Prototype Mauser HSv Pistols
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- / forgottenweapons
When the German military finally could no longer tolerate the expense of the P.08 Luger in the late 1930s, they held a trial of possible replacements. The three main entrants were BSW with a gas-operated pistol, Walther with what would ultimately be accepted as the P.38, and Mauser with it's experimental HSv locked-breech design. Mauser had begun development of the pistol as a replacement for the models 1910/14/34, with two stylistically matching designs - once blowback in small calibers and one locked for 9x19 Parabellum. The initial commercial design had a full-length slide, covering a recoil spring located around the barrel.
However, the German military requirements specifically called for an exposed barrel. This forced Mauser to redesign its recoil spring system, and they opted to use a lever system like in Webley automatic pistols. With that change, and having moved the magazine release to the pistol's heel, they had an entrant for military testing.
It appears that the Mauser HSv in 9x19 was every bit as good of a pistol as the P.38 - and it actually feels better in the hand than the P.38 to me. However, the Mauser was significantly more expensive, which led to the Walther design winning. The Mauser design would follow a pattern much like the 1910 Mauser had - the small scale blowback design would prove very popular (as the HSc, adopted by the Kriegsmarine among others and selling very well commercially), but the locked breech larger design would fail to make any inroads and never enter production.
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/ forgottenweapons
"I just happen to always carry a spare P-38, just for comparison purposes". Ian you are simply awesome.
German guns are incredible. Under every points of view. I am portuguese and this country had, Lugers, Walthers P-38s,PPs and PPKs. K98 rifles, Mannlichers, MG-43s and of course the H&K G-3, and 21,in 7,62X51mms. They were and still be reliable guns!! I am very happy that Forgotten Weapons, never forgets them. What a guns!! What a channel!!
One of the best things about this channel is Ian's fearlessness when it comes to using highly technical terms, such as "pleuh", when he describes how the gun disassembles at 10:45 . :-)
It made perfect sense! ;-}
Don't forget "Ka-Proing" at 16:43
Germans allways surprise me with their ideas. These guns are some of the most elegant 9mm pistols I've ever seen, both mechanically and aesthetically. The fact that the German Army opted for the cheaper P38 despite the many advantages of the Mauser design over the Walther proves one of the precepts of the Murphy's Laws of Combat - Never forget your weapon was made by the lowest bidder.
I concur, the MAUSER was the better pistol, although more complex, and almost as elegant as my favorite, the Luger!
In war time, i must say walther gun is the best choice as it's cheaper not only in monetary cost, buat also man-hour and material usage which are critical to be as economical as possible. it's more important to have 10 pistols than 1 comfortable pistol
Talk about low bore axis. Such refinement of a protoype. The world missed out on what would have been a marvel.
Surely seems like a missed opportunity, simply because some high ranking official(s) wanted it their way. Closed minds kill designs.
Absolutely!
Imagine if Hitler had of embraced the MkB 42
Mauser should remanufactured these brilliantly engineered sidearms.
Or H&K, seeing as Mauser doesn't make pistols currently, if they did they would probably start with something more well known, maybe even a c96.
@@austinm.9832 Wouldn't that be like asking BMW to build Ferraris? I can not see one manufacturer building the works of another without being called a knock-off.
@@Rudofaux Mauser is owned by H&K
@@comradecosmonaut7746 ironic
@@Rudofaux Actually, Porsche did build some of the most famous Mercedes models in their factory.
Exposed barrel was there to use firing ports in vehilces(tanks mostly), which vas very common at that time (info 100%), there were similar trials in soviet union and experimental tokarev"s pistol with exposed barrel, but idea was scrapped.
Idea wasn't scrapped. Just before tha war started Tokarev were planned to be replaced by Voevodin pistol, but it was abandon because of war started. Here's the photo of that Voevodin Pistol - mtdata.ru/u26/photoDF6A/20646352317-0/original.jpg
I'm not fully convinced, as exposed barrels were also in the Mauser C-96, Borchardt and 08; in fact, it is very easy to dislodge the barrel in a P38 so it no longer is firable. As far as I have heard, it was in case of a bad cartridge that ruptured the barrel; if a slide is over the barrel, it may become stuck so you cannot even repair the pistol. I have heard that in case of a ruptured barrel, an exposed barrel lets you even fire the pistol as it doesn't interact with the slide, but I'm not convinced of that.
If you look at the Mauser G98, you see that it also had many safeguards against a catastrophic cartridge failure. It may be that a projectile could become stuck in the barrel, with the next projectile rupturing the barrel into an umbrella-shape.
Today, that is no longer a problem, but especially in war, ammo quality or sabotaged ammo definitely were considerations by Germany. There exists even a document warning of "found ammo" ("Fundmunition"), that soldiers should not load it, but give it back to repair shops who would evaluate it and then re-issue it, with warning labels.
Germany and the Soviet Union closely worked in military development after the Rapallo treaties 1922, so it is possible that those considerations were shared with Soviet developers also. It is possible Stalin's cleansings and the shift in perception towards Germany after Barbarossa meant the people sharing that concern were no longer in charge, and the risk of "found ammo" was no longer deemed prevalent as no Soviet weapon shared the calibre with a German one. Note, however, that until today no russian weapon is in an interchangable calibre to a foreign one.
@@ЕвгенийМакаров-в6л
...Looked like a more somber
Japanese NAMBU pistol 😊👍
I learn so much useful engineering jargon from these videos. 'Pleh' is a very descriptive term!
Kaproing is also a great technical term
When bsa got bought by a turkish gun company and there quality nosedived i was all like pleh
You as a person is pleh
You as a person is pleh
You as a person is pleh
Must have missed this one back then. Cheers Ian
Beautiful guns, I bet they shoot wonderfully. They should make them again
I hate it when my recoil springs go _ka-proing._ It's the worst.
Would you prefer it go _ka-plinkett_?
+Square Tins I wish. They never go _ka-plinkett_
BIG magnets... makes the "hide n go seek" portion of the exercise go far quicker
What's even worse is when they go "puh"
hack fraud springs
Exposed barrel was for the extra option that it would fit in Luger holsters. Saves the cost of producing two diff. holsters or using holsters allready in use.
The commercial model there hits practically every part of my favorite aesthetics in guns.
Gorrammit. I hate being poor.
I always liked the aesthetic of the Mauser HSc, but that non-shrouded HSv has it beat.
I just love the lines of that gun.
Love the look of that milled slide.
I don't usually have opinions on these old artifacts other than they are interesting from a historical point of view, but I must say that this pistol is one of the most aesthetically pleasing works if weapons engineering I've seen. Something about the lines and the minimalist use of materials is just appealing.
I would suspect that the reason the exposed barrel version has the heel mag release is because the recoil spring arms are in the way for a button release. When you took the grip panels off it confirmed my suspicions and just thought I would make a note of it since you stated that it may have been an oversight on the military specifications that you have located. Nice work and thank you for the educational videos.
Right on spot.
Besides, it's theoretically less empty space for crap to get into.
Peter Stephenson Whaaat? Stop watching Spielberg movies, son. You can only be catalogued as stupid.
Peter Stephenson Stop blabbering nonsense. You obviously have no combat experience therefore your lenghty discourses make absolute non sense. I've met Vietnam vets who took a shop bought handgun with them when they shipped off, and guess what?many used them in combat. Read the Thin Red Line to find out how desperate were some GI's to have a pistol besides the main battle rifle. True, a handgun is the last resort before anything else, but to say that they are intimidation tools only or executioning instruments is just ludricuous. You say "ordinary pistol" as if there was such a thing as an "extraordinary pistol" although there may be some, like the one my father took off a dead Canadian paratrooper, it was a Browning Hi-Power and believe it or not it was a selective fire weapon.
Watching this in the village of Bell Block in Taranaki, New Zealand.At the ends of the Earth.Thanks Ian and Co.
These are two really gorgeous pistols the hammer desing is just beautifully
You keep bringing up guns I had never heard about even though I have been collecting them for 40 years.
And I am just amazed that such a variety of prototypes, each about as rare as hen's teeth, from a foreign continent, have survived the WWII devastation of humanity and that you can get to handle them. Can't wait for the next one.
awesome. Ian I love your videos.
Beautifully designed piece for sure. I suspect that sealed hammer design would really help it pass the inrange TV mud test.
Ian, thank you for sharing all of your awesome videos with us. You are truly entertaining and seem to know all of the interesting facts about these very interesting guns.
Gotta love all those little German pieces! Such thought on these guns, wish I could have sat next to the engineer at his drafting table. I am a happy contributor of Forgotten Weapons!
luv the links it lets me see stuff i missed before i even knew the channel existed
Such a remarkably elegant piece. The aesthetics are very appealing.
Both of them look beautiful
"Good thing I always carry my spare P38!" Keepo
lol xD
Alex Seidel, as in the H&K co-founder? Neat.
So why is it that Edmund Heckler and Theodor Koch got their names in the company, but Alex Seidel didn't?
RedXlV Honestly, I don't know.
From my understanding, that I mostly derived from info explained by Ian in many different videos, is that the vast majority of the staff & tooling (maybe the actual factories as well) that made up the "Mauser" company before/during WW2, are in fact the same people/tooling that was reorganized (presumably adding/losing a key person here or there) and ultimately re-named "Heckler & Koch" soon after the end of WW2. I know that 1 or 2 of the good designers from Mauser were sent (I think they were actually forced, but not 100% sure) to Spain to develop new military arms for them, which culminated in the creation of the CETME family of rifles. It's actually very interesting stuff to me, and the more you read/dig, the more you see how incredibly genius some of the Germans were, and how their work was so instrumental in many things, some of which are still in use till this very day. I wasn't there, so I can't say for certain what sort of things actually went on in Europe in the 1930's and 40's, but I keep having a harder and harder time believing the generic "evil German Nazis, interested in hunting and killing innocent people" rhetoric that we are taught in America. That idea that we are taught to believe, seems to be less true every time that I dig a little deeper and learn a little more about that time period, and the people that were involved. Some of the things that are presented to us as "facts", simply ARE NOT factual in reality, for instance: the "gas chambers". One thing that got me started looking into things deeper, was when I read a direct quote from General George S. Patton (whom I admire and respect very much) right after the war ended in 1945, that wrote: "America has made a terrible mistake. We have defeated the wrong enemy. ". Another Gen. Patton quote from a letter to his wife in August 1945: "The stuff in the papers about fraternization is all wet...All that sort of writing is done by Jews to get revenge. Actually, the Germans are the only decent people left in Europe. Now it's a choice between them and the Russians. I prefer the Germans."
about the exposed barrel, what i had read many years ago, in doing research for my shiny new P1, was that if there were some weird accident whereby the barrel became distended (due to some bad ammo or whatever) the pistol would still cycle and function. a normal slide won't allow a distended barrel through the hole in the front. i don't know if that is the reason, but it is what I had heard.
"going *kaproing* across the room" I love it
the one with exposed barrel sold at auction for a mere $74.750.00
how sad...
I don't get why that one sold for over 10k less than the one with the covered barrel. I think the exposed one was much more interesting since it actually took part in the German army military trials and it has that interesting recoil spring setup. The covered barrel gun also had a potential issue with the disassembly catch... Maybe there's something more to that or someone just liked the look of the covered barrel one.
Very beautiful pistols. The full slide version is just stunning. Looks like I imagine a 1911 would if it went on a diet then spent a few weeks in a beauty parlour! Ever so graceful.
Very interesting couple of items here. The grips held on by the lanyard loop is pretty ingenious.
This exposed barrel one is one of the most elegant and refined "military service pistols" I have ever seen, only topped by the Luger. The way the Hammer always covers the firing pin is just great.
such aesthetically pleasing pistols!
those pistols, so sleek and beautiful looking, at least the exposed barrel version is. It exudes style and class. Seriously.
Please tell me there's a GIF of Ian going 'Paaahhh'. It would go great with the folding shotgun draw GIF.
Beautiful guns.. Something missing today. Usually modern means more complex. In awe of modern simplicity and reliability. Even more respect for my Sig n Glock.
Nice video about these trial guns😊 very interresting to se the recoil spring system in the grip😊 just missing the bit where they was showed with the slide on functioning. these should have been made some reproduction of😎
Hi, german here, I believe to have read in a german source that the Wehrmacht wanted an exposed barrel so that the pistol is still operabel after a failure called Laufaufbauchung. This failure happens when a squib is stuck in the barrel and you fire another bullet on lodged bullet, removing both but expanding the barrel in the process. Normally an expanded barrel would jam a gun, but with the barrel exposed, it is still able to fire and cycle. By todays standards questionable but those were the times. 4:55
Edit: This is mentioned in the P38 Manual.
I must say, I rather like the look of the commercial model.
Clean, simple lines. Artful sweeps at the forward section of both trigger guard and rear of grip.
The ergonomics LOOK comfortable, nice large button mag release,
I kinda wish someone would make a cosmetic clone of this (as a mechanical clone would be insanely expensive and with far too many small parts. I dread what time it would take to make each small component fit together like that. I would venture to say there is much simpler ways to accomplish is what can only be described as what happens when you let watch makers become gun smiths)
I you can Ian, I would honestly like a still shot of the commercial. Just the sides profiles if you would be so kind.
Great video and prod to say I have been following your sight long before the TH-cam channel.
Keep up the great work!
From what I heard on a video about the P38, it seems that the whole exposed barrel thing was because the Wehrmacht was worried that have the slide cover the barrel would make the gun more prone to malfunctions. Let's say something went really wrong and the bullet bulges the barrel. That wouldn't cause a gun like the Luger or P38 to jam.
That's a real possibility, but who is likely to fire a pistol if they know that the barrel is bulged?
+webtoedman one of the design requirements of the HK MK23 and USP pistols is they had to be able to clear a squib with a live round and continue to produce at least a 4" group at 50 meters. Even the PSG1 had a similar requirement.
In a firefight there's not always time to get a cleaning rod out to clear a squib and a bulged barrel that still shoots is better than one that disables the gun.
Hastily drafted civilians?
I thought the same thing. When I first heard of it I thought it was just a manufactured selling point.
ww1 was fought with a 3 inch thick coating of mud on just about everything. any hollow enclosed space in a reciprocating machine under such conditions will pack itself firmly with mud in short order. minimize such voids, maximize reliability. it also allows for inspection for ringed barrels, and avoids negligent cleaning that results in concealed rust. still the days of corrosive primers, mostly. when it might be placed in the hands of a plowboy of rather unsophisticated origins, you're well served by making it easy to detect if he didn't quite get the cleaning lecture without the benefit of kp and push ups, lol.
Hey Ian, quick question. Could you put links for the videos you mention you've made on guns that are relevant to the one you're talking about in the description? A bunch of times you say "I have a video on [insert gun here] if you wanna check that out" and I do wanna check it out but can't find it.
ps i've watched 90% of your videos and appreciate everything you do :D
Done.
The besssst!
I'm actually more thrilled that you replied than you did what I asked, haha.
Thanks Ian!
thanks for that, but maybe you can do something similar on other videos u may make that have references to your other videos?
My first reaction to this comment was "What? I never had any problems finding anything." Then I realized what an unfair advantage I have as a German, just knowing what all the weird words and names are spelled like. :D
On a side note: ironically, substantial numbers of the civilian HSc model made their way into the military, while this intended military version did not. A lot if not most of the ~250.000 that were made ended up in military use.
The French occupation administration also kept producing them for a while after the war, and the French in turn used them during the war in Indochina (which, even more ironically, was again fought by a lot of Germans, e.g. Waffen-SS troopers who had enlisted with the French foreign legion. In Germany, the battle of Dien Bien Phu in 1954 has come to be known as "the last battle of the Waffen-SS". The number of German soldiers there was probably exaggerated, but there may well be a kernel of truth in it)
In my insignificant opinion: Two of the most amazing pistols that Ian has exhibited. Now I want a Mauser. Drat!
I would not be surprised if Forgotten weapons will present us with an Italian pedaled pistol.
Extraordinarily good, so interesting and detailed, thank you
I've just found this video, so this comes late ...
The major reason for the german Mililtary to ask for a exposed barrel was that they had thousands of holsters for the Lugers and didn't want to buy thousands of new holsters, just because the pistols with a shrouded barrel wouldn't fit in them.
This is really interesting!
Notice I couldn't possibly have watched the video yet, but already know it'll be interesting.
You can watch them early on Full30.com, if you're impatient enough ;)
You have to check it with German historians, but the exposed barrel was if a projectile ruptured the barrel, it would not destroy the slide, and the pistol could still be fired as a last resort. It may have been to make them in fact not firable, but easily repairable by simply replacing the barrel; if the slide was deformed, it is very possible that the whole weapon is destroyed if the slide is no longer removable, or only by destroying the receiver. That's what I personally see as more realistic, but the reason I was told was the exposed barrel was a requirement because of munition rupturing the barrel.
Great video Ian. Very good presentation and explanation.
A shame they didn't adopt the Mauser, it looks great and much more refined than the Walter.
decades later, we got a beautiful Walther P5
damn gorgeous
The first model HSv is so incredibly modern
Looks like a nice design but a bit more complicated than necessary. Obviously it also needs a decock provision, even if its just manual by gripping the hammer. I saw right away that the grip shape and the sweep of the backstrap look more comfortable than the P38. I bet the blowback is a nice pistol- too bad it didn't take off. German pistols on the whole are very interesting, and i really like their compact blowbacks. I've always wanted a Mauser HSc for some reason. Great video as always. Thank you
Fruit loops and forgotten weapons are vital parts of a nutritious breakfast
6:55
that's very fortunate.....
The MAUSER is the more complex, but IMHO better pistol, and quite elegant looking! ;-) I'm kinda partial to Mauser. My dad carried a Mauser, HSv short barrel, I think a 380 cal. in the WWII Navy and liked it a lot.
God damn it Mauser. Produce that covered barel HSv again. It looks so good.
Very good video, once again thanks for having made it! You surely do rock :)
2 absolute beauties IMO. For my relatively small hands the p38 was kinda big chunk of steel, I'd love to shoot one of these narrower Mauser styles. (I know that'll never happen, but..)
I'm so dopey I didn't even realise that I've been living about 10 kilometers away from the Mauser Weapons Museum in Oberndorf for about two months. I gotta go there immediatly.
Really interesting. Thanks for sharing. Beautiful piece of engineering.
Wow, Ian always carries around a spare Tokareva Svt-40 and Walther P-38. Can't wait to find out what else he carries every day.
love your videos, I think I've seen them all now!
I'd like to see Ian's spare gun system.
Bags, a van, a truck?
Good looking pistols
Very nice looking pistols.
What a beautiful and (perhaps over) complicated design. I do believe this could not have come from any other culture.
What nice pistol designs. I like them. Maybe just a little bit complicated with the trigger mechanisms, but overall, I think these are excellent designs. It is a shame they never became popular enough. In fact, one of them never made it past the prototype.
C-proing😂 Love it! That Mauser should have been the choice if the actual design and technology would have been the issue of matter.
Nice video as always Ian:-) but missed out the part to show us how the recoil speing was working with the slide back on:-( very nice guns:-)
Good thing the heel catch was common bsck then...otherwise there'd be nowhere for the mag release when they changed to the Webley-style recoil spring to satisfy the exposed barrel requirement!
That Walter p38-like pistol looks beautiful
Every time Ian begins to disassemble a pistol, I yell "take the magazine out!"
Wow wish this had made it to production, just like the HSc it would have been a commercial success, but I suspect that Walther also had the connections which mauser didn't at the time.
By no means is it forgotten, but i would love to one day see a video on the Walther WA2000. Its just cool as hell.
These are NICE pistols.
Came back here from the Walther .45 video to see the trials models... I knew i have seen this some years ago...
Better take my heart pills for the "how much they sold for" vid on those two pistols.
Ooh, I like that HSv. Sad that that design didn't take hold.
Wow. Great video and fantastic pistol! I have an HSc and recognize the HSv's heritage. Sad that this weapon was not made commercially. The P38 was chosen because it was cheaper and easier to manufacture. The HSv must be more complicated to make (and certainly more parts) than the Luger it was to replace! I'd love to have one.
I think I'm ready to see forgotten weapons do everybody's favorite gunshow reject; the calico 9mm
very elegant pistol
The HSv might be a teensy little bit impractical but this pistol is so damn gorgeous! So cleverly thought out this, ze German engineering at its finest
beautiful pistols
The HSv kinda looks like something you'd expect to see in a Bioshock game. And the exposed barrel was probably chosen, because it's just so 1900s German and cool.
I know it was a joke but if Liam told me he every day carries a P38 I'd believe him.
What is advantage of exposed barell? Beside weight, better balance maybe? Very interesting piece this gun, and exellent video as usually. You are pampering us, Ian.
"It all goes 'pleh' and comes apart..."
Love these types of videos!!!
The exposed barrels that would cut down on weight a little bit. Unless doing so causes extra wait to be added in the other parts of the gun. Atleast thats how I see it, since if equipment can be lighter weight that's always a good thing for the soldiers and logistics.
But going to save bookmark this video because that spring system I find very interesting and worth keeping note of, even thou not really unique but uncommon enough i've never heard of it..
Awesome video as always.:D Super interesting.:D
Just a guess but they probably wanted an exposed barrel to hopefully use the same holster and or to maintain a uniformity of appearance.
Neat firearm.
1st Great video. 2nd Wow very complex machining and good steel required! Not suitable for military use in that form. 3rd. love the idea of the recoil spring(s) set up, but they must be highly stressed too. Lastly This is one I would never get to see... Thank you
You mentioned the magazine release on the HSv being a heal release perhaps being another army requirement? When you compared the trigger assembly of the HSc the HSv, I noticed that the HSv's two claws on the recoil springs would have traveled right where the HSc's button release was, so that change might have been to make the exposed barrel possible.
Ian you're hilarious ha love ya work mate
He always carry a spare gun of any type xD
Thank you Gun Jesus.....
I would say the only word that makes sense in case of the "v" must be "Versuch" or "Versuchswaffe" because thats the only word makes sense with a "V" in it. Versuch means like trial or experimental. But i dont know what my country men had in mind back then.
...exactly, that is what the V stands for!
I love your videos Ian and all the background knwoledge you provide to them. But ther is one thing that i can't help: I just love the way you pronaunce german words. As an native german speaker it sometimes sound likes some heavy accent from Austria or something like that. Please dont take that as an offence it is one of the littel things i always look forwards to if you review a german gun.
Keep doing what you do and have a nice day