They sucker you into paying $4000
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.พ. 2025
- The synth on a chip.
The Alfa RPAR AS3394 is a complete analog (VCO) synth on a chip. Just like the CEM 3394 of old. Paired with an envelope and a LFO (or two), which you can do in both software or hardware, you have all you need for 1 voice of analog polyphony.
I got this chip for $7USD just because I only bought one. If you buy in bulk, the price is much lower.
So for around 60 bucks you're well on your way to an 8-voice analog poly synth.
So why in the heck are manufacturers charging $4000 for their flagship synths? Some charge even more. Because they can.
Espen Kraft says NO!
The Minimoog has been made for over 40 years. It's the same as ever. No development costs, it's all right there. Put together the components and sell it. Of course, the gold bars inside up the price to over $5000 when you cash it out.
Behringer uses chips like this (Coolaudio) in their hardware and their prices is more than a quarter of their competitors. The greed of some companies knows no limits.
Your 400 dollars worth of a Eurorack module has electronics components worth 30 bucks inside. So you pay around 350 bucks for some aluminium plates and sockets.
Espen Kraft says NO!
Find my music here:
Bandcamp: espenkraft.ban...
No, d00d. I've designed and built synths, and also played with the CEM3394. Nobody is charging $4k for a stack of 3394s. They sound OK, but are only of use for fixed architecture VCO->VCF->VCA analogs. Vintage synths with them (like olde Sequential MAX) relied upon slow 8-bit microcontrollers to generate ADSR envelopes which were low-res and too slow for techno. That's a more valid comparison, spending $200 naking a cheap DIY polysynth with these versus one readymade for $500-600.
For Curtis chips, the 3394 is low-end. No routing options, limited modulation sources, generic sound. If I was going to make a decent polysynth with readymade chips blocks I would use a 3340-based VCO, that multimode VCF chip (3372?) and maybe SSM2056 ADSR. That already puts it far more costly than 8x $7 for a pile of 3394s. More at issue is that the electronics are negligable cost compared to building a synth with a robust chassis, pots, switches, and other hardware. Nevermind actual engineering, fabrication and other labor. That's only to built it - nevermind marketing, service, and all those other costs.
Can you make a DIY synth cheaper than you can buy? Yes! Go for it! But then you learn where the money goes. You can make something decent for maybe half the price. But you soak up the hidden costs, and it doesn't easily scale if you want to turn it into a business. Don't let that discourage you, this is in many ways a golden age for synth DIY. But there's IMO more inspiring ways to spend that money, time, and effort than replicating the most generic polysynths of the 80s.
That's true. There is many hidden costs to designing, making and marketing a readymade easy to use Synth no matter if it's a true old school Analog design or an advanced VA synth made in software or with Gate arrays. And to a good engineer old Polysynth's is kinda easy to emulate with todays technology, just as you can emulate just about any 8 and 16bit computer in a fairly cheap Gate array. Do it sound and feel like the real thing, maybe not but it gets the job done and if you can't get or afford the real thing why bother that the result isn't a one to one identical replica sound and feel like, most of us won't have the original to point out the difference and in a mix it doesn't matter anyway. and in the end for most people it's about getting the things at a fair price, cause if you are a collector or afficionado with the big wallet no one is gonna go for a replica if you can just buy the CS80 for the 80k it usually go for online. I still think there is many great modern Synths that can be very fun to use, even many of them comes in small boutiqe formats and different quality products. If you have just ONE good controller you can always use that for playing any modern Synth.
Hello!
Can I be right that it's possible to make a "standard" for an analog polysynth architecture in general? I mean, it's like to make it very close to home PC constructors which we have now.
Thus it will be possible to implement an online "constructor" which will be gathering orders from many customers to bring them many different semi-DIY synthesizers.
About semi-DIY I mean that it will has a typical CPU core: STM32 maybe or something better... FPGA with several options to be able to control different amount of blocks in voices.
Do you understand my idea?
Thanks. Interesting write up.
The underlying physical feel, quality and layout of controls is underestimated on older synths/keyboards (80's & pre). Looking for a Roland SH-5/7, but realize the price post pandemic have gone financial asset hyperinflation collectors items post pandemic. Saw Behringer has come out with a clone (MS-5?) ... sounds great, but when looking at the specs and reviews it is obvious that it is another beast. Starting with the Key bed, velocity sensitive ! What the hell ! Already there it breaks it for me. The lovely instantaneous trigger of sound on key down/switch off is not there, it will come a while later on key down/impact. The feel and quality of the resistance ofthe mechanism and springs. Likely it transfers to the feel of the bender stick. Less keys. Different layout of control buttons.
These days it seems the best value for money, regarding a obsessive level of audio interest, is with a high quality key bed/controller, hooked up to an iPad. There is some next level sounding stuff there at garage sale prices. Korg and Moog seems to be the main players in the classical space.
materials are still cheaper than what you claim. a fully automated production line cuts labour costs too. this is why i am behringer only nowadays
I'm a product designer, and I just want to add that potentiometers are crazy expensive! People think the ICs would cost a lot, but it's really the electromechanical components like pots and switches.
A mere two days in to 2025😂 He must be a nightmare in the supermarket! "Hey why do these vegetables cost 30 Krone ? I'm not paying that! A packet of carrot seeds only costs 3 Krone!" (Grabs the store microphone and shouts "ESPEN KRAFT SAYS NOOOOOO!")
While other supermarkets charge 50% less? That is the point Kraft is making.
@@RebeccaTurner-ny1xx sure, but he's missing the point (well to be honest I don't believe for one moment he's genuinely missing the point. He knows exactly what he's doing - he's not stupid or naive. He is however trying to be controversial on purpose). There's a market and price range for people who are happy and able to pay top dollar for an aspirational, desirable brand. Same with clothes. Same with cars. You don't have to pay $4k for a synth. Or for a coat! Or $400k for a car. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with there being a market at that higher level. There are cheaper alternatives out there for us all. What a dull world we'd be living in, if the most expensive car was $10k and the most expensive coat was $20. Sounds a bit like.....communism.
@@iixorb There is no privately owned property in communism. Why do people who keep using this term refuse to look it up? 🤦🏻♂️🤣
great idea too, grow your own vegetables without roundup poison, without neural toxic in the skin of lettuces, apples, parsley etc etc
@@cortical1 very true. But fact is that both Communism AND Liberalism failed big time. None of the models work if we are going to survive as a specie before we get the tech to colonize other worlds because we destroyed our origin. And we would most likely fail anyway as we learned nothing fom destroying our own planet.
7 Dollars for this chip? It's just a bit of plastic and sand worth 2 cents.
@@janhelmle8173 Well that’s a dumb comment.
@@symbiat0 No, that's off-beat / sarcastic humour. Did that fly over your head?
@poykehmusic 😁 👍🏽 We good.
@@symbiat0 Like the video here
:D
I don’t want to pay 25kr for a cucumber ! It’s 98 percent water !!
The best comment! 😅
No worries… in a couple of years that will be a bargain price for that amount of water!!!
Now we're talking!
Then plant some seeds or take cuttings and harvest cucumbers a month later. They are one of the easiest crops and will even grow and fruit behind a window in winter. A cutting will root in a zipped bag within days. It's hardly any labour. They are overpriced so the joke is on you.
@@rjones1357 Exactly, ask Nestle!
Will Espen Kraft be able to manufacture and release a cost-effective alternative? Espren Kraft says "NO", but he will make a moaning video.
Espen Kraft is such an ignoramus that it beggars belief 🤦♂
- HALF of the money goes to music stores and distribution.
- Generally another half has to go to all your fixed costs (R&D, manuals, patches, programming, making promo videos, etc), unless you're a high volume business (and only Behringer is a true high volume business in the synth world).
- The individual components like knobs, mod wheels, FATAR keybeds, connectors, sliders, LEDs, LED drivers, screens, PCBs, enclosures, buttons, ARM system-on-a-chip's, ribbon cables, power supplies, op amps, passives, ADCs, DACs, multiplexers, screws and mounting posts, yes wood endpieces, transport padding, boxes, etc all do add up in the end. It's easy to underestimate the number of components (it's in the 3 digits).
- Some of these come in more than one reliability grade and that inflates the bill of materials as well... This why Clavia is Clavia and gets used onstage. Anything custom (like kneecaps) is also more expensive.
Yes thank you, folks, here is someone with more than just a superficial understanding of the economics..
I would disagree with 50% music stores and distribution, as these days all is mainly supplied online and both music stores work at cutthroat margins these days . Unless you have some custom exotic "knobs", the list of the of all the electronic components you have listed there are pennies and are wildly available. I would agree, you cannot compare Behringer with Clavia, but Behringer modules have come a long way to be dismissed as a joke/toys, and they can prove it with the price and business model. FRATAR keybeds are still expensive, but not more expensive than good old DX7 keyboard that was used for many synths (like Korg M1) back in the 80s... Find me a the best MIDI controller keyboard for over £1500 these days?
"unless you're a high volume business".
Moog, Sequential and Oberheim have all been bought out by "high volume business[es]". Focusrite PLC and inMusic Brands, Inc are not "low volume" businesses.
Still doesn't add up. There are plenty of feature packed synths from big manufacturers that must still need 90% of the components and costs you listed, but retail at about 25% of the cost.
The fact is a lot of people are paying a huge premium for branding.
Now, in light of your logic, explain the remarkable price difference between the sonically similar PRO-800 and the Prophet 5 desktop. I found that all the extras thrown in to bump up the price have nothing to do with improving the sound. And don't bother mentioning the kitch-ly named "Vintage knob" which is simply software-macro stuff compared to the extra 3 voices on the PRO-800 which actually do improve the sound rather than degrade it.
The ICs are always a small minority of the cost though. The case and power supply and even all the knobs and stuff always cost a lot more. Behringer is able to make hardware as cheap as they do because they're a big business with decades of specialisation in low-cost manufacturing. If you're just a guy in a garage with an idea then you can't make it that cheap.
I dont think you understand the agrument. He is not talking about some dude in a garage building a synth. He is shaming the big names that overprice their products.
@@zeitgeist909 He did bring up Eurorack in the video.
@@SkullDraizerbig companies in Eurorack too.
@zeitgeist909 most of those guys aren't doing what Behringer is doing either. They have higher development costs, higher component costs and higher labour costs. Behringer is mostly copying old designs and then building them in quantity in China. I really like what they're doing but you can't expect everyone to be like that. It's a particular niche and they do it well enough that it's hard for anyone else to do it the same way.
If it's metal casing, it's tough, but if you want to make your own minimoog in your garage and know what you're doing, you aren't going to pay nearly as much as the $5k they charge, all parts and wood included.
I like it better when Espen doesn’t make videos with the mindset of a 5 years old, to be honest.
Well, you should design one, test it, refine it, test it again, build it, promote it and finally try to sell it at a profit... Then let us know how you got on...Happy new year!
Forgot to mention providing service and support.
He could just make a blueprint and sell it lol. Breadboards ,arduino, elegoo…. The possibilities are endless.
I have two words for you: Berhinger 2600. Sorry, that's a word and a number, but I hope you get what I'm saying. Korg sells their 2600 for £1K. Berhrigher sells it for £400. How? Espen Kraft says NO! And I agree with his message.
This guy is getting old. From what I can tell he's never done anything of any substance or vision within music. Looks like he's decided to become a troll and try to damage hard working companies to get himself likes. What a loser.
As if the people who build synths don't know the correct values, etc...
Ok Einstein, now buy a proper power supply, a cool Fatar Keybed, 50 or more quality pots, inputs and output sockets (don’t go cheap on this please), add a screen (oh and don’t forget to design a cool and ergonomic UI while you’re at it), make sure you find the right suppliers for all this, the ones you never have to negotiate with or check their work), develop all the logic behind presets, audio and midi routing, as you seem to be so smart I assume there would be zero bugs to fix, so that’s cool and cheap. Moreover because of this, there would be no after sale support to account for into the price because everything would be developed so well out of the box. Now I assume you will also paint the front panel by hand so it’s nice and cheap (how much does paint cost these days, that’s virtually nothing right?). Add just a cheap cardboard box (let’s forget about the foam or anything, that’s clearly overrated) plus I assume you would find a package that would fit your synth perfectly, because synth box sizes are all standard these days. So Paint the box by hand to save on costs, make sure you include those US and European conformity logos that are clearly meaningless and cost nothing to manufacturers as everyone knows. Websites, socials and communications you don’t need because you’re Espen Kraft. It’s also fair to say that because of that, all retailers would sell your synth for free, and pay themselves for the shipping, as anyway every retailer can afford a $50 inflate boat to send a couple synths overseas, I mean come on. Oh, and we need a manual please, in 6 languages if possible.
Now thanks for all this valuable and true info you give us, I can’t wait to hear the nice music you are going to put out with your $7 chip.
Oh did I mention that you obviously don’t have to account for your 2 years worth of work into the synth price to come out with all of this? Because music is passion, what’s a few hours of your time? Right?
You think that's bad, the moog ladder filter is just transistors and resistors and a solid bodied electric guitar is mostly pieces of wood held together with glue.
So let Espen cut down a tree for free, and take it from there. He appears to know nothing about what it takes to design and manufacture a synthesizer when putting out rubbish videos like this.
metal, ceramic and silicon are basically rocks in different forms. You just have to squish them differently. Basically, synths & cars should be free.
There’s a guy on TH-cam that built his own Jupiter 8 clone.. ask him.
Synth DIYer here. No, it is not so easy 😂
You have to add a microcontroller based system to this chip to do anything. Moreover, VCO in this chip is not perfect and needs a software correction. But I accidentally have ten of them, have to do something with them 😂😂😂
I’ve been tempted to do a Dirtywave M8 headless with a teensy. This seems to be the best bang for buck synth DIY project for beginners. That said, not everyone is open to using trackers.
MCUs are pennies now
@@AndrossUT f***ing gas lighters! WTF have YOU built?
@@AndrossUT What do you think design and programming costs? Also, the MCU used in a good 'analog' synth is NOT PENNIES, instead they are many dollars and sometimes many, many dollars. The chips that cost pennies turn lights off and on or operate key-fob remote controls; they're hopelessly underpowered to do what the MCU in a synth does. I'm an embedded systems developer and I've only been programming MCUs since 1988. How about you?
@@AndrossUT Hardware is cheap. Salaries to software and hardware engineers is not.
The AS3394 is based on the CEM3394 from the 80s. That was used on a couple of the Akai AX series and Sequential like Six Track and Split8. It's single VCO-VCF-VCA on a chip. But to make a whole synth you need a lot more than that.
Sure. 4,000 bones worth?
The challenge here is to list all of the other required components, each with their accurate price, and show how it all adds to $4,000. I'm still not seeing anyone rise to the challenge.
@@cortical1indeed, the total parts cost is usually $400-1000 instead (ironically keybeds can be the most expensive component depending on source).
@@cortical1 you forget R&D costs, spillage costs, FCC costs ... really you are totally out of your element here.
@@julianmorrisco Try to start a design and manufacturing company and find out. Tell us how you could conduct business in 2025 at your price point. I'm waiting to hear how it went.
The steel for a car is also just a few dollars. But is not a car. Put your 60$ parts in front of you and see how much you can do alone with these. You have no keyboard, pots, control surface what so ever yet. You haven't paid a penny to the development engineers, labor for manufacture, distribution, case work, keyboard, software engineers, stores, taxes, import fees etc.
Yes but, isn't 4000$ just a little bit more than what the asking price should be ?
so how did I only pay £400 for my Behringher 2600? When Korg and others sell them for multiple thousands? Espen Kraft says NO! And I agree, 100%.
As others make clear, this is about companies leveraging their reputation to charge far more than a fair price. Still, if people are willing to pay more for the name, that's their loss. They do it for diamonds, perfume, haute couture, cars... same for so-called high-end synths.
@schmitzbeats6102 wow, you sound offended. Obviously if this fella be buying up SEM chips he is most likely well aware he has to use them to build something. But the question remains, does venture capitalist grifters and bloated lives of CEOs justify USA not being able to afford rent, healthcare, bridges, and not too long from now pilots , yes actual real pilots risk being replaced , there are people who would scoop out your brain and replace it with a chat bot if they could. And you would probably be happy as long as “ they are just doing their job” How dare anyone ask any questions!!!!! It is sad you folk become so deeply offended and rush to defend such leaky wasteland yuck. It is fine to over pay for leaky profitability BUT, 15% of our gdp going to provide stability, vitality, education, healthcare, housing… oh hell no, instant civil war! My very very great grandpa probably did not have that in mind when he signed the constitution for the USA. When Americans jump on people for asking questions, when we enforce our narrow dogmatic slumber and myopic brainless consumerism and push our leaky dystopian wasteland capitalism and distorted concepts of how it must be because that is how it *always has been, it really doesn’t achieve anything good.
How much does it cost to make a Rolex? Its a Simple watch by the end of the day... And the market will naturally tell if it will survive or not with the defined prices...
Great, I'm looking forward to the Espen Kraft budget synth. When's it going to be available?
Probably 1983 or maybe 1984… Also it is going to be a flagship product and not a budget synth!!!
@@rjones1357 😂 Excellent comment!
Sure the chip could cost $7 - now add to that the supporting circuitry. Multiply that by the number of voices you want and then add microprocessor you need to run it. and the multiplexing circuitry. And then the front end encoders and keyboard arrays and the fabrication of a case. The PCB CAD tools for professional design and board prototyping.
Then case fabrication and silk screen printing and boxing and shipping and marketing.
Suddenly your $7 becomes a couple of thousand - and even more to you because you are not a manufacturer who gets trade pricing and bulk discount for ordering thousands of components.
Add it up it's not as simple as you think.
If it were everyone would be doing it and Roland et al would have gone out of business years ago.
The part cost is just part of the cost. The engineering costs to design the product can get expensive, and they don't sell 100,000 of these synths. Maybe not even 10,000. And then they have to keep the doors open of the business. All that has to be factored into the cost. It's easy to overlook the cost of just doing business.
@@michaelbauers8800 same thing with bicycles. ten grand for a bike that does the same thing as one costing a few hundred. Parts are a tiny part of the cost, the design is what they charge you for
+employee wages, ongoing IT infrastructure and support costs, cost of having an office etc.
Cost to populate the boards with components and assemble also varies a lot. Behringer invest in very modern automated machines, that smaller manufacturers cannot afford
If Espen only cares about the BOM total for costing a synth, then there's always the DIY route.. then you have to factor in the cost of how valuable your own free time is
Also whenever Espen comes out with a price it's with 25% Norwegian sales tax slapped on. What are manufacturers supposed to do about that?
@@Wagoo Absolutely - setting up yourself you're going spend best part of a grand on a decent scope for monitoring/calibration and a pro-microscope for all that fiddly SMD work.
Plus a fatar keybed ain't nothing.
Tell me you don't understand consumer electronics without telling me you don't understand consumer electronics.
Sounds soooo easy. So, why don't YOU go do it, Espen Kraft? You go start up a company, take on the legal risk, put YOUR capital at risk, create channels to promote and distribute the product, and what about support? Will YOU support the product when things go wrong? Will YOU create the manuals and manage all the legal shenanigans between different countries?
Do you think that people should only charge for the cost of components? How about labor? How much should labor be paid? How much profit should the person who put their savings at risk to start the company and to employ people be "allowed" to make?
The real answer to whether products are overpriced or not is whether a sufficient number of other people are willing to pay the price asked. If not, then the price will drop or the company will go bankrupt. Free people can speak with their money.
Maybe we will see an era of "custom designed" synthesizers soon? I mean that it's like you can order a cool looking metal parts online (folded or CNC-ed) for a fraction of cost that was ~10-20 years ago. Maybe it will be possible about synths too. It can be a typical online "constructor" where you define the main CPU, the mechanical sizes and everything else usual for synthesizers.
Just look how the most of 100-400$ Behringer synths looks! They're not something unique in the core. They use the same STM32 core as the main controller for the analog parts. That's it. Around this you can create a whole "forest" of oscillators, filters, envelopes, LFOs, fx blocks and etc. The main limitation - a case sizes.
PCB making is almost robotized now.
I think that even a half-ready synth (just solder pots, sliders, triggers, big LEDs and buttons) will be a real deal for many artists and hobbyists.
@@KiR_3d Custom guitars afaik cost somewhere in the 6000$ to 10000$+ range depending on the maker... I think doing custom synths probably easily gets in that range, not for the materials but more the new programming and all the labor... Also it would probably be likely to come with no presets!
So we're gonna control and record that chip with our imaginary chassis?
No need. You can hold the chip in your hand and imagine the sounds.
Dude these recent videos are getting kinda stoopid
You’re an educated man Espen, I’m sure you understand everything that goes into a flagship analogue synth to either make it sound as close to the “original” or unique and different all with the intention of selling and making a prophet. (Pun intended). So I can only deduce this video is intended to provoke a reaction to get more views and comments. Click bait if you will. If that’s the case it’s a bit insulting to your subscribers. You’re not alone though. There seems to be a propensity amongst some music creators to create content around more contentious topics rather than create music, share knowledge or review a piece of kit. Venus Theory has migrated more toward this over the last couple of years, but is bloody good at it and does his research before a rant. Why don’t you hook up one of these chips and get a rudimentary synth going and let us hear if it’s any good? Hook up with “ look mum No computer” if you don’t have the chops yourself. Anyone else reckon a vid like that would be interesting?
About a thousand times more interesting than this, at least.
" I’m sure you understand everything that goes into a flagship analogue synth "
Espen hasn't got the foggiest idea. His last rant he was an idiot fest of lying, fantasizing freely and slandering tiny synth companies.
We got CLICK BAITED! This is a silly rant with no thought, substance, or valid investigation in it. So "Espen Kraft" synths with 8 voice polyphony with a keyboard and case will be available soon for $200! Yeah, right...
maybe not 200 but probably in 400, BUT NEVER IN 4.000 € as big and greedy companies did every time, dont be a dumb, even you can save lottttt of money
@@carloko08 And who is paying the wages for building, say, 3 or 4 machines a week? Who is paying for the rent on the building per month? Who is paying for the marketing? Who is pay for the administration team? Who is paying for the research and development time? Who is paying for faulty devices returned? And how many of these devices are you expecting to sell to make up for the ongoing cash flow required to stay in business? Yeah, don't be dumb... 🧐
I mean Nymphes is like $500 already, I can't see why that'd remain an unusually low price
@@nosville22 Where's the keyboard? Where's the power supply certification? Where's the RF regulations and certification? What happens when it goes out of tune or needs repair? What about the sliders and switches, how good are they after 3 or 4 years of abuse and are they accurate/reliable? Is it truly analogue or "fake digital analog" (like a VST on a processor)? What about service and repair? Do I have to send my unit back to them for repair or is there a local company that can give me a short turnaround time? Can it handle the rigors of transporting to various gigs without breaking?
Look, Behringer do a cheap imitation of things but it is just that - and I'm not even mad at them for it. They have at least put some effort into reliability but sacrificed a little quality where it isn't necessary to the functionality. To them, near enough is good enough, that is what your paying for. Even the "Mona Lisa" painting isn't worth the paint or canvas it is exhibited on, is it? People will pay for what they value (or see value in - to them). Why do car or motorbikes have differing values? Why don't we just have single-seater cars for going to work?
@@nosville22 Looks like Espen is blocking me! Well done chump.
I'm not Espen Kraft and I'm happy about it.
just because Penguin Classics can reprint Moby Dick for $5.00 doesn’t mean it cost Herman Melville $5.00 to write it.
When did Espen get so bitter? I like happy Espen.
To me something seems to have happened when he found a cheep computer inside his prophet X or whatever it was. Like he missed out on the digital revolution of the 80's.
Oh, ALFA chip. I was working for a company which cooperated with that factory. And I visited their chip production line several times, even had meetings with lead engineers.
I heard that Erica Synths are also cooperating with them, because both located in Riga.
But speaking about the topic. Chip is just a module, you still need to fire it up, by designing PCB according to the datasheet.
This includes power delivery, managing IO, etc.
RnD for this costs money and engineering IS VERY expensive. Add housing, pots, knobs, buttons, LEDs, screen, firmware programming, costs of assembly, storage, logistics, product support, etc - this where the additional price is coming from.
And this is why VSTs cost less in general. Production doesn't involve all physical aspects.
The obvious reply to this nonsense is: "Hey what an Idea! Please start a company making these and show us the reciepts on your business. It seems like you will definitely become filthy rich doing this!" Then report back with the books.
One min this guy is babbling on about vintage gear sat in a room of about 200 synths and next we get this tripe
Uli bought this guy
Coming from a 50+ year background in electronics and 8 years of synths, I can confidently say and so would Yoda … “one chip a synthesizer does not make!” $7 is beyond grossly over simplified and I think YOU know why.
Prices on synths run the whole gamut from less than $100 to $4K, many of which are below $1K. One has to take into account all electronic components, PCBs, hardware, cases, keyboards, etc. You simply cannot buy and make a synth for $7. So when you boil it down …
The value and contribution of this video is $0. If you want to make a point, prove your observations by building the cheapest synth out of a single chip, provide the schematics, BOM, and the time to build in a video that at least has more merit and educational value than this one.
The 3394 was designed for low-cost polysynths and arcade video game cabinets. Sure it has its own sound, but no synth designed around it will ever sound like any OB, or any Prophet, or Moog, or Roland.
Also: the Matrix-6/1000 does NOT use the 3394. It uses the 3396, which has two DCOs and (to my ears) a much better-sounding filter.
You are so full of 💩😂--- it's just an oscillator. It's the filters that make those sounds you hold in such high regard.
@@HazeAnderson a cursory google search would have revealed for you that the 3394 is a VCO/VCF/VCA combo on a chip. The 3396 is two DCOs, a VCF and VCA on a chip. And yes, entire synths are built around these.
@@HazeAnderson Maybe you should google the data sheet before commenting.
Ok. Because you’ve grossly over simplified, Espen. One chip may cost $7. Now what about the components and pcb that make its life support system? Another £35 in parts. We’re now at 5 times the price and we’ve not started. Who designs this? I presume you have no idea how to connect this chip, or its friends, or how to get this magic software to provide LFO or envelope control? How many hours go into the design of these things? Or perhaps engineers should work for free? Then, how about the power supply, the case it sits in, the keyboard (heaven forbid they fit a cheap one or reviewers like you will slag it off), midi hardware, in/out sockets? Want a few hands on controls or a nice screen? What about program memories and the hardware/software to digitise slider and knob inputs? You’re usually good but this is drivel. Sorry.
Even if designing a synth is expensive, you don’t need to redesign it constantly . They should improve the deaign bit by bit. Every synth is made up of Oscillators, LFOs, filters, gradually add features, no synth should cost more than 1000 USD.
Espen is sold to Uli
I'm waiting for the Espen Kraft Deluxe Analog synth that sells for less than $1000.00 to come out!
;-)
What a wonderful little controller.
Thanks for sharing!
I pay for water service but I could just catch rain water and use that instead. Ok so now me says no. I'm me and you're not.
this guy harbors bad ideas, false assumptions, and juvenile notions about business finance and pricing.
Eloquently and accurately stated assessment. Spot on.
@@Peter_S_ I don't want to pay $300,000 for a Ferrari, so I don't buy Ferrari's. But who builds a TH-cam channel on the half-brain ideas that "Cars should not cost $400K!" There is no "should" is pricing; things cost whatever a company can get away with.
"I'm Espen Kraft and you're not", I know... You cant hold my beer....... ;)
If people are willing to pay $4,000, then it is worth $4,000.
I can sell you my house for 100 million euros.
Solid point actually, it's how I feel about vintage synths, cars, watches, art in general.
Seems like Espen is regularly attempting to engage audiences by appealing to fear and and anger and has made a channel with a new darker aesthetic in mind. He's certainly smart enough to understand that this strategy will generate more views.. kind of a bummer, really liked his vids about making tunes and enjoying old gear.
I'm now unsubscribing. Appealing to fear and and anger through ignorance and misunderstanding may get clicks, but it only drives ignorance in the marketplace and makes it harder for people trying to create quality product. Espen has made the conversion to useless tabloid level content. Sad to see but other creators already fill the gap easily.
We will patiently await while you design and manufacture an analog hardware synth and then navigate how the music industry reseller network actually works.
Its just a chip. Add midi in-out-through, or a keyboard, filter controls, the pcb to connect everything, the switches, knobs and buttons to control everything and a case, screen, power source and then figure out how it all fits and it gets expensive. Add it n marketing, salaries and warehouse costs, logistics, distribution contracts and worker salaries, insurance, and so on. Making something like this is just part of the process. Making it sound nice and work properly is a whole other thing. Getting it into the hands of customers is even more challenging. For the DIY market, this is amazing, but it will still take hours of work to build an actual synth around the chip.
Seem to recall that at some point the cost of producing a song was : 10 % for the actual recording and making of the track, 90 % to make the video for it (i.e. marketing).
I think you need to speak with Josh Scott for that answer
Preach the gospel!!!
Another lukewarm hot take from the guy who was like, "You can just recap the failing PSU in your Yamaha TX816!!!"
it costs $4000 cause you don't know how to put together the other $3500 yourself
If Espen believes he can make a cheap polysynth he should do it. I frankly believe he’s just trolling for views.
No, he makes no such claim. He compares the likes of Sequential or Korg to Behringer.
He doesn't have to do it. He's simply pointing out the part costs. I'm not sure why this is upsetting to anyone.
In the 80s I was 13 years old, my mind was constantly thinking about circuitry when I awoke, at school, going to sleep and in dreams. I can not recall the chip number I found at The now defunct electronics retail company "Radio Shack" and expect it's this chip you're showing. I made a crude device in a metal box with a speaker, switch's, volume pot & later sold it to KERN AM Radio station & it was used for commercial sounds & later used by most over 9 radio stations in the area. Enjoy
Espen Craft says no! Espen Craft will learn you build a full functional device here in YT!
The Video totally ignores the cost of certification emf-testing warranty, and legal fees involving to put a product to market the cost of the parts a often negligible
Oddly, Behringer manage all of that and still undercut by a large margin.
I identify as a 5 year old. And agree with aspen. Now if you'll excuse me. My chicken nuggets and chocolate milk are ready.
Enjoy yourself - that’s about as good as it gets!
Five-year-olds could get his name correct, though. Maybe three?
@@cortical1 I'm a "special" 5 year old
Will there be a new video series where you build a polyphonic analog synth from scratch using these chips and a microcontroller?
Rent, salaries, taxes, utilities, health insurance, retirement, regular insurance, R&D, supplies, customer service, accountants, lawyers, export tax, import tax, storage costs, shipping costs, retailer margins, advertising & marketing, etc.
Behringer can do it because they manufacture in Asia with low costs and wages, and they manufacture on a massive scale (20,000+ units). Yet even Behringer struggles to supply on time (another cost!).
the problem is that most musicians know very little about electronics and as such are vulnerable to unscrupulous marketing men selling over priced shiny toys.
when i see such rants, i feel it is time to unsubscribe.
I did after the first of such stupid rants a few months ago, along with aggressive responses in the comments, and only came in to check if things had improved. Nope. Guy has lost it, and IMO the community doesn't need such naive pointless negativity.
Nice. Now make 8 voice polysynth and tell us for how much would you sell it
I'm a five-year-old Golden Retriever. I believe what this human is saying! 🐾
Good boy!
@PeranMe *barks towards 4k$+ synths and wags his tail happily 🐕
Here’s the corrected version with proper grammar:
If all synth components use this chip and it’s easy to craft a good synth for the finishing product, why do they all sound different? Because you have to invest in R&D! R&D is expensive, not to mention marketing, supplier fees, and so on. And please don’t do the “ESPEN KRAFT SAYS NOOOOOO!” thing… it’s cringe as hell! you're old, unless you have tiktok and you dance for it...
wood is one of the rarest materials in the universe, i think we should be paying diamond price tag for it.
Man, Espen seems to have been blackballed after discovering his fancy synth is actually a cheap computer in a fancy box.
At 0:55 I initially heard him say, "Chicks like these," and I was thinking wow, my town is really behind the times
I've been in the electronic musical instrument business since the mid-'70s. I hear this one all of the time.
"please talk to us as if we were..... golden retrievers"
Kk. FETCH!!!! SIT!!!! LIE DOWN!!!! WALKIES!!!!!!
Is it the wood cheeks that’s filled with gold inside 😭🏴☠️🤖
Now the job is to design a synthesizer on the basis of this little chip. Actually, for the envelope and LFO, cheap 12bit DAC options exist for the Arduino platform - the trick would rather be the sample rate. But still, a sample rate as slow as in the digitally controlled envelopes of the legendary Juno106 should be easily possible. The Arduino should also be strong enough to handle voice management and MIDI input.
However, one would soon find out how tedious it is to develop and construct a surface with knobs and buttons, and this is what all the fun is about in the end. There are enough inexpensive synth VSTs available, we don't need analog at all any more except for the user interface and the noise and distortion.
The atmega 328 (arduino uno) is about 50 to 100 times, faster than these 6809 chips which handled the things around the cem 3394 ICs based synths back in the days.
I managed to sample audio up to 15khz, done a 24bin fast Hartley transform with that sample and put the result onto a TV screen with a 25hz update rate (pal TV standart).
A simple 328 is clocked at 16Mhz on the uno, and up to 20Mhz of you DIY with the MCU alone. Has 32 registers and hardware based a/d on chip as well as ram and flash built in i/o including communication protocol handling on chip.
The old 6809 CPU doesn't have anything like that. But needs external rom/ram and i/o, has 6 registers and can be clocked up to 4Mhz.
And a 328 today cost a fraction compared to the 6809 back then.
No need to have a dedicated DAC around simply ad another 328 as an intelligent parallel r2r DAC communication over i2c.
But one needs to write the software. And this is where money comes and goes....
A simple vco, vcf, vca on a chip won't on a chip won't cut it.
Furthermore when the design is based on the late 70s. And we all know how these chips sound. 3394/3396 is nothing special.
So why should anyone invest time and money in an outdated design for more than only personal entertainment..?
Espe should do it first and then ranting about others. When he's done with his first million in sales or revenue. 😉
@@tubical71 The DACs on the Arduino are only 10bit. External i2c DACs exist with 12bit or 16bit, also special kits ready for Arduino boards.
I think it doesn't matter that the design of that synth chip is outdated. People also buy Behringer remakes of outdated synths. Actually we haven't seen so much of real innovation in the synth landscape anyways after sampling took over.
An Arduino-based synth with that chip would make sense as a community effort with open source code. And someone could sell DIY kits for it. It wouldn't make so much sense doing this on your own and only for your own. Several related projects exist around certain DSP chips.
"We are a;Grumh! and you're not."
Honestly Espen Kraft its hard to take this seriously... Have you ever run a business? Do you really think that all that goes into a complete synth is a handful of $7 chips? What exactly do you think happens? Order some chips, duct tape them together, drop them off at a store in a trash bag and charge $4k per bundle?...
I am on board! EDIT - Wow, Espen, I think you have stirred the hornets nest!! I am with you tho. Espen Kraft says NO! And so do I!
Ok then, create a company and design a synth and name it after Espen... And do it : NOW..!
For every Espen Kraft that says no, 1000 Kespen Rafts say yes.
It is NOT a complete analog (VCO) synth on a chip.
Exactly. This is a convenient building block to make one particular flavour of synth when married with a huge number of additional support components.
@@Peter_S_ I want to reiterate HUGE number of additional support components. Not a beginner's chip at all, but extremely versatile. Great stuff for really learning how analog synthesis works.
This is silly. The non-mechanical electronic parts are the cheapest part of a synth. Add pots, switches, knobs, lights, a screen, a case, keys, small scale runs, and first world design labor. That's how you get to $4000. No one is making synths just for the money. All the required skills are more lucrative in other industries.
More price doesn't equal more better.
no one is making synths solely for the money, but if there's no money in it, only DIYers would make synths. I see this whole thing as hyperbole on Espen's part, but generally agree in the direction that if cheap parts are available, we should have cheap synths available, but I'm not holding my breath for an analog poly under $100.
or maybe this is all a big troll and Espen is bringing out his own line of inexpensive hardware to demonstrate he's not full of hot air.
If you want a cheap synth for the price of parts, get into DIY synths. Though there is an investment in a good soldering iron and other tools.
You're Espen Kraft and I'm... glad I'm not...
The chips this company makes are basically Curtis CEM clones. Slightly cheaper, probably no real sound difference.
They do have a AS3394E (E for extended) which is nicely flexible, you for example have an output for the oscillator, and two inputs for the filter, so you have a lot of flexibility there, like adding a waveshaper or noise inputs etc.
Behringer is a quarter of the Price but sound is a quarter of the others too 😂
paper and pencils are also cheap, but artists can charge whatever they want. The real question is weather or not people are willing to pay for something
The monophonic DIY Moog Mavis building kit is available for 285 EUR. That's the price of an 8-voice polyphonic Behringer Pro-800 during Black Week.
When Espen Kraft talks about himself like a 3 year old in third person, I too say no.
now build a Synthesizer!
A second oscillator and filter with 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-pole outputs would go a long way on a product like this, but there's still a lot more room for improvement.
No idea how some manufacturers get away with the high price tag. But Doepfer A-111-6 Mini Synth is an affordable monosynth and it's basically a Dark Energy III in a eurorack form ($155-$240). It's using the 3394 chip and it sounds great. Lots of sizzle in the filter section. There is a lot of component selection possible to adjust the parameters of the 3394, so it can make a very wide range of all analog synth voices. And it's compact enough that full polyphony is possible by using multiple chips.
But the drawback is you get what you get with the 3394. You can module the obvious parameters, but it doesn't have the flexibility of a modular synth. You can't patch it arbitrarily, it's just going to operate as a classic subtractive synth.
For manufacturing, I'd prefer all digital. It's easier to do QC and self-tests with an all digital environment. You can automate a lot of the tuning. Where analog systems, especially polyphonic synths, need a lot of careful component matching and calibration.
Come on, are you even serious about this? (Probably not 😂)
This chip is just one piece of electronics, which houses a VCO, VCA and VCF. I would have assumed this to be even cheaper (which it probably is, if you buy them at scales). But really, thats like saying a VST should cost nothing, because there is not even a single piece of electronics in it. The main costs come with development (not just some VCO and VCA, but the entire circuitry inlcuding midi ports, amplifiers, encoders, micro controllers, software development, etc.), then housing, assembly, quality assurance, marketing, distribution (even packaging, manuals, support, etc.) and tons of legal stuff. So what are you talking about?
Everything in this world costs as much as some fool is willing to pay for it.
A very public David Icke style breakdown.
Thank you Espen Kraft.
Now I need some schematics to build a synthesizer sound module .
You can say that about pretty much anything nowadays. Everything is so ridiculously overpriced. One simple answer....GREED. And as long as consumers keep paying the price it will keep going up. It is Greed on both the corporate and consumer level....a vicious circle of human greed that just keeps spinning.
But, and hear me out, what would it take to get Espen Kraft to say yes?
This video will only have validity when you sell all your non-B synths and make music with whatever else remains.
Now that I know such a thing exists, I might try to figure out how to build a synth voice around one of these...
you need supporting circuitry around the chip. Not insignificant.
This is a clone of the CEM3394 from December 1983, if not earlier. That's the oldest datasheet I have for them. This thing has existed since 1983 in the public. This 'new' part a rip-off of the Curtis design which is financed by a russian oligarch.
My Golden Retriever just aye my SID chip...Happy New Year and keep up the excellent work.
Geez that's no good, for the SID chip, will the Goldie start sounding like a C64?
@@steviebboy69 Can I get an |Uff Da"? Seriously my favoriye things in life include synth music, my C128 (in C64m mode) and Golsen Ewtrievers...
tens of millions to build a factory, millions for equipment, millions for utilities, maintenance, taxes, payroll to build a $2,000 synth that the retailer sells for $4,000. if it's so easy and cheap ,start building them yourself and sell them for reasonable prices for us all to enjoy. 😘
Now that moog was bought out there is absolutely no reason for their synthesizer to be that expensive.
Behringer do it?
You beat me to it lol 🎉@@olafsigursons
you have no idea what you're talking about. the notion that synth companies spend millions on machinery is nonsense. there is not a single manufacturer beside Berhinger that does it's own manufacturing. at best they assemble, like moog does.
A crook is a crook but some are better at it than others so yeah expect to pay for them
Espen Kraft says "No, I do not understand economies of scale as applied to niche, non-essential goods".
Clearly, Behringer understands them better than you seem to.
@RebeccaTurner-ny1xx sure, Uli Behringer understands that you can be very successful at capitalism if you don't give a shit about ethics or exploitation, and outright lie to your customers. I don't envy that or lionize it, I don't give them money. And I certainly don't go on TH-cam telling people that the existence of cheap chips means that the companies actually making things with them are ripping you off because they also have pay their employees.
Because people who can design circuit boards deserve to take advantage of drug dealers with vanity toys.
This is why I bought a Schmidt 8-Voice. All discrete. It’s why I bought the Arturia Polybrute 12. They do not use these chips. There is a difference in sound. But actually, the “sound” of the Sequential instruments is based on the Curtis and SSM chips so that is the sound. Behringer uses chips and their synths sound great also. The variations between the synths has to do with the way the rest of the circuitry is designed (resistors, capacitors, etc…) so, for example, even though the Roland MKS-80 and the Jupiter-6 uses the same filter chip, their circuitry is different. The Jupiter-8 is old but uses discrete electronics for its VCO’s and filters - so does the Schmidt. But the Schmidt is new. So it will last a long time. If I still owned my original two Sunsyn’s and the Jupiter-8 I would do a comparison between them and then also to the Schmidt-8 voice. You would be surprised with the the results. That is why I sold my Sunsyns and others. The Moog-One is a real beast and sounds very different also. But that is due to design. As an analog synth owner (I have the CS80) I have listened to all my synths. My OBX8 sounds nothing like my Moog and is closer to the Schmidt but the Schmidt has a sound all its own. The differences are in the *design* and the “designer”. And, you also have to “work” hard with an instrument to benefit from its value. I have VST instruments that sound great also and there a “no chips” in those -t’s all software and that is all about “design”. This is why some instruments like Omnisphere sound so very good - it is their sound libraries, and their software design together. It is also why some VST sound so bad. The same could be said for any synth. So the value is not in the materials, but in the design and creativity, pragmatic and workflow. Behringer clones the designs of originally creative people - for example their version of the PPG is not an original design. So it is cheaper since they did not have to pay for the research and development to design it. They did pay for engineering and there is creativity but it is not at the same level as “creation” of a design that is original to an instrument maker. That is what you are paying for. You are paying for “intellectual property” and at the level of raw-materials, everything is the “same” - I mean that all the chips are ‘silicon’ - and silicon is just sand: so why not just go to the beach or the desert and pickup some “sand”? I mean, why charge $7 for a chip made of materials I can get for free at the beach or in the desert, or my backyard?
None of these are discrete. Discrete means "single function" in one component.
Mostly, it's the brand and the subsequent experience that you pay, also the environment like Display, HMI, PowerSupply, I/Os, Wiring, PCBAs, Software Development (R&D HW & SW) etc. and maybe also kind of Quality when comparing Behringer vs. Oberheim for instance.
I found an elegant solution to this issue. I call it, "Ignore overpriced synths." 😀
How does that work?
That what we have VST for!
similar here, to a degree, - for the last decade, since I retired, if I buy a new synthesizer, effects processor, etc, and it's faulty, straight out of the box, I never buy from that manufacturer ever again. And, as luck would have it, it's always been the really expensive units that end up being the culprits,, - so, I've saved myself a small fortune over the last decade or so.
And, unlike the 80s and 90s, today there is an abundance of superbly made analog and digital synthesisers to choose from, - and that's not even factoring in all the Behringer stuff, which is fine, I have a couple of their units, - but personally, I do consider Behringer more consumer, rather than professional.
Plus we now have the Roland ACB stuff, the Yamaha Reface stuff, Korg/ARP bringing back affordable classics,
- funny, in 40+ years, I've never had an issue with a new Japanese instrument. American? - well that's another story...
god bless
I bought a Behringer PRO-800 for £260... at the point of purchase, I already owned a Sequential REV2 (16 voice), Roland Alpha Juno 2, JX8P, and the Kiwi-modded JX3P, amongst many others. That little PRO-800 is arguably the best "bang-for-your-buck" out there!
For $4000 we could build a 500 voice polyphonic analog synth.
Good conversation starter and funny presentation.
I built my first synth in 1979 on a bread board. It was fun, quirky and sounded like crap.
I bought a yamaha CS10 shortly afterwards
Espen i believe You should design and produce a new Sinth 🥂🙏🍻🥳