Do we really have free will?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
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I once heard this example: if you go to the future with a time machine, and see that your friend will eat let's say pizza. Then you go back to the present. You now know that your friend will eat pizza the next day, but does that take away your friend's free will ? No ! He will still freely choose to eat pizza !
But that isn't omniscience. That's just minute knowledge about future events. Cuz you can know something such as your best friend. But can you read the intentions of his/her heart? Can you fully comprehend every fiber of their being? Did you create them? If not, this is a poor comparison and can only be used to rationalize inter-human relations, not an exceedingly vertical relationship such as man's to God.
@@newreformationapologetics4953 What I said is just an easy-to-understand example, not an actual precise explanation
@imaginox9 It is easy to understand, but it is still just human interaction with knowledge. I'm simply stating that this is a misrepresentation of how God knows things.
@@newreformationapologetics4953 How do you explain 1 Corinthians 10:13?
"No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."
By definition, a deterministic God is simply *incapable* of providing a way of escape, since He is in reality the one directing everything completely. So, what is James talking about here? If we have a way of escape from every temptation, and that way of escape is provided by God, it sets up a choice between two options---the sin, or the "way of escape." That's the definition of free will---choosing between two or more options. How does a determinist make sense of this passage?
@@ellisrhoades9895 James is speaking to Christians, those with the moral ability in Christ to choose sin or righteousness, an ability the natural man does not have. Free will is not about just making choices, it’s about being able to do what is morally pleasing to God. Only those in Christ have such an ability.
I have been pondering this for some time. I need more info to this. If God created time, that means events where made. Time is not time without events. In order for God to know things, he must see events that exist in time. How do we have free will if God created time and still be all knowing? Free will would create a separate event and God would not know it until it happened. The bible has versus that support both sides. Maybe we will never know fully. Its a mystery that I love pondering over.
God does not make events though. He created the universe and time. But he doesn’t create any particular event outside the initial creation. God does not create me choosing to eat pizza for dinner. I made that choice and God just so happened to have made a world where I would do that. There is evidence to suggest that God had the ability to look through different potential worlds which brings about the idea that him creating the world isn’t deterministic because he would have knowledge of multiple different possibilities. None of the deterministic theories really explain much outside God having knowledge which isn’t enough to show that he is somehow making us choose the things we do.
Double predestinationists enter the chat...
It is like a director and editor of a movie. The director allows the actors to act in the scene anyway they want and will do 20 different takes. At the time of editing the director chooses the scene that best fits his vision for the movie.
That is foreknowledge and Sovereignty while allowing for free will without predestination
That's a horrible analogy. That would mean that god is limited by what people do and whether what they do CAN fit his vision
@jayjonah83
GOD is ABSOLUTELY, NOT LIMITED.
Why is this difficult to understand?
GODS foreknowledge does NOT REQUIRE control.
Just because GOD gives us the free will to choose does not mean he was not in control of his decision to give or not give us free will, and GOD gave us our free will fully knowing what we would choose. No where in that scenario is GOD limited or not in control. GOD knows infinite possibilities, but that, by default, does not demand him to "pre-determine each possibility.
Think about it. Since GOD is omniscient, why would he have to pre-determine a single choice from an infinite number of choices that he controls?
Would not GOD, all together, and all at once know that his first pre-determined decision would be perfect and the only one needed?
GOD is Sovereign!!, but he does not excert his authority over every decision. The Only decision GOD has to make is to give us our free will.
If GOD actually controls every decision, then how can you explain the horrific acts of violence and suffering that people cause each other.
Please do not just tell me it is all for the ultimate glory of GOD.
You could not convince me, a believer, let alone an atheist, to believe in a GOD that causes a person to v*pe and murder children, for any reason, let alone an evil narcissistic being that causes people harm for his own glorification.
If GOD controls my every decision, then my love for him is meaningless because it is not ultimately MY LOVE. Admittedly, we do not have the power within ourselves to love GOD the way we should, and this Is when the Holy Spirit works in our heart to love, but if it is not our own free will desire to love, it is meaningless.
GOD is our father. As a parent, I teach my children the ways of the LORD, but if I forced them to tell me they love me, it would be meaningless. When they say "I love you" on their own volition, although I taught them and showed them the right way, it melts my heart and means everything to me. This is the heart of GOD with us.
Your teaching glorifies GOD for all the good, which is correct
NKJV, James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
But, your same teaching would make GOD the author of sin and then hold a person accountable for that the sin he made you commit and then hold you accountable in Eternal Judgment. That is why atheists do not want to serve your evil GOD.
In closing, all fIinite analogies, to explain the infinite, fall short in some way, but at least my analogy accurately reflects the character and ways of GOD, unlike your teaching that makes the The LORD and evil, unrighteous, unjust, monster.
@@michaelorman1205 except that in your analogy and your incredibly long and strange response god is limited. The way you're explaining it is that god is essentially the ultimate voyeur/ couch potato watching infinite reruns of people's lives and possible lives. Except that he has the ability to set each and every one of those possibilities in advance and create what he wants the way he wants it. It's like the writer of a novel, reading his completed novel and then getting mad at the way the characters that he wrote acted in situations that he created.
If we have free will then god isn't omniscient, he just has very accurate predictions but still watches to confirm his predictions. which would explain why god gets so mad when things go wrong in the Bible. It would also mean that we are powerful enough to thwart God's plans simply by acting within our free will.
@jayjonah83
The only thing that seems to be limited is your capacity for understanding.
In my explanation, GOD is in complete and full control.
Once again, I will explain this, but I will try and make it a little simpler for you this time.
As a parent, if I have a two year old and I am watching them play in their room. I ALLOW them to play with anything they choose to play with and I am in COMPLETE CONTROL of the situation. My choice to allow my child to choose on his own in no way limits my control. At any time, I can stop them from playing.
Now when it comes to GOD, he has the advantage of being Omniscient, that is all knowing, it seems you don't understand that, so He knows what we will choose and allows us to make those choices.
Nowhere in that scenario is GOD not in control.
What I'm hearing is that God is outside of time and God has thoughts. How can something have a thought if there is no time for it to have a thought?
😂.... WHAT!
What's even more noodle bending is how it could make a choice. Choice is the state of going from indecision to decision, the former must preceed the later and that requires... Time.
Forethought and foreknowledge isn't the same as determinism. EXACTLY God merely knows what we're going to do it's that simple 🤔. AMEN brothers and sisters in Christ our Lord and God bless you ALL. Brother Frank Turek and Cross Examined Apologetics ministry is doing great work in the furtherance of The Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ 🙏❤️👊. Good and Evil obviously exist it's how we survive by evolving to understand what is right or wrong based on what we experience and see happen to ourselves and others. SILLY ATHEISTS TRIX ARE FOR KIDS 🤣. Atheism ain't got nothing new or better to offer than the very religious beliefs it's critical of so it's hypocrisy at it's finest 😂. Hello this is for all you Atheists, unbelievers and skeptics. I'm going to address a few misconceptions and lies about God's Character and His Word. The Bible doesn't support chattel slavery or anything else Immoral. Ok so Atheists and unbelievers say God is either Immoral, incompetent or not responsible so let's see what The Scriptures actually say. God revealed himself and created a nation in a real, historical context. It was a world with a slave-based economy, with city states often at war with each other, with polygamous marriages to ensure the continuation of family lines. The laws of the Old Testament regulate this behaviour. Slaves are to be treated humanely (Exodus 21:11). They are given rights and not seen as mere possessions. Hebrew slaves were able to buy their own freedom. Human trafficking is condemned (Exodus 21:16). In contrast to the law code of Babylon, Old Testament Israel was a light to the nations. The Old Testament law and narratives do not stand alone. Jesus is now the best example of what we read. So the moral teaching of the Bible cannot be summarised by a quote taken out of context from the Old Testament to demonize God and His Word. Slavery was permitted in Old Testament law but it was regulated by God giving the Israelites instructions on how to fairly and humanely treat their slaves (it was like indentured servitude where someone could work for you if they owed debts or needed income not cruel like chattel slavery). God allowed the people of Israel to own slaves since they themselves has already experienced over 400 years of generations of Egyptian slavery and knew how inhumane it was to be beaten, overworked and taxed so God set them apart from other nations and cultures around them by giving them a fair way to treat their slaves since slavery had already existed in the world but it doesn't mean God condoned it just used it for His Will to bring Good And in the light of the whole scriptural teaching, we find the reasons for its ultimate abolition (Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1-3; Philemon 15-16 and Galatians 3:28). The Word of God provided the moral standard against slavery in the Roman Empire and against the slave trade in the New World.
But what of genocide or holy war in the book of Joshua? Several things could be pointed out. The use of warfare in the ancient world did not always mean literal total destruction, even when events are described in such terms. Furthermore, the book of Joshua does not describe a genocide. It is not a race who are being wiped out, as in genocide, but a religious practice which was often appalling and degrading. Those who repent (like Rahab from Jericho or Ruth) are not destroyed but become part of Israel. It is not the racial group that is in view but their "detestable practices".
However, after all is said, we must still acknowledge that God brought judgment on the nations of Canaan. It is not our place as believers isn't to sugar-coat the Bible. For some skeptics, this is enough to make God a moral monster. But the fact is that Jesus continued to affirm that God is a Judge who will bring a future judgment on all peoples and all nations. God’s judgment will be just. The list of Old Testament stories rejected by critics often leads to a similar dismissal of the New Testament teaching of Jesus on the existence of hell.
After all, what was the Flood of Genesis or the conquest of Joshua if not a glimpse of future judgment? Hell does not demonstrate cruelty on God’s part, but it does demonstrate His Holiness and our moral accountability. Perhaps this is the real reason many people rail against the God of the Bible? It is not that they think He is a moral monster, but that they are afraid He is a moral Judge, and that has implications for our behaviour now. God is an Eternal Almighty Spirit Being and we as His creatures have Eternal souls and spirits so the punishment for our sins against Him must therefore also be Eternal but so must the reward for righteousness that's why He sent His Son Jesus to live a perfectly righteous and sinless Life (which none of us could ever possibly expect to do) suffer the humiliating and torturous death of crucifixion to shed His Own Blood willingly so that all who willingly accept His gift of salvation by grace through faith in Him will be saved and given Eternal life because that's what God wants is for us to willingly accept His gift of salvation and choose life. Exodus 21:20-21 literally speaks about capital punishment befalling anyone who mistreats their slaves so yes people are taking Scripture out of context to demonize God who literally promises that slaves who are mistreated under someone else's authority is to be avenged. When we hear the word “slavery” we think of innocent human beings, kept prisoner for life, having no rights under law and so reduced to animals. This is clearly immoral because it is unjust: the slave has done nothing to deserve the treatment.
The situation described as “slavery” in the Bible was nothing like this. It is more accurately described as one of indentured servitude. Many “slaves” were indentured servants, working for a term of years
Some other “slaves” were prisoners. There were no prisons. Prisoners had to work to live like everyone else. Some had life sentences. Some served a term and were released.
People didn't beat their good slaves but treated them well and protected their assets thus.
But no matter how rebellious a slave was, you couldn't just beat them to death. And if you knocked out their tooth or damaged their eye then you had to set them free. (Exodus 21:26). God wasn't using what other nations did because He wanted to set His Chosen People of Israel apart from the cruel, inhumane and unjust systems other cultures had so He gave them a fair way to treat their slaves and servants.
There is a lot of ignorance on this topic which is understandable given the age we live in but it's not the nefarious set up we think of when we think of modern slavery. The question Atheists must ask themselves is how come the Jews aren't being accused of slavery and human trafficking if they're guilty of it in The Bible and why would white slave owners rip out pages from The Old and New Testament Scriptures to justify their owning blacks as slaves if The Bible already justified slavery?
you just gotta ignore the contradictions and be happy being illogical if you want to be a christian.
As rc would say,you're free but God is more free
Its a contradiction if you can't do otherwise (the "will" isn't trulyfree). So the question is could you have? If so then God isn't all knowing, because you did otherwise.
Have you ever read a "choose your own adventure" book? God knows every page of your book, but you get to make the choices. He knows all you've done, all you chose not to do, and all you could have been. He is the author of every page.
Knowing what pages you CAN choose and knowing what pages you WILL choose are not the same.
@@katamas832 I agree.
Conservation of information and quantum mechanics would absolutely allow anybody who knows the perfect state of a system to both predict perfectly the future and control it if you wanted to.
Thats science that says that 😂 who would know the perfect state of a system than god lol?
Just a question.... I say if we grant there is a supernatural power outside of time.... even if I grant that.... how now does one know that this power knows how everything is going play out ? Like where is Frank getting this secret information that know one else has access too apparently?
I mean it is just claim after claim coming out of Franks mouth that he doesn't back up.
Logic
Yep and I used it to write my comment just as you used yours to read it. This is an absurd question.
No it isn't. You're just too mentally lazy to actually think about it.
What you don’t seem to understand - in similar fashion to the concept of intent - is that you have no way of determining whether or not your god knew you’d write it, anymore than we would read and respond to it.
Given your narcissism, Festus, I would venture to say you wrote it because you wanted the responses.
Frank's view of God's sovereignty is merely foreknowledge not the One who causes, a spectator
The New Covenant says God will CAUSE us to Walk in his statutes
To work and to do for His good pleasure
That we are appointed for good works that we would walk in them
Frank wants it to be like God is a spectator, it would be more comfortable for him. But he can't get away from it. You can hear at the end of this clip he accidentally makes God a cause, when he says that if we made other 'free choices' it would be because God chose to create a different world where we 'freely' chose differently.
God chooses our choices, it's entailed in his position. He just has trouble admitting it :)
Arguments from a child in an infant universe
This is word salad nonsense and couldn't disagree more
I finally understood this with peace when I thought of Noah:
God didnt MAKE him build the ark, but He KNEW that Noah would listen. So basically God knows that people will accept or reject Him, not that He forces them to do so. Thus free will and perfect sovereignty!
Except that HE creates people the way HE wants them,
Or is he bound by the future and has no free will
No…. That’s called free choice. Do u not know the deference between choosing and will?
Please explain ? @@phantomsylla4617
Why not reveal the "10 suggestions" to Moses then ?
Noah doesn't have the free will to not build this ark in this universe. Otherwise God would have known and created the universe differently. It proves the point that we have will, but it cannot possibly be free if God created the universe with all actions predetermined.
At the end of the day. I dont want free will. My free will always leads me to destruction. I want my God's will to be my will. Take my will oh Lord let only your will be done.
Amen
Live that out and that's great press in .dont be lukewarm and go 100 percent if possible
you need to read the Bible because what you are saying comes from Calvinism (Satan) not the Bible.
@@TommyCollins-qv4yi wrong thats your strawman repent
@@jeffrey6618 we all have freewill -Calvinism is from Satan
One thing I've accepted is God put limitations on our minds for a reason. We are not meant to know all that God knows we aren't built for it. We only know what God reveals to us.
Which is what exactly? And how have you determined this connection from said revelation to a god?
Time and God is best explained in the example of a street parade. God views it from above. You view it from the street.
While you get excited there is a firetruck God saw it from the beginning as he sees the whole parade. You only see what drives in front of you.
Better example is comparing dimensionality. When we look at a two dimensional painting we are unable to view it in one dimension. God is not in time like we are because he existed before time and time is a function of the known universe. Before the big bang these was no such thing as time so there is no "before the universe" because the dimension for measuring didn't exist
That's not foreknowledge, that's prediction based on observation. A better example of foreknowledge is like having a perfect recollection of tomorrow's parade.
Wouldn't god be the creator of the parade so wouldn't it play out the same no matter what the vantage point? He wouldn't need to see it because it's already happened the way he intended for the parade to happen
@@jayjonah83
And that means nobody in the parade has the free will do decide differently and counter Gods predictions. How is anyone in that parade free? The people have will, but as you stated it's predetermined, so you just proved determinism.
Haha, he's tap dancing and not answering.
God is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Infinity awesome and powerful .and patient with little timy humans he created .hallelujah thank you lord almighty God the father God the son and God the holy ghost.
🎉❤😊
FACTS EXACTLY God merely knows what we're going to do it's that simple 🤔. AMEN brothers and sisters in Christ our Lord and God bless you ALL. Brother Frank Turek and Cross Examined Apologetics ministry is doing great work in the furtherance of The Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ 🙏❤️👊. Good and Evil obviously exist it's how we survive by evolving to understand what is right or wrong based on what we experience and see happen to ourselves and others. SILLY ATHEISTS TRIX ARE FOR KIDS 🤣. Atheism ain't got nothing new or better to offer than the very religious beliefs it's critical of so it's hypocrisy at it's finest 😂. Hello this is for all you Atheists, unbelievers and skeptics. I'm going to address a few misconceptions and lies about God's Character and His Word. The Bible doesn't support chattel slavery or anything else Immoral. Ok so Atheists and unbelievers say God is either Immoral, incompetent or not responsible so let's see what The Scriptures actually say. God revealed himself and created a nation in a real, historical context. It was a world with a slave-based economy, with city states often at war with each other, with polygamous marriages to ensure the continuation of family lines. The laws of the Old Testament regulate this behaviour. Slaves are to be treated humanely (Exodus 21:11). They are given rights and not seen as mere possessions. Hebrew slaves were able to buy their own freedom. Human trafficking is condemned (Exodus 21:16). In contrast to the law code of Babylon, Old Testament Israel was a light to the nations. The Old Testament law and narratives do not stand alone. Jesus is now the best example of what we read. So the moral teaching of the Bible cannot be summarised by a quote taken out of context from the Old Testament to demonize God and His Word. Slavery was permitted in Old Testament law but it was regulated by God giving the Israelites instructions on how to fairly and humanely treat their slaves (it was like indentured servitude where someone could work for you if they owed debts or needed income not cruel like chattel slavery). God allowed the people of Israel to own slaves since they themselves has already experienced over 400 years of generations of Egyptian slavery and knew how inhumane it was to be beaten, overworked and taxed so God set them apart from other nations and cultures around them by giving them a fair way to treat their slaves since slavery had already existed in the world but it doesn't mean God condoned it just used it for His Will to bring Good And in the light of the whole scriptural teaching, we find the reasons for its ultimate abolition (Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1-3; Philemon 15-16 and Galatians 3:28). The Word of God provided the moral standard against slavery in the Roman Empire and against the slave trade in the New World.
But what of genocide or holy war in the book of Joshua? Several things could be pointed out. The use of warfare in the ancient world did not always mean literal total destruction, even when events are described in such terms. Furthermore, the book of Joshua does not describe a genocide. It is not a race who are being wiped out, as in genocide, but a religious practice which was often appalling and degrading. Those who repent (like Rahab from Jericho or Ruth) are not destroyed but become part of Israel. It is not the racial group that is in view but their "detestable practices".
However, after all is said, we must still acknowledge that God brought judgment on the nations of Canaan. It is not our place as believers isn't to sugar-coat the Bible. For some skeptics, this is enough to make God a moral monster. But the fact is that Jesus continued to affirm that God is a Judge who will bring a future judgment on all peoples and all nations. God’s judgment will be just. The list of Old Testament stories rejected by critics often leads to a similar dismissal of the New Testament teaching of Jesus on the existence of hell.
After all, what was the Flood of Genesis or the conquest of Joshua if not a glimpse of future judgment? Hell does not demonstrate cruelty on God’s part, but it does demonstrate His Holiness and our moral accountability. Perhaps this is the real reason many people rail against the God of the Bible? It is not that they think He is a moral monster, but that they are afraid He is a moral Judge, and that has implications for our behaviour now. God is an Eternal Almighty Spirit Being and we as His creatures have Eternal souls and spirits so the punishment for our sins against Him must therefore also be Eternal but so must the reward for righteousness that's why He sent His Son Jesus to live a perfectly righteous and sinless Life (which none of us could ever possibly expect to do) suffer the humiliating and torturous death of crucifixion to shed His Own Blood willingly so that all who willingly accept His gift of salvation by grace through faith in Him will be saved and given Eternal life because that's what God wants is for us to willingly accept His gift of salvation and choose life. Exodus 21:20-21 literally speaks about capital punishment befalling anyone who mistreats their slaves so yes people are taking Scripture out of context to demonize God who literally promises that slaves who are mistreated under someone else's authority is to be avenged. When we hear the word “slavery” we think of innocent human beings, kept prisoner for life, having no rights under law and so reduced to animals. This is clearly immoral because it is unjust: the slave has done nothing to deserve the treatment.
The situation described as “slavery” in the Bible was nothing like this. It is more accurately described as one of indentured servitude. Many “slaves” were indentured servants, working for a term of years
Some other “slaves” were prisoners. There were no prisons. Prisoners had to work to live like everyone else. Some had life sentences. Some served a term and were released.
People didn't beat their good slaves but treated them well and protected their assets thus.
But no matter how rebellious a slave was, you couldn't just beat them to death. And if you knocked out their tooth or damaged their eye then you had to set them free. (Exodus 21:26). God wasn't using what other nations did because He wanted to set His Chosen People of Israel apart from the cruel, inhumane and unjust systems other cultures had so He gave them a fair way to treat their slaves and servants.
There is a lot of ignorance on this topic which is understandable given the age we live in but it's not the nefarious set up we think of when we think of modern slavery. The question Atheists must ask themselves is how come the Jews aren't being accused of slavery and human trafficking if they're guilty of it in The Bible and why would white slave owners rip out pages from The Old and New Testament Scriptures to justify their owning blacks as slaves if The Bible already justified slavery?
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 Because His solution to the darkness was you-- me, all of us. He gives us access to authority, manual, helpers, a rigged game plan, tools. But they're all available in Him, when we ask and agree with Him.
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 Because we're His babies and learning to Love involves free-will to choose.
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 Technically, according to the God of the Bible, our spirits lived inside Him, we are all His children. Yes, we each choose to be with Him or not, that's how free-will works.
An existence without Living Life giving Light and Love Himself is an empty dark place. One that was only meant for the fallen angelic beings.
You choose, we all choose.
God gve us free will? Where is it written the bible
God: knows how fucked up this world will be if he makes it
Also god: makes it anyway
Exactly 😂
Already knows which of his creations will be good boys and girls and which will be naughty and could assign them to their respective places (heaven/hell) in advance, but wants to play out all the suffering, death, torture, rape, molestation anyway. Yeah, He's a real charmer. Christopher Hitchens' book "God is Not Good" seems appropriate here.
And the fact that verbs like "knows" and "thinks" need time to be done makes it even more funnier.
Yet they say he’s all loving he made cancer and he allows people too 🍇 babies but people will say that’s the devil like he allows this he can intervene but he doesn’t tho
This is why only deism makes sense if God is real
God "CAUSED" pharaohs heart to harden 😮😮. Did pharaoh choose. Silly Christians!!!
That’s not free will if God already knows what we’ll do - this is determination
FACTS
True, theological arguments are more mystical and circular than metaphysical, tbh. They're counter thinking and a mental fascism of sorts.
@@sarcoffeegusphotonlabI don’t think we are determined as a Christian.
If we were GOD wouldn’t have sended the great flood
He obviously knows everything that’s going to happen, maybe he willingly created us with true free will, or he just turns the blind eye WILLINGLY, out of pure love.
Because we are the chosen ones made in his image.
@@fernandoabascal6295sad how delusional and devoid of logic you are. If he knows whats going to happen then our paths are determined, and because of that we cant have free will.
No. Did you not listen. Knowledge is not cause. Just because you know the score to the football game doesn’t mean you caused the players in it to choose the things they did.
If God knowingly knows he created me as he was molting my clay he knew he was going to send me the hell forever eternity with national teeth and pain and suffering and torture! Why even create us in the first place
What?
Mr. Frank Turek is beating around the bush and saying nothing without making any sense or answering the question. Notice how he says "Prior to creating this universe, he knew we'd be standing here" that implies that God knows what you'll do regardless of whatever you DO. otherwise how would he know??? why should he hold us accountable if he knows what we'll do?? If God knows whatever thing that you WILL EVER DO, then how can HE hold you accountable for anything that you DO, that'd be living in a simulation or like a video game. He also says that God doesn't cause us to do what we do but somehow knows what we'll do anyway regardless if our choice, How does this make logical sense?????? If determinism is real, then who determines what is determined? if not then how does God know what we'll do if it is not determined???? heck, how can we even know? we don't know what we'll do in the next 2 hours or day. This doesn't make any sense. What does living outside time even mean??? Like if you do something and it gets done, you've spent time doing it hence why it exists or is, there is duration/period spent in doing something, so again what does being outside of time mean??? These are questions that even frank turek can't answer and if he tries he'd be making sh!t up.
Multi verse got nothing on GOD(Jesus)
so basically, God knows all the possibilities but doens't cause anything, thus arbitrary and indifferent.
He is causing.... that's the point.
He does NOT cause you to make the choice of right and wrong He lays out the options for you tho
@@IveSeenSupernatural how does he lay out the options for you, he knows you will do x if you do not do x then god was wrong which is not possible so you must do x and since you must do x you have no other option so how can you have free will
@@Wow-hr1gl " i will set a stumbling block "
everday you make choices to live like God, or do something not like
these options can be a thought in your mind, people coming into your life, or opportunities etc
choices are the options, the options are choices
pharos ten plagues is a good one...
God puts the option to let His people go...and pharo keeps refusing to hold his word to the deal over and over.. phaor makes the choices...God works in the world in order to bring us to the option..its kinda crazy how we think our lives and minds are all random, when in fact all the time in bible God leads you to things or things to you
He knows because Hes God......not because Hes FORCING you to send yourself to H THAT....Is...EVILL....NO..MATTER...WHAT....YOU...SAY
literally just read bible..like almost every single book will have your 'predeterminism God' looking INSANE
like God makes Himself weap because Hes forcing people to reject Him?thats INSANE mindset
Gods purposely making His people disgraced wrongly by being captives in egypt ?
God forced eve to eat the apple? ITS EVIL nonsense all backed up by verses about predestined blood lines/peoples for UNIQUE reasons, OR how God ultimately CHOOSES us into the kingdom...we STILL have to make the FREE WILL CHOICE to desire God...
"for many are called, but few are chosen"
"for God wishes all be saved"
why is God calling people He wants saved, just to pre determine them to turn away ? IT...MAKES...NO..SENSE..thats NOt...WHO...God...IS
@@Wow-hr1gl thoughts on your mind, people or opportunities in your life etc.. you make the choice which path of right or wrong... very simple
moses tells pharo let us go.. pharoh says ok...God removes a plague... pharoh CHOOSES to go back on the deal and hardens his heart towards the ppl.... its a choice
@@Wow-hr1glBecause we can choose to do x or not x, and God isn't causing us of that choice independently freely we made
Frank is a walking contradiction. Everything has already been determined. It’s like god has a movie and watches the movie and the. Obie will always be the same. Some free will. Free will according to Christian’s is an illusion
those questions MUST BE asked by people who don't have children. If you've ever watched a small child, YOU SEE them rationalizing, choosing, and acting. As their parent, you know you didn't give them their will but you can tell oftentimes what they're going to do before they do it. To act (or wonder) as though God, who gave us our will, has LESS power/foresight than parents is the epitome of silly.
I was about to leave a comment that would communicate this very idea, but then I read yours lol.
Wow. Mom of five, hi
“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.”
James 1:13-15
By that logic, if you’re asserting what I think you’re asserting. God having the foreknowledge of our choices, thus meant that He caused us to choose them.
Just as the author of a book has foreknowledge of everything that can and does happen, so too does God. Yet those “characters”, still make their own decisions if the author is good, one is not like the other, and each one chooses this or that. It isn’t that the author caused them to make such an action, but that the character in mind is known to do such things, even change drastically if you go far enough back into anyones childhood.
This is under the presumption you are arguing against free will, if not, do ignore all of this xD
What a load of utter, utter bollocks. A parent is there in the room. Your genocidal narcissist sky wizard is absent, invisible and totally silent. I know who I'd rather have looking out for me.
That's different than KNOWING your child's choices before they were even conceived. Which is what Frank is claiming about god.
How does he KNOW this claim about God's omniscience ? Where, on Darwins green earth, would ge get this evidence ? Seems like an enormous presupposition or gigantic leap of faith.
Time was only created by man to judge his own actions. GOD is not governed by time.
Does that sound smart to you? Serious question because that sounds retarded to me.
So he knew about the Uvalde massacre and did nothing? Sounds like a prick.
I know my child will steal candy but I will still give them a talking to if she takes the candy without permission. She doesn't get a pass just because I knew she would sneak it prior to her doing it. She still has free will and I still know she will. The punishment will still happen and she knows it but the punishment doesn't stop her because she chooses not to heed the warning of punishment.
Then if god knows everything past present and future he already knew I would commit the sins I’m going to commit and already knew if I would repent or not. So we really don’t have free will bc he already knew everything wed do before we took our first breath. This is a giant hole in the free will argument
This is one of those interesting subjects. This weekend we celebrate the life of Saint Joseph, and we can all wonder 'what would have happened if he had denounced Mary and had her stoned to death'.
God being 'outside of time' already knew how Joseph would react, how Mary would react. But He did not force them or control them.
The 'outside of time' issue can be a bit of a brain fryer if you let it. Just spend some time with 'Before Abraham was, I am'
Uhhh yes he did
Your silly god character is supposed to be an omnipotent, omniscient, PRIME MOVER.
Meaning he knew exactly how the way he knocked those domino's over would dictate every single choice you will ever make.
You have no ability to choose otherwise in this scenario.
So you have no free will.
I hope and assume you guys get tthat the ''preacher'' is wrong.
The guy with the question is right.
Free will clearly doesnt exist. You can research that eaisly, besides it being in the BIBLE too
It confuses me how he can describe a deterministic universe, but then say it's a universe with free will. If anyone knew the outcome, they did so by knowing the cause and effect. It clearly wasn't random.
Because that’s the world we live in. It is deterministic, everything is caused by something else, but we acknowledge as a society that at some point in consciousness determinism is broken. Otherwise we wouldn’t send people to prison. We have free will in a deterministic universe.
@@sandmancesar You contradicted yourself. It's deterministic or it's not (it is). Saying everything is determined by prior cause, except when I want to make a decision, is just special pleading. It also wouldn't make sense to send someone to prison without determinism, as you'd have no way whatsoever to know what doing so would achieve. Either as a punishment or rehabilitation, knowing that it will be an influence on their behaviour is required for it to serve its purpose. Random, causeless behaviour is, definitionally, impossible to affect or predict.
@@PlatonistAstronautyeah, it’s called compatibilism. The free will is based on the human capacity to actually determine what will happen. In the mind of God the world is determined, but as long as we can’t account for every single chaotic particle, our world is free. The mind is separate from the physical world, and that’s what is hard for people to understand. We live out of the mind, not out of material objects. Any choice you make is an illusion only for God, never for you, you can always decide whatever you want.
@sandmancesar religious arguments and special pleading are non-starters. Not interested.
@@PlatonistAstronautlol it’s not a religious argument, you can call it the mind of God or all the information that exists within the universe, it’s the same thing. You have a wrong conception of what free will means, it is not a physical phenomenon, it is an existential one. Human existence and perception are at the center of the argument.
Ephesians 1:4-6 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Its according to his will not his foreknowledge,
eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will
again his will not his foreknowledge!!
eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
God prepared not knew about!!!
Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
did he not harden Pharos heart to bring about his will,?
It’s not even agreed that we have free will among neuroscientists, and if God knows what we’re going to do he must have a way of knowing and it is in that way that we are predictable. If we are predictable there are causes that determine the predictions , and so we aren’t actually free if our future actions can be known
It's not predicting, it's observing all of time simultaneously as described by Einstein and confirmed in general relativity.
I went to buy a pizza but God knows I will have a burger instead. If my future is set to have the "free will" to buy a burger, as God knows that already, there is no free will, there is just the illusion that I do. He is basically saying "you have the freedom to choose between pizza and burger, as long as you choose the burger".
Can I ask a question? I'm not trying to posit a claim but merely ask a question. Imagine if we had a particle in a super position between two states of spin. We don't know the state of the spin until we observe the particle. If we could somehow sit outside of space time in a way that would allow us to observe the particles spin state before, it was even in a superposition. We did this without the wave function collapsing to see what state it is in. Have we caused the spin state to be one way or the other? It's a counterintuitive thought. If there is a God, what if it saw the box Schrodinger's cat was in as translucent? Does that change the fact that it's in a superposition for us, if the outside observation causes no wave function collapse?
Here’s a question though, reading the comments below. If God knows all the choices that we will make in our lifetime, our own free-will choices, and if one of those choices is to not follow Him or give our lives to Him and be saved, will he step in and try to put people or opportunities in our path to lead us to making a choice of salvation, this altering his omniscience of knowing all the choices we will make? 🤷🏼♂️
No he won't, that would undermine our free will
God already did, the prophets, the judges, Jesus
U failed at answering a question
so he knew about all the rape murder and misery, and not only let's it continue, but this is the world just as he chose it to be. well, that's demented, but OK. he must be perfectly happy about his perfection. This frank guy never says anything at all that makes sense.
The Bible also says that God can be everywhere all at the same time. And that is the key because you would have to be outside of time to be able to be everywhere. We also know from science that space, time, and matter all had to be created at the same time. The Bible says in Gen 1:1 “in the beginning (time), God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter).
Outside of time is a nonsense term. You people talk like babies.
The "outside time" thing is meaningless, its a handwave/special pleading to excuse all the logical contradictions inherent in the conception of the modern conception of God; please recognize that when the Bible was compiled, JHVH/God was NOT thought of as "timeless/spaceless, existing "outside the universe", etc.; He was literally thought to dwell in the "firmament" above the "dome of the stars" which encased the Earth. The "timeless/spaceless" bit was invented by apologists as human knowledge of the world around us grew and grew and increasingly contradicted mythological models.
Ah, yes let's just add our own words and meanings so that their meaning's now entirely different to was was literally written. /s
And then announce that the written words are the absolute truth (but actually, we added our own meaning, so what we think it means is now the absolute truth) /s
Those are the Hebrew words. ‘Bara’ means created out of nothing. Rev 10:6 says time will be no longer, so we know it had to start.
But god created you thats the difference between just knowing the future of a person and a person having free will. If god created you and there for he knows what youll do how is that not the same as a programmer deciding what a person in a video game does? Or what a robot does?
Frank doesn't answer the objection, saying God doesn't cause that presupposes we have free will and of course he doesn't cause our actions, but doesn't address the problem with knowing beforehand and freely doing it still. The only way to be omniscient, to know everything that will happen with absolute certainity, is for the future to have 0% chance of changing. Which would mean the future is predetermined by prior causes, as it has 0% chance of changing. Whatever that cause was is irrelevant. God's omniscience doesn't cause us to act, but it does mean that the universe we live in is deterministic and predetermined. Which are incompatible with libertarian free will. And thus we can't have it. The cause of our actions is irrelevant.
You're making a few logical leaps there, with flaws in them. Foreknowledge is not the same as predeterminism. Frank sometimes uses a fairly appropriate analogy for this (although it's not perfect, as with most analogies): You have to miss one of your favourite teams games, but you have a service you can watch it from later. Someone let's slip the final score of the game. You now know the outcome before you watch the game. Then you watch the game. Does your knowledge of what the players will do alter their freedom during the game? Your perspective doesn't limit their behaviour.
@@stephenkeen6044 No, perfect, absolute foreknowledge however necessitates predeterminism.
Yeah, that analogy isn't even close to perfect, and still flabbergasts me ever since I heard it, since, you're watching a footage. Not the actual event. The players can have free will during the match, and you have zero foreknowledge about it, since the match is already over, you got to know the scores AFTER the match was over. You only watch a recording of a match which consists of a large number of pixels you recognize as the players. Those indeed have no free will, as they are not the players. The players are likely resting, eating or having fun miles away from the arena. It's an analogy that doesn't even attempt at being similar, it's literally a completely different scenario.
@@katamas832 Well, it's kind of hard to come up with an analogy that perfectly matches a situation we cannot completely understand. God's timeless nature. If you know someone will never choose to believe, then you know they will never choose to believe. It doesn't mean you're responsible for their choice.
"absolute foreknowledge however necessitates predeterminism." - No, it doesn't. Since you make the claim, you have the burden of proof here.
@@stephenkeen6044 It doesn't have to perfectly match it. An analogy that perfectly matches the scenario is a comparison at that point. Just make more sense than the football analogy.
Knowledge doesn't cause anything, but absolute knowledge of the future necessitates predeterminism. I am not saying God's omniscience causes anything. I'm not saying the blood on the floor caused someone to bleed. I am saying the blood on the floor means someone bled.
Already provided it. We have 0% chance to do otherwise if the future is already perfectly known in advance. If we can't do otherwise, then the future is already determined, before it happens. Hence, it is predetermined. And if we can't do otherwise, we don't have free will. This is pretty much definitional.
@@katamas832 "absolute knowledge of the future necessitates predeterminism" - No, it doesn't, and your little piece of diatribe doesn't get you any closer to showing it, merely making the claim it does without supporting the claim.
"We have 0% chance to do otherwise if the future is already perfectly known in advance" - The point is that we make the free choice in the moment we make it. No matter "when" it is observed.
Observation is not causation, no matter how many times you claim it to be, foreknowledge is not predetermination.
If He really give us free will why is there consequence for disobedience and on the other side He reward who obey Him
God sets before us life and death, but would rather that we choose life. HE sets before us the pathway that leads to life or death.
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 Free will is a unique gift from God. So much so that Lucifer and his host of fallen angels freely decided to challenge the authority of their Creator and God.
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 yes, we all have the God-given freedom to believe whatever we want. But that free choice will either bring you the blessing of life or the curse of death.
Everybody has an idea of what they are going to do tomorrow. If you have a "Quantum" type mind, it's not that you "know" everything, it's that you have conceived every possible outcome.
So you're comparing God to a quantum computer? God isn't such a thing because He has personage and decreed that everything would be such. It's an intimate knowledge, not some mechanical, unloving, robotic knowledge.
@@newreformationapologetics4953 I'm not reducing, I'm comparing it to "Probability". We tend to Anthropomorphize everything, I'm not doing that, what I'm saying, is if you know every possible conceivable outcome, you "know" everything.
@Tim Orean Well, there's a difference between knowledge of a think and creating a thing, resulting in knowledge of effects. Because when you say probability, it's taking in foreign infections to create inductions/deductions. In the case of God, creation is reliant on Him for a cause, which inevitably would remove probability altogether and move into absolute certainty.
@@newreformationapologetics4953 Ok, but if you "know" everything what everybody is going to do, then why create? It's like making a Movie you already seen. God would not willingly create evil, so I guess it's about "Potential" to do evil, which we all have. Thoughts like these are hard to express in an articulate way.
@@newreformationapologetics4953 I'll try this. Imagine, you were going to throw a die. If I knew the Speed, Angle, Velocity, Bounce etc. Technically, I would "know" what you are going to throw, before you did it.
How do you know that God is outside time? Which God?
We have free will yet God is in control, we can choose the path we want, and if we follow what God has already planned for us then we are walking with him. If we choose things in our lives that do not please the Lord God then we make that choice even though God knows that also! We have the decision to do what we want. Yet He’s waiting for us to come to him for the answers and for guidance, sometimes we don’t listen and we do our own thing and it never works out!
Where is the biblical evidence that states we have free will.
I am with the guy asking the question. If you believe that God is all-knowing *_and_* you believe that God is all-powerful and created everything, then I don't see how you can escape the conclusion that he willed every choice we ever made. After all, he could have created a different universe in which we did something else, couldn't he? So in that very real sense he really did cause us to choose whatever we chose, and our experience of free will is nothing more than an elaborate illusion.
"After all, he could have created a different universe in which we did something else, couldn't he?"
I don't know.. Could He? Not sure that's possible if you retain true free will, which is an important aspect in the actual universe we live in. You'd have to demonstrate that to be possible in order for your argument to stand.
Foreknowledge is not predetermination, observation is not causation.
@@stephenkeen6044 Hi Stephen! I hope you are doing well.
You said: _"I don't know.. Could He? Not sure that's possible if you retain true free will, which is an important aspect in the actual universe we live in."_
I don't know... Is it? How much free will do planets, stars, or galaxies have? How much free will does a water molecule, or an amoebe have?
I acknowledge that the idea that we, humans, have some measure of free will is at the core of our experience of reality, but that does not necessarily mean that our impression is correct.
You said: _"You'd have to demonstrate that to be possible in order for your argument to stand."_
No, see above. There is no need for me to argue that free will must be retained at all. I am agnostic as to the existence of free will.
However, if your theology presupposes free will on the one hand, but claims your God to be all-knowing, all-powerful, and the creator of everything on the other hand, then you have a problem with Mr. Logic.
You said: _"Foreknowledge is not predetermination, observation is not causation."_
...Unless you also believe that the same entity that has foreknowledge created everything, and is all-powerful.
@@hansdemos6510 " if your theology presupposes free will on the one hand, but claims your God to be all-knowing, all-powerful, and the creator of everything on the other hand, then you have a problem with Mr. Logic."
Which you will have to demonstrate, not just claim. Without presupposing the opposite, ie that everything is deterministic in creation.
@@hansdemos6510 Oh, and greetings, hope you're doing well, too!
@@stephenkeen6044 I said earlier: _"However, if your theology presupposes free will on the one hand, but claims your God to be all-knowing, all-powerful, and the creator of everything on the other hand, then you have a problem with Mr. Logic."_
You replied: _"Which you will have to demonstrate, not just claim."_
Sorry, but I think that is self-evident; it is just what those words mean.
If you believe God knows everything we will do before he created the universe, and if you believe he is powerful enough to create a different universe if he wanted to, then by definition we are doing what he wants us to do, and we are unable to do otherwise. After all, if he didn't want us to do what we do, he would have created a different universe. This is a logical consequence from the beliefs listed above. You are "free" to deny any of them to solve the issue, but as far as I can see, you cannot maintain all of them together without getting into some kind of logical contradiction.
You said: _"Without presupposing the opposite, ie that everything is deterministic in creation."_
You are free to become hardcore Calvinist (although then you would not believe you were "free" in that sense...).
God inky exists in the minds of those who believe…
Amen brother
Not quite satisfying of an answer
Baffles me that people don't understand this concept. It's like when a parent knows exactly what their kids gonna do before they do it, doesn't mean they're causing they kid to do it, it's just knowledge, now apply that to the creator of the universe who knows not only what we're going to do but also what we're going to think.
Estimating what someone is likely to do is not knowing with certainty that they will do it.
@@jayAh635 in some cases it's not estimating, it's knowing. But when it comes to God, God knows all including what we are going to do before we do it.
@@ThenamesConorand thats why its not freewill
@@austinrevis2217 well it is free will because we have choice... do you seriously not understand that? 😂
@@austinrevis2217 if it wasn't free will we wouldn't be able to do what we want, but we can, it's just God knows that we're gonna do before we do it, now if he stopped us from doing it, THEN it wouldn't be free will. Get it now?
How can it be free will when we have to follow in his foot steps.... and if we dont we get punish for it.
Exactly 😂
And yet, he made the serpent, knowing it would result in his creation being cursed...by himself
Still free will of the serpent 🐍
@@manuelugarte4029 Wow, awesome plan
Bro really let a snake bite an entire species with venom
@@snaptrap5558you wouldn't be here if the serpent didn't have free will 🤷♀️
free will is just God's excuse to kill something or someone not his own size (lesser size) that thinks freely
How free is free will when the web of fates has been read?
So, *We have "Free Will" because God says so?* _Brilliant_ Then I guess prophecies set by God could be wrong
There is no reason for testing us on Earth then
His tone it’s kinda arrogant
God knows every single possibilities of our choices made by our free wills.
Is it that difficult to understand?
And he also knows which possibility will be actualized. It's not difficult to understand, we understand omniscience and free will to be incompatible.
@@katamas832 Yeah, it seems like it is that difficult for some people.
Even your Google Assistant knows what you will do when you come back to your home after work. And you are saying, because of Google Assistant is capable of knowing what you will do ahead of time, you do not have a free will. Or, are you saying that you are predestined by Google Assistant to do such things?
If God only knew "actualized" possibility, you can say we do not have free will. Because we are dragged into only one possibility. But if God prepared gazillions of combinations of possibilities and let us decide one, there is a true free will.
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 We all have the same free will. There is no spectrum. You either have it or you don't. All we like sheep have gone astray, everyone has turned to their own way. That was our own choice. But we all also have a choice to come back, which was made possible by God's free gift of putting our sin on Jesus and punishing Him in our place.
@@juyeonglee1605 Google Assistant is able to accurately predict you, not know what you will do in advance with absolute certainity. You could always choose to not even go home. Not something you will do, but you have the option. Omniscience is infalliable, Google Assistant is not.
No, God can know all possibilities and also the actualized one. If he knows the actualized one with infalliable foreknowledge, that means we never had the option to do otherwise.
@@katamas832 Incorrect. I can observe what somebody does and my observation has absolutely no bearing on their decisions, yet I gained the knowledge of what they did. God's foreknowledge is the same. He stands at the end of tomorrow having observed what happened and getting that knowledge had no hindrance to the decisions made by the individual.
Human "free will" is not as free as we imagine. The wider we look and manage to perceive, the less we find true freedom.
Arthur Schopenhauer has stated: "Man can do what he wills, but he cannot will what he wills!"
If God knows all choices you'll make before you make them, you never had the freedom to choose differently because if you did choose differently, God already knew you'd make that choice and it was predestined to happen. No matter what decision you make, if God already knows you'll do it, you never had the freedom to make a different choice. Frank is so comprehensively wrong on this subject, it's actually hilarious.
So wrong on every count
@@hank-the-tank4146 Then explain why I'm wrong.
I mean... read the top comment. It's actually pretty easy, Frank is 100% correct. If I got in a time machine today and watched you make a decision tomorrow---say, the decision to eat waffles for breakfast---then came back to my time and did nothing to alter your life, I would know with absolute certainty that you are going to eat waffles for breakfast. You are now "predestined" to do that. But does me just seeing and knowing you're going to do it take away your free choice to do it? Of course not. Me knowing you'd eat waffles had nothing to do with you eating waffles---you would have done it whether I knew or not. So it is with God. It doesn't take away free will to say, "we can't do other than God knows." It only takes away free will when we say, "we can't do other than God *wills.*"
@Ellis Rhoades That's a comparison fallacy. You're comparing an individual seeing another individual do something through a time machine vice God, creating you to make that exact choice. If free will was that simple, predictions would remove everyone's free will. But that's not what a lot of us in the comment section are saying. We are saying, because God is all-knowing, he knows exactly what choices you'll make through your *entire life,* not just what food you'd eat for breakfast on a particular day. We're talking more than just minor events. It's all of those minor events and every major life event like who you'll marry, what your kids names will be, how and when your 3 year old child will die to cancer and how you'll react, what jobs you'll have, what cars you'll buy and how long you'll drive each, etc.
God, being all-knowing and all-powerful, created every person with a set path to follow by knowing the outcome of that path at creation. By knowing all outcomes and being the one who created the path in the first place allows zero deviation from the set path of his knowledge of outcomes. All this argument needs to be resolved is to show God is not all-powerful, show there are limitations in his omniscience, or show free will doesn't actually exist. If you don't resolve the contradictions through those 3 options, God either becomes contradictory, or free will doesn't exist. This continues forward and adds further complexity to the discussion the second we introduce omnibenevolence and the Euthyphro Dilemma.
@@trick7039 Hmm. Okay, but the waffle argument still stands for an entire life---or even for the entire universe. You don't *irrevocably cause* a choice by knowing the choice will be made. That's just not logical, no matter how many choices are made or how big the scale is.
As to your other argument, that God made the world in just such a way that He determined every outcome from the beginning, the problem with that is that it just goes back to the waffle problem. He could never make a universe in which He didn't know what would happen in it, because He is outside of time and all-knowing. But that doesn't mean that universe was *causally determined* from the beginning, especially given that when God did initially create, say, the stars, they *didn't have free will,* whereas Adam and Eve did.
I find it impossible to reconcile a deterministic God with 1 Corinthians 10:13: "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and He will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."
What is James talking about here? There *is no way of escape* in determinism. Every sin, just like every good deed, thought, action, and desire, is *causally determined* by God. By definition, He *can't*" provide a way of escape" because that would imply a *choice between the way of escape or the sin,* which would be free will. But, there you have it. Free will in the Bible.
If knowing someone’s future (or in this case everyone’s future) means you know what is going to happen in their life it doesn’t necessarily mean you made them do anything. It simply means you know. Which doesn’t contradict free will. God has the keys to the future but doesn’t have the keys to the decision’s we make. In other words we have free will. Why does that seem so hard for people to grasp. No one says He makes anyone do anything because if he did then we wouldn’t have freewill. So again where is the contradiction? I don’t understand why this so hard to grasp for those trying to figure it out. Nonetheless Jesus love you and God bless you all ❤️🙏🏽
Foreknowledge does not equal predeterminism.
Foreknowledge by itself doesn't. Absolute foreknowledge does. If it cannot happen in any other way, it is predetermined.
@@katamas832 Again, you need to expand on this because as it stands it's just a claim without support. With definitions, please, so we can know what you mean by "absolute foreknowledge" vs plain od "foreknowledge" and why this somehow turns into a cause rather than an observation.
@katamas I know I haven't replied to your other comment on a different thread, and I will, but I wanted to address this one.
First, I want to say thank you for being willing to have a conversation with me on the other thread. Second, I want to say that I did look into your mentioning of "absolute foreknowledge" and I found that to be something that doesn't exist. Third, I want to say that theologians as well as others struggle with foreknowledge and free will. Fourth, I want to say that foreknowledge doesn't demand that something happens. It's literally just a prior knowledge of something; it's not cause and effect. For example, knowing my kids have to get up for school in the morning doesn't make them wake up to get ready for school.
While this isn't directly related, I do want to say that if foreknowledge, or in your words, "absolute foreknowledge", is a thing, I'm not so sure subjective morality would be a thing. My reason is because to have subjective morality, you have to have a free will. If foreknowledge or "absolute foreknowledge" means that we don't have free will then there couldn't be subjective morality because it would be subject to whatever God wills.
Please try science. If God existed before the universe he existed before time was created, therefore, being outside of time, he must therefore have simultaneous access to all space time just like we have simultaneous access to all three dimensions. There is no 'pre' if you existed before the big bang.
@@stephenkeen6044 Knowledge is falliable, something humans have access to, absolute knowledge is infalliable, something an omniscient being has access to. It cannot be wrong. The future is already determined before it happens, since this being knows it already without any chance of being wrong. Hence, predetermined.
First of all, this topic seems very theoretical because it literally does not mention the concept of free will in the Bible. So by that standard, it's unbliblical. So one must wonder why some Christians are so beholden to the idea. Second, an idea that popped into my mind is that God has access to the data that was already recorded because who says the "beginning" was the FIRST beginning?
PLEASE READ THIS TO THE END MY FRIEND 🙏❤✝️😎🥰
God is sovereign which means the supreme ruler overall.
Heat is not only know what's going to happen but he also PRE-DESTINATED it.
Read Romans 8:29-30
God's CHOSEN ELECT were Chosen by God and GIVEN JESUS, BEFORE the
W🌎RLD BEGAN, according to the Scriptures. We need to die of our flesh daily, Matthew 16:24 So are we the ones who chose God? John 6:44 No, cause if a sinner is LOST IN SIN. How can ANYONE make a free will choice TO SAVE THEMSELVES ⁉️👎
THEY CAN'T AS FREE WILL CHOICE IS NOWHERE FOUND IN THE BIBLE.
In FACT Jesus spoke against it in 2 Peter 2:9 10 (the LOST is Self-willed) and in Titus 1:7-8 (the SAVED is NOT 🚫 Self-willed)
Also Jesus said in Matthew 7 21 23
Just cuz you say Lord Lord, DOES NOT 🚫 get you into the kingdom of heaven, BUT THOSE THAT DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. (Spiritual Obedience)
v. 22 And many will say unto me on that day (JUDGMENT DAY), Lord Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and in your name cast out devils 👿, AND DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS? (Works in the flesh) Romans 8 8
v. 23 And I (Jesus) Will profess unto them, depart from me, you that work iniquity, I NEVER EVER KNEW YOU.
I BELIEVE that Free Will choice is 100% HERESY, or False Teaching ACCORDING to the SCRIPTURES as a Real Christian is to do the WILL of GOD ALMIGHTY which is called OBEDIENCE.
Verses of B4 the W🌎rld Even Begin.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on HIS right hand (HIS SHEEP), Come, ye Blessed of MY FATHER, INHERIT THE KINGDOM PREPARED FOR YOU FROM THE FOUNDATION of the
W🌎RLD.
(Goats are on the left)
John 17:5-6 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE W🌎RLD WAS.
6 I have manifested (REVEALED) THY NAME UNTO THE MEN which God gave Jesus.
John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me,,, which thou hast given me: FOR THOU LOVEDST ME BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE
W🌎RLD.
Acts 3:21 of all things, WHICH GOD HAS SPOKEN BY THE MOUTH OF ALL HIS HOLY PROPHETS SINCE THE W🌎RLD BEGAN.
Ephesians 1:4-5 According as GOD HAS CHOSEN US IN JESUS BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE
W🌎RLD, that we should be holy and without blame before JESUS in GOD:
5 HAVING PRE-DESTINATED US UNTO THE ADOPTION OF CHILDREN BY JESUS CHRIST TO HIMSELF, ACCORDING TO THE GOOD PLEASURES OF HIS WILL.
Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE, BEING PRE-DESTINATED according to the purpose of HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNCIL OF HIS OWN WILL.
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, WHICH GOD ORDAINED BEFORE THE W🌎RLD UNTO OUR GLORY
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, BECAUSE GOD HATH FROM THE BEGINNING CHOSEN YOU TO SALVATION THROUGH SANCTIFICATION of the SPIRIT and BELIEF of the TRUTH
2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath SAVED US, AND CALLED US WITH AN HOLY CALLING, Not according to our works, (or FREE WILL CHOICE in the flesh)
BUT ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE, WHICH WAS GIVEN US IN CHRIST JESUS BEFORE THE
W🌎RLD BEGAN.
Titus 1:2 In HOPE of ETERNAL LIFE, which GOD, that cannot lie, PROMISED BEFORE THE
W🌎RLD BEGAN.
1st Peter 1:20 Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE
W🌎RLD, but was MANIFEST (OR REVEALED) IN THESE LAST TIMES FOR YOU.
The Cross, Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the EARTH 🌎 shall WORSHIP HIM, WHOSE NAMES ARE NOT WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB SLAIN (OR CRUCIFIED) FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE
W🌎RLD.
The Lost, Revelation 17:8 ,,,and they that dwell on the EARTH 🌎 shall wonder, WHOSE NAMES WERE NOT WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE W🌎RLD,,,,
Who will never chosen to be saved.
God is using the lost to bring this Lost W🌎RLD to an end, and to Earn Crowns to Glorify God our Heavenly WITH THE TRAILS WE GO THROUGH.
John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, TO THEM GAVE HE POWER TO BECOME SONS OF GOD, even to them that believe in HIS name:
13 Which were born, NOT 🚫 of blood, nor of the WILL OF THE FLESH, nor of the WILL OF MAN, but of GOD'S WILL.
John 8:36 IF,, the Son therefore shall MAKE YOU FREE, ye shall be free indeed.
John 8:43 Why don't you understand my speech? even because ye CANNOT HEAR MY WORD.
John 8:47 He that is of God hears God's words: ye therefore HEAR THEM NOT, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF GOD.
John 10:3-4 To him the porter (door keeper) opened; and THE SHEEP HEARS HIS VOICE: AND HE CALLETH HIS OWN SHEEP BY NAME, AND LEADETH THEM OUT.
4 And when he putteth forth HIS OWN SHEEP, he goes before them, and THE SHEEP FOLLOW HIM: FOR THEY KNOW HIS VOICE.
John 10:26-27 But ye believe not, because YE ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP, as I said unto you.
27 MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, and I KNOW THEM, AND THEY FOLLOW ME:
John 13:18 I SPEAK NOT OF YOU ALL: I KNOW WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN,,, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Speaking of Judas Iscariot.
John 14:17 Even the SPIRIT of TRUTH; WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: BUT YE KNOW HIM; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 15:4-5 Abide in me, and I in you. AS THE BRANCH CANNOT BEAR FRUIT OF ITSELF, EXCEPT IT ABIDE IN THE VINE; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same brings forth MUCH fruit: FOR WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING.
John 15:16 YE HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, BUT I HAVE CHOSEN YOU,,
15:19
19 If ye were of the world, the W🌎RLD would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, BUT I (Jesus) HAVE CHOSEN YOU OUT OF THE
W🌎RLD, therefore the world hates you.
John 17:2,,,THAT HE (Jesus) SHOULD GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO AS MANY AS THOU (God) HAS GIVEN HIM.
JOHN 17:6 I HAVE MANIFESTED OR REVEALED MY NAME UNTO THE MAN WHICH GOD GAVE TO ME OUT OF THE W🌎RLD.
John 17:9 I PRAY 🙏 not for the W🌎RLD but for them which God has given me,
John 17:11 ,,keep through the own name (Jesus) Those whom thou has given me that they may be one as we are.
John 18:37 EVERYONE THAT IS OF THE TRUTH HERE'S MY VOICE.
Revelation 3:20 I stand at the door (OF YOUR ❤) and knock, IF ANYONE HEARS MY (SPIRITUAL) VOICE, they will open the door,, ETC
Must I go on.
Its a contradiction
Humans have *some* free will:
"What father holding his little girl’s hand crossing a busy street would ever let it go? The more she pulls, the tighter he squeezes. There is no way she is going anywhere! Is God any different? The argument that a person can choose hell by rejecting God as a result of 'free' will is in effect saying a little girl has more strength than her dad. God has given man a 'measure' of free will, but certainly not to the degree that He would allow him or her to damn themselves forever in torment. Is God less of a parent than we are (Matt. 7:11)? We extend increasing freedom to our children as they mature. Too much too soon is disastrous. He knows just how much freedom we need for our development.
God, as Creator, is owner of all things (Psalm 2:8; Ezek. 18:4; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2), and that includes you and I. He has never relinquished that title. Only He has absolute 'free' will over His property. Should we be forever lost, He would be the loser and God is not a loser!
Many say hell is locked on the inside. But how? Christ has the keys! (Rev. 1:18).
Many believe God’s hands are tied; as much as He would like to keep us, He is unable. But, is our power to destroy His property really greater than His power to preserve or restore it? How 'free' and powerful are we? What role did we play in controlling our life experiences that have made us what we are? Will we deliberately choose what sufferings we will undergo in the future that inevitably will affect what we become? What intricacies of our reasoning processes, which determine our decisions, do we fully control?"
-- Gerry Beauchemin, _Hope Beyond Hell,_ 2010, pg. 38
I think we have to define what free will is because . I do believe we have a free will but it’s not outside the confines of God’s decree. The Bible is clear that no one seeks after God when left to our own choice. Before the fall Adam and Eve were truly free to choose between righteousness and unrighteousness. But after the fall we are left to freely choose between sin. God elects before we do anything good or bad whom He shows compassion and mercy to. Jacob He loved , Esau He hated, Romans 9. Our salvation is 100% an act of God. It’s not of our works, Ephesians 2:8-10. The absolute sovereignty of God is crucial in understanding soteriology amongst other biblical doctrine. I absolutely think Arminians are Christians but that theology weakens the power of God and His sovereignty by exalting man as a participant in God’s will. Make no mistake, we are 100% responsible for our sin. But we are 0% responsible for our salvation.
I am given to understand that it would be determinism if God is already aware of exactly what actions I'll practice from all the provided possiblities before the time is due, he cannot know what I'll do before i have done it because if I'm given a choice to act differently to what he anticipates then he must not know my future... therefore if he does, then my life was predestined and it implies i have no free will. His argument is flawed.
We actually will have free will in heaven. How do you think the Satan fell away? And yes Satan is not the devils name. The Satan means the deciever.
Theologians call this view molonism. It’s contradictory to passages like Ephesians 2:1-10, John 3:8, John 6:37-39.
He's not saying the god causes the future. He's just saying he's knows the out come just like I know the end of Harry Potter. Harry Potter isn't magically going to change the second time I read it(haha, magically, get it) just like if god knows whats going to happen tomorrow I'm not magically going to change the second time god looks at the universe.
Lets say could see into the future and I see myself playing chess in one hour. I KNOW that I am going to play chess and since it's the actual future what is saw, I can't do anything about it. Therefore I don't have free will.
Free will, as I see it, henges on souls existing. Aka magic. If I hit you, your body is going to release the same chemicals in the same amounts. How anger those chemicals make you is the same regardless of your “will”. And you will say/do the same things in response to that feeling no matter what you’d like to think. Input goes in, starts a reaction, output goes out.
So until you demonstrate magic (a soul, incase you didn’t have the mental faculties to remember the beginning of this comment.) exists
The “god it all knowing” rebuttal (to me) seems to only be half of it.
God made every aspect of the world in your view. Down to every atom in your nerves system. God actively affected events in history in your view. All while knowing how each act would play out. Making you and every thing leading up to you so it would play out in you having this asinine discussion.
I'm sorry doc, but the gentleman is correct. IF God knows what you will do, THEN you will not do otherwise and thereby falsify God's omniscience. Therefore what you will do was determined, and it was determined first BY GOD, Who alone existed "when", on ordinary orthodox Christian doctrine, He knew everything you would do. Yes, you freely do (determine, after God) what you want to do. In philosophy, that is called "Compatibilism". But, you were determined by God and His determination of your actions is consistent or "compatible" with your moral responsibility for what you do - because you freely did it (Natural Ability) because you freely wanted to do it (Moral Ability), and therefore are responsible AND determined. IOW, IF you believe God infallibly knows everything you will ever choose, and if you believe you WILL NOT (Moral IN-ability), not CAN NOT (Natural Ability) do otherwise - THEN you are a Calvinist by another name.
As Dr. James White often points out, "The only consistent (Synergist) is an Open Theist." Therefore, the only options available to you are divine determinism (Calvinism), consistent Synergism (Open Theism), or INCONSISTENT Synergism (irrationality). Choose wisely, doc, and honor Christ with your divinely determined free choice.
BTW, Molinism is not an option because it is theologically and philosophically absurd. In it, creatures who do not yet exist except in God's imagination DETERMINE God's Middle Knowledge of what they would do under every circumstance God might place them. This has God LEARNING from non-existent creatures what they would do. Now, if God doesn't learn from these non-existent creatures what they would do, THEN God determined what they would do, and therefore -Calvinism. Either God determined what they will do (Calvinism), or He LEARNED what they will do (Open Theism).
Love your apologetics. You get closer to Presuppositional Apologetics than any other Evidentialist apologist.
TL/DR
His glasses are screaming to return to 1985. We can't do anything to save his glasses. If Jesus was here he would turn his glasses into wine. You're welcome
No choice, no ✝️Love. God loves sincerely voluntarily. If a couple said to each other "i choose you not forced, but willingly.." people take pride, they seems to value sincerity, voluntary act of love❤. But when it comes to God they said He's wrong for letting them choose.... Make up your mind people... Did you really didn't see the value of voluntary love? 💕💓💗💖💝
Our willingness to love God is precious in God's eyes.
God wants to be chosen, people took pride in being chosen to be loved willingly not to forced others to love them....
2 Peter 3:9 (WEBM) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Just like everyone asking that question can't get it through their head, without Holy Spirit help, that just because God, being Omniscient, KNOWS the choices they'll have and decisions they'll make, before they do, does not prevent them from making those Free-Will decisions.
God, being Omniscient, Knows The Very End of All Things from The Very Beginning of All Things.
And a person coming to know just how powerful, consequential and the responsibility that comes with their Free-Will should set them on their heels or bring them to their knees. Because they'd then realize, hopefully, that God created All Mankind knowing that some, of Their Own Free-Will, will decide to Reject what He, God, Love Itself, is offering. AND them realizing, hopefully, God did it this Way because the Free-Will decision for a person to LOVE others or God, Who is LOVE, cannot be forced but MUST BE a Free-Will decision. ✝️🕊️
Free will is a lie. Predestined/elect don't even have this lie of "free will" to come to Yahuwah. 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:13 KJV. What his human family members have been granted of the many attributes of our creator is "freedom of choice". They both are not the same. Our will never changes anything. God's will is immutable and he will accomplish his purposes always. Stick with the word and not men's opinions (including my own) which mean absolutely nothing. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV. †
Religion needs free will to exist so that their heaven/hell reward/punishment theme works out. Yet it doesn't. If God knew the whole time, why the charade? Just assign us our end-state and . . . move on?
Anyway, if you remove the silliness of religion from the question, the answer is much easier (not perfect). Do you have free will? Does anything in this universe exempt itself from the cause-and-effect? Nah, but don't let it bother you. Even those of us to don't believe we have free will behave as if we have it.
That is what free will is!!! Free will doesn't mean we should hurt and kill!!! People read the King James Bible and come to JESUS!!!!!
Molinism at its best. Makes God subject to us instead of us being subject to him. He works all things according to the council of his will. Can’t do that if he simply created a world where he knows what will happen but doesn’t intervene
God knowing the future changes NOTHING in our lives nor is that ever a doctrinal foundation ever spoken about by Christ or any other OT or NT writer. Calvinism was invented in "ERROR" by misguided angry priests. John Calvin had a man burned alive at the stake for saying that baptizing babies was not taught in the Bible-which is true!
Btw, religious folks, free will can not exist and the creation would still be fricking great. Like, if determinism is true, then it means that the Kingdom of God will come, sooner or later.
So, you don't need to get all emotional trying to protect the idea of free will because letting go of it doesnt change anything.
(Btw this is not an argument against free will, although I believe free will doesn't exist. This is just for the relogious people to have something to think about)
James Watson, - This comment seems to keep disappearing from the thread on your posting. Here it is for the third time, please answer.
1, thanks for showing *your childishness* James, (or whoever you may happen to be) by resorting to insults as you usually do at some point in your conversations I've seen. You know you're the epitome of a hypocrite I would assume.
2, so what I see you saying now, contrary to your previous statement is, *you DON'T have free will* because of the Gospel of salvation of Jesus Christ. Is this correct?
3, you have not yet explained *HOW* your free will is null and void because of the Gospel of Salvation, *HOW SO?*
Free Will doesn’t exist for ppl that wants kids but can’t have kids. If God gives everyone Free Will, ppl that want kids should have the Free Will to have them. So the be fruitful and multiply doesn’t apply to them either.
How can such a smart man get this far without getting this right? It’s the tipped scale towards the world of Theo-philosophy instead of allowing the overwhelming weight of evidence in the scriptures to rip the chains off the scales. God is sovereign, autonomous ( in the absolute sense), and is the only one with the ability to complete the realization of free will that would necessarily mean He can create ex-nihilio. That is God can cause reality to be, both physically and meta simply from absolute nothingness. No man can ever achieve this to the degree that God does. So what do we do with man’s clear ability to choose? We identify what is left in light of the similarities to God. God can choose, and so can man. So we are left with choice. That’s it. That’s all we have been gifted.
“Choose you this day who you will serve” This passage alone kills the argument of free will as it reveals you will be a slave in either direction. That’s the hallmark of NOT having a will at all.
Yea that makes no sense. If God is authoring this universe, and knows everything, and also has a plan for your life……. “Free will” does not enter into that equation.
My choices can’t be “freely made” if a god has already determined the outcome.
I'm still trying to figure out how much free will exists honestly. We know predestination is true from ephesians one and in Roman's (I think its Roman's its where Paul talks about the clay speaking back to the potter as an example) but to an extent we see free will does exist. So the question is how much of what? What's the ratio? It's obvious it's against scripture to say we have 100% free will and also 100% predestination. Although I do feel like it's more predestination honestly.
I think these contradictions can both be true at the same time… this is almost the definition of the faith. God is all knowing and he is not limited by our physical realm. That means he isn’t limited to exist during time or in one plane at a certain time. He can exist in two places at once… would you deny that he can exist in two places at once? I wouldn’t. He created this whole universe (our physical laws that we are bound to). Can he exist in the future and before? Yes. Can he exist directly beside you and me at the same time? Yes. You already believed this. It’s not really that hard to contemplate but it’s so hard to believe it to be true. This is because the only thing we humans get to know is our universe and that universe has limits. Stop imaging God as in this universe. He exists elsewhere. Seek and ye shall find. The same can be said with Jesus and God. Jesus is God manifested into the flesh to pay for our sins. But Jesus says he is the lord, he also speaks to the father as if he isn’t the father. Both are true. Jesus is God and he can exist as the Lord in the flesh and the Lord in the heavens at the same time. He says “I am the Alpha and the Omega.” “Before Adam, I was.” He is the great I AM. Jesus is Lord and he will always be the Lord. He is not bound to matter, or time or even some sort of energy. Remember he is outside of where we are…
Whether God actively "causes" it is irrelevant. You cannot deviate from his knowledge that was gleaned from the beginning of the universe. You cannot ever do anythinf other than what he knows and therefore fundamentally cannot choose anything as everything simply acts according to God's design and knowledge. This precludes free will.
God's foreknowledge does NOT equal election in all moments and choices in our lives. The extreme Calvinists have never been able to explain to me how our free will, given to us by God, somehow violates His Sovereignty and His fore knowledge.
I understand gis method, but this will make that God plays with the multiple universe. Kinda killing Jesus sovereignity with one world
"He knows cause he has knowledge"
I thought he would correct himself, but he didn't 😅