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hey I told my partner to do what you did, he was doubting me I told him over and over so he did and it worked!!!! he was stoked thank you for sharing john.
Good job brother you and Stevie lav have helped me in my trades (plumber/gasfitter) and helped give ideas and proper ways of diagnosing problems keep it up John you always will get my views!
Careful when exceeding the compressor oil charge it can really increase the compressor amps. I normally drain the compressor and refill it with the right oil .
407C is good stuff when applied correctly. I've never had a problem with a retrofit yet, using it pretty steady for almost 5 years. It's really fantastic in the 407C systems with wet charge condensers using pure POE. The pressures stabilize and equalize faster than 22 or 410, and has the cooling performance of good ol R12. Gets cold quick! Unfortunately it doesn't perform so well in heat pumps in heat mode.
i am retired and most likely when a company or a tech tells you you need a new unit is usually because they cant troubleshout or they are to lazy to do it , its easier to go all new of course ,,,and also i had a tech here next door fixing my neighbor's unit and him and i were talking about this changing over to 407 c and nu22 ,,,anyhow fast forward he told me that he worked with 407c for many years in new england states in refrigeration there and told me cause i was considering for me to do that same and go with 407c , he said DO NOT DO THIS ,,,he was tellimg me its all fine when its all freshly done but wait he says untill some tim after techs have put their gauges on and off the system then you he says you will experience what a pain this refrigerant is ,, he is not a young kid either he has been around and he does not advise it ? so i did not do it my OWN unit here still has r22 in it and is fine cause i dont work anymore so i just take care of my stuff ,,, so i guess its back to NU 22 OR ? i still dont know what i will do , most techs my friends that are still working tell me 410 A is fine nothing wrong with it ? again i only did one job with it so it was fine , so i guess its what ever works at the time LOL ,,,,what he was trying to tell me is one day you get a call and the system is not doing anything ? 407 that is ,,,,it only takes 10 psig drop to drive a tech crazy according to him cause its a blend and you dont know what leaked out other words what part of the blend , so on etc etc ,,,,and you have to empty it start all over again ,,,now this is according to his years experience with 407 so i am just passing this on to you younger fellows ,,,,have a safe day ,,,,
Copland has a pdf for converting r22 to 407c, it does say you can do 15-20% poe on top but they do recommend and prefer removal of old oil for the conversion.
john I did this conversion last week on my rental home and I love it. I went with 20% poe and I got 48 degrees coming from the supply vents. I'm convenced the 407C is great...
It looks like you pulled a suction line filter dryer out. Did this system have a burnout at some point? Or did the installer for some reason go with a suction line dryer instead of liquid line? Just curious.
Take care of the customer and they will call you back. If they can't afford replacing right now, patch em up for less and when they CAN afford the new system, they WILL call you. I hate when people make it sound like the "only" option is full replacement. Great customer service bud.
If it works and the compressor don't die then happy days. In a lot of refrigeration systems it would cause problems as the evaporation temperatures are lower and the oil would likely log in the evaporator.
I just put two 407 units in today for the first time I normally don't do it but in this case someone else sold the job. We hook them up to Old coils. The one giving me a problem is a York flat coil I have low suction it's acting like there is a restriction but I checked the orifice and blew through the coil. Any suggestions?
Hi, if I'm out off R22 and I only need less than a pound refrigerant and I happen to has R407 and NU22 on hands, which one is better choice to use and would be closer compatible to R22??
Since you cut the lineset, why didnt you just cut our the compressor and dump the oil? Not disrespecting you, that's just how I've done it. But most of the ones I deal with have oil plugs though.
Is unbrazing a couple of lines and unbolting the compressor too much work Really I mean you have to break out your rig to change the filter dryer anyways. I’m just saying
How does it work in Las Vegas??? It gets to 110 and above outside in summer. Some older 410a units sometimes even trip high pressure switch. R22 units have no problems
Good video, my employer has yet to make a decision on conversion , but our market is different in the northeast ! Either we upgrade systems ,or customers go with out Ac for the two or three hot months !
Good shit as always brother. I think I'm finally gonna try using the 407C. Seeing how all you guys are having success with it. I like having that other option for my customers especially my property Management companies.
beware of what seems so easy ,,,,just saying ,,,,,read about it a LOT FIRST i am retired i seen desasters with this , just saying as i ran across this ! ,,,,,peace ./ love everyone stay safe
I was told to remove all mineral oil and replace with polyester oil pressure test pull vacuum and charge with your blended freon and your right about charging the system with 80 % of charge check your superheat and sub cooling also your temp differential anyone agree with this method
I m been using mo99 l recover 22 replace filter dryer and a good vaccum replace valve cores and charge it is been working fine so far is there something else l should do deferent?
You can but usually the oil gets trapped in the evaporator and your compressor dies. You can get lucky and it will work but to be safe you should add POE.
G Loomis Redfish you end up with junk. It will not cool. With the incorrect amount of p o e oil to push the mineral oil back to the compressor it will lock up the compressor Pistons
If you dump the old compressor oil then do it in a measuring cup the use a different measuring cup to pump back in the correct oil, no math required. Clean the connection super clean, brazing with oil on the copper surface can be difficult and disappointing.
Has anyone heard of the new R22 replacement can't remember the number on it just seen it a RE MICHAELS YESTERDAY, they said its supposed to be safe if you was to drop it in on top of R22
You likely saw the advertisement for RS-44B (R-453A). The ad says "true drop in replacement" but that does NOT mean you can mix with R-22. The guidelines for RS-44B says do not mix.
My instructor said the other day that he was going to try 407c in a unit next year and I said you have to add some POE oil to it he said you should but why would you no one will
Math is off. To achieve desired ratio (% mix) you must REPLACE oil, not just ADD oil. If you simply ADD in 20%, then you have increased the total volume and your ratio will be only 16.7%. Example: Assume you have 100 oz in system. 20% is 20 oz. So you add 20 oz. Now you have 120 oz. 20/120 = 0.167 (16.7%)...which is just barely the 15% min you stated is required. On the other hand, if you REMOVE 20 oz and then REPLACE that 20 oz now you have total 100 oz again. 20/100 = 0.20 (20%). Just sayin'.
Has anyone tried 427a yet, im doing a conversion tomorrow and the guy at the supply house said that it gets with in 3% of r22 and all i have to do is change the filter dryer.
i have used 422b to replace 22. Didn't even have to change/add oil. what is the advantage to 407c over 422b? Im just gettin into this stuff so i really want to know. thanks.
I Also have trane water source trane heatpumps. I use Nu22 when i can't change oil out and R407c when compressor is being changed cause less capacity loss. Nu22 is nice cause no oil change but you lose 16% capacity loss when using it. Need to be careful.
not worth it to do? i top off with 407c for years and no probs. full charge i dont do and its dirty and leaking...better to just quote and move on. offer financing if they cant afford a new system. this has happened to me.. i retrofit and do all that work and waste resources and another prob happens and customer is upset. now they backcharge there credit card..and complain to the bbb and write other bad reviews and now im out the work i tried to help them with. bad business... just move on you coulda missed a sell trying to do all this extra work
He’s already replacing indoor coil. Why not put a new 14 SEER 410A condenser in for a little more? It would take no more time than what he’ll spend cleaning/adding POE to that old unit. 410A is half the cost, a drier and factory charge comes on the new one, power consumption will be less and the customer will have a 1 yr labor/10 yrs parts warranty, instead of nothing when his compressor locks up.
Do you not wash out these units? I dont know how most of the units in your videos work at all with all the trash all over the fins. lol anyay man been enjoyin watchin your vids!! Keep it up!
How hard would it be to disconnect the suction line use your oil pump to remove the existing oil (takes no more than 5 minutes) and you have done the job correctly. Just because you haven't (yet) had a problem doesn't mean you won't. Quit trying to justify an unapproved method of conversion.
I thought the only way to completely change the oil is to cut the compressor out and turn on its side. How do you get it out of the suction line? I'd love to know. If there was a way youd think the vacuum pump would suck it out to, but it doesnt
@@mbburry4759 pneumatic oil extractor from auto supply house just used it to take out 70 oz each on 2 separate systems works like a.charm. just drill a hole in suction line at compressor and stick small tube in and suck away.
This is actually possible to do? U did the job even though. The customer couldn’t afford a new unit? U must be a decent human being to do the job! Hvac in my area won’t work in old units and won’t install a new unit even in a mobile home…they seem to not understand that yep it’s a mobile home but it’s paid off…I have no debt and it’s what I want..I don’t want a lifetime of debt! And I’m judged for it and refused the luxury of using my central air unit…not because I have no money to pay or I’ve ever left a bill unpaid…simply because I’m a single woman living in a mobile home ….so I’m gonna teach myself how to do it and fix it myself! The mechanics screwed me out of a decent vehicle too…so I learned how to fix it myself…now I’m a better mechanic then most the guys around my area…
you cant mix poe and mineral oil poe has a detergent that keeps the system clean also you wouldnt mix 2 different weight oils or 2 different brands in your car you have to cut out the compressor and dump the oil to add new oil even if there is hardly anything in it you are going to cause a restriction of compressor failure
You are wrong today, but that is what the mfgs said and taught decades ago when POE came out. Call copeland or look up the data. 50/50 mix is OK by them.
A simple, no bullshit explanation of how it should be done...I love the find and fix the leak attitude...Too many don't...Thanks for the video.
hey I told my partner to do what you did, he was doubting me I told him over and over so he did and it worked!!!! he was stoked thank you for sharing john.
Well explained John. With the price of 22, it's what we have to do in some cases for people that can't afford new equipment.
Good job brother you and Stevie lav have helped me in my trades (plumber/gasfitter) and helped give ideas and proper ways of diagnosing problems keep it up John you always will get my views!
Great video thanks! Am I correct that you don’t remove 8-10oz of mineral oil before you add the POE? You just add it on top?
Careful when exceeding the compressor oil charge it can really increase the compressor amps. I normally drain the compressor and refill it with the right oil .
The thing to do is pull compressor and pour out the oil and replace it with new poe with weight on the compressor tag. 100% good to go.
It does work I have some that's been running 2-3 years still cooling fine.
407C is good stuff when applied correctly. I've never had a problem with a retrofit yet, using it pretty steady for almost 5 years. It's really fantastic in the 407C systems with wet charge condensers using pure POE. The pressures stabilize and equalize faster than 22 or 410, and has the cooling performance of good ol R12. Gets cold quick! Unfortunately it doesn't perform so well in heat pumps in heat mode.
i say - if it runs and cools the house for a year or two or more, it's win win. you do you John, i digit buddy! great tutorial.
i am retired and most likely when a company or a tech tells you you need a new unit is usually because they cant troubleshout or they are to lazy to do it , its easier to go all new of course ,,,and also i had a tech here next door fixing my neighbor's unit and him and i were talking about this changing over to 407 c and nu22 ,,,anyhow fast forward he told me that he worked with 407c for many years in new england states in refrigeration there and told me cause i was considering for me to do that same and go with 407c , he said DO NOT DO THIS ,,,he was tellimg me its all fine when its all freshly done but wait he says untill some tim after techs have put their gauges on and off the system then you he says you will experience what a pain this refrigerant is ,, he is not a young kid either he has been around and he does not advise it ? so i did not do it my OWN unit here still has r22 in it and is fine cause i dont work anymore so i just take care of my stuff ,,, so i guess its back to NU 22 OR ? i still dont know what i will do , most techs my friends that are still working tell me 410 A is fine nothing wrong with it ? again i only did one job with it so it was fine , so i guess its what ever works at the time LOL ,,,,what he was trying to tell me is one day you get a call and the system is not doing anything ? 407 that is ,,,,it only takes 10 psig drop to drive a tech crazy according to him cause its a blend and you dont know what leaked out other words what part of the blend , so on etc etc ,,,,and you have to empty it start all over again ,,,now this is according to his years experience with 407 so i am just passing this on to you younger fellows ,,,,have a safe day ,,,,
Nice work John. I have 2 retrofits this week. I'm Done with 22. Only for small fills. Yes I have the same pump lol.
Copland has a pdf for converting r22 to 407c, it does say you can do 15-20% poe on top but they do recommend and prefer removal of old oil for the conversion.
What is the reason for the oil that you put in bid you take out any oil or you just add 10 onze of oil to the compressor
great video. thanks for being straightforward. does this method work on all compressors?
john I did this conversion last week on my rental home and I love it. I went with 20% poe and I got 48 degrees coming from the supply vents. I'm convenced the 407C is great...
kenny hatchel 48 degrees that's awesome
It looks like you pulled a suction line filter dryer out. Did this system have a burnout at some point? Or did the installer for some reason go with a suction line dryer instead of liquid line? Just curious.
Can I use POE 68 instead?
I see people on TH-cam using 32.
I got local Johnstone telling me 68.
Please let me know! Thank you!
Take care of the customer and they will call you back. If they can't afford replacing right now, patch em up for less and when they CAN afford the new system, they WILL call you. I hate when people make it sound like the "only" option is full replacement. Great customer service bud.
If it works and the compressor don't die then happy days. In a lot of refrigeration systems it would cause problems as the evaporation temperatures are lower and the oil would likely log in the evaporator.
Will this work on roof top units? Condensor on the roof and evaporators 1-3 stories below
So you HAVE to replace the Evap coil?
I just put two 407 units in today for the first time I normally don't do it but in this case someone else sold the job. We hook them up to Old coils. The one giving me a problem is a York flat coil I have low suction it's acting like there is a restriction but I checked the orifice and blew through the coil.
Any suggestions?
Hi, if I'm out off R22 and I only need less than a pound refrigerant and I happen to has R407 and NU22 on hands, which one is better choice to use and would be closer compatible to R22??
How much is a canister of that 407c I found one on the side of the road almost full?
Are you taking the mineral oil out?
How much you charge per Lb to refill
Why would someone replace a system because of a hole in the evaporator?
Hi is polyester oil same a ester that u would buy at auto parts shop ? Thanks
Since you cut the lineset, why didnt you just cut our the compressor and dump the oil? Not disrespecting you, that's just how I've done it. But most of the ones I deal with have oil plugs though.
Is unbrazing a couple of lines and unbolting the compressor too much work
Really
I mean you have to break out your rig to change the filter dryer anyways.
I’m just saying
thank you very good
How does it work in Las Vegas??? It gets to 110 and above outside in summer. Some older 410a units sometimes even trip high pressure switch. R22 units have no problems
Alex Egorov. 410a runs higher pressure, don't surprise me.
should I change the filter dryer to the same one I had before or upgrade to a better one for POE oil?
what would be a good estimate for the amount of oil in a 2 1/2 ton condensing unit. It is a Goodman CKJ-24-1
Good video, my employer has yet to make a decision on conversion , but our market is different in the northeast ! Either we upgrade systems ,or customers go with out Ac for the two or three hot months !
Or customers go. somewhere else. Do you have a monopoly?
If you recharge with MO-99 do you need to add oil?
how much ounces of poe oil does a 18,000 btu compressor uses?
can't be explained easier than this!
Good shit as always brother. I think I'm finally gonna try using the 407C. Seeing how all you guys are having success with it. I like having that other option for my customers especially my property Management companies.
beware of what seems so easy ,,,,just saying ,,,,,read about it a LOT FIRST i am retired i seen desasters with this , just saying as i ran across this ! ,,,,,peace ./ love everyone stay safe
How many time you pump the oil how much inside 56 oz
I was told to remove all mineral oil and replace with polyester oil pressure test pull vacuum and charge with your blended freon and your right about charging the system with 80 % of charge check your superheat and sub cooling also your temp differential anyone agree with this method
Hey John what coil do you use when you use 407c?
Replacement coil?
TXV ? Piston?
How mo99 would work vs 407c
I m been using mo99 l recover 22 replace filter dryer and a good vaccum replace valve cores and charge it is been working fine so far is there something else l should do deferent?
yup when they leak from any vapor line it's called fractionization losing more of one gas than the other on blends
Do you have to put poe oil in? I've done it many times without adding oil. I just charge from empty with 407.
Boomhauer you need to add the POE to return the MO to the compressor since HFCs are not miscible with MO.
You can but usually the oil gets trapped in the evaporator and your compressor dies. You can get lucky and it will work but to be safe you should add POE.
Are you mixing min and poly oils?
Wanted to shout out and ask you if you used the new Rs 44 B it’s so much easier and is pure drop in
It’s a great refrigerant
Isreal what happens if someone decides to top off with 407c on r22. system without changing oil. can the system fail? why?
G Loomis Redfish you end up with junk. It will not cool. With the incorrect amount of p o e oil to push the mineral oil back to the compressor it will lock up the compressor Pistons
Thanks in the right video
If you dump the old compressor oil then do it in a measuring cup the use a different measuring cup to pump back in the correct oil, no math required. Clean the connection super clean, brazing with oil on the copper surface can be difficult and disappointing.
Loud volume at the end blew my ears away!
do you remove any oil from the compressor before adding oil?
jbamm82 No, not necessary.
Has anyone heard of the new R22 replacement can't remember the number on it just seen it a RE MICHAELS YESTERDAY, they said its supposed to be safe if you was to drop it in on top of R22
You likely saw the advertisement for RS-44B (R-453A). The ad says "true drop in replacement" but that does NOT mean you can mix with R-22. The guidelines for RS-44B says do not mix.
Great job John and Great work!!!
John have you tried the 407c in a heat pump yet?
kenny hatchel. Did you.
Can u just recover the R22 from the old system and just add the 407c without the oil.???
Good work John.... Roll Tide, I mean Go LSU!!
You should try 421a
Great vid and explaining what u r doing
My instructor said the other day that he was going to try 407c in a unit next year and I said you have to add some POE oil to it he said you should but why would you no one will
Kannon Casey you have to add POE oil, not mineral
Mauriciom2011 that what I meant I fixed it
Math is off.
To achieve desired ratio (% mix) you must REPLACE oil, not just ADD oil.
If you simply ADD in 20%, then you have increased the total volume and your ratio will be only 16.7%.
Example:
Assume you have 100 oz in system. 20% is 20 oz. So you add 20 oz. Now you have 120 oz.
20/120 = 0.167 (16.7%)...which is just barely the 15% min you stated is required.
On the other hand, if you REMOVE 20 oz and then REPLACE that 20 oz now you have total 100 oz again.
20/100 = 0.20 (20%).
Just sayin'.
we use nu 22 up here in new england. it's not too bad...just have to get used to the pressures
MIKEY RYAN. If you don't mind changing all your seals an o-rings for it.
Did they have the drier on the suction line
julio chavez. Yes.
Has anyone tried 427a yet, im doing a conversion tomorrow and the guy at the supply house said that it gets with in 3% of r22 and all i have to do is change the filter dryer.
I just looked up the pdf for 427a and it does say that i have to replace with poe.
Have ever tried ICOR's NU22 ? You don't have add or change oil.Just a thought.
quimshtgclg we have used it. no issues..........so far.
It is 200 here
It's 200 here as well
UR
quimshtgclg. How about on heat pumps in climate zone 1 areas.
i have used 422b to replace 22. Didn't even have to change/add oil. what is the advantage to 407c over 422b? Im just gettin into this stuff so i really want to know. thanks.
407C only has ~1% capacity increase over R-422B, so barely anything. R-422B has a hydrocarbon, so it works with Mineral Oil and POE.
Trooper88. Source.
Max R www.icorinternational.com/images/nubvsr22.pdf
Trooper88.👍
Nice vid keep it coming partner
Why 15% and why do you fill it up to 80%
Unless one has a very short line set and properly matched indoor coil, you’ll almost always have to add more refrigerant. It’s a good starting point.
Nice video . I think everybody ask questions because it's not a complete step by step video .
nothing wrong with this method it works I know because I've done it several times
Keep up the great work!!
Good job 👏🏻
Well explained John!
Oh yeah cliplite also makes a additive for all refrigerant conversions
NU22 is easier to do but hey that works to nice vid John
I'm getting NU22 a lot cheaper than $300 more like $180
Your correct I used it on a 10 ton water source HP never had a problem Yet !
Ace. Really, what kind of metering device was it.
yes it was intended for that 20 years ago ,,,,before he was doing videos ! good answer
I Also have trane water source trane heatpumps. I use Nu22 when i can't change oil out and R407c when compressor is being changed cause less capacity loss. Nu22 is nice cause no oil change but you lose 16% capacity loss when using it. Need to be careful.
R22 oil is inside the system you add more polyester oil
It does work
not worth it to do? i top off with 407c for years and no probs. full charge i dont do and its dirty and leaking...better to just quote and move on. offer financing if they cant afford a new system. this has happened to me.. i retrofit and do all that work and waste resources and another prob happens and customer is upset. now they backcharge there credit card..and complain to the bbb and write other bad reviews and now im out the work i tried to help them with. bad business... just move on you coulda missed a sell trying to do all this extra work
You are right, because next week they will need a new something else and won't be happy.
Patrick S do it right.
He’s already replacing indoor coil. Why not put a new 14 SEER 410A condenser in for a little more? It would take no more time than what he’ll spend cleaning/adding POE to that old unit. 410A is half the cost, a drier and factory charge comes on the new one, power consumption will be less and the customer will have a 1 yr labor/10 yrs parts warranty, instead of nothing when his compressor locks up.
@@USA-GreedyMenOfNoIntegrity old video bro. Dont even use 407c anymore lol
I'm surprised you didn't play the song 'stroke me, stroke me!'
Do you not wash out these units? I dont know how most of the units in your videos work at all with all the trash all over the fins. lol anyay man been enjoyin watchin your vids!! Keep it up!
nick4819. Ikr.
nick4819 early in the video he said he was going to clean it up.
How hard would it be to disconnect the suction line use your oil pump to remove the existing oil (takes no more than 5 minutes) and you have done the job correctly. Just because you haven't (yet) had a problem doesn't mean you won't.
Quit trying to justify an unapproved method of conversion.
Comfort Heroes. Honeywell says all that's required for convertions is a 15 to 20 % oil ratio, where's your source.
I thought the only way to completely change the oil is to cut the compressor out and turn on its side. How do you get it out of the suction line? I'd love to know. If there was a way youd think the vacuum pump would suck it out to, but it doesnt
@@mbburry4759 pneumatic oil extractor from auto supply house just used it to take out 70 oz each on 2 separate systems works like a.charm. just drill a hole in suction line at compressor and stick small tube in and suck away.
@@jeffscanlan3554 oh okay. Cool. Thanks
May be chance of lock roter
👍😎🤠
Buy a new system people! R-410a.
GHIT ER DUNN!!
This is actually possible to do? U did the job even though. The customer couldn’t afford a new unit? U must be a decent human being to do the job! Hvac in my area won’t work in old units and won’t install a new unit even in a mobile home…they seem to not understand that yep it’s a mobile home but it’s paid off…I have no debt and it’s what I want..I don’t want a lifetime of debt! And I’m judged for it and refused the luxury of using my central air unit…not because I have no money to pay or I’ve ever left a bill unpaid…simply because I’m a single woman living in a mobile home ….so I’m gonna teach myself how to do it and fix it myself! The mechanics screwed me out of a decent vehicle too…so I learned how to fix it myself…now I’m a better mechanic then most the guys around my area…
you cant mix poe and mineral oil poe has a detergent that keeps the system clean also you wouldnt mix 2 different weight oils or 2 different brands in your car you have to cut out the compressor and dump the oil to add new oil even if there is hardly anything in it you are going to cause a restriction of compressor failure
Janie Horne wrong
You are wrong today, but that is what the mfgs said and taught decades ago when POE came out. Call copeland or look up the data. 50/50 mix is OK by them.
Ok by them means what exactly? They just want to sell you a compressor.
Janie Horne. Source.
I agree After Time poe mixed with Mineral will start to gum up and cause a restriction.