The Science of Brass Tuning | Stuff all brass players should know
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 พ.ค. 2017
- My first version of this video had a couple of issues, so I've re-recorded it for accuracy.
In this video I talk about the two main reasons why brass instruments are inherently untuneful. Remember though, this is just the theory; I recommend all musicians develop their hearing and intonation specific to the instrument you're playing.
Please note: I've made a bit of a mistake in this video. Throughout I refer to the fundamental tone and the 1st harmonic as two different things. This is incorrect. The fundamental tone is the 1st harmonic.
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This could be all solved if we just had a big tuning slide to play on....wait a minute.
Spencer Lininger amen
This post was made by the trombone gang
Slide it man, and forgitabout valves !!!
Think about an F attachment or a Bass Trombone’s two valves, you still need to tune yourself to a different set of notes for each valve.
Don’t disclose this.
There are very good reasons why valves were invented.
The use of the guitar fretboard is a stroke of genius. I can't play brass to save my life, but the science is impossibly clear.
Thanks.
I agree. I was struggling to understand this and it now makes perfect sense. Great video!
I was thinking the exact same thing. There may be no better way to illustrate this concept.
Effectivement, ces explications sont d'une justesse incroyable. Je n'ai jamais entendu une explication aussi "in tune". C'est magnifique.
Yet a good number of string players have gotten away with playing without frets for centuries (I'm a cellist as well as a baritonist, BTW).
Yes, you don't have to adjust your fingers for harmonics, you just have to adjust your eyebrows.
Mine Tobes that's not a good habit tho
I'm a guitar player trying to learn how to play brass. This video made a lot of things make sense for me. You are one good teacher, man. Cheers
This explanation would have dramatically improved my trumpet playing had it been possible to see it two decades before it was recorded.
Depending on the temperament (of the instrument as well as the person arguing ;-)), one might say that the 3rd harmonic G is spot-on, but the scale we use today has been modified (for very good reasons) to ever so slightly detune that interval.
Right. When he says the G is slightly sharp, that's in relation to equal temperment. Equal temperment is a way (and the most commonly used way) to tune keyboard and other similar instruments so that the intervals between notes is the same regardless of the key of the music being played. It's a compomise of making every key slightly out of tune in order to avoid some keys being very out of tune, so I would say it's more correct to say the standard G of a piano is 2 cents flat than to say the G on a brass instrument is 2 cents sharp.
@@jasonbehm3081 same for the thirds... that is why brass bands or strings just can sound in perfect pitch, when the piece is in the right key and people use their ears where keyboards can't.
Wow. This was an amazing lesson and explanation. The use of the guitar fretboard was a stroke of genius!
💯
about the second promblem we normally have the third valve really flat so its in tune when you use the 1st and 3rd valve, so we use 1st and 2nd valve instead of just 3rd valve
I'm a double bass player that hurt his left hand, so I'm looking to choose a low pitch brass instrument to learn, after watching this masterful presentation, I'm leaning towards trombone.
Tip one; don't even bother tuning a mellophone. It never works
I'm pretty sure a mellophone is legally classified as a noisemaker
cmon dude d flat is always spot on with that 1 2 3 fingering
The Baguette Finally someone understands.
For real, D flat is like ridiculous and don't even try playing any notes between but not including G through low C. Low C and down though, it does it to an extent.
You can, you just have to use alternate fingerings and your embouchure. But it depends on the instrument - for instance, my Kanstul G mello bugle has a super flat 4th space E open, but with 1+2 it’s perfect. Similarly, 4th line D is really off with just the first valve, but with 1+3 it’s right on.
Thanks for re-uploading. Really happy to recommend this as a very useful learning resource :)
This is really clear, concise, and accurate. You explain things well because, I take it, you conceptualize things very well in your own head. I appreciate this a great deal.
Music is so counter-intuitive sometimes, partly because it is commonly taught alongside a number of very old, traditional, false premises, whether for the purposes of tradition or for the purposes of simplification. So often when you look more closely at particular aspects of music, such as the design of brass instruments as I see in this video, you see things that are just not as you would have assumed them to be, or by the common philosophy of music, how they ought to be. Indeed, one can reason that music does not have to involve any compromise, really, as long as we are clear in what it is that we're trying to accomplish, as far as composition goes. But when it comes to performing compositions with acoustic instruments, the harmonic series seems to necessarily be an obstacle. Even if what we desire from music does not have to be based, entirely, on the harmonic series, the harmonic series still makes it inherently easier to produce some combinations of tones than others. Using only those exact tones which are found in the harmonic series is actually very limiting. To the extent that we want to perform something which is not based on the harmonic series, we will find greater difficult performing it. To produce an equal tempered diatonic scale from a brass instrument does not just require that we follow nature, but that we bend it to our will.
The 3rd valve length is not designed for sole use but is the correct length for use along with 2nd valve. Such that 23 A-flat is in tune with slides "in".
So this is why 1+2 is preferred over solo 3? Solo 3 can't get a perfect E without lip bend? But it sound like 1+2 is off anyway as well so both would have the exact same issue, no? I guess it just depends which is more flat...?
@@SelfPropelledDestiny no. 12 is sharp. Pull out 1st valve slide for 12 to be in tune. 3 alone is flat. 23 is in tune , and 13 and 123 are sharp requiring 3rd and/or 1st slide out for tuning.
As always, an excellent video. I particularly like the fretboard illustration. I'm not very numerate so I only "sort of" grasp the first portion, but despite not being a guitarist I think the way you've pictorially illustrated the effect of combined valves is superb. I know my multi-valve notes are sharp; it's so valuable to know WHY. The trick of course comes in knowing for a 1+3 valve note, whether to tweak my first valve tuning slide with the saddle, tweak the third valve slide with the finger ring, or both. I guess the answer is: practice.
That was very insightful, especially the use of the fret board graphic. Thanks!
That was very informative, thanks Trent!!
Remember that he is talking about the harmonic series as they are in a 100% cylindrical tubes without thickness. For real world brass instruments they can be quite different and even vary between 2 horns of the same model.
Suggestion, you could make a graph that combines the 2 that you showed early in the video, the one with the even harmonics, and the exponential notes, and then plot the 7 harmonic series for the valve combinations to show how everything matches up.
Thank you. Real explanation. It helps me a lot in understanding the trumpet.
Hi Trent--Why, when you discussed various schemes for compensating for tuning issues when using multiple valves, did you not even mention the method in common use today, i.e. tuning slide rings, saddles, and triggers? It would seem to be the logical place to end this video!
Hi David, you're right - in retrospect that was a stupid omission.
@@TrentHamilton as a learner, its certainly something I was expecting and I'll go looking now to see if you've done another video on it. May I say though how much I appreciate this vid, seriously educational, well thought out, well demonstrated/ilustrated, super clear, just all round great. thank you. aside from learning the trumpet and guitar, I just appreciate the science of music and production of instruments and this seriously helped my understanding. thank you
@@Michaelcamps Thank you so much for your kind words.
Maestro, thank you so much for this. You are really teaching me a lot about acoustics and musical instruments.
You are very welcome
great to see someone re-doing a video. this is how everyone should work
I'm a guitar player learning trumpet and I'm surprised how many transferrable skills I got from guitar that help me understand brass. Thank you for the video!
the most important thing you can learn from a guitar, is that when you play an harmonic (flageolet as you say for strings) it will swing by itself, if you find the right spot. If you don't it will only swing shortly if at all. same with the higher register of brass instruments. You have to hit the harmonics at the exact right spot. Then it is much less effort to play high. The worse you hit them, the more effort it takes, to make them sound.
Great explanation! Thanks Trent!
I used to play my 4 valve Besson Ebb tuba at least 4 days a week when I was at college in various groups. Always was a little confused when this topic came up. This was a great explanation. Thank you.
Very well done!
Love your ending piece!
Hey thanks Trent I feel like you explained it very well.
Hey Trent; hope you are doing well. Great couple of videos. I will share them with Crossroads Brass band
Thank you :) Hope you're doing well.
I am delighted to see in this explanation what happens to my tuba. I thought my valves were wrong or my fingering was incorrect. I see now why. Thanks for the scientific reason shown.
I remember when I first started playing trumpet in the 6th grade, I noticed that valves 1+2 made almost the same notes as valve 3. So my question is this: If valve 3 is more in tune than 1+2, then why do they teach you to use 1+2 instead of just using 3?
Had the exact same question just now. Find any answers?
Very informative, thank you for this explanation
Thanks Trent
I’ve only recently started on brass after decades of choir singing so am finding your talks wonderful.
Yours gratefully
Alex Berry
Kingaroy
Queensland
Thankyou for sharing your passion.
Very good explanation!
9:40 - "these valves are designed to be in tune when they are used one at a time" - that's actually incorrect. The third valve is designed to be used in combination with the second valve, to lower the overall pitch by an accurate 4 semitones. Hence why you don't have to use the trigger on A flats/E flats.
Of course there is a perfect fix for that problem. It's called trombone ;)
Yep
Sascha Rambeaud how dare you. #euphonium4life
It's a fact
Sascha Rambeaud well that's not true at all. Trombonists have no excuse because we have a way to adjust the partials.
ShowingSummer yeah #Baritone/EuphoniumLiveMatter
If the tuning issues did not exist I suspect brass would lose it's charm . Good players seem to be able to compensate . They may even be able to do this to produce good tone and intonation when the mouthpiece gap is too great or when the valve alignment is out of whack so that valve ports are not properly aligned with the tubing entering the valve casing . This is a fascinating aspect of brass , rather frustrating for the player of average ability though .
That was a great video. Thanks.
This is why trumpets have finger rings on the third valve (and good ones have thumb settles on the first valve slide); so you can tune notes that use those valves on the fly. You can just adjust the tuning based on the combination of notes that you're using.
Excellent!!!
Great Video
Have you recorded the trombone intro and end piece yourself?
How do you do that?
How do you keep it in time?
I play trombone, my intonation is pretty good. Give me a valved instrument my intonation is actual ass.
It only takes a little while to learn how to lip down for some of those sharp valve combinations
Omg! At 47 seconds on your right above your shoulder-is that a getzen with large bell? I owned one about 20 years ago. I miss it.
Well put
I have a question, I'm a beginner trumpet player and I was wandering if the 3:rd valve lowers it to a minor third, shoudn't that be used when playing say written A instead of the first and second valve?
You can do this absolutely, and sometimes tuning is better in that case, but it depends on a case by case basis.
This is excellent! Could you publish these charts into a google document or like and put them in the description?
at 3:20 when you were trying to show us that the function for the frequencies on the harmonic series are linear, you should've used a line graph. The reason is that, well, you're trying to prove that they're linear. It would properly work on a bar graph if your focus was more towards the frequencies themselves instead of the linearity.
Nice video, Trent. Just curious why we're taught to use the first and second valve together rather than the third valve alone?
If you use an alternate fingering on a note like that, it changes the intonation of the note which makes the note more in/out of tune
Great explanation! Didn't know about the valve combination issue (I play the trombone), now it makes a lot of sense.
I have a question though - does the effect of the valves change as you go up in lip frequency? It's like going up the fingerboard - you need shorter frets to go down, but the valve piping stays the same...
The same way that the slide positions become tighter as you go up. So the valve combinations might become less sharp or even flat on the upper register?
Hi, thanks for the question. No, the valves remain in tune when you go up or down. Guitars have 6 different strings, all at different pitches, yet the frets are the same for all 6 strings. That being said a person's lip can alter the tuning of the valves quite dramatically when you play high.
Trent Hamilton Thanks, this makes sense now. You add the same pipe length, but it's forced to vibrate faster together with the rest of the instrument.
Now that I think of it, each slide position is a half step apart from the others, no matter how high you play. The only thing that changes is in which position the next note after position 1 appears on the slide. After that it keeps increasing in semitone per position...
The good thing about French Horns is the use of the hand to shorten the length of the tubing by a bit so we can adjust the tuning, we also get used to our instruments and move hand as required. But we also have a much bigger range than every other brass instrument. 5 octaves and that gives us the ability to almost use no valves in the top octave, though, as you said, the tuning can be a bit adrift. Thank goodness for valves. My husband, also a French horn player/retired music teacher, and myself have Natural horns we play, when we can. They have a huge case of tubing that we interchange to change key. I am good at full and part hand stopping. You must look into that. It is interesting and fun. Shout if you want to ask, husband is better at explaining, I just picked it up and played it. Simples. Tee Hee
Interesting and confusing at the same time. You certainly know your stuff! Don't the slides on some trumpets compensate for the inequality when using multiple valves?
thank you!
You never explained what the besson enharmonics system is. What is it and how does it work, may I ask?
Also, if using 1 and 2 is less in tune than just the third vlave, why is 1 and 2 the preferred fingering? Also, why is using 1 2 3 to play a low C# on trumpet extremely sharp, but in tune to play the F# below it? I didn't notice any significant differences between the first and second videos, by the way
I don't know the answer to the first question, but I kinda know about the other two!
1). 1 2 is what is usually written because 3 is also out of tune because it's supposed to make 2 3 in tune so 3 by itself is flat (at least from what I've been taught, things might be different for new Zealand instruments), as for why it is preferred, probably because it's easier to quickly change to and from it because our first two fingers are a lot stronger than our third finger?(I'm not completely sure but that's the best explanation I can come up with).
2). 1 2 3 is always a sharp fingering, but when playing down that low, it's likely that you're just buzzing flat (buzzing flat + sharp fingering = in tune but below focused or "muddy" tone). On 1 3 and 1 2 3, always make sure you kick out a slide on it (if possible) or just have your tuning slides in such a way that you can lip all the notes in tune.
Also, yes I know this is extremely late, but I just want to make sure I get some of this info out there. However, keep in mind that I am not a professional or even an adult so some of my info or explanations might not be entirely correct, BUT I do believe myself to be pretty knowledgeable in this field. Good luck in your playing!!
Hi mate I myself wanted to study about brass band master or band conductors course etc. And I want to teach kids how read music notes aswell. What sort of course do I have to take to study to become once? If you know what I mean?
Helpful info even though I fell asleep after the fretboard demo lol
Trent, i have just purchased a Mendini 4 valve euphonium. I have stared to play after 25 years of the trumpet, baritone and French horn. I’m not sure of the 4th valve use can I ignore the 4th valve ?. Could you advise me of the 4th valve use as well as the quality of the Euphonium it self. If I strick to the instrument I will eventually move on to a compensating euphonium. Can you recomend a intermediate compensating euphonium.
Sincerely
Victor
Victor Batres
Hey Victor, the 4th valve can be used as an alternate fingering for the 13 valve combination. For example you can use fourth valve for low C. You may find that for certian notes thr 4th valve plays more in tune than the 13 fingering. Hope this helps! -Isaiah
2 & 4 are more in tune for concert b natural. I started on a trombone with a trigger (trigger and 4th valve do the same thing) and on my trombone I never go below 5th position or on my euphonium I never use 1&3 or 1&2&3. I also use 3 valve instead of 1&2 because I am lazy. If I can push one valve instead of two, I do it. I use a medium large mouthpiece and can lip any note in tune.
Lotus and Harrelson trumpet manufacturers seem to claim they've solved, or at least improved, these intonation issues, if i remember correctly. Any thoughts on their systems?
Great video BTW.
Hi Trent - thanks for the video. This helped me understand why c# (1, 2, 3) seems so out of tune on my trumpet. How do we solve that? lipping it?
A combination of moving the slides and developing your ear to hear the correct pitch. Use your finger in the 3rd valve ring/saddle to trigger (move) the slide out further out. Also, try practicing using a drone to help you hear the correct pitch for C# and D in your head before you play it.
Thank you Brother Trent. You have nicely and succinctly explained this topic. Your graphics were very helpful.
As we would have said here in the US of A thirty-five years ago: “You’re a good man Charlie Brown!”
Again, Thank you!
Wonderful work. Kept thinking, what about slide instruments? If the error is always in the sharp direction with valves, could a faster main tuning slide be used and controlled manually( by hand)or fingers. But the down side would be the pitch consciousness of the player( student) in so many cases. I needed to hear this so I won't miss lead my granddaughter,when she is practicing her Euphonium
Some Euphoniums do include main tuning slide triggers, however, it is a common practice to "lip" the required notes into tune rather than use a trigger. Some models, such as the JohnPacker stencil horns come preinstalled with one, but you can also find kits to attach them.
Each valve has its tuning slide . Only the second is not adjustable while playing, the others can. And we use these slides to correct the pitch of some notes. Does this not solve the tuning problems? At least to a certain degree ?
Okay so I watched the compensating valve video, and I have a question. I'm a trombone player myself and I have a tuning slide for the main part of the horn and one for when my trigger is pressed. By tuning my trigger to F, am I doing some sort of compensation myself? Thanks in advance!
No. Compensating valves basically mean that you are holding two entirely different instruments-for a standard euph., one would be in Bb and the other in F. You know how Trent, in this video, talked about how combining valves puts the instrument out of tune? Compensating valves get rid of this issue when combining other valves with the fourth valve, so intonation wise, it is like you are only pressing one valve.
Trombonists can't have this, don't have this, and don't need to worry about it, because adding a compensating system would be physically impossible because the instrument would need to switch at some ambiguous point between fourth and fifth position. When you tune to an F and then go chromatically down the horn to a low B, you will notice that the notes get flatter and flatter past 4th position. This is slightly due to your embouchure having to loosen up, but mostly due to the fact that using the trigger past 4th is like using two valves at once on a valved instrument, since 5th-7th is equivalent only to multiple-valve combinations. Compensating valves on euphonium for instance would get rid of this issue, and the horn would play with the same intonation it would on the Bb partial - trombonists play a giant tuning slide, however, and just move all the positions in a little bit. You are compensating with your slide positions (the same way you should be for the concert F partials, the D partial, the high Ab partial, etc), not extra tubing.
..as a sidenote, you usually tune your trigger to c, not f (despite its name).
I don't know anyone who tunes their F trigger to C...
There seem to be two approaches. One is to tune for b->f to be able to play the F on first position.
The other (and at least over here in germany seemingly more common) way is to tune f->c, so the c on 1st is in tune. This makes the F too flat to really play on 1st, but we can play that on 6th anyway. The two advantages are, that we can play the - for tenor more common - c without adjustment and we don't lose the C on deep 7th, in case we really need to play down there ;).
Hi Trent, do you have any idea why keyed brass is reputed to be hard to play in tune? What's throwing it off?
Did you even watch the video?
Add a valve, add a problem. With a five-valve tuba, the chromatic range above the first open harmonic is theoretically possible, but boy can that become a knuckle twister, and each exotic valve combination is an imperfect solution. Sometimes, you do have to wonder why we do what we do.
So are you saying that whenever doing notes that we usually play with first and second valves we should be doing them with 3rd
With the exception of octave harmonics and assuming your instrument is tuned to chromatic notes, no harmonic on any instrument lands exactly on any note in the chromatic scale. More generally, no harmonic is a note in the chromatic scale. And even so, no harmonic matches any harmonic of any note in the chromatic scale. So, apart from octave harmonics, harmonics and chromatic notes are mutually exclusive.
Is that not what the slide adjusters on valves 1 and 3 are are for? I NEVER see anyone use them and not even any book I have mentions them.
Could a euphonium tuning slide trigger in combination with a compensating system help alleviate some of these issues?
Sure! That's what they are for.
my 3rd tuning valve for my Bb trumpet keep's sliding off... i've wiped the slide it's self and it still slides off... any help???
Wrap a bobble or elastic band around the valve casing and third slide ring
the fretboard is a great way of explaining it, but on an actual guitar the fretboard has the same issues with notes being out of tune. the solution to that being a "true temperament" guitar. as someone brand new to brass, this was very helpful!
"Compensating" instruments are an attempt at mimicking a "true temperament" keyboard
Great explanation. Just one minor correction: the third valve is (or at least should be) tuned so that notes played with the 2+3 fingering are in tune. That's why when you try to play an E on just 3rd, it always sounds slightly flat.
So this is why 1+2 is preferred over solo 3? Solo 3 can't get a perfect E without lip bend? But it sound like 1+2 is off anyway as well so both would have the exact same issue, no? I guess it just depends which is more flat...
@@SelfPropelledDestiny I thought I replied to this comment already, but it's not showing up so ig I'll type it again.
Good question. If you crunch the numbers, you find that if you're going for 3 perfect semitones, then the 1+2 fingering is 10.6 cents too sharp, and the 3 fingering is 16.3 semitones too flat. This means that 1+2 is slightly more in tune than 3.
It's also significantly easier to bend notes downwards than it is to bend them up. Most players will subconsciously bend 1+2 down to make it in tune without even realising it, since it's so close. This works just fine, but it isn't great for the stamina so I like to extend my 1st valve tuning slide slightly whenever I play 1+2.
On a lot of instruments, the A above the stave especially is quite sharp. This is why a lot of players like to play that note on just 3; it makes it more in tune. This depends on your instrument though. In fact, this kind of thing can happen for any note, which is why it's worth carefully going through every note with a tuner to find which fingerings are the most in tune for your instrument. For most notes you'll find that the standard fingering is best, but you'll occasionally find an alternative one that works better. I'm actually a sop player, so about half the notes I play are on alternative fingerings!
@@kaiblack4489 Thanks for the response! That's all very enlightening. One question there: That high A would be the 8th harmonic in the 1+2 position, but I was under the impression that all octaves were fairly in-tune. Is the 8th harmonic normally sharp?
@@SelfPropelledDestiny It's all a bit up in the air when you get that high, but yes it's often a bit sharp. On my old trumpet I used to play top Cs on 1st valve.
I am back to ask another question. If the 3rd valve is tuned so that 2+3 is in tune (concert F#, C#, F#...), then why does everybody say you really need to use your 3rd valve slide on those notes? I have heard as much as halfway open on the 1+3 fingering and fully open on the 2+3 fingering. What am I missing?
Thank you! I wish they had taught this in Class Brass in college!
What's the outro song?
What I don't quite understand is why the semitones are "further apart" if you go lower on the fretboard... Can anyone explain?
how do you make your tuning slide slippy as a trombone slide??
Is the 2 3 combination flat? How much? Thanks for the excellent video.
Usually, you’re supposed to tune your third valve so that the 2-3 fingering is in tune.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the tuning-slide ring on the 3rd valve tubing of most trumpets and cornets.
Agree. And also lipping notes into tune. It's not part of the design of the instrument, but it is the way the problem is solved in practice.
Why do players say one horn plays more in tune than another? Aside from making sure each valve and associated added tubing are the proper mathematical length, are there things the instrument designers can do to bring horns more in tune?
Out of tune instruments are a result of bad manufacturing processes, not the other way round
A brass instrument with eleven valves would somewhat solve the problem, where each valve would handle a specific harmonic series, but tuning it would be a nightmare, and retuning it as it warms up or cools would keep the player busier than a one armed paperhanger. And I don't personally know many people with eleven fingers.
I'm a horn player and I'm curious how this relates to the horn. Because it can tune more valve combinations than other instruments, I'm wondering if it might be more in tune than others.
The horn is strange because it's a very long instrument but has a relatively thin bore and small mouthpiece (considering it's the same length as a triggered trombone). This means that it naturally plays way higher on its natural range than any other common brass instrument would, meaning that the harmonic partials are much closer together in the general playing range. To add to this, there is also the trigger which substitutes the valves of the horn for a set a perfect 4th higher, adding additional variety to the fingering. As if that wasn't enough, the performance practice of inserting the hand in the bell (for tuning, tone, etc), which historically allowed players to play a full diatonic scale complicates things even further. In summary, the French Horn is an absolute monster.
I've played trumpet for a gazillion years and understand all the notes that are sharp or flat on my horn - but never really WHY that is so. I had an understanding about harmonics, but never really thought about that in terms of slide lengths on valves. The guitar fret board instantly made that clear. You should have ended this video with the use of saddles, rings and triggers on the 1st and 3rd valves - that would have tied it up nicely.
I see trumpets with first and third valves with finger rings to tune those valves, but i never see anyone use them. Why??
I’m very late to this video, but why is it that pressing the first and second valves is used? Wouldn’t it be more tuneful to use just the third valve?
The third is normally (or so I understand it and use it) tuned flat to be sort-of in tune when playing 13.
So what do we do, lip it?
How sharp will you be if you pressed all 4 valves down at once?
Amen! That's why we tuba players have to constantly move the tuning slides as we play, to increase or decrease the total length of tubing in play, to get each note in tune. It's almost like playing a trombone with valves and multiple slides.
I'm pretty sure the 3rd valve is NOT tuned to be used alone.
That would be a pretty dumb design, since it's not being used alone anyway.
AFAIK it's designed so that the 2+3 combination is in tune ( 4 semitones )
whith the fingering of brass instruments, you almost never press the 3rd valve alone, and instead the 1st and 2nd. but the 3rd is in tune, and the 1st and 2nd together are not, as you said in te video. so why do we use the 1st and 2nd valves together if they are out of tune?
I guess brass player don't realize the sax easily can play the overtone series from various fundamentals and is the basis for extending the instruments range a couple of octives above the highest keyed note.
This is all true, if you believe that even tempered tuning is the only real form of tuning.
I’m a trombone player should I just leave the video
No
Amen
No, you understand how to use your instrument in a way all the other ones can't.
Shouldn’t the graph of intervals go in the opposite direction? As in higher at the start and less high at the end because the distance between notes gets smaller as you get higher
No. Because that wasn't a graph about distance of each harmonic relative to a conventional scale but about frequency of each harmonic in Hertz
@@joashchechet1675 actually we were both wrong. That graph isn't about harmonics at all cuz right at the top it says "frequency of notes on the piano". Oops lol
Right now, as I'm watching this video. The highest harmonic I can reach is the sixth Harmonic the g, but it is awfully sharp.
You're definitely simplifying things greatly here. You didn't even touch at all on the effects of conical vs cylindrical bore, or changes in bore type/taper through the tube length. If I remember correctly, the mostly cylindrical bore brass instruments, such as trumpet, are actually based on only the odd harmonics of the harmonic series, but they have been skewed to mostly sound like the normal odd and even harmonics; so "actual 1"->1, "actual 3"->2, "actual 5"->3, etc. The main elements that do the skewing are the bell flair, which sharpens the lower harmonics, and the mouthpiece, which flattens the higher harmonics. One red herring of this skewing of the odd series, is that the 1st harmonic is almost always way off. This is a trade off to have the other harmonics more in tune, since the pedal range is used so much less often. As you move to the mostly conical bore instruments, such as french horn or tuba, then you're actually dealing with the full harmonic series, both even and odd, and that's why the pedal notes are far more in tune for those instruments.
Hi Greg, thanks for your comment. I'm not too sure whether you're right though. I don't think the conical vs cylindrical aspect has quite as dramatic an affect on the harmonic series as you've stated. The thing that makes the even numbered harmonics disappear is whether the tube is open at the end or closed. Since brass instruments only have one exit for the sound to go then they're therefore an open ended cylinder they naturally have all of the harmonics available to them. The proof is this: trombones and baritones are mostly cylindrical instruments, and yet the pedal notes are just as in tune as they are on a tuba. The BBb contrabass trombone I have is a very cylindrical instrument, yet the pedals are just as in tune as a tuba.
You can go even beyond that and also consider the expansion and vibration differences across different alloys, what sort of changes each plating does to the resonance of the base metal and so on. Almost everything has a variance that will affect how the instruments sounds, which is why instrument tone can never be an exact science.
great overview.... but you should not consider equal step tuning to be the best possible intonation. it is not. The perfect pitch is the harmonic scale... the only disadvantage is, that is does not work well in all keys.... but in C major chord, played with three trumpets , the e in the middle sounds perfect, due to the fact that it is flatter than the equal step tuned e which is to sharp.
Trent, please explain why European tubas and baritones are manufactured with a different pitch from. for example, those made in the U.S. I bought one made in Germany and couldn't play it in my U.S. community band because it was sharp.
Robert Jann Perhaps they were tuned at a different frequency. A = 440 Hz is usually the standard, but that can vary from place to place, and perhaps that's what happened.
Yes, they are manufactured to a different frequency. But why? They are useless to play in any band that has instruments not made the same way. You'd think, for example, that a German manufacturer would be happier making only one frequency for use everywhere. I'd be interested in the history of this and where and when the divergence took place. Anyway, it fools a lot of people who buy a horn in the U.S. and can't play it in an ensemble here.
Robert Jann ah I see what you mean. Germany was historically bad for this. Back in 1600s Germany, A was anywhere from the 500s to the upper 300s, there really was no set number. Many composers of the time had a favored number they used as A, and they were typically lower than 440. Through history, all over Europe, the pitch was changed and not standardized and still, although mostly standardized, some custom companies and artisans choose their hertz level. A link I find helpful is this one: www.wam.hr/sadrzaj/us/Cavanagh_440Hz.pdf hope this helps!
thanks
There was no international standard until the early 20th century. And in the 19th century, everyone was lower than A 440 in various degrees. Originally, it didn't matter, because people played in their home town or not at all. To make it more confusing, bands played at a different pitch than orchestras, so instruments that worked for one in the same country wouldn't work for the other. Then again, band players weren't applying for jobs in orchestras.
Why don't brass instruments read in concert pitch? I don't understand why "C" is actually "Bb"
Guys? Should I be using my 3rd valve in stead of 1st and 2nd combined? Have I been playing wrong all this time?
As a trombonist that's about to pick up euphonium, I'm kind of wondering about this too.
I remember my second valve in my trumpet was broke to high hell, so I used the third valve instead and it worked!
The reason brass players typically use 1+2 rather than 3 has to do with playing notes within phrases. If you start playing a note with the first valve, and then go to the third valve, you need to lift 1 and depress three. If you use 1+2 instead, you only have to press down 2 for the second note.
Brass players figured out that it's easier to lip a note into tune on the fly than to do the extra up-down fingering to get the 'correct' pitch.
Very enlighting. Thank you
As a trombonist, your ear should naturally cause you to 'lip' the bad notes into tune without even realizing it. My old band director was a great pro trumpet player, and he said that when he taught kids to play, he wouldn't even tell them about this problem - he'd just hope their ears would naturally catch the poor intonation and adjust without even knowing it.