnome, crazily enough! And i love that kde makes theming for you, even flatpak apps are already themed!
GNOME attempts to be a working desktop challenge [IMPOSSIBLE]
System trays is the biggest proof of that lol
It's crazy gnome took something EVERYONE ELSE uses (even windows and macos) and said: "naaaaaah, we don't do that here!", thus breaking some apps functionality
Thanks for letting me know why some of my icons are blank.
Gnome.
99% of questions of GUI problems can be probably answered with 'because gnome'
I now suspect this is what I endured on Kubuntu 18.04 for four years. Half a dozen icons in Kate were missing, and more elsewhere.
You can solve that by switching to KDE or any other DE than Gnome.
@@ayanned Or I could just run Windows.
@@cheako91155 This.
I understand and have experienced your pain before brother, I'm trying linux back on 2010~2012 ish when ubuntu is switching from Gnome 2 to Knome 3, the to that hypermodified Gnome 3 they called unity.
It's full of jank but it run somewhat better than KDE back then since I have a lowend ewaste laptop (KDE 4 is an effing resource hog for a 2gb device with a 2010 pentium laptop processor, I REALLY LIKE TO RUN IT BUT I JUST CAN'T 😞). When I can't stand it anymore I switched back to windows were satiated with win 7 and win8.1 for a while.
Just try other DEs first before giving up.
The software now is more polished than back then. Use Linux Mint or Fedora (KDE or its other DE Spins) they are pretty stable imho.
As someone who actually likes and uses GNOME regularly, the utter pigheaded arrogance and myopia of seemingly every vocal GNOME developer is genuinely embarrassing.
It sure is odd. Why? Are they trying to copy Apple? By forcing one to use their mouse every now and then.
@@TomAtkinson Apple is much more benign than those toxic Gnome standard bearers...
Damn, these Gnome devs make sure you want to slap them... I don't know if I would have kept my cool, Nate has my respect.
I wish every project just stopped using any GTK and just let Gnome do their thing on their own. They don't seem to want to be part of the ecosystem as they often break it, don't follow protocol, and prevent new ones. For this, I'm all for fragmention...
I've not been on linux for long, but it just keep happening, its always Gnome or NVIDIA...
Even NVIDIA has been cool nowadays. It's only GNOME.
I hated them from their release of that POS of a DE Gnome 3.
GNOME: Modern Apps = GNOME (Circle) Apps;
TBF, KDE says they like and are switching to the -symbolic naming scheme as well, though future developments don't fix all current issues.
@@BrainStormzFTC Not featured in the video, but if you read the issues linked in the description you'll find that Gnome and KDE both use -symbolic, but for slightly different things.
Gnome: The standard is more what you call guidelines than actual rules.
Gnome: standard are standards only if we make them. Otherwise they are just suggestions
It's more like "my word is the law"
with POS Gnome.
This Git thread is actually a great example as to why I dislike GNOME and avoid it wherever possible. They have some of the most arrogant and frustrating developers that refuse to fix their broken software. Thank goodness for KDE, please keep being great and improving while .. GNOME can go drive in a lake.
My hope is that tons of people switch from Gnome to Cosmic, once that's ready. I get that for many KDE's "complexity" isn't ideal, but maybe Cosmic can help to make Gnome completely irrelevant. The funniest thing would be if Ubuntu would make the switch. 😀
At this point I say just let Gnome be by themselves.
I myself see them as the Apple of the Linux Community.
Gnome is making their ecosystem and seem to want everyone to conform to their way of thinking
Would be nice if more distro started shipping kde as default, or at least side by side with gnome.
There was an issie about this for fedora, which would make fedora kde as official as fedora gnome (ie workstation). That would be nice!
Especially now that kde is getting stable and overall a good experience
@@no_name4796 fedora ships a decent KDE version though they still default on that Gnome POS.
I can see gnome suggesting a new key on the keyboard named the "gnome key".
@@ThisIsSparta-k2m the audacity.
They’d be like Apple if they had better designers
It's so exhausting when people talk past each other instead of too each other. I've experienced this a lot before I was laid off even in the corporate space and, of course, the difference there is someone steps in and says "Ok, enough" and chooses a solution by the time tested method of throwing a dart at a board or flipping a coin. And, in this case, boy is it frustrating because when a non tech savvy this issue, they blame the developer and say "Linux apps are ugly and broken." I really feel for Nate here because he really is speaking clearly and rationally and some people are just making into "but... our way is better, don't you see that?"
sigh..gnome team is really Apple of the Linux/GNU world.
I do kinda respect people like Nate G. that can manage to talk with "people" like this, I would have gone "Linus Torvalds on them" long time ago....but then again I'm we are both Finnish
Yeah, seeing how devs can be, linus personality becomes more and more understandable lol
Yeah, there are reasons why gnome has so many forks while KDE doesn't
@b0t123 kde doesn't need forks because everything has basically its own 3rd party store.
You want applets? There is a 3rd party store. You want themes? Same. You want icons? Same. You want a wife? Sorry, you use arch, btw!
Also, let's be serious, who would ever fork the monstrosity that is kde at a code level? I certantly wouldn't!
@@no_name4796 KDE has been forked. More than once. Even older forks of older KDE versions are still being maintained today, which is kind of crazy. But they are way, way less common and known than GNOME forks.
I am surprised they didnt tell you to use client side icon themes instead of relying on a standard system icon theme. (well they kind of did).
Unless Gnome project is willing to blacklist the software that is available for Linux and incompatible with their opinionated implementation or provide own gnome software for every use case their users might need to avoid having to use i.e. qt apps, they have no right to break userspace. Especially in such trivial ways. Either that or shut up already and create your own system and compete.
Yeah, their cult of perfection just ends up making anything which isn't gnome core basically unusablr or ugly as hell.
Heck, even gnome apps can be problematic, AS SOME OF THEM DO NOT EVEN RESPECT THE FUCKING DARK THEME lol. And anything not gtk4.0 looks ugly as hell
If they were to redo every single app in gtk4.0 I could accept their way of doing things, but since the gnome core has just some 40 or 50 apps max, they should just accept perfection does not exists.
@@no_name4796you see, they must make sure non GNOME apps are perpetually broken so they don't end up installing QT into their system by mistake! That maximizes the own fart ruffing to DNF install command ratio!
@Silverblue-se6iy It's not couldn't, it's wouldn't. :D
They did create their own system, and they call it "Gnome." You are free not to use it if you don't like it. I don't use it either, but I'm not so self-entitled to think I can dictate to the Gnome developers what they do with their time.
@Silverblue-se6iysame
Gnome is broken. On purpose, apparently.
"Gnome is not broken! You are using it wrong"
Cit: tim cook
Just imagine Microsoft breaking their competitors software like this. How would you feel about that? Cause that's how I feel about Gnome at the moment.
@@foobar8894 Like they did with OS/2 and Windows NT back in the day?
@@CaraesNaurEEE
@@CaraesNaur It be fair about OS/2, IBM had no idea what they wanted and requested changes constantly. And one part of IBM had no idea what any other part was doing. You know, the IBM way.
What Gnome is doing here with the FDO icon specification smells awfully lot like the good old "embrace, extend and extinguish".
"Mom, can we get Cosmic?"
"We have Cosmic at home."
Cosmic at home: GNOME
*"Oh my goodness, that's a foot!"*
It is what it is. Why decided to copy gnome, I have to idea.
The solution is called KDE Plasma.
If you ignore the countless bugs, yes
_Plasma shell crashed unexpectedly_
Kde6 is pretty stable on my laptop lol
Also: gnome file manager fucked my usb drive multiple times.
Not all is shiny and stable in the land of small people (gnomes, ahahah LAUGHT NOW!)
@@OkarinHououinKyouma Yeah, I haven't seen this in several releases. So I'm not sure it's as prevalent as it once may have been.
IKR, been using Fedora KDE for a year now.
It's been great.
There are some bumps since Fedora release 40 with KDE 6 but it is pretty much usable.
It's better for me to provide diagnostic data with KDE than use that POS DE Gnome.
This discussion is a good example of a much broader issue: users need some kind of baseline standard they can rely on in the desktop space. I am a Linux user for 25 years, mostly professionally in the sysadmin space, so mostly stuck in terminal.
I am currently working on a personal project where I need a lightweight desktop and lost hours on this and similar issues. I can only conclude that the root issue is the lack of any standard or baseline for the Linux desktop.
Don't get me wrong: Gnome, KDE and others should have the freedom to follow their own vision and thus providing more choice for the user.
However, is it so far fetched to expect that there is some kind of standard ensuring basic applications are functional? I am not expecting much, just the basic controls, icons etc, maybe 5 base colors or a dark them they all respect loosely?
I literally spent hours on end tinkering to get simple applications look decent. Approaching this from user perspective: I don't care if an app is based on gtk, qt or whatever. At times I was looking at source code to check what it was using and I gave up when I realized I ended up choosing apps based on the framework to avoid configuring and maintaining several.
This is exactly the opposite of choice. Is it so hard to work together to get a very crude standard in place? Afterwards you can go crazy with vision, themes and features.
I hope some day people realize this is blocking user adoption severely.
As a long time Linux user and relatively new to modern Linux wm's and de's, I can only say it is a shame.
I am currently implementing dwm as a base and I know dwm is not intended for new users so I am fine with minimal docs. However, setting up and customizing dwm was far easier and less time consuming than getting 10 apps (mostly mix gtk and qt) to look more or less acceptable and workable. I did get it to work in the end but the experience was horrible and involved convoluted workarounds.
I will even go so far to claim that managing a HPUNIX system 25 years ago was less of a struggle.
Not all is bad though, I am very positive about the progress of Wayland and recently how gaming evolved on Linux. Valve was a major drive for the latter and I hope this is seen as inspiration how to drive user adoption: make things work without the user having to care how. By the way: my custom desktop runs the latest games on a nvidia card without issue by installing steam while having a standard icon displayed in a qt based Bluetooth manager gui took days...
Linux is mostly run by volunteers, it's not easy to make them agree on standards, when there isn't a gerarchic structure.
Which is absolutely not what i want, but for how much corporations suck, they are good at making a SINGLE choise for everyone (although it often sucks cough cough windows cough cough)
True. Trying to achieve consistent theming across Frameworks is actually a nightmare. It never works 100%.
For that reason, I recently ditched my graphical file manager (which was PCManFM) and reverted to nnn in the terminal. While the decision turns out brilliant for me, the reason for doing so should be considered unacceptable.
This is not a solution for everyone.
i was baffled when i first installed i3 and every root gui app gave me an error saying there was no polkit. i had to install the xfce polkit. it's genuinely bizarre sometimes. like is there some galaxy brain programmer reason why you'd ship a wm with no polkit that i'm not aware of? i'm just a user, i shouldn't have to fix your software for you.
@@no_name4796anarchist volunteer groups like Food Not Bombs and the Green Guerillas have very consistent standards. if you can get anarchists to agree on things in real life, you can get FOSS devs to lay down a baseline of what different types of software should do.
@@no_name4796plenty of real life volunteer groups have consistent standards. food banks, soup kitchens, guerilla gardeners, and firefighters all know what they're doing. this is almost exclusively a linux problem and it keeps getting worse.
Kick gnome out. They want a gnome eco-system. They don't want a free open source desktop.
Ironically kicking them out would isolate devs in their own world even more.
Gnome devs should be forced to use only kde and other DE/WM for a year.
That would make them grow
@@no_name4796 It is better than awkwardly working to accommodate these "special" DEI devs.
@@AlexBarbuit's the boogieman buzzword of the day. programmers being more than one type of person is not a new thing or a bad thing. this is a gnome problem, not a "people i don't like are getting into my hobby" problem.
@@ayanneddude you’ve made that DEI comment twice, why do you keep doing this? It’s a totally uncalled for monkey wrench into the discussion
I was literally thinking that. Just bundle breeze as a fallback that could be uninstalled if you dont need it, and if you break something, user error.
Warning: "Adwaita is not compatible with our icons, please install a decent theme!"
@@no_name4796
Non fatal-error detected: error #4D53
(Please annoy GNOME people on their bug tracker.)
Press enter to continue.
ENTER=continue
You missed an important point in this video! One of the commenters pointed out that MOST of the apps that were listed as 'having FDO theming only as opt-in', were actually using FDO icon themes by default on other desktop environments... But not on Gnome.
Nobody else had noticed, because the focus was on how apps looked in Gnome.
KDE, COSMIC, LxQt, Cinnamon, MATE etc... should check for the presence of GNOME libraries on the system and throw an error warning that running alongside GNOME is no longer supported as it deliberately breaks other desktops.
I would agree. The problem is too many distros ONLY OFFICALLY ship GNOME, which is pretty much every enterprise distro... Although Valve does do that with VR on Wayland because GNOME and VR... currently don't work at all. (Valve's instructions say to install KDE Plasma, who would have thought!)
this would be really funny for us who follow this crap. but normal users wouldn't be so amused about anything but a solution.
The only issue I've had is KDE f***ing up my gnome settings.
I guess they should have a warning about KDE too.
«GNOME detected. Things will be broken.»
~ mpv
Your problem was using Gnome in the first place @@donkey7921
I love the Gnome desktop and my local Gnome dev community, where Sonny is part of btw, but damn it seems like some people argue just for the sake of it. It’s so easy, follow the spec, update it or fix your broken theme and they still argue. Instead they should be discussing with other involved gnome devs, which route to go :/
There are more desktop environments, heck I use more desktop environments on different systems. I genuinely prefer gtk to qt for being able to integrate and I hope that it will get decoupled from gnome a bit
#StopKillingIconThemes
Dear all developers,
If you see an icon, but the user doesn't, that is NOT YOUR FAULT! It's the user's fault for using a crappy icon theme. Keep adhering to the FDO icon spec, and when FDO Icon Spec++ is out, rest assured that your users won't see broken buttons.
Sincerely,
A random Linux user who will not give up icon theming.
*This post was brought to you by the XFCE+Qt Apps gang.
The problem with dogfooding is that you forget what people food tastes like.
I can't say I'm surprised. I'm just going to fall back to the "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" rule-of-thumb here...
What doesn't seem good to me is that the GNOME developers make it appear that they are interested in the topic, when in reality they are very clear about their position beforehand and that is that this is not the direction they want to take. GNOME recently took a basically different direction than the rest of the Linux environments in terms of whether it is right or wrong for third parties to modify the appearance of applications. They just don't want to. And when I say "them", I mean the designers, some Gtk maintainers (I think all but one), the gnome-settings maintainer, and the shell maintainer. They all have the same position, which in my opinion is selfish, self-centered and absurd, but of course, they sure should think differently about it. In another less rigid stance, however, is the Mutter maintainer, the gjs maintainer, and a Gtk maintainer. In a third position that is contrary were other developers, some have had to leave. Among them are those from Cosmic, Ubuntu, gedit, gnome-terminal... The issue is that the problematic ones lead the GNOME core applications or are the ones who establish the design line. I think this trend was reinforced after the incorporation into GNOME of developers who have interests in using the GNOME environment for mobile applications.
cosmic soon
GNOME moment.
So now that there is adwaita-icon-theme-legacy, can adwaita-icon-theme finally stop pretending to be an FDO full color icon theme? So distros can install a-i-t-legacy or another FDO icon theme when a non-GNOME app is installed, and FDO icon theming compliant apps don't try loading missing icons from a-i-t. And so KDE doesn't have to blacklist a-i-t for being a broken FDO icon theme, while GNOME people don't even want it to be an FDO icon theme.
They probably will just ship it alongside adwaita, so that adwaita can be considered as FDO complaint
a-i-t was now set up to "inherit" from a-i-t-legacy (using programmer speak), so it effectivly is a "compliant" theme. PS the entire "theme spec" is actuall 2 separate specs: the icon-naming-spec and the icon-theme-spec, with a-i-t only implementing the latter.
GTK5, and by extension GNOME Shell, is all but confirmed at this point to be killing off icon set support, so your wish is going to be granted.
The fact that Kate editor has a better theme in Windows than in the most used Linux distro should make us think.
not an issue here :D the qt applications i write , use svg style icons that i can recolor on the fly since they are included (the relevant parts ) as strings in the sourcecode and reconstructed to be valid svg xml on the fly so i can recolor them as i want, they also arent taking up any space as little files / or increase loading times since there arent any files but the binary itself
I do wonder what was the issue with tango icon themes. Tango mandates they always have a contrasting outline to the icons so that the icon is always discernible regardless of how good or blinding the background is.
Why are gnome devs stuck up their own asses so hard?
Well, maybe Gnome should leave the Freedesktop ecosystem completely so that we know we won't use incompatible software on the rest of linux ecosystem from the start, but then GTK would suffer a lot, almost impossible to recover.
That won't solve anything for the users of the platform
@@BrodieRobertson Unfortunately yes, in this case, but they always keep ignoring the rest of the (free)desktop community either way :/ ╮(. ❛ - ❛.)╭
@@BrodieRobertsonwe can't make gnome users use a better platform, that's their problem and gnome's problem.
Love the GNOME desktop, but their developers...
Gnome is so great exactly because of the developers. Think about that for a minute. If they agreed to everything, we would have a second KDE
@@nezu_cc yeah, let's hope they don't agree to anything and get abandoned by everyone else
@@nezu_cc it's a matter of balance, being different doesn't mean being a dick
@@nezu_cc There is a huge difference in not accepting everything and pretending to follow a spec they aren't following and breaking apps. I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone to ask them to fix this particular issue.
The solution is not a solution, its a stop gap. A desktop environment should be consistent. An app should be able to use the system icons.
And an app should also be able to use system tray.
It's crazy gnome is more conservative then apple on this
@@no_name4796 conservative would be having system tray, as such had existed for ages (iirc even gnome had it at some point), gnome is anything but conservative
brodie your 20 minute speel could've been used on my assignment ahhh! Loved the twist at the end making all the lowkey arguing irrelevant.
The whole problem is that Gnome only cares about the Gnome system. They couldn't care less about any third party developers. This is why I can't gnome. As long as they stay on their high horse, nothing will change.
Yeah, honestly the fact that most distro which use gnome, just tweak it to the point it's miles away from vanilla gnome speaks tons.
Kde doesn't need the same treatment, as users themselves can do whatever they want
At this point, Gnome leaves the impression of being hostile to the Linux ecosystem as a whole, for entirely selfish reasons. It's the complete opposite of what open source should stand for, and even if I liked their desktop approach (which I decidedly do not), I would not use it, and would never recommend it to anybody.
@@stephanhuebner4931 It's hard to see it any other way.
Whenever I see yet another gnome drama I'm more and more inclined to think that gnome is an elaborate troll DE
Be prepared for Richard Brown to get even more mad at you for criticizing GNOME.
Gnome is objectively broken.......fixed.
GNOME's main developers are objectively broken. They forced not only this, but other crap, on their users, like the lack of server side decoration on Wayland, not adding extensions that over 70% of surveyed users used, and now saying "pLeAsE dOn'T tHeMe oUr ApPs, ThEy'Ll LoOk BrOkEn", then do this to other apps. That's super hypocritical, especially the last one (the issue Brodie is taking about in this video).
I get so much hate for saying this
@@esra_erimez gnome people are kinda special, @cameronbosch1213 is so right. Dev brains are broken
@monkeibusiness Yeah, really. I agree. If you don't want to at least work with other DEs, then that's fine. But don't go out of your way to make everything else broken for everybody else, especially when many distros currently use you!
Still objectively broken, and I'm a consistent user.
Classic GNOME devs, 'what is the use case for icons'
GNOME should leave Freedesktop.
B-but then they won't be able to complain abput how the world isn't gnome-like.
Adwaita. Adwaita everywhere
Gnome has so many bigger problems than icon theming, mostly it's wayland compositor implementation having major issues that don't exist on any other desktop.
Don't worry, running any non-GNOME apps on GNOME is already broken.
I once tried installing okular on gnome. Damn, it was an experience ahahah
"If these theme was agreed on to be made from the start"
From the point of identifying the issue with the creation of the initial issue to the creation of the legacy theme took a couple of weeks.
It took you longer to even make a video on it than it took to address the issue after discussing it, identifying the issues and solving them.
I would suggest that is a pretty good turn around time.
But saying that wouldn't be clickbait enough
Checking the dates, the first commit from issue to repository was 7 days.
7 days including weekend and may day bank holiday.
How fast do you expect a solution to arrive?
I would agree with you, but you are missing the point made in the video; For it was not about how long the “solution” took to be created, but the fact that they could have simply agreed upon it from the start to avoid all of this unnecessary, childish mess. Even if it took three months after that, as long as they would have agreed on this from the beginning, things would not have needed to escalate to such amounts of frustration, stubbornness, and stupidity.
@@atemoc the video mixes up two separate issues, the icon theme and the icon naming spec.
The latter has not been updated in 20 years and is not in use outside KDE other than occasionally as an option in feature. The KDE developers have acknowledged this issue.
The video was clickbait and did not even offer differentiation of two separate things and how they contribute to cause this issue.
You can continue thinking people are childish for not being as smart as you but they are busy developing things instead of just throwing snark.
Extremely common GNOME L
Yeah the W in gnome stands for Win, oh wait...
almost as common as brodie "accidentally" showing he uses arch btw
9:04 "I don't know what XFCE is" energy!
Gnome devs : "Adwaita is not an icon theme"
Also Gnome dev : "Until then, Adwaita will still be an icon theme"
WTF? Stop smoking and start coding!
Sounds like my work sometimes, arguing with a developer, about something only to get a I fixed it in the end, to sidetrack the whole discussion.
1 month of discussion, and in a long ass essay he says at the very end "btw, i fixed it"
If it happened to me it would be hilarious and i would start punching the my european sturdy wall real hard at the same time
(Lol i threw in also a joke about how americans homes are made of paper basically, just ignore it)
refreshing the video waiting for Nate's comment saying hi back
hi
@@nategraham4027 THE LEGEND!!!!!!!!!!
@@nategraham4027 LMAO
The KDE folks worrying about this but not the fact that icon themes, color schemes and the rest that one finds in Discover do not distinguish themselves between KDE5 and KDE6 and you don't know if a lot of it works until you've downloaded it. I personally was frustrated earlier today when trying out new sddm themes. Most do not tell you which version these eye candy bits are for so things can break. It's frustrating AF.
Oh look, Gnome is causing issues again. What a surprise.
Oh my god! I just went to install adwaita icon theme legacy and it fixed all the broken icon I had lingering. These broken icons were so annoying.
Correct me if Im wrong, so the fix is: Adwaita was "dealt with" by renaming to legacy, setting this as the default (for Gnome?) and ALSO updating the meta data ? I like the idea of Blacklisting Adwaita and making Breeze the default. Also I get the feeling just renaming them to not include "symbolic" in the filenames would also do the trick. No idea if anything uses -symbolic filenames and what they are named like that. I think I like Tweaks Amiga Icons but they are not perfect thats for sure.
I like how Nate essentially said the same thing 3 times (at least in this video)
Thank you for this video. I wasn’t going mad! I’ve seen GNOME vs FDO issue arise, ever since GNOME 3 came along. I’ll forego any additional reading however deep my feelings appear on these issues. 😁
I manage a RHEL based desktop and we used Mate on RHEL 7 because I liked GNOME 2 on RHEL 6. While most apps provided with the desktop are Java and some random library, it was nice having a consistent look to at least the remaining apps. Then symbolic icons came along and I started seeing this exact issue.
My other grievance with GNOME was dropping nested menus from the Application menu (plus making it an add-on). This broke some well designed UI I made for accommodating my customers. People who aren’t IT geeks and just need stuff working and easily accessible.
I agree with some of the other comments on here about the GNOME project being arrogant, even ignorant. I disagree with the sentiment that it’s because the devs have only lived in a GNOME desktop. These transitions did take time, but I doubt the dev team has churned in that time enough for that knowledge to not exist. If it has churned, an unattractive culture was passed on.
All of Gnome's f ing around with standards is very reminiscient of Microsoft's anti-competitive tactics, like how they deliberately implement the docx standard wrong so that libreoffice compatibility is broken.
Only that - in theory - foss is a collaborative space. Gnome doesn't really have an interest in collaboration it seems. I guess that's what happens when for profit companies select your project for their enterprise solutions and have their workforce become important contributors. The for profit mindset seeps in.
holy shit someone who actually understands what EEE means instead of just saying it whenever Microsoft does anything they don't like
Is it weird that I find the "just make your own icon machinery for yourself that is in no way compatible with the standard" argument just... completely insane?
I personally would've liked the standard to have -symbolic added and for a well defined way of handling their recoloring so you can create a fallback on the fly for cases where:
The symbolic exists but the non-symbolic is asked for (by painting it the inverse of the background for maximum contrast and visibility)
And where the non-symbolic exists but the symbolic is asked for (by, for example, making it grayscale)
Would it always look good? Certainly not, but it'd make themes and icons a whole lot more resilient to incomplete themes
Symbolic is likely going to added to the standard KDE is in support of it but it's not a backwards compatible solution so the old icons still need to be present
Not at all. I think that comment is just saying that Gnome apps should be hardcoded to use Adwaita, just like apps like Steam, Discord, Firefox, Chromium, etc hardcode their own icons in their apps.
To be fair to GNOME devs (which I normally don't tend to), the problem is caused by Fedora - GNOME apps do not use the system icon theme, they are hard-coded to use adwaita. If Fedora would ship another compliant icon theme (such as Ununtu's humanity theme) and set that as the system theme - everything would have worked great.: GNOME apps do not read that setting and other apps would get something working - not pretty and stupidly inconsistent, but this is how GNOME devs want to play it anyway.
Fedora caused the problem by not understanding that adwaita was, but then stopped being a real icon theme, and Fedora should have fixed it by maintaining their own theme. *BUT* Fedora devs *are* GNOME devs and they have slso no desire to support non-GNOME apps on their OS, so they don't care that they ship a broken system.
So we agree that this is a gnome issue bc they are the same set of pricks that work on fedora? 😅
I use -and like- gnome btw, I just don't like the devs
At this point GNOME can just f off and leave FDO. They clearly habe no interest in any of the FDO goals anymore. So they should just leave and let the Big kids work.
Cinnamon's out-of-box desktop was also missing tons of icons too despite not being associated with KDE and Qt.
Also, this turns out not to be a foolproof solution. The inheritance model means that you may wind up with a mixed set of icons unless you explicitly use Adwaita Legacy.
14:12 That's not a problem with icon theming itself, but with the implementation. As usual, types or better packaging tools would be the answer.
just avoid anything gnome, fixes most issues.
Well there are people who work on gnome like me and can’t use kde sooo…
@@Doctor_Glados skill issue
Then you'll be avoiding everything single enterprise distro unfortunately... No, I don't like it either...
@@Doctor_Gladosyou should go work on KDE! :333333
@@Doctor_Glados Use a VM. And skill issue.
This explains why after the first OS update I did after installing my Debian, half the icons I got used to just went "I'm monochrome now and you can't do shit about it!".
Something apparently had band-aids to prevent everything breaking and the update seems to not have that anymore.
Man i hate when gnome decides on something... and then tries to gaslight people that it's been like this forever and for everyone
* Icon themes are dead!
* FDO index spec doesn't mean we are FDO
* Theming is Dead!
* There's no such thing as a native theme
Like WTF
GNOME is a desktop environment for running GNOME apps.
If GNOME doesn't ship it, you don't need it. And if you do, you're wrong.
@Poldovico cool if that's what they want but not the point
Theming community is alive, even inside gnome
They know very well what a native system theme is they have it implemented for the Last 15 years
So they can stop lying
Also the entire DE is just for gnome apps fine, resign completely from FDO and stop causing havoc
Tell users not use Obs, wine or any QT apps too
Edit: wait is this sarcasm... sorry
Wow, a story with an unexpected plot twist!, Very interesting!!
The good thing is that the issue was mostly solved.
Eh, not in a good way
honestly the GuhNOME project is so absolutely f-worded that I wish it would just disappear off the internet for ever. KDE, XFCE, LXDE, and so on, they're all not only BETTER than GuhNOME, but also much less hostile. GuhNOME developers are hostile towards every other project, they ignore parts of specs and standards that they claim to adhere to, just because they don't like those parts, breaking everything that isn't explicitly designed for GuhNOME.
Frankly I hope to see some big projects just pulling out all the extra code they had to write just to make them work on GuhNOME, put "GNOME is unsupported" in the README, and just let the whole desktop burn down.
On fedora there was an issue to make kde an official DE, alongside gnome.
That is already a good first step.
woa gnome actually fixed something, such a surprise!
(I like gnome but jfc fix your crap and support standards, gnome)
They didn't fix it in the ideal way though, they should have also made Adwaita a non-FDO icon theme
@alternetax
I mean, now adwaita can be shipped with the "not modern icons", so it is complaint with the standards
18:40 And that's an estimate on the lower side of things.
The idea of FD.O had come to life by some bloke at GNOME
How times change, isn't it?
That was initially the work of Havoc Pennington for anyone who may be curious about the name
Are we _really_ sure that GNOME devs don't make linux experience worse on purpose?
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
adwaita icons and theme work well with the debian install. I have had issues with other gtk theme. Some are broken from the website.
A couple years ago, Android added support for apps to use a system-wide color scheme to maybe make apps more consistent across the system. If Android were written by Gnome devs, it's likely that any Android app that didn't use it would have displayed colors as white on white. "We aren't implementing yesterday's specifications anymore".
BTW, Gnome isn't just breaking KDE, Brodie covered Linux Mint further severing its connection to Gnome. One reason for this is because … icons are broken/missing. At this point, GTK+ itself needs to be forked. Not even kidding, sadly.
This is why one of the first things I do when installing a Linux distro is go get the papirus icon theme.
We should switch from GNOME to Plasma or Cinnamon or anything else. That’ll show them!
Or Cosmic once it’s out
Standards exist for a reason. I was already fed up of seeing how some game devs completely ignore the XDG Base Specification when writing save/config data t the system (looking at you Braid, World of Goo, and everyone else that creates a hidden folder directly inside $HOME instead of using $XDG_DATA_HOME or $XDG_CONFIG_HOME - though some devs also don't follow Windows standards either, but that shouldn't be an example to be followed either), now seeing GNOME not give a shit to such a basic standard because they think their UI/UX decisions are better than everyone else's is just insult added to injury at this point.
It makes me think - why don't people just boycott GNOME by not using it anymore? Clearly there are better alternatives to it that are not KDE per se (e.g. COSMIC, Cinnamon, hell even Pantheon if someone is so desperate to have that "MacOS-esque" feel). If GNOME doesn't want to listen to reason, then it should stop being treated as the "default" on the Linux ecosystem, since they don't want to act as one (to my eyes they never were anyway, no sane person thinks MacOS is the "default" on a Windows-centric market share).
"I have nothing against GNOME, but..."
This is why I embed Breeze Icons into my apps instead of specifying xdg-icon names.
Meanwhile Mint team just hangs in there, doing their stuff with Cinnamon, not bothered by anyone xD I love it so much
Note that letting "adwaita-icon-theme" inherit from "adwaita-icon-theme-legacy" does not fully fix the problem.
It allows to fix missing icon by installing "adwaita-icon-theme-legacy", that's good. Though Gnome does not want to put "adwaita-icon-theme-legacy" as hard dependency of the "adwaita-icon-theme" package, neither does Gnome want to ship it by default for Gnome OS.
So many people still will see missing icons. Only if users actively do install "adwaita-icon-theme-legacy", all icons will be present.
Adwaita icon theme not available everywhere but gnome. it's not present in XFCE, MATE & even KDE. if they're exist, it's broken, all over the place.
Why the heck is adwaita dependency of gtk if it can't even do icons
There is not enough little Niel Goompa in this discussion.
What if instead of gnome it was called freakome and instead of being a desktop environment it was a freaky environment 👅
Imagine if every gnome issue appears there's a Cosmic guy that just comes and say "hey we already got rid of the issue in our DE, come and enjoy :D".
Basically turn the gnome gitlab into their absolute farm while the gnome devs still malding. That would be fucking hilarious!
All I see is F E E T