I was laughing so hard when you said "atheist pagans are there for the party only". As a teenager I told one of my catholic teachers that I was looking into Wicca. The teacher didn't know anything about that and became worried, so to stop her from being worried I told her that I mostly liked the party every 1.5 months.😂 Wicca turned out not to be for me, but celebrating the passing of time with a ceremony every 1.5 months has stuck. Living an ethically and environmentally responsible life is definitely something that fits me.
Your still a pagan. If there were more pagans the world would be a richer one, rich in terms of nature. I am also a pagan but not sure where i fit. I keep it as pagan.
@@eddydejagere3411 If they aren't a pagan they aren't a pagan. You can be a good person good to people good to the environment and not be a pagan. Pagans don't own any of these traits.
As long as I can remember I've considered myself pagan. I've always been very nature centered and science based in my beliefs. I honor all systems in nature and life with great reverence. I celebrate the solar points of the year, when the seasons change and monthly lunar cycles as they occur. (Like most pagans do.) But, I have always had trouble connecting with the idea of gods created by the human mind with specific names and forms. I honor what I can sense to be true. I still decorate an altar and use it as a tribute to the systems that give us life. I don't consider myself Athiest because I believe these systems are alive and real and I wholeheartedly connect to an anamistic world view. But, a lot of what you said makes sense to me and describes how I feel about the world.
Pantheist animism? As Richard Dawkins said "Pantheism is just sexed up Atheism anyways" If by systems you mean earth systems maybe you'd like looking into biogeochemical cycles and the thoughts of Lynn Margulis, James Lovelock, they were co authors of Gaia Hypothesis, and Margulis is a trail blazer of thoughts on Symbiosis, she had this crazy idea that the Mitochondria cell lives in symbiosis inside the outer cell. Turns out she was right. She was a young prodigy, graduating University of Chicago at 19 in 1957 (younger than her first husband, Carl Sagan did), and than a Master's in genetics and zoology in 1960 at 22. What type of person gets a masters in GENETICS of all things, not only at 22, but in 1960? I'm digressing. You may be describing a sort of animistic pantheism.
I am so grateful for this video! I have a few friends who mention being Pagans yet don't believe in any Gods or magic, though still celebrate Norse leaning celebrations. For the longest I side-eyed this as something somewhat disrespectful to the older deity centric version of their Paganism. I also felt they were claiming themselves as such as an act of defiance against Christianity and "for the party" like you said/ a trend. Now that I watched this I understand their perspective and how it is not a bastardization of another faith. Thanks so much for this!
This was a really good video. I have one major quibble and that is with using the terms religious and irreligious. A number of traditions have an atheistic subculture somewhere within them. Even Christianity has Christian Atheists. I would, however, consider them religious, personally. A way to describe it for me rather than 'both religious and irreligious' which seems to violate a true dichotomy, would be to say that they are religious but not theistic. Atheist pagans are engaging in a spiritual tradition and a view of the world that would pretty easily be termed as religious, especially when it involves ritual, but without the theistic aspect that is typically associated with religion, but exceptions to that association are noticed in several traditions still considered religious. All in all, I really liked this breakdown, and thanks for another awesome video Arith.
Thank you for your view, Arith. I was raised by catholic believers, then went on a journey: Via Wicca and esoteric neo-pagan believes I ended up with what I thought to be "agnosticism" (a useless word), just to figure out I am an atheist. Just in the sense of "without (a-) belief in a deity (-theism)". Based on all of my own research and studies, I must conclude that all deities I know of are just mere metaphors or representations of concepts. And actual "gods" are as improbable as they can get. I guess the key is antropomorphisation. Let's travel back in time, to homo sapiens living in tribal communities. There is no system of writing, so how to teach future generations about concepts like good/evil, honour/deceit, etc? Well, elders tell stories at the campfire, don't they? So in order to preserve somewhat "universal" concepts, we create stories of figures embodying these traits. Fast forward to the Sumerians: Cuneiform is developed, yet most people still are illiterate - how to teach future generations about good/evil, life/death and so on? Right, by stories like that of Gilgamesh. Did Gilgamesh exist? Probably not. Does Gilgamesh incorporate conceptual information? Damn right he does. Fast forward to Egyptian myths, or early Judaic myths, or maybe early Christian myths: What do the stories of Ra, Mitras, Jesus and all have in common? There are, yet again, personifications (!) of concepts like compassion, justice, and so on. There we go: Antropomorhised information. Put into human form so one can tell a story of that "person" to the younger. Which, in return, will tell the stories to their young. And so on. I guess this is the beauty of being both curious as well as rational: If one combines true curiosity with a critical, analytical and academic mind, lots of wonder do unfold. And I agree: One can be an atheist and still obtain knowledge from mythical stories. In my opinion, a problem arises only once these mythical stories are taken as "facts" just because. Dogma, indoctrination and religious blindness are poison to the mind.
Im waiting for the time to come when I can purchase your books Arith! I will preorder all of them. Very few in the field share such a non biased view while explaining everything so well at the same time.
Thanks for putting this content out there. Your explanation echos my thoughts when explaining my path to others. I do believe as well that there are many others out there that feel the same. This atheist is certainly excited to celebrate Yule!
Agnostic Animist, here 👋🏻 Who would’ve guessed Mr. Thorstein was an existentialist, “I’m here because I’m not there.” LOL Best intro, yet…”Son of a witch.” 😉
I lOVE the beginning!!! I missed your old friend!! 😂😂…like always I love the information you bring and I know some of it. It’s nice to know that what I have picked up through the years wasn’t all wrong. 🥰🥰🥰🥰 Many blessings!!
How beautiful. To incorporate this view would be beneficial to all of us. Life is ultimately a mystery, and to honor it just as it is in its physical form is the least of all we should do. Takk Bror
I learned things from this video! Having just returned from a week long all inclusive Pagan, Wiccan, Spiritualist, etc, camp out; I was made aware of an individual who purported himself as a scientist by trade and a Pagan Atheist by spiritual path. I wondered to myself, "How odd". I get it now. Thank you Arith!
Thank you for this, Arith. You have helped to clear up some personal confusion that I've been living with for a long time. Looks like I'm here for the party! 🤘
Christopher Hitchens used to like telling the joke of 'a friend of his' taking a trip in Northern Ireland, getting pulled over by a band of gents, and further getting asked if he was Catholic or Protestant. "Jewish atheist, actually," the friend is purported to have replied. The interrogators paused. "...Catholic atheist or Protestant atheist?" The interrogators eventually asked. Hitchens usually went on to identify as a Protestant atheist, after explaining the concept a bit more thoroughly once the joke had landed.
(I write with the help of a dictionary and translator, so please excuse if my English looks weird.) As a Korean, it is difficult for me to agree with the explanation of this video. In my country, there are still religious beliefs, customs, and practices that have continued from ancient shamanism and animism, although influenced by Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism. French and American missionaries who came to Korea in the early 20th century thought there was no religion in this country. This is because Confucianism is a philosophy, not a religion, Buddhism has weakened in Korea, and Muism (Korean traditional shamanism + animism) is considered to be disqualified from religion. But decades later, they also concluded, "There is a religion different from the Christian concept in Korea." Just as the objects of faiths (Christianity, Islam, Taoism, Shinto, Hinduism, etc) can be called gods, it is not strange for me to call the spirits of Korea's big rocks, mountains, rivers, or ghosts of old great heroes - 'the gods of Muism'. (Just because I am a Catholic, I don't worship them.) Those you described as "atheist pagans" will not be called "atheists" in Korea, Because they are just religious people who believe in 'small gods'.
Don’t think I’ve commented here before….but….i wanted to say thankyou for being such a wonderful teacher and bringing me the information i need to understand my ancestors and past lives. Not an atheist but a Buddhist. You have a brilliant brain there ;)
@@ArithHärger it is an amazing thought that without the internet we would have a fraction of the cultural understanding that we do. Your part in that is so important. Peace ☮️ from Scotland 🏴
Thanks for this video. As an atheistic pagan (or more specifically a former atheist who is now an agnostic soft-animist pagan) you are mostly exactly right on the appeal and motivation behind atheistic paganism, but I'll point out that some including myself do practice magic but maybe have a different view on what it is. Speaking for myself I don't "believe" in magic but parts of my brain, especially those that deal with emotions, fears and desires, very much do believe in magic and can be made to change with ritual magic. It's a way of tricking my subconscious into aligning with my conscious beliefs. For example, I used magic to stop smoking and take fitness more seriously and it worked to tremendous effect for me. Magic isn't "real" for me but it may as well be due to the power it has on my subjective experiences and feelings.
I'd be interested in what you think about rune casting and "atheism." Also, I have a fondness for Buddhism (I almost ordained as monk), and in this video you mentioned the 4 elements: earth, air, water, and fire. They do play a part in some of the Buddhist suttas, particularly MN 62, the Maharahulavada Sutta. You might find it interesting. Anyway, I consider myself a secular pagan and Buddhist (well, I do believe that the Dhamma of the 4 noble truths and many of the Buddha's teachings are spot on). I "worship" this blue marble we are on and all life, but have seen no evidence of any gods or supernormal deities, or any kind magic that can't be somehow explained by empirical science; and believe me, I've been looking. 😀 I would love to believe, but... Lol, I could ramble on... Arith, I dig your vids and always learn something new! Your explanations of the runes are some of the best I've found, and I've transcribed many of your views on the runes into my own rune book. Please, keep up the good work! Peace!
you have explained this SO well - - i have a friend that is very earth and animal centred , a person of great heart and is very firm about being an atheist. i have to say that i could not have understood animism and atheism together
Thank you Arith, again for a very informative video. I will have to look at it again. I don't know whether I am a pagan , atheist or a heathen, or an animist. At least I am not Christian. So I will definitely look at your video again .
as paganism builds relationships focusing on the here and now.... it would seem then that Christianity, focusing on the hereafter and who knows where would foster more alienation between people and alienation from this world here and now
Yes,, I can see that,,respect that. In my experience,with a deep enough perception/experience,, atheism becomes something else/more...a palpable and conscious" Personality" very present everywhere. 🎁
Then call them something else. By definition, a pagan follows a non abrahamic religion. Key word, religion. Religion: a system of faith and worship. Buddhism is not a faith. Zoroastrianism is by definition a pagan religion, monotheistic. I don't care if someone is an atheist (a- not, theist- a person that believes in a god or gods) but to classify someone with a religious tag then add an anti religious tag after it is linguistically absurd. If they are animists, then that is a much more fitting description. If a person chooses not to believe in deity, what ever, but you shouldn't call an elephant a sparrow because you want it to seem smaller. Academic. I know, but there it is, my opinion.
Disagree. A religion is the combination of a cosmology, a set of values and a set of practices. No gods required. If you're doing rituals and revering something (in our case, the Earth itself), you're practicing a religion. And if you ARE revering the Earth, you're a Pagan.
Your the most intelligent and generous contributor to ancient european heritage without which we are all wether european or mixed european in the absolute darkness of a rich heritage of sense, reason, truth and valuable culture and spirituality. Blessings to you. 👍😇
I started practicing paganism 45 years ago and after studying all religions for 55 years I realized there is no god or gods but I still respect the earth even though I am Atheist. So I guess I am a Atheist Pagan.
I'm Metaphysical Atheist and Mixed and Bisexual, How more controversially bizarre can we humans get? oh and I come from a lot o witches. NO ONE TROLL ME, Just sing "Peace to you" if your Religious or Non Religious, All Spiritually Inclusive, SHARE LOVE
Hi there! I’m new to Paganism and I was wondering- What’s the difference between Secular Paganism and Atheist Paganism? I googled it but couldn’t find many straight answers 😅
If I remember correctly, from my History lessons, when I was in University, "Paganus" (Pagan), to the Romans, was a term associated to people who lived among nature, outside the Urbe (City). This could be applied also to small villages. The rural world itself. Although, dictionaires themselves associate Pagan to a person who worships pre-Christian deities.
I confess that I have tried a lot of paganism, magic, occultism, atheism, Christianity and so on, as Arith knows. However, I can say within my existence, my world and madness: *EVERYTHING DEPENDS ON OUR THOUGHTS THAT VIBRATING CREATE OUR REALITY EXPANDING AND BREAKING OUR LIMITING BELIEFS*
I have always considered atheism to be diametrically opposed to paganism--or any form of spirituality that involves deity. To be blunt, my first impression of "Atheist Pagans" is that they attention seekers who don't believe in anything but like the image and/or aesthetics associated with Paganism. So, I'm going to listen to your argument and we'll see if you change my mind. 😀 Wicca acknowledges many deities, and the God and the Goddess are separate, though complementary beings. Not everyone in Wicca considers other deities to be aspects of the big two. Polytheism is normal within Wicca. working with deities is also normal within witchcraft. The argument you are making for Aethist Paganism is reasonable...I'm personally not persuaded by it, but I respect the thought you out into it and the eloquence with which you made it. I am disturbed by the need of Atheists to insert themselves in spiritual circles, and demand acceptance and celebration as if they're the same as those who build relationships with deities as well and other spirits. It is a different way of seeing the world. Why is it not enough for Aethists to simply not believe and get on with their lives? Why the push to mingle with Paganism and force those who disagree into submission--which happens in some social media. Not in your video, of course--your presentation is respectful to all involved. But in other platforms the "aestheist pagans" come in and shout down everyone else unless the dominate the forum. The behavior reminds me more of militant Abrahamic religions than anything pagan. I'd be curious to hear you expound more on the topic, and I'll be sharing this video on my discord server in hopes of sparking conversation.
Just a quick note, not all atheists are the same. The ONLY thing all atheists have in common is the lack of belief in deity specifically. You can still believe in spirits and be spiritual and still be an atheist. So atheistic pagans can still worship spirits and the earth as well as venerate it. Also witchcraft doesn't have to involve deities, it is a craft. Yes you will find atheists that shout everywhere but the vocal minority does not equate to the majority. And you'll find that in any community honestly. It's probably that some are just annoyed that they aren't being included in worship spaces that align with what they believe and are upset. You might believe that they disagree with you when they might in fact agree with you in the first place~ I myself am an atheist that practices witchcraft and have a pagan worldview so I would know lol
Atheists have spirituality, too. We aren't "inserting ourselves in spiritual circles": we're already there, and we belong there. We don't care what other people in Paganism do, we just want to be left alone to do what WE do. Trying to gatekeep the Pagan community against atheist Pagans is a very, very Christian-like behavior.
An atheist cannot choose to try to create relationships with other humans, and come together on the solstice to welcome the return of the sun? They have to believe that the sun is actually a god/goddess in order to create those human relationships and express the reverence they have for the annual power of the season and returning of light from darkness? Just because they believe the sun is simply the sun and not a being/entity disqualifies them from being allowed to celebrate the solstice in the presence of other humans who are also celebrating? That's...
@Brigantia Blackbird: Like i say it he right and the left bringing in the spiritual people under fire, both sides need to infiltrate and dominate the narrative and bring acceptance or this secret knowledge only for certain people. All this is is the modern political and special interests cults trying to rewrite everything for their own interests. Its pathedic!
Loved this talk Arith Härger should be chosen to speak on TED/TEDx Talks, really engaging and informative views with more than just one perspective X 😁😊🙌🏻🔥❤️✨⚡️✨
Is it possible to be agnostic and pagan/norse ? I'm presently detached from Christianity and in the agnostic way of thinking and have learned of my pagan heritage from Ger mania .
If this is possible than anything is possible. If merely pretending at Magick is Magick than atleast entertaining the idea the Magick might be real is far superior in my opinion. This video in my assessment is the ultimate permission for anyone to be a pagan. It’s absolutely pure self identification, so if you take him as a good source he is saying even those who don’t believe in anything spiritual can still be spiritual than by his logic you are most certainly welcome. I am devoted to sorcery and would never accept someone who was merely pretending to do rituals as a student or fellow but if you believe there might be something and your just trying to see, that is excellent and admirable no matter what religion or path. I would definitely accept a student who is seeking to see if their is something to find. Entertaining the notion there is something more makes you capable of entertaining the power of ritual and by that right experiencing the qualities and benefits of such a ritual. In my experience Magick is something more real than what you can see and being atheistic would be absolute denial of the actual reality. I started merely reciting what I was told to recite by kind teachers and only did so because they seem to know more about me than I did myself. The mystery of what I felt in their presence and the seeming psychic nature of their words was all that I had. I didn’t believe in anything I just felt there might be. So in all sincerity out of all the comments yours gave me hope. Willingness to entertain something is far superior to concretely believing in nothing at least you are actually open. Thanks for cheering me up, good luck to you wherever you might direct your energy may it be wondrous and auspicious. Sarwa Mangalam
It seems to me that many atheists and pagans have similar ethical outlooks or 'spiritual' outlooks, insofar as that applies to atheists. The difference is not about ethics, goals, etc., but rather a question of whether a person believes in the existence of certain entities (gods, spirits, 'invisible others' as Arith put it, or whatever names various systems use). Although of course many atheists have different ethical outlooks. Since it is primarily defined through the rejection of belief in gods, atheism encompasses a lot of different beliefs!
Interesting and stimulating lecture, thanks Arith, i could write a lot mroe about it but instead im going for; Mr Thorstein is back! Yay we missed you Mr Thorstein, you should butt in more often, stop letting Arith get all the limelight Glad to see you took the phrase _"When you find yourself in hell, keep going"_ literally
Thank you Arith. I have been an atheist these past 10 -15 years. It has been a slow deconvertion. I have been celebrating the wheel of the year with pagan overtones, but with no deities. This Winter solstice I will be marking the Yule festival after the passing of the longest night. Peace and Love my friend.
Is everyone forgetting that pantheism is a thing? Just because an individual or group feel that the one thing manifests itself in various ways doesn't mean that it's not pantheism.
Thank you for helping me sort this out. It's like you knew me b4 I knew myself lol. I have never met a God or observed the/a spirit, but I do seek, respect, and embrace much of the wisdom the stories of these ideas/being have left us. I have strong feelings for the treatment of Christians towards Pagans and proudly align myself with Pagans and Heathens.
my reflection about atheist pagans is that is not a dead end or a goal, is the step of transition from abrahanism style of faith in search for something they feel like with their conscious becauee we've been forced to be Christians and we lost our roots hundreds of years ago, atheist pagans are people that are incomplete to remember who their people were in the past and believe what the modern man stablished, the identity, the culture, the traditions, the blood, the spirit, the original Mankind that used to strong, a hunter gatherer, a thinker, an interpreter, an intellectual, someone who judge but respect the spirits of nature, everything is alive, and everything matters, Scientific Atheist are the ones who wants industrialism and globalism, christians are the ones who justify mistakes, history, and crimes because "its all part of God's plan" if youre an atheist pagan, please look your ancestry, your lineage, the original people. visit a Museum feel attracted to those items, of what we were used to be. the history Museums are literally our Temples nothing really disappeared. we ve been lied and brainwashed since colonization
Very insightful video! I’d consider myself an atheist pagan. I do enjoy the symbolism of the world serpent and some Gnostic teachings with Kabbalah but not the creation stories per say. I’m a big fan of the Fae and Celtic folklore since I’m ethnically Irish American.
I'm still trying to figure out where I fit in within Paganism. For years I worshiped different goddesses, but the last 3 years I began to realize that I no longer believe in any deity. I'm not sure how I feel about magick, I used to believe in it, but lately not so much. I still feel Pagan, though.
Most of the time the problem lies precisely in trying to fit in somewhere. It forces us to reduce ourselves to a specific limited spectrum instead of allowing us to flow into the diversity of the self. It is part of human nature to want to belong to some group, as it is a survival mechanism. However, it often denies several realities of our psycological selves. Sometimes we don't need to fit in, we just need to allow ourselves to be.
until now I have considdered myself sort of vaguely, sciency spiritual. I gobble up every fresh article about quantum mechanics there is in my monthly science magazine. I feel very comforted by the consepts of superposition and quantumentwinement... and now I wonder if that isn't just an other form of paganism. because it is a way of rooting myself in this world. and of trying to understand and use for my wellbeing how everything is connected (down to a subatomic level). no deities... but feeling comforted by understanding, experiancing and celebrating life and the world. in my case just in a more abstracted way.
The concept of 'world accepting' is central to the philosophy of Nietzsche. I mean, he was crazy and probably often wrong, but this part really reminds me of his writings.
I love this vid. It just popped up as I happened to be pondering my "religion" and everything. I am one of the people you describe: a staunch sceptic, nihilist and atheist who views the world/nature and life itself as something sacred, and who tries to live an environmentally and ethically responsible life :) I don't really celebrate any of the sabbaths, but I would like to start doing that once me and my fiancée have our own homestead. We're currently living with my dad to save up for one, and while he doesn't explicitly forbid us to celebrate the equinoxes and solstices, since he isn't religious in any way, shape or form, he does think celebrating stuff like that is fairly useless and only makes the house messy for no reason :P Fun fact: my mom is a witch, and I grew up as a polytheistic pagan, then became a modern satanist for a few years, went back to polytheistic paganism, and then got into epistemology, started tearing apart everything I ever believed in to see if any of it was true or not, and came to the conclusion that I had no reason whatsoever to believe that any of it was true, hence becoming a sceptic, nihilist and atheist :)
Sortof related, but slightly different. I knew an atheist scientist that still acknowledged the existence of spirits. Even to the point of agreeing that a photo I took a while back did in fact have a spirit in it... it was kinda creepy! Also, speaking of precious beings, one of your kitties makes an appearance near the end, there lol 😁😸
Huh!?! Pagans worldly??? Maybe you meant the atheist ones? You didn't say that though there. I figure it's more of a spiritual life, but grounded in this REAL world living. (Unless you are a non believer, then it becomes very mundane)
Hinduism is not so definitive because it has so many distinct cults that are village or regional religions serving a single deity or a set of deities which have individual approaches to philosophy and ideology or approaches to worship and gnosis.
I was laughing so hard when you said "atheist pagans are there for the party only". As a teenager I told one of my catholic teachers that I was looking into Wicca. The teacher didn't know anything about that and became worried, so to stop her from being worried I told her that I mostly liked the party every 1.5 months.😂 Wicca turned out not to be for me, but celebrating the passing of time with a ceremony every 1.5 months has stuck. Living an ethically and environmentally responsible life is definitely something that fits me.
Your still a pagan. If there were more pagans the world would be a richer one, rich in terms of nature.
I am also a pagan but not sure where i fit. I keep it as pagan.
@@eddydejagere3411 that's the best part, you don't have to fit in, you can just do you 🥰
Pagan 4 life and beyond!!
@@eddydejagere3411 If they aren't a pagan they aren't a pagan. You can be a good person good to people good to the environment and not be a pagan. Pagans don't own any of these traits.
As long as I can remember I've considered myself pagan. I've always been very nature centered and science based in my beliefs. I honor all systems in nature and life with great reverence. I celebrate the solar points of the year, when the seasons change and monthly lunar cycles as they occur. (Like most pagans do.)
But, I have always had trouble connecting with the idea of gods created by the human mind with specific names and forms. I honor what I can sense to be true.
I still decorate an altar and use it as a tribute to the systems that give us life.
I don't consider myself Athiest because I believe these systems are alive and real and I wholeheartedly connect to an anamistic world view.
But, a lot of what you said makes sense to me and describes how I feel about the world.
Pantheist animism? As Richard Dawkins said "Pantheism is just sexed up Atheism anyways"
If by systems you mean earth systems maybe you'd like looking into biogeochemical cycles and the thoughts of Lynn Margulis, James Lovelock, they were co authors of Gaia Hypothesis, and Margulis is a trail blazer of thoughts on Symbiosis, she had this crazy idea that the Mitochondria cell lives in symbiosis inside the outer cell. Turns out she was right. She was a young prodigy, graduating University of Chicago at 19 in 1957 (younger than her first husband, Carl Sagan did), and than a Master's in genetics and zoology in 1960 at 22. What type of person gets a masters in GENETICS of all things, not only at 22, but in 1960? I'm digressing.
You may be describing a sort of animistic pantheism.
I am so grateful for this video! I have a few friends who mention being Pagans yet don't believe in any Gods or magic, though still celebrate Norse leaning celebrations. For the longest I side-eyed this as something somewhat disrespectful to the older deity centric version of their Paganism. I also felt they were claiming themselves as such as an act of defiance against Christianity and "for the party" like you said/ a trend. Now that I watched this I understand their perspective and how it is not a bastardization of another faith. Thanks so much for this!
This was a really good video. I have one major quibble and that is with using the terms religious and irreligious. A number of traditions have an atheistic subculture somewhere within them. Even Christianity has Christian Atheists. I would, however, consider them religious, personally.
A way to describe it for me rather than 'both religious and irreligious' which seems to violate a true dichotomy, would be to say that they are religious but not theistic. Atheist pagans are engaging in a spiritual tradition and a view of the world that would pretty easily be termed as religious, especially when it involves ritual, but without the theistic aspect that is typically associated with religion, but exceptions to that association are noticed in several traditions still considered religious.
All in all, I really liked this breakdown, and thanks for another awesome video Arith.
Thank you for your view, Arith. I was raised by catholic believers, then went on a journey: Via Wicca and esoteric neo-pagan believes I ended up with what I thought to be "agnosticism" (a useless word), just to figure out I am an atheist. Just in the sense of "without (a-) belief in a deity (-theism)".
Based on all of my own research and studies, I must conclude that all deities I know of are just mere metaphors or representations of concepts. And actual "gods" are as improbable as they can get. I guess the key is antropomorphisation.
Let's travel back in time, to homo sapiens living in tribal communities. There is no system of writing, so how to teach future generations about concepts like good/evil, honour/deceit, etc? Well, elders tell stories at the campfire, don't they? So in order to preserve somewhat "universal" concepts, we create stories of figures embodying these traits. Fast forward to the Sumerians: Cuneiform is developed, yet most people still are illiterate - how to teach future generations about good/evil, life/death and so on? Right, by stories like that of Gilgamesh. Did Gilgamesh exist? Probably not. Does Gilgamesh incorporate conceptual information? Damn right he does. Fast forward to Egyptian myths, or early Judaic myths, or maybe early Christian myths: What do the stories of Ra, Mitras, Jesus and all have in common? There are, yet again, personifications (!) of concepts like compassion, justice, and so on. There we go: Antropomorhised information. Put into human form so one can tell a story of that "person" to the younger. Which, in return, will tell the stories to their young. And so on.
I guess this is the beauty of being both curious as well as rational: If one combines true curiosity with a critical, analytical and academic mind, lots of wonder do unfold. And I agree: One can be an atheist and still obtain knowledge from mythical stories. In my opinion, a problem arises only once these mythical stories are taken as "facts" just because. Dogma, indoctrination and religious blindness are poison to the mind.
Im waiting for the time to come when I can purchase your books Arith!
I will preorder all of them. Very few in the field share such a non biased view while explaining everything so well at the same time.
Thanks for putting this content out there. Your explanation echos my thoughts when explaining my path to others. I do believe as well that there are many others out there that feel the same. This atheist is certainly excited to celebrate Yule!
Agnostic Animist, here 👋🏻 Who would’ve guessed Mr. Thorstein was an existentialist, “I’m here because I’m not there.” LOL Best intro, yet…”Son of a witch.” 😉
I have a lot of agnostic perspectives as well.
"I'm here because I'm not there" made my day.
I lOVE the beginning!!! I missed your old friend!! 😂😂…like always I love the information you bring and I know some of it. It’s nice to know that what I have picked up through the years wasn’t all wrong. 🥰🥰🥰🥰 Many blessings!!
Good morning to both of you!
How beautiful. To incorporate this view would be beneficial to all of us. Life is ultimately a mystery, and to honor it just as it is in its physical form is the least of all we should do. Takk Bror
Atheist Pagans worship Nature. I admire the accomplishment, Nature has been PROVEN TO EXIST! ✨
I learned things from this video!
Having just returned from a week long all inclusive Pagan, Wiccan, Spiritualist, etc, camp out; I was made aware of an individual who purported himself as a scientist by trade and a Pagan Atheist by spiritual path.
I wondered to myself, "How odd".
I get it now. Thank you Arith!
A very in-depth explanation is important to watch the video, there is much to learn! to the end! Very good, very good! 🦋
Thank you for this, Arith. You have helped to clear up some personal confusion that I've been living with for a long time.
Looks like I'm here for the party! 🤘
THank you :) I'm happy to know this was useful in a way. Keep on partying!
no solstice/equinox party should be without an atheist pagan present
@@Eon-Nova Why? Both celebrate it.
@@silentwitness7132 This was meant to be a playful response to Pica saying we're here for the party.
@@Eon-Nova Oh I'm so sorry, I didn't see the "no" at the start of your sentence, so I read the complete opposite, my most sincerest of apologies.
Christopher Hitchens used to like telling the joke of 'a friend of his' taking a trip in Northern Ireland, getting pulled over by a band of gents, and further getting asked if he was Catholic or Protestant. "Jewish atheist, actually," the friend is purported to have replied.
The interrogators paused. "...Catholic atheist or Protestant atheist?" The interrogators eventually asked.
Hitchens usually went on to identify as a Protestant atheist, after explaining the concept a bit more thoroughly once the joke had landed.
L’exposition de religion la plus étonnante que j’ai jamais entendue, félicitations. M. Härger
Merci beaucoup! Je suis content de savoir que le contenu vous a plu, félicitations !
thank you for this Kiddo ! great to see Mr Thorstein again !!!!
(I write with the help of a dictionary and translator, so please excuse if my English looks weird.)
As a Korean, it is difficult for me to agree with the explanation of this video. In my country, there are still religious beliefs, customs, and practices that have continued from ancient shamanism and animism, although influenced by Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism.
French and American missionaries who came to Korea in the early 20th century thought there was no religion in this country. This is because Confucianism is a philosophy, not a religion, Buddhism has weakened in Korea, and Muism (Korean traditional shamanism + animism) is considered to be disqualified from religion. But decades later, they also concluded, "There is a religion different from the Christian concept in Korea."
Just as the objects of faiths (Christianity, Islam, Taoism, Shinto, Hinduism, etc) can be called gods, it is not strange for me to call the spirits of Korea's big rocks, mountains, rivers, or ghosts of old great heroes - 'the gods of Muism'. (Just because I am a Catholic, I don't worship them.) Those you described as "atheist pagans" will not be called "atheists" in Korea, Because they are just religious people who believe in 'small gods'.
Thank you Arith. This is an excellent explanation of this subject and is very thought inspiring, as always!
Don’t think I’ve commented here before….but….i wanted to say thankyou for being such a wonderful teacher and bringing me the information i need to understand my ancestors and past lives. Not an atheist but a Buddhist. You have a brilliant brain there ;)
That's such a lovely comment, thank you. Thank you for taking the time to comment and sharing those encouraging words with me. Be well!
@@ArithHärger it is an amazing thought that without the internet we would have a fraction of the cultural understanding that we do. Your part in that is so important. Peace ☮️ from Scotland 🏴
Thanks for this video. As an atheistic pagan (or more specifically a former atheist who is now an agnostic soft-animist pagan) you are mostly exactly right on the appeal and motivation behind atheistic paganism, but I'll point out that some including myself do practice magic but maybe have a different view on what it is. Speaking for myself I don't "believe" in magic but parts of my brain, especially those that deal with emotions, fears and desires, very much do believe in magic and can be made to change with ritual magic. It's a way of tricking my subconscious into aligning with my conscious beliefs. For example, I used magic to stop smoking and take fitness more seriously and it worked to tremendous effect for me. Magic isn't "real" for me but it may as well be due to the power it has on my subjective experiences and feelings.
I'd be interested in what you think about rune casting and "atheism." Also, I have a fondness for Buddhism (I almost ordained as monk), and in this video you mentioned the 4 elements: earth, air, water, and fire. They do play a part in some of the Buddhist suttas, particularly MN 62, the Maharahulavada Sutta. You might find it interesting. Anyway, I consider myself a secular pagan and Buddhist (well, I do believe that the Dhamma of the 4 noble truths and many of the Buddha's teachings are spot on). I "worship" this blue marble we are on and all life, but have seen no evidence of any gods or supernormal deities, or any kind magic that can't be somehow explained by empirical science; and believe me, I've been looking. 😀 I would love to believe, but...
Lol, I could ramble on...
Arith, I dig your vids and always learn something new! Your explanations of the runes are some of the best I've found, and I've transcribed many of your views on the runes into my own rune book. Please, keep up the good work! Peace!
you have explained this SO well - - i have a friend that is very earth and animal centred , a person of great heart and is very firm about being an atheist. i have to say that i could not have understood animism and atheism together
I always had spiritual beliefs but I never had a name for it until I heard what Animism and pantheism is.
🤠👍🏼
Très bonne explication, merci mr Arith. Sympa le retour de mr Thorten je l'apprécie il m'amuse beaucoup. 😁
I love that you touched on this topic as there isn’t a lot of examples of this concept being explained so clearly on TH-cam right now
Omg this intro!
Cracked me up. Like laugh out loud, by myself, in public, lookin crazy, type cracked me up.
Love it!
Thank you Arith, again for a very informative video. I will have to look at it again. I don't know whether I am a pagan , atheist or a heathen, or an animist. At least I am not Christian. So I will definitely look at your video again .
as paganism builds relationships focusing on the here and now.... it would seem then that Christianity, focusing on the hereafter and who knows where would foster more alienation between people and alienation from this world here and now
Yes,, I can see that,,respect that. In my experience,with a deep enough perception/experience,, atheism becomes something else/more...a palpable and conscious" Personality" very present everywhere. 🎁
Then call them something else. By definition, a pagan follows a non abrahamic religion. Key word, religion. Religion: a system of faith and worship. Buddhism is not a faith. Zoroastrianism is by definition a pagan religion, monotheistic. I don't care if someone is an atheist (a- not, theist- a person that believes in a god or gods) but to classify someone with a religious tag then add an anti religious tag after it is linguistically absurd. If they are animists, then that is a much more fitting description. If a person chooses not to believe in deity, what ever, but you shouldn't call an elephant a sparrow because you want it to seem smaller. Academic. I know, but there it is, my opinion.
Disagree. A religion is the combination of a cosmology, a set of values and a set of practices. No gods required. If you're doing rituals and revering something (in our case, the Earth itself), you're practicing a religion. And if you ARE revering the Earth, you're a Pagan.
💯
Amazing video! Can you put the source books in the description?
I was not expecting this opening lmfao
Brilliant. Extremely helpul. Thank you.
Your the most intelligent and generous contributor to ancient european heritage without which we are all wether european or mixed european in the absolute darkness of a rich heritage of sense, reason, truth and valuable culture and spirituality. Blessings to you. 👍😇
I started practicing paganism 45 years ago and after studying all religions for 55 years I realized there is no god or gods but I still respect the earth even though I am Atheist. So I guess I am a Atheist Pagan.
it's nice hearing someone say it
I'm Metaphysical Atheist and Mixed and Bisexual,
How more controversially bizarre can we humans get?
oh and I come from a lot o witches.
NO ONE TROLL ME, Just sing "Peace to you" if your Religious or Non Religious, All Spiritually Inclusive, SHARE LOVE
Hi there! I’m new to Paganism and I was wondering- What’s the difference between Secular Paganism and Atheist Paganism? I googled it but couldn’t find many straight answers 😅
If I remember correctly, from my History lessons, when I was in University, "Paganus" (Pagan), to the Romans, was a term associated to people who lived among nature, outside the Urbe (City). This could be applied also to small villages. The rural world itself. Although, dictionaires themselves associate Pagan to a person who worships pre-Christian deities.
Hes back!!!! 😂
Lovely Mr. Thorstain! ⭐🍷
I confess that I have tried a lot of paganism, magic, occultism, atheism, Christianity and so on, as Arith knows. However, I can say within my existence, my world and madness: *EVERYTHING DEPENDS ON OUR THOUGHTS THAT VIBRATING CREATE OUR REALITY EXPANDING AND BREAKING OUR LIMITING BELIEFS*
Please tell me more... I'm just a curious soul trying to find my very own path
Beautiful explanation of a concept that I've felt intuitively but was never quite able to put into words. Thank you!
It was very nice to watch Mr Thorsten again... 👍
I am so happy to see mr. Thorsten again!
I have always considered atheism to be diametrically opposed to paganism--or any form of spirituality that involves deity. To be blunt, my first impression of "Atheist Pagans" is that they attention seekers who don't believe in anything but like the image and/or aesthetics associated with Paganism.
So, I'm going to listen to your argument and we'll see if you change my mind. 😀
Wicca acknowledges many deities, and the God and the Goddess are separate, though complementary beings. Not everyone in Wicca considers other deities to be aspects of the big two. Polytheism is normal within Wicca.
working with deities is also normal within witchcraft.
The argument you are making for Aethist Paganism is reasonable...I'm personally not persuaded by it, but I respect the thought you out into it and the eloquence with which you made it.
I am disturbed by the need of Atheists to insert themselves in spiritual circles, and demand acceptance and celebration as if they're the same as those who build relationships with deities as well and other spirits. It is a different way of seeing the world. Why is it not enough for Aethists to simply not believe and get on with their lives? Why the push to mingle with Paganism and force those who disagree into submission--which happens in some social media. Not in your video, of course--your presentation is respectful to all involved. But in other platforms the "aestheist pagans" come in and shout down everyone else unless the dominate the forum.
The behavior reminds me more of militant Abrahamic religions than anything pagan. I'd be curious to hear you expound more on the topic, and I'll be sharing this video on my discord server in hopes of sparking conversation.
Just a quick note, not all atheists are the same. The ONLY thing all atheists have in common is the lack of belief in deity specifically. You can still believe in spirits and be spiritual and still be an atheist. So atheistic pagans can still worship spirits and the earth as well as venerate it. Also witchcraft doesn't have to involve deities, it is a craft.
Yes you will find atheists that shout everywhere but the vocal minority does not equate to the majority. And you'll find that in any community honestly. It's probably that some are just annoyed that they aren't being included in worship spaces that align with what they believe and are upset. You might believe that they disagree with you when they might in fact agree with you in the first place~
I myself am an atheist that practices witchcraft and have a pagan worldview so I would know lol
Atheists have spirituality, too. We aren't "inserting ourselves in spiritual circles": we're already there, and we belong there. We don't care what other people in Paganism do, we just want to be left alone to do what WE do. Trying to gatekeep the Pagan community against atheist Pagans is a very, very Christian-like behavior.
An atheist cannot choose to try to create relationships with other humans, and come together on the solstice to welcome the return of the sun? They have to believe that the sun is actually a god/goddess in order to create those human relationships and express the reverence they have for the annual power of the season and returning of light from darkness? Just because they believe the sun is simply the sun and not a being/entity disqualifies them from being allowed to celebrate the solstice in the presence of other humans who are also celebrating? That's...
@Brigantia Blackbird: Like i say it he right and the left bringing in the spiritual people under fire, both sides need to infiltrate and dominate the narrative and bring acceptance or this secret knowledge only for certain people. All this is is the modern political and special interests cults trying to rewrite everything for their own interests. Its pathedic!
I agree with you here
Loved this talk Arith Härger should be chosen to speak on TED/TEDx Talks, really engaging and informative views with more than just one perspective X 😁😊🙌🏻🔥❤️✨⚡️✨
@anticlimacus Yass let’s just keep Arith Härger to ourselves X 😁👍🏻
@anticlimacus yes yes he is X ❤️🥰✨✨
Muy buena explicación, disfruto mucho del contenido de tu canal. Saludos desde México. 🤘🏼
Is it possible to be agnostic and pagan/norse ? I'm presently detached from Christianity and in the agnostic way of thinking and have learned of my pagan heritage from Ger
mania .
If this is possible than anything is possible. If merely pretending at Magick is Magick than atleast entertaining the idea the Magick might be real is far superior in my opinion. This video in my assessment is the ultimate permission for anyone to be a pagan. It’s absolutely pure self identification, so if you take him as a good source he is saying even those who don’t believe in anything spiritual can still be spiritual than by his logic you are most certainly welcome.
I am devoted to sorcery and would never accept someone who was merely pretending to do rituals as a student or fellow but if you believe there might be something and your just trying to see, that is excellent and admirable no matter what religion or path. I would definitely accept a student who is seeking to see if their is something to find. Entertaining the notion there is something more makes you capable of entertaining the power of ritual and by that right experiencing the qualities and benefits of such a ritual. In my experience Magick is something more real than what you can see and being atheistic would be absolute denial of the actual reality.
I started merely reciting what I was told to recite by kind teachers and only did so because they seem to know more about me than I did myself. The mystery of what I felt in their presence and the seeming psychic nature of their words was all that I had. I didn’t believe in anything I just felt there might be. So in all sincerity out of all the comments yours gave me hope. Willingness to entertain something is far superior to concretely believing in nothing at least you are actually open. Thanks for cheering me up, good luck to you wherever you might direct your energy may it be wondrous and auspicious. Sarwa Mangalam
Grazie 👏👏
Very interesting! And nice to see Mr Thorstein! Thank you.
Good to see a historian of great renown on here.
I am a Thorsteinist so am I pagan or even heathen?
It seems to me that many atheists and pagans have similar ethical outlooks or 'spiritual' outlooks, insofar as that applies to atheists. The difference is not about ethics, goals, etc., but rather a question of whether a person believes in the existence of certain entities (gods, spirits, 'invisible others' as Arith put it, or whatever names various systems use).
Although of course many atheists have different ethical outlooks. Since it is primarily defined through the rejection of belief in gods, atheism encompasses a lot of different beliefs!
More Mr Thorstei please
100% agree.
- very good at the end of the speech in Portuguese - I felt welcomed here 🔥🌪️🌊🌎
Interesting and stimulating lecture, thanks Arith, i could write a lot mroe about it but instead im going for;
Mr Thorstein is back! Yay we missed you Mr Thorstein, you should butt in more often, stop letting Arith get all the limelight
Glad to see you took the phrase _"When you find yourself in hell, keep going"_ literally
Thank you Arith. I have been an atheist these past 10 -15 years. It has been a slow deconvertion. I have been celebrating the wheel of the year with pagan overtones, but with no deities. This Winter solstice I will be marking the Yule festival after the passing of the longest night. Peace and Love my friend.
Always nice to see a friendly face....yes, you too Thorstein of course!
Mjöd? 🍻
the circle A of anarchy...
De fato, muito esclarecedor!
Agradeço a oportunidade de aprender mais sobre a minha percepção do mundo.
It is often said that reality is only what we percieve.
Love your stuff kick on love it
Is everyone forgetting that pantheism is a thing? Just because an individual or group feel that the one thing manifests itself in various ways doesn't mean that it's not pantheism.
Thank you for helping me sort this out. It's like you knew me b4 I knew myself lol. I have never met a God or observed the/a spirit, but I do seek, respect, and embrace much of the wisdom the stories of these ideas/being have left us. I have strong feelings for the treatment of Christians towards Pagans and proudly align myself with Pagans and Heathens.
my reflection about atheist pagans is that is not a dead end or a goal, is the step of transition from abrahanism style of faith in search for something they feel like with their conscious
becauee we've been forced to be Christians and we lost our roots hundreds of years ago, atheist pagans are people that are incomplete to remember who their people were in the past and believe what the modern man stablished, the identity, the culture, the traditions, the blood, the spirit, the original Mankind that used to strong, a hunter gatherer, a thinker, an interpreter, an intellectual, someone who judge but respect the spirits of nature, everything is alive, and everything matters, Scientific Atheist are the ones who wants industrialism and globalism, christians are the ones who justify mistakes, history, and crimes because "its all part of God's plan"
if youre an atheist pagan, please look your ancestry, your lineage, the original people. visit a Museum feel attracted to those items, of what we were used to be. the history Museums are literally our Temples
nothing really disappeared. we ve been lied and brainwashed since colonization
The Abrahamic god was a family "spirit/god" that Abram brought from Ur in the beginning of that tradition.
"I'm here because I'm not there." And it just gets better from there!
im atheist pagan I like the path I do ritual but just celebrating seasons
Just checking on you. I hope you are well my friend.
I so love your alter ego!
Thanks
Very insightful video! I’d consider myself an atheist pagan. I do enjoy the symbolism of the world serpent and some Gnostic teachings with Kabbalah but not the creation stories per say. I’m a big fan of the Fae and Celtic folklore since I’m ethnically Irish American.
I'm still trying to figure out where I fit in within Paganism. For years I worshiped different goddesses, but the last 3 years I began to realize that I no longer believe in any deity. I'm not sure how I feel about magick, I used to believe in it, but lately not so much. I still feel Pagan, though.
Most of the time the problem lies precisely in trying to fit in somewhere. It forces us to reduce ourselves to a specific limited spectrum instead of allowing us to flow into the diversity of the self. It is part of human nature to want to belong to some group, as it is a survival mechanism. However, it often denies several realities of our psycological selves. Sometimes we don't need to fit in, we just need to allow ourselves to be.
@@ArithHärger Thank you, those are wise words and it really helps.
excellent - as always
Thank you very much for this video, a pagan atheist.
Great video arith!
I think I always considered myself Atheist and pagan. Not easy to explain. Ehehe
until now I have considdered myself sort of vaguely, sciency spiritual. I gobble up every fresh article about quantum mechanics there is in my monthly science magazine. I feel very comforted by the consepts of superposition and quantumentwinement... and now I wonder if that isn't just an other form of paganism. because it is a way of rooting myself in this world. and of trying to understand and use for my wellbeing how everything is connected (down to a subatomic level). no deities... but feeling comforted by understanding, experiancing and celebrating life and the world. in my case just in a more abstracted way.
Very useful info.
AAARIIIIIIITH HAAARGERRRRR
Hahhahahahaha
Well said in a non-judgemental way. The same can be said in a sense for some that are "Non-deist witches". Thankyou
Atheists that believe in life after death, soul, spirits, gods...
I miss you CCCP!!!
Wow great job on that one
The concept of 'world accepting' is central to the philosophy of Nietzsche. I mean, he was crazy and probably often wrong, but this part really reminds me of his writings.
How can people not believe magic exists? It's all around us and in us. The existence of the world is an act of magic.
I think the words you are looking for are chemistry and emergent properties.
I love this vid. It just popped up as I happened to be pondering my "religion" and everything. I am one of the people you describe: a staunch sceptic, nihilist and atheist who views the world/nature and life itself as something sacred, and who tries to live an environmentally and ethically responsible life :) I don't really celebrate any of the sabbaths, but I would like to start doing that once me and my fiancée have our own homestead. We're currently living with my dad to save up for one, and while he doesn't explicitly forbid us to celebrate the equinoxes and solstices, since he isn't religious in any way, shape or form, he does think celebrating stuff like that is fairly useless and only makes the house messy for no reason :P
Fun fact: my mom is a witch, and I grew up as a polytheistic pagan, then became a modern satanist for a few years, went back to polytheistic paganism, and then got into epistemology, started tearing apart everything I ever believed in to see if any of it was true or not, and came to the conclusion that I had no reason whatsoever to believe that any of it was true, hence becoming a sceptic, nihilist and atheist :)
O vídeo foi muito bom e altamente esclarecedor. Eu acabei de descobrir que sou uma ateía- pagã. Eu agradeço muito a explanação.
Omg that intro though! Lol
Sortof related, but slightly different. I knew an atheist scientist that still acknowledged the existence of spirits. Even to the point of agreeing that a photo I took a while back did in fact have a spirit in it... it was kinda creepy!
Also, speaking of precious beings, one of your kitties makes an appearance near the end, there lol 😁😸
Oh how I’ve missed mr Thorstein!
Eu que agradeço! 😉🇧🇷
Atheopagan here
Huh!?! Pagans worldly??? Maybe you meant the atheist ones? You didn't say that though there. I figure it's more of a spiritual life, but grounded in this REAL world living. (Unless you are a non believer, then it becomes very mundane)
Groovy xxx
Hinduism is not so definitive because it has so many distinct cults that are village or regional religions serving a single deity or a set of deities which have individual approaches to philosophy and ideology or approaches to worship and gnosis.
Mr Thorstien!!!!! YES!
LOL, cute little skit, funny. Wow, wonderful video, thank you.
Wonderful video!