Why I must leave the "Brethren assemblies"
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- I don't know what to call this. It is something I feel before the Lord I must do. If it helps you, helps the Lord's people, or produces any change towards being Christ-like in this portion of His body then praise the Lord.
I was given an amazing opportunity recently to re-assess things I believe and the way I have lived out my beliefs and the Lord has been doing amazing things in my life.
If you know nothing of this group or are just hurt/offended by this, just carry on. I love you all :) Freedom in Christ, love for God and people, and unity are the most amazing things! Lord lead us forward and not backward. :)
Hopefully this can give language to others (especially those brought up in such groups) who know something is wrong and can't put their finger on it or figure it out because there are so many kind and lovely people around them who all agree about everything.
I apologize for terrible quality, etc. but the content is what is important for those who will take the time to listen...
33 minutes!!! sorry :/
Dear Joshua,
I have prayed for you for yrs...have admired your you strong conviction for the unsaved. And how you have walked in it and not been silent. I have attended a brethren church where you have frequented...I was only in attendance for 2 yrs and felt to leave. I fell on this video(God's appointment) and have marveled at your discernment and your strong conviction for God only !! God has gifted and God is using you and I PRAY on again for you!! God has certainly been a lamp unto your path. We share a texting prayer ministry with Dale in Edmonton...and I am honored to be able to pray for this ministry. God is so Good! You are a humble servant of our Lord and savior Christ Jesus, and I Pray God sharpens you and uses you in the same manner He did young Timothy!
Praying Always ....Erin 🙏
Greetings from Europe, Have you found open brothers and sisters?
My husband sent me this video. I've been really struggling lately with the Gospel Hall. You have pointed out a number of things that I agree with. As a daughter of an elder I'm in a very tough situation. Thank you for your video.
Thanks for sharing. That's tough. :/
brother Joshua, thank you for your video. i wanted to share my struggles and feel related somehow.
i got saved in my high school days and was invited to hear the gospel preached in the streets in Mumbai, India by a local brethren assembly. This was the first time i realized my state as a sinner and How much God loved me and gave His Son for me. i wept and kept searching the scripture for the truth. i was guided by the Lord to come to a local assembly thereafter and continued my growth in Christ. I was alone and none of my family members were saved and in fellowship. however i cannot forget the love and care the assembly showed to me a young 16 year old. i cannot recall a time when i was not asked to come home to another believers house for lunch or dinner. the love, fellowship and teaching of the saints was overwhelming and many of them are now home with the Lord Jesus.
from your video i could relate with some of the feelings i went through later in my life but i learned to commit these matters unto the Lord, as He is the head of the church and not man. over the years i could see the hand of the Lord answering my prayers and enabling the assembly to grow and multiply. I know its hard but i feel and i learned that we need to look unto the Lord. i realized so many options are there to move else where. in my youth in the assembly, many left for similar reasons in your video but they were never able to find something that they were happy with either.
when i read of the early brethren and see the many present day assemblies i see that there are challenges as you said in many places. early brethren loved the Lost, involved in missions and gospel work, they loved other like minded believers in other denominations (like George Mueller and CH Spurgeon and Hudson Taylor) and many more. this is missing a lot today. in my city there were hundreds of assembly folks who came in for the gospel sake across the Atlantic and witnessed so much in love, care and teaching many of the assemblies who are just multiplying across my country. i miss that a lot today.
also i feel that the youth should be encouraged to use their ministering gifts for the building of the saints and the assembly which some places i saw was very much controlled by few. that is sad and every soul is precious unto the Lord and everyone has a gift which needs to be stirred up.
I love your frank open thought which is sad what you have experienced and pray that the Lord will encourage you to be a witness for HIM.
Hi Joshua, I'm attending the Brethren's Assembly myself in South Korea.
I'm glad I found this video. (to see that this isn't too old of a video as it was made over a year ago)
I'm surprised that your experience in North America isn't much different from Korea.
I too feel that from the stories of Groves and Mueller that the history of our assembly should emphasize unity in Christ rather than doctrinal uniformity.
It's good to know you, even though I'm far away, and I appreciate you making the video publicly.
God bless, and may the peace of Jesus Chirst be with you.
The same problem with no fellowship can be observed in strict Conservative denominations here in Eastern Europe. I would be glad to talk to any open person via online messengers. Alex
I’m a fourth-generation member of the Gospel Hall. I don’t see myself ever leaving it, though I find certain aspects of it frustrating. Best wishes to you on your spiritual journey! ❤
I'm the same. I've found that on topics that are not foundational its best to not be confrontational. For eg. I'm skeptical about many of the eschatological teachings. I'm not in disagreement but I dont have the same confidence in them that many others do. Same with understanding of creationism. And I am not happy with how many assemblies create a disunity based on frivolous matters.
@@adamcraig1468 I don’t think Gospel Halls have a monopoly on disunity over frivolous issues.
I spent almost 50 years in the Brethren and what you say is so very true. There are many kind, loving people there but they are almost all tainted by the "Lord I thank thee that I am not as others" mindset that is so much a part of the fabric of the Plymouth Brethren. I am not sure they could even survive as a unit if that were removed. It almost seems to be what holds them together. I received love and spite, care and abuse, at the hands of this group. I was taught to believe that if I differed in any particular from the group, I was wrong. My deep, heart-held beliefs were seen as things I need to pray to be released from. Love always had conditions.
So so true... it's such a tangled web to remove your head and heart from. I hope you are able to rest and find unconditional love and acceptance. :)
@freedpeeb personally in England they are not like that from where I have just very kind humble Christians gathering simply to the teaching of the new testament .
@@lukepinn621 I know them from all over the world, the UK included. Try differing from them. Try taking a stance they disagree with. You might just find they are not so "kind, and humble" then, as I did. They were fine as long as I toed the line.
Gospel Halls can certainly be guilty of a superiority complex, but I think that’s true of all religious groups to some extent. We’re certainly less condescending than Orthodox people (at least on the Internet).
I just wish you the Best on your spiritual pursuit! I totally feel what you are saying, I can tell you just feel something is off, and I just hope you get to where the lord is taking you! You seem very intelligent, and like you have given the topic deep thought. I love how you are talking about being a beacon of love! I pray everyday to have the lord help guide me to be a Soldier of Light! Im 35 and feel the world is moving to far in a place of division that really needs to be adressed now!
I was working at the pantry the other day, and was serving this lady, and was just having a heartfelt conversation, nothing crazy, just talking about how the world could use a little more kindness, and being a little more gentle with each other, and she started crying, and just thanked me for REALLY listening and being genuine. That conversation has really stuck with me, and I really try to just be kind, polite, listen, and maybe even encouraging if i can find an opportunity to insert it in the convo!
Im happy to see there are folks out there that really values relationships, and all of Gods creations! ❤ God Bless You and everyone reading!
I grew up in a group known as the Local Church (started by Witness Lee). It is an offshoot of the Exclusive Brethren. After my wife and I left in 2016, we started meeting with Bible chapel brethren in the Midwest USA. I had many, many of the same realizations that you do here. Your video mirrored my feelings very closely. Thank you so much for this. I also have a deep desire in my heart for the working out of Christian unity, just as Jesus prayed in John 17. I realize now that this needs to be worked out in my own heart, and in the heart of millions of individual believers. There is no special group that is going to manifest this spiritual reality.
💯
Me too! I was in a local Midwest church but left
Joshua, I’m not a Brethren nor have I ever visited a Brethren church. I am, however, a Christian and I just wanted t say that I’m so impressed at your spiritual maturity and your strong faith! You are certainly a light in this world and one of God’s own! I appreciate hearing about your beliefs and your faith! Stay strong and keep walking with the Lord every day. God Bless! From Texas.
Whatever the Gospel Hall’s faults, we certainly know our Bible.
Really really good Joshua. You are a man who can obviously think for yourself and refuses to be conditioned by a system. I spent 10 years in the Open Brethren and can empathise with alot of what you have said. Ironically I ended up going back to a very small division of the exclusive brethren (Not Taylorite I hasten to add ). This was the same group I grew up in. For myself I do subscribe to the concept that the outward manifestation of the local church is something that is in ruins. I know that the OB's won't agree with this but that is where I am at. Anyway may the Lord continue to bless you in every way young brother !
Interesting I was in a non Taylorite exclusive meeting, ( Soft frost's). I only left due to distance of travel and my health being so bad.
I attend:a Gospel Hall, when I can however I am not in fellowship and never will be. Thr so called open brethren in Northern Ireland are more exclusive than the exclusive.
@Gail Owens1972
Yes Gail. I totally agree with your comment about the so called open brethren in Northern Ireland being more exclusive than the exclusives. It's one of the reasons I decided to stop being in fellowship with them.
@@daviddunlop681 what about the german ones
@@User-12365In Germany, you have mainly 4 groups of Brethren (not counting Raven-Taylor-Hales' PBCC or Witness Lee's Local Church). From a historic perspective, they are generally from the exclusive side, but there was quite a shuffle in the late 1930s. The most 'open' group is actually united in a same denomination with the German baptists, to point out how open they are (btw, German baptists are relatively liberal as a denomination). The next most 'open' group, from personal experience, would invite all who consider themselves believers to fellowship. The third group would be more likely to offer fellowship after a brief discussion to establish whether you are a believer, and the fourth group practices a form of closed table. Of course, within each group the individual assemblies will vary between more open and more closed positions according to the opinions of the brethren there.
Thank you for sharing this stage of development in your relationship with Jesus. You are experiencing many challenges, emotionally and cognitively, and it is difficult to cope with it all. So much energy in the assemblies is directed toward “proving that we are right,” cerebrally dissecting minutiae in the Scriptures, and dismissing any dissenting voices (especially if they are female), many people end up hurt and just drift away in a daze, with no support system or resources to help them. Denominational Christendom also suffers a lack, so much effort is spent on inward “growing membership” rather than sending out to share Christ. Evangelicalism has become a political stance in the States rather than a spiritual goal. Extremist fundamentalists like Gothard that you mentioned, and others, have added onerous burdens that are found no where in the revealed Words of God. Young people are leaving the structure of organized religion in droves, recognizing the hypocrisy that Christ, is not what churches are worshiping anymore.
You have said some very difficult things, but every one of them needs to be said, and they all have truth that must be looked at and dealt with.
I am sure you will get feedback from people telling you how wrong you are, but that is a human, knee-jerk reaction to hearing a painful truth that hits too close to home. You will hear from people who will say that “we are all sinful people trying to do our best” in a false-humility that is only an excuse to avoid improving and growing. Others will take one of your minor points and focus on explaining in great detail how you are misunderstanding some background detail, trying to detract from the hard truths that they do not want to address. Then there are the “not everyone does that” people who take the holier-than-others track of discourse, which again, is just a smoke screen to cover the wrongs they do commit.
You are young to have have reached this point of disillusionment and be willing to speak to it. You have a heart and a voice to make a difference, whether that be in the assemblies or out. Perhaps you can make a contribution in providing some support materials you mentioned are lacking?
wisdom... wherever we go
Thank you for your insight...
I feel the brethren assemblies have mostly true doctrine, and some love the Lord with all their hearts, but some (most) just WILL NOT discuss their personal relationship with Jesus, their daily walk etc. If anything whatsoever is "outside the box" of anything they have experienced themselves, it is simply dismissed or written off. It can be crushing. No real fellowship. It breaks my heart because they had such good intentions and worked so hard. But they're often so concerned to have their doctrine correct that God gets put in a box labelled "Expectations" and if He acts outside those expectations then it is attributed to Satan and that's very dangerous ground to be on. So sad 😢 I pray the Lord will correct wrong thinking and establish His truth amongst those in the assemblies who belong to Him.❤
Thank you for commenting! The same problem with no fellowship can be observed in strict Conservative denominations here in Eastern Europe. I would be glad to talk to any open person via online messengers. God’s will be done
Well done Joshua! .... not for leaving, but for making the departure without rancour on your part. I trod a similar, though much easier, path 50 years ago. I don't know where the Lord has or will lead you but suspect that you will both give and receive much blessing. I'm not sure how I landed on your video but, however, algorithms take second place when God wants things to happen. Blessings. Ken
I thank the good Lord that i have spent my lifetime in the assemblies, (43 years in fellowship) it has been a great privilege.
Yes there are good and bad believers in them, just as in any other church, or infact in any other group of people, anywhere on earth.
I will continue in them and serve the Lord in them, until he comes. Which very clearly, will be very soon.
Thanks for sharing :)
Very soon indeed Rev 1 : 2: and 3: is the manifesto for today.
It is good to know what you believe ... but it is good also to know and understand ...Why you believe it ....AND THEY CONTINUED IN THE APOSTLES DOCTRINE , THE BREAKING OF BREAD , PRAYER AND THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE MYSTERY
Good job , Jane
Brother Rova I loved your Video, and You are a Sincere Heart. Thank You for your Testimony, and Faithfulness too Our King.
Josh, I left the Gospel Hall a few years ago. I agree with you that there are no resources for people leaving the assemblies. Every now and then I go through TH-cam and other media to see if I find something and finally I stumbled over your video haha. Hope we can have more people like you who can share their experiences in the assemblies.
Hi Joshua, thanks for acting on your God given conscience. I’ve been where you are and have expressed. Only major difference is we were kicked out. After a 4 year vacuum period I came to it that the utopia we share is not here on the earth, but yet the Lord simply asks that we remember Him, and do so with those who call upon His Name. The only advice I can offer is from sorely tried experiences and that is to seek those out, even if they are in imperfect company as they all surely are, and pick the best out of a bad lot. It’s still hard to accept things that go on but diligence will pay the dividend, and as you do this practically, the Lord will show you His way. It’s something I have proved to be true and I simply want to encourage you along these lines. The Lord knows those that are His, that is a true statement and backed up by scripture which is a Divinely inspired word. Be free to PM me and I will happily speak with you, and I will definitely pray for your guidance and help to find your place.
As someone who grew up in a Protestant Christian household, attended private Christian schools agreed with these type of doctrines and considered going to a "Gospel Hall". I started searching very hard and 8 years later in 2008, I was baptized into the Holy Catholic Church. Apostolic churches are being reproved, over and over again. Christians couldn't be wrong for 1500 years?!?!
Josh, it seems the Lord is leading you into a higher ground, towards the full understanding of the truth, towards the knowledge of God Himself. As someone who was once with the Brethren, here’s my suggestion. Whatever you do next, don’t identify yourself with any group to the exclusion of the rest of the believers elsewhere. Only love the LORD your God, love your neighbour (no matter who) as thyself, even enemies, exercise yourself to godliness, and live a holy life. Everything else is secondary. God bless.
Thank you, this seems to be the way the LORD is showing me too....
May the Lord guide you and help you as you continue to look to the Him.
Thank you so much for sharing this. Your a very brave young man
I'm only 11 minutes in but I wanna respectfully address your point about how "most in the assemblies believe they are better than all other christians in the world" and I wanna address it in 2 ways:
1) almost none of the assembly brethren I interacted with believe that
2) if you think the brethren can be prideful, it's definitely a human thing. I'm friends with a lot of calvinists, orthodox, and catholics, and man, that attitude of my way or the highway (to hell) is highly prevalent in those circles too.
Am I being ironic by puffing up the assemblies with the thought that they're more humble than everyone else? I certainly hope it doesn't come off that way. My point is that an unfortunate part of human pride is that regardless of denomination, many christians think themselves to be better than all other christians in the world. And Josh, if we're both honest with ourselves, sometimes we think that, too.
But I'm really sorry that your experience was one filled with pride. We're all sinners who need God's mercy every day
Glad you have experienced that :)
Thanks for posting this video--it definitely shows areas where we need to self-examine and let the Holy Spirit expose ways that don't honor Christ. Unfortunately, I have experienced first-hand many of the points you bring up. However, I think you painted all assemblies with a VERY broad brush. I've served in the military for 17 years and have had the privilege to gather with Christians around the world, some in assemblies and some not. Gospel Halls, Chapels, non-denominational, house churches, etc. I have fellowshipped with assemblies that resemble many of your points and others that resemble almost none. There are no perfect local churches because they are made up of you and me. I don't view assemblies as an all other nothing proposal. In fact, I don't like the term "assemblies" because it divides. If I move to a new area, I have a choice between local churches, not assembly and non-assembly. Where does God want me to fellowship? If He leads me to fellowship with an "assembly" in one place and a house church in another and a Baptist church in a third location, that's His prerogative. My prayer is that all local churches and the individuals in them (and especially me!) continue to grow in Christ-likeness, submission to Christ as Head, and sensitivity to the Holy Spirit's leading.
100% amen. But the average assembly in North America I have been to does not view themselves as "just another group of believers"
I get your point.
Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. (Ephesians 5:14)
th-cam.com/video/PpylUDKrHek/w-d-xo.html
Sometimes I feel like im around pharisees, a sound doctrine is not enough people need love and compassion. I felt like a robot who had lost all emotions being around the brethrens. Brother it's christ's love that is convicting you. I don't think other christians are lost because they go to a different church like the assemblies say. So follow what the lords is leading you to do .
as a fellow Indian Christian i agree
Many of us can relate to this ....but we should honor the Lord and not ourselves .... GOD IS A RESPECTOR OF NO MAN ....
FEAR THE LORD ...
LOVE GOD
LOVE PEOPLE ...
Christ is the only Answer
We’re not very emotional; I suppose it comes from our British heritage.
A number of years ago I was humbled by the obedient faith of someone who fellowshipped in a denomination that had left its original high standards in the Gospel. A respected piano teacher was asked to teach a young student the organ; something the teacher was certainly capable of, but had not done. The teacher declined, suggesting the parents try to find another teacher. Some time later, during a piano lesson with the student, the teacher asked if they had found someone. The reply was “no, we were unable”. The teacher then asked “why do you want to learn to play the organ?’ The answer to her question was “so I can play in church”. Now the church fellowship of the student was different than the teacher, but despite this the teacher replied; “Then I will do it.” She was willing to accept a difficult task because it would result an ability that would honor Christ. I was humbled by her obedient will and asked myself if I would have been equally inclined to compromise my ease to do something difficult. I feared I may not be. I was impressed that a persons fellowship does not limit their service to Christ, and conversely, fellowship in a more scripturally aligned order does not guarantee selfless service to Christ. This appears to resemble your quandary. Yet there is more to be considered here. Are results all that matters? Perhaps yes in the case of the spiritual life of an individual believer. But not necessarily in the cause of the success of the Gospel itself. God’s intentions for believers in fellowship should serve two purposes: the individual growth and sanctification of each one in fellowship and faithful devotion to truth in the manner He directed. While watching a video from Is Genesis History, I was impressed with a statement a presenter made in discussing creation truth. He said “There are some things that are pragmatically beneficial that God will not honor.” Some of my fellowship has been in groups of believers who have adopted principles based on such a pragmatic foundation. The problem is that God has not asked us to reason in things He has clearly instructed, only to obey. Will such obedience guarantee the first objective? Absolutely not. Should we therefore discount the second (obedience to God’s design for local fellowship)? Again, absolutely not. I have seen the results of pragmatically beneficial principles and the adoption of practices not supported by Scripture. I have concluded that the results are mixed at best and in some cases, more harmful than helpful. . A recent doctrinal survey by Arizona Christian University gathered responses from different belief groups One statement to be opined on was “a person who is generally good, or does enough good things for others, will earn a place in Heaven". Of persons identified as evangelical, 34% answered yes. How could this be? I believe it is because some groups have placed numbers above methods, being willing to help God in ways He has not directed. As a street preacher you know that a person cannot be saved until they come to realize they are lost. Sadly modern Christendom has been highly successful in convincing the unsaved that “getting right with God” means clean up your life and everything will be fine. I think I have expressed what I would. I suspect you have also found that the “hath God said?” question has tripped up many with good intentions. God most certainly has spoken. Is there a group that perfectly answers to God’s highest and best will for a local fellowship? Absolutely not. Should we therefore disregard His instructions. Again, absolutely not. After 50 years of new life I have found that the original goals of the brethren type movements of the Holy Spirit remain today. That God’s best will be achieved when groups fellowship in accordance with principles set forth in Scripture. Don’t throw out the principles for pragmatically better results. Each of us must account for ourselves. If I were perfect I may rightly expect others to be.
Great video brother thank you for sharing. I did find 11:19 concerning as it is a really strong statement
"most of the people within the brethren assemblies do believe that they are better than all the other Christians in the world"
I didn't find this the case in my experience, but you know far more than me about these assemblys. I agree with a lot of your points and see this comes from a faithful servant heart. Godspeed Bro
I’m Gospel Hall, and I don’t think I’m better than other Christians. There are some Christians in denominations who are much closer to God than I am.
I think you are So brave and intelligent and your heart seems pure and good. Thank you for this video!!
I have just started (about 3 weeks ago) to attend a small brethren church so don't know much about the mindset at all, I am attending to re-establish Christian fellowship as I have been backslidden for a number of years. Thanks for your video, I have listened and now can carry on with more insight and awareness on what to guard against if I choose to stay
Thank you also for highlighting how the system perpetuates abuse. I know too many people who have been damaged in all the ways you mentioned.
Thanks for your comments
:) appreciate you sharing.
As a visitor along with a friend and his membership there at the time, I was never allowed to take communion, dispite being born again, that in itself was a big put off
Well there is a biblical reason for that. Being born again is not the only prerequisite for partaking in the Lords Supper. Conversion, baptism, church membership and an orderly walk (2 Thessalonians 3:6) are the prerequisites for coming to the Lord’s table. Many churches will restrict participation in the Lords supper in order to protect the unity of the local body. Often you will be invited to partake if you have a letter or referral from the elders of your church.
Can I ask why it was a put off? Ive attended churches where Ive happily sat back and not taken part and never felt put off
Why is it a put off? Because it makes many people feel less if they're asked to sit at the back by "elders" who I feel most of them have a "pharisee complex".
Partaking in the Lord's supper or not should be left down to personal examination of the individual according to the second part of 1st Corinthians chapter 11.
Also this letter/referral I see no where in Scripture, it's something someone has decided to invent in the brethren sect.
Hi Joshua! I have watched this video twice now and am just beginning to understand everything. I searched for a video like this because I’m looking for guidance. I have found myself thinking about marriage with my boyfriend who grew up in an open brethren assembly. I am a born again saved Christian who grew up with a Baptist/Evangelical/Non-Denominational background. To my saved family and friends, my bf’s assembly seems… legalistic, non-biblical, and controlling toward women. I am beginning to see that that is not the case. However, in thinking about marrying my bf, I feel like I am betraying the Christian family that raised me. This has put a tenion on my relationships that has been really hard for me. Do you have any advice about how I should proceed? I’d love to hear your thoughts 💛
I'm so sorry to hear about that. Relationships are so difficult, especially when those you are close to seem to have conditions on their care and support towards you based on what you do. It's hard and kind of pretentious of me to give advice to a situation I am not in or understanding of, but a few general things: I believe it is important that you both have a willingness to listen to each other and grow as you uncover more information and evidence even if it's against your current biases and beliefs. I believe if you are committed to loving each other no matter what and your relationship is healthy that you should do what you are confident is right once you have thought seriously about it with your emotions, will, and intellect. Sometimes people can give you really good advice or really bad advice, etc. Be intentional and purposeful and take into consideration what people say, but ultimately you will have to live with each other, not anyone else, so you should make the call. :) Also, in general brethren treat people very differently when they are in "project" mode then they do once they are on the "inside" so a lot of assemblies don't look very legalistic or controlling but really are. It's hard to know for sure unless you are there for quite a while. Spiritual abuse, etc. isn't usually public or obvious. I think you are asking 2 separate questions, and have done my best to give you some thoughts about them. :) sorry for the delay. best if you have someone you trust a lot who knows the situation more.
I hope everything goes well for you!
@JoshuaRova that is certainly not the case with the open brethren assembly that I am at in England definitely not spiritual abuse and I've been in fellowship for over a year and was baptised and I'm whole spiritual growth was thanks to them for their help yes that are some that are like that but certainly not all its best not to put us under the same brush as that is not fair.
@taylorrunde5004 Let me advise you a little more on the Plymouth Brethren. It's funny to me how similar I and Josh Rova's stories are, and I'm going to reach out to him to connect. I actually remember seeing him speak at one of our conferences in the remembrance meeting. A difference between he and I is our philosophies in the manner of departure; he seeks to be as gracious, contention-avoidant, and gentle as possible in publicly speaking his reasons for leaving. I on the other hand believe the Brethren can only change with a "rude awakening," because they are so entrenched in their arrogant and self-reassuring mindsets that they need a "shock" to realize they ought to re-evaluate themselves. I have no problem voicing my anger and distaste for what they allow to happen, especially since a recent situation regarding an elder at my old chapel.
With that said, allow me to be a little more blunt than Josh might. Many of the leaders and other men of social rapport in the chapels honestly treat their wives like idiots. The atmosphere effectively is a low-temp gaslighting. I recall sermons with things like "A good wife follows and supports her husband even when she knows he's wrong." One the high-status men in the traveling speaker circle is Mark Hartley, and his wife told me one time that when they're in an argument, she'll ask, "Are we done?" and he'll reply with, "I don't know, do you agree with me yet?" This was not in a light-hearted, jesting tone either. Yet another member named Kyle Tucker took his wife outside during a party at a member's house, and verbally berated her in a VERY raised voice for talking alone with another man on the back porch for a few minutes. While most Brethren husbands would never do that, Kyle never faced any sort of admonishing for it. It was just a "look the other way" incident. There are absolutely wonderful couples there too, but the culture allows for sexism in the name of dogmatic righteousness. You'll be told you're sinning by some women if you don't wear a head covering in meetings, too. My advice is to draw your lines in the sand. Know what you'll tolerate and what you won't before going deeper. If those lines get crossed by people at the chapel, tell your bf that you can't live with that. If he's a badass, he'll go tell whoever mouths off to you to shut their trap haha. Or maybe he'll be willing to see those issues too. I've watched young men leave and go to other churches when they marry. I for one would never bring my girl to a Brethren meeting, but I'm also never going to attend one myself again. They add arrogance to fellowship in the gospel and it's disgusting.
Interesting. I get the point of what you mean. I find every denomination has its saved and unsaved people in it. And no church is free from heretical views. But it's the last days right... all I want is to spread truth wherever I am, if that gets me in trouble fine. Truth is hard to find these days. Hard to evangelise your group if you're the only one standing. I'm blessed by an assembly that is 90% new wine... you know what I mean. New enough to see the weak points of the system. You get an assembly into the 3rd generation, guarantee you that church is ready for a fall. Just plain fact. Humanity has been at it thousands of years. EVERY denomination ends up a cult eventually. If you're new wine the old skin won't hold you. Just let the old be what it is, don't try to reform it.
Thanks Josh
Good points perhaps from a sincere heart. True that it's
1. a very male oriented movement.
2. True that Luxurious lifestyle became the norm . Many people in the assemblies live luxurious upper middle class rich - lifestyles in USA. (not true in Africa or Douth America or other areas where brethren movement has grown)
3. Pride - some are proud of their beliefs - obviously this guy has not been around the reformed brethren. 😂
In my experience there are lots of women and working class people in the Brethren assemblies.
I am an outsider to this conversation, I have never been associated with the Brethren. But, I was born into and professed a religion called the Truth and the Friends (2x2s). Anyway, I can relate to about 90 percent of what you describe, the "exclusiveness" factor being the common element in our two non-denominational denominations.
How I see it - Actions speak louder than words. God gave us brains to think, and mouths to speak the truth. If it isn't somehow beautiful, it's not God's handiwork. Most people have no religion of their own, but borrow one from someone else (William Penn). Alot of effort is put into keeping God in the bible, or shoehorning him into religions.
Mark Twain, the big heathen, described Salt Lake City as the only place on earth that a Jew was a gentile. When I left the "Truth", I felt like that Jew. I was leaving to be an honest christian, but those I met with saw me as abandoning God's true way. It's cliche, but true, that we answer only to God.
I guess this old man had a hard time following your logic.. I wish you best in whatever ministry God has given you.. yes, there are many divisions among brethren assemblies.. you will find many divisions in many circles of independent fundamental Bible churches.. my personal opinion is just goahead teach the gospel and the Word of God.. there is nothing wrong being independent fundamental Bible believing.. going to stop now.. wherever you go you will find conflict.. when we get home to heaven all 300,000 to 400,000 circles of churches will be forgotten.. preach the Word of God brother..all circles of churches wound Christian sheep 🐏
Hello Joshua.
I wanted to share with you my understanding regarding what you say. And that is that many many Christians are currently, and have been for many years, and in ALL denominations, groups and sects, waking up to the exact same understanding as you. This is a world wide move of what I belivee is by the Holy Spirit. People are not recognizing this but the revival they were praying for is in fact happening, but it is spiritual and invisible to most. And the "revival" is but in a small remnant. What is happening is that our old "bodies" (the body of Christ as we knew it) is being changed to look differently. Only a very few are being "called out" and will form part of the "new thing" God is doing on the earth. We will not be denominational but changed to be more in line with "one faith, one Spirit, one baptism. The old system has become as the "old garment" we read about in the prophets, and Christ is doing a new thing yet again. Just like He ended the old system of Israel and Christianity was born out of the death of the old, so the second coming we await is not like people imagine, but a new work where our "bodies" (assemblies, churches) are being spiritually transformed into something better, and just like Christianity looked radically different than the system it came out of, so the "new thing" will be unlike anything you and I can imagine right now. The Christianity we knew will also then only be a type and shadow of what is coming, just like the Law system of Moses was a pattern of what was to come. If I sound "New Age', I am not. I am merely telling you this is what the Bible teaches, and that you leaving is you hearing the call of the Holy Spirit to all the people of God to "come out of her, my people". The churches of our time have gone through the whole progression into the luke warm state of Laodicea. If you read the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 you will see it describes a progressive move into spiritual death (Sardis) and finally full blown apostasy. Only Philledelphia is spared going through "the hour of trial" meaning they are those (few in number) who do not fall asleep spiritually but watch and guard His Word and His Name. Meaning they do not come under the strong delusion of thinking them,selves "rich and increased in goods and in need of nothing". They fall into this state because they do not overcome the things we are told to overcome in the book of Revelation. The beast makes war with them and overcomes them.
I hope you are enjoying your new found freedom. By now you will know none of those you try to explain to will understand, but they will reject you and turn away from you. But that is the walk of a follower of Jesus, to become more and more isolated and you walk alone, only, you are not alone because the Father is ever closer. it says of overcomers "they follow the Lamb wherever He goes". It also speaks of them as "virgins" which I believe means spiritual virgins not "married" to a fellowship, as in primarily serving a fellowship, but they serve Christ alone. This does not mean they cannot be part of a fellowship but it refers to where their primary focus and allegiance is, though mostly the fellowships do not tolerate such a one, meaning many do end up walking alone).
God will use this "remnant" scattered all over the world to crush the rebellion of Satan against the rule of Christ, but it takes time and so we need to be patient and endure this, just as sis Peter, John, James, Paul and all the believers in the first century did in their time. We are living at the end of another age and God is doing in our time what He said He would do when Jesus comes again, only it will look nothing like people think.
Continue to seek Him alone and follow Him no matter where He takes you. I went through the same as you already in 2011, though in the traditional denomination system, and I can tell you it is not a strange process happening only to you, it is happening to many of us and you will find us "out there" on the internet if you seek, but God is not yet allowing a regathering at this time except in small groups at most. And many walk totally alone, though through the internet we can sometimes speak, and have fellowship, even if only in comments as I do here. This is totally a work of the Spirit in a believer, and we need do nothing but follow and obey, the very things your heart burns to do. It is the Holy Spirit bringing this burning in us, and God Himself doing the work.
Hello Joshua, l am a born again Christian, lead by the Holy Spirit daily, l am wanting to find out more about the brethren Church, as one has just opened down the road from me? I have been once ,nothing that I am used to, don't understand why ladies wear hats ? But they said l don't have to! For me its all about a relationship with Jesus NOT religion. Be blessed in your walk with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ 🙏
Gospel Hall brother here! Our sisters cover their hair at meetings of the assembly as a sign of submission to God. It comes from a passage in I Corinthians 11. “Every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head.”
The bible tells women that they should cover their heads when gathering to the name of the lord jesus
Where the Lord moves, Praise the Lord
Thankful for this video
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Sounds like the main point is the problem of sectarian thinking and behavior in the assemblies, and that you are choosing to not use the label “assemblies” for yourself anymore because of the sectarian tendencies. Is that correct? Have you experienced a church that is not sectarian? How do we form a church or movement that is not sectarian? What are the characteristics of a church that would be a blessing to new believers?
Great questions! I'm working on developing more thoughts about that and figuring out how to just walk with the Lord and other believers. Yah you summed it up great :)
I do plan on making more purposeful videos in the future and teaching about what is not what isn't good. :)
Amazingly well thought-out video, man.
My friend is involved in this and I'm very concerned for him cause he's a great guy.
One of the interesting qualities I noticed in the organization is a combination of two liturgies:
1. Leadership: The leaders aren't held accountable so much; they just say, "Jesus is our leader."
2. Doctrine: They don't believe that Jesus really speaks today, or if He does it's just through the exact scripture wording.
Because of this, you have a conflicting spiritual trap:
Jesus is your leader, but He won't speak.
Therefore, they can have control over you in God's name.
How destructive that is; very cult-like and ultimately dangerous to your relationship with God.
Very insightful. :) thx bro.
A Brethren member joined our Baptist church and immediately caused division. Very legalistic also.
Sorry to hear that :(
@@JoshuaRova The problem is...they are nice! It is their beliefs that cause them to act.
Always remember .....
GOD HAS REVEALED HIS LOVE TO US THROUGH JESUS CHRIST ...IN THAT..
WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS CHRIST DIED FOR US.... 1 John 3 :16
John 3 ...
Shows that the we have all been bitten by that fiery serpent much like the Israelites in Moses day ....
Look ..Look look and Live ...
AS MOSES LIFTED UP THE SERPENT IN THE WILDERNESS SO MUST THE SON OF MAN BE LIFTED UP ....
Jesus Christ is the Only Answer .. Holy Pure WITHOUT SPOT OR WRINKLE ...
we are not nor will ever be in this life
Baptists can be very legalistic too in my experience. It could be he left because the Gospel Hall found him unpleasant.
(Matthew 18:20 KJV) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Dude, I have so much respect for you. Thank you for making this video. I left the assemblies a few years ago too for similar reasons. Eventually I lost my faith completely. But your honesty and humility is so striking in this video; it inspires me and reminds me of the best aspects of Christianity.
Don’t let others pull you away from your faith. My heart aches for you. I’m praying God said himself to you! He loves you ❤️
Thanks for sharing that. I appreciate it :)
Thank god you are getting out my family where breathing and one relative was a pervert to us a children the Lord bless you
I left years ago for a true non denominational Bible teaching church. Don't regret it ever. Real moving worship with arms up to heaven and tears in eyes. But "we're doing it wrong"
Interesting video. Thank you.
Lol. I looked you up on FB and we have over a dozen friends in common, and we could even be distantly related.
I left the Bretheren assemblies seven years ago, and through a very long journey, have left christianity all together.
Good luck on your journey👍
Thanks for sharing :).
@@JoshuaRovahow can you only say “ thanks for sharing”!!! He has left christianity all together, if you’re a “better” christian than others shouldn’t you be telling him that he shouldn’t throw out the bible when he left the bretheren??
@@1duivinDo you believe that you, or anyone else, can convince this person of the love of God, while God himself cannot? They, and we, are in good hands.
@@AndrewCrites-rr6jk My comment was to Joshua Rova how he reacted to motorcyclelad, he should have showed him some empathy, he just has to plant a seed of Christian love, but he just dropped him.
@@1duivin Well, two things. You asked "if you're a better christian than others..." I don't know Joshua Rova, but i reckon he understands that there is no such thing as a "better christian." Secondly, it seems that this person, who we are worried about, is familiar with the teachings teachings of Jesus. If Jesus doesn't have them convinced at the moment, J. Rova isn't going to do it. I have every hope for their soul, my soul and yours, because of the power and beauty of God.
This is a very helpful video and I resonate with every single point. I left the brethren in England 10 years ago and have family still part of it. Their view of me is that I’m wrong and rebellious. It pains me that they cant respect “outsiders”. Once again these were our experiences and not all Brethren church members but I do agree the system is broken. I wish you all the best moving forward Joshua. Let’s chat sometime!
What do you mean by the system is broken
I think the points Joshua makes in this video provide a helpful definition of a broken system. I’m not denying other churches are also broken but the Brethren’s unwillingness to admit that their church is broken is the distinction.
@@IainBaileyMagic anything specific that's broken?
It would hurt me if one of my relatives left the Gospel Hall, but I would always love them and want them in my life. I certainly hope that I respect people outside the assembly.
Brother, I also have my personal thoughts regarding the movement. I wanted to ask, was that open brethren or closed brethren, gospel hall or exclusive, I have attended all since my childhood
.
Mostly open brethren (gospel chapels or Bible chapels)
Joshua, a year and a half later...How is it goin' ?
I'm understanding the quirks more listening
To this video and reading the comments. Thank you. Now i understand my new neighbors better. They make us feel that we are subordinate as Baptists but they dont mean to. They are good people. But they seem like faith is more of an obligation than a relationship and that almost everything we do in worship service is incorrect. I don't think they will stay in our town. I think they will kove to a town far away where there is a brethren church. Sad. Seems they have no room for grace. Thanks for the help.
Thanks for sharing. Yah that is the struggle. Many sincere and genuine people get caught up in the system of thought and it causes a lot of stress/division. :/
@@JoshuaRova it has been 11 mos...how are you doing?
Quite well all things considered :)
Someday when I have time I will probably publicize thoughts again. :)
@@JoshuaRova i will subscribe! God bless in an impactful way. May the grace and mercy of God be the wind in your sails.
I m not perfect You are not perfect No Church is perfect...Jesus is Perfect and He will make us perfect when He comes in the air soon.
What church do you go to now?
I'm not entirely sure how to answer that... What does the word "church" mean to you? And what do you mean by go to?
Josh, in the world you can’t find perfect church man. We need fellowship with saints. For that church going is important. If you don’t like one brethren church, then you can go to other brethren church. If you have problems, then switch to Baptist assemblies. But problem is that , you have to have certification before preach in Baptist assemblies. Lot of things want to speak you…. But don’t know how to type,
Joshua, I appreciate your sharing all this. I have some good memories of meeting with the Brethren and have met some fine Christians among them. I remain convinced that they have they have the right approach to church government and ministry. Also I admire their devotion to the Word. I no longer endorse their dispensational theology. My greatest disappointment is with their current drift away from the biblical principles that had drawn me to their meetings--many are now taking on paid "pastors" who replace the study and able ministry of mature brothers. I do hope you find fellowship that is acceptable to you and which is biblical. I have been meeting with Anabaptist people--very satisfying to me, tho not perfect, and not super-saints--just plain, real, God-loving people.
@@arttyree4504I’m sorry to hear about assemblies hiring paid pastors.
how is the new fellowship going?
I’d recommend going to a gospel hall. We teach truth of what Jesus did for us and how we can be in heaven. We don’t have a pastor, we have elders which is completely biblical. We don’t just let everyone take part in the emblems…only those who are saved, baptized and in the assembly fellowship. For those not in the assembly, we have a back seat which is biblical. We preach the gospel according to Gods word unlike many churches who say you need to get baptized to get to heaven or read your Bible, just attend their church, try and not sin, etc. “not by works lest any man should boast”
@@IAmATrueChristian you should watch the video again probably. :/
@@JoshuaRova I don’t want to. I know that the assemblies teach the truth despite what you think. Everything we do is biblical and if the place you went to wasn’t then maybe you weren’t in the right place. I have grown up going to a gospel hall and have gotten nothing but good, kind, happy, honest and godly people from it. I was raised in a Christian home with Christian parents. I have 5 siblings and they all realized they needed to be saved and put their faith in the lord. I struggled for a long time looking and trying to believe that Jesus died for me or believe it the right way….it just couldn’t figure it out until last year.
One night in September I decided that I’d had enough of the struggling over the year. I was 14 and I decided I needed to get saved and it needed to be now. For 3 1/2 months I struggled and tried to get saved and tried to figure out how to believe it the right way but nothing worked. We have gospel series with 2 commended workers who I know very well. For 3 weeks the preached the gospel trying to get through to me but nothing worked. Both preachers had to go to the states for meetings(we are in Canada) and one of them texted me saying he would help me and try and show me verses that might make things clear to me. Daily he showed me verses but it was all dark until December 16th 2023. The last 3 1/2 months were torment for me. I cried day and night, stopped eating, shook uncontrollably, stopped sleeping and eventually stop talking to my parents out of grief for my own soul. On the 16th I texted the preacher and told him I was done with this. I couldn’t do it, I can’t get saved and I’m so scared. I just don’t know why I can’t believe it. He answered me and simply said, “what do you think the lord Jesus meant? John 19:30”
I knew the verse by heart so answered with, “it’s done, there isn’t anything I can do, it’s finished”
It still meant nothing until he said, “if it’s finished, what more do you want?”
It hit me so hard…I don’t want anything else! Jesus did it all for me so I don’t have to go to hell! So then I started on my way to heaven.
THAT is the truth and peace that we preach. We don’t preach, “baptism saves” because it doesn’t. Neither does reading your Bible, going to any church, etc, trying not to sin, NONE of these things or others….simply faith.
I know we preach the truth no matter what you tell me or what your experience was with assemblies. This a social outing, it’s life or death for all eternity. If you met some harsh preachers then they are just concerned for the well-being of peoples souls.
Why don’t you like assemblies?
@@IAmATrueChristian If you have found something you are confident in that gives you peace and sound like you are not interested in further consideration I'm not going to put pressure on your current worldview and life experience. Thanks for sharing your story. I know it will not be a good use of my time to have an argument with you here.
@@IAmATrueChristian Your comments read like someone who is young and fairly unable to think outside of the things they already believe and have been taught. Keep your eyes open and never be afraid to challenge things and change your opinions. Good luck to you :)
@@JoshuaRova what did they teach at the assembly you went to. Give me a small recap of how they did things
This is basically a lesson that I personally think is the most important for new Christians the Bible is done no more no less now conflict is going to happen as long as we have a sin nature
Idk what your doctrine is idk what your beliefs are I don’t even know what version of the Bible you use if you want to improve yourself it will take much Bible and much hard work
And also the world hates the things of God and listening to the world’s philosophy’s is a great way to destroy your testimony because it is not not just an understanding it’s a weed that will grow until you can’t stop it alone but you’ll have God no matter what
I hope you can learn something from this random almost 19 year old and God bless
I was brought up in a Congregational Church over 60 years ago which is now has cankered into nothing better than Sodom and Gomorah ....The enemy works within ...
The original Congregational movement came out of Puritanism from overseas and has had great impact in previous centuries ....but it wasn't until I understood the pattern, practice and the precepts of the Church of Christ as practiced within the Christian Assemblies that I understood and eventually had gotten saved and baptized but it is not an easy street till the end ....The Big Picture is over time and history and much practice in other sects and denominations were similar in sanctimonious behavior and practice except for the hierarchy of Church Government as this was seen in earlier previous centuries ....
Now is a Time to Be Alert and Aware ... because .... THE DEVIL GOES ABOUT AS A ROARING LION SEEKING WHOM HE MAY DEVOUR ....
Leaving assemblies where do you plan to
fellowship? If lack of unity and love is there it is issues with individuals like me and you? but the assembly teaching aren't they closer to the N.T.?
No they are not. Brethren are deluded into thinking they know best but they don’t.
It's a lot up to personal interpretation and bias, etc.
My husband left the brethren at 21. I met him when he was 45. I am not religious . We married and his parents were not happy. His parents are extremely unpleasant to me every time I see them because I’m not a Christian. My husband is not happy with them at all
I'm so sorry about that. That's not fun at all :/ not a good example of Jesus to say the least.
MAY WE ALL ....SEEK THE LORD WHILE HE MAY BE FOUND ...
God has set the terms and times for his owns people and their salvation .... don't wait too long ...to SEEK THE LORD
I’m Gospel Hall Brethren, and I’m sorry to hear they treat you that way.
I was born and brought up in the Brethren Church & now I'm 57 years old, ever since my childhood and questions about people, I was advised by my Parents & elders, not to look at anyone but only the LORD JESUS CHRIST described in the Holy Bible. This young man who failed to get such advice from his Church is not a surprise, but more than that he failed to look at the LORD and imitate Him both in words and in deeds. He says that "brethren do not claim to trace their heritage back to Peter", that's something he should have done if he would've looked at JESUS. So, how do he know that nobody in the Brethren do not claim to trace their heritage back to Peter?
I used to explain about my association with fellow opponents of believers, that I'm a Brethren Church guy, having rooted from Plymouth, UK and further rooted back to Matthew 16:18, I just said few hours before one of the well wisher of Pastor John MacArthur who referred this TH-cam channel & that's why I post to Josh.
So, how do I say that I'm from Plymouth brethren, UK & further rooted from Matthew 16:18 ( Peter)?
Jesus said in Matthew 16:28, there are some standing here, they shall not taste death until they see the coming of the Son of man.
This verse is being fulfilled now in the 21st century, but the best part of it is that it's being fulfilled through working of God among the SOME in the Brethren Church located in South India, so these SOME having their ancestry root from Jerusalem as the fulfillment of Matthew 16:28.
These SOME can claim to exist before 2000 years, also they can challenge powers of bullets since their physical bodies are the temple of God that can't be destroyed by any power. So, these SOME have also been described in the book of Revelation 11.
So, the ultimate point is that the Two Witnesses described in Revelation 11 comes from the Brethren Church and this world is coming to the climax. This, the working of God among these two from the Brethren Church is something truly represents the LORD JESUS CHRIST.
So, Josh missed out the fact by looking at fellow believers in his Church and now he left, not looking at the LORD is something blunder mistakes he made.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts :)
@@JoshuaRova You're welcome but sad that you failed to figure out the facts.
Your version of "facts" is very different than mine :)
@@JoshuaRova Yes, I'm different from every believer and every denominations. But the larger point is that who has the facts? How are these facts played out?
Joshua I've subscribed because I want to see where your journey takes you.
I hope future videos provide deeper insights into what you actually believe, because what I got out of this video is that you had been with the Brethren for seven years, you had an idea of what you believed Christianity should look like, the Brethren weren't open to your ideas for change, so you left.
Not clear if your ideas for Christianity developed whilst you were with the Brethren, or if you had them before you joined the Brethren, and whether you joined the Brethren hoping to sway them to your way of thinking?
Obviously that will never happen. Darby discovered that with the Anglican Church, which is why he left the Anglican Church and started the Brethren. It's how these things work.
Once the foundations are set you cannot change them, you have to go and build new foundations.
Luckily for you, Christianity is a very plastic religion, which is able to accommodate a multitude of different denominations with their own individual ideas of how Christianity should look like.
Ok, so now that you have had your bitch fit about the Brethren because they didn't want to accept your ideas, let's hear what those ideas are in future videos.
I am beginning to listen to this. I want to understand your perspective
We can't try to make the words of the Lord Jesus and his apostles palatable to unbelievers. Believers will receive his words and unbelievers will not.
Not sure how that addresses any of my concerns...?
You have some good critiques here. I was about your age when I left the Open Brethren. By that point I had studied enough solid theology to realize that the Brethren‘s pride far exceeded their actual theological and Scriptural knowledge. I was already essentially Reformed by that point, and eventually joined an Anglican church. One thing I will say is that nondenominationalism is an impossibility. As soon as you have two groups of Christians who separate at all because they disagree on anything, you immediately have denominations. Two different congregations are essentially two small denominations, given the definition of the word. The Brethren’s erroneous definition of a denomination is a part of their problem. Beyond that I would make a critique that while I appreciate your boldness, you do sound very self-important. At this point rather than trying to start something else, I would recommend joining yourself to a generic Evangelical church, and serve and pray and study for a while. Either you will put yourself in a place where you have to learn humility, or the Lord will force you to learn it. Better to make yourself a servant now rather than waiting for Providentially-ordered circumstances to make you one. Until you’re ready to be a servant, you aren’t ready to lead.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and exhortation. :)
People don't understand that.... bretheren church have a great history and martyrs of evangelists..... in India most of great Songs or Hyms are made by bretheren evangelists..... Now Bretheren Church in decline like every Church in the World.... Christianity in decline.... but The youth.... want to understand this and preach Gospel.... revival is needed.
I think what evangelicals think of as revival will happen when we start admitting our failures and dealing with our own issues/abuse and being intellectually honest about the scriptures and our experiences/history/science.
Very interested in your video Joshua. I’m living in Northern Ireland, and can sympathise totally with what you are saying. The Brethren movement,is in many ways a VIP club, for believers who believe themselves to be better than believers from baptist or another assembly. Brethrenism stinks, it’s never what God intended. I am a member of an open brethren assembly, we have music, and are fround upon for that, some people refusing to come and speak at our assembly simply because we have music. Would love your email address to get in touch ref your journey. David.
If you message me on facebook I can send you my email. :)
@@JoshuaRova After listening to your rant , don’t you think it’s time you opened your Bible and asked God give you directions as to what you should do with your life . From start to finish it reared self pride. Never once did I hear you mention the word of our Lord Jesus Christ. Read the book of Daniel and see what a young man can achieve by humbly obeying the Bible Gods word. Examine your self and strengthen the things that remain. 33:07
So kind and considerate of you. I had never thought about reading the Bible. I'm definitely going to immediately go and change the course of my life now because what better way to affect someone's life than to tell them they are proud and ignorant and call their search for truth and sharing of it an angry rant.🤣
@@kevindonovan3688 thanks for sharing your opinion. :)
I’m from the Gospel Hall assemblies in Canada. There is a tendency to be a bit of a VIP club, but I think that’s true for every church.
Hi brother! I left a comment 3 days ago, and I saw that you liked it, but I'm not sure if you are planning to reply back or not?
Yah. I'm sorry :/ it's similar to a lot of comments that I will address as soon as I can, possibly in video form. Not ignoring you, busy life, and it's a lot to process and publicize concise thoughts about.
@@JoshuaRova Thank you so much for your reply. It's all good. I just know that TH-cam can be funny sometimes with comments getting displaced and whatnot. Do not feel burdened in any way to respond to me. May the Lord be with you and comfort you and your family.
The Brethren assembly's are no different to any other religious cult or organisation. Affairs, pd files and nasty little dictators hiding behind a veil of moral superiority and exclusivity.
Very true...
If I could explain my thoughts upon the movement it may fill volumes of information but looking at the testimony of the Christian Faith as exemplified and expressed in the testimony of Gods Church throughout 20 centuries ....I can't see any other rule or governing order that more hinors the Lord according to what the Bible teaches and is practiced in the Christian Assemblies .
In these recent previous decades much testimony may have become weakened because of our own human frailty and weights that overcome us all in and outside of the Assembly and the Church of God and Jesus Christ .
If those of us who truly profess this faith with the ferver, love , kindness, holiness and sanctity in our own lives as professing believers and saints then the work of God may become stronger in gatherings and fellowship as well as the testimony within as well as without and throughout the world ...
but definitely the power of the Lord is much stronger in these Last Days in the Christian Assembly than anywhere else throughout Christendom and they would do to themselves much better if they understood better themselves .....
and never and not ttale their work to lightly before the Almighty God and Lord Jesus Christ who is present at every meeting ...
I myself have been guilty of this in previous years but it is no fault of God and Jesus Christ but my own self who has grieved His Holy Spirit greatly by common thought that the world and many loose practices in Christendom today ....
The Joy of the Lord is augmented and magnified in ourselves and between one another in the brethren as we honor Him and do , practice and share these truths and principles between those in the gathering and become less distracted by the affairs of thos world or fall into amy covetous behavior or lifestyle that may diminish the testimony of God and Jesus Christ
( pardon typos and type errors ....as I have attempted to avoid on. my mobile device as attempting to reply to this young fellow ... Press on , young one ..
Hi Joshua.. is there any way I could contact you? Would like to talk more about this video, if you’re available..
You can message me through facebook :)
@@JoshuaRova awww, what if im not on FB :)
You are welcome to reach out to me through facebook, facebook messenger, instagram, twitter, etc. You can email me @ joshsc1187t@yahoo.ca if none of those options work :)
@@wikitoriaripia8749then make one
Jonah 3:10, "And God saw their *works* that they turned from their wicked way and God repented of the evil that He had said that He would do unto them and He did it not."
*Clearly repentance of sins is works.*
Furthermore, sin is transgression of the law, therefore; repentance of sins is law keeping and is certainly a lifetime of works and has never saved anyone or contributed in any way to salvation.
This means that saving repentance is realizing that you are a sinner deserving of God's just punishment in Hell and turn (repent) from whatever you trusted in before, if indeed you trusted in anything; to trusting in the person and finished work of Christ alone for salvation.
How can you possibly trust Christ alone for salvation when you are also trusting in your performance?
Most of the street preachers you promote on your channel are faith plus works equals salvation heretics that talk grace through faith, say it's not by works but immediately declare that you must repent of your sins to be saved.
Please take this seriously because it's a Heaven or Hell issue.
Think of the savings now that you don't have to buy a new three piece suit every year!
I was never quite in that level of assembly but that is funny ;) I do know of some. Lol
I’m Gospel Hall, and that made me laugh. I will say some of the younger brothers don’t wear a suit to meeting.
@@CanadianMonarchist I grew up in it so GH was my inspiration for the comment :)
I’ll follow you.
Too much drama. Are you saved? I grew up in the 50s in a group of brethren
We had no name and in simplicity we remembered the Lord in His death and resurrection every Lord's day.
We are human and there's pride in all humans. In the flesh dwells NO good thing
I just found them scripturally sound but very severe and stifling, starchy suits with not much joy. The Victorian trappings (including the presentation art of the old fashioned wall verse paintings). They also were not good in teaching young and young converts. I felt very lonely in the Brethren. I thought it was very sweeping of you to say you are not a Calvinist, when scripturally most if not all the 5 points in TULIP seem so biblically underpinned.
There is a whiff of the Victorians in the Gospel Hall, but I love the Victorians. I’m sorry to hear you felt so lonely. ❤
Born into the same group and received many blessings and help from Christ loving and devotional servants of the Lord Jesus Christ. I found my Saviour - first at 10 and mature over the next 7 years and was encouraged to preach on the street and in Brethren halls for many years. I still say those hears were wonderful days and the deeper truths of God’s word was such a blessing! However, at about 37 I felt I had to leave which was very painful! The loss was only possible by Gods grace who supported my wife and 6 children through many difficult and wonderful experiences. I am now over 80 years old and longing to hear His call home to Glory. I listened to your message and feel like I have met a brother in Christ whom I would love to meet on Earth, but know - if not down here - it will be even greater in Glory!
Blessings dear brother 🤗
I am also thinking that these days brethren assemblies becoming so liberal, and worldly, that they follow all the pagan religious practices. But there is a fellowship called TW brethren where I find quite Godly practice.
You might be interested in a Channel Called David Alexander.
But why did you left
If you didn't understand the 30 minute video I'm probably not going to clear it up in a 2 paragraph comment. ;) sorry. Peace to you.
@@JoshuaRova but dear.. You left the fellowship because you see some of them living luxurious life, but I have encountered many of them who didn't get food for two times.. And I think you didnot get it brother.. Because if everything is written in Bible and they are applying it.. Then how come this becomes an issue or hurting anybodys faith.
I think there is a misunderstanding. :) this is the risk of saying things that are generalizations to a large audience. I know not everything I mentioned as a concern is a problem in every church or every part of the world.
28:40 Good for not falling into the Calvinism. It's wrong. But don't give up on finding a Good denomination
What does the brethren say who Jesus is?
They would say basically the same as most of the orthodox church throughout the vocal majority of church history.
Very God of Very God, Begotten Not Made, the Saviour of the World
Joshua I don't know if you will ever look under the Rock of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, but it may be a Blessing in your Life. Regardless I Love you Brother, and Hope you have a Wonderful Weekend.
If that's helpful for you where you are at in your life right now then I'm glad for you :) I will not be joining a higher control group than the one I've left :)
@@JoshuaRova Are you sure its a Higher Control Group? Your old Church sounded pretty intense, and when I was raised in Calvary Chapel the stuff I must admit what they showed us in terms of Indoctrination made the Latterday Saints look like an Evil Cult. Either way General Conference is Tomorrow, coincidentally you can check it out here on TH-cam. And I can Promise you from Life experience that its not what you believe it is.
God Bless Brother Rova.
@@JoshuaRova My last comment appears to have been deleted, but just in case my question then is How do you know its worse then the one you Left?
I haven't deleted any comments. I am not interested in having a discussion about high control religious fundamentalist groups right now though. Thank you for your input :)
@@JoshuaRova Oh weird. Okay I put in another Comment, and it never went through it was basicly instantaneous so I believe you, we live in strange times. Either way to define it organizationally by those terms sounds more like what I was told to believe in my Old Church about the Church I'm apart of Now. I haven't found it to be the Case, but rather it could be defined by the Generations in Charge. Boomers value Loyalty over Authenticity. And I value Truth over Loyalty I could care less what somebody tells me if it Contradicts the Gospel. so on that note I Hope you have a Blessed Sunday Brother.
when we get home 🏡 to heaven we be one in Christ.. until then there will be conflicts and confusions in any circle of Bible churches you choose... just preach the Bible and the gospel meeting message Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ 🙏 and thy house. you will surely find controlling people in just about every circle of churches.. we all are little rascals
Thanks for sharing :)
"we are all little rascals" i like that
I belong to Plymouth Brethren church since I was born. Their principle is based on the NT teachings. Since in my teens, we had a new pastor who knows the every word in the Bible almost by heart and who is very humble and gets along well with everybody from all religions, who is also burdened for every soul. He became a respectable person among all denominations of Christian Faith. He always quote this verse: Eccl 7: 16 Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself ? Unquote We are very hurt and saddened because he went to be with the Lord last week at age 92. However, do what you believe you should be doing. Instead of telling people in public what you don’t like about this church, I would rather you pray them. We have no right to judge others. It’s between them and God.
I'm glad you are happy in what you are experiencing :) I am sharing what I experienced to benefit the brethren and the people who could be harmed by them. And I absolutely have the right to do that. It's hard to talk to most of them in a church setting because typically you will be silenced or banished for that.
I also think I was pretty clear that I wasn't casting judgements on individuals but rather pointing out flaws in a man made system.
God speaketh once yea twice you will regret what you have done the 😢the Lord lord spoke to me 60 yeas ago he said this is the way walk ye in it
I I I I I I I …..maybe humble thyself
thanks :) good thoughts.
I would like to know where to find a group of believers that doesn't have any issues. After all, we are only sinners saved by grace. The best of men/women are only men/women at best. I understand where you are coming from and your obvious disillusionment. But please don't make such broad generalizations. I know many loving, truly humble, hard-working, God fearing elders who tremble at the decisions they must make before the Lord. And they are accountable for every one of them. And I know hundreds of assembly believers who don't think they are the only ones that God blesses. I'm sorry that your experience has been a negative one and that the elders and believers you know have been such apparent duds. One thing I do know is that Christ would have us gather to His Name alone following the principles that He cherishes and revealed to the apostles. Have we failed? Certainly. Have we missed the mark? Assuredly. Are we less than we should be? Without a doubt. But spoiler alert. You'll find the same wherever you go and whomever you join. Prayerfully, keep your mind open to God's leading, and your heart warm with His love. God bless.
You do rather sweep the "brethren" all in the same basket . Where I go there is no hierarchy no headquarters not even local leadership. No suits and ties and everyone including the homeless . But when you compare f.i. the PBCC ,yes than you're in the wrong company.
I understand, but there is no real effective way to say much of anything about any system of thought without making some moderately unfair sweeping generalizations that don't perfectly represent every individual in the system of thought. I think I tried my best to recognize that reality. :) thx for sharing.
That’s wonderful you hare homeless people visiting your assembly! I think it’s good to dress up for meeting, but I would rather people come in casual clothes than not come at all.
Malcolm Radcliffei and😂😊 33:08 she 😂❤e
I also want to say that in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints Women are Treated with Equity, and Respect. It is a Lay Clergy not a Proffessional Clergy. The Bishop Follows the Admonition of Paul and does not receive compensation, but Labors with His own Hands. The question is could you honestly read the Book of Mormon with a Sincere, Heart, and Real Intent? Few people seem too without being Puffed up. But as Critical of it all I could not stop reading, and one day I received a Witness of that Book, and more things began to happen in my Life, and it hasn't been the same since. before that for 36 Years I was an Evangelical Christian of various denominations, but to be honest some of the things I believed were an Abomination before the Lord, and I even messaged my Old Pastor, and told him I am sorry for all the things I had done. The Book of Mormon put into my Heart that Call for Repentance, but I Testify to you that The Holy Bible is God's Word.
How are you?
I'm alive. :)
Number 1 your point about doctrine being above unity relates only to some assemblies in the world. Maybe it relates more to some nations than to other nations.
Surely doctrine being false or true IS the dividing line. (However some things portrayed as "doctrine" are not as critical as others).
Sorry I didn't understand what u mean said a lot but really nothing need to be more specific on your points
Most likely the poor man has the important thing missing and he could be still in spiritual darkness , that is not saved ,
I don't understand your sentence construction at all. :/
You dont understand Josh because he is saved by the finished work of Christ and His grace rather than conformity to a system.
Cannot help but notice that your usage of “ I , me and my” dominates this message.
But I do agree that the assemblies are far from perfect , they are made up of sinners saved by grace.
But the error and flaws you point out, are mostly true of every Christian on the planet, including you.
The bible does teach , to “forsake not the assembling of yourselves together” , so what do you do with several dozen true born again believers all living in close proximity of each other?
Are they all to be islands and separate from each other, as yourself? They are to meet somewhere and looking about the apostasy that has enveloped most other churches, I would rather take my chances in a brethren assembly, flaws and all.
It appears to me that you will do more damage to the body of Christ by indirectly encouraging “brethren” to leave a fellowship and do as you do.
Thanks for sharing. None of what you said has really anything to do with the actual things I shared though...
@@JoshuaRovaIts exactly what I said. This video is all about you and your rebellion against a new testament assembly. Assemblies are not perfect and neither are you. Believers are not meant to be islands.
Oh dear... I'm sorry that you believe that the only "new testament assembly" is the one you agree with. How shortsighted and hurtful to Jesus church as a whole... that's an odd accusation to make to someone you don't even really know but I'm glad you have the freedom to make it. :)
@@artbook1611 I first joined the Brethren in 1970 when I was sixteen. I was told that in the meetings a woman was to wear a head covering. At that time the mini-skirt was in fashion. A lot of those Brethren girls would wear the shortest skirts. What is the point of a woman wearing a head covering when the rest of her body was not covered? I would see Mormon girls that dressed with more modesty than than Brethren girls. It is bad when a cult can produce women who dress with more decency than a Christian assembly. The Brethren are a joke.
@@artbook1611 I noticed you said “I” in this message…
Brother, I myself am a 26-year-old guy from Canada who has listened and benefited from your video. Some of my extended family have been getting involved with the Brethren assemblies, and I had never heard of them before. I had gone to a service with them two weeks ago with an "open mind." They had passed me a hymnbook with an inscription inside that explains who they are. From there, I knew I had to make more research. I then learned that there is what's called the Open Brethren and the Exclusive Brethren (?)
Nonetheless, my biggest desire at this point is just to know how you are doing today. Have you been doing okay since leaving the Brethren community?
Also, I just want to reiterate how much your video has been a blessing to me. I am excited to read through the comments here as well. I see a lot of me and my heart in you, man, and I know the struggle of "not fitting in this world." I look forward to hopefully hearing from you, man!
Dear Brother Josh,
I watched your video, and I was very touched by it.
I had a similar experience in the past and perhaps I could help you a bit by sharing a few things I learned.
First, I was so happy to acknowledge the soundness of your “so called” theology.
Your Christian background is a real blessing from God.
Although I have never been in contact with the Brethren, I consider their teachings the most sound from among all Christian groups.
Besides, I personally consider that the top teachers of the Brethren, in the first half of the 19th century, did more to “open the Bible” than Martin Luther and the other early reformers.
However, unfortunately with the success, very often pride, arrogance and self-praise come along.
And this is a serious matter because, in spite of the soundness of its biblical understanding, the thing that keeps a congregation alive and spiritually healthy is the light which is dispensed out of the heavenly throne day by day.
And whenever pride shows up, this light dims a little (or a lot).
It’s like that old “showers of blessing” hymn that you may be familiar with.
Our church life is always somewhere between the “showers of blessing” and the “mercy-drops”. And pride is a major factor that pushes us to the “dry side”.
Whenever you experience “Philadelphia”, like the Brethren did in the 1820’s and 30’s, you should watch because the next step may be “Laodicea”.
A brother who is a dear friend of mine put it in a very good way:
It’s like if all of us Christians were in a very dark room, trying to figure out the pieces of furniture by the touch. By the mercy of the Lord, we get to discern and understand many truths of the Holy Book, however nobody has it all completely figured out.
And that’s why we should be very humble.
Therefore, brother, you should not worry about your “theology”. It is fine!
However, your understanding of the practical “church life” is going through changes.
And it is on this point that I feel I should share something with you:
Like everything else in your Christian life, you need “God’s light” to assess your understanding about church practice.
You must be guided by God!
The proper foundation in God’s word you already have, now you need God to lighten you up in the dark room of the practical church life.
Unfortunately, we Christians, who depend on God for most problems, tend to resolve our church life issues just with the use of your mind and our biblical background.
Actually brother, I can hardly find major Christian teachers who handle these church issues with light and anointing.
I recommend that you read Watchman Nee on his studies about the church practice.
There may be a few points on Watchman Nee’s messages that perhaps we would not agree today.
As a matter of fact, by the end of his life, he himself had more light on many issues and changed many aspects of his original vision.
But what is really remarkable is the anointing and the divine light he brings when he exposes his vision concerning the practice of the Christian congregation.
You could also try to find some material by Austin Sparks.
God uses these “spiritual giants” from the past to bring us light.
And like I said, not many teachers deal with the church practice in a realm of light and anointing.
Even J. N. Darby, who I admire so much, was not “fantastic” when dealing with this issue.
I read a couple of Darby’s papers dealing with his controversies with Benjamin Newton. Unfortunately, I could not grasp much anointing in those writings. Lots of biblical knowledge, the reasonings of a very brilliant mind. But very little anointing.
Anointing and “showers of blessing” is what you need now to decide how to go on.
Dear Lord, I stand here with our brother Josh.
Give him light, Lord, in his present experience.
I ask you, Lord, that, although painful, his present crossroads experience may be a great blessing in his life.
Allow Lord that this situation brings him to another level of knowing and serving you.
He loves you, Lord! And he has been paying a price to serve you and your children.
Put the right brothers and sisters in his entourage.
And bind your enemy in his life!
Don’t let Josh be discouraged and distracted by the current situation.
In your name we pray to you and thank you.
Amen.
thanks for sharing :)
Hello, thanks for sharing your thoughts. Do you happen to know from which branch of the brethren movement you left? I am quite bewildered by the role you describe the elders as having. Coming from the assemblies in Europe, the common observation is that in the more 'closed' assemblies, the naming of elders is rejected as not being applicable nowadays given that there is no-one with the authority to name them, while in more 'open' assemblies, which might have named elders, the elders hardly have the authority you describe, because the assemblies have an 'open' position.
Hey, I believe in North America "open" assemblies include both closed table and open table assemblies and the "open" is to distinguish them from "exclusive". Almost every brethren assembly that I know of now believes in recognizing elders other than some very closed or exclusive settings where the elders may just be publicly not recognized and kind of under a non official authority of traveling speakers. Virtually in every church that has a leader or group of elders, that leadership does have very extensive authority, and you are seen as more spiritual if you seek out more of their guidance than if you do not. Almost nothing, including authority, is explicitly stated in these kinds of groups, but is strongly implied. That's the best I got for you :) thanks for asking.
@@JoshuaRova Thank you for the clarification.
Great video Brother. Growing up in the Ghospel Hall it sounds like you may have been on the little more stricter side of things, but totally understand where you are coming from. I left home at 20 and joined the military (something that is kind of frowned upon in some circles) and that drew me away. The biggest issue I had when attending other churches were they they did not worship like I felt that a church (or assembly) should. I understand your frustration. I am not sure where you will go from here, but I can say this. I have had better conversations about the Lord over a couple of pints of beer in a German bar than I have ever had at a "sing" on a Sunday night after the Ghospel Meeting.
I was also in this kind of church. I left after almost 6 years with depression, confusion, hopelessness and suicidal. I didn't know that I was in a brethren church since I am a woman. I was ostracized, ignored, nobody helped me but they were helping the brothers. I lacked guidance as I was useless to them. They are highly narcisistic, misogynistic and patriarchical.
So sorry. Thx for sharing.❤️
I’m Gospel Hall Brethren and struggle with depression and suicidal ideation. I certainly don’t consider myself “narcissistic, judgemental, and patriarchal,” but it’s possible I’m in Fantasyland. I hope that you have been able to get the help you need.