"Connectionalism is 'a bedrock principle of United Methodist connectional polity.'" UMC Translation: Kidnapping and gaslighting is profitable in the church.
Our DS (at the time) told us that "the doctrine hasn't changed at all" yet when asked how that was logically true when the GC had basically rewritten numerous bible passages, the DS got very defensive and in veiled words, called the questioner a bigot.
My prediction was the post separation UMC would become primarily a real estate sales/brokerage operation. With every subsequent decision, they are moving closer to that.
One other thing: when the district judge's dismissal of the Rio Texas' lawsuit against the 27 congregations regarding disaffiliation is upheld on appeal by the Appeals Court and provided the Texas Supreme Court either decides not to take it up, or does take it up and then upholds it, the implication of that will be that any UM congregation in the State of Texas will be able to to merely announce that they're separating from their annual conference (and pay no money) and the UMC and the conference will have no legal recourse to prevent it. The appeals court decision should come soon after the first of the year.
We will be watching this closely. Are there any other lawsuits in other conferences pending in this same vein? Half to 2-thirds of our small congregation is gone, and after the JC's "decision", my wife & I are now moving on (along with a few others). We all want to save our little church but can't in good faith support a denomination that has rewritten the bible to fit their ideology.
If the UMC truly have burnt though all the money they got from disaffiliating churches as I keep hearing, where are they going to get their funds going forward? It seems they're running full steam but not going anywhere.
I keep trying to comment on this but it is getting auto-removed. This isn't the only one, but Trinity UMC in Eugene, Oregon was allegedly sympathetic to leadership and yet the superintendent shut it down allegedly due to reasons that _contradict their sympathy_ iykwim. It was livestreamed and a recording can be found within a few seconds of digging.
Bickering over assets is a strong, strong, strong indication that primary concern for the spread of the Gospel has been lost. What are people staying for?
Name names. Who were the "judges" who voted for thievery. Why let them hide behind anonymity? What was the vote, 5 to 4 or whatever? Unanimous? What was the score? Sue, sue, sue.
My church left the Presbyterian USA over 50 years ago. They started meeting in a school. Now are setting on paid off building and property worth millions.
There was an Evangelical Lutheran Church of America in my city whose congregation with the pastor voted to leave and join a more conservative Lutheran body. The ELCA had to be petty and, through the courts, took the church building away. The ELCA ended up giving the building away to the Boys and Girls Club as it then sat empty. All is good. The congregation after renting space for a period ended up building a beautiful new church.
In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. - 2 Peter 2:3
I began litigating church disaffiliation cases in the 1990s, starting with a case involving a local Methodist church here in Fresno, California. The issues were the UMC's departure from traditional Christianity. The UMC used the trust clause as a way to exert control over local church property and strip property from dissident conservative churches. That was 30 years ago. I couldn't understand why other Methodist churches outside of California could not see how the California Conference was persecuting bible-believing Christians (and enriching itself at the same time.) What has happened is that the same strategy has been exported to the rest of America. Any thoughts on why Methodists outside of California allowed this to happen? Did you know this was going on.
I fully affirm the people of the GMC and recognize that although no one is perfect, they are truely, Holy Spirit filled nonetheless. I also recognize the members of the UMC who, though traditional in theology, chose to remain in the hope of a return one day. The Holy Spirit is still very much present in the UMC. And I know this because I recognize the influence of the Holy Spirit in compelling so many of the GMC to bare wittness to the attacks and harm inflicted to their conservative brothers and sisters still fighting on the battle field they themselves abandoned. Its no coincidence that many are compelled to report on the struggles of the people they turned their backs on. Its like their being forced to observe the consequences of their sin.
To start, I do not think that you are incorrect in saying that the UMC is trying to keep churches from leaving. That said, complaining about an entity using its judicial processes to protect itself is unfair and probably hypocritical. You would protect your personal assets by using the rule of law. This is what the UMC is doing corporately. Just because the UMC has changed does not mean that they have to give away what legally is supposed to be for their benefit. That said, the UMC is also speeding its own destruction in many parts of the country. Yes, in metro areas the AC can shut down a church and liquidate it for profit. The ELCA had proven definitively that you cannot do so in small towns, and near me the UMC has recently proven that you cannot do so in rural areas. (If you want to buy a church, I can point out a couple near me that are available for immediate move-in, but be warned they have been vacant for quite a while.) And I believe that in many parts of the country, you will see the UMC trying to sell church property soon as congregations give in and walk away.
I can see what you are saying. I think I might disagree about what gives ownership to an entity. And really, American law says that the local congregation owns the property, but that they entrust management of their assets to the denomination. And that is fine with me, except when that 'trust' relationship is made permanent. I think ownership, on top of being recognized by the state, is earned by paying for the property, maintaining it, and using it. These are things the local congregation does. So it seems quite wrong to establish any sort of entitlement over the property to a denomination, especially one that has violated its own rules for decades. To my mind, the covenant relationship was broken long ago, even if American law hasn't recognized it. I would like to think that, if I had been given authority over another's assets, but they found me to be unfaithful in my trust, that I would be willing and eager to hand such assets over. I don't have a charitable view of people who use whatever means they have to get and hoard stuff. Mammon is great spiritual threat. I believe we can wield it for God's glory, but when we use worldly coercion to get it, then we compromise ourselves.
I believe that you are putting your stamp of approval on deception and bullying tactics by what is supposed to be a Christian organization. Very unbiblical.
I think part of the problem here is that the original agreement included a set of expectations from both parties, embodied in the Rules of Discipline. That those were ignored or neglected for years by the UMC leadership constitutes a kind of fraud enacted against individual congregations.
I would like to think you are right. I'm not sure why they would, though. I'm not familiar with any big influential voices within the UMC advocating for that, nor a caucus group that would get behind any legislation to do so. At least right now, the sentiment seems very against any disaffiliation provision, especially among the ruling class of the UMC...
Please, please quit tearing my denomination apart. It's so completely unChristian to rip apart other parts of the church. Go focus on building your thing.
There is a difference between me tearing your denomination apart and just noticing that your denomination is tearing itself apart. Blaming any measure of this division on me shows a woeful lack of discernment. There is no world in which a party is entitled to the silence of others who see them do wrong. If you note anything I say that is false, you are welcome to correct me and expect an apology. But if your problem is that I'm speaking a truth that doesn't look so good, well, that is your problem. It isn't right for you to put it on me.
@@plainspokenpod Agreed! It's been said that we shouldn't mix politics and religion but politics have been forced upon by the "progressives" so we either resist or "go along to get along". Silence is consent.
OUR denomination has torn itself apart. I honestly think that it was intentional. FWIW, most of our congregation (including my wife and I) have decided to leave our little country UMC church and go to ANY church that isn't affiliated with a larger body (including the GMC). The GMC & @plainspokenpod certainly isn't trying to _help_ the UMC but honestly, there's not much left of our traditional UMC to tear apart.
The ultimate irony is that all of this is based upon something called a TRUST clause...from an entity you can't trust.
Watching all this take place, I no longer want to belong to a church that does not own its own property and assets free and clear.
All good ideas of man have a way for man to manipulate for an abuse of power.
For all the talk the of love by the UMC it seems that greed is more important to them than loving their fellow members rights.
It's always about greed and power.
The love of money...
It is amazing to me they place so much store in connectionalism as a bedrock value, but not Biblical principles....
I stopped hanging out with the UMC about 20 years ago when it became obvious they were more about the money. This is no surprise to me now.
"Connectionalism is 'a bedrock principle of United Methodist connectional polity.'"
UMC Translation: Kidnapping and gaslighting is profitable in the church.
Why would anyone trust a body that has rejected God’s word to act in a fair and honorable manner.
They can't be trusted to do the right thing in one area, thus they can't be trusted, period.
Our DS (at the time) told us that "the doctrine hasn't changed at all" yet when asked how that was logically true when the GC had basically rewritten numerous bible passages, the DS got very defensive and in veiled words, called the questioner a bigot.
@@KevinKidd_CSRE-AMD name calling is what they resort to. They will also use scripture inappropriately and out of context.
UMC is now a collective of the constrained.
Thank you, Pastor Rickman for keeping your eye on the ball!
My prediction was the post separation UMC would become primarily a real estate sales/brokerage operation. With every subsequent decision, they are moving closer to that.
One other thing: when the district judge's dismissal of the Rio Texas' lawsuit against the 27 congregations regarding disaffiliation is upheld on appeal by the Appeals Court and provided the Texas Supreme Court either decides not to take it up, or does take it up and then upholds it, the implication of that will be that any UM congregation in the State of Texas will be able to to merely announce that they're separating from their annual conference (and pay no money) and the UMC and the conference will have no legal recourse to prevent it. The appeals court decision should come soon after the first of the year.
We will be watching this closely. Are there any other lawsuits in other conferences pending in this same vein? Half to 2-thirds of our small congregation is gone, and after the JC's "decision", my wife & I are now moving on (along with a few others). We all want to save our little church but can't in good faith support a denomination that has rewritten the bible to fit their ideology.
If the UMC truly have burnt though all the money they got from disaffiliating churches as I keep hearing, where are they going to get their funds going forward? It seems they're running full steam but not going anywhere.
it’s a con job - they’ll find new marks after fleecing the old ones
I keep trying to comment on this but it is getting auto-removed. This isn't the only one, but Trinity UMC in Eugene, Oregon was allegedly sympathetic to leadership and yet the superintendent shut it down allegedly due to reasons that _contradict their sympathy_ iykwim. It was livestreamed and a recording can be found within a few seconds of digging.
Bickering over assets is a strong, strong, strong indication that primary concern for the spread of the Gospel has been lost. What are people staying for?
To have a radicalized, secularized social club.
Name names. Who were the "judges" who voted for thievery. Why let them hide behind anonymity? What was the vote, 5 to 4 or whatever? Unanimous? What was the score? Sue, sue, sue.
Presbyterians went through the same thing. The battles will begin.
My church left the Presbyterian USA over 50 years ago. They started meeting in a school. Now are setting on paid off building and property worth millions.
There was an Evangelical Lutheran Church of America in my city whose congregation with the pastor voted to leave and join a more conservative Lutheran body. The ELCA had to be petty and, through the courts, took the church building away. The ELCA ended up giving the building away to the Boys and Girls Club as it then sat empty. All is good. The congregation after renting space for a period ended up building a beautiful new church.
“A radical departure from connectionalism” is betraying the covenant, not disaffiliation of disaffected churches because of that.
In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. - 2 Peter 2:3
Why can't they ignore the judical counsel as the bishops in the Western Jurstiction did with the practicing homosexual bishops?
Good point
I began litigating church disaffiliation cases in the 1990s, starting with a case involving a local Methodist church here in Fresno, California. The issues were the UMC's departure from traditional Christianity. The UMC used the trust clause as a way to exert control over local church property and strip property from dissident conservative churches.
That was 30 years ago.
I couldn't understand why other Methodist churches outside of California could not see how the California Conference was persecuting bible-believing Christians (and enriching itself at the same time.)
What has happened is that the same strategy has been exported to the rest of America.
Any thoughts on why Methodists outside of California allowed this to happen? Did you know this was going on.
Are there any law suits being prepared to break the "Trust" clause?
I fully affirm the people of the GMC and recognize that although no one is perfect, they are truely, Holy Spirit filled nonetheless.
I also recognize the members of the UMC who, though traditional in theology, chose to remain in the hope of a return one day. The Holy Spirit is still very much present in the UMC.
And I know this because I recognize the influence of the Holy Spirit in compelling so many of the GMC to bare wittness to the attacks and harm inflicted to their conservative brothers and sisters still fighting on the battle field they themselves abandoned.
Its no coincidence that many are compelled to report on the struggles of the people they turned their backs on.
Its like their being forced to observe the consequences of their sin.
Flee this apostate church as I did a decade ago. Meet in homes if you must.
Shocking! (
A kangaroo court. Disgusting.
This is theft. Very sad.
Reminds me of Animal House after Delta destroys Flounder's Brother's car.
Next will come taxation of churches
To start, I do not think that you are incorrect in saying that the UMC is trying to keep churches from leaving.
That said, complaining about an entity using its judicial processes to protect itself is unfair and probably hypocritical. You would protect your personal assets by using the rule of law. This is what the UMC is doing corporately. Just because the UMC has changed does not mean that they have to give away what legally is supposed to be for their benefit.
That said, the UMC is also speeding its own destruction in many parts of the country. Yes, in metro areas the AC can shut down a church and liquidate it for profit. The ELCA had proven definitively that you cannot do so in small towns, and near me the UMC has recently proven that you cannot do so in rural areas. (If you want to buy a church, I can point out a couple near me that are available for immediate move-in, but be warned they have been vacant for quite a while.) And I believe that in many parts of the country, you will see the UMC trying to sell church property soon as congregations give in and walk away.
I can see what you are saying. I think I might disagree about what gives ownership to an entity. And really, American law says that the local congregation owns the property, but that they entrust management of their assets to the denomination. And that is fine with me, except when that 'trust' relationship is made permanent. I think ownership, on top of being recognized by the state, is earned by paying for the property, maintaining it, and using it. These are things the local congregation does. So it seems quite wrong to establish any sort of entitlement over the property to a denomination, especially one that has violated its own rules for decades. To my mind, the covenant relationship was broken long ago, even if American law hasn't recognized it.
I would like to think that, if I had been given authority over another's assets, but they found me to be unfaithful in my trust, that I would be willing and eager to hand such assets over. I don't have a charitable view of people who use whatever means they have to get and hoard stuff. Mammon is great spiritual threat. I believe we can wield it for God's glory, but when we use worldly coercion to get it, then we compromise ourselves.
I believe that you are putting your stamp of approval on deception and bullying tactics by what is supposed to be a Christian organization. Very unbiblical.
I think part of the problem here is that the original agreement included a set of expectations from both parties, embodied in the Rules of Discipline. That those were ignored or neglected for years by the UMC leadership constitutes a kind of fraud enacted against individual congregations.
eventually general conference will make a way
I would like to think you are right. I'm not sure why they would, though. I'm not familiar with any big influential voices within the UMC advocating for that, nor a caucus group that would get behind any legislation to do so. At least right now, the sentiment seems very against any disaffiliation provision, especially among the ruling class of the UMC...
@@plainspokenpod A spate of lawsuits will be the only thing that gets the UMC ruling class' attention at this point. Where do we sign up?
Sounds analogous to the American civil war. UMC adopted a radical Lincolnian ideology lol
Please, please quit tearing my denomination apart. It's so completely unChristian to rip apart other parts of the church. Go focus on building your thing.
There is a difference between me tearing your denomination apart and just noticing that your denomination is tearing itself apart. Blaming any measure of this division on me shows a woeful lack of discernment. There is no world in which a party is entitled to the silence of others who see them do wrong. If you note anything I say that is false, you are welcome to correct me and expect an apology. But if your problem is that I'm speaking a truth that doesn't look so good, well, that is your problem. It isn't right for you to put it on me.
@@plainspokenpod Agreed! It's been said that we shouldn't mix politics and religion but politics have been forced upon by the "progressives" so we either resist or "go along to get along". Silence is consent.
OUR denomination has torn itself apart. I honestly think that it was intentional. FWIW, most of our congregation (including my wife and I) have decided to leave our little country UMC church and go to ANY church that isn't affiliated with a larger body (including the GMC).
The GMC & @plainspokenpod certainly isn't trying to _help_ the UMC but honestly, there's not much left of our traditional UMC to tear apart.