I think partly soundwaves through the air, and partly vibrations from the speaker via the floor. I have put weights on top of my speakers and that has tightened the imaging significantly. And every upgrade with isolation pucks under the electronics has made a huge difference. Even the micro vibrations play a part in how well the gear is performing. I also have weights on top of my DAC and CD-player, in addition to the isolation pucks.
I try this at least twice a week, and the reason for the vibration is shitty equipment, you have to spend way more money. Let's find happiness together through spending more money on toys!
you have to put the bottles on the floor to see if the decoupling of the speakers to the floor works and the same with racks bottle on the floor and bottle on the rack
Your final hypothesis…the tracks generated more vibrations than the cabinet structure, at the time these were made, was capable of absorbing. Today’s structural results are superior. Try this on the new Magico flagship.
Hey Jay, good attempt. As other people have said, the speakers will move, can't avoid that. Point is that they're ideally de-coupled from the ground they're sitting on. To test this accurately need to place water on the ground with and without the de-couplers on the system.
At that sound pressure level in the room the bottles should vibrate some from airborne pressure waves. Put them on the floor and/ or a table. You could be measuring standing waves in the room. Another test might be to try them on the speaker without them being on the Footers.
Jay, I think the better way to do it is to check the sound of a decoupled speaker from the sound of a speaker directly sitting (connected) to the ground. I did this, decoupled speakers sounded really much better.
I think that the speaker is vibrating by itself because of the woofer movement. When you place the bottles on your amplifier the air that the woofer moves hit the bottle and energy is transferred to the water but still visually we can see the water moves much less because in this case there are no moving parts inside your amplifier. Anyway you have to take in consideration that not all frequencies are audible, meaning that even though you see the water moves doesn't necessarily mean that it affects what you are hearing.
Not sure why you're confused, you can't stop low end. Not even concrete walls can, it travels right through it to an extent. Why do you think neighbors hear only the low end at their end. Also where your equipment is at, most speakers will not have influence from the speakers to such an extend. They are at the null point of the speakers dispersion range. Behind it not much is happening (where your DAC is at) The bulk amount of energy is going towards your seat. No offense its basic physics, also every speaker resonates. Even planars do from the baffle . It's well understood and voiced (good speakers like yours clearly are) taking that into account. That's where measurements become relevant. I feel there is a bit of hyper focus going on. Jay.....just sit down and enjoy my brother.
Wouldn’t the water in bottle movement when placed on top of the speaker indicate how well the speaker cabinet is damped? And any other movement would just be from the way your speakers are pressurizing the room?
@@Carl-bd1rf I’m not sure if you got to see the short snip-it video he used as the teaser for this full video, but many called out that fact and brought up that the speakers are t inert and for the given price that it’s pretty rediculous.
@@williambracken1447 I know I was one of em calling it out. The fact Jay doesn’t get it is disturbing. Anyone with any kind of audio knowledge understands this.
@Carl-bd1rf You're seeing a whole team of psychiatrists, aren't you? There are many reasons this test is faulty. One is that the bass varies in the room so placing bottles on the speaker and again 3 feet lower is invalid.
The fact that the water vibrates most on the speakers and in the cooling fins may suggest that pressure waves in the room are causing the vibration in lieu of the equipment itself. Allow me to explain, if we look at the amplifier. The greatest vibration is in the bottle on the cooling fins. One distinct difference between the fins and the rest of the amplifier is that the fins are narrower. Thus, they produce the least stability. Hence, the greatest vibration from pressure fluctuations. This hypothesis potentially explains the water vibrating the most at the speakers. The speakers are located close to the side walls, where the reflections are the greatest. The amp, on the other hand, has the speakers shielding them from the direct impact of the reflections. ‘Just my 2 cents..
What you need is a accelerometer. You can pick up a USB accelerometer for around $400. This will allow measuring the vibrations of the cabinet without picking up the airborne vibrations. Will also give you actual measurements and not just a visual representation using vibrating water.
hi Jay I enjoyed this test. the music wasn't as bad as you said😂. what made the water in the bottles move was the energy that the speakers transmitted to the bottle. the more energy something emits, the more reaction it has to its environment. in this case the bottles of water and the piece of paper that you held in front of the speaker. You may have disconnected the speakers from the floor, but not from the bottles of water. If you were to also disconnect the bottles from the speakers, this should also be visible. anyway, nice lab research.
Hi. I'm pretty sure it's the speaker that's vibrating. you did it on the power amp which is not very far from the speaker and it vibrated in Princip nothing at all then. so it's a pretty easy one to understand.
Great effort! Now that we know the "A" it would be beneficial to see the "B" of the A B test. This would mean putting the electronics on the floor and repeating the same playback test. Similarly with the speakers, but that is less likely as the weigh a lot. Thanks Jay!
Passive isolation footers or platforms only isolate vertical floor borne vibrations (typically effective above 15Hz at best )…and they do nothing to mitigate air borne or other vibrations acting in horizontal or oblique angles. Also, the vibration generated by the device itself (eg Speakers) cannot be isolated…it needs to be damped. Hence you see the water vibrating sympathetically with the speaker vibration. The most effective way isolate and damp vibration coming from all angles is with active isolation. They can be effective down to 0.7hz. The most damaging vibrations are the ones at sub bass level…below 10Hz. I use Seismion Reactio plus and Reactio 2 isolation platforms. Under equipments that benefit from isolation the difference is not subtle. Thanks for posting this test.
@@DynamicAudio I've tried damping on speakers and it tends to soften and dull the sound slightly. Same with adding heavy weight. Haven't found a good solution yet, but my speakers still sound fantastic anyway.
When you put the water bottles on top of the speakers, they are moving because the speaker has vibration and they are directly on it. It may be more indicative if they move placed on the floor out of the speaker's direct line of sight (influence), where they can only be affected by the speakers vibrating the ground and not pushing the air. If the foots are good isolators, then the ground would move less and hence the bottles would move less.
What volume is your bass knob set to, and do you have a loudness setting, I can see that the speakers barely move And do you have cardboard walls or stone And glass would be better, i put glass with water on my car engine to test vibrations
If the speakers are producing the vibration themselves , how do you test the di cooling by putting water bottles on top ? Also the amp does not produce any vibration ,could you explain how putting the water on the amp measure vibration?😮
Might be fun to use the accelerometer in the iPhone. There are a bunch of apps available. But might not be sensitive enough. Have you compared the Magico MPODs to the Critical Mass Feet? They only take about 30 to 40 minutes to settle in. Yes, you will of course have to duck a bit in your chair to adjust your ear height to be fair about the comparisons. Thanks for the fun demos!
Jay, enjoyed the video. I too was into car audio in the 90’s. I would think the low frequency sound waves hitting the flimsy water bottles could move into the water making the sound wave visible. I would like to see another test using glass Vox water bottles that won’t flex as much since they are glass vs plastic. If you use plastic again use something flat like a smart water bottle. That way it would be easier to see the water showing the sound wave.
Jay you’re an expert on audio equipment big time and I’m a huge fan! but you have no clue what music can really torture and test your gear, you want to get real I will give you 5 bands 5 tracks will REALLY test everything!! You’re so far off it’s nuts.
I think speaker cabinet are suppose to resonate with the sound the actual isolation feet is to isolate vibration coming from your speakers onto the floor
You have to keep in mind that the speaker will have some flex and movement from the air movement me vibration of the movement within the speaker cones, inside the speaker itself, therefore a little more vibration that what you see on the equipment. Try a relatively inexpensive speaker and see how much more vibration you will see. The majicos are fairly rigid and inert compared to mdf speakers at a more entry level price point.
Love your videos! I am sorry to say, but I know exactly what is going on. Your speaker decoupled, do exactly what they are supposed to do, decouple the speakers from the floor. This means that all vibrations, stays in your speakers. This has an unfortunate effect on your speakers, meaning your speakers moves with the sound. It smears out the speakers sound. If you want the absolute best sound and least vibration, do you have to hard couple the speakers to the floor. If you can bolt them to the concrete so it has no chance of moving at all, do you move the vibrations from your speakers and down into your floor. You have already decoupled your gear from the floor, so these vibrations should not have any negative effect on that. Your speaker placement is maybe not optimal, since the soundwaves makes the bottles move on your amplifier. EDIT: Decouples is often a misunderstood subject. Decouples are not leading the vibration from the unit and down to the floor, they do instead prevent the speakers vibrations from reaching the floor, thereby decouple the speakers from the floor and prevent vibration in going down to the floor and up to your gear. EDIT2: You can try to place a couple of bottles behind your speakers and if they do not vibrate that much, can you see for yourself that no vibration from your speakers is reaching the floor.
Jay,even if the footers could eliminate the vibration of the speakers 100 percent the bottles and water are inherently movable.The mechanical energy in the room produced by the sound waves will vibrate the bottles and water .They also vibrate your eardrums, try potting some footers on those.
The water bottles are a fun way to see vibrations but they must be pretty strong to be visible. An accelerometer with an FFT analyzer would tell you the full story. It doesn't take much vibration in electronics to affect the sound- particularly the imaging and sound stage. Vibration levels not visible in water bottles. Airborne vibrations would have to be really strong to see in the water bottles. The fact that you didn't see the water move on the preamps shows that it was not airborne causes. Concrete is a plastic. So even concrete will conduct mechanical vibration. Try the water bottles on the floor beside the speaker.
Of course the speakers will vibrate, that’s a no brainer. Place bottles on the floor to see if the floor is resonating and distorting sound on the room.
Jay please download an vibration meter on your phone, this way you can easily see ifs airborne or the cabinet, further more I would love it if you tryout Townshend platforms under the Magicos because they did wonders under my closed ATC speakers, way more than different footer’s I’ve tried
I vibration app will give you more meaningful data. You can then know if you have made improvements rather then trying to tell how many ripples in the water.
Just thinking aloud. If in fact the water vibration seen on top of the speakers does show the vibration of the speakers themselves, would it therefore make more sense to have the low-frequency drivers (i.e.woofers) separated from the high- and mid-frequency drivers (i.e. tweeter and mid-range drivers) ? No wonder nowadays some audiophiles (and some brands) advocate having 2.1 or 2.2 speakers (and some flagship speakers come with bass towers).
I don´t listen to more than 87DB sound in my room as a maximum, once the quality of sound is good enough 90-100db+ is not necesary anymore. Only on bad systems or rooms that are totally dead is 90+DB necessary. My average DB is around 73DB. When you have giant problems with your system you have an average of around 80db+.
@@realhi-fihelplarry8047 Your funny, quality sound can’t be heard at 90-100db😂 Weak and distortion filled sound is what you have if it doesn’t sound and feel good at higher volumes. Many systems can sound good at 75db. Try reproducing a full blown symphony from the front row at 75db, doesn’t work. If your system can’t play clean and distortion free at high volumes then it isn’t hifi.
Hey Jay, So is the movement of the water from changes in air born pressure changes in the room or panel resonances from the speaker? We do accelerometer testing on speaker panels to see how much resonances there is. We also have a product that is designed to reduce panel resonances if that is a problem. So I have some experience in that department. From what I am seeing in the video it looks like we have a minimum about of water movement when placed on the amp and DAC, but quite a bit more when placed on the speaker. That tells me something. Before I get into that though.... About those footers under everything. The footers technically do NOT decouple anything. When weight is focused to a single set of points in minimizes the weight over a broad area and focuses the weight to small points where it is heavier at those points than if it were set flat against the floor. That couples the weight to the floor and makes it harder to move. So it is coupled and not de-coupled. What the devices you have are doing is adding a damper. Different types of material can be used to have different resonance frequencies that when stacked together prevent resonances from passing through them. Now here is the important part to consider. If the floor is lossy (meaning the floor will move as it is an upstairs or suspended floor) then it is useful to use dampers. This means that under the positive and negative pressure that the system is creating in the room, the floor flexes and moves. This movement can effect things that sit on the floor. So devises that allow damping between them will help. Also, expensive dampers are not required. A concrete block from Lowe's or home depot (less than $2.00) plus a slab of MDF and some spikes on the ends works super well for not much money at all. This dissimilar stack of material with the weight focused to the ends it really hard to pass a resonance through to any gear on top of it. Now! If the floor is a solid concrete floor then that floor is not going to move. It is a solid rock and then it is best to spike speakers straight to it. No additional dampers will alter anything in that application. Now back to what I was seeing in the video. It looks like the vibrations that you are seeing on the speakers is the result of a resonance of the top of the speaker caused by the pressure changes inside the speaker, flexing and exciting the top panel. A simple way to test if that is it or not is to place the water bottle on the edges of the top panel versus the middle of the top panel. If it vibrates more in the middle of the panel, then it is from the panel.
Are there companies who are producing these products claiming there will be zero vibrations if you use them?Using the speakers as an example, they are the ones producing all the vibrations.To see how effective the footers are,do a test without footers on the speakers and then one with the footers.How much of a difference is there:50 %,60 %....Even with the footers,the speakers still showed vibration vibration. ❤vibration.
In my listening room there are only the speakers, the equipment is in another room. That way you have the least amount of vibration in your audio equipment. Control is via an Ipad and Roon.
Lift one bottle an inch above the speaker while playing and see if it vibrates. If it does its the air born vibration, if not its your speaker cabinet. Put your speaker on your carpet and see it the water vibrates, if it does its speaker cabinets. Speaker cabinets vibrating is my guess. If it was airborn the other equipment would produce the same results?
it's NOT about "vibration".. it's about isolating cabinet RESONANCES and preventing the cabinet from getting muddied from having those resonances drained away or block from transmission. There is quite a difference between resonance and vibration, they are not interchangeable. EVERYTHING vibrates at different frequencies, what you want to do is prevent the resonances of those vibrations from both interfering with the speaker cabinet and reflected back to the speaker from it's stands. Consider the speaker feet as "valves" that either isolate or dampen the outward travel of speaker cabinet resonances and the inward or reflected vibrations or resonance back TO the speaker. The water bottle test is not really a useful test unless you are trying to see how much "vibration" can get back into a turntable. Sound itself is airborne pressure waves and if you get rid of all those "nasty" vibrations... you will have no sound at all. It's the resonance and the effect of those resonance on the speaker cabinet that will effect the quality of the sound the speaker transmits to your ears. That's what the footers, ALL footers, are designed, to more or lesser degrees, depending on the design criteria of the designer of those feet. Damping or isolation are the two that are mostly used.
Warning: If the USA puts a Tariff on Canada we'll have to stop buying USA products as much as possible. And likely some from other Countries would support us this way too. Let's hope it doesn't come to this, we're so much better off as friends and Allies. You would be shocked at how much Canada buys from the USA. We are the ones who are actually in a Trade deficit with the USA, the ones who should actually be charging a tax to do so much business here. As you can tell, we are quite offended. We have been such a strong supporter of the USA for so long.
Put your footers on top of your speakers and the water on them, see if theres any vibrational movement. If the water vibrates you have $8000 paper weights...
The fact that you could see the water move on top of the amps means those amp stands are useless in isolating your amplifiers. For a hundred bucks a piece I can build amp stands using compression springs that will completely isolate the amps from the floor. I have videos on WBF showing how it’s done.
Eliminating all vibration is not possible. The sound vibration is in the air. It you hung the bottle by a string it would vibrate. This cannot be eliminated. To me the equipment vibration is minimal. In addition I don’t think that track has a lot of low frequency parts to manage. Play Thanks to You by Boz Scaggs. That will bring some low end to the room.
Without a control using the water on the speaker and on the amplifier that's on the ground it's useless it just tells you the vibration they're currently you do not know the performance of what you're using to isolate. Also you're always going to have less vibrations on the amplifier versus the speaker as the vibration source is the speaker!!
I put Isoacoustics stands under my stand mount speakers. It definitely made a difference. My room is not dedicated to listening and I can only put my speakers on the corners of a dresser. So removing some of the vibration from resonating down into the dresser was a pretty big improvement. I can’t speak to if whether they would make a big difference in a dedicated room on actual stands though.
Fun video Jay. It would be interesting to remove the footers of one of the speakers and compare the vibration between the two. Would let you know if the footers are helping or not.
Hi Jay, it's useless you make me have a lot of fun, and it's nice to be able to play with these expensive things in this way too. Don't listen to those who will criticize you but keep going like this, you make me have fun. Great great great 👍🏻
Ding Dong the witch is dead , the witch is dead , ding dong the wicked Itch is dead . Hey that’s was actually sung at a Funeral 😂. Man all hell broke out after that .
One of your viewers made a great point about bass energy transmitted to the room causing components to resonate. Your room is well treated, and all components are decoupled from the floor and surrounding walls. Unless you have an anechoic chamber, it may be impossible to totally suppress unwanted resonances. I've spent time in an anechoic chamber, and with no room reflections, everything sounds muted, quiet and weird.
So, the speaker cabinet will shake unless you have a perfectly opposing force driver system with mirrored force vectors across the cabinet. Subwoofers designed this way indeed vibrate very little for the output. Even if the cabinet itself is not vibrating, air vibrations from the sound can still affect the surrounding area. What you want is to place your audio equipment at the vibrational troughs in your room where the sound phase cancels at the most impactful frequencies (120hz and below). Higher frequency sound will inevitably reach your equipment, that's where heavy, highly damped construction comes into play. I'm a fan of completely sealed structures because of this as sound can enter through vents in the chassis. I designed my Gainclone this way to excellent results.
basic physics …. speaker enclosure is NOT inert.. I am sure Magico just ignored that…… air is always moving, but this bottles are positioned ON material that is connected to speakers itself….material molecules are vibrating and everything is connected….. that’s why vibrations are transferred…… they are not vibrating because of “air”, they vibrating because you have motions of speaker membrane and that all… basic physics…… you can not isolate speaker vibrations if your cabinet is not inert itself….. you saw that water vibrates less on amp stands and preamp stands….. like I said, basic physics…. put your stands on rubber plate, vibrations will be eliminated…… as always…. basic physics. great video Jay. thank you for your time and efforts :)
I find it interesting that Pro audio speakers in studios, and live concerts have the amplifiers inside the speaker cabinet. Also most all subwoofers for home and pro use have the amps inside the cabinet. There could not be a worst case for speaker vibration affecting the electronics than this. And yet they sound good enough that no one notices that the electronics are really being vibrated! As far as a test song check out “Blue Monday” by New Order. What a classic dance floor song, yet it has space and air in it that we all like.
Yay, finally. I have said on many videos why all the toot. Most people generally don't listen to it. I have suggested Rammstien and similar to give speakers a hard time. I might have run the test at 100 dB as would be easier to see.
This test should be done with a cup of water on the speaker without isolating feet. Shine a laser pointer on the water at an angle then look at the reflection on a wall with no music, then with music. Then put the speakers on the isolation feet and repeat. You can see how much the reflected laser beam moves with each test. Then put your amps and other equipment on the floor without the stands, repeat. Then the equipment on the stands and repeat. You’re not vibrating the cement floor enough to have any vibration shaking any equipment, so with or without the stands, I suspect the amps are not vibrating. Did you test with the water sitting on the floor, does it show the floor even vibrating? Put water on a completely isolated platform (magnetic levitation) or hang from a string. Try near the speaker and away from the speaker. Does it “compress” or vibrate in free-air? Much more testing is needed.
Hi Jay - I feel your a combo of both 2nd & 3rd hypotheses are the most likely explanation for the bottles' movement on the speakers. Your stand on the pre clearly work in terms of room vibration. Am lovin' this btw!
The bottles will want to resonate at a particular frequency regardless of where you put them. Use spikes on concrete floors, footers to protect floorboards from spikes..
Jay, footers is for the speakers to not send vibration to flor. All speaker ( to very high volume) make vibrations in cabinet, less or more. Leave freedom of movement. BR
I think the closer you are to the speakers the more vibration you get. It's Impossible to stop low frequencies to disturb electronics that close. Espacially light objects decoupled from an isolation platform. I also believe most audiophile vibration control devices are tuning devices. They can "open the sound stage" by sinking some frequencies. I don't see how one can control vibration without a taylored platform for the Electronic weight and the expected disturbant frequency which is specific for every room.
Not sure Jay I had done this experiment on my B & W 901 matrix 3 speakers with some deep bass tracks and did not get any vibrations on the water cups for me.
Many years ago Mirage made a subwoofer, the BPS-210 bipolar. You could place a wine glass on top of the cabinet and you would not see any ripple in the water at any volume. The resonating frequency of the cabinet was 8 Hz. Since the 10 inch drivers were mounted on opposite sides of the cabinet they cancelled out any potential cabinet resonance.
Shouldn’t the speakers be coupled to the floor instead of decoupled? Wouldn’t that give the speakers more mass and reduce vibrations further? Then use the isolation devices to decouple all the other components in your system from the floor. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.
Water bottle vibration was from the speakers. Put your fingers on the speaker cabinet and I am sure you will feel the vibration when playing music. Water bottle on the amp's heatsink was airborne vibration because the amps were so close to the speaker drivers. The CH and the other electronics didn't have vibration because they were placed way behind the speaker's drivers. Airborne vibration hardly reached them. I believe you have a concrete floor. I believe water bottle vibrates no matter what if you are on a wood floor.
that’s not bad for the levels your playing at, don’t think there is an audio anti vibration product out there that could get rid of 100% of vibration on those speakers
I think decoupling lets the whole speaker move too much. Have you tried put the speakers on spikes instead to lead the vibrations down to the floor? Since we only want the speaker cones to move and not the whole cabinet.
What do you think is the reason for vibration? Have you tried doing this before? Comment below !
I think all your theories are true at the same time
Spl (sound pressure level) and resonances
I think partly soundwaves through the air, and partly vibrations from the speaker via the floor. I have put weights on top of my speakers and that has tightened the imaging significantly. And every upgrade with isolation pucks under the electronics has made a huge difference. Even the micro vibrations play a part in how well the gear is performing. I also have weights on top of my DAC and CD-player, in addition to the isolation pucks.
I try this at least twice a week, and the reason for the vibration is shitty equipment, you have to spend way more money. Let's find happiness together through spending more money on toys!
Hi Jay, there are vibrations everywhere! Even on the Gryphon Commander. Look at the glare on the bottle. 👍👍⚙️⚙️❤️❤️🔥🔊🔊🔊
I think you heard the difference in sound on all components 👍👍⚙️🔊❤️🔥
you have to put the bottles on the floor to see if the decoupling of the speakers to the floor works and the same with racks bottle on the floor and bottle on the rack
Yes, that will be the way to really test it.
Yeah this is test is a total failure of understanding fundamental physics.
Your final hypothesis…the tracks generated more vibrations than the cabinet structure, at the time these were made, was capable of absorbing. Today’s structural results are superior. Try this on the new Magico flagship.
Nice Video ❤
Hey Jay, good attempt. As other people have said, the speakers will move, can't avoid that. Point is that they're ideally de-coupled from the ground they're sitting on. To test this accurately need to place water on the ground with and without the de-couplers on the system.
At that sound pressure level in the room the bottles should vibrate some from airborne pressure waves. Put them on the floor and/ or a table. You could be measuring standing waves in the room. Another test might be to try them on the speaker without them being on the Footers.
Interesting point.
@@glenncurry3041 If you lift them. Lol
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt On second thought....
Before and after makes sense
Jay, I think the better way to do it is to check the sound of a decoupled speaker from the sound of a speaker directly sitting (connected) to the ground. I did this, decoupled speakers sounded really much better.
I think that the speaker is vibrating by itself because of the woofer movement.
When you place the bottles on your amplifier the air that the woofer moves hit the bottle and energy is transferred to the water but still visually we can see the water moves much less because in this case there are no moving parts inside your amplifier.
Anyway you have to take in consideration that not all frequencies are audible, meaning that even though you see the water moves doesn't necessarily mean that it affects what you are hearing.
Not sure why you're confused, you can't stop low end. Not even concrete walls can, it travels right through it to an extent. Why do you think neighbors hear only the low end at their end.
Also where your equipment is at, most speakers will not have influence from the speakers to such an extend.
They are at the null point of the speakers dispersion range. Behind it not much is happening (where your DAC is at)
The bulk amount of energy is going towards your seat.
No offense its basic physics, also every speaker resonates. Even planars do from the baffle .
It's well understood and voiced (good speakers like yours clearly are) taking that into account. That's where measurements become relevant.
I feel there is a bit of hyper focus going on. Jay.....just sit down and enjoy my brother.
Wouldn’t the water in bottle movement when placed on top of the speaker indicate how well the speaker cabinet is damped? And any other movement would just be from the way your speakers are pressurizing the room?
Bingo! The speaker cabinets aren’t inert. They are resonating and passing it on to the water bottles.
The fact no one else gets this is disturbing.
@@Carl-bd1rf I’m not sure if you got to see the short snip-it video he used as the teaser for this full video, but many called out that fact and brought up that the speakers are t inert and for the given price that it’s pretty rediculous.
@@williambracken1447
I know I was one of em calling it out.
The fact Jay doesn’t get it is disturbing. Anyone with any kind of audio knowledge understands this.
@Carl-bd1rf You're seeing a whole team of psychiatrists, aren't you? There are many reasons this test is faulty. One is that the bass varies in the room so placing bottles on the speaker and again 3 feet lower is invalid.
The fact that the water vibrates most on the speakers and in the cooling fins may suggest that pressure waves in the room are causing the vibration in lieu of the equipment itself.
Allow me to explain, if we look at the amplifier. The greatest vibration is in the bottle on the cooling fins. One distinct difference between the fins and the rest of the amplifier is that the fins are narrower. Thus, they produce the least stability. Hence, the greatest vibration from pressure fluctuations. This hypothesis potentially explains the water vibrating the most at the speakers. The speakers are located close to the side walls, where the reflections are the greatest. The amp, on the other hand, has the speakers shielding them from the direct impact of the reflections. ‘Just my 2 cents..
That is an interesting observation.
What you need is a accelerometer. You can pick up a USB accelerometer for around $400. This will allow measuring the vibrations of the cabinet without picking up the airborne vibrations. Will also give you actual measurements and not just a visual representation using vibrating water.
hi Jay
I enjoyed this test. the music wasn't as bad as you said😂. what made the water in the bottles move was the energy that the speakers transmitted to the bottle. the more energy something emits, the more reaction it has to its environment. in this case the bottles of water and the piece of paper that you held in front of the speaker. You may have disconnected the speakers from the floor, but not from the bottles of water. If you were to also disconnect the bottles from the speakers, this should also be visible. anyway, nice lab research.
Hi. I'm pretty sure it's the speaker that's vibrating. you did it on the power amp which is not very far from the speaker and it vibrated in Princip nothing at all then. so it's a pretty easy one to understand.
Great effort! Now that we know the "A" it would be beneficial to see the "B" of the A B test. This would mean putting the electronics on the floor and repeating the same playback test. Similarly with the speakers, but that is less likely as the weigh a lot. Thanks Jay!
Passive isolation footers or platforms only isolate vertical floor borne vibrations (typically effective above 15Hz at best )…and they do nothing to mitigate air borne or other vibrations acting in horizontal or oblique angles. Also, the vibration generated by the device itself (eg Speakers) cannot be isolated…it needs to be damped. Hence you see the water vibrating sympathetically with the speaker vibration.
The most effective way isolate and damp vibration coming from all angles is with active isolation. They can be effective down to 0.7hz. The most damaging vibrations are the ones at sub bass level…below 10Hz.
I use Seismion Reactio plus and Reactio 2 isolation platforms. Under equipments that benefit from isolation the difference is not subtle.
Thanks for posting this test.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
@@DynamicAudio I've tried damping on speakers and it tends to soften and dull the sound slightly. Same with adding heavy weight. Haven't found a good solution yet, but my speakers still sound fantastic anyway.
OCD needs to do this with his slate speakers.
I have slate floors. Slate and speakers seem to be a bad mix.
@@chuckmaddison2924Perhaps your sub floor isn’t properly supported.
When you put the water bottles on top of the speakers, they are moving because the speaker has vibration and they are directly on it. It may be more indicative if they move placed on the floor out of the speaker's direct line of sight (influence), where they can only be affected by the speakers vibrating the ground and not pushing the air. If the foots are good isolators, then the ground would move less and hence the bottles would move less.
What volume is your bass knob set to, and do you have a loudness setting, I can see that the speakers barely move
And do you have cardboard walls or stone
And glass would be better, i put glass with water on my car engine to test vibrations
If the speakers are producing the vibration themselves , how do you test the di cooling by putting water bottles on top ?
Also the amp does not produce any vibration ,could you explain how putting the water on the amp measure vibration?😮
I have done this test in
the past and I have a $400 dollar Monoprice 3 tier rack and I had no
water movement. My speakers had movement.
That’s interesting!
Might be fun to use the accelerometer in the iPhone. There are a bunch of apps available. But might not be sensitive enough. Have you compared the Magico MPODs to the Critical Mass Feet? They only take about 30 to 40 minutes to settle in. Yes, you will of course have to duck a bit in your chair to adjust your ear height to be fair about the comparisons. Thanks for the fun demos!
Anyone know how to stop a window from rattling with certain frequencies from my subwoofer 🔊?
Thanks
Jay, enjoyed the video. I too was into car audio in the 90’s. I would think the low frequency sound waves hitting the flimsy water bottles could move into the water making the sound wave visible. I would like to see another test using glass Vox water bottles that won’t flex as much since they are glass vs plastic. If you use plastic again use something flat like a smart water bottle. That way it would be easier to see the water showing the sound wave.
Jay you’re an expert on audio equipment big time and I’m a huge fan! but you have no clue what music can really torture and test your gear, you want to get real I will give you 5 bands 5 tracks will REALLY test everything!! You’re so far off it’s nuts.
I think speaker cabinet are suppose to resonate with the sound the actual isolation feet is to isolate vibration coming from your speakers onto the floor
You have to keep in mind that the speaker will have some flex and movement from the air movement me vibration of the movement within the speaker cones, inside the speaker itself, therefore a little more vibration that what you see on the equipment. Try a relatively inexpensive speaker and see how much more vibration you will see. The majicos are fairly rigid and inert compared to mdf speakers at a more entry level price point.
That is an interesting point.
Love your videos!
I am sorry to say, but I know exactly what is going on. Your speaker decoupled, do exactly what they are supposed to do, decouple the speakers from the floor. This means that all vibrations, stays in your speakers. This has an unfortunate effect on your speakers, meaning your speakers moves with the sound. It smears out the speakers sound.
If you want the absolute best sound and least vibration, do you have to hard couple the speakers to the floor. If you can bolt them to the concrete so it has no chance of moving at all, do you move the vibrations from your speakers and down into your floor. You have already decoupled your gear from the floor, so these vibrations should not have any negative effect on that.
Your speaker placement is maybe not optimal, since the soundwaves makes the bottles move on your amplifier.
EDIT: Decouples is often a misunderstood subject. Decouples are not leading the vibration from the unit and down to the floor, they do instead prevent the speakers vibrations from reaching the floor, thereby decouple the speakers from the floor and prevent vibration in going down to the floor and up to your gear.
EDIT2: You can try to place a couple of bottles behind your speakers and if they do not vibrate that much, can you see for yourself that no vibration from your speakers is reaching the floor.
Sound waves in the air vibrate the water. The feet are not between the water and the air but between the water and the floor.
Jay,even if the footers could eliminate the vibration of the speakers 100 percent the bottles and water are inherently movable.The mechanical energy in the room produced by the sound waves will vibrate the bottles and water .They also vibrate your eardrums, try potting some footers on those.
The water bottles are a fun way to see vibrations but they must be pretty strong to be visible. An accelerometer with an FFT analyzer would tell you the full story. It doesn't take much vibration in electronics to affect the sound- particularly the imaging and sound stage. Vibration levels not visible in water bottles.
Airborne vibrations would have to be really strong to see in the water bottles. The fact that you didn't see the water move on the preamps shows that it was not airborne causes. Concrete is a plastic. So even concrete will conduct mechanical vibration. Try the water bottles on the floor beside the speaker.
That is an interesting observation and great suggestion!
Of course the speakers will vibrate, that’s a no brainer. Place bottles on the floor to see if the floor is resonating and distorting sound on the room.
Good point, I should have tried that.
Are the speaker cabinets supposed to be free from any vibrations at loud listening levels when you touch them ?
Best music for this demo:
'Shaking All Over', The Who, Live at Leeds
'You Shook Me', Led Zeppelin 1
'Shake Baby Shake', Champion Jack Dupree
Jay please download an vibration meter on your phone, this way you can easily see ifs airborne or the cabinet, further more I would love it if you tryout Townshend platforms under the Magicos because they did wonders under my closed ATC speakers, way more than different footer’s I’ve tried
I was curious about the room vibrations as well, but that would have affected the water on the electronics as well I assume.
Good point!
The shortcomings of your system create in the end the sound signature,tubes do that all the time,tubes vibrate and create the so pleasant tube sound.
You're wearin' some advanced footers ;-)
I wonder how much vibration is transferred through the air
great video Jay, super interesting as always!! 🙌
Appreciate it!
For good bass testing play the track Produk 29 from the album Syro by Aphex Twin. Or the track L1 Dub from the album Chinese Dub by Jah Wobble.
I vibration app will give you more meaningful data. You can then know if you have made improvements rather then trying to tell how many ripples in the water.
Just thinking aloud.
If in fact the water vibration seen on top of the speakers does show the vibration of the speakers themselves, would it therefore make more sense to have the low-frequency drivers (i.e.woofers) separated from the high- and mid-frequency drivers (i.e. tweeter and mid-range drivers) ?
No wonder nowadays some audiophiles (and some brands) advocate having 2.1 or 2.2 speakers (and some flagship speakers come with bass towers).
Maybe you might have to do a comparison between different speaker footers to see if one gives you " 0 " vibrations.
How is 90db pushing the hell out of your speakers?😂😂
Probably meant as far as his hearing can stand it.
@@jazzkatt7083
He wouldn’t like it at my place. I hit a peak of 112db yesterday.
I don´t listen to more than 87DB sound in my room as a maximum, once the quality of sound is good enough 90-100db+ is not necesary anymore. Only on bad systems or rooms that are totally dead is 90+DB necessary. My average DB is around 73DB. When you have giant problems with your system you have an average of around 80db+.
@@Carl-bd1rf anything but quality
@@realhi-fihelplarry8047
Your funny, quality sound can’t be heard at 90-100db😂
Weak and distortion filled sound is what you have if it doesn’t sound and feel good at higher volumes.
Many systems can sound good at 75db. Try reproducing a full blown symphony from the front row at 75db, doesn’t work. If your system can’t play clean and distortion free at high volumes then it isn’t hifi.
in a small room like yours, the standing waves alone should affect the water in a controlled space like a plastic bottle.
Hey Jay,
So is the movement of the water from changes in air born pressure changes in the room or panel resonances from the speaker? We do accelerometer testing on speaker panels to see how much resonances there is. We also have a product that is designed to reduce panel resonances if that is a problem. So I have some experience in that department.
From what I am seeing in the video it looks like we have a minimum about of water movement when placed on the amp and DAC, but quite a bit more when placed on the speaker. That tells me something. Before I get into that though.... About those footers under everything.
The footers technically do NOT decouple anything. When weight is focused to a single set of points in minimizes the weight over a broad area and focuses the weight to small points where it is heavier at those points than if it were set flat against the floor. That couples the weight to the floor and makes it harder to move. So it is coupled and not de-coupled. What the devices you have are doing is adding a damper. Different types of material can be used to have different resonance frequencies that when stacked together prevent resonances from passing through them.
Now here is the important part to consider. If the floor is lossy (meaning the floor will move as it is an upstairs or suspended floor) then it is useful to use dampers. This means that under the positive and negative pressure that the system is creating in the room, the floor flexes and moves. This movement can effect things that sit on the floor. So devises that allow damping between them will help.
Also, expensive dampers are not required. A concrete block from Lowe's or home depot (less than $2.00) plus a slab of MDF and some spikes on the ends works super well for not much money at all. This dissimilar stack of material with the weight focused to the ends it really hard to pass a resonance through to any gear on top of it.
Now! If the floor is a solid concrete floor then that floor is not going to move. It is a solid rock and then it is best to spike speakers straight to it. No additional dampers will alter anything in that application.
Now back to what I was seeing in the video. It looks like the vibrations that you are seeing on the speakers is the result of a resonance of the top of the speaker caused by the pressure changes inside the speaker, flexing and exciting the top panel. A simple way to test if that is it or not is to place the water bottle on the edges of the top panel versus the middle of the top panel. If it vibrates more in the middle of the panel, then it is from the panel.
Cool👍
Next time a glass of wine on top. That would be interesting 😮
It could be that we would need to examine sound wave patterns around the speakers
Jay, If only you had swapped those bottles of h2o...with ladies from Hooters !!!
The speaker cabinets are not perfectly damped and do reflect some transfer of driver energy. Not surprising and probably not an issue.
Try to put Entreq Vibbeaters on top of the speakers...
Are there companies who are producing these products claiming there will be zero vibrations if you use them?Using the speakers as an example, they are the ones producing all the vibrations.To see how effective the footers are,do a test without footers on the speakers and then one with the footers.How much of a difference is there:50 %,60 %....Even with the footers,the speakers still showed vibration vibration. ❤vibration.
In my listening room there are only the speakers, the equipment is in another room. That way you have the least amount of vibration in your audio equipment. Control is via an Ipad and Roon.
An accelerometer on the gear might have been a tad more scientific.
Lift one bottle an inch above the speaker while playing and see if it vibrates. If it does its the air born vibration, if not its your speaker cabinet. Put your speaker on your carpet and see it the water vibrates, if it does its speaker cabinets. Speaker cabinets vibrating is my guess. If it was airborn the other equipment would produce the same results?
That is an interesting idea.
@@jaysaudiolab Footers can t isolate the bass from the cabinets.. Don t leave us hanging Jay... whats your thoughts...another video ?
Do your do diligence before buying
Magico is subpar! So heavy and yet vibrate
Any speaker cabinet will vibrate from a certain pressure level, impossible to absorb all the movement from the drivers.
it's NOT about "vibration".. it's about isolating cabinet RESONANCES and preventing the cabinet from getting muddied from having those resonances drained away or block from transmission. There is quite a difference between resonance and vibration, they are not interchangeable. EVERYTHING vibrates at different frequencies, what you want to do is prevent the resonances of those vibrations from both interfering with the speaker cabinet and reflected back to the speaker from it's stands. Consider the speaker feet as "valves" that either isolate or dampen the outward travel of speaker cabinet resonances and the inward or reflected vibrations or resonance back TO the speaker. The water bottle test is not really a useful test unless you are trying to see how much "vibration" can get back into a turntable. Sound itself is airborne pressure waves and if you get rid of all those "nasty" vibrations... you will have no sound at all. It's the resonance and the effect of those resonance on the speaker cabinet that will effect the quality of the sound the speaker transmits to your ears. That's what the footers, ALL footers, are designed, to more or lesser degrees, depending on the design criteria of the designer of those feet. Damping or isolation are the two that are mostly used.
Interesting observation, and I see your point!
It is explained by Newton's 3rd law: To every action, there is always opposed an equal reaction.
Use clear GLAS JARS next time. plastic would absorb most of the vibration!
Warning: If the USA puts a Tariff on Canada we'll have to stop buying USA products as much as possible. And likely some from other Countries would support us this way too. Let's hope it doesn't come to this, we're so much better off as friends and Allies. You would be shocked at how much Canada buys from the USA. We are the ones who are actually in a Trade deficit with the USA, the ones who should actually be charging a tax to do so much business here. As you can tell, we are quite offended. We have been such a strong supporter of the USA for so long.
Put your footers on top of your speakers and the water on them, see if theres any vibrational movement. If the water vibrates you have $8000 paper weights...
The fact that you could see the water move on top of the amps means those amp stands are useless in isolating your amplifiers. For a hundred bucks a piece I can build amp stands using compression springs that will completely isolate the amps from the floor. I have videos on WBF showing how it’s done.
Interesting point, I'll have to check out your videos.
@ See if this link works. I think this is where I got into the conversation and posted some videos.
Eliminating all vibration is not possible. The sound vibration is in the air. It you hung the bottle by a string it would vibrate. This cannot be eliminated. To me the equipment vibration is minimal. In addition I don’t think that track has a lot of low frequency parts to manage. Play Thanks to You by Boz Scaggs. That will bring some low end to the room.
Future Snake Oil: 'Schumann Resonance Isolation Pads', to shield HiFi gear from Earth's natural resonance of 7.83 Hz.
Just disappointed there's no seismograph. Water bottles are a crude tool.
Without a control using the water on the speaker and on the amplifier that's on the ground it's useless it just tells you the vibration they're currently you do not know the performance of what you're using to isolate.
Also you're always going to have less vibrations on the amplifier versus the speaker as the vibration source is the speaker!!
That’s a good point!
I put Isoacoustics stands under my stand mount speakers. It definitely made a difference. My room is not dedicated to listening and I can only put my speakers on the corners of a dresser. So removing some of the vibration from resonating down into the dresser was a pretty big improvement. I can’t speak to if whether they would make a big difference in a dedicated room on actual stands though.
Love you channel, keep doing your great work.
Fun video Jay. It would be interesting to remove the footers of one of the speakers and compare the vibration between the two. Would let you know if the footers are helping or not.
Hi Jay, it's useless you make me have a lot of fun, and it's nice to be able to play with these expensive things in this way too. Don't listen to those who will criticize you but keep going like this, you make me have fun.
Great great great 👍🏻
Glad you like them!
Thanks Jay.. you the audio guy..the master,, mega videos and never bla bla, super nice info
Ding Dong the witch is dead , the witch is dead , ding dong the wicked Itch is dead . Hey that’s was actually sung at a Funeral 😂.
Man all hell broke out after that .
One of your viewers made a great point about bass energy transmitted to the room causing components to resonate. Your room is well treated, and all components are decoupled from the floor and surrounding walls. Unless you have an anechoic chamber, it may be impossible to totally suppress unwanted resonances. I've spent time in an anechoic chamber, and with no room reflections, everything sounds muted, quiet and weird.
So, the speaker cabinet will shake unless you have a perfectly opposing force driver system with mirrored force vectors across the cabinet. Subwoofers designed this way indeed vibrate very little for the output. Even if the cabinet itself is not vibrating, air vibrations from the sound can still affect the surrounding area. What you want is to place your audio equipment at the vibrational troughs in your room where the sound phase cancels at the most impactful frequencies (120hz and below). Higher frequency sound will inevitably reach your equipment, that's where heavy, highly damped construction comes into play. I'm a fan of completely sealed structures because of this as sound can enter through vents in the chassis. I designed my Gainclone this way to excellent results.
basic physics …. speaker enclosure is NOT inert.. I am sure Magico just ignored that…… air is always moving, but this bottles are positioned ON material that is connected to speakers itself….material molecules are vibrating and everything is connected….. that’s why vibrations are transferred……
they are not vibrating because of “air”, they vibrating because you have motions of speaker membrane and that all… basic physics……
you can not isolate speaker vibrations if your cabinet is not inert itself….. you saw that water vibrates less on amp stands and preamp stands….. like I said, basic physics…. put your stands on rubber plate, vibrations will be eliminated…… as always…. basic physics.
great video Jay.
thank you for your time and efforts :)
Hi. I use to use an ap in my phone to meassure vibrations. Then I can se the different levels of vibrations on different places.
I find it interesting that Pro audio speakers in studios, and live concerts have the amplifiers inside the speaker cabinet. Also most all subwoofers for home and pro use have the amps inside the cabinet.
There could not be a worst case for speaker vibration affecting the electronics than this. And yet they sound good enough that no one notices that the electronics are really being vibrated! As far as a test song check out “Blue Monday” by New Order. What a classic dance floor song, yet it has space and air in it that we all like.
It will get a copyright strike I am afraid
@@davidp3096 Darn! I did not think of that. At least Jay can listen to it on his system off-line.
It's why I use passive subs. Another is that the plate amps in powered subs are garbage and they don't last long without breaking down.
Interesting thought, thanks for sharing!
Yay, finally. I have said on many videos why all the toot. Most people generally don't listen to it.
I have suggested Rammstien and similar to give speakers a hard time. I might have run the test at 100 dB as would be easier to see.
Great suggestion!
This test should be done with a cup of water on the speaker without isolating feet. Shine a laser pointer on the water at an angle then look at the reflection on a wall with no music, then with music. Then put the speakers on the isolation feet and repeat. You can see how much the reflected laser beam moves with each test.
Then put your amps and other equipment on the floor without the stands, repeat. Then the equipment on the stands and repeat. You’re not vibrating the cement floor enough to have any vibration shaking any equipment, so with or without the stands, I suspect the amps are not vibrating.
Did you test with the water sitting on the floor, does it show the floor even vibrating?
Put water on a completely isolated platform (magnetic levitation) or hang from a string. Try near the speaker and away from the speaker. Does it “compress” or vibrate in free-air?
Much more testing is needed.
Hi Jay - I feel your a combo of both 2nd & 3rd hypotheses are the most likely explanation for the bottles' movement on the speakers. Your stand on the pre clearly work in terms of room vibration. Am lovin' this btw!
Laser interferometry would be the solution in order to exclude most of the airborne pressure effects.
Jay,please try flight of the cosmic hippo by Bella fleck.. l think it will knock those water bottles off your speaker
The bottles will want to resonate at a particular frequency regardless of where you put them. Use spikes on concrete floors, footers to protect floorboards from spikes..
Jay, footers is for the speakers to not send vibration to flor. All speaker ( to very high volume) make vibrations in cabinet, less or more. Leave freedom of movement. BR
I think the closer you are to the speakers the more vibration you get.
It's Impossible to stop low frequencies to disturb electronics that close. Espacially light objects decoupled from an isolation platform.
I also believe most audiophile vibration control devices are tuning devices. They can "open the sound stage" by sinking some frequencies.
I don't see how one can control vibration without a taylored platform for the Electronic weight and the expected disturbant frequency which is specific for every room.
The vibrations from the woofer run up the baffle to the top of the speaker. Stopping it may not be possible.
Not sure Jay I had done this experiment on my B & W 901 matrix 3 speakers with some deep bass tracks and did not get any vibrations on the water cups for me.
Many years ago Mirage made a subwoofer, the BPS-210 bipolar. You could place a wine glass on top of the cabinet and you would not see any ripple in the water at any volume. The resonating frequency of the cabinet was 8 Hz. Since the 10 inch drivers were mounted on opposite sides of the cabinet they cancelled out any potential cabinet resonance.
I did see very slight movement, mainly from the reflections off the water surface reflection, on the Commander.
Damn! You are maxin’ that Classic T out Jay! 😂
Shouldn’t the speakers be coupled to the floor instead of decoupled? Wouldn’t that give the speakers more mass and reduce vibrations further? Then use the isolation devices to decouple all the other components in your system from the floor. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.
Water bottle vibration was from the speakers. Put your fingers on the speaker cabinet and I am sure you will feel the vibration when playing music. Water bottle on the amp's heatsink was airborne vibration because the amps were so close to the speaker drivers. The CH and the other electronics didn't have vibration because they were placed way behind the speaker's drivers. Airborne vibration hardly reached them. I believe you have a concrete floor. I believe water bottle vibrates no matter what if you are on a wood floor.
Awesome jay,TGIF!
that’s not bad for the levels your playing at, don’t think there is an audio anti vibration product out there that could get rid of 100% of vibration on those speakers
Damn, are all high-end speakers not better off with opposite bass drivers, if they are placed enough from the walls?
I think decoupling lets the whole speaker move too much. Have you tried put the speakers on spikes instead to lead the vibrations down to the floor?
Since we only want the speaker cones to move and not the whole cabinet.