Richard you give the common wanna go fast guys like myself so much knowledge, Thank you for all the hard work and research you do!! You are the man!! Good stuff!! 👍
Great video. Thanks for all the work you do. If anybody is interested in the Carbon pTR intake for LS3 or LS7, it is available on our website for $1299.99.
Reccallo TimTom I don’t really get why people say this so much; on paper absolutely but in my personal experiences of two different combos the aftermarket units that are well made all make more power up top and with the right cam and good heads the thrust is unparalleled but the loss of low end is hardly if ever noticeable. With a manual it’s a non issue with an auto just setup your stall and lockup correctly and your gtg. LS3 is fine for stock but once your heads and/or cam you need a better piece.
jet guy I’m not an NA guy but I picked up almost 60whp on an L92 going from LS3 to my FITech setup with a 6870 gen 2 from PTE. My only NA experiences with the LS3 piece was on a very strange small bore/long stroke 383 LS combo with adapter plates and all kind of nonsense but it made significant gains with a 102 intake and while it did lose down low over the Ls3 we never felt it in the car.
That Edelbrock ProFlo and your intake dyno test is why when I built my 11.8CR 240/250 .623 .617 114 WCCH Stage 2 LS3 head 416ci in my Trailblazer SS ran the stock Cadillac Escalade L92 intake. Alot of the after intakes lose so much down low it would have slowed down my TBSS so much.
You pulled the plenum off a running engine? That's got to be a legendary stunt in dyno cell history! I mean, the engine effectively didn't have any throttle plates.
I daily my stock bottom end LS3 with the Pro Flo. I love it. The PRC 260s and 243/255-111 TSP cam loves it too. Gained 19rwhp over my old mid runner FAST. I didn't care for losing anything under 6000rpm since I run a 6000 stall lol. I recommend the manifold to the 5th gen Camaro guys over the High Ram because it makes the same power and it clears the stock hood.
All of this intake testing on an LS proves one thing. The LS setup is optimized. The heads, rotating assembly, and cam choices are within a very functional range for 6.2 liters of displacement. An RHS stroker motor allows big enough displacement to put the operating speed lower for a bigger cam. But what about the coyote? Let's just say the LS and coyote heads flow very similarly (which they do). 6200 RPM on an LS is 7700 RPM on a coyote. 250 degrees of camshaft duration would add 30% to the LS operating speed, so 8100 RPM, and we're just not able to pull that off without a big stroke. 250 degrees of camshaft duration on a 12:1 coyote would require something to the tune of 10,000 RPM.
The old rule to use is that hp increases must not require too many extra revs to get a return. The attribute or factor to look for here is the greatest power at the least rpm. 4.07 bore by 4 inch stroke is 416 cubes. Cubes times 6500 rpm divided by 660 hp is a 4097 Ai factor. Cubes X Peak power rpm / gross hp = Aspirations Index. The lower the number, the better. Any time you get best indicted horsepower at a proportionally low rpm peak, your normally making a better brake specific fuel consumption and bmep. Then go back track to torque and make sure you dont lose too much. Still making 1.32 lb -ft per cube at 4500 rpm. Thats still "enough". The Carbon Fibre Edelbrock intake with long runner stub stacks does the best hp for every rpm, bu additionally, continues it past the power peak! This is NOT lipstick; this is Pure Power. Fords Australian Falcon T3 342 cube ohv 5.6 liter stroker 5.0 was using the same system in 2002, and made only a 5360 aspirations index, net hp was 335 at 5250 on a 342 cube engine. The improvement is huge with modern intakes. Buy, use and tune a Pro Flow XT! Thanks RH.
That's fantastic that you stood there and lifted the top off while it was WOT. I suppose when it was past peak Steve gave you the high sign and you plopped it back on so he could have throttle control. Very cool.
Im a Ford dude, but I still watch all this valuable info. Gota know what the competition is doing. Them LS engine's are great, definitely not knocking them..then came the Coyote. 🤣☕👍
See man, I'd really like to get my hands on a late 70s, early 80s Cutlass (G body) or an early to mid 80s Regal coupe and swap in a LS3 with a Tremec 6 speed manual, long tube headers, full 3.5" duals with no cats back to either Flowmaster Super 40s or Borla mufflers, and a good BTR cam like this one with high lift and duration (which I'm sure required springs and retainers), and a big honking intake like this one (assuming it'll fit under the hood). I have just always had a soft spot for those big lead sled Oldsmobiles and Buicks and as another guy said, it's really hard to beat the LS3.
QUESTIONS: 1) If the individual injectors were ditched for a throttle-body injector, would you experience charge cooling? 2) Is the intake flow evenly distributed across all the cylinders? and, 3) on a short runner design, it seems that the BMEP is lower so, could you raise the static CR to increase the torque while retaining the higher peak power advantage? Thanks
Can you do a test on a Harrop Hurricane LS3 manifold against stock one please, Would be great to see the difference between an quad throttle body manifold against the stock one.
I wonder how the proflo xt manifold does on a big block. I assume similar, but i want to see what it is like compared to a single plane system that usually come in a fuel injection kit(and maybe a dual plane just because you're there LOL)
I wish the aftermarket would dump this much effort into sbc efi intakes. You could better justify the cost because the gains would be more as opposed to LS stuff.
Was that manifold designed for a Marine application due to the price, lightweight and corrosion free or strictly for sanctioning NA competitions like touring cars or endurance type competitions, they are the only ones that can afford it. Hope you and your lowed ones are doing ok and far from the harm of the wildfires in California, stay safe and keep the videos coming.
I understand. I dropped a mass storage device... lost thousands of pictures and dozens of videos 😢.. The disk inside shattered when it hit the ground 😭.
That’s a beautiful intake. You mentioned billety good ness. Wouldn’t happen to have a $4,000 frankenstein ls billet intake Layin around? Billet vs carbon intake.
It would be interesting to see how much power loss is from a 92 mm back to a 70 mm throttle body. Since the old school throttle bodies 4 Fox body's 70 mm was big and 75 mm was huge. I realize it's Ford and Chevy but does the throttle body size affect horsepower that much naturally aspirated
Years ago we go that pro-flow style intake for a BBC. The boss talked to Vick at PRI and we go an early one. I thought it odd how skinny the common area was verse the runners and when the motor go to around 3500 and up the rear 4 would go rich because they couldn't get enough air. I don't know how the LS3 version compares, but it looks similar. Did you check if they were all getting a good even mixture?
Can we get a video explaining the 5250 hp/tq crossover. I had never heard of that until you said something about it in one of your other videos. Is it universal for every engine? Is that due to the hp formula?
Richard, How's it coming with the "Other Big Guys" project? Inquiring minds want to know. I'm especially interested in that Big Block Cadillac. Please don't forget us "other guys." Best, Darius
Holley HP units are stand alone (no factory computer required). With a carb you’ll need something to provide ignition, usually an MSD box. Holley Dominator EFI does that by itself, as does theirTerminator. You’ll need Holley’s wiring harness (comes with the package) as the computer connections are all different.
@@bdugle1 my guy thanks a bunch on this info. Are there cheaper alternatives to this ? I mean I know there's one called fueltech, but that's probably same or more money. I'm not familiar with the others. They probably come with some kind of tune as well to getcha going. That right there is one of my big fears of beginning my first real deal LS build. I'm doin as much as research as I can now. While I'm finishing up on the savings. And big thanks again
I think Terminator is the cheapest for a quality aftermarket unit. It will run an LS directly, with the sensors that come on the engine. The Max version lets you control drive-by-wire and/or a 4L60/80, I think. You have to buy the model for your engine, Gen 3 or 4, because the reluctorvwheel and cam sensors are different. These are about $1000 to start, with harness and computer. Add more for the Max if you need trans or throttle control, about $300, I think.
Has anyone tried to make a carbon fiber engine block? That would be fun to at least try. Of course it couldn’t be all carbon fiber but the bulk of it could. Steel sleeves and inserts for all of the connection points.
Richard you give the common wanna go fast guys like myself so much knowledge, Thank you for all the hard work and research you do!! You are the man!! Good stuff!! 👍
Very welcome
The GM engineers knew what they were doing...I’d take that low end power increase any day 😯
Great video. Thanks for all the work you do. If anybody is interested in the Carbon pTR intake for LS3 or LS7, it is available on our website for $1299.99.
Another episode of “hard to beat the LS3 manifold” for a driver...
Yep
It's true brother. The LS3 is an all around beast...and that's coming from an import guy.
Reccallo TimTom I don’t really get why people say this so much; on paper absolutely but in my personal experiences of two different combos the aftermarket units that are well made all make more power up top and with the right cam and good heads the thrust is unparalleled but the loss of low end is hardly if ever noticeable. With a manual it’s a non issue with an auto just setup your stall and lockup correctly and your gtg. LS3 is fine for stock but once your heads and/or cam you need a better piece.
that and the LS3 manifold is nice and low profile and like $250
jet guy I’m not an NA guy but I picked up almost 60whp on an L92 going from LS3 to my FITech setup with a 6870 gen 2 from PTE. My only NA experiences with the LS3 piece was on a very strange small bore/long stroke 383 LS combo with adapter plates and all kind of nonsense but it made significant gains with a 102 intake and while it did lose down low over the Ls3 we never felt it in the car.
That Edelbrock ProFlo and your intake dyno test is why when I built my 11.8CR 240/250 .623 .617 114 WCCH Stage 2 LS3 head 416ci in my Trailblazer SS ran the stock Cadillac Escalade L92 intake. Alot of the after intakes lose so much down low it would have slowed down my TBSS so much.
2:24 Buy a SSD hard drive on all computers.
Thanks for all your hard work.
That TQ curve....500ft# out to 6500 rpm..
You should do more series 2 3800 tests
More great work. There sure is an embarrassment of riches when it comes to available LS intakes. Pretty amazing what's available
You pulled the plenum off a running engine? That's got to be a legendary stunt in dyno cell history! I mean, the engine effectively didn't have any throttle plates.
Yes
Eh, no. You shut the engine off... You also need to remove the fuel rails.
I daily my stock bottom end LS3 with the Pro Flo. I love it. The PRC 260s and 243/255-111 TSP cam loves it too. Gained 19rwhp over my old mid runner FAST. I didn't care for losing anything under 6000rpm since I run a 6000 stall lol. I recommend the manifold to the 5th gen Camaro guys over the High Ram because it makes the same power and it clears the stock hood.
All of this intake testing on an LS proves one thing. The LS setup is optimized. The heads, rotating assembly, and cam choices are within a very functional range for 6.2 liters of displacement. An RHS stroker motor allows big enough displacement to put the operating speed lower for a bigger cam.
But what about the coyote? Let's just say the LS and coyote heads flow very similarly (which they do). 6200 RPM on an LS is 7700 RPM on a coyote. 250 degrees of camshaft duration would add 30% to the LS operating speed, so 8100 RPM, and we're just not able to pull that off without a big stroke. 250 degrees of camshaft duration on a 12:1 coyote would require something to the tune of 10,000 RPM.
What is the intake valve diameter of a Coyote?
The old rule to use is that hp increases must not require too many extra revs to get a return. The attribute or factor to look for here is the greatest power at the least rpm. 4.07 bore by 4 inch stroke is 416 cubes. Cubes times 6500 rpm divided by 660 hp is a 4097 Ai factor. Cubes X Peak power rpm / gross hp = Aspirations Index. The lower the number, the better. Any time you get best indicted horsepower at a proportionally low rpm peak, your normally making a better brake specific fuel consumption and bmep. Then go back track to torque and make sure you dont lose too much. Still making 1.32 lb -ft per cube at 4500 rpm. Thats still "enough". The Carbon Fibre Edelbrock intake with long runner stub stacks does the best hp for every rpm, bu additionally, continues it past the power peak! This is NOT lipstick; this is Pure Power. Fords Australian Falcon T3 342 cube ohv 5.6 liter stroker 5.0 was using the same system in 2002, and made only a 5360 aspirations index, net hp was 335 at 5250 on a 342 cube engine. The improvement is huge with modern intakes. Buy, use and tune a Pro Flow XT! Thanks RH.
Finally I've been waiting and waiting on a fast hr test. Seems better on the street than a Holley high ram...
That's fantastic that you stood there and lifted the top off while it was WOT. I suppose when it was past peak Steve gave you the high sign and you plopped it back on so he could have throttle control. Very cool.
we just shut the ignition off
@@richardholdener1727 yepy, copy that, but my mind's image of you putting it back on is way more fun. Good stuff, love what you do
Im a Ford dude, but I still watch all this valuable info. Gota know what the competition is doing. Them LS engine's are great, definitely not knocking them..then came the Coyote. 🤣☕👍
Nowadays when an oem develops a performance engine they do it right, especially when you consider the regulations they need abide by
Lifted the top off while running wide open! You win...
I wonder if OSHA would have any heartburn over that....
The carbon tr is definitely desirable but will it fit under stock hoods????
Factory Intake still an excellent option, perhaps the best, when it comes to a street driven vehicle.
The lsxhr intake from fast is awesome.
This is the intake I would use if I had an LS3 headed engine.
That's a promising intake, isn't it!
See man, I'd really like to get my hands on a late 70s, early 80s Cutlass (G body) or an early to mid 80s Regal coupe and swap in a LS3 with a Tremec 6 speed manual, long tube headers, full 3.5" duals with no cats back to either Flowmaster Super 40s or Borla mufflers, and a good BTR cam like this one with high lift and duration (which I'm sure required springs and retainers), and a big honking intake like this one (assuming it'll fit under the hood). I have just always had a soft spot for those big lead sled Oldsmobiles and Buicks and as another guy said, it's really hard to beat the LS3.
Thanks for another one Richard trust me your helping a lot of guys get way faster for way less my Brother💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻
QUESTIONS: 1) If the individual injectors were ditched for a throttle-body injector, would you experience charge cooling? 2) Is the intake flow evenly distributed across all the cylinders? and, 3) on a short runner design, it seems that the BMEP is lower so, could you raise the static CR to increase the torque while retaining the higher peak power advantage? Thanks
yes on tbs charge cooling (like a carb), not sure on distribution(was not measured), yes on more compression
Pulling the top off also proved that it wasn't TB limited. Pretty cool stuff.
that was one of the tests-but also changes plenum
Can you do a test on a Harrop Hurricane LS3 manifold against stock one please,
Would be great to see the difference between an quad throttle body manifold against the stock one.
HOW ABOUT THE BTR MANIFOLD and how much HP does a turbo engine loose with a air cleaner and exhaust pipes and mufflers like in a car?
Thanks Richard, who needs a throttle?
Build a long tube equal length no plenum intake headers
Maybe one day try the stock FI intake vs. the Victor with and without a carburetor on 4.6 Modular Ford?
I have
I wonder how the proflo xt manifold does on a big block. I assume similar, but i want to see what it is like compared to a single plane system that usually come in a fuel injection kit(and maybe a dual plane just because you're there LOL)
I wanna see someone make a complete engine out of carbon fiber
With the stock pc working so well in the usable rpm range. Unless your on a circle track. These others are no better.
I wish the aftermarket would dump this much effort into sbc efi intakes. You could better justify the cost because the gains would be more as opposed to LS stuff.
Do you need any help backing up you stuff? I do IT for a living, happy to give you some tips if you'd like.
Richard please do some more LS7 intake manifold testing- your buddy Peyton Brandenburg!
Ported LS3 VS THE WORLD!!!
Factory intake is a really good piece.
I wonder if you put your head in front of the intake will it improve flow? =)
My buddy says that a stock LS3 intake with a metal rod run through the runners makes more power than stock. Have you ever seen or heard of this?
I have not tested those yet
Was that manifold designed for a Marine application due to the price, lightweight and corrosion free or strictly for sanctioning NA competitions like touring cars or endurance type competitions, they are the only ones that can afford it.
Hope you and your lowed ones are doing ok and far from the harm of the wildfires in California, stay safe and keep the videos coming.
I understand. I dropped a mass storage device... lost thousands of pictures and dozens of videos 😢..
The disk inside shattered when it hit the ground 😭.
Some HDD platters are made from glass these days :-(
That’s a beautiful intake. You mentioned billety good ness. Wouldn’t happen to have a $4,000 frankenstein ls billet intake Layin around? Billet vs carbon intake.
no sir, but billety goodness intakes are nice
Cid 4500 vs carbon?
It would be interesting to see how much power loss is from a 92 mm back to a 70 mm throttle body. Since the old school throttle bodies 4 Fox body's 70 mm was big and 75 mm was huge. I realize it's Ford and Chevy but does the throttle body size affect horsepower that much naturally aspirated
the 75 was actually undersized for a good 5.0L-especially for a 351
If I spent any money on an intake manifold that costly...it may as well be money towards a blower/supercharger/turbo.
Fro-Flo intake/ throttle body vs carb on a NA and Boosted SBC?
Can you test metal sheat lid top on holley high ram
Years ago we go that pro-flow style intake for a BBC. The boss talked to Vick at PRI and we go an early one. I thought it odd how skinny the common area was verse the runners and when the motor go to around 3500 and up the rear 4 would go rich because they couldn't get enough air. I don't know how the LS3 version compares, but it looks similar. Did you check if they were all getting a good even mixture?
I did not test distribution
Would love to see some testing of the Holley low ram
But if it could be on a 5.3 turbo that would be perfect haha
I would possibly be willing to mail you one to test that actually
that is a very high rpm intake and is not a good choice for most 5.3Ls
Can we get a video explaining the 5250 hp/tq crossover. I had never heard of that until you said something about it in one of your other videos. Is it universal for every engine? Is that due to the hp formula?
The94GTC I understand the HP formula, but does that make the crossover always happen at the same place on every engine?
yes-they always cross at 5252
I'm guessing you didn't try it without the removable runners?
with no radiused entry it would be less power
Richard,
How's it coming with the "Other Big Guys" project? Inquiring minds want to know. I'm especially interested in that Big Block Cadillac.
Please don't forget us "other guys."
Best,
Darius
HEADING OUT TO SEE COURTNEY FOR CADDY TESTING
Richard Holdener
THANK YOU!!
Darius
I got a suggestion have you try the twin throttle bodies intakes
I tested both the holley and edelbrock twin throttle body X rams-videos are up
upload in hp please, 720p is blury
If you're running Holley EFI or dominator, do you still have to use the factory ECU??? I'm trying to understand these ls things. Anyone?
Holley HP units are stand alone (no factory computer required). With a carb you’ll need something to provide ignition, usually an MSD box. Holley Dominator EFI does that by itself, as does theirTerminator. You’ll need Holley’s wiring harness (comes with the package) as the computer connections are all different.
@@bdugle1 my guy thanks a bunch on this info. Are there cheaper alternatives to this ? I mean I know there's one called fueltech, but that's probably same or more money. I'm not familiar with the others. They probably come with some kind of tune as well to getcha going. That right there is one of my big fears of beginning my first real deal LS build. I'm doin as much as research as I can now. While I'm finishing up on the savings. And big thanks again
I think Terminator is the cheapest for a quality aftermarket unit. It will run an LS directly, with the sensors that come on the engine. The Max version lets you control drive-by-wire and/or a 4L60/80, I think. You have to buy the model for your engine, Gen 3 or 4, because the reluctorvwheel and cam sensors are different. These are about $1000 to start, with harness and computer. Add more for the Max if you need trans or throttle control, about $300, I think.
@@bdugle1 bro. You saved me a search and some. I appreciate that!!! Thank you Brian
Finnaly the Proflo I've been waiting for this one lol
Do you have any Honda videos
Ok, we need to get you a 1080p camera, lol.
and a serious backup system - this man has some valuable data!
@@BLKMGK4 he should be running RAID6
it's 4 hard drives in tandem
that makes it basically impossible to lose data
@@3rdGenGuy Lots oif options, RAID isn't backup...
I have a Camera-just been shooting with my phone lately
How are fires treating you, how close is the LNU fire?
we had to evacuate my dad
Can u run the pro flo intake with a holley computer
yes
That carbon tr intake is only 300 bucks more than the plastic fasst version..it’s $1300 without fuel rails.
So sad you lost all that footage on 2 hard drives. I would have gone crazy especially if I lost non-work related footage (family/friends).
Has anyone tried to make a carbon fiber engine block? That would be fun to at least try. Of course it couldn’t be all carbon fiber but the bulk of it could. Steel sleeves and inserts for all of the connection points.
Maybe carbon ceramic.
Interesting... Thanks.
It's not a bonus if we don't get to hear the motors run
Right on
Great video
You know GM literally tunes their manifolds like a musical instrument.
Backup! Backup...to eternal hard drives.
👐
So its really lipstick and not worth the extra money!
93.5k 🐿🐿🐿🐿
Personally I blame squirrels
thumbed