How to PRICE your pottery.....or ANYTHING!!!!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ส.ค. 2024
- In this video we go through some thoughts about pricing! When you first start out establishing your price can be tricky, but after some experience and using the two methods in this video, pricing can become much less daunting!! Price anything from paintings, to pottery, to art of any kind!
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I have a degree in Business and I have to say that your explanation of supply and demand was easier to understand than the "real world" (totally unrelatable) models I learned in class! Thanks for sharing!
Interesting approaches. Some decades ago I had an antiquing business. I had the simple formula "I have to sell at 4 times my purchase". So for a 1 dollar item, I had to sell it at 4. $1 pays me back for that purchase, $1 pays my acquisition costs (this was when gas was 1/6th what it is now), $1 pays my display until sold costs and $1 is my profit.
Can you possibly do a video about how to wholesale, how to get your pottery sold in stores and what kind of financial negotiation is done? Imagine this is kindergarten because some of us who cannot or dont have the option to sell at markets or art events really would love this information!
I,d say these days online business , build your own website and go for it, with covid many businesses are popping up online now so join the crowd .👍
The thing that sold it and sealed the deal on me giving a thumbs up was the phrase "Boom, School."
haha, this made me lol:)
Very interesting, it's the first time that I see the subject of princing in a pottery video and I think it's a big deal for many of us, thank you !
Thanks John. I think the reality for most artists, doesn’t matter if they are ceramic artists, musicians, painters etc for most we do well to cover costs! If your art becomes popular then you may be able to make a wage out of it, or if really popular you may make some money. However for most people in the arts it is an expensive hobby. Other option is to do stuff that is popular, so for music be a cover band, painter paint the same painting over and over, or make pots/cups that sell. Then it becomes a job and possibly not why we got into it in the first place. For me it is more productive for me to work so I can make what I want to make when I want to, for who I want. If I get money great, if not then someone I want to have my pots, have my pots. Cheers.
As a business student I have to add a HUGE important factor. What is the rent for your studio, costs of equipment (like ciln), costs for electricity and glazes!! That is A LOT that you left out
sunk costs. these are built in the equations
I started watching your video's because I'm taking my first pottery class in ten years and you are super entertaining as well as informative. As a practicing artist I found this video to be one of your most educational on the channel. I think your background in business as well as your ability to explain thinks succinctly took one of the most challenging things about being any kind of creator, maker, artist, or crafts person and made it very easy to grasp. Thanks for all you are doing in this TH-cam space and I can't wait to go in to Mocha Monkey next time I'm visiting the Twin Cities.
Hi Jon, I love your explanation of supply and demand and your calculation is spot on for hourly rates. You did an awesome job explaining the basics. For the people taking it to the next level, I want to mention that it is important for potters to consider outside expenses if they decide to do this as a full time business. I am not talking about standard clay and glazes and kiln electricity or gas... I am talking about business expenses like advertising, internet, phone, electricity to heat or cool the studio (awesome that your going solar), studio or gallery space lease or rent, and supporting supplies. If you don't consider these things, then your hourly rate will not cover the business expenses. ( I found out the hard way...) Anyway, thanks for all of your awesome videos and congrats on the remodel kickstarter!
I would add a third method- what the competition is charging.
Mary Nelson prices of substitutes/compliments (aka what other firms charge for similar items/items that go well with a product) are determinants for the demand curve, so in a way he already included it in the supply/demand method! :-)
Yes, we definitely have to do that here in rural Maine.
I would not do that. Mainly, you don't know what competition spends on materials. Does competition make their own glazes, or use commercial? Do they work out of a communal studio and pay $60+ for a bag of clay? Or do they buy wholesale? Is the quality of your work equal to theirs? So many factors go into that. It's a good way to figure out a ballpark number, but I know potters who keep their costs low using methods that I am just not equipped to handle (making glazes, industrial size kilns, etc.).
The sad fact to is a lot of stuff these days is mass produced in factories mugs , cups etc and sell really cheap , that is very hard to compete with when buyers tell you they can buy mugs etc elsewhere cheaper, so in a rock and a hard place on pricing as an hourly rate charge goes out the window when there making loads with lots of labour factory workers and selling dirt cheap especially imported stuff from places like China , just my 2 cents worth , makes it hard is all I’m saying.
Generally a solid video, supply and demand is generally a macro econ issue and there are some issues with using it on selling your pottery, which is that it is more for hand thrown mugs in general rather then your personal mugs, and in this way you will not have much of an impact on the demand. But because this stuff is often sold locally or in person, you can strongly effect your personal demand, but if you are selling in person, that will often effect your personal hour and that will need to be accounted for in your hourly wages. Ei, Lets say you are doing pottery and pottery sales full time. You can make a mug, thrown, trimmed, fired, glazed and fired again at a rate of 2 per hour on average. That is 16 mugs per day, but to sell those mugs you need to spend 4 hours at a sales event, or you need to add in time spending taking pics and posting on a website, plus the fees you pay, plus the shipping cost if you are offering "free shipping". But with the event sales, you go from 2 per hour to make to 45 mins per piece sold. If you are working at $30 per hour that is going from $15 per mug to $22.50 per mugs before costs.
And do not limited costs to just clay, you are either paying for studio time and firing costs or you own that stuff, which is an investment. If you are working out of someone else's studio, it is a bit easier because you see the pricing. Lets say you pay $160 per month of studio time and $5 for firing per mug (for both firing), this adds $40 per week and $5 per mug. The month cost with that rate of throwing is reasonable minimal, at about $0.75 each, but the $5 per mug is big. Though you should take less time per mug because you aren't loading and unloading the kiln, so maybe 5 mins less per mug. For it is 40 min per mug (sold), which is $20 even at $30/hour, but the cost per mug is $9.75 ($2 for clay). So, you cost is $29.75. From the other side, you have your own studio. Lets say you spend $60K for everything you need for your own backyard studio, if you invested that else where, you would expect at least a 5% ROI (return) per year, which is $3K per year and there is likely at least another $3K in repairs and additional work in owning a backyard studio, if you are working with it full time. So, $6K per year in costs for your studio, which is $500/month or $125 per week. There is also electrical costs with a kiln of about $20 for a large kiln for both. And that can fire 30-40 mugs, I believe, so let us say you make and fire 64 mugs per week (16 per day x 4 days, plus a day for sales). Now we have $125 for the studio, $40 for firing costs and 45 mins per mug, but $2 per for clay and glaze. That is $22.50 per mugs for time, plus ~$4.60 for costs, for $27.10 per mug.
I think the better use for the "hourly rate method" is to work backwards. Ei, I can sell my mugs for $24/mug, and the costs is $9 at a per mug rate, plus $40 per week. What do I need to do to earn a living doing this? So, here you can look that you are earning ~$15 per piece, if you want earn $30 per hour, you will need to make and sell two per hour. So, if you can train to work faster, at the same quality, you can improve your hourly rate. Can you wedge and pre 30lbs of clay, and then throw 20 good mugs in 2 hours? Then trim all 20 in an hour, then make and attach 20 handles in an hour? Then glaze them all in an hour? If so, you can make 4 per hour, but then there is selling them. Can you sell them at 4 per hour? Then it is a total of 10 hours for 20 mugs, and you have $30/hour. But that is no joke on all those times. Really, you would want to double the loads, throwing 40 in 4 hours, because prep and clean up would take 30 mins together, and maybe 35 when you double it. But here you have about 5 mins per mug thrown, 3 mins to trim per mug, 3 mins to make and attach a handle and then sell a mug ever 15 mins.
Selling is often massively over looked. John has done well with a good connection with a coffee shop and a good youtube/social media, so he seems to have no problem selling every piece he makes. Most potteries will spend a lot more time or money on selling there pieces. If you are luck enough to find somewhere to sell your stuff, they will often ask for 1/3 or more for the final cost of the piece, 1/2 is not uncommon. So, you want to sell your stuff to a shop, the shop will sell it for $26, but will only buy if from you (in mass) for $13 each. Here, you really have an issue with the cost of not having your own studio because after then $9, it leaves you with $4, vs your own studio's cost of $4.60, leaving you with $8.40. $10.40 without sales time while making 20 mugs at 5 hours, you are earning a lot ($33.6/hour), but at $4 it is just $16/hour for some really hard work.
Awesome video as always. Two great methods to price work! I've only started making pottery this year but I was very specific with glaze combos which helps with people being interested in my peices. I went to my first fair with 24 peices at $10 a peices and left with 4 peices. The main thing everyone said was they loved my glazes. So now I'm working on bigger, lighter, practical peices and I know I'll be able to see them for more! These methods will be very useful in getting the right cost. Thank you
Awesome way to go! Selling 20 pieces is amazing, keep it up!
Hey Jon, whenever you have time i think a video of you going deeper into the cost of everything would also be nice to see. Things such as tools, wheels, clay, colors, ect. Thank you so very much !
Hi Jon! Great job explaining the methods. I was wondering how you deal with customers possibly complaining about "You used to sell these for $10, now I have to pay $24. How come? That's stupid." I have a perpetual guilty conscience and feel terrible if there is a complaint. Constructive criticism is helpful, but nonsensical complaints are tough to take.
That's a great question, there was about a 7 year gap between 10 dollar mugs and 24 dollar mugs. So I would say they weren't the same, the mugs I sell now for 18-28.00 are far far far superior to the ones I sold for 10.00. So that's part of it, you have to take the past time and experience you have into the craft as well.
as far as complaints go, I dont get too many about my prices, if people think it's too much then they don't buy, if I stop selling then I lower my prices ....supply and demand at its best;)
Love the bit where you're like...if you didn't understand, try watching the video again haha! This is great and you made it very clear and easy to understand. Will definitely refer back to this in the future :D
I have a hard time understanding supply and demand and I actually almost understood that. first time I really almost got it. Just want you to know you're better at teaching then you think you are. You just keep doing you. I love the way you speak. Just being yourself
I feel that there is another component to take into consideration. I did computer graphic landscape designs for a living, now retired, I am a jewelry maker and a weaver. I believe that what you believe your self-worth to be (i.e., how much schooling, how much experience, etc.) should also come into play. Just like your cherico fellow who charges what, $165 per mug, has figured out. Charge the customer for what you've learned and what you percieve your self-worth to be. The cost of your education as well as the many hours of trial and error (including the supplies used and probably destroyed therein) need to be brought into the equation. Why else would Jackson Pollock charge thousands of dollars for a paint splat painting? Because he believes his time to be worth it.
There are also those consumers who believe that if it's pricey, it's worth more. So never underestimate your worth. You can always lower your prices if something doesn't sell well. It's harder to raise your prices once a standard has been set.
I really wish this went into more detail. The general ideas are reasonable but it is limited to an econ 101 scale. The most extreme is in the costs. In economics this would be the cost of good, or COG, but this is only one part of the costs. The clay cost is negotiable, at ~$1 per lb on the reasonable high end and when throwing mugs, you might get 2 to 4 mugs per pound. But then there is the studio time, trimming time, firing cost, firing time. A reasonable good pottery can throw 10 reasonable good mug in an hour and the clay cost is ~$4, getting paid $30 per hour for your throwing means you should charge $3.4 per mug... best deal ever for hand thrown mugs!!!... Why don't people price this way... because it ignores a HUGE amount of the cost. Either you own your own studio or you pay for time, lets say that is $10 per hour. Then there is trimming and putting on a handle, which at least doubles your time. Here we have gone from 10 per hour to 5 per hour and the hourly rate from $30 to $40. We have already increase the cost from $3.4 per mug $8.40. Then there is firing time and cost. Firing cost is not much, >$10 per normal kiln, but it is the loading and unloading time which is the cost. Let use say it is 30 mugs that cost $20 to fire twice, and plus 2 hour to load and unload twice. That adds $2.67 per mug, giving you a cost of just over $11 per mug. Honestly, $12 per mug is still a GREAT price for a hand thrown and painted mug... but now you need to sell it. The modern internet, as it is, expects shipping to be "free", but shipping is NEVER free, so add that to your price. Shipping might cost you $12 and take 30 mins if you are only shipping one or two per day, so add another $15. There is another 15-20% for sites like esty, not "hating" on them, just noting their costs. So, thrown 10 reasonable good mug in an hour seems great, but by the time you trim, fire, glaze, fire and sell, the price seem high and the margins are low.
well explained for a girl who needs math explained a couple of time - ha! potterysales101- thanks for thinking of us with all things pottery.
Hey John this is great. I haven’t gotten to really selling my pots outside of friends and family. Just enjoying the journey. Thanks for making this video.
2:31 plus cost of materials+ time inside the kiln + time glazing + time inside the kiln+ (time drying between each step) + electric bill = price per piece
Jon that was very clear and it looks as if my sales are priced quite well. Thank you.
Thanks tons for this info! It's more helpful than any other source for pricing. I return over and over as things change.
Jon, really enjoyed the video, even though it doesn't apply to me as a hobby potter.
Michelle Bertok mentioned the other costs which can be quite important to track for folks wanting to use the hourly rate calculation.
As I mentioned on Facebook I think that picture would make a great poster for potters who feel the general public may not appreciate the time involved in making stuff.
Thanks for sharing.
Very easy to understand for the mathematically challenged. And the cost of materials can include the amount of electricity required to power the kiln, but that's going to take more math!😱
While I love cherrico pottery, your pottery is sooo much more vibrant. I truly believe your pottery can be sold higher than what your prices show in your video. Just my opinion. Facebook live could be your best friend. I'd watch every time and buy your product.
I love Joel as well, he has been a big inspiration for me in my pottery business! Thanks for the opinion, I did do facebook live for a while but found that TH-cam better fit me :). I may start going live on the youtube tho!
Great help - kind and good!
Hi Jonh, thanks for all your videos they are really stimulating !! In this one you talked about the cost of material. In this video you took the example of the price of the clay, but I guess you also have to include the price of the glaze, the kiln time, etc. ?? Thanks for your response ! Sorry for my english i'm french ;-)
Currently I do not believe that my pottery skills are good enough to sell for a profit. I didn't go to school or anything for it and I have been learning the skills as I go. I am just selling locally what I make to purchase more supplies. That said I think that by the spring of 2021 I should be where I want to be with quality and I would love to start selling and get this going as a proper business.
Starting my own business ,, crocheting , appreciate the run down .
You're awesome! I'm going to binge watch your videos this weekend. LOL true story
Thanks Jon... hope your still making. cheers
Thanks for this video art student in aus here and this is one thing that has been on my mind for a while 👌👌✌
Jon this is so good!!! I use both and it works out to a decent hourly rate 🤣
Thanks !!
I do time to create + cost of materials x 3.... or 5 depending on the item and how people value it
You are brilliant, I feel like I have been doing this for a while, so, I'm good! Thanks
The problem with your method of determining price (other than S&D, which won't really apply to most creatives) is that it just covers basic costs. This seriously limits your ability to grow your business, and also leaves you no room to get sick or have vacations. So that price is the BARE MINIMUM that you can 'break even' at (your cost of living is part of your costs of production in this sense). You also have to take into account you costs of selling (commission to a gallery, fees on PayPal/Ebay/Etsy/Stripe, postage and packaging, etc) and add enough to the price to cover those. You then need to ADD a percentage to cover having time off for sickness and vacation (otherwise if you aren't working 365 days a year you're not earning your target wage). Finally, you need to add a percentage as a profit margin. The reason for this is quite simple. If you become tso popular you could no longer do everything yourself you'd never be able to take on any help, or if you had to retire due to ill health, or something, your income would just stop. If you incorporate a profit margin, you would be able to either A. hire someone to help out or manage the production (or other tasks you no longer have time for) or B. Sell your whole business as a profitable going concern (the profit margin means the buyer can hire someone to make the items, and still garner a profit from their investment). It's also FAR easier to drop prices than raise them, so don't start at rock bottom on pricing or you will have a miserable time trying to make a decent living long term.
I would also add - cost of glaze to cost of materials. Glaze is expensiveeeee. And the cost of firing, if you pay for the kiln firing.
should i consider dry time and fired time and cooling time and firing the glaze time in the price of my pottery?
Great informative video, love your stuff!
In HRM for Cost of Goods should also have your overhead: portions of your shop cost (like you know how much it costs for your equipment and run your shop per hour), accounting costs, other support staff (like admin or web site management or social media support). Otherwise you're only covering your personal time and the cost of clay/slips/glazes, and nothing for your overhead. All sorts of overhead costs of your business should go into you figuring out your Cost of Gaterials not just the material to make a unit. It will help you not loose money on each unit.
Pretty good video ! Nice explained, i'm french and i understood everything (Yes my english isn't very good)
I LOVE IT! I LOVE IT! I LOVE IT!
THANK YOU SOME MUCH, THIS IS WHAT I NEEDED
In "producing" in your first explanation, I assume you mean fully fired and everything?
thanks Jon this is very helpful
super helpful! THANK YOU
electricity ?
yes sir. thank you
Hey John! Love your channel! What about cost of glazes and kiln enrgy costs?
sounds great!
Very useful thank you! God knows how the pandemic will affect the ability of artists and craftspeople to sell? I guess there is always going to be people who can afford to buy handmade things but it will just get a lot smaller for a couple of years.
There's the taxes that one has to pay when working indipendently... that is, in Italy e.g. it's around 80% of what you earn so you have to count that as well, sadly enough
This is great! Thank you so much!
Was just going through this. Your Cost of material you said was 2 to 3 dollars a mug for clay. the 2 to 3 dollars you used was for one mug. So for 20 units the cost of materials would be 40 to 60 dollars? Am I wrong? So 15.00 plus 20 or 30 com?
I entered a mug in a juried show. Entry was $30. The gallery took half of the selling price. I needed to make something off it too.
So the absolute minimum I could price my mug had to cover $30 plus 50% of the selling price. What’s the absolute least I want to make on this mug if I were selling it directly to the buyer? Yikes - this is math!
If the selling price is $40 and the gallery takes half, I get $20. Subtract the $30 entry fee. Fortunately, the gallery is nearby so I didn’t have to ship it. But I’m still short $10.
At $60, I get $30 and break even.
$80, I get $40 and make $10 profit. I don’t want to overprice it though because then no one buys it, I’m out $30 and I still have my mug. But would anyone pay $80 for a mug?
My mug was accepted, which is a big deal because there were mugs from all over the country and the show isn’t that big, 50 or 60 mugs maybe out of around 300. And it sold before the opening! Plus the local newspaper used my mug in their announcement, only my mug!
Happy Dance! Mostly for the recognition because I didn’t make much $ 🙁
I was wondering if you know how to price pots for wholesale. I was asked about making a bunch of pots on a continual basis and they wanted to know about wholesale pricing. How in the world do you price things for wholesale so that we both can make money on my pots.
So where would you recommend selling, I’m currently a full time student but I create a lot of fairly high quality large vessels and bowls but I don’t know where to sell them
Poshmark, Mercari, ebay, etsy, Amazon, local shops...
When you consider cost of materials any thoughts on including the glaze cost and/or cost to run the kiln in the equation? (maybe it's not enough to add it?)
Yeah overall fixed costs of running studio isn't something I really broke down. when you get 40-50 mugs in a kiln it breaks down to pretty little though...obviously lots of personal factors go in to pricing as well!
if you fill the kilns very full and strategically, the cost per piece shouldn't be too much...
When I do this like Jon I do add in ALL expenses. I take a bisque mug weight it. Then I glaze it, let it dry , then weigh it again. that gives me the cost of the glazed use in grams. Then I break down those grams by dividing it by the contents of the recipe. It is very small but if you are buying glaze materials for mixing yourself or buying commercial glazes they can be very expensive. I fire gas so I know how much gas I use per load on average. A good business owner tries to drive out all loss no matter how large or small. When I do I can pass that on to my customers!
Creek Road Pottery LLC. Wow that's amazing thanks for sharing!!!
Where is the cost of electricity for firing, cost of replacement of tools (wear and tear), glazes etc etc..
my firing costs are way higher than the materials so I have to add that into the material costs
Hi Do you have any other pricing videos or other Recommendations...
How would you include kiln rental into your product price?
What about shipping?! Do you price that out separately?
What about the price of access to a studio?
With all due respect homie you need to perform a lagrangian to find profit maximizing quantity of pottery to produce
COM is for the one piece or for all the pieces??
Ure perfect thank u somuch
What about cost of glaze,underglaze and gallery fees?
Pat Taylor Cost of glaze/clay/underglaze etc would all be COM cost of materials. And yes there are many pricing factors not included in this video as economics of pricing is complex and everyone's situation is unique. These are just some basic things to think about!
How is it this video took two years to appear in my feed? Anyway…I’m not sure ‘supply/demand’ is a useful concept to apply here, since all ‘art’ purchases are discretionary, i.e., no-one actually NEEDS to buy our ware. Pricing our ware honestly, not counting time spent twiddling your thumbs waiting for the kiln to cool or paint to dry, and not overcharging based on other ephemera - like who you apprenticed with, would be the best place to start. We are all buying materials, equipment, space, energy - these are all costs that can be easily seen and counted and parsed in order to come up with the cost to make a single item. You won’t make any money, and will end up in the poorhouse, if you sell your ware for that price; so then you work out a formula that allows you a reasonable weekly, monthly or yearly income, and work back from there. That’s your wholesale price - double that for retail, and if it looks frightening then you probably have an unrealistic sense of your own worth as an artist-craftsperson in this era of NFTs…or you just live in the wrong town.
Of course, having good prices on your ware means nothing if the customers prefer the look of the boat-anchor-ware in the next booth; and some are put off either by the salesman act…or the lack of it. Just remember, most of your customers are convinced they can easily do what you can do, and are comparing your prices to the last thing they bought on Amazon or at Target…or they’re saving their cash for the food-booth at the fair. Good luck out there, and don’t knock having a day-job.
If you didn't get it, rewatch this vid XD
"unless its a really sweet mug..."
Pause.
(tries to visualize what a $700 mug would look like)
"so if you want to sell for more, just make less." it doesnt work like that but thx.
lol jk Jon
Ah this explains how and why you sell your mugs at the price you're selling them for, it's out of my price range for a mug nor can I justify buying a single mug for the current price
The supply and demand graphics again... this is why I dropped business school please stop
Helpful ❤🫶🏽