Symbols and Symbolism in the Wars of the Roses

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ย. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 93

  • @YorkieKDS
    @YorkieKDS 7 ปีที่แล้ว +62

    "Me Lie Loyaulte" translates to "Loyalty binds me" - Richard III Motto.

    • @historywithhilbert
      @historywithhilbert  7 ปีที่แล้ว +11

      Awesome! Thanks for clarifying that for me :)!
      I'm going to make a follow-up and add in some of these great comments with more information on what I said in the video :D

    • @g.m.9180
      @g.m.9180 7 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      The motto only makes sense if you read it left to right : « Loyaulté me lie » = « loyalty binds me » ; perfectly acceptable in modern French except « loyaulté » becomes « loyauté » in a prime example of English/French divergence

    • @kerryl7455
      @kerryl7455 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      anglo-norman?

    • @balthiersgirl2658
      @balthiersgirl2658 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      The true king of England

    • @bnipmnaa
      @bnipmnaa 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      Certainly more likely than "Loyal to my Bed", lol

  • @jasonl6130
    @jasonl6130 7 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Ich dien was the personal words of Sir John of Bohemia, who was killed during the battle of Crecy while fighting for the French. Edward, the black prince, adopted John's crest of three white feathers and the words "ich dien." Today, the symbol still represents the prince of Wales, which Edward was at the time.

  • @cennethadameveson3715
    @cennethadameveson3715 7 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    Shakespeare used the English homophone sun and son to give the pun loving Elizabethans the line " ..winter of discontent made glorious summer by that son/sun of York.

  • @johannvelasquez9978
    @johannvelasquez9978 7 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    "ich dien" was also the motto of the Black Prince, Edward of Woodstock.
    the Vere house was a house with a history with a very long background. They where in the battle of falkirk, agincourt and some of theirs were members of the order of the garter.
    great video, seeing you from latin america.

    • @historywithhilbert
      @historywithhilbert  7 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Thanks for this great extra information! I think I'll make a follow-up video with all of these extra bits my subscribblers have contributed :)
      The De Vere's were a fabulously interesting family, one of the play-makers for medieval England as were the Percys, Nevilles and Beauforts.
      Thanks for watching my videos Johann, gracias!

  • @zyankali5049
    @zyankali5049 7 ปีที่แล้ว +27

    Johann the blind of bohemia had ich dien on his flag.he died at crecy and when Edward the black Prince found Johanns body on the battlefield he was so impressed by Johanns bravery he put ich dien on his flag.maybe Edward iv. got it from the black Prince

    • @historywithhilbert
      @historywithhilbert  7 ปีที่แล้ว +7

      He was the one who had ostrich feathers as a standard was he not? Which is why it's still the symbol of the Prince of Wales because of Edward the Black Prince in the 14th century as well. Thanks for this brilliant extra info, I'll include it in a little follow-up video :)

    • @zyankali5049
      @zyankali5049 7 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      History With Hilbert glad to help:D

    • @johannvelasquez9978
      @johannvelasquez9978 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Yes, but that was his "peace" coat of arms. His real coat of arms was this:
      upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Coat_of_Arms_of_the_Prince_of_Wales_%28France_ancient%29.svg
      :)

    • @williamcooke5627
      @williamcooke5627 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      That's right.

  • @mykulpierce
    @mykulpierce 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    The Percy also had a badge they held in common between main and cadet branches. It was a silver crescent on black and red with a gold fetterlock (two triangle manacles connected in the middle) . Percy family used this badge even prior to the Jocelyn Du Luven male line. Not sure if the modern Smithson line does as well.

    • @mykulpierce
      @mykulpierce 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      There was quite the Exodus of Percys from England to the American colonies. There seems to be a number of debates connecting to a cadet branch, but based on my own research I am compelled to agree with the 19th century genealogists that recorded these connections having retraced his research path. Even to the point of discovery how Percy became Piers, Pierce, Pearce mainly due to the pronunciation of the name Percy given a somewhat french accent. There is a one armed merchant named Peter Percy buried in Northumberland whose name was pronounced peirse peirsee. Solidifying the Pierce / Percy names to the adoption of the Christan name Peter. Taken on by the founding Saxon of the line as well as taking on the characteristics of the Salian Frankish line of Jocelyn Du Luven.

  • @valmarsiglia
    @valmarsiglia 6 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    The legend of Ich Dien is that it was the motto of King John of Bohemia (also known as John the Blind -- that couldn't have helped in battle), killed in the Battle of Crecy. After the battle, Edward (the Black Prince) seeing the body of the slain king, adopted his banner and motto in his honor. Trouble is, there's no proof of John ever having used that motto. The other theory is that it's a corruption of Welsh "eich dyn" (your man), a tribute to the Welsh longbowmen who proved so decisive in several battle in the Hundred Years' War. He was after all the Prince of Wales. However, again, there's no proof for this.

  • @williamcooke5627
    @williamcooke5627 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    The famous scene in Shakespeare's Henry Vi depicts the supposed origin of the two badges. A group of nobles were walking in the Temple garden in London (which still exists; I've been there) and began to quarrel over the rights of the houses of York and Lancaster. The Yorkists plucked white roses from the bushes and wore them as party badges, and the Lancastrians did the same with red ones. They did not 'bash' each other with the roses, as the Victorian painting might suggest.

    • @williamcooke5627
      @williamcooke5627 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      The story was certainly current in London in Shakespeare's time, but modern historians doubt it for lack of contemporary evidence.

    • @historywithhilbert
      @historywithhilbert  7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Yes fair enough that was a bit of an over exaggeration but I doubt this scene has any basis in an actual event because the badges were already symbols of the two houses before 1455 as you say in your next comment :)

  • @seanjones2524
    @seanjones2524 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    The colour of the roses by no means dictated which house somebody supported. Roses of differing colours began to be adopted into heraldry and personal standards in the 14th Century, thus the colours did not signify a person's allegiance in the mid- to late-15th Century. William Carey was a Lancastrian supporter who used the white rose on his heraldry, and a few of the longstanding Yorkist Neville's used red roses. In actual fact, Edward also used the red rose - the Ghent manuscript that we see in the video showing the red rose actually signifies the Yorkist army, not the Lancastrian, as the same manuscript shows an image of Tewkesbury that clearly shows the red rose being carried by the Yorkist army.

  • @heathermcfarlane6164
    @heathermcfarlane6164 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I enjoyed this a lot! and I love your approach!!!

  • @weltgeist2604
    @weltgeist2604 7 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    Vexillology with Hilbert. Good topic doe.

  • @aliciahowell9617
    @aliciahowell9617 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    The white greyhound was a Beaufort symbol that Henry VII & VIII heavy used to remind his public of his Beaufort blood.

  • @billprince9041
    @billprince9041 ปีที่แล้ว

    Fascinating video, thanks for sharing.

  • @TryChillBalloo
    @TryChillBalloo 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    really informative! could you make videos about the burgundian wars symbols, banners and company organizations?
    would be awesome!

  • @annkelly0072
    @annkelly0072 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

    "Loyaulté me lie" was Richard III's motto, which translates to "Loyalty binds me." Quite an ironic motto.

  • @shwaig1
    @shwaig1 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I always liked how the Yorkists liked to poke a little fun at the old Roman name Eboricum with their white boar.

  • @valentinusaurelius2259
    @valentinusaurelius2259 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Loyalty binds me, it says.

  • @JCResDoc94
    @JCResDoc94 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    3:48 Heraldry of the House of Yugoda Sparcharger

    • @aymarafan7669
      @aymarafan7669 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      What is that?

    • @JCResDoc94
      @JCResDoc94 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      oh, it looks like a bird powered cell phone charger. dw, it took me 10mins to work out wtf i was talking about too! that was cray. @@aymarafan7669

  • @lvd8122
    @lvd8122 7 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Did anybody else notice, that the Tudor portcullis is the same has house yronwood's from GoT/Asoiaf?

    • @kyrgyzjeff4550
      @kyrgyzjeff4550 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      Isenskjold, Yeah that’s definitely where Martin got the idea from. Also you have the name Warbeck that stands out in the War of the Roses, which more then likely where he got “ Tarbeck” from. And another interesting thing to point out is Spain during when it was a caliphate under Moorish control, was called Al-Andalus, with the setting of Dorne, it most likely that it is based off of Spain and Morroco, and then you have Andals which were the second wave of people that come to Westeros. Also House Yronwood, for the “Yron” Throne! Tehe! And another things is that the Targaryen Dragon(s) to be inspired by the dragon of Cadwallder on the Welsh (Cymraeg) banner.

  • @upandawaygames
    @upandawaygames 7 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Is there a video that walks through all the different symbols of the British kings?

    • @taffyducks544
      @taffyducks544 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Rick Heli so, after 1707!? Before then the only British Kings date from the dark ages, with the petty Welsh kingdoms. The Welsh are Romano/Trojans Britons, and the English are Saxon/Scythian.

    • @upandawaygames
      @upandawaygames 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      For example, the Richard II's symbol was a white hart.

  • @desGsicht
    @desGsicht 7 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Didn't the Welsh Dragon also link back to the Draco Banner that the Roman Cavaliere troops used (and later Franks and other Germanic People)?
    The boar standard is truly amazing, and to the boring Modern Flags we Austrians are a little responsible for that too I fear.

    • @historywithhilbert
      @historywithhilbert  7 ปีที่แล้ว

      I can't say I've ever heard of a connection between the Welsh dragon and the dragon used by the Roman Cavaliers and other Germanic peoples but that's not at all to say there wasn't a connection there. It'd be very interesting to look into whether they were indeed related :)
      I know I love it! There's a website dedicated to historic flags, so I am slightly tempted to buy such a flag in case I were to ever make a Wars of the Roses on-site video ;)

    • @desGsicht
      @desGsicht 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I heard the connection between the Draco and the Welsh Dragon first at a 3 Century reenactment event this summer in Carnuntum and the German Wikipedia Page states it too but I haven't checked other sources so it might not be true at all.
      They said that the People in Britain kept using the Draco Standard after the Romans, there are also theories that link the Dragon that Sigfried/Sigurd killed to the victory of Arminius over Rome. But that is very speculative and can nothing can really be proven in that direction.
      Cadwaladr's use of the red dragon could of course be in that tradition of using the Draco if that link was real.

    • @historywithhilbert
      @historywithhilbert  7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Awesome, thanks for telling me about this so I could make my follow up video including this information :)!

    • @taffyducks544
      @taffyducks544 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      History With Hilbert Arthurs battle standard was a golden dragon on a white background. It directly comes from the Romans! Because the real Arthur (Arthwys) was a Romano - Briton.

  • @calculusaffair
    @calculusaffair 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hi, just curious; what's with the little yellow antler-squiggle thing at the end of Richard III's flag? (Comes up at 12:11). Great video too by the way!

  • @theotterguy
    @theotterguy 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you,very informative video.

  • @kik8168
    @kik8168 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    My family the Booths standard had three boars as well i believe it is a old anglo saxon symbol

  • @jardon8636
    @jardon8636 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    the reason is Magret of york was duchess of burgundy...the sister of Richard III, Edward IV and financer of warkbeck,simnel and any other yorkist pretender...
    Brittany was the natural home of henry vii ap tewdar*tudor...
    being he was welsh in exile with his uncle jasper, their comofort was provided for, the by the bretons and their royal family...
    like the cornish....bretons, speak a simmilar enough -celtic-brythonic language too the welsh.... any time in the future where brittany needed assitance- henry VII would provide it, the only complication was france & burgundy...

  • @DivinityZX
    @DivinityZX 7 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    The links in the description don't work for me. Does anybody know where those clips are from?

    • @historywithhilbert
      @historywithhilbert  7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Hi sorry, the clips are from the White Queen, you can find it here:
      th-cam.com/video/OI_JgNyqdOQ/w-d-xo.html
      and also from the BBC's Hollow Crown which can be found here:
      th-cam.com/video/qGJf-bVNxpY/w-d-xo.html

  • @NikhileshSurve
    @NikhileshSurve 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Anyone who follows Cricket very closely (or at least watches or follows the _County Cricket_ or the _Roses Match)_ will be able to identify the two roses as the _Red Rose_ of the _Lancashire CCC_ & the _White Rose_ of the _Yorkshire CCC_ as they're their emblems except the Yorkshire CCC's emblem isn't a straight forward White Rose but a pair of white gloves held together that looks like a White flower. They should instead have it in a simple manner as the Lancashire CCC does.

  • @stefanatliorvaldsson3563
    @stefanatliorvaldsson3563 7 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    great video

    • @stefanatliorvaldsson3563
      @stefanatliorvaldsson3563 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      why is the flag of isle of man so weird

    • @historywithhilbert
      @historywithhilbert  7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Thank you thank you :)
      Because you aren't a real mann unless you have 3 legs :D?

  • @2serveand2protect
    @2serveand2protect 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    "...me lie loyaulté" - you can also translate it as my "law" or my "rule" (in the sense: "a rule of life") (equals) "loyalty"...

  • @JMWxx
    @JMWxx 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    It was interesting. Can I ask, do you do this as a hobby or do you do some form of history as your career? I wish they had cameras (of today's quality, not having to sit in the same spot for an hour lol) back throughout all stages of history. Especially to see what their Crown Jewels and other jewellery looked like. I read yesterday that Oliver Cromwell had a lot of the jewels sold and gold/silver either sold or melted to make coins. Just imagine how amazing the British Crown Jewels would be if we had all these historic pieces! I read the oldest piece is the sapphire in the middle of the cross at the top of the Crown (please excuse my laymen's terms. I enjoy reading about these things so I'm not an expert in the slightest). It said that Edward the Confessor had that sapphire in a ring, he was buried in it when he died. Sadly someone opened the tomb and took it off of his fingers.
    Sorry I'm sure that you may know all of this. I started typing and didn't stop lol. My texts always turn into essays too. Feel free to delete if you want to 🙂. Take care.

    • @historywithhilbert
      @historywithhilbert  7 ปีที่แล้ว

      This channel is my hobby because I just find history to be incredibly interesting and the more I learn the more I want to know is the truth :)
      It would have been great wouldn't it, but I think sometimes the numerous theories people come up with to explain the mysteries of the past and what we don't know are just as fun to try and prove and disprove and speculate over. Ah yes, there is so much that is a massive shame. The Danes when invading England burned many old Anglo-Saxon manuscripts which might have told us so much more about the migration of tribes to Britain and of the early history which we will now never know. Don't worry, I am also no expert in the field of jewellery. I hadn't heard about that before, thanks for sharing this with me!
      I didn't in fact know much of this, thank you for getting in touch and for watching my videos!

  • @redcapetimetraveler7688
    @redcapetimetraveler7688 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    9:00 ="me lie" sounds to be the verb "lier"meaning to tie, or from " hommage lige" a kind of oath between a vassal and its overlord, whatever with "loyaulté" ( loyalty-eng- loyauté-fr) the sens is logical all the peoples who follow this banneer are doing so all tied together by oath or honnor...very chilvary' spirit...

  • @dubrequenash3144
    @dubrequenash3144 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    I think Richard III banner motto stands 4 loyalty my liege or loyalty to my liege

  • @garychynne1377
    @garychynne1377 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank u Gare

  • @Mattteus
    @Mattteus 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I learned that Tewk(e)sbury is pronounced the same in England and in New England

  • @costrio
    @costrio 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hollywood embelishes stories to make them more exciting! So, I suspect, might have been the same in the Bard's time, perhaps? Hollywood = same old same old remake of previous concepts?

  • @spencerkropf7404
    @spencerkropf7404 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    The German connection originated with Edward the Black Prince after the Battle of Crecy he took the motto of John of Bohemia who died in the battle. I believe it still serves as the motto of the prince of wales.

    • @historywithhilbert
      @historywithhilbert  7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Thanks for your interesting comment Spencer, I saw that you've seen my follow-up video where I mention your information about King John the Blind of Bohemia :)

  • @BigHossHackworth
    @BigHossHackworth 7 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Kun je een video over oud Nederlands maken ?

    • @historywithhilbert
      @historywithhilbert  7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Het staat op de lijst!

    • @ik5083
      @ik5083 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Nederlands is nog maar een paar honderd jaar oud.

  • @allmightlionthunder5515
    @allmightlionthunder5515 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Chapman Surname, Family Crest & Coats of Arms. The ancestry of the name Chapman can be traced back to the Anglo-Saxon tribes of Britain. It is a name for a merchant. ... The earliest record of someone bearing the surname Chapman in England was in Cambridgeshire, prior to the Norman Conquest in 1066
    www.google.co.uk/search?q=chapman+coat+of+arms&client=opera&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiohKy1zurWAhVI7hoKHSrKDN8QsAQIJw&biw=1920&bih=970#imgrc=nPRrqLIFknvWIM:
    Duffy Coat of Arms. Duffy is a surname of Irish origin. It comes from the original Irish name Ó Dubhthaigh, meaning descendant or grandson of Dubhthach. ... Variant Spellings of the Irish surname Duffy indlude Duffey, Duff, Duffy, O'Duffy, O'Duffey, Duffe, O'Duffe, Doey, Dohey, Doohey, O'Dowey, and many more.
    www.google.co.uk/search?q=duffy+coat+of+arms+motto&client=opera&hs=1YG&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQ2suK0erWAhVK1hoKHfqTAFMQsAQIYw&biw=1920&bih=970#imgrc=-Wi4Ei8Q-WKWCM:

  • @blackorder7561
    @blackorder7561 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    i think its is "my loyalties lies with" 9:16 just a guess but i see
    YorkieKDS has already a good translation :)

  • @costrio
    @costrio 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    What if the flags in the future became bar code symbols? Just wondering...

  • @Alex-mm1he
    @Alex-mm1he 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Are you ever going to make a video on the Hundred years war, or the Crusades?

    • @historywithhilbert
      @historywithhilbert  7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Absolutely, two eras I love to bits!

    • @Alex-mm1he
      @Alex-mm1he 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I can't wait to see the videos then. Keep up the good work, I love your channel.

    • @historywithhilbert
      @historywithhilbert  7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Thank you very much Wood, I hope you enjoy them!

    • @Alex-mm1he
      @Alex-mm1he 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      i will

  • @costrio
    @costrio 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Good video. I wonder what there might be about the etymology of the English language after the Normandy conquerers took over. The official language became French and a lot of French terms entered or modified the domestic languages, I've learned and I find how history modifies languages to be an exciting topic -- like watching paint dry, but it's in the details that a lot of history might have been skipped, perhaps?

  • @DivinityZX
    @DivinityZX 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    What show are those clips from?

    • @historywithhilbert
      @historywithhilbert  7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Hi sorry, the clips are from the White Queen, you can find it here:
      th-cam.com/video/OI_JgNyqdOQ/w-d-xo.html
      and also from the BBC's Hollow Crown which can be found here:
      th-cam.com/video/qGJf-bVNxpY/w-d-xo.html
      Show less

    • @DivinityZX
      @DivinityZX 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thanks!

  • @leod-sigefast
    @leod-sigefast 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Very cool video. I have a vague memory of learning about Richard III having a hog banner. I like the hog (or boar). It harks back to the Anglo- Saxon imagery. As you say, modern flags are boring. Tricolors everywhere. I am also a big fan of medieval flags.
    The Anglo-French names of the 'great' families show the dominance the Norman bastards held over England (and still do - land thieving bastards) during this time. This was basically a Norman-French family bitch struggle that unfortunately had to drag the folk of England into it (as was the hundred years war)....fuck the Normans.

    • @kyrgyzjeff4550
      @kyrgyzjeff4550 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Leode Siefast WOW somewhat really hates William the Conqueror.

  • @jardon8636
    @jardon8636 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    shakespear and good ap tewdar-tudor propaganda later,,, the war of the roses** more accurate , war of the cousins... everyone was related too King Edward III of england ...
    and the stories are such good legends and plays... fact and fiction is so mixed together... its difficult too unravell...

  • @izzieandavadanuggets9325
    @izzieandavadanuggets9325 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    How can you say the white boar banner would be so inspirational? Is that a .... am I seeing boar genitalia? Not inspirational. I like the dragon better.