I think Alec would have appreciated the officialization of this Innocenti model. Maybe the Gandini design was too Italian. Thanks for the complete documentary. The only note: after the change of ownership to De Tomaso, it does not mention the experiment of equipping the Italian Mini with 850 cc Guzzi engines, then part of the De Tomaso group. Last note: the Mini Gandini was developed with very limited funds and initially met with excellent success. While the classic Mini continued to be successful.
There’s no question in my mind this car with that styling would have been a major success. The Talbot Samba sold…. With BL branding and keeping the design the same - the one case where lazy rebadging would really work… this would have sold like hot cakes! I imagine especially existing mini owners, wanting something more up to date and with that hatchback. Why, and how, did BL manage to clutch defeat from the jaws of success so many times?!! Corporate suicide 101.
@@johngibson3837 Hi I remember several articles and technical drawings in sector magazines such as Quattroruote and Gente Motori from the times, which followed the story. I found Quattroruote July 1984. Strangely, I can't find anything on the internet, whereas at the time there was quite a lot of talk about it.. Extensive testing was conducted to make the air-cooled 2-cylinder engine automotive; the car already had a name, MiniDue, De Tomaso moved the presentation several times and then decided to purchase the Daihatsu 650 engines. The De Tomaso group had many brands (Innocenti, Maserati, De Tomaso, Moto Guzzi, Benelli) and little capital. Incredible how with little finances he managed to carry forward and develop so many projects, mentioning the major ones: Maserati Quattroporte, Biturbo, Innocenti MiniTre, De Tomaso Pantera, Benelli Sei (cylinders), Guzzi 254.
Innocenti had done all the work to make a modern mini. BL should have used it and said a very big thank you to them. Instead it had a tantrum and threw it's toys out of the pram.
In Italy it had great success at the beginning, which continued in some particular regions, where the towns have narrow streets and few parking spaces, such as in Liguria (which is now in fact full of Pandas and 600s). Same in Italy, the Mini Innocenti held a sort of record in the percentage of owners who replaced it with a new one.
What a great video. What a shame Leyland were so short sighted. They had so many opportunities. I live in Australia and BMC/Leyland had a huge manufacturing facility here. They did great things and built great cars, but were always controlled by British management. It’s like the British hated someone else doing something better than they could. Obviously Italy could do things better as Australia did with the Mini Deluxe with wind up windows. Innocent made a smart looking Mini update. BL couldn’t compete, so they tried to destroy it. So many lost opportunities. It’s sad Leyland crashed, but the management deserved it. Such a shame.
If only British Leyland handed Leyland Australia the rights and patterns etc to build the Rover SD1 here in Australia instead of the P76. We could have shown BL how to build the SD1 properly. It would have been a massive success and change car design in Australia forward 30 years
It's unfair to claim Australia was first to introduce wind up to the mini. They had been available as after market kits, plus it was only one year later (1966) when BMC introduced doors with concealed hinges with one piece windows on the MK3 Riley Elf and Wolseley Hornet. Obviously, Australia needed fully opening windows to survive in the warmer climate 🥵 but you was stuck with those dated external hinges and quarterlights windows until production ended 😱
I knew of 3 Innocenti Minis bought brand new in the mid 70's and was fascinated by them. One was owned by a family friend who would meet with the other two regularly. Lovely cars, as lively as the mini but roomier. Sadly all 3 were rot boxes after just 2 winters, the wings disintegrated as did the door bottoms and sills and were all scrapped, when i was older i found them in a scrap yard stipped to the bare shell. Great cars but like all italian steel cars of the time just not made for the UK weather.
In my childhood in family we have a Innocenti I4 a rebadge Austin 1100 of 1968, fantastic car with elegant and iconic Pininfarina design, advanced front wheel drive car and Rolls-Royce like interior, but a car with many rust and too much noise.
I owned a 1979 De Tomaso fitted with the 1275cc unit, a large single SU carb (rather than the Cooper’s twin carbs). This produced 72hp and could hit 100mph. It was a hoot to drive and I still miss it 36 years after I had to let it go as it had rotted away in the UK climate in only 8 years from new ! I drove a De Tomaso Turbo around 5 years ago…also 72hp from the Daihatsu 3 cylinder. A shade more comfortable due to more conventional suspension (rather than the Mini set up) but not as punchy nor as fun to drive. My understanding from a TV interview with Alessandro De Tomaso, it was HE rather than BL that ended the engine supply deal in 1982. Innocenti apparently had to completely rework about 30% of all the engines received from Longbridge due to poor quality control.
Thanks Tom, yet another example of short sighted BL management, the Mini replacement could have been taken seriously and helped BL financially but sadly they insisted on their own way and the rest is history.
I disagree. This car could never replace the mini. It could have been the metro of the 70s though. It still looks far more modern than the metro even though it is six years older 🤯
Thanks Tom for featuring innocenti cars, I have mentioned them in the comments of your recent videos, I'm nearly 54 and in the 70s and 80s my parents took me to Italy a number of times and I was fascinated by innocenti cars.
I was fascinated by it too. Well, I'm Italian 😁. My uncle had a white Innocenti IM3 which he drove very fast and I loved it. The dashboard and steering wheel (Innocenti design) are delightful, as are the hydropneumatic suspensions and the elegant line with the modified front and the thin BL tails.
The Innocenti mini is what the upgraded mini should've been in the 70s. BL was so incredibly stubborn and incompetent that they couldn't accept someone else doing it better.
I always liked Innocenti's 'new' Mini as well as their version of the Mark 2 classic Mini. The latter was always subtly different-looking from the UK version, but it was hard to spot what the precise differences were.
Every time I learn something else about the history of the British motor industry i reach an even deeper level of disbelief of just how badly run and impossible situation it was. And yet they still managed to produce some incredible cars.
The Innocenti Mini should have come to the UK and be built at Longbridge on the new second line put in for the Allegro that was never used because Allegro was so unpopular! What a missed opportunity again, it could have slotted below the Metro when that came out
That's the thing about the Allegro. Some 642000 were built and they were everywhere on the roads during the 70s in Britain at least. My dad had one and it was actually comfortable if ugly. I think there was still a lot of brand loyalty from older customers who would have bought a wooden box on wheels if it had Austin stamped on it. The Italians were light years ahead in styling and Innovation but wow did they rust. Most cars did then but you could sweep a Lancia up with a dustpan after several years. Cheers.
I had one Innocenti DeTomaso, black. I don't recall the year, but was one of the last with the Mini engine, electric windows, etc. At the time I bought the car for my wife. Big mistake. It was by all means a performance car. Meaning excellent to boil your blood with performance! But bad for anything else. Hard, difficult to drive. A "all or nothing" engine that scream above 3500 rpm, but was totally death below that! The clutch was a very heavy on /off switch. Really bad for daily driving, excellent to play around. Not helping that I spiced the engine. LOL 😂 😂 Long story short my wife drove it ONCE. Went, literally, to the end of the street. Return parked and never touched it again. She was scared of it! So, I used it for some years, Until the person who sold me the car, bought it back from me! In all honesty I was happy to get rid of it. I learned my lesson never again I bought a "sports" car. ;-)
I had Thunderbirds SC, Nissan 300ZX. Would settle for nothing less than a two door, stick and min 3L engine and V6. Skidding and sliding is part of the fun.
Thanks Tom. the Innocenti story is fascinating and BLs endless mismanagement is yet more angering! I think the Innocenti 1100 front end is beautiful as is the Spyder. to my eyes the basic versions of the Innocenti Mini look like 9X with a little dressing up. yet another part of automotive history to put in the very fat 'if only' file.
I fell in love with the innocenti mini, the updated new version when I came across them in Italy in that 1970s, I believe they made the British mini too at first but I never been a fan of the original one.
Allegros were no better or worse than many of their competitors. BL bashing was a national sport in the 1970's, especially amongst large sections of the media.
I too liked the Allegro. I sooooooo, wanted to work for BL. The Allegro project drawings were way ahead of their time. The Eqipe, and the estate were visionary. Tom, reminds me of a young me. BL got too broad, too political, and was isolated outside of the EEC, so couldn’t generate the volume. Sad. In the end though, with engines that randomly and spontaneously combusted, they became a bit of an embarrassment.
Thanks, Tom, that was very interesting complementary information. To me one or BL's problems was "not invented here", no foreigners could do better than them. The 950 Spider was very elegant, far better than the Sprite/Midget. The Allegro was dreadful (I'll have some people disagreeing with me) after the purity of design of the 1100. Looking forward to your next one. Greetings from sunny Stockholm.
It's got nothing to do with "not invented here" the original mini was a icon, the innocenti mini was not. I'm sure very few exist now compared to the original mini in Italy. It's everything that the Metro should have been, but possibly a little too small 🤷♀️
I didn’t know about this connection. Innocenti had a great looking Mini replacement, [ as well as that “Sprite “, which is absolutely beautiful.]. Personally, I don’t think any car [ or cars ] could have possibly saved B.L. Between horrible mis-management , too many models, Auto Union strikes, [ and “sabotage “.], and a tampering government, and horrendous build “quality “, I really don’t think ANYTHING could have saved it. Sad. I used to walk by the B.L. Dealership in my neighborhood [ St.Louis, Missouri, U.S.A.]. Some really cool cars, but there were more cars in the shop than there were on the lot. And this, at a time when American cars weren’t so good, either, but…… Great video. 🚗🙂
Great video, lot of stuff I didn't know, but the captions aren't the greatest. I'm glad the narrator speaks so clearly, so I don't have to depend on the captions.
I seen minis with the inocentti badges on them when I went to Greece in the early 90s ,and I wondered what they were? Now I know thanks to you and your interesting videos! Keep em coming!
Nice video. I drove an Innocenti 90L for a few years and it was a fun car. Quality was an issue, as for many cars in that period. If I remember well there was also a 120L. The De Tomaso version was the one to have however but this version was rare.
Yet another example of BMC/BL complacency. First, ignoring the innovations and designs riffs happening with BMC Australia (Blue Streak engine; adding a hatch to the ADO 16; bringing the ADO 17 into the 1970s - Tasman/Kimberley), then dismissing the Austin A40 full hatchback, the sleeker lines of the Italian ADO 16, and finally the Innocenti Mini, a really contemporary design that puts the Allegro/Regent to shame! "The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men gang aft agley"
Great video thanks Tom. Narration excellent. I only knew a small fraction of this. I must say the Innocenti designs were more attractive and fresher than the BMC/BL versions….not that I disliked any of those.
Smart cars the Innocenti versions of Austins. Even the Allegro based Regent managed to have more style than the Austin original. The Innocenti Mini was superb - but I can see why BL were reluctant to adopt it for the UK market - it would have taken too many sales away from the Mini and eventually the Metro. Goes to show what the influence of an Italian stylist can do for a British car, and how ahead of the curve the Italian styling houses were at the time.
Personally, I loved the 1275GT. I had four over the years. My favourite developed Mini was the Wood & Pickett. Looking at the subsequent Metro, I believe that the Innocent Mini would have been popular. I'd always associated the Ghia marquee with Ford
Ghia was an independent design/styling house long before it was fully purchased by Ford in (I think) the late 80s, who then reduced the Ghia name to a tacky badge for cars with fake wood inserts and alloy wheels. sigh...
Ghia is one of the many brands that have made the history of Italian bodywork. Look for example for the "Supergioiello" model series, made on the basis of various frames from different brands. Ghia collaborated a lot with American manufacturers, in Europe well known models designed by Ghia were Renault Floride, VW Karmann Ghia, Volvo P 1800 and... De Tomaso Pantera!
At 10:01 I have a wheel in my studio for a 120 Innocenti. Found it in my dads workshop. I would love a 120. Wish we got that instead of the Metro it looks just so much better.
Excellent as ever, definitely find the height of the cabin area of the innocenti mini somewhat out of proportion to the rest of the vehicle, a good 2 inch roof chop would have suited it better, at first I thought this was just a post millennium vibe that I was feeling, but remember the mk2 consul zephyr zodiacs improved styling once the "lowline" models appeared in the later years of the series, a definite improvement on the "hi line" versions, but this is only my opinion of automotive aesthetics!
Great video Tom. Another sad tale of how BL failed to look gift horses in the mouth. The Regent/Allegro wasn't pretty and like the Frog Eye had into what was very nearly the Mk2 and Midget should have got the makeover to a Maestro. In the UK the industrial turmoil didn't help through the 70s.
the Innocenti minis in classic mini body shell, were always better equipped and were built with more care than their British counterparts, and the engines had more power: the 850ccm Innocenti gave 42 HP and the Innocenti 1001 had a big valve Cooper cylinder head with single carburettor which gave 48 DIN ps, which was almost the same as the 55bhp of the British Mini Cooper. the Innocenti 1000 Mini Cooper with twin carbs had a different camshaft and was quoted with 60 hp The Innocenti Mini Cooper 1300 ( produced between 1972 and 1975) was quoted with 66 Din PS, which nominally was less than the 76 bhp of the 1275 Cooper S, but the cylinder head, camshaft, carburation , intake and exhaust system where all the same as of the mk3 1275 Cooper S. So in reality, they should have the same power output, but just quoted different numbers due to different measuring method ion bhp and DIN HP
This also goes for Honda Legend/Rover 800. Everything that worked trouble free on the Japanese car, was replaced with home grown crap to make the 800 a car of doubtable quality, with British style, leaving the Legend reliable and heading in quality while Rover customers could build a reliable relation to their Rover dealer garages
Daihatsu-engined versions of the Innocenti Mini from the DeTomaso ownership era were briefly sold in Canada. In addition to rebranded Yugos, Brazilian-built FIAT Uno derivatives (a four door saloon and two-door estate) were also marketed as Innocentis.
As it happens I have a 1957 built series 1 Lambretta Li150 which I use as "furniture" as its just too valuable to even sniff the outdoors as someone will nick it... Number 617 built, frame number is a lot of zeroes and 617 and it sparked curiosity with some folks saying its one of the oldest Li's around. Parked next to it is my 1985 Vespa MK1 T5 custom, also too valuable to leave outside and is in my living room after it got badly vandalised :( As for my travelling I have a MK2 Robin 3 wheel van...
The Allegro is one of the worlds most misunderstood cars. As child i remember them as very modern and futuristic. And i still think the cars styling is elegant.
@briansteffmagnussen9078 YOU'RE absolutely right. The car is completely misunderstood. Most of them who judge just repeat the Clarkson nonsense without ever having owned or driven one. I have my second Allegro, the 13th BL/ARG/RG car and it outclasses the competition of the time, except Citroen GS, with ride quality and uniqueness. Its my 2nd Allegro dating from 1975.
@@johnrossewingiii3270 At the same time it was a no nonsens ruggeg mechanic, And no one can blame it for rusting, All cars in the era where prone to rust due to the steel the factories could get at the time.
@@briansteffmagnussen9078 especially Italian and French. I remember somewhere in the eighties it was reported in a German car magazine that Citroen owners formed a group or committee to join and try to get ( force) the French government to make laws to forbid building cars that immediatly start rusting, corroding and break down and disintegrate the moment the cars leve the factory. AND THIS DID NOT CONCEARN AND RELATE TO BL!!!!
This video just shows how much more talented Italian stylists were with the 90/120L and that lovely 950 Spider, which I've never seen before. Even the ADO16 with its Mercedes-esque vertical headlamps and more luxurious interior should have instructed BMC/BL, but useless management and "not invented here" mentality scuppered all that.
The P53/54 was a great Italian redesign of the Mini. It should have been sold by BL in all Continental LHD Markets. It was however sold in a few France, Switzerland and I believe the Benelux in small numbers. Possibly through a local Distributor? It could have been marketed as a premium small car brand using the Innocenti name. This was another case of my Lords and Masters at ''The Kremlin'' Longbridge getting it very wrong again. The key issue was that which you mentioned-everything BL sent to Innocenti was improved and make much better . Mini -better seats, quarter lights- styled wheels ,and a redesigned facia on the Mini Cooper- The same improvements were made for the local ADO 16 too. .A real lost opportunity
In fact, between 1976/77 through to 1982, when the Bertone design was adapted to take the Daihatsu engines, the cars were sold through BL dealers in many continental markets…I bought my Mini De Tomaso from a BL dealer in Germany. I imported it to the UK and was able to get warranty work done by BL dealers in UK (unique parts took a while to arrive though!).
I swear the comments have been hijacked by innocenti mini fans. The original mini was and still is a icon. This boxy small car could only be considered as the early alternative to the Metro! Also bear in mind, the video mostly features the updated innocenti mini of the late seventies and eighties. The mini is timeless.. the innocenti mini not so much 😅
what has not been mentioned in this video: innocenti produced its own version of the Mini Cooper with the 1275ccm engine until 1975, while BL stopped in 1971. The Innocenti Mini Cooper 1300 ,was much better equipped , was built with more quality and more care and had nicer trim than its British counterpart. It also is said that the innocents with the old mini body shell had less problems with corosion than the new betone style innocenti mini. the new bertone styled body shell fiter better into the taste of the 70ies and had a hatchback. but sharing the same engine and other mechanical components it also shared the same problems with reliability and an engine that could not be driven with high revs for a long time. in our days the innocenti minis are highly desired collectors car, while the betone styled de tomato minis only recently got attention , and where canibalized as a donor of engines for classic minis
Issigonis ( per your other video) designed something similar. But the dead hand of BL was death to anything new or imaginative. Even reaching from the grave to destroy Rover.
It's kind of funny that "italian" electrics were blamed for the fail of the Regent and not just the fact that it was a (pardon me) shitty product to begin with. Not to mention it was and still is somewhat funny to hear british people call italian electrics bad...*looks at the same era's Lucas electrics*
Let's face it, both countries had cars with bad electrics. But it's always easier to fix cars from your own country 😅 Cars were so simple back then, even my grandma could fix them, blindfolded! 😂😂😂
Were Minis made under licence in Spain too? I remember seeing mk3s as a youngster on holidays in the '80s that had amongst other details, a plastic grill with a badhe saying 'Mini Box'
yes, Mini where produced in Spain under license by" Authi". they also offered a Mini Cooper 1300, which was very similar to the innocenti mini copper 1300 ( but its engine was not cooperS, but the slightly weaker version used in the MG midget). the trim and the equipment did not match the standard of the innocenti minis, but still was better that that of British Minis
Their worst mistake was to stop making the Lambretta scooter - which could have continued if only producing a couple of hundred a month. ☹️🥴.......a good SX200 is now worth £10,000 !
Today in Italy there are the car brands DR Automobiles and the little EMC and Cirelli that produce rebadge of Chinese medium cars (SUVs) from Chery, Baic and Dongfeng, DR only rebadge these chinese models, in the 60s, 70s and 80s milanese Innocenti build under license Austin BL models apart the little Innocenti MINI 90 / 120 of Marcello Gandini.
I think Fiat did take notice, I see quite a bit of the Uno and other models in this. These were cars for the people, you could fix them yourself, a far cry from the cars of today. I do miss those times, and the history is so frustrating, all those missed opportunities...
Sadly one of the idiotic first moves by BL with Innocenti was to stop production of the Lambretta motor scooters and then sell the tooling of to the Indian company SIL. The Lambretta was Innocenti's "bread and butter" meaning it was what provided the company with a stable bedrock financially and doing away with that was a massive own goal. Agg of Trojan fame tried to buy the whole thing but BL refused and insisted on selling to India, Agg in his south London factory built Lambretta kit scooters, Lambo 3 wheel vans and of course his signature Heinkel Trojan 3 wheel bubble cars and with Lambretta gone much of his own business was hit hard. He moved on into formula one with McLaren leaving his humble small vehicle beginnings behind him, most likely though if you owned a 60s Lambretta here in the UK it would have been personally inspected by Mr Agg who insisted all his vehicles built at his factory he gave the final inspection to.
the innocenti cooper in its 1000cc and 1275cc form is a far more luxurious and stilish car than the english cooper equivalents. the same goes for the innocenti 90 and 120l compared to the metro in alli its guises, perhaps with the exception of the metro turbo.
What did you expect? A title that said “Innocenti The Car Manufacturer Purchased By British Leyland And How it Operated” You are forgetting what platform this is? The title directly reflects the videos content which is rare on here, if you watched it.
@@tomdrives I've had ten V8 sd1 Can't understand why you'd want a 6 cylinder Even if it has Moore power from bolting more carbs or a camshaft etc It hasn't got that sound What do you prefer with the 2.6
Are people actually comparing Italian electrical components to British electrical components? Lucas isn't known as the "PRINCE OF DARKNESS" without a reason!
Innocenti always made a better product then anything BMC ever did ,and another HUGE mistake BMC sold the whole Lambretta part of Innocenti off leaving Piaggio to clear up the market
![ลองสุ่มไอโฟน 990 โกงมั้ย? [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.101 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bfsWe0j492k/mqdefault.jpg)
I think Alec would have appreciated the officialization of this Innocenti model. Maybe the Gandini design was too Italian.
Thanks for the complete documentary.
The only note: after the change of ownership to De Tomaso, it does not mention the experiment of equipping the Italian Mini with 850 cc Guzzi engines, then part of the De Tomaso group.
Last note: the Mini Gandini was developed with very limited funds and initially met with excellent success. While the classic Mini continued to be successful.
Good additional bits of information, thanks for this, I’ll pin this comment for everyone to see.
Hey mate do you have any information or links to the guzzi engine car please. The sound alone would have made for a very special mini
There’s no question in my mind this car with that styling would have been a major success. The Talbot Samba sold…. With BL branding and keeping the design the same - the one case where lazy rebadging would really work… this would have sold like hot cakes! I imagine especially existing mini owners, wanting something more up to date and with that hatchback.
Why, and how, did BL manage to clutch defeat from the jaws of success so many times?!! Corporate suicide 101.
@@johngibson3837 Hi
I remember several articles and technical drawings in sector magazines such as Quattroruote and Gente Motori from the times, which followed the story. I found Quattroruote July 1984.
Strangely, I can't find anything on the internet, whereas at the time there was quite a lot of talk about it..
Extensive testing was conducted to make the air-cooled 2-cylinder engine automotive; the car already had a name, MiniDue, De Tomaso moved the presentation several times and then decided to purchase the Daihatsu 650 engines.
The De Tomaso group had many brands (Innocenti, Maserati, De Tomaso, Moto Guzzi, Benelli) and little capital.
Incredible how with little finances he managed to carry forward and develop so many projects, mentioning the major ones: Maserati Quattroporte, Biturbo, Innocenti MiniTre, De Tomaso Pantera, Benelli Sei (cylinders), Guzzi 254.
@@studiocalder818 aye it's not here but I'm interested to know mate
Innocenti had done all the work to make a modern mini. BL should have used it and said a very big thank you to them.
Instead it had a tantrum and threw it's toys out of the pram.
I agree, it should’ve been used. BL though at the time were in free fall
I could never understand back in the 70s why the Innocenti wasn't on sale evrywhere. It was a brilliant little car.
In Italy it had great success at the beginning, which continued in some particular regions, where the towns have narrow streets and few parking spaces, such as in Liguria (which is now in fact full of Pandas and 600s).
Same in Italy, the Mini Innocenti held a sort of record in the percentage of owners who replaced it with a new one.
What a great video. What a shame Leyland were so short sighted. They had so many opportunities. I live in Australia and BMC/Leyland had a huge manufacturing facility here. They did great things and built great cars, but were always controlled by British management. It’s like the British hated someone else doing something better than they could. Obviously Italy could do things better as Australia did with the Mini Deluxe with wind up windows. Innocent made a smart looking Mini update. BL couldn’t compete, so they tried to destroy it. So many lost opportunities. It’s sad Leyland crashed, but the management deserved it. Such a shame.
How right you are.
IMO the Morris Nomad was a far better development of the 11/1300 than the British made estate versions.
If only British Leyland handed Leyland Australia the rights and patterns etc to build the Rover SD1 here in Australia instead of the P76. We could have shown BL how to build the SD1 properly. It would have been a massive success and change car design in Australia forward 30 years
It's unfair to claim Australia was first to introduce wind up to the mini. They had been available as after market kits, plus it was only one year later (1966) when BMC introduced doors with concealed hinges with one piece windows on the MK3 Riley Elf and Wolseley Hornet.
Obviously, Australia needed fully opening windows to survive in the warmer climate 🥵 but you was stuck with those dated external hinges and quarterlights windows until production ended 😱
I knew of 3 Innocenti Minis bought brand new in the mid 70's and was fascinated by them. One was owned by a family friend who would meet with the other two regularly.
Lovely cars, as lively as the mini but roomier.
Sadly all 3 were rot boxes after just 2 winters, the wings disintegrated as did the door bottoms and sills and were all scrapped, when i was older i found them in a scrap yard stipped to the bare shell.
Great cars but like all italian steel cars of the time just not made for the UK weather.
Soviet steel used
In my childhood in family we have a Innocenti I4 a rebadge Austin 1100 of 1968, fantastic car with elegant and iconic Pininfarina design, advanced front wheel drive car and Rolls-Royce like interior, but a car with many rust and too much noise.
I owned a 1979 De Tomaso fitted with the 1275cc unit, a large single SU carb (rather than the Cooper’s twin carbs). This produced 72hp and could hit 100mph. It was a hoot to drive and I still miss it 36 years after I had to let it go as it had rotted away in the UK climate in only 8 years from new ! I drove a De Tomaso Turbo around 5 years ago…also 72hp from the Daihatsu 3 cylinder. A shade more comfortable due to more conventional suspension (rather than the Mini set up) but not as punchy nor as fun to drive. My understanding from a TV interview with Alessandro De Tomaso, it was HE rather than BL that ended the engine supply deal in 1982. Innocenti apparently had to completely rework about 30% of all the engines received from Longbridge due to poor quality control.
As usual, BL snatched defeat from the jaws of victory
Another great video. I never understood why BL didn't adopt the Innocenti in the UK at least as an extra model. Now I know. A shameful end too.
I think they should have, even if it was a companion model. But still doesn’t distract from the fact they should’ve got the metro to market earlier.
I prefer this looks wise to the Metro. I even had one as a Matchbox car growing up; it was amber coloured and had an opening boot.
Thanks Tom, yet another example of short sighted BL management, the Mini replacement could have been taken seriously and helped BL financially but sadly they insisted on their own way and the rest is history.
I disagree. This car could never replace the mini. It could have been the metro of the 70s though.
It still looks far more modern than the metro even though it is six years older 🤯
Thanks Tom for featuring innocenti cars, I have mentioned them in the comments of your recent videos, I'm nearly 54 and in the 70s and 80s my parents took me to Italy a number of times and I was fascinated by innocenti cars.
Thanks Adam! Sounds like great memories. You’ve passed the fascination on!
I was fascinated by it too.
Well, I'm Italian 😁.
My uncle had a white Innocenti IM3 which he drove very fast and I loved it.
The dashboard and steering wheel (Innocenti design) are delightful, as are the hydropneumatic suspensions and the elegant line with the modified front and the thin BL tails.
The Innocenti mini is what the upgraded mini should've been in the 70s. BL was so incredibly stubborn and incompetent that they couldn't accept someone else doing it better.
Mini fans around the world are horrified 😱 it's basically a squashed up fiat panda 😅
It definitely could have been the better alternative to the metro
I always liked Innocenti's 'new' Mini as well as their version of the Mark 2 classic Mini.
The latter was always subtly different-looking from the UK version, but it was hard to spot what the precise differences were.
The front grille and dash were the obvious differences
Thank you for having a look at BL's European adventures, maybe next time you could have a look at the Spanish partnership with AUTHI
AUTHI AUTOMOVILES HISPANO INGLESES at first 💯 Spanish capital controlled company later on British Leyland entered capital and renamed Leyland Authi
Every time I learn something else about the history of the British motor industry i reach an even deeper level of disbelief of just how badly run and impossible situation it was. And yet they still managed to produce some incredible cars.
The Innocenti Mini should have come to the UK and be built at Longbridge on the new second line put in for the Allegro that was never used because Allegro was so unpopular! What a missed opportunity again, it could have slotted below the Metro when that came out
That's the thing about the Allegro. Some 642000 were built and they were everywhere on the roads during the 70s in Britain at least. My dad had one and it was actually comfortable if ugly. I think there was still a lot of brand loyalty from older customers who would have bought a wooden box on wheels if it had Austin stamped on it. The Italians were light years ahead in styling and Innovation but wow did they rust. Most cars did then but you could sweep a Lancia up with a dustpan after several years. Cheers.
Forget the Metro, this car should have been the metro in 1974!
The Metro looks dated in comparison, yet it came to market 6 years later 😅
I had one Innocenti DeTomaso, black. I don't recall the year, but was one of the last with the Mini engine, electric windows, etc. At the time I bought the car for my wife. Big mistake. It was by all means a performance car. Meaning excellent to boil your blood with performance! But bad for anything else. Hard, difficult to drive. A "all or nothing" engine that scream above 3500 rpm, but was totally death below that! The clutch was a very heavy on /off switch. Really bad for daily driving, excellent to play around. Not helping that I spiced the engine. LOL 😂 😂
Long story short my wife drove it ONCE. Went, literally, to the end of the street. Return parked and never touched it again. She was scared of it! So, I used it for some years, Until the person who sold me the car, bought it back from me! In all honesty I was happy to get rid of it. I learned my lesson never again I bought a "sports" car. ;-)
I had Thunderbirds SC, Nissan 300ZX. Would settle for nothing less than a two door, stick and min 3L engine and V6. Skidding and sliding is part of the fun.
Thanks Tom. the Innocenti story is fascinating and BLs endless mismanagement is yet more angering! I think the Innocenti 1100 front end is beautiful as is the Spyder. to my eyes the basic versions of the Innocenti Mini look like 9X with a little dressing up.
yet another part of automotive history to put in the very fat 'if only' file.
I fell in love with the innocenti mini, the updated new version when I came across them in Italy in that 1970s, I believe they made the British mini too at first but I never been a fan of the original one.
I had no idea the company lasted so long. shame about the restyled mini, I think it was a good looking car. BL were fools.
Instead of the Regent they should've built a gen 2 Mini Traveller putting the Innocenti/Bertone body on the longer wheelbase with 5 doors.
Another excellent and informative video, thanks again.
The Allegro gets such a bad press. Looks very similar to the Alfasud. I like what Innocenti did with it. Now that could have worked in the UK.
I like the Allegro
Allegros were no better or worse than many of their competitors.
BL bashing was a national sport in the 1970's, especially amongst large sections of the media.
I too liked the Allegro. I sooooooo, wanted to work for BL. The Allegro project drawings were way ahead of their time. The Eqipe, and the estate were visionary. Tom, reminds me of a young me. BL got too broad, too political, and was isolated outside of the EEC, so couldn’t generate the volume. Sad. In the end though, with engines that randomly and spontaneously combusted, they became a bit of an embarrassment.
Wow 😮 this could have been a match made in heaven, BL management was atrocious, and lost opportunity after opportunity.
Looks great the turbo version could of been great seller in the UK . Looks modern compared to that disaster looking metro
Thanks, Tom, that was very interesting complementary information. To me one or BL's problems was "not invented here", no foreigners could do better than them.
The 950 Spider was very elegant, far better than the Sprite/Midget.
The Allegro was dreadful (I'll have some people disagreeing with me) after the purity of design of the 1100.
Looking forward to your next one. Greetings from sunny Stockholm.
It's got nothing to do with "not invented here" the original mini was a icon, the innocenti mini was not. I'm sure very few exist now compared to the original mini in Italy.
It's everything that the Metro should have been, but possibly a little too small 🤷♀️
I didn’t know about this connection.
Innocenti had a great looking Mini replacement, [ as well as that “Sprite “, which is absolutely beautiful.].
Personally, I don’t think any car [ or cars ] could have possibly saved B.L. Between horrible mis-management , too many models, Auto Union strikes, [ and “sabotage “.], and a tampering government, and horrendous build “quality “, I really don’t think ANYTHING could have saved it.
Sad. I used to walk by the B.L. Dealership in my neighborhood [ St.Louis, Missouri, U.S.A.]. Some really cool cars, but there were more cars in the shop than there were on the lot. And this, at a time when American cars weren’t so good, either, but……
Great video.
🚗🙂
Great video, lot of stuff I didn't know, but the captions aren't the greatest. I'm glad the narrator speaks so clearly, so I don't have to depend on the captions.
The Lambretta scooter connection ?......there’s real automotive history ! 😁👍🏼
I want a green Black Spot!
Piaggio vespa lad myself.but allways loved the lambo
I'm impressed my brother what a great video please keep on doing this your great
Thanks Ralph, really appreciate it :)
I seen minis with the inocentti badges on them when I went to Greece in the early 90s ,and I wondered what they were? Now I know thanks to you and your interesting videos! Keep em coming!
The Innocenti Mini was a great little car and another huge missed opportunity for BL
It's interesting that there was cross border manufacturing and supply chains apparently, without British EEC membership, back then.
I know the car well another great video Tom
One of these, with the maxi 5 speed gearbox (with reliable linkages) and the 9X overhead cam engines would have been interesting.
Nice video. I drove an Innocenti 90L for a few years and it was a fun car. Quality was an issue, as for many cars in that period. If I remember well there was also a 120L. The De Tomaso version was the one to have however but this version was rare.
I loved the Innocenti Mini
Same here, especially the later ones
Yet another example of BMC/BL complacency. First, ignoring the innovations and designs riffs happening with BMC Australia (Blue Streak engine; adding a hatch to the ADO 16; bringing the ADO 17 into the 1970s - Tasman/Kimberley), then dismissing the Austin A40 full hatchback, the sleeker lines of the Italian ADO 16, and finally the Innocenti Mini, a really contemporary design that puts the Allegro/Regent to shame! "The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men gang aft agley"
Thank you Tom
Yet again a missed opportunity
Great video thanks Tom. Narration excellent. I only knew a small fraction of this. I must say the Innocenti designs were more attractive and fresher than the BMC/BL versions….not that I disliked any of those.
Smart cars the Innocenti versions of Austins. Even the Allegro based Regent managed to have more style than the Austin original. The Innocenti Mini was superb - but I can see why BL were reluctant to adopt it for the UK market - it would have taken too many sales away from the Mini and eventually the Metro. Goes to show what the influence of an Italian stylist can do for a British car, and how ahead of the curve the Italian styling houses were at the time.
I always loved the British Leyland cars. I owned a Leyland Mini Special.
Another wonderful interesting video thanks greetings from Scotland 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
Thanks Ian! Appreciate it
Ian definitely not supporting Scottish Independence. 🤨
great video again ,BL were good at mucking things up
Glad you enjoyed it!
Personally, I loved the 1275GT. I had four over the years. My favourite developed Mini was the Wood & Pickett. Looking at the subsequent Metro, I believe that the Innocent Mini would have been popular.
I'd always associated the Ghia marquee with Ford
Ghia was an independent design/styling house long before it was fully purchased by Ford in (I think) the late 80s, who then reduced the Ghia name to a tacky badge for cars with fake wood inserts and alloy wheels. sigh...
Ghia is one of the many brands that have made the history of Italian bodywork.
Look for example for the "Supergioiello" model series, made on the basis of various frames from different brands.
Ghia collaborated a lot with American manufacturers, in Europe well known models designed by Ghia were Renault Floride, VW Karmann Ghia, Volvo P 1800 and... De Tomaso Pantera!
The Allegro was a good looking car. Pity it finished up as the ‘Aggro.’ The Innocenti ‘Mini’ looked super sharp in the day.
At 10:01 I have a wheel in my studio for a 120 Innocenti. Found it in my dads workshop. I would love a 120.
Wish we got that instead of the Metro it looks just so much better.
Excellent as ever, definitely find the height of the cabin area of the innocenti mini somewhat out of proportion to the rest of the vehicle, a good 2 inch roof chop would have suited it better, at first I thought this was just a post millennium vibe that I was feeling, but remember the mk2 consul zephyr zodiacs improved styling once the "lowline" models appeared in the later years of the series, a definite improvement on the "hi line" versions, but this is only my opinion of automotive aesthetics!
Another Great video. Love the black Shirt
I knew the innocenti story, i had some relatives that drove some.
Thanks! Appreciate it
There where also Spanish Authi Leyland products 🇪🇸
Loving this video, great channel.
Thanks! Appreciate it :)
Great video Tom. Another sad tale of how BL failed to look gift horses in the mouth. The Regent/Allegro wasn't pretty and like the Frog Eye had into what was very nearly the Mk2 and Midget should have got the makeover to a Maestro. In the UK the industrial turmoil didn't help through the 70s.
Great video tom
Thanks Adrian, glad you enjoyed
I thoroughly enjoyed this video. Thanks Tom.
Thanks Stuart, glad you did.
the Innocenti minis in classic mini body shell, were always better equipped and were built with more care than their British counterparts, and the engines had more power: the 850ccm Innocenti gave 42 HP and the Innocenti 1001 had a big valve Cooper cylinder head with single carburettor which gave 48 DIN ps, which was almost the same as the 55bhp of the British Mini Cooper. the Innocenti 1000 Mini Cooper with twin carbs had a different camshaft and was quoted with 60 hp
The Innocenti Mini Cooper 1300 ( produced between 1972 and 1975) was quoted with 66 Din PS, which nominally was less than the 76 bhp of the 1275 Cooper S, but the cylinder head, camshaft, carburation , intake and exhaust system where all the same as of the mk3 1275 Cooper S.
So in reality, they should have the same power output, but just quoted different numbers due to different measuring method ion bhp and DIN HP
Trust Britan to destroy a great product by not wanting to be out done.
This also goes for Honda Legend/Rover 800. Everything that worked trouble free on the Japanese car, was replaced with home grown crap to make the 800 a car of doubtable quality, with British style, leaving the Legend reliable and heading in quality while Rover customers could build a reliable relation to their Rover dealer garages
Daihatsu-engined versions of the Innocenti Mini from the DeTomaso ownership era were briefly sold in Canada.
In addition to rebranded Yugos, Brazilian-built FIAT Uno derivatives (a four door saloon and two-door estate) were also marketed as Innocentis.
As it happens I have a 1957 built series 1 Lambretta Li150 which I use as "furniture" as its just too valuable to even sniff the outdoors as someone will nick it... Number 617 built, frame number is a lot of zeroes and 617 and it sparked curiosity with some folks saying its one of the oldest Li's around. Parked next to it is my 1985 Vespa MK1 T5 custom, also too valuable to leave outside and is in my living room after it got badly vandalised :( As for my travelling I have a MK2 Robin 3 wheel van...
No no no .they is meant to be ridden..not hidden..bloody kept indoors? Jesus
always interesting ... I loved the Austin 1800 but, were the Allegro AND Maxi both based on the 1800?
Thanks and no they were both there own platform I believe.
@@tomdrivesMaxi used the 18-22 series’ doors, Allegro was an all new platform
The Allegro is one of the worlds most misunderstood cars. As child i remember them as very modern and futuristic. And i still think the cars styling is elegant.
@briansteffmagnussen9078 YOU'RE absolutely right. The car is completely misunderstood. Most of them who judge just repeat the Clarkson nonsense without ever having owned or driven one. I have my second Allegro, the 13th BL/ARG/RG car and it outclasses the competition of the time, except Citroen GS, with ride quality and uniqueness. Its my 2nd Allegro dating from 1975.
@@johnrossewingiii3270 At the same time it was a no nonsens ruggeg mechanic, And no one can blame it for rusting, All cars in the era where prone to rust due to the steel the factories could get at the time.
@@briansteffmagnussen9078 especially Italian and French. I remember somewhere in the eighties it was reported in a German car magazine that Citroen owners formed a group or committee to join and try to get ( force) the French government to make laws to forbid building cars that immediatly start rusting, corroding and break down and disintegrate the moment the cars leve the factory. AND THIS DID NOT CONCEARN AND RELATE TO BL!!!!
A two door Allegro with a good set of alloys and lowered by at least 6cm 🤤👌
Just maybe! 😂
This video just shows how much more talented Italian stylists were with the 90/120L and that lovely 950 Spider, which I've never seen before. Even the ADO16 with its Mercedes-esque vertical headlamps and more luxurious interior should have instructed BMC/BL, but useless management and "not invented here" mentality scuppered all that.
The P53/54 was a great Italian redesign of the Mini. It should have been sold by BL in all Continental LHD Markets. It was however sold in a few France, Switzerland and I believe the Benelux in small numbers. Possibly through a local Distributor? It could have been marketed as a premium small car brand using the Innocenti name. This was another case of my Lords and Masters at ''The Kremlin'' Longbridge getting it very wrong again. The key issue was that which you mentioned-everything BL sent to Innocenti was improved and make much better . Mini -better seats, quarter lights- styled wheels ,and a redesigned facia on the Mini Cooper- The same improvements were made for the local ADO 16 too. .A real lost opportunity
In fact, between 1976/77 through to 1982, when the Bertone design was adapted to take the Daihatsu engines, the cars were sold through BL dealers in many continental markets…I bought my Mini De Tomaso from a BL dealer in Germany. I imported it to the UK and was able to get warranty work done by BL dealers in UK (unique parts took a while to arrive though!).
The lack of a mirror on the passinger side door is enough to cause me to walk away from the sale.
Great video!
Another page in the saga of British management. What would we do without it? A great deal more.
I didn’t know Innocenti sold Yugo models. I only remember some Fiat models from Brasil
I swear the comments have been hijacked by innocenti mini fans. The original mini was and still is a icon. This boxy small car could only be considered as the early alternative to the Metro!
Also bear in mind, the video mostly features the updated innocenti mini of the late seventies and eighties.
The mini is timeless.. the innocenti mini not so much 😅
We're just Innocenti men!
;)
I suspected as much 😉 true mini fans are horrified at the suggestion this car could ever replace the timeless mini. Not even the mini clubman!
what has not been mentioned in this video: innocenti produced its own version of the Mini Cooper with the 1275ccm engine until 1975, while BL stopped in 1971. The Innocenti Mini Cooper 1300 ,was much better equipped , was built with more quality and more care and had nicer trim than its British counterpart.
It also is said that the innocents with the old mini body shell had less problems with corosion than the new betone style innocenti mini.
the new bertone styled body shell fiter better into the taste of the 70ies and had a hatchback. but sharing the same engine and other mechanical components it also shared the same problems with reliability and an engine that could not be driven with high revs for a long time.
in our days the innocenti minis are highly desired collectors car, while the betone styled de tomato minis only recently got attention , and where canibalized as a donor of engines for classic minis
Issigonis ( per your other video) designed something similar. But the dead hand of BL was death to anything new or imaginative. Even reaching from the grave to destroy Rover.
That monstrosity (9X/X9) didn't stand a chance. It had no redeeming features at all apart from having the hatchback 😅
In the early ‘80s we called the Allegro the ‘Aggro’
Now everyone calls it the aggro 😂
There was a rebadged car by Innoccient (ie the former Fiat uno) called "Innocienti Mille" (ie Innocient 1000)
Brilliant vid.........
It's kind of funny that "italian" electrics were blamed for the fail of the Regent and not just the fact that it was a (pardon me) shitty product to begin with. Not to mention it was and still is somewhat funny to hear british people call italian electrics bad...*looks at the same era's Lucas electrics*
Joseph Lucas: The Prince of Darkness.
What goes “Bang bang bang”?
A Lucas 8 cylinder distributor
😀
Let's face it, both countries had cars with bad electrics. But it's always easier to fix cars from your own country 😅
Cars were so simple back then, even my grandma could fix them, blindfolded! 😂😂😂
Allegro: Great car for it’s time. Ever owned one or ridden in one? Nice ride.
I don’t think they’re bad cars at all, I’d love to own or drive one.
I used to see Rebadged Fiat Uno as Innoccienti and sold at same time as the Punto..
Were Minis made under licence in Spain too? I remember seeing mk3s as a youngster on holidays in the '80s that had amongst other details, a plastic grill with a badhe saying 'Mini Box'
yes, Mini where produced in Spain under license by" Authi". they also offered a Mini Cooper 1300, which was very similar to the innocenti mini copper 1300 ( but its engine was not cooperS, but the slightly weaker version used in the MG midget). the trim and the equipment did not match the standard of the innocenti minis, but still was better that that of British Minis
Their worst mistake was to stop making the Lambretta scooter - which could have continued if only producing a couple of hundred a month. ☹️🥴.......a good SX200 is now worth £10,000 !
What could have been... The true slogan of BL.
It’s a running theme
Have a look at the Leyland Victoria ...
Today in Italy there are the car brands DR Automobiles and the little EMC and Cirelli that produce rebadge of Chinese medium cars (SUVs) from Chery, Baic and Dongfeng, DR only rebadge these chinese models, in the 60s, 70s and 80s milanese Innocenti build under license Austin BL models apart the little Innocenti MINI 90 / 120 of Marcello Gandini.
I think Fiat did take notice, I see quite a bit of the Uno and other models in this. These were cars for the people, you could fix them yourself, a far cry from the cars of today. I do miss those times, and the history is so frustrating, all those missed opportunities...
Sadly one of the idiotic first moves by BL with Innocenti was to stop production of the Lambretta motor scooters and then sell the tooling of to the Indian company SIL. The Lambretta was Innocenti's "bread and butter" meaning it was what provided the company with a stable bedrock financially and doing away with that was a massive own goal. Agg of Trojan fame tried to buy the whole thing but BL refused and insisted on selling to India, Agg in his south London factory built Lambretta kit scooters, Lambo 3 wheel vans and of course his signature Heinkel Trojan 3 wheel bubble cars and with Lambretta gone much of his own business was hit hard. He moved on into formula one with McLaren leaving his humble small vehicle beginnings behind him, most likely though if you owned a 60s Lambretta here in the UK it would have been personally inspected by Mr Agg who insisted all his vehicles built at his factory he gave the final inspection to.
New camera, Tom?
Finally set it all up, it’s an “oldie” by TH-cam standards but I love it.
Thank you sir brilliant !
Thanks Darren
Reverse Midas touch - everything BMC/BL touched turned to shit
Shit makes good fertilizer. BL cars don't! 🤣🤣🤣
the innocenti cooper in its 1000cc and 1275cc form is a far more luxurious and stilish car than the english cooper equivalents. the same goes for the innocenti 90 and 120l compared to the metro in alli its guises, perhaps with the exception of the metro turbo.
"British Leyland's Italian NIGHTMARE?" as a title is up there with the Daily Mail's 1950s headline "Fog in Channel - Europe cut off from Britain".
What did you expect? A title that said “Innocenti The Car Manufacturer Purchased By British Leyland And How it Operated”
You are forgetting what platform this is? The title directly reflects the videos content which is rare on here, if you watched it.
@@tomdrives perhaps 'Innocenti's British Leyland Nightmare'?
Innocenti was Lambretta, until some bad business decisions resulted in the sale of tooling to Scooters India Limited.
Correct
I spotted a very sorry looking Innocenti in the yard of a local Jag dealer about a fortnight ago.
what could have been Tom,if only
Yes 100 percent
I had two leggies ..never let me down ..fun if odd cars
Why have you got a 2600 rover and not a V8
Because. That’s the one I bought because I wanted that one, if I wanted a V8 I would’ve bought one.
@@tomdrives I've had ten V8 sd1
Can't understand why you'd want a 6 cylinder
Even if it has Moore power from bolting more carbs or a camshaft etc
It hasn't got that sound
What do you prefer with the 2.6
Are people actually comparing Italian electrical components to British electrical components?
Lucas isn't known as the "PRINCE OF DARKNESS" without a reason!
I mean, both are pretty questionable
It's just wires and a few components at the end of the day. Easily fixable by todays standards 😉
Innocenti always made a better product then anything BMC ever did ,and another HUGE mistake BMC sold the whole Lambretta part of Innocenti off leaving Piaggio to clear up the market
I had an Allegro worst car I ever had and to make matters worse it was brown with a brown interior 😂😂
The European ’Kei’ car market.
These tiny little cars look more like toys instead of cars. Lol They even resemble golf carts!
Apart from the Mini ! Did Leyland bmc make anything else worthwhile??? I'm afraid not😢😢😢 !!!