Getting My A$$ Kicked By an 86 Mustang (Part 1)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.ย. 2024
- If you own and older Ford EEC-IV system, which spans from around 1984 -1995 with a TFI distributor ignition system, you will definitely want to follow this saga. Even if you do not own a car with this system, the procedures used and explained throughout this case study can be applied to ALL ignition systems where coil control is being lost.
Here are links to another great case study/class, on an EEC-IV system with a faulty distributor pick-up. This is the video I pulled the images from and used in this mustang video.
This is a good comparison video for what we are dealing with on the Mustang. These two videos are hosted on SD Premium on my website. Sign up for the 14 day free trail and watch these two videos! If you cancel your subscription anytime before the 14 days are up, you will not be charged the $11 for the next month AND you will get the remainder of the 14 days to check everything else out. There are close you 500 videos now including hundreds of lectures recorded from my classes at RTC
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2:35 - history and symptoms
4:17 - coil primary current waveform "coil control"
6:21 - description and operation and testing of the PIP signal (distributor pick-up)
13:21 - PIP signal with SPOUT unplugged
14:36 - the proper way to connect multiple grounds to your Snap-on scope
14:50 - battery voltage tests for a bad alternator diode
15:30 - a lesson on when to use AC coupling on a lab scope
20:42 - discussion of the PIP "clipping" and concern of a bad pick-up
23:35 - questioning the ignition coil and wiring between coil and module and testing the circuit to confirm
27:23 - chapter 3 playlist on premium www.scannerdan...
29:15 - module pin inspection
30:15 - power and ground checks for the ignition module
34:40 - looking at PIP signal again, focused on the clipping, pretty sure at this point the pick-up is bad
39:25 - after walking away and looking at another car, we come back with some new thoughts
40:00 - PIP signal with SPOUT and Alternator unplugged and plugged in comparisons
46:00 - I am no longer sure of the pick-up
48:56 - discussion with Danner on where we are (module or pickup?)
53:51 - after discussion with my brother, we decide to check the pick-up signal directly
54:45 - last EEC IV video we did where the ICM did NOT need a ground • Ford EEC-IV No Spark D...
59:00 - the feed to the pick-up I mentioned doesn't look good. It is fine, the coil current ramps are causing a voltage drop because it is a shared circuit.
1:01:22 - why it wouldn't start with my jumper wire not grounded properly
1:04:07 - why I love working with my son Caleb!
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For more information on this topic, I have written a “field manual” called Engine Performance Diagnostics which is available at www.scannerdanner.com as an eBook or paper book.
Want even more diagnostic training? Whether you are a DIY trying to fix your own car, someone looking to become an auto technician, or a current auto technician that wants to get more into diagnostics, subscribe to ScannerDanner Premium www.scannerdan... There is a 14 day free trial.
On ScannerDanner Premium I will bring you right into my classroom at Rosedale Technical College. You will find page for page lectures taken right from my book as well as exclusive classroom type case studies. What is so special about these classroom case studies? I pull live problem vehicles directly into my classroom and we troubleshoot them in real time, using and applying the theory and testing procedures we learn during the classroom lectures. There is no better on-line training of how to troubleshoot automotive electrical and electronics systems anywhere!
Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. ScannerDanner LLC assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video.
I have a video on a 1986 Ranger where I went down a very similar rabbit hole! What I found is that quick changes in the engine RPM will cause the TFI module to drop coil control. It was a very similar waveform. The pickup signal would never drop out, but the coil side would. The TFI just can't "keep up" with the rapid change in engine RPM. In my case, the truck had a bad coolant temp sensor causing the engine to run super rich making it stumble and run rough. The RPM drops were causing the coil to drop out, not the other way around. Was a real head scratcher.
how'd you figure that one out?
Here the link if TH-cam will allow it: th-cam.com/video/GTN6FpsIdDU/w-d-xo.html
@@WatchWesWork well that waveform looks awfully familiar .....Same exactly...its a mirror imagine.. interesting idea with the drill. I dont think I even have an adapter for obd1.. Good find though man,, I wonder was Danner getting any codes?
im super impressed
Lol just watched your video and i bet its the same problem. Nice job!
I like that you are humble enough to show the troubles you're having as well as the successes. This way we can follow the entire thought process that went into the diagnostic, making the teaching and learning that much better.
Thank you
This is hands down THE BEST EEC-IV video on the internet!!!
Thank you for taking the time to post it 😀
Tell your friends 😄
@@ScannerDanner Will do 😀
BTW hopefully you won’t have to mess with these motherlovin EEC-IV anymore, but I recently bought a motorcraft TFI module from a ford dealer in Vegas with a one year guarantee, so luckily for me they are still available from ford but it’s a real stupid design! Can’t wait to see part 2
Love all your EEC-IV videos 😀
@@Phantomas2011 Yeah, next time mine fails I might just grab an MSD setup and call it a day.
I’ve wanted to see this test for years. Unbolting the module, and using jumpers. I know this seems to old to be important to you. But for us old timers, that have faced these issues, this is Golden. Thank You.
Absolutely Paul, great stuff , don't think this video is not worth a million to us 5.0 enthusiasts !!!
Caleb , you are such a genius Editoir - That red X made me fall off the Chair Backwards laughing :-) Great Video so far - Thrilled to see the Fix - can understand the frustration of Paul.
The crickets and pencil sound effects were a pro touch, as well.
Shout out to Danner and that Manly beard tho !!
Big bro - Lil Bro gotta love this channel all day long !!
After a while it becomes more than just fixing the whip !!
Caleb ( sorry if I didn't spell it correctly) but the dope ass editing !! Dude is amazing and the vocals on that guy make you wonder 🤔
Paul .. pfft that Pintle Hump is amazing and what he does and offers !!
And yeah what a better channel to follow and subscribe to ??
The whole experience is literally here !!
He is literally teaching you to make money 💰
And most importantly not to be just a "Parts Changer"
What an awesome comment! Thank you so much
@@calebldanner: Turning your dad's face green 😆. Came for knowledge, but got ENTERTAINED ("edutainment").
Just fixed a 12 jeep liberty and it went from shop to shop to shop. Never got fixed until i came to me and when i did i used everything i learned from your teachings to diagnose it. Never changed a part without a proper diagnosis. it was a crank sensor that was intermittent. Thank you so much for everything🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
my man! nice job, seriously, props to you for making it happen, I just provide a means and most don't take advantage or they don't know how to apply it
@@ScannerDanner I've sent links of your videos to shop owners and don't get much of a reaction. I guess following a flow chart is good enough....
Proving powers and grounds and 5 volt reference are trouble shooting methods I've learned from you.
@@ScannerDanner 🙏🏻
I can feel your frustration on this one. You're a professional and professionals don't like being stumped.
Having watched an hour of this, it didn't feel like an hour at all. I was so into all the variables and your thought process and caleb movie making skills! It is so amazing!! I enjoyed every bit of it! Getting your frustration level up and talking and discussing with Danner, that's totally real. 1000/1000 on you, and Caleb on making this video happen! Looking forward to part 2!!
What great feedback! Thank you so much. Second person that has said something similar and it just proves my own thoughts on what Caleb is doing and has done with my channel. I'm super proud of him. Time to give him a raise.
@@ScannerDanner I second that! You have awesome family too! I am really impressed by how you and Caleb think alike when it comes to editing this video!
@@AP9311 thank you, I am blessed indeed
@@ScannerDanner Yep, I THIRD that! Excellent stuff - I should've mentioned this in my last rambling comment, LOLOL!
Watching you and your bro make me proud to be a tech. You guys are true role models. Society pays way to much attention to celebrities with nothing to offer us "regular" folk. I am far more impressed at someone like you who has mastered a useful skill and shares it in a humble manner. I have learned so much from you over the years . TY SD
I'm pretty sure you can't make a video to long. You and your brother are very entertaining and wise. Can't wait for season 2. Love you guys.
Thank you Bill!
I'm glad I'm not the only one that gets beat up by these old EEC-IV systems. My buddy takes this stuff into his shop and I'm his first call when they go sideways. If nothing else they're good scope practice.
It is an absolute pleasure watching you brainstorm and diagnose. Thank you for what you do for your community.
Just wanted to say, love this, totally worth it, couldn't click fast enough. Coming from someone that is just an enthusiast/DIY, had multiple EEC-IV vehicles, and appreciate learning how these actually worked. Might also drop a Fox Body 5.0 into my classic Mustang, and then all this knowledge becomes invaluable. Thanks for what you do.
Heck yeah, thank you! Glad to help out for the EEC-IV guys.
And to others watching, this information transfers! Losing coil control is handled no differently on today's COP systems!
I loved it when Caleb exed out the Don’t. We r having fun. I sat thru the hour. Two of the best Techs, and one really witty editor. Playing with dads words. Gotta c the gotcha!!
You'll go through five aftermarket TFI modules before you find one that works correctly. Looking forward to the video of it running correctly.
I've found Standard brand to be the better of the bunch. My 1st choice would be WVE, if they make one. I haven't checked since mine has been still working since '07 when you could still buy them at Ford dealers.
Thanks a ton for keeping the guys mic'd up- the audio quality surpasses so many channels because each feed is so crisp. And it's a lot of work syncing these feeds and also fading scanner info in the background. But it's the only channel with seemless content. Keep up the great work.👍
This is a compliment to my son and makes my heart smile inside. Thank you!
Thank you for the positive feedback! I really appreciate it
@@calebldanner Sure beats hearing your dad screaming on the older videos lol Seriously though, you're definitely an asset and compliment to the name and work of the ScannerDannner organization. in my book your honoring your father, which to a believer is among the highest goals in life Atta boy Caleb!
Great video quality !!!
I feel your pain Paul. You get to a point where your choices are aftermarket junk A,B or C. Thanks for taking us along for real reality TV. Looking forward to the next chapter.
glad you enjoyed it! Did it feel like an hour?
@@ScannerDanner No way, the time flew by. Love that you show the struggles, not just : here's the problem.....fade to black... all fixed. Like the stuff on TV. Great stuff and great edits from Caleb.
Always hard too because you know if it was your car you be putting some more expensive aftermarket performance parts because you know there made better but it’s hard sell performance part to customer with stock engine and everything
As a Foxbody owner/modifier/repairer for the past 20+ years i'm excited to watch this one. I really enjoyed your previous EEC-IV video on the F150, but this being an actual 5.0 Foxbody I can't wait to see what happens. :popcorn:
Right On, I'm a 86 GT Convertible original owner and love these videos. Got to tell you the OEM CPU and Ignition is Rock Solid other than sometimes the IM module fails. But I got '87 GT ported heads, 45 degree valves, Cobra Rocker Arms, High Performance valve springs, HP headers and exhaust system and 3:55 gears for a little more acceleration, runs like a champ !!!!
thanks for showing the struggles a tech goes through from time to time. Also, I don't think you're annoying and I love watching you guys together, pure gold.
Thank you Ruben
Yep you and Danner are Awesome!!! Love your interactions and the Respect and family care you guys have for each other!!!
That frustration is real.. Sometimes I don't sleep because I can't connect the dots.. And Caleb just made my day with is editing. I guess we are being a part changer today😂😂
right? sometimes it is a curse
It's awesome to know even professionals get stumped a little every now and then when working on automobiles great video👍👍👍
Poor Danner, he won't be sleeping until he figures this out.
you have no idea 🤣
I think most of us get it.... It takes a little longer to teach it, than to just talk about what you did. An EE the by education, I understand tech, but still enjoy you teaching the automotive application!
Awesome, love hearing from you guys. In another life electronic engineering would be it, it fascinates me
Those modules have always been junk. Back in the 80's they sold them in the auto parts section at K-mart. People would drive around with an extra module in their glove box. That PIP signal is way to consistent to be much other than pickup or module.
Oh man that brought back memories of having a handful of those laying around, I looked through my spare parts drawer and still have one in there from my old 3.8 tbird distributor lol
same with those honda main power relay, keep one in the glove box..
@@bwdz75: I still have a known-good, 4-wire, HEI module in my toolbox that's coming up on 40 years old. We were still troubleshooting a lot of POINTS ignitions in the 1980's 😆.
I kept a spare with the little tool to change it in the glove box, along with some arctic silver heatsink compound 🤣. The thunderbird turbo coupe was worse, you had to use motorcraft or it would not run right at all.
I had good luck with Motorcraft modules, but the key was to have the correct heat sink compound on the back. Without the right stuff, they'd fail real quick!
I'm a DIY'er and second guess my calls all the time. Watching these videos had definitely helped me more than I can say. Thanks for all of your hard work boys! Keep up the great videos!
Thank you Joshua
I enjoy the troubleshooting as well as the back and forth with your brother; it's very entertaining.
Thank you!
And that makes learning FUN
love it when it is challenging(not in a bad way).it just means we all face things that can really require us to stop and think about our process question our diagnosis....truly i am looking forward to what is the fix...i think the biggest threat to techs today is the possibility of a BAD part. and with all it takes sometimes to get to the part only to have a bad one installed.makes me very angry and frustrated for our future techs to have to deal with it......looking forward to the FIX....great video Paul...Caleb....James..
spot on with your comment on how difficult it can be when bad new parts become part of the variables, like this job isn't hard enough as it is right? Thank you my friend
@ScannerDanner
Oh it can be a nightmare. There was a time one vehicle had a bad brake switch , light stays on , swab out the brake switch with aftermarket part , no fix light still on. Went back to the store replaced it under warranty as defect. Plug it in same issue light stays on. I had to remove the switch again and this time opened the switch up and I saw that the plunger never makes contact inside the switch. It was a defective design of the switch. Went back to parts store explain the issue and got a 3rd switch same brand and opened it up same issue. Decided to get oem switch and problem solved. The oem switch plunger had a resistance feel with the spring. Better design.
@@dcomputers I just replaced a belt and tensioner on a '13 Ram Hemi. Gates tensioner, lifetime warranty. Well, a lot of good that lifetime warranty did - it lasted a whole ELEVEN days and 178 miles before the spring crapped out inside!! So pissed! Now my customer was pissed, so I had to go to Advance Auto for a Litens brand (never heard of them). At least this one was made in Canada instead of TURKEY! So I used Advance Auto's same day delivery - big fail there! Roadie, the delivery service they use, couldn't get a driver to come out here from the city! I called and complained - they gave me a $10 Speedperks. Told me it would be there some time after 9am the next day, Sunday. STILL wasn't here by 2pm! Ended up having to cancel the order and pick it up in person. What a huge PITA!! All because one company couldn't produce a quality part!
@Smitty Smithsonite
That is the issue with some aftermarket parts. I had a vehicle that h
Needed tbelt job . Found a cheap tbelt kit with seals tensioner. I notice no name on the parts that was a red flag. After 2000 miles the tbelt seals and tensioner failed. Too much tensioner idler belt cause belt to slide around the seals were not sealing. Had to redo job this time oem parts solid quality
@@dcomputers Gates used to be a good brand in the day. Not anymore I guess! Yeah, learned a long time ago to never use cheap parts on jobs that take a bit of labor, like timing components, engine internals, or just any electronic component. It'll bite you every time!
Let me tell you something you already know. YOU ROCK!! I'm so glad I'm not the only one banging my head on situations like this.
I feel I replace more aftermarket parts than I do original parts anymore. Aftermarket crank sensors, fuel caps, and ignition coils. They fail withing 10k miles, and I just keep saying *get me OEM*. I do enough warranty work due to aftermarket parts failure to pay my tool bills weekly I feel. Good work on tracking this down, we all feel that struggle from time to time when making a call. Constant 'what am I missing here?'
One other sense for grounding the Module to the Dist. housing is maybe to help protect the signal in the wires from EMI disturbance. There was a TSB sent out for the fender mounted ICM versions that explains about a corroded wire, inside the foil wrapped harness.
So when the Module was off and away from the Dist. maybe EMI was leaking in , threw the jumper wires witched caused the "No-Start".? Thank you for proving out each factor of flaw possibility to eliminate any questions and allowing more learning experience for all of us. i really do appreciate it so much!
Times have changed for me in terms of what I get from these videos, I spent years tottaly picking up
Electrical fundamentals and techniques. I still get that but now I get my confidence from the fact you get stumped. It makes me feel Like it's normal and ok for a good tech to get lost which helps when I do get lost if that makes sense. Thank you. I owe you alot
It does! And thank you for still watching after all these years!
@@ScannerDanner ovcourse, I always will
Module to distributor to pickup ground, I saw the module was well coated with heat sink compound. Heat sink compound is not conductive but you would think the bolts would make a good connection. Waiting for part 2
I worked on a ford truck with one of these systems, it had a bad module. Replaced it and it ran good for about 15 min. Got another module same thing happened. Parts house had a tester for these modules so we started ordering them from every parts house and had them test the modules before we even put them on. All of them tested bad straight out of the box!!!! Probably tested 10 new ones, ended up finding a used one someone had in there took box for like 20 years and it fixed it lol. JUNK PARTS!!!!
Man. I wanna know how many time's you walk away and go think. I counted atleast 20 smoke breaks in my head where i would have. Your determination is awesome and content is unmatched. I love learning new methods and your presentation is spot on for this. I appreciate all you do. -Mike
I was definitely confident, then not, like 5 times lol
@ScannerDanner i get that. I second guess mine alot. That's why i over test like you do. I have to be 100%
A job like this would require something a little stronger than cigarettes for my smoke breaks!! lol...
Maaan i was on the edge of my seat! Was it a module or pickup?!! That one heeluva twisted case study !!! Cant wait for part2.
Glad to hear that! That means Caleb did an outstanding job in the edits. Well have part 2 up for you guys next Sat
@@ScannerDanner he is a natural behind the camera as well the editing 👍
There are plenty of us eec iv guys out that still care!!
I’ve learned a ton about this stuff from you and I have no previous experience with this stuff.
These mustangs and trucks from this era are becoming collector classics.
I have a lot of video on the EECIV systems, so that's good to hear! 🙂 thank you!
I wish there were more mechanics like you in this world. Anytime I go to a shop they just scan for codes and say "cannot repeat problem, sorry"
That's priceless I like how he crossed off don't for don't be a purse changer. Awesome video.
Great information, i'm living identical scenario on 96 5.8 f150. I discovered there are at least four ignition module possibilities, the so called push start version, available in distributor and remote mount, and the computer controlled version, also available in distributor and remote mount, purportedly differentiated by grey or black color. As you said, these are all aftermarket parts of unknown content or quality. Good luck; anxiously waiting part 2.
For extra assurance I think checking resistance on the module fully fixed to the distributor and disconnected would have been helpful to clarify.💯
Awesome content! Good job fellas 👍 looking sharp in those new uniforms Danner!
This is a common situation us techs get with making a call and then second guessing the call. Only makes it worse for us. But keeping it simple diag helps.. Great video
So I lost a car to this problem. The dist failed and all brands of all aftermarket replacements were defective. The OEM was available but they wanted way more than the car was ever worth for the distributor. Had to junk it. Had no choice.😢 Hope you had better luck.
Sometimes it’s better to be a parts changer, its save lot of nerve cells. Of course risk of reputation damage is high. Here in Europe we have lot of diesel cars and sometimes it’s need to be a parts changer if you haven’t expensive equipment, I’m not a proud of it, but mostly I have lucky fix. Waiting for part 2! 👍
You and many others in the comments section are MUCH smarter than I and have much more skill on this (just an enthusiastic DIY guy now). I know my mentor on electronics always told me that if I had a weird issue, check your grounds, if on a car to check the battery, check alternator, then check every ground you ever thought about having again including removing and polishing the contact points for them, then ohm the ground wires while flexing. Especially on foreign stuff and12v neg stuff.
Caleb can always tell when you're getting worked up Paul. I noticed the momentary red glow! Great video. You'll get it in time. Please God, give us good parts!
I missed the red glow haha, saw the green one though
@@ScannerDanner LOL, it was green over here, too!
Thanks for doing EEC IV videos . very important to me. In my shop I only work on vehicles before they had body control modules ..
You need to look up Scannerdanner old video with White Bronco and a bad distributor pick up coil, the scope wave Ignition analysis are awesome and he has video with f150 that has weak pip/spout signals caused by low power from ECU power relay, awesome stuff, you won't be disappointed!!
It's so nice to see someone who knows what he is doing. 12 minites in, and I'm smelling some sort of inductive coupling.
I almoust glad that even you have sometimes difficult cases. I know you real professional with cars but this makes you human after all. Good video.
No reason to hide the struggles! We can all learn from them, sometimes even more than the final fix! Thank you!
Paul, Alldata does show a internal diagram of the profile ignition pickup in the ICM, under description and operation, might be of help, might not? Also if memory serves me incorrectly, the resistor (22 k ohms) Alldata shows in between ECM Terminal #4 and TFI and ignition coil control circuit DG/Y, will do some weird things to these engines!!!!! if failed! Looking forward to part 2 and 3 etc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Entertaining as always, I learn something every time I watch and I’m just a DIY’er
glad you're here Mitch! I have many DIYers that I've converted to full time diagnostic techs :-)
@@ScannerDanner great to see some older stuff worked on though. The newest vehicle I own is a 1994 Exploder, Followed by a 1994 VW passat, 1991 VW Corrado, and 1978 F-150 SC 4x4.
Love the scope how too on the ODB I and Pre-ODB cars.
This is painful for the professionals watching, we have been there, we don't throw parts. The rest of you watch carefully, this is true grit and learning that sometimes your just going to be required to guess and hopefully you succeed, or try again. Thanks this is so useful for everyone that's wanting to learn. Thanks, thank you.
Back in another life we built more then a few 2.3 efi turbos and 5.0 Fox bodies. I found a few things for sure. When we were chasing the elusive clean pull through the RPM band. We did two things. Clip a few jumper cables from the engine to ground and battery. The other was run the vehicle with a battery charger on it.
Also the TFI and PIP always needed to be OEM Ford parts. Sometimes the reluctor wheel can get damaged when replacing the PIP.
SPOUT is timing signal as controlled by ECM. Disconnecting it switches timing to control solely by IGN module at a set ten degrees btdc.
I thoroughly appreciated this video! I have a 1987 Ford Ranger 2.9L that uses the same parts. Thank you!
Great video. learned a lot. To rule out the alternator 100% disconnect the connector and the B+ terminal.
Love the long format videos, teaching us in your process of elimination is invaluable.
Love the editing, it makes the videos very watchable.
I am diesel mechanic, but pride myself on diagnostics mostly, I resonate with you Paul as I also usually solve problems by talking them through, even if its with someone who has no idea what I am talking about. I have been told its verbal processing, so no, you are not nuts for talking your thought processes out loud. Love the content.
God Bless from Australia 🤙
Exactly! I used to do the same when i worked in a shop, now I use my brother and he's smart, so it really helps me a lot!
2 dizzys in my 93 foxbody in the past yr, first replacement was bad out of the box, second still goin, neighbor has a 90 corolla that ive put 4 dizzys in it in 8 months, first one bad right out of the box, second carbon rod in cap came out and destroyed internals, 3rd one bad out of the box, got money back from oreillys and bought 4th from advance, this ones good, hopefully itll last longer than 6 months for him this time. Great video btw cant wait for part 2, all info i can get on these systems is incrediably helpful!
Its great watching them share thoughts and theories.
it is great to be able to do this with another tech and the fact that it is my brother, is icing on the cake! Thank you!
years ago, before scan tools and scopes, if we suspected a pick up or module we would pop the cap and give the parts a good cool down with some refrigerant shot from the can. 99.9% of the time it would temporarily correct it long enough to get it back to the shop. More prevalent on hot days after a heat soak when the customer stopped by the store resulting in a no start.
LOL. Love the edit. “Scanner danner, be a parts changer”
Under rated transistor in the module. They don’t build these like motorcraft did.
There is most likely only one manufacturer but different brands (packaging) so all of them on the market have the same problem.
Paul, Caleb its good to hear Ellie is doing better! I really like this video! It keep me thinking for sure! I especially appreciate the scope walk through while you were using the scope. God bless the Danner family! Thanks for all the hard work you put into making these videos for us!
The shots of paul sitting and thinking. I've been there trying to figure out things that don't make sense. Something it takes me days to figure stuff out.
I was thinking that the bad alternator might have wrecked the module… nice work btw! Scope use is amazing I should use it more!!!
We sold Sorenson brand when I was a counterman in 1988 as those modules started to go bad. Inside the box was an OE Ford part. They were $70 which was almost double the prior Ford version and over triple the GM. Chrysler’s didn't go bad much.
That AC ripple off the alternator could of hurt the module, you mentioned the AC feed back from the alternator to getting pick up by the hall effect. I've never depoted any of modules before, i do understand how it works, and component type for like example film versus electrolytic capacitors. Electrolytic capacitors both polar and bipolar struggle with AC. There are very fine tolerances components can have. As low as 0.01% when i got into valve Electronics the first thing i got was a vtvm specifically fir the analog resolution, its whole voltage divder used 1%(+,or- , some parts have ppm values etc) resistors which are very differnt from todays time every one of them were way off. Great video friend!
Interesting Paul, can't wait for the end result. Back in the 80's and 90's the TFI module was a high failure item. I had an 88 F-150 and kept a spare in my glove box, 😁. I had a Ford tech tell me one time that if the module fails Ford recommends changing the pickup as well, might be vice versa as well. I don't remember what the reasoning was.
the reasoning is because they didn't have scopes and had no idea how to tell the difference on which one was really bad :-)
@@ScannerDanner that was definitely a strange time as a technician... developing technology all the while diagnostic tools and education that were not up to par remember when the old Snap On brick scanner was the only tool to read ecm info? I still use an old brick to diag older gm tbi setup in 1990s church bus fleet, just doin what i gotta do
@@kc360awareness when the Snap-On Vantage reigned supreme!
@@ScannerDanner I have one of those too!
@@ScannerDanner YEP - that was why I always changed both, LOLOL! I always wanted to try one or the other to see what is actually failing, but it was too much work changing the pickup, and the TFI module was pricey! Over $100 at Ford in '07! I still have a TFI module or 2 that I kept around, in case they were good. I won't know if it's even good until this current one fails again.
1hr 5mins later. And I only thought 20 mins passed. Looking forward to part 2!
Best comment you could have possibly left us right here! I am sharing with my son Caleb. He is the one that makes this flow like it does. Thank you so much!
Had similar issues 1990 Gt. Original distributor (original TFI module, original pickup, original coil) was having bucking issues when warm, to the point it was stalling out but always restarts.
Decided to rebuild the original but, in the meantime, I would put in a replacement distributor… car started and ran good. Went around block and kept running well. Started and went on a 5 mile trip, ran great. Went to start it again…no start. Threw my old distributor back in, ran great.
Bought another distributor…same exact thing happened. Mustang forums are full of stories about this…the shutter wheel in the distributor being bad, pickup in distributor being bad, TFI module being bad.
I picked up another original distributor, installed it, works good. Now considering rebuilding my old distributor, but hesitant because the aftermarket replacement parts are the same crap being used in new distributors.
With that ford truck I did I was at my friends house and the truck was idling warming up and sounded great then all of a sudden the idle changed and became irradic and black smoke coming from tailpipe I seen it was almost out of gas so I had him go put gas in it and it still ran like crap, that's when I shut it off and turned the key on and the fuel pump kept on running so replaced ecm and that took care of problem. Thank you for getting back to me I enjoy watching your videos
Not done with the video yet, but i recently had fun with a 66 mustang that had a 93 drivetrain & electronics. Two new distributors from napa, which are cardone parts... Both had bad TFI out the box, one had a bad pip out the box also.
Im glad i had known good parts to use.
Heat will cause all sorts of issues with the 93 and older TFI systems.
O.m.g i felt every emotion you guys did!
Paul I have a 88 E350 with a 460 cu. in., and I went around in circles on mine also. Mine ended up being the pick up coil. Try checking the timing with a timing light and leave the spout in and watch the spark advance. If the advance is jumping around like mine was it's the pick up. I would unplug my spout and the spark was steady with the timing light and she ran and drove smoothly, even though she had no spark advance she was at least drivable. As they say, garbage in, garbage out. If the computer is getting a bad signal from the pick up its gonna give a bad signal for advance spark. That's why, (I believe) the mustang was 90% better without the spout connected, I think the intermittent miss (without the spout connected) was still pick up related. As far as the grounding issue, it's been awhile but I think the pick up does ground through the module, you'll have to check the schematic. Even though they're all China junk, I would just replace the pick up not the whole distributor, their easy enough to do, just takes a little time. If it is the pick up, what took out the pick up in the new distributor? What took out old pick up? Was it the Alternator or excessive battery charging? I would shy away from using the battery charger as sometimes I think I fried my pick up from constantly having my battery charger on all the time trying to fiqure out another problem I had. Depending on the amp setting on the charger it can put out quite a bit higher voltage. Anyways, just thought I'd throw my experience out there, hopefully you fiqure it out and I can't wait for part 2!
I was a Triumph motorcycle mechanic in the late 70's, before they got electronic ignition. There was a ship container of bad Chinese condensors that reamed everyone from coast to coast until it became apparent what the problem was. Imagine how many boxes of bad condensors were in that container. We went back to Lucas.
Tnx for the time u put in any headache u go thru is amazing how much u love what u do happens to me at the end is a happy ending
AWESOME video, can't wait for part 2!
Hey Brother this is why I've been watching you and for my post the other day about learning from you. I bought a '92 Foxbody Mustang 5.0 5-speed and I'd say I will be watching this part 1 & part 2 video over & over & over again to learn everything you mention and talk about.
And I started laughing everytime I could tell you hated to have to go back over there, specially the 3rd time!!
Only thing is I wished you lived around the corner from me or maybe you'll get awhole lot more 86-93 Foxbodies to ha e to work on.
Anyway Sir when it's all said and done I will know this video back and forth. Thanks again for this video, Absolutely Love it!!!
Wow, what a PITA! I have the exact same system on a '86 Grand Marquis. Only difference from the Fox bodies is everything in the engine compartment is backwards from mine - my intake faces the driver's side towards the airbox, battery and solenoid are on passenger side.
Whenever the ignition failed this way (which they always would after many miles and years) I always replaced the pickup and module as a set, but, Motorcraft was still making them back then. That makes me agree with you on the chinese parts. Other things could be metal shavings stuck to the pickup coil (since it's slightly magnetized), or a loose/worn distributor gear causing those weird scope graphs. That's all I can think of! Seems like a simple system but it's always these ones that'll throw a wrench at you sometimes. The right heat conducting compound is a HUGE factor in module life as well. It MUST have a good layer of that on there.
Last set I bought at the dealer was in 2007, and that is still working today (fingers crossed now that I say that, lol), almost 200k miles later. By 2009 they were no longer available - I should've stockpiled a few! 285k on the car now. It seems heat is a big factor with those failing. When I took my 1st '86 Grand Marquis to Phoenix, the module failed the 1st year I was there. Replaced it, then the car got stolen for a year - they found it in Bell, CA. I took a bus from Oakland to E. LA at 1AM to get it. That should tell you how much value I place on my vehicles (more than my life apparently, LOL!). But anyway, super curious as to what exactly is causing this one! Great stuff so far fellas!
I got screwed by a bad distributor 2 years ago.in a GM 366 TBI in a farm truck. Had a no start. Knew I made the right call as I had no pickup signal. Put new distributor in and set timing and man did it ever run like crap till it warmed up. One never wants to condemn something new so wasted some time chasing other stuff........plugs, wires (which needed done anyways really) coil..... only to circle back and put another distributor on.
I love the older cars....pre-2000 or so. They're just so much more simple to understand and repair...and they're my favourite to own.
you would think! This one wasn't for sure. Thanks!
@@ScannerDanner Ya, I think you're onto it when you talk about the lack of quality in so many aftermarket parts. I remember installing a new neutral safety switch on my e4od that I rebuilt myself. It ended up being faulty when I finally got around to starting up my 92 F250...and ended up putting the old one back in...lol....which worked just great. And I thought I was doing something that would increase reliability by replacing it when I did the rebuild...lol.
I have to say that I'm an advanced DIYer and until now I knew about the scopes and seen them in yours and Ivan's and Eric O's videos but this video kind of brought it all together. I think I'm now brave enough to get one and tinker with it. Also, when does part two come out?
Thank you! Next Sat for part 2. We are still editing it 😉
Yep, can't wait 'till part 2 comes out !!!
Excellent video. At 52.42 you mentioned a possible heat issue and I notice when you came back to it after taking a break to work on another car it started and ran good for the first few minutes then as it heated up it started running bad again and seem to me to run worse and worse the longer it ran. From my days at a Chrysler dealership that was characteristic of a pickup coil.
Paul, when you asked my if I still had my 86 5.0, I got rid of it because of what I noe believe to be a computer issue after seeing this video. I sold her off in ‘98!
I remember asking you that as I had this case study in mind!
@@ScannerDanner I had just graduated from college, got a job and brought a truck when she started acting up real bad! I got as frustrated as you did and put it up for sale! I paid $1,200 for it in 94-95
Wow its been a while since I seen an EEC-IV ignition!! That ground is a concern between the TFI module and the distributer, I noticed a lot of thermal grease (maybe a bit too much) which may cause an intermittent loss in ground connection. However, searching on Alldata there is a generic TFI ignition schematic showing the 3 hall effect sensor wires to the module. It showed one of the 3 wires is supposed to be a ground. Hmm, a ground between the hall sensor and the module... But why is the external connection needed? Thanks, Paul for the case study!!
Hey I wanna thank Scanner Danner for helping me figure out this 97 F350 5.8. I went thru the exact same sh$t! Shop before me replaced the dist. and remote mounted module and I knew he used O reiley crap so I tried replacing pick up coil with Carquest brand.....no difference. Then I tried CQ brand module.....same, cutting out off idle as before just like Mustang! I had my spark tester hooked up and it would flash good at idle but cut out off idle, after pulling out most of my hair I tried unplugging alternator after watching this video, sure enough ran like a champ.....went to Ford and got a motorcraft module and runs great WITH the alt. plugged in! Thank god I found this video. By the way alt. was charging the usual 13.8 -14 volts. Thank ya sir!!
When you said, no one cares about that car...you broke my heart... 😂
Mustangs are nice!
🤣🤣 I apologize, and completely understand with now owning an older truck myself
Great video Paul. I love when you work on these weird ones. Cant wait to see Part 2
I laugh when people say old cars are easier to work on never dealt with the ones with EEC 3 and 4. No datastream to look at and everything has to be measured manually to get a vague idea what is going on. Even the old GMs with TBI can send you off on wild goose chases.
I have EEC4, GM TBI and early BOSH . How did I make to 75 ?
When I say, "old", I mean carburetors and points. :) Now those I miss!!
Wow… this is déjà vu for me. I went through this same exact scenario on a 95 Ford bronco. Everything I’m watching on the lab scope from you is what I experience on this bronco. Called a bad distributor. Well the only new distributors that I can get my hands on or remanufactured for that matter was A1 Cardone. Four A1 Cardone distributors later, and endless hair pulling, I still was adamant that it was a bad distributor. So I told the customer to order a MSD new distributor from Summit. He got it he gave it to us I installed it, problem solved. It was a bad pick up from the start, but every subsequent aftermarket distributor was straight up garbage. And PS…. the only modules that work for Fords in my experience are the ones that are from Motorcraft. I’ve tried them all and been burnt by them all except for Motorcraft. You cannot buy a good aftermarket distributor for Fords unless it’s a high performance alternative. The dealer doesn’t offer it anymore, it’s obsolete. My experience.
I'm 20 minutes in & noticed the cheapo module that came out of the distributor. One word of advice on the TFI distributors... always use a Motorcraft module unless you enjoy replacing the module because you'll be in there changing it again if it's the cheapo module.
Good luck finding on original NOS module. I've been searching for one myself
@@mark98070 I've been lucky enough that my local dealerships motorsports department has a huge stock of them, DY1284. If you need one let me know!
In depth is so good.
Thank you.
I’ve got an 91 mark vii with the same drivetrain that has random ignition or fuel issues (I’m not sure) ..
Gives me hope I can figure it out.
Ha, lol. Love the X'd out word "Dont". At the intro with the default explanation, I almost put in my two cents the prob was cheep Dorman Chinese or Mexican parts. Reminds me of the importance of knowing your system and where the ground should be regarding the pickup, dustributor, or module. Years ago, working on a 74 Intern'l that wouldnt start; every test said it was a bad coil but when I tested the coil, coil was fine (tested while coil was still on the intake). I even removed the bracket mounting bolt to the intake and scratched it clean for a good ground; still wouldnt start. Retested everything. All tests pointed to a bad coil. So I racked my brains and said to myself, what am I missing? Long story short, I never actually removed the coil bracket from the coil for inspection. Turned out the coil bracket was rusted on the inside of the bracket but looked perfect on the outside of the bracket, what(?). How does a coil bracket rust on the inside but look perfect on the outside? Scratched the inside of the bracket clean, put it back together; srarted up immediately. Anyway, a 15 minute repair took over an hour. Those little annoying repairs are the one's you remember most. Funny how those old memories still haunt you after all these years. Looking for the follow up vid to this scenario. Thx for what you do!
good one!! Thanks for sharing
Great video Paul as always but you guys just aged 20 years LOL.Can't wait for part 2.
Was working for Honda back in 87. At that time we would take in the circa 84 ford tempo's etc on trade-ins. One of the techs was working for Ford before he came over to honda. He explained that there was a recall on those ignition systems. -- If I remember correctly there was an issue with too much current going through the TFI modules and damaging them around 40 or 50 K. The problem was the ignition coil drawing too much current and gradually frying the module. The fix was a new TFI and a new ignition coil. Those cars would simply quit running about the 50K mark and come in on a hook. -- According to the former ford tech, sometimes the heat would cause problems in the pickup coil inside the distributor and that would need replacement. BUT the original problem was a low resistance in the primary winding of the ignition coil.
Back in 88 I put in a new TFI and a new coil on a customer's car and explained the problem to the owner. She did not believe me and told me to put her old coil back in the car. -- Lots of people think those modules were junk, but it was the ignition coils that kept knocking out the TFI's.
Ford would upgrade the systems for free with a new module, ignition coil (And the distributor if needed, I can't remember the criteria concerning distributor replacement) up to 50k, No questions asked. After 50k you were on your own. The problem was many of them keep running till just beyond 50 or 60K. Put in a new module and you were good till it slowly cooked, just like the other one. ----- People didn't know or believe the fix was to replace the ignition coil with a newer one with a higher primary coil resistance, (Lower current flowing through the TFI.)
Ignition coil current flow peaks were perfectly fine (around 6 amps). Good tips though thanks!
I had a similar situation with an aftermarket module. The blades weren't quite
as thick as the old Motorcraft module, so when it was plugged into the connector
it wasn't making a strong contact 100% of the time??
I've chased the same problems on two 300 sixes . aftermarket modules didn't help , a used Motorcraft module did .
You need your own tV show discovery should pick you guys up. The most informative channel so far. Thanks for all the Easter eggs you given us.Some people don't like to show there tricks or tips. And electrical always the mystery for us DIY guys Thanks Again S.D your the best From 559
This comment means a lot to me. Thank you!
That pip voltage signal amplitude looks low. PIP should be 12 volt + with alternator charging imo.
memory tells me 10v on these, but I could be wrong, it's been awhile
Ford used Grey modules starting 83 up to early 90s then used black. There are differences with them if I can remember. That was a long time ago. I knew people that interchanged them but didn't know if they had any problems.
This content right there is better than that netflix crap!
Thank you!