Counterpicking space as opposed to counterpicking a hero probably feels better for the player base in 99.9% of cases. “I swapped to Winston and they automatically went reaper bastion hog” is a lot easier for people to have personal issues with as a player
@@ReaveIdonowould you prefer the meta to be a dark souls DLC type boss that turns you into a masochist , or 2 hack n slash bosses every season where you atleast have fun fighting them ?
While I do agree with this take. I have a feeling this could be some honeymoon phase stuff going on with 6v6. Once adding in the whole player base instead of these small testings, then probably other issues that folks didn't think of in 6v6 could arise. Just a food for thought.
@@jaysellers0116v6 won’t be perfect, it’ll have issues. But nothing can be worse than 5v5, this format blows bro. 6v6 in its worst states were better imo
@@jaysellers011 The issues of 6v6 are already widely known, but the 6v6 defenders just want to forget the obligation of having to play NOT what you want, but what the team needs. It's like having "team-picking " instead of counter-picking (the catch is that counter-picking still existed in 6v6)
Ball has to be literally invincible in 5v5 to be able to do anything, which just sucks. I liked characters being killable but still being able to kill people.
@@Veilure depends, when it first came out good but how he's the only tank that even though he doesn't die it's hard for him to kill people unlike in ow1
I just couldn't adapt tbh, ball was my main in OW1 too and I really struggled when it all changed. Ball was never intended to be in a 5v5 format and it is ridiculous this people didn't take notice of such an evident feature of a character's identity and just fuck around with it. It just got boring, I ended up playing OpenQ only to feel old ball vibes and finally just uninstall and switched to Deadlock. Ball is no more for me because of this, 6v6 is the only thing that can actually save this game. Ill be coming back, if ball comes back.
@@BrofUJu Admitting what? 5v5 being better than 6v6? Hell naw im confident even a bad version of 6v6 is more enjoyable than current 5v5, i would rather play Dead OW1 than current OW2
I find it weird how people keep saying "6v6 is team, 5v5 is individual", I have never felt more forced to stay with my team than in overwatch 2. Tanks have such ludicrous amounts of health and there's so many sustain and get-out-of-jail-free abilities that it's almost impossible to kill anything unless you're coordinating at all times.
Essentially what I'm hearing is... All the tanks that the community hates when they are meta or "good" are not good in 6v6... Mauga being niche... Hog being borderline niche or even throw.... Orisa being just bad.... Sounds like a win-win to me. Not to mention I will never complain about poke being hard... Such a boring playstyle
@@CoachSpilo agreed I've played a lot of ram in the code and there is some solid potential for him to be different and unique from rein for example in the melee brawler space
There doesn't need to be any sacrifice if blizzard do this right, but yeah I'd take awful balance any day just to see anything close to old overwatch 1 now
This probably going to be a weird take but the Space "Problem" you brought up is actually one of the reasons I really miss overwatch 1. I miss grinding for space as a team to push out tanks and overcome choke points. And to me it always felt great to finally break a choke and be rewarded with new sightlines and space.
I can't believe so many people agree with this. You seriously liked standing at the same choke for multiple minutes just trying to break through? Overwatch 2 gives so many more options to push the objective. I can't imagine missing grinding out chokepoints
6v6 was such a beautiful experience when you weren't fighting in a choke. Character design definitely had a lot to do with the failures Ow1 had, but i really think map design is the #1 deciding factor of whether or not its going to feel better in the long run to switch to 6v6. I am willing to bet gamemodes like Push and Flashpoint would actually be quite good in 6v6, gonna have to try it out later
I doubt it. OW1 required you to play clumped up. I doubt the openness of those modes will be able to be explored when the 2nd tank just jumps you and kills you.
@ReaveIdono yeah i mean it depends on how coordinated both the teams are, i dont think it would be very wise to take angles alone, which is why its pretty convenient that your second tank can also just come over and stop their second tank from killing you.
@closeenoughxp2662 If your 2nd tank Abandons their Main tank to try and save you from their 2nd tank you other teammates will be overrun in the 4v5. This is why clumped up was the optimal play of OW1 or just let that teammate that isnthrowing just die on the angle.
@@ReaveIdono Do dps in OW2 that aren't named Widowmaker/Hanzo have big flank impact with all the increased health? I've felt flanking far less impactful unless you duo flank since s9. I don't actively play the game rn so idk. Seems to me like the direction they took 5v5 encourages grouping up all the same.
@ReaveIdono im kinda confused at your reasoning because if 1 squishy alone leaves to flank and meets a tank on the off angle, and your 2nd tank comes to meet them then that fight is a 2v1 which is much more likely to end faster than a 4v5, so if you're peeling at the right times you can effectively rejoin that 4v5 and make it a 6v5, or at the very least if one teammate dies in the clump you'll come back at an even 5v5. Most of the time you didnt wanna play in a "deathball" (thats the og slang for what youre talking about) because you allow the enemy to surround you.
11:28 "Do you prefer: Team coordination vs. Individual Agency?" is, in my opinion, a VERY important point and probably the main issue players have with "the opposite" format. In a perfect world, we would have "Teamwatch" and "Individualwatch"-not one game trying to force very different styles on everyone. To me personally, I prefer the team-based style way more because there are very few shooters doing that now. Adding the solid base of the game (gameplay, stability, feel, etc.) and how different the game can be with each role, the alternatives are zero (for now). If I want to make individual plays, I'll fire up one of the 15 other titles in my game library that allow me to do the ACE of the day.
couldnt have said it better myself. im also not the best mechanically (some days i can pop off but thats besides the point) so i prefer the slower team work style gameplay of OW1
Team based hero shooter was the premise of Overwatch. OW2 neutered both key aspects and moved the game closer to a generic multiplayer first person shooter. Strong abilities, narrowly defined kits instead of designing each hero to be a generalist, emphasis on effective use of cooldowns and team coordination, basically make Overwatch Overwatch again.
Yknow what? Imma say it 5v5 does NOT offer more individual agency especially for dps because stats and healing are so high. Rarely anyone is vulnerable and mistakes that the tank or supports make matter WAY less than in 6v6
@@TheFarslayer facts, not only that but as the tank you just mostly have to match the other tank or they run over your team lol so not much agency there (obviously you don't have to completely that's like the good tanks right now with Orisa, Hog and Mauga)
@@TheFarslayerthe supports are the most vulnerable. Other DPS can be that depends but also the supports are your main target anyway. Like sure tank bad. But if the supports are good shit he living.
Blizzard solved 6v6 with ow2 , they removed orisas shield , they 'almost' balanced brig , they added WAY MORE FUN Tanks to that role (Ram, Jq, doom) , they added more flex , main AND MORE IMPORTANTLY FUN supports , they almost removed every 1 shot combo (but slowly are bringing it back ?!?!?) , but they did all of this in a 5v5 format 🤦🏻♂️
@@wisp9856 bro your statement would be correct 2 to 3 seasons ago , but the amount of small and miniscule buffs are adding up in a way that only the pros and OTPS realize .(forgive me for bad english)
I also think it’s a good thing that you have to counter pick the space more than the tank because that is more of a higher elo thing anyway, after all it’s a lot easier to understand what heroes counter what tank than it is to understand what heroes are better in certain parts of certain maps
IMO this is an underrated point. The hero-based counterpicking hurts lower mmr players more, which are the casuals. Pros have always picked based on space (watch any circuit royale gameplay, its almost always Sigma no matter who the strongest tank is at the moment) and since space is already underutilized by lower mmr, it allows them to play whatever especially since they were already casual to begin with.
The quote "More team coordinated taking space (6v6) or do you prefer the individual impact (5v5)" The whole talk about the tanks being space-makers is literally what made the game good. You couldn't just waltz in as a dps, because you'd get punished. You had to rely on your team to make plays so you could make plays. If the playstyle you prefer is "i shoot thats why I win" then you need to play CoD or Battlefield. This isn't those games. I'll take 6v6 any day of the week. I played that daily for over 6 years but couldn't last 6 months in OW2.
Blizzard’s solution to metas that they don’t know how to balance is to remove options. First, they didn’t know how to balance GOATS, so they removed the option to play it (by adding Role Queue). Then, they didn’t know how to balance double shield, so they removed the option to play it (by removing 1 tank from each team). Regardless of if these changes were healthy for the game, it’s a ridiculous game balance philosophy.
They tried to balance dive first, which is how we got goats. We had a dive meta for two years and they tried to solve it with brig. Their solution previously was always to just jam something into a hero that did everything. We had one of the greatest 6v6 metas ever right before they dropped OW2 (ball zen dive), too :(
@@jamieharrison417 I still don't understand how they thought making one character that can counter an entire team comp was a good idea. If they wanted to tone down dive it would of just taken a few nerfs. 1. Winston. Revert the buff that his CD begins when bubble is dropped or increase the CD. 2. DVa put DM back to a CD. its too strong of an ability to be on a resource when she wants it. 3. Nerf tracer because this was around the time they refused to tone tracer down under any circumstance. They made brig before they nerfed tracer which was wild. I would of made pulse bomb 200 damage back then with maybe an increase in recall CD or lowering her damage.
@@ReaveIdonoand bad players should be punished and die when they're playing bad??? 5v5 Giga-Tanks are such stat demons that they survive not because of skill but simply because they passively have more HP and DR compared to you.
@@ReaveIdono cap, with the lower health pools you can play tank busters like reaper and really put a lot of pressure of them assuming you're on the right map
Unless half of the DPS players decide to become permanent tank one tricks after 6v6, it will fail. So tell your local Tracer player to start learning Reinhardt buddy.
@@Tabako-san I meant the balance being bad but yeah that'll be an issue. I was a tank main from ow1 until recently, now I main dps but play characters like Mei and venture like how I would an off tank so maybe there are others like me who can help with that
As a Dva main, this is why I love playing open queue. Once you get out of metal ranks, everyone plays 3-0-2 or, more rarely, 2-1-2. She feels SO incredible with another tank.
I legitimately go and one-trick off-tank in open Q sometimes, it's so fun. Too bad I'm a QP warrior and I can almost guarantee I'll never get a decent main tank, though. Tank queues are going to be ridiculously long in the 6v6 experiment, I fear.
@@mage3690 if your tank role queue rank is gold or above, I strongly recommend giving ranked open queue a try instead of QP then. Most people seem to agree that your open queue rank tends to be one full rank above your roll queue rank. In open queue plat and above, like I mentioned, it's all 3-0-2 or 2-1-2 with generally pretty synergized tank lineups and team comps. Once I got to diamond, I only see someone playing DPS in 1 out of 10 games, maybe even less. It's glorious.
So the caveat throughout this that gets mentioned at the beginning, is the lack of adequate adjustments that the workshop can make; animations/visuals are a huge contributor to balanced hero design and there's a lot of evidence in OW2 that these have largely been reduced both as a priority and structural possibility. More complex systems/mechanics are also a huge limitation. Taking any mode with a grain of salt is a given, but it should be noted that with the addition of a more full engine and it's allowances, there will be a lot more options mechanically as well as balance-wise, that smooths a lot of what Spilo mentions in the video, which the Devs would have access too. That said, a few of the heroes listed as problems (mainly within Tank, though there's a bunch in DPS and Support as well) could be re-tooled toward the OW1 design structure. Major problem there is the lack of Dev experience with OW1, given the majority seem to be mostly OW2 devs. I wouldn't really...expect the first playtest of 6v6 that comes out to be the end all one to judge the format on. If they set it up as a series of Betas that directly target various obstacles in isolation, it'll probably go a lot smoother and set the playerbase's expectations to a more reasonable baseline.
This is a really eye opening video, I hope a lot of people and the devs especially, get the right info out of it. I especially liked the mention of 6v6 flash point here 9:20 , interesting stuff . The worst thing that could happen would be for the devs to bring in 6v6, barely make any adjustments and let it flop and say "Hey we tried". On the other hand, regardless of the format, the "bad apple" tanks as mentioned in the video, need to be looked at and I'm glad this actually a problem even in 6v6 because it highlights how terrible hero design brings the game down by a lot.
One thing that has to be emphasized is that this is a very controlled environment, with people playing that are a part of the same community and they know they're being watched and analyzed by a freak OW coach. It will be interesting how new players will adjust to being held hostage by their tankline. I just hope that either the devs take the strengths of 5v5 and implement into 6v6 or take the strengths of 6v6 and put them into 5v5. Tanks in 5v5 don't have to have giga health pools that absorb all damage. 6v6 doesn't have to always be a deathball of bodies bumbling through chokes and only getting picks through random spam or ult dumping. If the devs learn the right lessons, either game format can be the best version of the game (my opinion).
The strength of 6v6 is the tank synergy allowing for a main and off tank role to work around a team dynamic. That can’t exist in 5v5 because two tanks can’t exist in 5v5.
If two tanks or a two tank meta (in 5v5) becomes a thing again there has to be tools in game to help deal with the two tanks abilities. An item shop like the one in paladins would help a ton imo, in paladins if the enemy tanks are running a shield heavy composition for example you can buy an item called wrecker that allows you to deal more damage to shields with your primary weapon. The item shop makes dealing with two tanks far more tolerable.
@@lukeaustin4465 I hear you, but I’m not interested in paladins, I’m interested in OW and that is a fundamentally different game design than OW. I’d rather just pick the right tools (comp/characters) for the job.
@@Shortstop803 the devs already copied the reduced healing passive from Paladins and they increased hp pools, what's stopping them from going the full mile?
I tested it and as expected, it was definitively more fun. It felt like a team game again with 5 different teammates, playstyles more diversity in terms of gameplay options, more explosive pop-off moments. 5v5 seems stale, haa boring matchups, etc.
"More explosive pop-off moments" meaning waiting half the match for ult combos, but non stop activity in 5v5 seems stale to you, how does that even make sense.
@@Hooklamat0r 6v6 has a natural ebb and flow that isnt necessarily present in the 5v5 format, the only moments of downtime in 5v5 tend to be during the frustration of waiting for respawn. For the average player having time with control of your character in which you can assess a situation without frustration that is a much more desirable experience. In addition trying tank in and of itself in 5v5 is much more punishing than it ever was in 6v6, if you fail in a moment more often than not the entire team fails with you in 5v5. That responsibility for a new player or for someone new to the role in toxicwatch of today just isnt a healthy introduction to the role and can turn someone off of it permanently. 5v5 feels like it's got too much going on in a bad way with too short of a time to adjust. 6v6 opens up time to approach a role healthily.
@@Hooklamat0rall 10 ults popping instead of strategic use of ults becomes insanely stale. I try to talk with my team to limit ult usage. Then its ult dominoes...
@@Hooklamat0r lol the team that gets the first pick in 5v5 wins way more and its a lot harder to come back, in 6v6 u can always come back from it with and without ults
Thanks so much for doing this! It's a breath of fresh air to see someone coming at this debate from an objective point of view--as much as I miss OW1 and admittedly love watching folks dog on OW2 as a guilty pleasure, I recognize that every debate has two sides and I'd be doing the game I loved a disservice not to hear out folks with informed points of view on the other side of the aisle from me.
Chro has a very good point about why tanks will always be scary, and it’s the fact that overwatch is a point-based gamemode. the fact that there is a point means you have to have a player alive on the point, and tanks are the best at both getting there and staying there. The peak of goats meta was 3 tanks simply moving to the point and refusing to die, and killing anyone who touched point. Like a goats v non-goats matchup consisted of the goats moving on to point and the non-goats rotating, poking, attempting to pick, draw resources, take angles and everything else you can do to players out in the open of the point, but the AOE heals and mitigation at the time simply allowed them to sit on point
Glad they are experimenting 6v6, I really enjoyed the concept of off tanks in ow1 and losing the complexity of tank combos took a lot of fun out of tanking for me to the point that I mostly play support now. Thinking about that coming back gets me excited about combos that didn't exist before like rein/queen, sigma/mauga and doom/monkey that I think would be a lot of fun to play with and against. But also I think some heroes would simply need a complete rework to continue existing in the game, like orisa and ramatra, but honestly I think even in current ow2 those characters don't fit in well.
imo its not just counterpicking space is healthier but a lot of why i preferred 6v6 is the various teamcomps you could play/craft/experiment with and the teamcomps having more of a character opposed to ow2 where teamcomps often feel all the same, they just swap the tank or 1 of the dps and thats it
The slower pace of OW1 was way better than the "peek and you get insta-killed" turbo-pace of OW2. OW1 was may more tactical and strategic. OW2 is just "can you aim well?"
Spilo jumping into this conversation is like a breath of fresh air. I really don't care what happens to OW because I don't play anymore, but I hope it is good for you all that keep playing.
having the right hero for a comp/map to be able to advance is a much healthier form of rock paper scissors than the entire lobby revolving around 2 solo tanks... it also points back to the hero and map design problems much more than only the arbitrary format. the asymmetrical nature of the tank role is a lot healthier in a system where there is overall much more parity between the roles in general. spacing and balance issues can be massaged and shifted through the design or maps, objectives, and hero kits a lot more than you can fine tune or fix these problems with a hard format limitation. Even systems like role q are to be debated (not with blizz balancing lol) but IMO that change has a lot more reasons to exist and is much more defendable than rather harsh, convenient, and lazy format changes like 5v5 or healthpools and hotboxes being simplified and buffed.
Everything I heard sounded in favor of 6v6. The characters actually doing the role they were designed for. Positioning and teamwork mattering in a team game. Higher highs. Higher highs are what make you want to play the game. No one wants to play something middiling.
OW1 didn't have slow patches, they were actually really fast. They just didn't fkn put them anywhere 70% of the time! Mei had a freezing rate change in season 2, no-one knew about it. Pharah got silent nerfed jetpack duration when she wasn't allowed to surf rooftops anymore. When Genji's slingshot was removed, they made his hitbox larger. Loads of stuff that has never appeared anywhere in patch notes, but drastically change viability. Usually when they change something else in the kit, but it's a bug so it didn't deserve to be in a patch note
1:30 You know what I just realised, if Hanzo dragon strike could destroy deployables such as turrets and immorts, this sustain comp would be terrible = no double shield. Why tf did bliz not do that, instead of buffing reaper and moira as the answer.
The “team coordination vs. individual agency” seems like a bit of a misreading of trade offs, or downplaying 5v5’s pitfalls. 5v5 feels like there is more individual RESPONSIBILITY, but not agency. I feel this is largely caused by tank balance which has created a nebulous ‘not safe zone’ due to their mobility and QoL buffs that disincentivises average players from threatening flanks. A tank could turn up and blow them up with 0 counter play options. The uncertain threat (empowered punch, orisa spear, ram slow + form, rein charge cancels, dva heat seeking missile, roadhog) results in a ‘hold all cooldowns and stalemate’ gameplay loop. The nail that sticks out gets smacked down unless it has suzu. I miss the clear cut matchups and requisite chaos to HAVE agency in the game. If the zarya has one self bubble, the options are clear to most players. The “more team play” aspect also feels a bit of a wash to me as a 5v5 tank enjoyer. I am at the mercy of a poke solution or adequate use of the flanks for my plays to have any meaning. As a DPS, if I’m the only one with a read on the available space on my team, I die for it. Most if not all proactivity requires such a brute-force ‘between the lines’ reading of every situation, and we all end up playing the sediment that sinks to the bottom by sitting back, shooting, holding cooldowns and hoping someone on the enemy team sticks out like a nail. I don’t wanna downplay the potential stifling of agency by an opposing tank combo, but at best this presents as a side-grade, where the end result is: relative agency by design is the same, but the format affords a net buff to it by having more players and more winnable duels across the board.
As a DPS player I have way more agency to make plays in 5v5 just by sheer virtue of there not being a tank defending every angle I try to attack. Sure if you do encounter the tank they're gonna be scarier to fight than in 6v6, but it's easy to avoid the tank by just taking off angles. In 6v6 you're almost always forced to go through one of the tanks, which feels shitty.
I feel like a lot of peoples experience with 6v6 has been tainted because of the last few years of OW 1 just being a stale meta with very little balance changes. 2 tanks wasn't the problem, the problem was the supports that enabled the bring tank play style. Orisa and sig on their own are not good at dealing with off angles, or dive, as they are both poke tanks with shields. They were only enabled by the two deceptively tanks and high sustain supports like brig and bap, making those tanks very hard to kill, and making the backline very hard to dive. If not for the unhealthy direction they took support in OW 1, tanks at different points of the game (each tank had their moments of unbalanced toxicity to go up against), are a lot less annoying to kill than you would think. Alot of those tanks can be blown up by one dps if caught out and had decently long cool down times on their abilities, making them have more downtime and more duel able. Ex. Back then Dva was good at contesting space, especially high ground but assuming you were playing mccree or another dps, you can easily pressure her off of you by landing 3 headshots mech, which wasn't hard to do, as tank passive wasn't a thing. Now if a dva dives you (and you don't have a support or someone to bail you out), you need many more headshots to scare her off, but with the addition of rockets, she can literally dm up to you while rocketing and kill you with a melee afterwards. You cannot fight tanks directly in OW2, you have to avoid them or go for them only when they are really low, in OW 1 you can atleast duel them, albeit it wasn't easy.
seeing the footage from this playtesting is great. seeing tanks with much lower HP values feels like "home" to me as someone who has been playing OW since 2016 on day 1!!!!!!!! I love 6v6. I prefer the trade-offs that come with 6v6. It's definitely my preferred format.
18:05 “very high highs and very low lows” is perhaps the best description of OW1 ever. Sometimes it was the best and most fun game ever made and other times it was the most frustrating and unfun games ever. For me, as someone who’s been playing since day 1, I prefer that style over OW2’s middle of the road, ‘meh it’s alright’ style. (I suspect this is common in the community with some feeling the way I do and the other half not. I think the most obvious and effective solution is to just have 2 quick play modes - one 5v5 with its balance and heroes etc and then 6v6 with its equivalent.)
But 5v5 isn’t more consistent it’s a constant balance shift between good characters and dog shit. 6v6 was pretty well balanced until Moth meta and than double shield which was the worst of the 6v6 metas. With 6v6 the balance solutions are pretty simple and almost all of the Meta shifts where because of support balance. With 5v5 there’s really no solution to the balance problem so all they can really do is just massive shifts to at least keep the imbalanced game interesting.
I will never go back to 6v6. The move to 5v5 was the only good move of OW2. OW1 majority of the time was just shooting at shields until ultimates came out and then death balling. I get the frustration that now tanks are super important for a team to win, but it still is way better than the sloggy gameplay of before
If I don't trust people in play gamemodes in 5v5 to even play Push correctly, I definitely don't trust my cotank in 6v6 to play correctly. Hell, I learned Winston back in 2017 strictly because I played Zarya and everyone wanted to play Hog in Dive meta. The amount of terrible tank synergies, even after years of play, was aggravating. Bad tank synergy made tanking feel bad and good tank synergy made tanking feel good but SUFFOCATING for dps and supports (especially if your team had bad tank synergy)
You are wrong, tanks were not boosted as they are now. I could kill a winston with ONLY 2 HEADSHOTS + 1 body shot as Hanzo, and the fact I had 2 tanks taking care of the frontline forced him think twice before brainlessly jump at me. I feel WAY WAY more suffocated playing against one 700Hp target with armour buffs, headshot reduction and only 1 ally tank (usually in the frontline) to protect me.
Hog just needs to be removed. Awful character all around. If he wasn’t an option to select then you would have another co tank and therefore a much better experience.
@@commentbot9510 - Ashe took 3 - Mei took 3 and 1 sec spread - Reaper took 2 and 1 body shot - Widow took 2 and a spread - Cree took 2 fan the hammer - Hog took 2 You know nothing, as the majority nowadays talking about this topic.
I’ve played 6v6 customs sporadically in the last few months, and the one thing that’s always stuck with me, as somebody who didn’t play overwatch 1, is that support just feels kind of boring in comparison to 5v5. Every support apart from zen, Lucio, Brig and to a lesser extent Illari have to spend way more of their time pocketing and less time making plays. My overall experience was kind of the opposite of “5v5 is more deathmatchy.” The 6v6 games I played felt much closer to tf2 or another classic arena shooter in terms of the fights that were happening than 5v5 does. It felt less coordinated, not more; but maybe that had to do with who I played with. I also wasn’t playing in lobbies that ran your s9 health changes, so that might’ve had an influence.
well, the role of supports in overwatch 1 orginally was that, you role was to heal, but as time went on, they started to make supports stronger, and in overwatch 2, because they removed a tank, they needed to make supports stronger so they couldn't get dived so easily, and the role slowly started to shift into what is now, a dps that can heal
As a Tank player *your* ability to make SOME plays at SOME points shouldn't come at the expense of me being able to make zero plays at any point. ALL players should be allowed to have fun and 1 guy being the sacrificial lamb to the altar of misery for his role so 4 other people FEEL (because its not even true) like they've got "more angles and playmaking" is a dog shit bargain. 5v5 was made because it was *assumed* a semi permanent, replayable PVE would come with it and thus "split the playerbase" The PVE didn't happen, so 5v5 should just flat out fucking die with the PVE that never was. No one asked for 5v5 or this cash grab sequel.
@@ld1449 you’re being extremely hyperbolic, here. Tank is not as bad as you’re making it out to be in 5v5. And tank is my most played role as well because I flex-queue. Tanks being able to make “zero plays at any point” is massively overstating it. Sure, there are times when the optimal plan is to wait until you have an advantage to make a move; but that’s something every role has to do. It’s called timing, and it’s a skill. And personally, the main tank playmaking aspect doesn’t really feel much different in 6v6. Running out trying to force a play is still going to get you killed.
@@wswann34tanking is worse in 6v6. In 5v5 you’re in control, in 6v6 you’re in constant conflict with some other tank that doesn’t work well with you. Better coordinate with him or lose!
I gave on on OW a while ago, but I still enjoy your videos. I have always been interested in design, balance, and strategy of competitive gaming. A passion we share. This was an interesting conversation. Id like to see a 6v6 with a more defined "main tank" and "off tank" where off tanks are their own category instead of picking a 2nd tank. They would be something of a hybrid tank/sup/dps that doesn't excel in any one area but capable of doing a little bit of everything. I think it would address many of the issues you talk about in your videos. The main issue with double tanks is the lack of space and ability to take space. The main issue with solo tank is solo tank focus and raid boss. Having an actual 4th role that isnt as tanky and not as good at holding space alone, but still survivable enough to help take some pressure off the main tank would be a fun adjustment to try.
Basically what I took away from this is that hero design and hero balance is not what determines game balance and quality. Map design is more important and a more effective approach to balance the game. If defensive power positions are oppressive then instead of changing the heroes to make them less/more effective at taking/holding space they should change the map and game rules to adjust the value those positions provide.
As someone who peaked GM in ow1 (the alive seasons) I just don't enjoy solo tanking. I can still do it well, but it's more stressful with the sole responsibility. On the flipside if you get a dud tank as a dps/sup, it can feel as though the game is over from the start
Tanks being the role that controls space is literally what sets Overwatch apart from other hero shooters. It's the one trait that no other hero shooter has nailed down properly.
Loved the video. You rarely see such a critical approach on 5v5 vs 6v6. Usually it's just "ougghhh counter picking, tank synergy ougghhh 5v5 so baaaad". I've never played 6v6 but regardless of it's challenges, I'm excited to try it once it releases
I was a top 500 tank player is OW1 seasons 3/4, Dva main. Loved being an off tank. Stopped playing around when ball came out. Just got into OW2, I definitely preferred playing tank in 1, prefer DPS and support in OW2 (individual impact does feel greater in these roles than tank imo) I’ve always hoped they’d go back to 6v6, they just need to mark tanks as “main” and “off” tank. No more double shields, no especially toxic tank combinations. You can balance the game around main and off tanks. Not when all tanks are just tanks in the eyes of team composition
Imo the main difference between the 2 is 6v6 fun and balance fluctuates way more depending on game state mostly out of your control (defense vs offense, your other tank's character choice, etc). Where as 5v5 is more in the middle. Not quite the same peaks as 6v6 but not the valleys either. And with negativity bias in mind i think i prefer 5v5. Will still give it a shot when the official test comes out though.
It's less that 5v5 is in the middle and more that its consistent. I'd argue though, if you were to average the fun & balance, 6v6 still comes out on top at the cost of consistency. Though I cannot confirm that its average is better (especially since 5v5 & 6v6 hasn't ever coexisted), the next question becomes is that average worth considering. If that average 6v6 game is funner than the average 5v5 game (though it's more rare), is that worth putting us into 6v6 at the cost of consistency? I think so, but I'm 100% sure not everyone would agree.
@@shnitzel9052 I feel like most people are left with more lasting frustration from bad games than they are happiness from good games. Plus, enough bad games and usually you just log off.
@@Falllll Weird that I could play OW1 for 5 hours at a several times a week for 6 years up until servers closed. Only didn't play when I was busy with other stuff and other games. But In OW2 I can play only 1 hour, once a twice a week. MAYBE 2 hours before it gets stale and boring. Unless I'm half cut on booze on a Friday night I can play for 5 hours with my senses dulled. I play all roles, but the solo tank gameplay. Playing as and playing against is just so stale to me. There is only one, maybe two correct plays a tank can make. In OW1 I could find a flanking Reinhardt in every game (me when I played him heh). They swap from frontlining to off angling to flanking. Now you are so much more limited in your gameplay. And so is the enemy. And that's boring imo. The freedom that DPS and Supports get I feel is an illusion. But that's just my opinion. I also sorely miss the teamplay and strategy of a comming 6 man team in competitive. Every comp game at least had 1-2 others talking. And every few had 3 or more. Now every game there's no one talking. Every few games there's 1 guy in chat.
@@Deusaga I'm mostly speaking generally with that. A couple of bad games on OW2 is also enough to make me not feel like playing more. I think solo tank queue is more or less hell if you're not just in the perfect headspace to not care too much about outcome. That's probably true for most people in both games though, and I dunno that I'd be having a better time in 6v6 when things get ugly. In general, Overwatch is more fun to me when you're playing with a few friends anyway and flexing across multiple roles, same as most other games. I will say I kind of like the role support players play in OW2. Proactivity feels encouraged and the expanded utility is nice. Heroes like Kiriko aren't necessarily good for the game, but she's a lot more fun to play than a number of other support heroes imo.
My man spitting the true with factual evidence to back it up. As it should be. Just keep it going bro, I remember I played in one of these custom games against you, was amazing. I uninstalled after that because I knew this game will never feel like that again officially. I hope this actually helped these devs and they take the right direction. Cheers bro, keep it up!!!
Having an extra tank would actually help you deal with flankers, so those heroes you mentioned will be less of a problem in 6 v 6. That was initially the role of off-tank back in OW1. It was called peeling, they would peel to help their support when they are being pressured by flankers. The main tank can't peel, they have to make space or they are just wasting time on the clock so this is why doom, ball, sombra and genji are so oppressive because they literally only have to worry about 2 supports and maybe 1 dps assuming you got a cassidy chilling behind a shield or something. With 2 tanks, it is much more risky to go for those plays so it will be less frustrating to deal with. DVA, Hog & Zarya were excellent at peeling for their supports, just dm them, bubble them, or hook the flanker and deal with them when they go for your support and if it went back to 6 v 6 they would go back to doing this kind of stuff again.
This does not show how queue times will get blown up, and I will also assume that the people who signed up for this would have a lower occurence of ''screw you I play roadhog on my own players'' than the average player would.
Yeah IMO the biggest issue is selection bias - anyone playing a 6v6 custom game is far more willing to play tank than the average player, but the queue times issue comes entirely from those average players. That's not to say it's a bad idea to see how 6v6 plays, just that this has no way of accounting for one of the biggest factors. And honestly I don't have enough of an issue with 5v5 to want to deal with extra queue times.
You bring up a great point about Roadhog losing his long range secondary fire. It made him much more one dimensional as a character and removed an important piece of skill expression. You simply don't have that second range sweet spot anymore.
5:31 we wouldn’t have double shield constantly we would have double shield on a cycle of nerfed then micro buffed back up, I love 6v6 but I don’t think the balance team right now could handle it especially when they can’t not micro buff the horse.
Thanks for the interesting video! DPS not having space to take certain angles is something I never thought about but makes so much sense now that you say it. I'm interested to see how they will practically do the 6v6 testing. Personally my biggest take away from this is: in the end it all comes down to personal preference and different formats bring different problems that are unique to 5v5 or 6v6 respectively.
During my time play Overwatch 1 from day one (that includes the extra day for pre-order it) I had more fun in 6V6 because there more options to play back then. You do more fun way to play
This is what blizzard does not understand: 6v6 is more Overwatch than 5v5. People play overwatch because its not a boring deathmatch game like COD. 5v5 is just a watered down version of Overwatch. 6v6 got game of the year.
Counterpoint - OW2 has more active players than OW1 ever had. OW2, with more individual agency, is simply more fun for a large chunk of players out there. Personal agency matters in games (duh)
@@adamdawidowicz7130counterpoint- overwatch is a free to play live service game so that’s not a flex. There isn’t any agency in the game now. Just because you remove a character and super buffed the role doesn’t mean you gave agency to players. In fact you removed agency because you can’t even make a play on one of the characters on the map. Overwatch is suppose to be a team based game. Think a lot of people forget that.
@@adamdawidowicz7130 Bruh MOBILE PHONE game have more players because they use the F2P model. THAT is nothing to brag about. You're losing the Esport scene because OW2 is failing so hard.
Tank main here, haven’t returned to OW2 since the marvel rivals beta. 5v5 advocates are going to get a real wake up call when 6v6 steals all the tank players, whether it’s ow2 6v6 or marvel rivals…we’re not coming back to the solo tank clown fiesta.
@@nycempirestate4689 hey fair enough, 3rd person was a little jarring for me at first but I got used to it quickly. I can’t speak too much to MR supports (other than Rocket, who I had a lot of fun with)
@@joshrobinett249 I was actually talking about playing supports in 6v6 Overwatch. In the video Spilo mentioned that supports regressed into a more heal botty role. Which I personally hate.
1:45 despite having more frequent patches we also have to notice that certain patches did nothing at all in terms of shaking meta or playstyles. Sojourn and kiriko were meta at launch and stayed meta for far longer than any other characters in overwatch 2
He literally put and edit at the start showing that it took them 2 years to fix brig back in OW1, it def didnt take that long for ow2 characters to be nerfed
More so cuz the balance team were being incompetent than the gamemide itself lacking. I hated playing ow 2 because kiriko and sojourn were more annoying to go up against every game than ow 1. Yes double shield was boring asf, but if I didn't want to play that, I'd go on quickplay. Where a lot of non meta tank combos were played. Idk y but ow 2 quickplay is just so much sweatier than ow 1. Its so bad that it literally feels like comp but with less toxic chat and less ppl on mic. It sucks.
15:29 well if you are gonna play hog in 6v6 you gotta give him his oneshot back and as a tradeoff make him killable again, that was the whole point of hog in ow1
I'm curious how Mei would transition back into 6v6 since the devs have shifted her identity so much, and her OW2 rework from 6v6 to 5v5 involved 6 different nerfs.
How did they "shift her identity"? She has the same kit as she's always had but has a better LMB that doesn't rely on a frustrating stun mechanic to get value. Otherwise, her whole kit is the same, she still excels in the same match ups, on the same maps and with the same tanks and supports. She's literally the first hero I played way back in July 2016, and right now she's the best and healthiest she's ever been.
@@va818 She was better when she could freeze people. You could literally continously freeze someone and not kill them for a bit to stagger them and then kill them right before their team comes back. Can't do that anymore, because they can continously fire back at you and the primary fire is more damage if I remember correctly. Mei used to be the ultimate pick to troll the enemy team or your own team, now you can only troll your own team.
I don’t think they have a consistent vision, but I do like that they make changes quicker. Just don’t think there is consistent reasoning. They seem to want to make all heroes viable AND make the game fun and both just can’t be true.
I do not like the fact that I, as a support, will have to healbot my team while I wait for my tanks to clear space. I love the individual playmaking I have right now. I can take an angle and put out dmg to force cool downs or enemies to back of. There's skill involved in that. Sitting back and healbotting takes less effort and will be so autopilot. Obviously I am happy for tanks. Also, this opinion my chance when season 13 comes out and I get to play 6v6
Support do so much damage, an entire class (dps) should be removed, just make it support and tank and delete the dps class entirely. Cosmetic class that exists just to fill and make matches possible. How do you support players always have such delusional takes?? Utility is a good tradeoff for not having crazy damage but you need both and self sustain and you need to have decent heals? This is why game is shit
I think that alongside the hero design changes that will be required to make 6v6 function better, it might be a good idea to implement some changes to map design to allow for more dynamicity in the way tanks take space and how that affects the other players. Some changes they could make to make the game more fun for example is like on second point Eichenwalde, you could have a smaller bridge going underneath the main bridge that doesn't require innate hero mobility to traverse; this allows someone like Cass to flank while still being able to receive support. Or maybe on second point Junkertown you could have a hallway going through the main building that leads to the defenders backline. I think changes like this could solve some issues with Tanks perma locking down space, and would allow non-mobile heroes to still have flanking options and playmaking ability.
You know I dont care about the video because its just very obvious why 6v6 is better. The game was literally built on 6v6, the tanks are either a dive tank or a shield tank. By removing one tank the healers are either left to die by a dive tank or the entire team takes forever to progress because their shield has to focus on making sure their teammates dont die and can barely get any damage in anyways bc they also need to shield their massive hitboxes. Again tanks have massive hitboxes but also need to be absorbing alot of damage, so by removing one tank it just puts way to much pressure on the tank to stop everyone and themselves from dying.
One thing that I find absolutely laughable is that the OW2 team have already unintentionally made a lot of changes we would’ve LOVED all the way back in OW1. We have less non-tank hard CC now. Shields are less spammable (with Orisa losing hers altogether). Brig is in a healthier spot. immortality abilities are a bit too prevalent but they’ve at least got longer cooldowns. What this code shows is that even with the restrictive limits of the workshop, you can make adjustments that makes for a better paced, more interesting, more nuanced game with more teamplay potential. It’s not perfect, but the adjustments the team working on the code have made are pretty much all steps in the right direction. The devs could learn a lot from this.
I think that currently the most annoying things in overwatch for me are counterwatch and how most matches feel like they are decided by who has the better tank. 6v6 will help to alleviate both of those issues.
Tanks decided the match in 6v6 too. It was very often that results were decided at the start of match in spawn. If your opponent had a main tank but you were lumbered with 2 off tanks you generally lost.
@@Summonick2 the second tank can't be used as a flex counter, because then it has no synergy with THEIR main tank. Even in situations where these two objectives actually align with each other, there's a second tank on the side where one tank is countered to take a lot of the heat off of them and support them. Counterpicking tanks is just not an issue in 6v6 at all.
I'd argue the better tank in 5v5 actually gets counter picked by enemy tank and dps, and then they tend to lose because the enemy team is counter picking and the better tank's team often isn't because they aren't the ones receiving the pressure.
If 6v6's tradeoff for more enjoyable tank and individual skill expression is the space issue (IMO your point on support skill expression IS essentially space problem), does it not mean 6v6 exasperates map problems compared to 5v5? Overwatch map design has always been (arguably) iffy at best (clash is still a barely functioning mode and the maps are a big factor in that), but I feel like if the main issue is space, that can be solved with map design, say opening an extra flank route on all maps (obviously isn't feasible atm since resources are on the transition, but could this not solve many of the space problems?) Would an extra flank route also help against the Widowmaker problem? IMO the video supports the idea that, foundationally, 6v6 is stronger & more potentially fun, but if space is your biggest issue I'm not sure how this can't be solved with better maps. IIRC one of the biggest pro-talking points for Marvel Rivals' is its spacious map design. I'd like to see what maps were the most enjoyable in the 6v6 code since space & map design are equally as connected as space & player count. For example, I feel flashpoint's openness may actually play into 6v6 better than some other transitional modes/maps (thinking push & clash), though I haven't played it myself.
Also if map design is the solution to the space problem of 6v6, I think that is why source is the best engine. You can easily create a whole in-theme flank route in the span of a week without issues. Man I love source. Gosh, what a genius engine.
U make it seem that reworking maps is something easy. How long did it take to fix Colloseo? Paris and Horizon Lunar Colony were never really competitively playable. What about maps which always felt good in 6v6 like Kings Row and have now (!?) the space problem. Rework them too? I do not think u can compensate the general gameplay difference between 6v6 and 5v5 with ur idea. U just have to accept that either mode has its flaws and strenghts.
@@terramater4679 I never meant to make it sound easy, I even mentioned the resources aren’t there at the moment, but rather wanted to point out that it’s a mostly untouched point of balance for OW. There’s also two different questions at play here: one of theory/potential (which format provides the foundation best possible game) and one of practicality (which format is the more practical to balance to a point of being more fun than the other). Even in this video, where Spilo remains mostly neutral, I’d argue he concedes the first to 6v6 so the point of contention is practicality. My point about space through map balancing is actually reframing Spilo’s point for 5v5 from the theoretical question to the practical one. In a sense, Spilo argues the tradeoff for 6v6 over 5v5 is the contesting of space for non-tank roles is worse off for the game (if it is not worse off but simply different, IMO the point is lost). This point is as to why 5v5 could arguably have a better foundation/potentiality over 6v6. However, from taking map balance into consideration, could it not be possible that instead the maps were changed to account for the loss of space? If this point stands, Spilo's point now becomes it is IMPRACTICAL to change the maps, which is an argument for practicality as opposed to theory, ergo, 6v6 has more potential. I'd push further that map balance patches aren't actually THAT difficult (though not easy), its just not a priority for balance for the devs, and has very rarely been one. I'm not going to affirm the point is flawless. The case could be that there is no possible change to maps to fix the loss of space issue. Though, I am skeptical of this since a large part of the praise for Marvel Rivals is the space a map provides is more prevalent & accessible to characters than OW's maps. Also for the colloseo issue, we don’t (to my knowledge) know how much actual development time was spent on that change. There is a different between map release, outcry for a change, development of that change, and when the project is completed and pushed out. And for previously beloved maps, if we find that Kings Row, knowing what we know now that we have experienced 5v5 and the ease of access for space, would benefit from changes, those changes should be made, so long as player sentiment is there. tl:dr I didn't mean to make it sound easy, but I think there is potential in map changes for 6v6 to fix the issue of the loss of space somewhat invalidating (rather reframing) the tradeoff Spilo presents in the video. Whether it's practical is a different question IMO.
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GCP1Z is the post s9 code used for 90% of the testing
Counterpicking space as opposed to counterpicking a hero probably feels better for the player base in 99.9% of cases. “I swapped to Winston and they automatically went reaper bastion hog” is a lot easier for people to have personal issues with as a player
It doesn't. Tank Synergies make a lot of heroes just completely useless.for the vast majority of players. It forces meta picks.
@@ReaveIdonowould you prefer the meta to be a dark souls DLC type boss that turns you into a masochist , or 2 hack n slash bosses every season where you atleast have fun fighting them ?
@@JI_Qm me when I intentionally exaggerate to make my own opinion more valid
I think this is a great take on the psychology of the player base
@@LunaireTD its not lol, 5v5 tanks are raid bosses that you cannot 1v1
6v6 gives characters like zarya, dva, hog and ball an identity, without having to be super broken to function.
Exactly! As someone who played primarily played Zarya and Hog in Overwatch 1, I couldn't agree more. 5v5 absolutely ruined the dynamic of off-tanks.
Hog? Only open que does that
While I do agree with this take. I have a feeling this could be some honeymoon phase stuff going on with 6v6. Once adding in the whole player base instead of these small testings, then probably other issues that folks didn't think of in 6v6 could arise. Just a food for thought.
@@jaysellers0116v6 won’t be perfect, it’ll have issues. But nothing can be worse than 5v5, this format blows bro. 6v6 in its worst states were better imo
@@jaysellers011 The issues of 6v6 are already widely known, but the 6v6 defenders just want to forget the obligation of having to play NOT what you want, but what the team needs. It's like having "team-picking " instead of counter-picking (the catch is that counter-picking still existed in 6v6)
Ball has to be literally invincible in 5v5 to be able to do anything, which just sucks. I liked characters being killable but still being able to kill people.
Yeah it’s painful the whole role sucks
I was a Ball main in Overwatch. Overwatch "2" - aka 0.2 - ruined the game.
I was a ball main in overwatch one and quit once the sequel came out, what’s it like to play Hammond in 2024?
@@Veilure depends, when it first came out good but how he's the only tank that even though he doesn't die it's hard for him to kill people unlike in ow1
I just couldn't adapt tbh, ball was my main in OW1 too and I really struggled when it all changed. Ball was never intended to be in a 5v5 format and it is ridiculous this people didn't take notice of such an evident feature of a character's identity and just fuck around with it. It just got boring, I ended up playing OpenQ only to feel old ball vibes and finally just uninstall and switched to Deadlock. Ball is no more for me because of this, 6v6 is the only thing that can actually save this game. Ill be coming back, if ball comes back.
Either way, I’m confident that Blizzard won’t be able to do it properly 👍
Ah, so when it comes out and most people don't like it you can just blame Blizzard instead of admitting you were wrong. Smart thinking!
@@BrofUJu wrong about what? Lol
@@BrofUJu Admitting what? 5v5 being better than 6v6? Hell naw im confident even a bad version of 6v6 is more enjoyable than current 5v5, i would rather play Dead OW1 than current OW2
@@heiko2255 average braindead take
@@Cushingura is this a joke? Balance is pretty solid right now, and it's miles ahead of 6v6.
I find it weird how people keep saying "6v6 is team, 5v5 is individual", I have never felt more forced to stay with my team than in overwatch 2.
Tanks have such ludicrous amounts of health and there's so many sustain and get-out-of-jail-free abilities that it's almost impossible to kill anything unless you're coordinating at all times.
Essentially what I'm hearing is... All the tanks that the community hates when they are meta or "good" are not good in 6v6... Mauga being niche... Hog being borderline niche or even throw.... Orisa being just bad.... Sounds like a win-win to me.
Not to mention I will never complain about poke being hard... Such a boring playstyle
Sounds like a win until they hold your games hostage.
Thankfully blizzard has never buffed Orisa or Roadhog in order to get their winrate up am I right!
A zar makes rein and or orisa unstoppable
i mean thats more off a balance thing if anything. it would just take blizzard to buff these heroes for them to be problematic too in there
There are still characters that WILL THROW YOUR GAME trust me lol
Seen all through ow1
So, Roadhog, Mauga, and Orisa get sent to the farm? As much as I hate to say it, Ram is a necessary sacrifice.
ram has potential in his kit to function IMO, just need tweaks to his CDs/nemesis
@@CoachSpilo agreed I've played a lot of ram in the code and there is some solid potential for him to be different and unique from rein for example in the melee brawler space
Ram player here 😢✋
ram is ultra fun but i agree with the cooldowns
There doesn't need to be any sacrifice if blizzard do this right, but yeah I'd take awful balance any day just to see anything close to old overwatch 1 now
This probably going to be a weird take but the Space "Problem" you brought up is actually one of the reasons I really miss overwatch 1. I miss grinding for space as a team to push out tanks and overcome choke points. And to me it always felt great to finally break a choke and be rewarded with new sightlines and space.
All of this!
thisssssssss💯
Which is one of the reasons 2CP was fun to me.
The game should be objective based not kill based!! That's where the magic is!
I can't believe so many people agree with this. You seriously liked standing at the same choke for multiple minutes just trying to break through? Overwatch 2 gives so many more options to push the objective. I can't imagine missing grinding out chokepoints
6v6 was such a beautiful experience when you weren't fighting in a choke. Character design definitely had a lot to do with the failures Ow1 had, but i really think map design is the #1 deciding factor of whether or not its going to feel better in the long run to switch to 6v6. I am willing to bet gamemodes like Push and Flashpoint would actually be quite good in 6v6, gonna have to try it out later
I doubt it. OW1 required you to play clumped up. I doubt the openness of those modes will be able to be explored when the 2nd tank just jumps you and kills you.
@ReaveIdono yeah i mean it depends on how coordinated both the teams are, i dont think it would be very wise to take angles alone, which is why its pretty convenient that your second tank can also just come over and stop their second tank from killing you.
@closeenoughxp2662 If your 2nd tank Abandons their Main tank to try and save you from their 2nd tank you other teammates will be overrun in the 4v5. This is why clumped up was the optimal play of OW1 or just let that teammate that isnthrowing just die on the angle.
@@ReaveIdono Do dps in OW2 that aren't named Widowmaker/Hanzo have big flank impact with all the increased health?
I've felt flanking far less impactful unless you duo flank since s9. I don't actively play the game rn so idk.
Seems to me like the direction they took 5v5 encourages grouping up all the same.
@ReaveIdono im kinda confused at your reasoning because if 1 squishy alone leaves to flank and meets a tank on the off angle, and your 2nd tank comes to meet them then that fight is a 2v1 which is much more likely to end faster than a 4v5, so if you're peeling at the right times you can effectively rejoin that 4v5 and make it a 6v5, or at the very least if one teammate dies in the clump you'll come back at an even 5v5. Most of the time you didnt wanna play in a "deathball" (thats the og slang for what youre talking about) because you allow the enemy to surround you.
11:28 "Do you prefer: Team coordination vs. Individual Agency?" is, in my opinion, a VERY important point and probably the main issue players have with "the opposite" format.
In a perfect world, we would have "Teamwatch" and "Individualwatch"-not one game trying to force very different styles on everyone.
To me personally, I prefer the team-based style way more because there are very few shooters doing that now. Adding the solid base of the game (gameplay, stability, feel, etc.) and how different the game can be with each role, the alternatives are zero (for now). If I want to make individual plays, I'll fire up one of the 15 other titles in my game library that allow me to do the ACE of the day.
couldnt have said it better myself.
im also not the best mechanically (some days i can pop off but thats besides the point) so i prefer the slower team work style gameplay of OW1
Team based hero shooter was the premise of Overwatch. OW2 neutered both key aspects and moved the game closer to a generic multiplayer first person shooter. Strong abilities, narrowly defined kits instead of designing each hero to be a generalist, emphasis on effective use of cooldowns and team coordination, basically make Overwatch Overwatch again.
Yknow what? Imma say it 5v5 does NOT offer more individual agency especially for dps because stats and healing are so high. Rarely anyone is vulnerable and mistakes that the tank or supports make matter WAY less than in 6v6
@@TheFarslayer facts, not only that but as the tank you just mostly have to match the other tank or they run over your team lol so not much agency there (obviously you don't have to completely that's like the good tanks right now with Orisa, Hog and Mauga)
@@TheFarslayerthe supports are the most vulnerable. Other DPS can be that depends but also the supports are your main target anyway.
Like sure tank bad.
But if the supports are good shit he living.
Blizzard solved 6v6 with ow2 , they removed orisas shield , they 'almost' balanced brig , they added WAY MORE FUN Tanks to that role (Ram, Jq, doom) , they added more flex , main AND MORE IMPORTANTLY FUN supports , they almost removed every 1 shot combo (but slowly are bringing it back ?!?!?) , but they did all of this in a 5v5 format 🤦🏻♂️
Imo brig is on the safe side of strong rn in 5v5 she’s very strong but unless you waste ult any mistake is likely to get you instakilled.
yep, if they kept the format from ow1, but some of the balance changes from ow2 i think the game could be amazing rn
Almost balanced brig? Brig is perfect rn
@@wisp9856 bro your statement would be correct 2 to 3 seasons ago , but the amount of small and miniscule buffs are adding up in a way that only the pros and OTPS realize .(forgive me for bad english)
@@JI_Qm at most she needs an ult or armor pack nerf, the play making of double bash is great compared to her defender role
I also think it’s a good thing that you have to counter pick the space more than the tank because that is more of a higher elo thing anyway, after all it’s a lot easier to understand what heroes counter what tank than it is to understand what heroes are better in certain parts of certain maps
IMO this is an underrated point. The hero-based counterpicking hurts lower mmr players more, which are the casuals. Pros have always picked based on space (watch any circuit royale gameplay, its almost always Sigma no matter who the strongest tank is at the moment) and since space is already underutilized by lower mmr, it allows them to play whatever especially since they were already casual to begin with.
The quote "More team coordinated taking space (6v6) or do you prefer the individual impact (5v5)"
The whole talk about the tanks being space-makers is literally what made the game good. You couldn't just waltz in as a dps, because you'd get punished. You had to rely on your team to make plays so you could make plays. If the playstyle you prefer is "i shoot thats why I win" then you need to play CoD or Battlefield. This isn't those games.
I'll take 6v6 any day of the week. I played that daily for over 6 years but couldn't last 6 months in OW2.
"If the playstyle you prefer is 'I shoot that's why I win' then stop playing Mercy"* 😂
Blizzard’s solution to metas that they don’t know how to balance is to remove options. First, they didn’t know how to balance GOATS, so they removed the option to play it (by adding Role Queue). Then, they didn’t know how to balance double shield, so they removed the option to play it (by removing 1 tank from each team). Regardless of if these changes were healthy for the game, it’s a ridiculous game balance philosophy.
Exactly, the solution was never to simplify the game further, but to increase complexity, add gameplay depth and give players more agency
No they nerfed shield and introduced heropool to fix Doubleshield...
They tried to balance dive first, which is how we got goats. We had a dive meta for two years and they tried to solve it with brig. Their solution previously was always to just jam something into a hero that did everything.
We had one of the greatest 6v6 metas ever right before they dropped OW2 (ball zen dive), too :(
@@jamieharrison417 I still don't understand how they thought making one character that can counter an entire team comp was a good idea. If they wanted to tone down dive it would of just taken a few nerfs.
1. Winston. Revert the buff that his CD begins when bubble is dropped or increase the CD.
2. DVa put DM back to a CD. its too strong of an ability to be on a resource when she wants it.
3. Nerf tracer because this was around the time they refused to tone tracer down under any circumstance. They made brig before they nerfed tracer which was wild. I would of made pulse bomb 200 damage back then with maybe an increase in recall CD or lowering her damage.
@@hambster9759wut? No they didn’t 😂 sigma rein orisa were consistently played at the end of ow1
Love the 6v6 code
Being able to actually duel tanks as a dps and being able to work with others as tanks is so fun
What's the 6v6 code
@@ERK_hanna pinned comment
DPS can only "duel tanks" because you are playing against bad players.
@@ReaveIdonoand bad players should be punished and die when they're playing bad??? 5v5 Giga-Tanks are such stat demons that they survive not because of skill but simply because they passively have more HP and DR compared to you.
@@ReaveIdono cap, with the lower health pools you can play tank busters like reaper and really put a lot of pressure of them assuming you're on the right map
Blizzard will mess up 6v6 on purpose and take it away when we complain saying "see, we told you that you wouldn't like it", just like the PvE.
I really hope you’re wrong
Unless half of the DPS players decide to become permanent tank one tricks after 6v6, it will fail. So tell your local Tracer player to start learning Reinhardt buddy.
genuine delusions
@@Tabako-san I meant the balance being bad but yeah that'll be an issue. I was a tank main from ow1 until recently, now I main dps but play characters like Mei and venture like how I would an off tank so maybe there are others like me who can help with that
@@ToddyBaconJr
The number of tank main that quit tank after OW2 is likely very small, considering OW1 didn't have many tank mains in the first place.
As a Dva main, this is why I love playing open queue. Once you get out of metal ranks, everyone plays 3-0-2 or, more rarely, 2-1-2. She feels SO incredible with another tank.
I was a tank main in OW1, I ONLY play tank in Open Queue for this reason alone. OW2 tank feels absolutely horrible.
I legitimately go and one-trick off-tank in open Q sometimes, it's so fun. Too bad I'm a QP warrior and I can almost guarantee I'll never get a decent main tank, though. Tank queues are going to be ridiculously long in the 6v6 experiment, I fear.
@@mage3690 if your tank role queue rank is gold or above, I strongly recommend giving ranked open queue a try instead of QP then. Most people seem to agree that your open queue rank tends to be one full rank above your roll queue rank. In open queue plat and above, like I mentioned, it's all 3-0-2 or 2-1-2 with generally pretty synergized tank lineups and team comps. Once I got to diamond, I only see someone playing DPS in 1 out of 10 games, maybe even less. It's glorious.
So fucking true
@@GummyDinosaursify OW1 player here, I no longer queue for tank for this reason either. Id be so happy to have 6v6 make a comeback
So the caveat throughout this that gets mentioned at the beginning, is the lack of adequate adjustments that the workshop can make; animations/visuals are a huge contributor to balanced hero design and there's a lot of evidence in OW2 that these have largely been reduced both as a priority and structural possibility. More complex systems/mechanics are also a huge limitation. Taking any mode with a grain of salt is a given, but it should be noted that with the addition of a more full engine and it's allowances, there will be a lot more options mechanically as well as balance-wise, that smooths a lot of what Spilo mentions in the video, which the Devs would have access too.
That said, a few of the heroes listed as problems (mainly within Tank, though there's a bunch in DPS and Support as well) could be re-tooled toward the OW1 design structure. Major problem there is the lack of Dev experience with OW1, given the majority seem to be mostly OW2 devs.
I wouldn't really...expect the first playtest of 6v6 that comes out to be the end all one to judge the format on. If they set it up as a series of Betas that directly target various obstacles in isolation, it'll probably go a lot smoother and set the playerbase's expectations to a more reasonable baseline.
This is a really eye opening video, I hope a lot of people and the devs especially, get the right info out of it. I especially liked the mention of 6v6 flash point here 9:20 , interesting stuff . The worst thing that could happen would be for the devs to bring in 6v6, barely make any adjustments and let it flop and say "Hey we tried". On the other hand, regardless of the format, the "bad apple" tanks as mentioned in the video, need to be looked at and I'm glad this actually a problem even in 6v6 because it highlights how terrible hero design brings the game down by a lot.
One thing that has to be emphasized is that this is a very controlled environment, with people playing that are a part of the same community and they know they're being watched and analyzed by a freak OW coach. It will be interesting how new players will adjust to being held hostage by their tankline. I just hope that either the devs take the strengths of 5v5 and implement into 6v6 or take the strengths of 6v6 and put them into 5v5. Tanks in 5v5 don't have to have giga health pools that absorb all damage. 6v6 doesn't have to always be a deathball of bodies bumbling through chokes and only getting picks through random spam or ult dumping. If the devs learn the right lessons, either game format can be the best version of the game (my opinion).
The strength of 6v6 is the tank synergy allowing for a main and off tank role to work around a team dynamic. That can’t exist in 5v5 because two tanks can’t exist in 5v5.
If two tanks or a two tank meta (in 5v5) becomes a thing again there has to be tools in game to help deal with the two tanks abilities. An item shop like the one in paladins would help a ton imo, in paladins if the enemy tanks are running a shield heavy composition for example you can buy an item called wrecker that allows you to deal more damage to shields with your primary weapon. The item shop makes dealing with two tanks far more tolerable.
freak coach? i'll analyze your freak comment you little piece of poop
@@lukeaustin4465 I hear you, but I’m not interested in paladins, I’m interested in OW and that is a fundamentally different game design than OW. I’d rather just pick the right tools (comp/characters) for the job.
@@Shortstop803 the devs already copied the reduced healing passive from Paladins and they increased hp pools, what's stopping them from going the full mile?
I tested it and as expected, it was definitively more fun. It felt like a team game again with 5 different teammates, playstyles more diversity in terms of gameplay options, more explosive pop-off moments. 5v5 seems stale, haa boring matchups, etc.
"More explosive pop-off moments" meaning waiting half the match for ult combos, but non stop activity in 5v5 seems stale to you, how does that even make sense.
@@Hooklamat0r 6v6 has a natural ebb and flow that isnt necessarily present in the 5v5 format, the only moments of downtime in 5v5 tend to be during the frustration of waiting for respawn. For the average player having time with control of your character in which you can assess a situation without frustration that is a much more desirable experience. In addition trying tank in and of itself in 5v5 is much more punishing than it ever was in 6v6, if you fail in a moment more often than not the entire team fails with you in 5v5. That responsibility for a new player or for someone new to the role in toxicwatch of today just isnt a healthy introduction to the role and can turn someone off of it permanently. 5v5 feels like it's got too much going on in a bad way with too short of a time to adjust. 6v6 opens up time to approach a role healthily.
@@Hooklamat0rall 10 ults popping instead of strategic use of ults becomes insanely stale. I try to talk with my team to limit ult usage. Then its ult dominoes...
That's because you are in plat/dia @@akionlizard
@@Hooklamat0r lol the team that gets the first pick in 5v5 wins way more and its a lot harder to come back, in 6v6 u can always come back from it with and without ults
Thanks so much for doing this! It's a breath of fresh air to see someone coming at this debate from an objective point of view--as much as I miss OW1 and admittedly love watching folks dog on OW2 as a guilty pleasure, I recognize that every debate has two sides and I'd be doing the game I loved a disservice not to hear out folks with informed points of view on the other side of the aisle from me.
I just want my zarya back. I loved bubble strategy in the rein v rein trade, and holding off the short off-angles
Chro has a very good point about why tanks will always be scary, and it’s the fact that overwatch is a point-based gamemode. the fact that there is a point means you have to have a player alive on the point, and tanks are the best at both getting there and staying there. The peak of goats meta was 3 tanks simply moving to the point and refusing to die, and killing anyone who touched point. Like a goats v non-goats matchup consisted of the goats moving on to point and the non-goats rotating, poking, attempting to pick, draw resources, take angles and everything else you can do to players out in the open of the point, but the AOE heals and mitigation at the time simply allowed them to sit on point
Glad they are experimenting 6v6, I really enjoyed the concept of off tanks in ow1 and losing the complexity of tank combos took a lot of fun out of tanking for me to the point that I mostly play support now. Thinking about that coming back gets me excited about combos that didn't exist before like rein/queen, sigma/mauga and doom/monkey that I think would be a lot of fun to play with and against. But also I think some heroes would simply need a complete rework to continue existing in the game, like orisa and ramatra, but honestly I think even in current ow2 those characters don't fit in well.
imo its not just counterpicking space is healthier but a lot of why i preferred 6v6 is the various teamcomps you could play/craft/experiment with and the teamcomps having more of a character opposed to ow2 where teamcomps often feel all the same, they just swap the tank or 1 of the dps and thats it
The slower pace of OW1 was way better than the "peek and you get insta-killed" turbo-pace of OW2.
OW1 was may more tactical and strategic. OW2 is just "can you aim well?"
Spilo jumping into this conversation is like a breath of fresh air. I really don't care what happens to OW because I don't play anymore, but I hope it is good for you all that keep playing.
having the right hero for a comp/map to be able to advance is a much healthier form of rock paper scissors than the entire lobby revolving around 2 solo tanks... it also points back to the hero and map design problems much more than only the arbitrary format. the asymmetrical nature of the tank role is a lot healthier in a system where there is overall much more parity between the roles in general. spacing and balance issues can be massaged and shifted through the design or maps, objectives, and hero kits a lot more than you can fine tune or fix these problems with a hard format limitation. Even systems like role q are to be debated (not with blizz balancing lol) but IMO that change has a lot more reasons to exist and is much more defendable than rather harsh, convenient, and lazy format changes like 5v5 or healthpools and hotboxes being simplified and buffed.
I loved rolling tank. Loved having the team move around me. Made you feel like team captain
Everything I heard sounded in favor of 6v6. The characters actually doing the role they were designed for. Positioning and teamwork mattering in a team game. Higher highs. Higher highs are what make you want to play the game. No one wants to play something middiling.
OW1 didn't have slow patches, they were actually really fast. They just didn't fkn put them anywhere 70% of the time!
Mei had a freezing rate change in season 2, no-one knew about it.
Pharah got silent nerfed jetpack duration when she wasn't allowed to surf rooftops anymore.
When Genji's slingshot was removed, they made his hitbox larger.
Loads of stuff that has never appeared anywhere in patch notes, but drastically change viability. Usually when they change something else in the kit, but it's a bug so it didn't deserve to be in a patch note
nah the subway surfers LMAO
I was about to say that XD
Tik Tok minds need This to stay on the video lol
Appreciate spilo doing this as it can be an amazing basis for the devs to base 6v6 concerns on
1:30 You know what I just realised, if Hanzo dragon strike could destroy deployables such as turrets and immorts, this sustain comp would be terrible = no double shield. Why tf did bliz not do that, instead of buffing reaper and moira as the answer.
An ult was NOT putting double shields off the meta
Hanzos ult destroys deployables
Hitting us with the 3rd strike soundtrack towards the end *chef's kiss*
The “team coordination vs. individual agency” seems like a bit of a misreading of trade offs, or downplaying 5v5’s pitfalls.
5v5 feels like there is more individual RESPONSIBILITY, but not agency. I feel this is largely caused by tank balance which has created a nebulous ‘not safe zone’ due to their mobility and QoL buffs that disincentivises average players from threatening flanks. A tank could turn up and blow them up with 0 counter play options. The uncertain threat (empowered punch, orisa spear, ram slow + form, rein charge cancels, dva heat seeking missile, roadhog) results in a ‘hold all cooldowns and stalemate’ gameplay loop. The nail that sticks out gets smacked down unless it has suzu. I miss the clear cut matchups and requisite chaos to HAVE agency in the game. If the zarya has one self bubble, the options are clear to most players.
The “more team play” aspect also feels a bit of a wash to me as a 5v5 tank enjoyer. I am at the mercy of a poke solution or adequate use of the flanks for my plays to have any meaning. As a DPS, if I’m the only one with a read on the available space on my team, I die for it. Most if not all proactivity requires such a brute-force ‘between the lines’ reading of every situation, and we all end up playing the sediment that sinks to the bottom by sitting back, shooting, holding cooldowns and hoping someone on the enemy team sticks out like a nail.
I don’t wanna downplay the potential stifling of agency by an opposing tank combo, but at best this presents as a side-grade, where the end result is: relative agency by design is the same, but the format affords a net buff to it by having more players and more winnable duels across the board.
As a DPS player I have way more agency to make plays in 5v5 just by sheer virtue of there not being a tank defending every angle I try to attack. Sure if you do encounter the tank they're gonna be scarier to fight than in 6v6, but it's easy to avoid the tank by just taking off angles. In 6v6 you're almost always forced to go through one of the tanks, which feels shitty.
I feel like a lot of peoples experience with 6v6 has been tainted because of the last few years of OW 1 just being a stale meta with very little balance changes.
2 tanks wasn't the problem, the problem was the supports that enabled the bring tank play style. Orisa and sig on their own are not good at dealing with off angles, or dive, as they are both poke tanks with shields.
They were only enabled by the two deceptively tanks and high sustain supports like brig and bap, making those tanks very hard to kill, and making the backline very hard to dive.
If not for the unhealthy direction they took support in OW 1, tanks at different points of the game (each tank had their moments of unbalanced toxicity to go up against), are a lot less annoying to kill than you would think. Alot of those tanks can be blown up by one dps if caught out and had decently long cool down times on their abilities, making them have more downtime and more duel able.
Ex. Back then Dva was good at contesting space, especially high ground but assuming you were playing mccree or another dps, you can easily pressure her off of you by landing 3 headshots mech, which wasn't hard to do, as tank passive wasn't a thing.
Now if a dva dives you (and you don't have a support or someone to bail you out), you need many more headshots to scare her off, but with the addition of rockets, she can literally dm up to you while rocketing and kill you with a melee afterwards. You cannot fight tanks directly in OW2, you have to avoid them or go for them only when they are really low, in OW 1 you can atleast duel them, albeit it wasn't easy.
seeing the footage from this playtesting is great. seeing tanks with much lower HP values feels like "home" to me as someone who has been playing OW since 2016 on day 1!!!!!!!!
I love 6v6. I prefer the trade-offs that come with 6v6. It's definitely my preferred format.
title sounds like "flat earther tried to prove the earth is flat by walking to the edge of the world, but he came around"
8 inches per mile squared and all that
Fantastic video - thanks for making this! Your passion for OW really shines through.
18:05 “very high highs and very low lows” is perhaps the best description of OW1 ever. Sometimes it was the best and most fun game ever made and other times it was the most frustrating and unfun games ever.
For me, as someone who’s been playing since day 1, I prefer that style over OW2’s middle of the road, ‘meh it’s alright’ style.
(I suspect this is common in the community with some feeling the way I do and the other half not. I think the most obvious and effective solution is to just have 2 quick play modes - one 5v5 with its balance and heroes etc and then 6v6 with its equivalent.)
"if you get the right tank combo and you communicate and you synchronize..."
Yeah, that's not gonna fly with most of the playerbase 😂
I think it's always going to be: 6v6 at its best is better, at its worst is worse. 5v5 is more consistent. It's an interesting philosophical question
Agreed. I’d take 5v5 any day though
5v5 is nowhere near as consistent as 6v6
I don’t think I’ve ever known an era as boring as Mauga meta. Despite lasting a fraction of moth, goats, and double shield meta. So I disagree
Consistent could also mean bland
But 5v5 isn’t more consistent it’s a constant balance shift between good characters and dog shit. 6v6 was pretty well balanced until Moth meta and than double shield which was the worst of the 6v6 metas. With 6v6 the balance solutions are pretty simple and almost all of the Meta shifts where because of support balance. With 5v5 there’s really no solution to the balance problem so all they can really do is just massive shifts to at least keep the imbalanced game interesting.
Going just off of how you describe it, the faster queue times and more individual expression of 5v5 sounds more appealing to me personally
6v6 being Mauga unfriendly might just be the biggest advertisement for 6v6
I will never go back to 6v6. The move to 5v5 was the only good move of OW2. OW1 majority of the time was just shooting at shields until ultimates came out and then death balling. I get the frustration that now tanks are super important for a team to win, but it still is way better than the sloggy gameplay of before
did you watch the video?
he addresses that within the first 3 minutes ow1 had the same meta for 2 years that was a balancing issue not a 6v6 issue
I just miss my tank duo, he won't play bc the game became so much less fun with one tank, wish i listened and joined him lmao
If I don't trust people in play gamemodes in 5v5 to even play Push correctly, I definitely don't trust my cotank in 6v6 to play correctly. Hell, I learned Winston back in 2017 strictly because I played Zarya and everyone wanted to play Hog in Dive meta.
The amount of terrible tank synergies, even after years of play, was aggravating. Bad tank synergy made tanking feel bad and good tank synergy made tanking feel good but SUFFOCATING for dps and supports (especially if your team had bad tank synergy)
Great points that many forget.
You are wrong, tanks were not boosted as they are now.
I could kill a winston with ONLY 2 HEADSHOTS + 1 body shot as Hanzo, and the fact I had 2 tanks taking care of the frontline forced him think twice before brainlessly jump at me.
I feel WAY WAY more suffocated playing against one 700Hp target with armour buffs, headshot reduction and only 1 ally tank (usually in the frontline) to protect me.
Hog just needs to be removed. Awful character all around. If he wasn’t an option to select then you would have another co tank and therefore a much better experience.
@@noctisofrivia8778 Hanzo 3 shotting a tank is broken as hell
@@commentbot9510
- Ashe took 3
- Mei took 3 and 1 sec spread
- Reaper took 2 and 1 body shot
- Widow took 2 and a spread
- Cree took 2 fan the hammer
- Hog took 2
You know nothing, as the majority nowadays talking about this topic.
Actually W video + editing; I can tell a lot of work was put into this one to try to get it to go big.
I’ve played 6v6 customs sporadically in the last few months, and the one thing that’s always stuck with me, as somebody who didn’t play overwatch 1, is that support just feels kind of boring in comparison to 5v5. Every support apart from zen, Lucio, Brig and to a lesser extent Illari have to spend way more of their time pocketing and less time making plays.
My overall experience was kind of the opposite of “5v5 is more deathmatchy.” The 6v6 games I played felt much closer to tf2 or another classic arena shooter in terms of the fights that were happening than 5v5 does. It felt less coordinated, not more; but maybe that had to do with who I played with. I also wasn’t playing in lobbies that ran your s9 health changes, so that might’ve had an influence.
well, the role of supports in overwatch 1 orginally was that, you role was to heal, but as time went on, they started to make supports stronger, and in overwatch 2, because they removed a tank, they needed to make supports stronger so they couldn't get dived so easily, and the role slowly started to shift into what is now, a dps that can heal
As a Tank player *your* ability to make SOME plays at SOME points shouldn't come at the expense of me being able to make zero plays at any point. ALL players should be allowed to have fun and 1 guy being the sacrificial lamb to the altar of misery for his role so 4 other people FEEL (because its not even true) like they've got "more angles and playmaking" is a dog shit bargain.
5v5 was made because it was *assumed* a semi permanent, replayable PVE would come with it and thus "split the playerbase" The PVE didn't happen, so 5v5 should just flat out fucking die with the PVE that never was.
No one asked for 5v5 or this cash grab sequel.
6v6 is only fun for tank players, especially the ones that stack which makes solo queue even more frustrating.
@@ld1449 you’re being extremely hyperbolic, here. Tank is not as bad as you’re making it out to be in 5v5. And tank is my most played role as well because I flex-queue.
Tanks being able to make “zero plays at any point” is massively overstating it. Sure, there are times when the optimal plan is to wait until you have an advantage to make a move; but that’s something every role has to do. It’s called timing, and it’s a skill.
And personally, the main tank playmaking aspect doesn’t really feel much different in 6v6. Running out trying to force a play is still going to get you killed.
@@wswann34tanking is worse in 6v6.
In 5v5 you’re in control, in 6v6 you’re in constant conflict with some other tank that doesn’t work well with you. Better coordinate with him or lose!
I gave on on OW a while ago, but I still enjoy your videos. I have always been interested in design, balance, and strategy of competitive gaming. A passion we share. This was an interesting conversation. Id like to see a 6v6 with a more defined "main tank" and "off tank" where off tanks are their own category instead of picking a 2nd tank. They would be something of a hybrid tank/sup/dps that doesn't excel in any one area but capable of doing a little bit of everything. I think it would address many of the issues you talk about in your videos. The main issue with double tanks is the lack of space and ability to take space. The main issue with solo tank is solo tank focus and raid boss. Having an actual 4th role that isnt as tanky and not as good at holding space alone, but still survivable enough to help take some pressure off the main tank would be a fun adjustment to try.
Basically what I took away from this is that hero design and hero balance is not what determines game balance and quality. Map design is more important and a more effective approach to balance the game. If defensive power positions are oppressive then instead of changing the heroes to make them less/more effective at taking/holding space they should change the map and game rules to adjust the value those positions provide.
commenting to get this video out in the community!! hopefully blizzard will take some notes
As someone who peaked GM in ow1 (the alive seasons) I just don't enjoy solo tanking. I can still do it well, but it's more stressful with the sole responsibility. On the flipside if you get a dud tank as a dps/sup, it can feel as though the game is over from the start
Tanks being the role that controls space is literally what sets Overwatch apart from other hero shooters. It's the one trait that no other hero shooter has nailed down properly.
Loved the video. You rarely see such a critical approach on 5v5 vs 6v6. Usually it's just "ougghhh counter picking, tank synergy ougghhh 5v5 so baaaad". I've never played 6v6 but regardless of it's challenges, I'm excited to try it once it releases
I was a top 500 tank player is OW1 seasons 3/4, Dva main. Loved being an off tank. Stopped playing around when ball came out. Just got into OW2, I definitely preferred playing tank in 1, prefer DPS and support in OW2 (individual impact does feel greater in these roles than tank imo)
I’ve always hoped they’d go back to 6v6, they just need to mark tanks as “main” and “off” tank. No more double shields, no especially toxic tank combinations. You can balance the game around main and off tanks. Not when all tanks are just tanks in the eyes of team composition
Imo the main difference between the 2 is 6v6 fun and balance fluctuates way more depending on game state mostly out of your control (defense vs offense, your other tank's character choice, etc). Where as 5v5 is more in the middle. Not quite the same peaks as 6v6 but not the valleys either. And with negativity bias in mind i think i prefer 5v5. Will still give it a shot when the official test comes out though.
It's less that 5v5 is in the middle and more that its consistent. I'd argue though, if you were to average the fun & balance, 6v6 still comes out on top at the cost of consistency. Though I cannot confirm that its average is better (especially since 5v5 & 6v6 hasn't ever coexisted), the next question becomes is that average worth considering. If that average 6v6 game is funner than the average 5v5 game (though it's more rare), is that worth putting us into 6v6 at the cost of consistency? I think so, but I'm 100% sure not everyone would agree.
@@shnitzel9052 I feel like most people are left with more lasting frustration from bad games than they are happiness from good games. Plus, enough bad games and usually you just log off.
@@Falllll Weird that I could play OW1 for 5 hours at a several times a week for 6 years up until servers closed. Only didn't play when I was busy with other stuff and other games. But In OW2 I can play only 1 hour, once a twice a week. MAYBE 2 hours before it gets stale and boring. Unless I'm half cut on booze on a Friday night I can play for 5 hours with my senses dulled.
I play all roles, but the solo tank gameplay. Playing as and playing against is just so stale to me. There is only one, maybe two correct plays a tank can make. In OW1 I could find a flanking Reinhardt in every game (me when I played him heh). They swap from frontlining to off angling to flanking.
Now you are so much more limited in your gameplay. And so is the enemy. And that's boring imo.
The freedom that DPS and Supports get I feel is an illusion. But that's just my opinion.
I also sorely miss the teamplay and strategy of a comming 6 man team in competitive. Every comp game at least had 1-2 others talking. And every few had 3 or more. Now every game there's no one talking. Every few games there's 1 guy in chat.
@@Deusaga I'm mostly speaking generally with that. A couple of bad games on OW2 is also enough to make me not feel like playing more. I think solo tank queue is more or less hell if you're not just in the perfect headspace to not care too much about outcome. That's probably true for most people in both games though, and I dunno that I'd be having a better time in 6v6 when things get ugly. In general, Overwatch is more fun to me when you're playing with a few friends anyway and flexing across multiple roles, same as most other games.
I will say I kind of like the role support players play in OW2. Proactivity feels encouraged and the expanded utility is nice. Heroes like Kiriko aren't necessarily good for the game, but she's a lot more fun to play than a number of other support heroes imo.
The elephant in the room is: if the devs capitulate and move to 6v6, it will just change what people complain about.
to me, going back to 6v6 is just blizzard accepting Overwatch "2" was just a greedy move
the '2' is just a bold-faced lie
I think the "2" goes with it being a Free to Play model and 5v5 was something to spice it up and make it "new".
@@AgentPajon 5v5 was to justify the sequel because they knew at that point that PvE was cancelled, they just hadn't announced it yet.
My man spitting the true with factual evidence to back it up. As it should be. Just keep it going bro, I remember I played in one of these custom games against you, was amazing. I uninstalled after that because I knew this game will never feel like that again officially. I hope this actually helped these devs and they take the right direction. Cheers bro, keep it up!!!
I hope they don’t bring back 6v6 I don’t want to deal with doom, ball, sombra and genji I already hate this game enough
Having an extra tank would actually help you deal with flankers, so those heroes you mentioned will be less of a problem in 6 v 6. That was initially the role of off-tank back in OW1. It was called peeling, they would peel to help their support when they are being pressured by flankers. The main tank can't peel, they have to make space or they are just wasting time on the clock so this is why doom, ball, sombra and genji are so oppressive because they literally only have to worry about 2 supports and maybe 1 dps assuming you got a cassidy chilling behind a shield or something. With 2 tanks, it is much more risky to go for those plays so it will be less frustrating to deal with. DVA, Hog & Zarya were excellent at peeling for their supports, just dm them, bubble them, or hook the flanker and deal with them when they go for your support and if it went back to 6 v 6 they would go back to doing this kind of stuff again.
The photoshoped picture at 0:24 is hilarious 😂
This does not show how queue times will get blown up, and I will also assume that the people who signed up for this would have a lower occurence of ''screw you I play roadhog on my own players'' than the average player would.
Yeah IMO the biggest issue is selection bias - anyone playing a 6v6 custom game is far more willing to play tank than the average player, but the queue times issue comes entirely from those average players. That's not to say it's a bad idea to see how 6v6 plays, just that this has no way of accounting for one of the biggest factors. And honestly I don't have enough of an issue with 5v5 to want to deal with extra queue times.
@@Rockgunner28 exactly
You bring up a great point about Roadhog losing his long range secondary fire. It made him much more one dimensional as a character and removed an important piece of skill expression. You simply don't have that second range sweet spot anymore.
Spilo: Mauga, Orisa, Hog, and Ram will be bad.
Me to Ram: I’m sorry, little one.
Either way people will cry
5:31 we wouldn’t have double shield constantly we would have double shield on a cycle of nerfed then micro buffed back up, I love 6v6 but I don’t think the balance team right now could handle it especially when they can’t not micro buff the horse.
Wow an actual well informed, objective video on this topic that doesn't consist of whining or nostalgia reminiscence. Thank you for your time
Interesting that in the end all of the tanks we dislike come from poor design. I hope we can make the best version of the game possible
Thanks for the interesting video! DPS not having space to take certain angles is something I never thought about but makes so much sense now that you say it. I'm interested to see how they will practically do the 6v6 testing. Personally my biggest take away from this is: in the end it all comes down to personal preference and different formats bring different problems that are unique to 5v5 or 6v6 respectively.
the meta has been push and pull the entirety of ow2, completely brainless. as a current gm and ow1 t500, this game is fucked.
You actually make me feel less insecure about my morning messy hair when I wake up. Nice.
def prefer 6v6 team coordination. way more enjoyable to me personally when we all fall into place and work together to win
During my time play Overwatch 1 from day one (that includes the extra day for pre-order it) I had more fun in 6V6 because there more options to play back then. You do more fun way to play
This is what blizzard does not understand:
6v6 is more Overwatch than 5v5.
People play overwatch because its not a boring deathmatch game like COD.
5v5 is just a watered down version of Overwatch.
6v6 got game of the year.
Counterpoint - OW2 has more active players than OW1 ever had. OW2, with more individual agency, is simply more fun for a large chunk of players out there.
Personal agency matters in games (duh)
@@adamdawidowicz7130 it's just free to play...
@@adamdawidowicz7130 OW2 has made 1/5 of the money that OW1 made so is OBJECTIVELY performing worse
@@adamdawidowicz7130counterpoint- overwatch is a free to play live service game so that’s not a flex. There isn’t any agency in the game now. Just because you remove a character and super buffed the role doesn’t mean you gave agency to players. In fact you removed agency because you can’t even make a play on one of the characters on the map. Overwatch is suppose to be a team based game. Think a lot of people forget that.
@@adamdawidowicz7130 Bruh MOBILE PHONE game have more players because they use the F2P model. THAT is nothing to brag about. You're losing the Esport scene because OW2 is failing so hard.
I think current pressure on the tank is mostly unhealty
Tank main here, haven’t returned to OW2 since the marvel rivals beta. 5v5 advocates are going to get a real wake up call when 6v6 steals all the tank players, whether it’s ow2 6v6 or marvel rivals…we’re not coming back to the solo tank clown fiesta.
Correct
We don't care I like 5v5 more than 6v6 and I'm tired of pretending otherwise
Marvel Rivals being 3rd person kills it for me. I also play support, and heal botting tanks does not sound fun in 6v6.
@@nycempirestate4689 hey fair enough, 3rd person was a little jarring for me at first but I got used to it quickly. I can’t speak too much to MR supports (other than Rocket, who I had a lot of fun with)
@@joshrobinett249 I was actually talking about playing supports in 6v6 Overwatch. In the video Spilo mentioned that supports regressed into a more heal botty role. Which I personally hate.
I appreciate the bowser's inside story music
1:45 despite having more frequent patches we also have to notice that certain patches did nothing at all in terms of shaking meta or playstyles. Sojourn and kiriko were meta at launch and stayed meta for far longer than any other characters in overwatch 2
He literally put and edit at the start showing that it took them 2 years to fix brig back in OW1, it def didnt take that long for ow2 characters to be nerfed
More so cuz the balance team were being incompetent than the gamemide itself lacking. I hated playing ow 2 because kiriko and sojourn were more annoying to go up against every game than ow 1. Yes double shield was boring asf, but if I didn't want to play that, I'd go on quickplay. Where a lot of non meta tank combos were played.
Idk y but ow 2 quickplay is just so much sweatier than ow 1. Its so bad that it literally feels like comp but with less toxic chat and less ppl on mic. It sucks.
Blizzard just needs to give us the option to play classic overwatch, just like World of Warcraft. What is so difficult about this?
15:29 well if you are gonna play hog in 6v6 you gotta give him his oneshot back and as a tradeoff make him killable again, that was the whole point of hog in ow1
"back"
@@MarinaInChains yeah he kinda still has it for some reason. But the inconsistency makes it feel even worse for the Hog and the one getting hooked
Watching you fail the wall climb from 11:15 to 12:00 was so funny LOL
I'm curious how Mei would transition back into 6v6 since the devs have shifted her identity so much, and her OW2 rework from 6v6 to 5v5 involved 6 different nerfs.
How did they "shift her identity"? She has the same kit as she's always had but has a better LMB that doesn't rely on a frustrating stun mechanic to get value. Otherwise, her whole kit is the same, she still excels in the same match ups, on the same maps and with the same tanks and supports. She's literally the first hero I played way back in July 2016, and right now she's the best and healthiest she's ever been.
@@va818 She was better when she could freeze people. You could literally continously freeze someone and not kill them for a bit to stagger them and then kill them right before their team comes back. Can't do that anymore, because they can continously fire back at you and the primary fire is more damage if I remember correctly. Mei used to be the ultimate pick to troll the enemy team or your own team, now you can only troll your own team.
After hearing Sophisticated Fight from Trails in the Sky play in the background, I have a new found respect for you Spilo. So based.
I truly do wonder what would have happened with this balancing team in ow1, both in terms of vision and speed.
better than what jeff and the previous team did regardless.
jeff blaming brigs existence on the PLAYERS of all things was insanely petty.
I don’t think they have a consistent vision, but I do like that they make changes quicker. Just don’t think there is consistent reasoning. They seem to want to make all heroes viable AND make the game fun and both just can’t be true.
your content helped me enjoy ow2 better for qp with my friends......thank you.
I do not like the fact that I, as a support, will have to healbot my team while I wait for my tanks to clear space. I love the individual playmaking I have right now. I can take an angle and put out dmg to force cool downs or enemies to back of. There's skill involved in that. Sitting back and healbotting takes less effort and will be so autopilot. Obviously I am happy for tanks.
Also, this opinion my chance when season 13 comes out and I get to play 6v6
It sounds like you want to play DPS in OW1...
@@akaneki7234 I don't want to healbot
@@BlazeD_7 in OW1, supports weren’t heal bots…
Support do so much damage, an entire class (dps) should be removed, just make it support and tank and delete the dps class entirely. Cosmetic class that exists just to fill and make matches possible. How do you support players always have such delusional takes?? Utility is a good tradeoff for not having crazy damage but you need both and self sustain and you need to have decent heals? This is why game is shit
@@akaneki7234 nowhere did I mention ow1
Thank you for adding the subway surfers game play I really needed that
I think that alongside the hero design changes that will be required to make 6v6 function better, it might be a good idea to implement some changes to map design to allow for more dynamicity in the way tanks take space and how that affects the other players. Some changes they could make to make the game more fun for example is like on second point Eichenwalde, you could have a smaller bridge going underneath the main bridge that doesn't require innate hero mobility to traverse; this allows someone like Cass to flank while still being able to receive support. Or maybe on second point Junkertown you could have a hallway going through the main building that leads to the defenders backline. I think changes like this could solve some issues with Tanks perma locking down space, and would allow non-mobile heroes to still have flanking options and playmaking ability.
both of your suggestions already exist 🤷🏻♀️
You know I dont care about the video because its just very obvious why 6v6 is better. The game was literally built on 6v6, the tanks are either a dive tank or a shield tank. By removing one tank the healers are either left to die by a dive tank or the entire team takes forever to progress because their shield has to focus on making sure their teammates dont die and can barely get any damage in anyways bc they also need to shield their massive hitboxes. Again tanks have massive hitboxes but also need to be absorbing alot of damage, so by removing one tank it just puts way to much pressure on the tank to stop everyone and themselves from dying.
Game was also built on no limits. Should it go back to that too?
Wait so in order for 6v6 to he fun we have to kill Orisa, Roadhog and Mauga? I see this as an absolute win!
It is more fun if you dont take it seriously. Hope it doesnt comeback as the main mode though. I like my queue times the way they are.
One thing that I find absolutely laughable is that the OW2 team have already unintentionally made a lot of changes we would’ve LOVED all the way back in OW1.
We have less non-tank hard CC now. Shields are less spammable (with Orisa losing hers altogether). Brig is in a healthier spot. immortality abilities are a bit too prevalent but they’ve at least got longer cooldowns.
What this code shows is that even with the restrictive limits of the workshop, you can make adjustments that makes for a better paced, more interesting, more nuanced game with more teamplay potential. It’s not perfect, but the adjustments the team working on the code have made are pretty much all steps in the right direction. The devs could learn a lot from this.
Orisa rework was terrible tho
9:26 new suzu buff (being able to suzu to a different map and change hero to bap) is crazy
I think that currently the most annoying things in overwatch for me are counterwatch and how most matches feel like they are decided by who has the better tank. 6v6 will help to alleviate both of those issues.
Not true! Counters very effective in 6v6, now an extra flex hero.
@@Summonick2 less effective than being able to effectivly shut down 2x the players for half the effort in 5v5
Tanks decided the match in 6v6 too. It was very often that results were decided at the start of match in spawn. If your opponent had a main tank but you were lumbered with 2 off tanks you generally lost.
@@Summonick2 the second tank can't be used as a flex counter, because then it has no synergy with THEIR main tank. Even in situations where these two objectives actually align with each other, there's a second tank on the side where one tank is countered to take a lot of the heat off of them and support them. Counterpicking tanks is just not an issue in 6v6 at all.
I'd argue the better tank in 5v5 actually gets counter picked by enemy tank and dps, and then they tend to lose because the enemy team is counter picking and the better tank's team often isn't because they aren't the ones receiving the pressure.
damn this was a hella good analysis
If 6v6's tradeoff for more enjoyable tank and individual skill expression is the space issue (IMO your point on support skill expression IS essentially space problem), does it not mean 6v6 exasperates map problems compared to 5v5? Overwatch map design has always been (arguably) iffy at best (clash is still a barely functioning mode and the maps are a big factor in that), but I feel like if the main issue is space, that can be solved with map design, say opening an extra flank route on all maps (obviously isn't feasible atm since resources are on the transition, but could this not solve many of the space problems?) Would an extra flank route also help against the Widowmaker problem?
IMO the video supports the idea that, foundationally, 6v6 is stronger & more potentially fun, but if space is your biggest issue I'm not sure how this can't be solved with better maps. IIRC one of the biggest pro-talking points for Marvel Rivals' is its spacious map design. I'd like to see what maps were the most enjoyable in the 6v6 code since space & map design are equally as connected as space & player count.
For example, I feel flashpoint's openness may actually play into 6v6 better than some other transitional modes/maps (thinking push & clash), though I haven't played it myself.
Also if map design is the solution to the space problem of 6v6, I think that is why source is the best engine. You can easily create a whole in-theme flank route in the span of a week without issues. Man I love source. Gosh, what a genius engine.
Very good and valid point
U make it seem that reworking maps is something easy. How long did it take to fix Colloseo? Paris and Horizon Lunar Colony were never really competitively playable. What about maps which always felt good in 6v6 like Kings Row and have now (!?) the space problem. Rework them too?
I do not think u can compensate the general gameplay difference between 6v6 and 5v5 with ur idea. U just have to accept that either mode has its flaws and strenghts.
Idk how being at a choke point for almost 15 min considered as fun especially for casuals who makes up most of the player base
@@terramater4679 I never meant to make it sound easy, I even mentioned the resources aren’t there at the moment, but rather wanted to point out that it’s a mostly untouched point of balance for OW.
There’s also two different questions at play here: one of theory/potential (which format provides the foundation best possible game) and one of practicality (which format is the more practical to balance to a point of being more fun than the other). Even in this video, where Spilo remains mostly neutral, I’d argue he concedes the first to 6v6 so the point of contention is practicality. My point about space through map balancing is actually reframing Spilo’s point for 5v5 from the theoretical question to the practical one.
In a sense, Spilo argues the tradeoff for 6v6 over 5v5 is the contesting of space for non-tank roles is worse off for the game (if it is not worse off but simply different, IMO the point is lost). This point is as to why 5v5 could arguably have a better foundation/potentiality over 6v6. However, from taking map balance into consideration, could it not be possible that instead the maps were changed to account for the loss of space? If this point stands, Spilo's point now becomes it is IMPRACTICAL to change the maps, which is an argument for practicality as opposed to theory, ergo, 6v6 has more potential.
I'd push further that map balance patches aren't actually THAT difficult (though not easy), its just not a priority for balance for the devs, and has very rarely been one.
I'm not going to affirm the point is flawless. The case could be that there is no possible change to maps to fix the loss of space issue. Though, I am skeptical of this since a large part of the praise for Marvel Rivals is the space a map provides is more prevalent & accessible to characters than OW's maps.
Also for the colloseo issue, we don’t (to my knowledge) know how much actual development time was spent on that change. There is a different between map release, outcry for a change, development of that change, and when the project is completed and pushed out.
And for previously beloved maps, if we find that Kings Row, knowing what we know now that we have experienced 5v5 and the ease of access for space, would benefit from changes, those changes should be made, so long as player sentiment is there.
tl:dr
I didn't mean to make it sound easy, but I think there is potential in map changes for 6v6 to fix the issue of the loss of space somewhat invalidating (rather reframing) the tradeoff Spilo presents in the video. Whether it's practical is a different question IMO.
wow you grew a lot so fast, i still remember when you had the verse from John on the bottom right.