To give some context: The first game between me and LUL was the Semifinal of the European Weekend Tourney on Saturday. The 2nd game between LUL and Munqst was the Final. Both great games! And congrats to Munqst, he really earned that badge!
In my experience - the reason you notice the stormcallers doing too much damage when tower debuff is active - is that the debuff appears to be applied to units rather than to the projectiles themselves. If the unit dies while the projectile is in the air, the projectile will end up doing full damage even if the projectile was launched when debuff was active. (Conversely, this means if a projectile is fired before tower debuff, and debuff applies while in mid air, the damage is still reduced.)
@@paniccheck I think what they're saying is that the debuff only applies to *units*, and the projectiles are linked to the firing unit for stats. Add to that the fun fact that if a unit *dies*, then it is no longer suffering the debuff. And thus its projectiles in flight which it fired go back to full strength, even though the debuff is still applying to the rest of the army.
I believe that the stormcallers deal full damage when the missiles hit after all units have been destroyed. So, when Red "won" the round and the game simulated the next 2 seconds after, the stormcaller missiles did full damage. (re 12:30)
I think the Stormcaller full damage bug at 11:40 happens, because they die while the projectiles are in the air, meaning the debuff is on the unit not the projectile, maybe.
Thats... a really good suggestion, actualy. Its risky, BUT one missile gets through and no more interceptors, and with a ton of missiles already in the air from all those stormcallers the odds that one EMP gets through is not that bad at all.
I think teching anything else with emp is better than yoloing the storms directly into your opponents counter. Like arc range. They still take chaff give them emp and one will land. Or marksman if you have enough clear. Pheonix but more expensive. If wf has low chaff Phoenix can disable it at the start of the fight
I think if LUL specced into Range on the War Factories that last match and last round he would have potentially won. Letting the spawned pheonix tank the melting points instead. Also the chaff to get infront of them. Maybe he would still lose but it would def be closer.
One thing I tried was was factory with missile intercept against 5 packs of storms and 2 packs of fangs for chaff. The wf wins. And 4 storms basically never land. 3 storms is 100% nothing will hit near it. I think electro can counter but it's risky. If someone goes double wf missile they're basically immune to missiles.
I have been and still am considering it, but before anything I need to get properly well again. For now, looking to stream the tournament again on Wednesday if possible.
Pausing the vid a few times, you can see the attack animation was already started a few moments before the tower fell. Could be that the game checks for the debuff at attack start, not on impact.
Doubling down on the stormcallers was deffinitely NOT the play. Seeing the 2nd war factory with missile interceptors should have been the clue to drop the stormcallers with extreme prejudice and possibly even outright sell them, transitioning into more Melting Points and possibly steel balls to tank OR pivoting heavliy into Air with more Phoenixes, Overlords and Wasps. If your hitting your head againts a brick wall, doubling down on hitting that wall harder is NOT the winning move.
Hey so to give you an idea about the decisions involved here: The problem I was facing was removing the chaff in time for the melters to lock on to the factories. Just adding more melters wouldn't have done much for that. An air pivot was a potentially poor option becasue LUL had phoenix spawn as one of this techs and I guessed he would activate it (he did). This also negated the usefulness of balls. Mustangs were an option I considered, but they would have only worked for one round becasue LUL now had storm superiority and could easily pivot to fire. I really didn't have good options at this point. I chose to go overloaded firecaller with oil since only a few missiles had to get through to set the ground on fire and kill the chaff.
to be fair, doubling down is not ALWAYS incorrect. More specifically, in the past where the only missile intercept was the tech on mustangs, it often worked to build more stormcallers with launcher overload to overwhelm the mustangs. So that specific strat actually worked quite often in the past. Not anymore against MI turrets or MI War Factory though
@@doxun7823 You were deffinitely in a tough spot there. I doubt either of my suggestions was gonna turn things around either by that point, but seeing just HOW good those interceptors were, from where I was standing anyway, more stormcaller was never going to work as that was just going to encourage more War Factories. Which would spawn more phoenixes. And that would just create a new problem you had no anwser to. And by that point you needing to counter the phoenixes while LUL could throw whatever else your side of the board wasnt good at dealing with into the mix was going to grind you down too fast for you to counter both threats.
@@idlecub Deffinitely agree, in the past that did seem to have a good chance of success, but the War factory interceptors are not only really good, the War factories themselves are a giant rolling pool of HP, which Stormcallers arent good at dealing with AND they "develop the board" by introducing an actual threat that needs to be dealt with while also shutting down anything with missiles HARD.
To give some context: The first game between me and LUL was the Semifinal of the European Weekend Tourney on Saturday. The 2nd game between LUL and Munqst was the Final. Both great games! And congrats to Munqst, he really earned that badge!
For some reason I edited out the part where I explained the tournament context lol
my brain is mush because sick :
@@idlecub get well soon!
Thanks Doxun
In my experience - the reason you notice the stormcallers doing too much damage when tower debuff is active - is that the debuff appears to be applied to units rather than to the projectiles themselves. If the unit dies while the projectile is in the air, the projectile will end up doing full damage even if the projectile was launched when debuff was active.
(Conversely, this means if a projectile is fired before tower debuff, and debuff applies while in mid air, the damage is still reduced.)
Have you tested that? I thought I had seen the debuff applied to even marksman projectiles that were already en route when tower goes down.
@@paniccheck I think what they're saying is that the debuff only applies to *units*, and the projectiles are linked to the firing unit for stats. Add to that the fun fact that if a unit *dies*, then it is no longer suffering the debuff. And thus its projectiles in flight which it fired go back to full strength, even though the debuff is still applying to the rest of the army.
I believe that the stormcallers deal full damage when the missiles hit after all units have been destroyed. So, when Red "won" the round and the game simulated the next 2 seconds after, the stormcaller missiles did full damage. (re 12:30)
I think the Stormcaller full damage bug at 11:40 happens, because they die while the projectiles are in the air, meaning the debuff is on the unit not the projectile, maybe.
Doxun should have picked up emp on stromcall or transition into emp wasps or just simply on the melters it is crucial to shut down warfactory tech's
I agree stormcaller EMP might have worked because if a single missile got through it would have shut down the intereceptor tech :)
Thats... a really good suggestion, actualy. Its risky, BUT one missile gets through and no more interceptors, and with a ton of missiles already in the air from all those stormcallers the odds that one EMP gets through is not that bad at all.
Yeah at the end look at the WF on the left. Dying to fire, so definitely would have gotten a few EMP missiles through
You need 5 to reliably hit the wf 4 can but you know how they the one that gets through can just miss too.
I think teching anything else with emp is better than yoloing the storms directly into your opponents counter. Like arc range. They still take chaff give them emp and one will land. Or marksman if you have enough clear. Pheonix but more expensive. If wf has low chaff Phoenix can disable it at the start of the fight
"orange man specialist" should be what its called now
I think if LUL specced into Range on the War Factories that last match and last round he would have potentially won.
Letting the spawned pheonix tank the melting points instead. Also the chaff to get infront of them. Maybe he would still lose but it would def be closer.
btw a unit with parasite that kills a warfactory spawns 70 crawler. 70!
HOLY xD
One thing I tried was was factory with missile intercept against 5 packs of storms and 2 packs of fangs for chaff.
The wf wins. And 4 storms basically never land. 3 storms is 100% nothing will hit near it.
I think electro can counter but it's risky. If someone goes double wf missile they're basically immune to missiles.
If a unit die and the projective is on the way, the projective make full dmg, this bug is ingame since the game exist.
I saw that Munqst match live, he was so upset with the War Factory gameplay lol.
Hey cub, do you stream more than just the tournaments? Or would you consider it? I love hearing your insights into why a move is good/bad
I have been and still am considering it, but before anything I need to get properly well again.
For now, looking to stream the tournament again on Wednesday if possible.
@@idlecub Awesome! Hope you get better fast 😃
You stream only on TH-cam? Or Twitch also?
For Wednesday I will try and set up so I can stream YT and twitch at the same time.
It's funny to hear you say 'lul', which is a dutch swearing word. 😂
it is also a twitch emote lol
what does it mean in dutch?
Basically the same as 'd*ck' 👍
The English equivalent would be dick, so it's slang for penis and also used as an insult. @@idlecub
why there is sc1 protoss soundtrack in the background?
why not? :>
Wtf was going on there with the left Meltingpoint at 37:35?
"just" a visual bug, but has been in the game for quite some time now.
Pausing the vid a few times, you can see the attack animation was already started a few moments before the tower fell. Could be that the game checks for the debuff at attack start, not on impact.
I'm *FIRST* moe fugger malt liqrahs! How can you go so many rounds without addressing the lack of air superiority? An amazing comeback.
hey cub, you sound sick?
Yeah, have been for a couple of days now :(
crazy 2nd game
Doubling down on the stormcallers was deffinitely NOT the play. Seeing the 2nd war factory with missile interceptors should have been the clue to drop the stormcallers with extreme prejudice and possibly even outright sell them, transitioning into more Melting Points and possibly steel balls to tank OR pivoting heavliy into Air with more Phoenixes, Overlords and Wasps.
If your hitting your head againts a brick wall, doubling down on hitting that wall harder is NOT the winning move.
Hey so to give you an idea about the decisions involved here: The problem I was facing was removing the chaff in time for the melters to lock on to the factories. Just adding more melters wouldn't have done much for that. An air pivot was a potentially poor option becasue LUL had phoenix spawn as one of this techs and I guessed he would activate it (he did). This also negated the usefulness of balls. Mustangs were an option I considered, but they would have only worked for one round becasue LUL now had storm superiority and could easily pivot to fire. I really didn't have good options at this point. I chose to go overloaded firecaller with oil since only a few missiles had to get through to set the ground on fire and kill the chaff.
to be fair, doubling down is not ALWAYS incorrect. More specifically, in the past where the only missile intercept was the tech on mustangs, it often worked to build more stormcallers with launcher overload to overwhelm the mustangs. So that specific strat actually worked quite often in the past.
Not anymore against MI turrets or MI War Factory though
@@idlecub Oh regular MI turrets were actually nerfed. But yeah WF interceptor is very strong now.
@@doxun7823 You were deffinitely in a tough spot there. I doubt either of my suggestions was gonna turn things around either by that point, but seeing just HOW good those interceptors were, from where I was standing anyway, more stormcaller was never going to work as that was just going to encourage more War Factories. Which would spawn more phoenixes. And that would just create a new problem you had no anwser to. And by that point you needing to counter the phoenixes while LUL could throw whatever else your side of the board wasnt good at dealing with into the mix was going to grind you down too fast for you to counter both threats.
@@idlecub Deffinitely agree, in the past that did seem to have a good chance of success, but the War factory interceptors are not only really good, the War factories themselves are a giant rolling pool of HP, which Stormcallers arent good at dealing with AND they "develop the board" by introducing an actual threat that needs to be dealt with while also shutting down anything with missiles HARD.
this stormcaller meta sucks