A 26 year master RV guy myself, I thoroughly enjoyed this, and FINALLY after years of trying to understand the whole bonded/unbonded/TX switch with switched neutral/without switched neutral thing...your explanations using the NEC make it all rather clear. Thanks so much.👍 I see in comments you speak logic and don't allow commenters to veer off in false narratives to confuse issues. THAT makes me smile. I have to do it all the time in my RV business, or I could waste major time talking in loops to an often unworthy audience. 😁
Thank you for sharing this information, I need a transfer switch that swaps the neutral if I want to change the feed for my main panel between the grid or my backup generator. I had a serious question on this, and you gave it to me, appreciate that greatly....I need an electrician, beyond my skillset.
So, in regards to Figure 2-72, where you discuss a bonded generator connected to a transfer switch, you say that the neutral must be switched to avoid parallel paths of conduction. But if that's the case, why not just disconnect the neutral (as shown in the photo) from the back of inlet to the transfer switch? Then you wouldn't need to switch the neutral back and forth. I don't see when the neutral would ever need to be connected in this configuration.
Then you did not fully watch the video my friend. You have to watch it from start to finish to gather then concept of whan a generator should be bonded and when it can be floating. To alter your "system" is not something I am willing to discuss as we only being you what the NEC says and how it is to be achieved, we are not into the DIY aspect of how folks may use our videos so we can't comment on things folks may attempt to do for legal reasons of course.
@@MasterTheNEC I did watch the whole video. And I believe I understand what you are saying about what is needed when you use a portable generator that is bonded as in Figure 2-72: you need to use a transfer switch that will switch out the neutral. I just throught it was strange that there would be transfer switches available that can switch the neutral in and out. Is the purpose of that neutral switch so that have the option to use either a bonded generator (with neutral switched out) or with an unbonded generator (with neutral switched in)? Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by a transfer switch that can switch out the neutral.
There are commercial systems that switch everything, which would be considered a separately derived system. Most Residential transfer switches do not switch the neutral, so It remains a solid bus, so it's not separately derived at that point. If you used a generator with a system bonding jumper installed (case to neutral connection), then didn't switch the neutral you get circulation current. As for just "removing" a jumper on a generator to remove this issue is NOT up to us or anything we can recommend since we have no idea what generator is being used or if the manufacturer approves of any modifications. This is not a DIY channel.
Paul, I need a sanity check. I have a DuroMax 12000eh that I use only to power my house in a power outage. I had an electrician put in a transfer switch for 10 circuits. Duromax says: "Most of our generator models will be floating neutral by default". So, the manual says to put in a grounding rod outside of my shed, etc, hooked up to the generator itself on the screw that is marked; however, it says nothing about a house with transfer application in the manual. Do I need a grounding rod if running it for my house, only? Is or would it be a safety measure for static buildup? Thanks for the video, GOD Bless
OK...no disrespect intended but it depresses me that my video did not explain this and after watching it I clearly fell short on its educational content. I thought I clearly explained these things in the video...clearly I am not the educator I desire to be...So let me clarify here - Portable generators that have a floating neutral should only be used if connected to premise wiring through transfer equipment. So, if your generator is unbonded (floating) then it should only be used with an non-switched neutrals on the premise....as all bonded generators should be used for true portable needs, such as construction sites, concerts and so forth not on premise wiring.
@@MasterTheNEC another clarification needed: are you referring to generator/transfer switch connection that is direct wired to the main leads in the generator? what if my transfer switch has a 30a or 50a male plug for my generator's receptacle? Then it WOULD meet the bonded requirement of using the receptacle
Did you not watch the entire video? We are discussing Bonded vs Unbounded Generators. A dwelling with a transfer switch that doesn't actually switch the neutral is NOT a seperatly derived system. So, the use of a generator on a dwelling where the neutral is NOT switched requires the use of a generator that is Unbonded. When a generator is used as a stand alone power source, on job sites for example, they need to be bonded generators to ensure the GFCI's built onto the generator function properly.
I’m just using a interlock 240 volt 30 amp inlet box, no transfer switch, once I disconnected the neutral wire on my generator to make it floating neutral, and hook my generator up to the house via inlet box will it now be bonded through the house?
Sorry - we can not recommend or advise you to remove ANYTHING on your generator. That is something we can not comment on for legal reasons. We can only tell you what the NEC says, modifying anything without the manufacturer's consent is not within the scope of this video.
Just use your multi meter. Test for continuity between neutral and frame-ground. Bonded will indicate Continuity. If you don’t understand, then definitely hire an electrician for safety sake.
Can a floating netural portable generator be changed to a bonded netural by a certified electrician? I have a netural and want to use it with extension cords to devices in an emergency situation.
I would consult with the manufacturer of the generator before I just let any "electrician" even those that are licensed simply change the manufacturers intent of their generator for a specific application and use. That just my recommendation as the first steps.
I've read and looked at so many discussions my head is spinning. One simple question please? I have a 2500 watt *inverter* generator that is *floating neutral.* I want to run an extension cord to my gas furnace which has been modified by use of a standard 3 prong ulility appliance cord. During outage, I simpy 'unplug' from line power then plug that appliance cord into my floating generator - in other words, at no time, will any of the wires in the extension cord to my generator be connected to any part of the house wiring . *Thus, DO I HAVE TO MAKE MY GENERATOR INTO A BONDED ONE by using an RV type bonding plug?*
Champion's website states most of their generators are floating neutral which is interesting since they are portable. They state the following "The floating neutral eliminates the potential of being shocked by contacting a hot leg and the generator frame at the same time, which could occur if an electrical device such as a hand held tool suffered from an internal short circuit." Another site states "Generators with a floating neutral are actually safer than generators with a bonded neutral. If you happen to touch the frame of the generator with a bonded neutral at the same time as one of the hot legs of something plugged into your generator outlet, you will be shocked." So lots of confusing information out there on this. One one hand, it appears portable generators should be bonded if using them as portable and floating if using them for say house power via inlet. But then you have Champion and some other sites saying floating is safer when using it as portable and in fact they unbond them from factory per their website for most.
It is scary because of manufacturers who are indeed misleading the general public because they take short cuts and rather than understand their own listings they choose to mislead. Sounds like a CHINA brand to me but alas you are correct...way to much poor information out on the market.
I’ve been wondering about this question since I decided to have a transfer switch installed in my house. The first electrician told me not to worry that my Westinghouse generator came fuse bonded. Since I hadn’t seen your video I just accepted it. Then while. searching for transfer switches, someone asked will this transfer switch switch the neutral? Someone answered with the following: Essentially, all three wires leading into your house are the center of the switch or the off position. All three utility wires are the top on position and all three generator wires are the bottom on position. The neutrals from utility and generator are hooked to the neutral bar in the breaker box. So yes the neutral gets switched because the transfer switch is an on-off-on switch. You can literally have power coming in with both sources, but only one at a time will be engaged by the switch. Is this correct?
Well, you kinda go "all over the place," so it's hard to give you a reliable response. So, is this a portable generator or a fixed generator? The simple installation of an "Interlock" device is not acceptable for a portable generator setup if the generator is bonded, meaning a connection from grounded conductor to frame at the generator. Also, since most residential transfer switches, where applied, do not switch the neutral (the neutral from the generator to the transfer switch) then it's not a separately derived system so the bonding jumper in the generator should not be there...it needs to be an "unbonded" generator which is more common in whole house permanently installed generators. So, we are NOT condoning the removal of any bonding jumper on a bonded generator, and a home owner or DIYer should NEVER screw with a generator.
@@MasterTheNEC My generator is a portable generator that comes fuse bonded. Are you saying that if it comes this way it should not be used to connected to a transfer switch?
I have no idea what "fuse" bonded means. A portable generator that has a bonding jumper from the frame to the Grounded conductor is a bonded generator and it should not be connected to a dwelling without a transfer switch that switches the neutral. Using a generator with a bonded neutral and no transfer of the neutral in a transfer switch is incorrect for a portable generator.
So what is the application of a floating neutral generator. I have one and simple want to run a 5000 btu portable ac and refrigerator. Turn ac off and run hair dryer.
How is a GFCI supposed to trip if there is no path to ground and the generator is isolated by the wheels? In the event that the metal part of the generator is in contact with the ground, or with an electrode.
A 26 year master RV guy myself, I thoroughly enjoyed this, and FINALLY after years of trying to understand the whole bonded/unbonded/TX switch with switched neutral/without switched neutral thing...your explanations using the NEC make it all rather clear. Thanks so much.👍
I see in comments you speak logic and don't allow commenters to veer off in false narratives to confuse issues. THAT makes me smile. I have to do it all the time in my RV business, or I could waste major time talking in loops to an often unworthy audience. 😁
Thanks, glad the video was helpful!
Excellent presentation! Thank you!
Excellent, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Excellent sir! Clear and concise! Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for watching!
Thank you for sharing this information, I need a transfer switch that swaps the neutral if I want to change the feed for my main panel between the grid or my backup generator. I had a serious question on this, and you gave it to me, appreciate that greatly....I need an electrician, beyond my skillset.
I have an older panel, no bonding, will have to research that next
So, in regards to Figure 2-72, where you discuss a bonded generator connected to a transfer switch, you say that the neutral must be switched to avoid parallel paths of conduction. But if that's the case, why not just disconnect the neutral (as shown in the photo) from the back of inlet to the transfer switch? Then you wouldn't need to switch the neutral back and forth. I don't see when the neutral would ever need to be connected in this configuration.
Then you did not fully watch the video my friend. You have to watch it from start to finish to gather then concept of whan a generator should be bonded and when it can be floating. To alter your "system" is not something I am willing to discuss as we only being you what the NEC says and how it is to be achieved, we are not into the DIY aspect of how folks may use our videos so we can't comment on things folks may attempt to do for legal reasons of course.
@@MasterTheNEC I did watch the whole video. And I believe I understand what you are saying about what is needed when you use a portable generator that is bonded as in Figure 2-72: you need to use a transfer switch that will switch out the neutral. I just throught it was strange that there would be transfer switches available that can switch the neutral in and out. Is the purpose of that neutral switch so that have the option to use either a bonded generator (with neutral switched out) or with an unbonded generator (with neutral switched in)? Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by a transfer switch that can switch out the neutral.
There are commercial systems that switch everything, which would be considered a separately derived system. Most Residential transfer switches do not switch the neutral, so It remains a solid bus, so it's not separately derived at that point. If you used a generator with a system bonding jumper installed (case to neutral connection), then didn't switch the neutral you get circulation current. As for just "removing" a jumper on a generator to remove this issue is NOT up to us or anything we can recommend since we have no idea what generator is being used or if the manufacturer approves of any modifications. This is not a DIY channel.
Were you referencing documents other than NEC?
Nope....Why?...NEC not good enough?
Paul, I need a sanity check. I have a DuroMax 12000eh that I use only to power my house in a power outage. I had an electrician put in a transfer switch for 10 circuits. Duromax says: "Most of our generator models will be floating neutral by default". So, the manual says to put in a grounding rod outside of my shed, etc, hooked up to the generator itself on the screw that is marked; however, it says nothing about a house with transfer application in the manual. Do I need a grounding rod if running it for my house, only? Is or would it be a safety measure for static buildup? Thanks for the video, GOD Bless
OK...no disrespect intended but it depresses me that my video did not explain this and after watching it I clearly fell short on its educational content. I thought I clearly explained these things in the video...clearly I am not the educator I desire to be...So let me clarify here - Portable generators that have a floating neutral should only be used if connected to premise wiring through transfer equipment. So, if your generator is unbonded (floating) then it should only be used with an non-switched neutrals on the premise....as all bonded generators should be used for true portable needs, such as construction sites, concerts and so forth not on premise wiring.
@@MasterTheNEC
another clarification needed:
are you referring to generator/transfer switch connection that is direct wired to the main leads in the generator?
what if my transfer switch has a 30a or 50a male plug for my generator's receptacle?
Then it WOULD meet the bonded requirement of using the receptacle
Did you not watch the entire video? We are discussing Bonded vs Unbounded Generators. A dwelling with a transfer switch that doesn't actually switch the neutral is NOT a seperatly derived system. So, the use of a generator on a dwelling where the neutral is NOT switched requires the use of a generator that is Unbonded. When a generator is used as a stand alone power source, on job sites for example, they need to be bonded generators to ensure the GFCI's built onto the generator function properly.
I’m just using a interlock 240 volt 30 amp inlet box, no transfer switch, once I disconnected the neutral wire on my generator to make it floating neutral, and hook my generator up to the house via inlet box will it now be bonded through the house?
Sorry - we can not recommend or advise you to remove ANYTHING on your generator. That is something we can not comment on for legal reasons. We can only tell you what the NEC says, modifying anything without the manufacturer's consent is not within the scope of this video.
So how do you know if you have a bonded generator?
It will typically be noted on the generator or you will see the bonding jumper.
Just use your multi meter. Test for continuity between neutral and frame-ground. Bonded will indicate Continuity. If you don’t understand, then definitely hire an electrician for safety sake.
Can a floating netural portable generator be changed to a bonded netural by a certified electrician? I have a netural and want to use it with extension cords to devices in an emergency situation.
I would consult with the manufacturer of the generator before I just let any "electrician" even those that are licensed simply change the manufacturers intent of their generator for a specific application and use. That just my recommendation as the first steps.
I've read and looked at so many discussions my head is spinning. One simple question please? I have a 2500 watt *inverter* generator that is *floating neutral.* I want to run an extension cord to my gas furnace which has been modified by use of a standard 3 prong ulility appliance cord. During outage, I simpy 'unplug' from line power then plug that appliance cord into my floating generator - in other words, at no time, will any of the wires in the extension cord to my generator be connected to any part of the house wiring . *Thus, DO I HAVE TO MAKE MY GENERATOR INTO A BONDED ONE by using an RV type bonding plug?*
Well, in your specific case it would be more trouble to try and alter anything so I would just let we ride.
Champion's website states most of their generators are floating neutral which is interesting since they are portable. They state the following "The floating neutral eliminates the potential of being shocked by contacting a hot leg and the generator frame at the same time, which could occur if an electrical device such as a hand held tool suffered from an internal short circuit." Another site states "Generators with a floating neutral are actually safer than generators with a bonded neutral. If you happen to touch the frame of the generator with a bonded neutral at the same time as one of the hot legs of something plugged into your generator outlet, you will be shocked." So lots of confusing information out there on this. One one hand, it appears portable generators should be bonded if using them as portable and floating if using them for say house power via inlet. But then you have Champion and some other sites saying floating is safer when using it as portable and in fact they unbond them from factory per their website for most.
It is scary because of manufacturers who are indeed misleading the general public because they take short cuts and rather than understand their own listings they choose to mislead. Sounds like a CHINA brand to me but alas you are correct...way to much poor information out on the market.
I’ve been wondering about this question since I decided to have a transfer switch installed in my house. The first electrician told me not to worry that my Westinghouse generator came fuse bonded. Since I hadn’t seen your video I just accepted it. Then while. searching for transfer switches, someone asked will this transfer switch switch the neutral?
Someone answered with the following:
Essentially, all three wires leading into your house are the center of the switch or the off position. All three utility wires are the top on position and all three generator wires are the bottom on position. The neutrals from utility and generator are hooked to the neutral bar in the breaker box. So yes the neutral gets switched because the transfer switch is an on-off-on switch. You can literally have power coming in with both sources, but only one at a time will be engaged by the switch.
Is this correct?
Well, you kinda go "all over the place," so it's hard to give you a reliable response. So, is this a portable generator or a fixed generator? The simple installation of an "Interlock" device is not acceptable for a portable generator setup if the generator is bonded, meaning a connection from grounded conductor to frame at the generator. Also, since most residential transfer switches, where applied, do not switch the neutral (the neutral from the generator to the transfer switch) then it's not a separately derived system so the bonding jumper in the generator should not be there...it needs to be an "unbonded" generator which is more common in whole house permanently installed generators. So, we are NOT condoning the removal of any bonding jumper on a bonded generator, and a home owner or DIYer should NEVER screw with a generator.
@@MasterTheNEC My generator is a portable generator that comes fuse bonded. Are you saying that if it comes this way it should not be used to connected to a transfer switch?
I have no idea what "fuse" bonded means. A portable generator that has a bonding jumper from the frame to the Grounded conductor is a bonded generator and it should not be connected to a dwelling without a transfer switch that switches the neutral. Using a generator with a bonded neutral and no transfer of the neutral in a transfer switch is incorrect for a portable generator.
@@MasterTheNEC Ok thanks. Having a meeting with electrician tomorrow.
If the generator has a floating neutral, then, should the neutral be bonded at the main panel or at the transfer switch?
This is typically done at the transfer switch.
So what is the application of a floating neutral generator. I have one and simple want to run a 5000 btu portable ac and refrigerator. Turn ac off and run hair dryer.
You need to rewatch from 13:50 to 19:50 for what a bonded generator vs unbounded generator should be used for.
How is a GFCI supposed to trip if there is no path to ground and the generator is isolated by the wheels? In the event that the metal part of the generator is in contact with the ground, or with an electrode.
GFCI's do not use the earth to function. In fact, in the operation of the GFCI, the earth plays ZERO part in its function.