For starters... first, get rid of the dumb penalty for splitting fire when guided. That penalty is totally unnecessary and severely punishes units that have multiple weapon systems that are intended to target different unit types. Second, reduce the stormsurge's cost to 360 points. The stormsurge is clearly not as good as two riptides so 360 points (the cost of two riptides) is a good starting point for honing in on what the stormsurge should actually cost.
Please can we have a [Secondary Weapon] prefix rule? One that lets that weapon profile choose to split fire without the penalty, even if it can't benefit from another spotter
So on the Ret Cadre point…in the lore, it isn’t a battlesuit. It’s a ballistic suit. I know, I know, stupid, and I’d love for it to get the battle suit key word but that’s probably their justification for it. However, that difference is how I’d fix it with rules. Because the difference between a battlesuit and a ballistic suit is the number of pilots it has - 1 v 2. So what I’d do, if they’re not going to remove the split fire penalty, is give the Stormsurge a rule that says it can be guided twice by observer units into two different targets simultaneously. The penalty here is that you use up two of your observer resources to guide it, but…I think that’s a trade I’d happily make!
It's really frustrating that we can't ignore the -1 BS for splitfire with the weapon support system... If this small ability allowed us to do so, then the splitfire penalty wouldn't be as bad and the surge could be more cost effective. Having it be a battlesuit might be a bit OP though in ret cadre especially with access to +1 Str and AP, Arrokon protocol and MOSTLY the auto explode stratagem (it would be hilarious though haha). I tried a double Stormsurge list with good success last weekend in Montka, and it's definitely the detachement the surge works best in right now to me. Especially with the 6"' scout you can give it, moving 14" and shooting for 3 turns, and the -1 damage stratagem that helps it tank through a ton of stuff. The next thing I want to try is having them come in with a free rapid ingress thanks to a Stealth team. I'm positive this is the way to play double stormsurge. First one on the field, and second one ready to deploy with free rapid ingress.
As a newer player and a Kroot enjoyer, I have had some casual success vs Orks with the 500 point SS+SS combo, Shadowsun camping by the Stormsurge to give it reroll 1s and Guiding it when it wants to be Guided. But now, with the Crisis points drops, 420 points for 2 Enforcer+Fireknife units may just be better for the points (with enough leftover for a Strike Team, a half-unit of Carnivores, another Shaper, whatever. Stormsurge has 24ish S5 AP0 D1 attacks, 10 of which are Twin-Linked, a good Strength but low-volume main gun no matter which you take, and a plinky little destroyer missile that barely ever does anything (at least in my experience). With the Enforcer+Fireknife together, you get the 10 Twin-Linked S5 AP0 D1 shots as well, but with 20 S7 AP-1 D2 shots instead of the Clusters, Destroyer, and Pulse Cannon, and there's 2 of those units, so it's really 20 TL S5 shots and 40 S7 shots for the points. The built-in rerolls mean you don't need to spend the points on Shadowsun or Stealth Suits, and they can Guide each other to get even better shooting (or Guide both with Strike Teams if you have them), and they'll be a lot more consistent against anything that isn't T14+, but you usually ignore things that tough anyway and Kroot have Rampagers' Lance and charge mortals plus free War Shaper Grenades now to help deal with that. Plus, anything that chunky is probably a Vehicle which means you can spam EMP Grenades and keep it tangled so it does almost nothing (making a Tesseract Vault hit on 5s feels very good). Even in terms of tankiness it's bringing double the number of Wounds to the table at half the Toughness but with no Invuln, but with Enforcer they're making the same save against anything AP-2 or less anyway and they're gonna be a much more mobile unit with their higher movement and smaller models. I really love the Stormsurge but as a newer player it really needs something to give it more oomph or give it more of a Distraction Carnifex effect like Ghostkeels do, but it doesn't strike the balance between size, firepower, and tankiness that it needs to for that. Except in Mont'ka where you can rush it into peoples faces but even then it may not do that job.
i also agree for the Stormsurge Changes (i will get one in a few days) also the Split Fire penalty hurts in a lot of ways, like shooting (Guided) in a Full unit but wan´t to finish a small almost dead unit on the way is almost not possible hitting on 5s.
I love Stormsurges since they are a rare tough and deadly unit in the tau roster. Usually, it's one or the other. The main issue I have with them is that their unit rules work for themselves. While the army rule hinders it greatly and the detachments are really straining on how it can help if at all.
@@pantheonstudiosaustralia I'm building a Kroot Detachment myself and have included it for that very reason. My logic is that I don't have very many models capable of being spotters. So with so few Guides potential, the thing you want to guide should be the biggest and baddest thing. We'll see.
Both the Tau Super Heavy walkers need point drops, Stormsurges could be 360ish, and Ta'unar needs to be 700. 100% on the Splitfire clause needs to be removed. If you dont target the spotted unit, you should not get the benefit. There doesn't need a negative because the negative is that you dont get the positive. All Super Heavy Walkers need to get the new Knight rule of being able to walk through walls, and Stormsurges and Ta'unars will get the benefit. Overall, I agree with the Stormsurge changes. The final change I would add is for the Ta'unar, give it the battlesuit keyword, its a battlesuit in the lore, unlike the Stormsurge.
The -1 BS penalty for split firing has to go, because it unnecessarily hurts all of our units that have more than one weapon profile, from the humble Devilfish to the majestic Stormsurge. No other shooting faction has such a penalty baked in and we are supposed to be THE shooting faction (also because unlike Guard or Admech, we have no melee to speak of). It is unfair and it makes absolutely no sense. Playing against the new Admech recently with their stealth for most of their army and now with arguably better shooting than T'au was an absolute nightmare. It also needs a serious points drop.
Well.... we do have Kroot now, especially the Rampagers. Tau finally have decent non-Fire Warrior/Farsight screeners and melee options. As much as the FTGG split fire sucks, people would start calling Tau overpowered again without it on some level. I do think some units, like the Stormsurge, should suffer less from the penalty, though.
@@jakegray1723 Yeah, but the melee options are really only viable as such in the Kroot detachment. Admittedly, Kroot Carnivores are good screening units, but it's not like we have anything like Sicarian Ruststalkers/Infiltrators or Ogryns, who also pack a serious punch. Plus, our shooting is literally not the best, but our only option to do serious damage. I'd argue that Guard shoots quite a bit harder at the moment, while being more durable, having higher range and not having to deal with a penalty for shooting their guns into things these guns are actually good against. In short, removing the split fire penalty would probably no make us overpowered in light of what some other factions can dish out at the moment.
I recently played my stormsurge and it definitely an underwhelming weapon support system. I did however destroy a 2x stompa list, but other than that it shot all weapons into a group of paladins and didn't even deal 1 wound. The lack of AP on all its secondary weapons is quite sad. For 400 points T11 20w 2+ 4++ is not that hard to take down. I hope Gw makes this unit viable one day
Unpopular opinion but I don't like the stormsurge. I think titanic models just like flyers are broken and too difficult to balance. Pricing them out is good for the game.
For starters... first, get rid of the dumb penalty for splitting fire when guided. That penalty is totally unnecessary and severely punishes units that have multiple weapon systems that are intended to target different unit types. Second, reduce the stormsurge's cost to 360 points. The stormsurge is clearly not as good as two riptides so 360 points (the cost of two riptides) is a good starting point for honing in on what the stormsurge should actually cost.
I demand JUSTICE for the Stormsurge. And even though we stopped caring about them, JUSTICE for the Strike Team. Why can't they even be "just ok"?
Please can we have a [Secondary Weapon] prefix rule? One that lets that weapon profile choose to split fire without the penalty, even if it can't benefit from another spotter
So on the Ret Cadre point…in the lore, it isn’t a battlesuit. It’s a ballistic suit. I know, I know, stupid, and I’d love for it to get the battle suit key word but that’s probably their justification for it. However, that difference is how I’d fix it with rules. Because the difference between a battlesuit and a ballistic suit is the number of pilots it has - 1 v 2.
So what I’d do, if they’re not going to remove the split fire penalty, is give the Stormsurge a rule that says it can be guided twice by observer units into two different targets simultaneously.
The penalty here is that you use up two of your observer resources to guide it, but…I think that’s a trade I’d happily make!
That's a great idea
It's really frustrating that we can't ignore the -1 BS for splitfire with the weapon support system... If this small ability allowed us to do so, then the splitfire penalty wouldn't be as bad and the surge could be more cost effective.
Having it be a battlesuit might be a bit OP though in ret cadre especially with access to +1 Str and AP, Arrokon protocol and MOSTLY the auto explode stratagem (it would be hilarious though haha).
I tried a double Stormsurge list with good success last weekend in Montka, and it's definitely the detachement the surge works best in right now to me. Especially with the 6"' scout you can give it, moving 14" and shooting for 3 turns, and the -1 damage stratagem that helps it tank through a ton of stuff.
The next thing I want to try is having them come in with a free rapid ingress thanks to a Stealth team. I'm positive this is the way to play double stormsurge. First one on the field, and second one ready to deploy with free rapid ingress.
Just don't guide it. Keep shadowsun nearby
That Hermione cut was perfection.
As a newer player and a Kroot enjoyer, I have had some casual success vs Orks with the 500 point SS+SS combo, Shadowsun camping by the Stormsurge to give it reroll 1s and Guiding it when it wants to be Guided. But now, with the Crisis points drops, 420 points for 2 Enforcer+Fireknife units may just be better for the points (with enough leftover for a Strike Team, a half-unit of Carnivores, another Shaper, whatever.
Stormsurge has 24ish S5 AP0 D1 attacks, 10 of which are Twin-Linked, a good Strength but low-volume main gun no matter which you take, and a plinky little destroyer missile that barely ever does anything (at least in my experience).
With the Enforcer+Fireknife together, you get the 10 Twin-Linked S5 AP0 D1 shots as well, but with 20 S7 AP-1 D2 shots instead of the Clusters, Destroyer, and Pulse Cannon, and there's 2 of those units, so it's really 20 TL S5 shots and 40 S7 shots for the points. The built-in rerolls mean you don't need to spend the points on Shadowsun or Stealth Suits, and they can Guide each other to get even better shooting (or Guide both with Strike Teams if you have them), and they'll be a lot more consistent against anything that isn't T14+, but you usually ignore things that tough anyway and Kroot have Rampagers' Lance and charge mortals plus free War Shaper Grenades now to help deal with that. Plus, anything that chunky is probably a Vehicle which means you can spam EMP Grenades and keep it tangled so it does almost nothing (making a Tesseract Vault hit on 5s feels very good).
Even in terms of tankiness it's bringing double the number of Wounds to the table at half the Toughness but with no Invuln, but with Enforcer they're making the same save against anything AP-2 or less anyway and they're gonna be a much more mobile unit with their higher movement and smaller models.
I really love the Stormsurge but as a newer player it really needs something to give it more oomph or give it more of a Distraction Carnifex effect like Ghostkeels do, but it doesn't strike the balance between size, firepower, and tankiness that it needs to for that. Except in Mont'ka where you can rush it into peoples faces but even then it may not do that job.
i also agree for the Stormsurge Changes (i will get one in a few days) also the Split Fire penalty hurts in a lot of ways, like shooting (Guided) in a Full unit but wan´t to finish a small almost dead unit on the way is almost not possible hitting on 5s.
360 points, and make it a battlesuit for ret cadre.
Fantastic video fella, just working on my own stormy atm, so perfect timing for this video :)
I love Stormsurges since they are a rare tough and deadly unit in the tau roster. Usually, it's one or the other. The main issue I have with them is that their unit rules work for themselves. While the army rule hinders it greatly and the detachments are really straining on how it can help if at all.
You mentioned that Stormsurge would be kinda useful in a Kroot detachment. Why so?
Provides necessary fire support. Not in the best spot, but can work
@@pantheonstudiosaustralia I'm building a Kroot Detachment myself and have included it for that very reason.
My logic is that I don't have very many models capable of being spotters. So with so few Guides potential, the thing you want to guide should be the biggest and baddest thing. We'll see.
Come on GW, just let me run my triple stormsurges!
Take a Tiger Shark instead (or 2). They are cheaper than 2 Hammerheads or 2 SkyRay or Stormsurge. Basically a sonic Riptide with 2 Railguns.
Both the Tau Super Heavy walkers need point drops, Stormsurges could be 360ish, and Ta'unar needs to be 700.
100% on the Splitfire clause needs to be removed. If you dont target the spotted unit, you should not get the benefit. There doesn't need a negative because the negative is that you dont get the positive. All Super Heavy Walkers need to get the new Knight rule of being able to walk through walls, and Stormsurges and Ta'unars will get the benefit. Overall, I agree with the Stormsurge changes. The final change I would add is for the Ta'unar, give it the battlesuit keyword, its a battlesuit in the lore, unlike the Stormsurge.
Agreed! The rule Knighta got, did update for Imperial Titans without it being stated, but NOT for other armies with Titanic Walkers
New to 40K. Am I missing something when it says any or all hit modifiers why can you just ignore the -bs and keep +bs when split firing while guided?
Hit mods are separate from bs mods. Which is how a heavy weapon can get +1 to hit and +1 bs making them hit on 2's
@@pantheonstudiosaustralia Ohhh gotcha. I see where I went wrong thank you.
The -1 BS penalty for split firing has to go, because it unnecessarily hurts all of our units that have more than one weapon profile, from the humble Devilfish to the majestic Stormsurge. No other shooting faction has such a penalty baked in and we are supposed to be THE shooting faction (also because unlike Guard or Admech, we have no melee to speak of). It is unfair and it makes absolutely no sense. Playing against the new Admech recently with their stealth for most of their army and now with arguably better shooting than T'au was an absolute nightmare. It also needs a serious points drop.
Well.... we do have Kroot now, especially the Rampagers. Tau finally have decent non-Fire Warrior/Farsight screeners and melee options. As much as the FTGG split fire sucks, people would start calling Tau overpowered again without it on some level. I do think some units, like the Stormsurge, should suffer less from the penalty, though.
@@jakegray1723 Yeah, but the melee options are really only viable as such in the Kroot detachment. Admittedly, Kroot Carnivores are good screening units, but it's not like we have anything like Sicarian Ruststalkers/Infiltrators or Ogryns, who also pack a serious punch. Plus, our shooting is literally not the best, but our only option to do serious damage. I'd argue that Guard shoots quite a bit harder at the moment, while being more durable, having higher range and not having to deal with a penalty for shooting their guns into things these guns are actually good against. In short, removing the split fire penalty would probably no make us overpowered in light of what some other factions can dish out at the moment.
I recently played my stormsurge and it definitely an underwhelming weapon support system. I did however destroy a 2x stompa list, but other than that it shot all weapons into a group of paladins and didn't even deal 1 wound. The lack of AP on all its secondary weapons is quite sad. For 400 points T11 20w 2+ 4++ is not that hard to take down. I hope Gw makes this unit viable one day
The split fire is hit main target on 3's and other targets on 5's not 4's no?
Yeah on 5's
Unpopular opinion but I don't like the stormsurge. I think titanic models just like flyers are broken and too difficult to balance. Pricing them out is good for the game.
Haha
Hunger strike