I don't think I've ever seen a story where ruthlessness is the *end* of the character arc and framed as a *positive* trait. It's a really interesting perspective that, while I'm not sure it necessarily applies in our modern society, seems to serve this story well and reframe a lot of Odysseus' actions so the reasons behind them make more sense
I’ve been debating about this myself, and the way I’m interpreting it is that the difference between a gentle person and just a weak one is that they have the capacity to do harm and they know when to be ruthless and when to hold back. I do agree with you though that it might not quite fit in a modern context. The two angles I personally feel like people could take this through is someone in a literal fight for their lives against someone actively hurting them, or the less literal lens of the story being someone re-learning to stand up for themselves and what they care about (where the person might feel like they’re being too aggressive, but they’re actually doing it right and just not used to it)
Odysseus did a LOT of shady stuff in the epic cycle and I absolutely love him for it. Jay’s adaptation already made him a more “open arms” character than his classics characterization imo. I’m very relieved and glad we won’t have an adaptation where he sits down with all the suitors and be friends and live happily ever after lol
Well theoretically, to apply it in a modern sense you might replace ruthlessness with selfishness. There's a point where it's ok, if not necessary, to serve your own interest, but at the same time going too far just breeds more problems
As an Ancient Greek student, something that I think really resonates with the 'original' Odyssey is Just a Man. The very first word of the poem is 'andra', which means 'Man' and it is one of the main points of the story him being just one man. He is also said to be 'divine', which I can really see in the lines of the show "I am no man nor mythical".
Oh, wow, I never really would have gotten that the moral is Odysseus **embracing** ruthlessness. It started with him killing the sleeping Trojans and an innocent baby. Mercy's a skill more of this world could learn to use.
I think it's a middle ground where he learns that you cant keep giving people chances to be good people, if they show you who they are dont hesitate to kill.
@@Illier1which is honestly a good lesson for a lot of people. Because people will keep toxic people in their lives and need to learn to cut them out. But sometimes they can be blinded by the trama the toxic person causes and that can lead to them cutting out the good people too. Like how Odysseyus rejected Athena after losing his men to Polyphemus.
It also ends with Odysseus killing the suitors, which causes their families to raise arms in revolt before Athena steps in and stops them. Odysseus’s ruthlessness is part of a cycle of violence that would kill him except that Athena steps in and forces an end to the violence, directing contradicting the moral of the adaptation by protecting Odysseus through mercy.
@Urkkahlia this is assuming the story continues that way, which is probably wont. The Suitors are depicted as being incredibly douchy in this telling as is so it makes sense Odysseus doesn't give them the chance to get revenge for him coming back. This is only one song thats very obviously the low point in his emotional state. He's not going to become one or the other. He becomes a man who knows when to be merciful but also knows when punishment needs to fit the crimes.
My favorite difference is that Odysseus actually stayed loyal to his wife, he was so in love with her that he hadn't even noticed other women. I think it's a very important modern update (in ancient Greece double standards were pretty common, only women were being judged and punished if they cheated), and although Odysseus accepting Circe's offer could raise a very important discussion (male SA survivors are being erased from public discourse and I think it's sad), I'm glad that we got a version where Circe respects and admires his faithfulness to Penelope. I screamed when after speculating if "There Are Other Ways" will be the Epic's version of "Say No To This", we got a song when he ACTUALLY says no to this (I love Hamilton, but he should learn from Odysseus). We stan our short, loyal king ❤ I can't wait for the full musical and I really hope for a stage version, it's too good to not become a Broadway hit 🔥
Wait I'm confused, how does him being SA'd count as cheating? That's like saying all the victims in of zues that were in relationships cheated for being taken advantaged of
@@E.V.moon101 I never said it does. In the original myth, Odysseus had a relationship with Circe out of his own will, because for men extramarital affairs were pretty common. That's cheating. In this song, when Circe suggested an intercourse, she expected Odysseus to be willing, like most men. He refused her offer, because he values his wife above everything, and Circe respected that, she didn't try to force him to anything. But if she did push him harder or he initially accepted her offer despite his unwillingness, he would've been in fact SAd, since coercion is not consent. So it wouldn't be counted as cheating, but Odysseus probably would've thought he did cheat. He would've felt guilty and dirty, he wouldn't want to accept it as SA, since he agreed to everything, he had a "choice" (life of his friends in exchange for his body and honor, seemingly a small price), he would've thought there was something else he could've done, that it could've been avoided somehow (aka one of the most common trauma responses to SA). And that could potentially raise a discussion about male SA survivors. But as I said, I'm glad that Circe respected his refusal and didn't push further, it sends a positive message that no means no.
I mean, the aspect of SA was present more in his relationship with Calypso (as he expresses clearly he doesn't want to be there and he doesn't want that relationship but she forces it and even compares it to the way male gods force women) so I don't think it has been erased so much as we haven't gotten there.
@@E.V.moon101In the OG story, or at least the translation I read, when talking about Circe, the relationship was a lot more "mutual" at least from what we're told
It took me a bit to shift my more modern thinking to understand the theme. In most stories Open Arms would have been the morality lesson and end goal, but in this story it serves as the obstacle. Polities is such a charismatic character and his song is so catchy, but it ends up poisoning the well and the moment Odysseus starts trying to act upon the lesson his friend imparted upon him everything goes wrong. I do wish Polities had some sort of justification though. My friend is a historian and she pointed out to me that a lot of Odysseus's arc involves him learning humility, so I think him having to learn to be more self serving lends really well to his being more cautious. He's got divinity, he's a king, and he's a warrior trained by a war goddess but his name means nothing if he's dead from boasting about it.
This theme is explored a little at the end of the Cyclops saga and the beginning of the Ocean saga btw. Odysseus spares the cyclops after blinding him and goes on a rant about how great he is and proudly tells him his name. As a consequence of that the cyclops tells his father that Odysseus blinded him and Poseidon tries to kill Odysseus. Odysseus wouldn't be in danger if he was more humble and silently left, since the cyclops didn't know who he was
There is a bit of justification for Open Arms. Odysseus seeking help from Aeolus against the wishes of his men, and pleading with Circe for help getting around Poseidon. Both cases follow the theme of 'Open Arms' where he puts himself at risk to be nice and merciful in front of a greater power and is rewarded for it.
As a classicist, the amount of things that were kept from the original text and the stuff that was changed yet remained 110% in the spirit of the original text has lead me to rant about this for hours to the people around me (*cough*Astanax*cough*) and honestly, I'm amazed by your work
I read somewhere that within the culture of its creation, Odysseus was an antihero. A trickster and a sneak in a world of mano-e-mano heroes. Some of my favorite bits and pieces have been where that shines through in almost silly ways, like at the end of "Ruthlessness", when he says, "All I gotta do is open this bag!"
I read differently. From what I understand, Odysseus is more of a hero in the original Greek tradition. However, the Roman culture is more about honor, and is not too found of tricks and deceit, so he is not a a model for them.
Yes and no. The Romans didn't like Odysseus all that much, but that was less because of him being tricksy and deceitful, but rather because the Romans thought themselves descendants of the Trojans, and given Odysseus being the key player in the Trojan Horse, they didn't have much love left for the guy. He was also not universally hated in Rome or anything, his intelligence and tendency to improvise himself to victory through seemingly impossible odds were still quite well liked. Somewhat the same can be said about the Greeks, by principle trickery was an admirable trait in heroes, because it represented intelligence, even Heracles solved a lot of his problems through smarts despite possibly being the hero best equipped to just punch his way through everything. Odysseus gets a little bit of a wrist slap because he is SO tricksy and scheming that it borders dishonour, but he was still a Greek and Roman hero, the last part being key here, he was always a hero, never a villain (Except if your name is Aeneas, but that guy was 80% hypocrisy by volume so who cares really?). Both the Romans and Greeks tended to think of him as a hero almost solely because of Hermes/Mercury being a core god in both pantheons. Hermes is a god of trickery and deceit, despite which he was always a revered and generally "good" god - Both the Greeks and the Romans understood Hermes and Mercury to be important and, for lack of a better term, morally good gods - and so values he represented were also seen as admirable. Odysseus problem is really just that he has too much of a good thing, stack overflow, basically.
@@jonathanstrock3562 If you're ever more curious about the Trojan to Roman bit, take a look at Virgil's Aeneid. It takes the relatively minor Trojan character Aeneas and turns him into the founder of Rome. Mythologically he is either the father or grandfather - I can't quite recall - of Romulus and Remus.
It's so interesting to hear that ruthlessness is going to be the character growth that Odysseus goes through. From the 2 arcs out currently as well as the clips from the rest of the musical, I got the impression that Odysseus was trying to find a balance between mercy and ruthlessness. Recognizing that fully embracing one or the other can cause more problems down the line.
I really like EPIC because in classic Greek fashion honestly Oddyesus seems like a bastard but in this he’s a bastard but his reason for being a bastard is his years of trauma and we get to SEE that trauma and how it slowly shapes him
Also something should be said about regional variations, Homer wrote down and “canonised” the Odyssey, but there were differences between each area it was told in. So it’s changes are keeping in theme with cultures change and values shifting over time! PS: plus it originally being an oral tradition would’ve likely included singing so 🔥
If we’re asking questions, I’m really curious to know how you feel about all these TikToks and TH-cam animatics using your songs, Jay. I’m sure you feel pride in your work and enjoy seeing it, but does the videos ever make you think “oh, I never thought it would look like that”? I know one of my personal favorite things is that mostly everyone sees Athena as an owl. Only Odysseus (and other gods) see her as a goddess. This is just among a few headcanons I’ve accepted, so I wanted to know if you’ve ever changed the way you thought about a song or the whole musical because of an interpretation
Just to add a little more to your question because I’m super curious and it coincides with the topic; did you expect the amount of animatics and also cover songs that would follow with each release or was that more of a surprise to you, Jay?
@@No_Named_Nobodyit's still headcanon because there's no indication in the source material that anyone else can see her at all, in any form. It's a headcanon that makes a lot of sense but it's still a headcanon
@@Neutral_Tired Not visibly see her. Not everyone sees gods/goddesses Irl. They’re drawing Athena as an owl because that’s her sacred animal. As opposed to an eagle that’s Zeus’s
One of the reasons I really like EPIC is the fact that you've established all of these characters in a very meaningful way. you cannot justify loss without the audience feeling some of it at the very least. So Polites' arc is a perfect addition here. It also makes Remember them hit a little too hard and the whole thing is just ...amazing and beautiful. I hope you know that your work is one of the most incredible things I've ever stumbled upon and it is pretty much a habit at this point to listen to the songs at least once a day haha. the fact that the Odyssey is such a well known classic, yet you still managed to create something so new with it is really a huge thing. Keep going...you're amazing. Thank you for sharing these glimpses into the creative process. It is fascinating to see how everything comes together bit by bit and what the exact thought process is behind all of it.
I agree with all of this! I listen to the track like every day too🤣 and I agree that Polities had an incredible arc, he was like my favorite character. Remember them is one of the most powerful songs, you just can’t describe it with words, only feelings can show the power of these peices
my dude focusing on the characters more than the plot is like. the essence of fanfic. you want more of a character so you make more of a character. this is fanfic and i love that this is fanfic because this is the kind of fanfic thats just a love letter to canon and each and every kind of fanfic is awesome but the way youre doing it is AWESOME
It gets wilder when you realize the Odyssey is a fanfic too. Homer took irl characters and irl events, added his own fantastical elements, and then wrote his own story based off of canon. If that ain't ancient fanfic, then I don't know what is XD
as a classicist, i absolutely, terribly adore this musical. a lot of times, modern adaptations of classic materials do speak to a contemporary audience, but utterly fail at grasping the core itself of the original characters and themes (see: song of achilles). but epic expands what is already a big theme in the odyssey: from the beginning, the idea of "the end justifies the means", the end being "surviving", is pretty much an assumed, an inherent and never questioned trait of odysseus'. but you problematized it, put it under an ethical, emotional light, even. and, since compared to the iliad, the odyssey is VERY MUCH human, rather than divine, fits like a tailor-made glove. also, i am no expert in the technical aspects of a musical, but i love how the music is visual, how the music itself is able, without any visual support, to convey images and actions. i absolutely love it, i personally cannot wait for the next sagas!!
I can't say I entirely agree with your central message, I'd be more inclined to say that, like everything else in the world, both Ruthlessness and Open Arms are good in moderation and very dangerous when over-indulged. However, I think what you're going for is still pretty respectable and you're executing it very well, and i do still love EPIC so far for what it is and I'm really looking forward to seeing the rest of it.
Absolutely adore how you've been able to shift the tone of the source material to align so well with the central message you want to show! The way you explain each portion is very inspirational and it really gives an 'oh wow! That's so clever!' feeling. And, the bit at around 2 minutes where Jay says 'especially when we lose him [polites]' and it cuts to a snippet of the killing strike moment as he goes :D at the camera 😭 genuinely made me gasp
It'*s really cool how he changed the story from: Odysseys crew is a bunch of idiots that fuck everything up and the gods just out to get him, to a story about a man showing mercy and paying the price for it.
I don't think ruthlessness is a quality to strive for. But I think thta is what makes this musical so great. You see how odysious is forced in directions he never wants to go. He is faced with tragedy after tragedy. And all he can cling to is getting home to his wife and son. He looses a part of himself along the way.
I love hearing about all the symbolism in this musical. It’s clear that you’re a very meticulous thinker, and I love the deeper meanings hidden behind all of the amazing music. Speaking of music, if there’s any way you can give us information about the release date of the next saga, the knot of anticipation in my stomach would be grateful to unravel a little bit. I know that you’re still working out the details, but I’m very excited to know when the next completed saga is coming out. :)
Is one of the changes that Polites dies to Polyphemus in their fight? Much earlier than in the Odyssey, but great for pushing the narrative that 'open arms' might not be the way to go in Greek mythology.
But on a different note, I agree with what everyone is saying on here. You're an amazingly creative and talented man and the way that you've thought so heavily on ways to incorporate the Odyssey into Epic and just flesh out every piece of music in a way that has us viewers captured and addicted is a masterpiece. Absolute chef's kiss
I think me and many others would be interested in a video like this but more factual. Going through the musical and talking about what is different from the book. Not necessarily the reasons you made the changes but at least a laundry list of changes.
i always thought epic's theme is such a good one. I'm a people pleaser and often harm myself to help others, so this is a good message to remind me that I can't be a hero to everyone. In someone's story, no matter how good I try to be, I may be the monster. That doesn't mean we should all be terrible, but our actions may sometimes be to protect our own hearts and homes. Love this musical so much dude
As someone interested in history and literature, I truly love the way you were able to recreate the heart of this ancient story while adding a modern perspective to it. I've recently bought the Odyssey in the newest Polish translatio and I'm looking forward to reading it and finding all the similarities and differences by myself!
In Homer's epic, Odysseus was not particularly faithful to Penelope either. He had children with Circe and Calypso. To make things even funnier, after Odysseus' death, Penelope married Odysseus and Circe's son.
Have you read Circe by Madeline Miller? Also a retelling from parts of the Odyssey. So interesting to see it from Circe's (and a female) point of view. Amazing book.
This is awesome! I've been wondering about this question myself; the theme of ruthlessness is something I've been very interested in, and seeing your work has been a huge inspiration and joy.
I love all of this! Everything about this whole process/journey you are sharing. I'm a high school teacher, and I shared your music with my colleagues, who now use it to support their teaching of the Odyssey in the classroom. It is AWESOME!!!
This is so fascinating-- and I think very true to the spirit of the society in which the source material was written. As a Classics student, I absolutely love all of the references to ancient Greek society having fundamentally different values to our own. And as a Hamilton fan, I REALLY love the use of motifs throughout this amazing work.
So the lesson is that we need to be more Ruthless? I feel like thats the incorrect word. Well if we want to phrase it in a positive light. I think as opposed to Ruthless, I think the word should be Adamant. Odysseus becoming more Adamant on what he needs to do in order to survive and get things done. Being Adamant is similar to being Ruthless, but removes the negative connotations such as cruelty. But also Odysseus is being cruel by not being cutthroat here. Because in a way, Odysseus not killing the Cyclops in itself is being Cruel. Leaving him injured and to be mocked.
I love that it’s possible to adapt something and still be able to make it all fit together, even though it doesn’t follow the source material word for word
I do hope that open arms is referred to at the end, as Odysseus accepts that Penelope can indeed love the new him. Having mercy upon ourselves after we have been ruthless, and that people can love the world despite how dark the world is, is perhaps actually what Polites was ultimately trying to tell Odysseus. He just had a lot of his personal naivete in the way.
I think one of the biggest differences may be that characters in Homer's The Odyssey do not break out in song regularly to explain their motivations and actions, and wax philosophic. Although, admittedly, that would be very cool.
My favourite change you've made is having Odysseus in the fecking Odessy! In the poem he doesn't show until book 7... Question: Does Athena still play a part in Epic after 'My Goodbye'? In the poem, she disguises him in mist and as an old man when he goes to Ithica and is a big part in the end of the poem.
Also the fact that in the myths Odysseus wasn’t faithful to his wife. But then again, hardly anyone was faithful to their lover in Greek mythology soooooooo
I really enjoy this play and the way it analyzes ruthlessness and mercy. I'm not sure if I agree with the message being that you need to embrace ruthlessness, though. The world doesn't need more negativity put into it.
If I'm being quite honest, and perhaps slightly over-dramatic, what there is left of my sanity depends on when you'll be releasing more of EPIC's soundtrack. I've been listening to The Troy Saga and The Cyclops Saga religiously, devoting myself to master every song, despite my inability to meet EVERYONE'S range. This is me asking for more, sir.
Very recently found all of this and it's really getting me in the mood to reread the Odyssey because it's been years, but I don't recall Moly being able to summon a custom monster for brief but epic combat. Be neat to see something on that
Thanks to this video. For me, many details of the Epic (like the winions) did'nt make sense for me. This video clarify this doubts and difference about the Epic musical and real greek mythology.
When did Odysseus show mercy? He spared polythemus’s life, but also taunted him and told him his name. It seems like his problem is more arrogance and biting off more than he can chew than mercy.
Based on how it’s portrayed in the song, it doesn’t seem to me like Odysseus was taunting Polyphemus at all. His tone isn’t mocking, and honestly neither are his words. “When we met I led with peace while you fed your inner beast, but my comrades will not die in vain. Remember them. The next time that you dare choose not to spare, remember them. Remember us. Remember me.” Although he ends the song by listing his titles and true name, it doesn’t seem that Odysseus is doing this to gloat. He’s merely telling Polyphemus to remember and ponder his victims, the ones who survived, and Odysseus himself (who showed Polyphemus as much mercy as could be afforded).
Are all the people who are singing the songs going to be the actors when this is performed as a musical, or is it going to be different people for the actors?
tbh i was thinking about this, since a big part of the source book is about attaining glory and memory/remembering. i was so confused when i listened for the first time, but this video clears my doubts, as i really liked the direction it had. my fav song is no longer you coz there's my boy tiresias doing god's work, again.
This is late, but I have a question: Did you ever have plan for Eris to be the the musical, and what would her music sound like, I sorts imagine a carnival sounding music.
I love that instead of changing basically everything about the story *cough cough* Disney.… he instead tweaked a few things to make it more compelling. I love Jorge’s work.
Whear ken i lissen to al the songs bicas i kend find more thans the 2 spotyfy playlists you have on theare ? I lissen to it every Day so woord love to get more of it
I see the philosophies as two sides of the same coin. It's always a good idea to be kind and understanding, as you have no idea what someone is or has gone through; however you do not have to, nor should you let others use your kindness to hurt you. There in lies ruthlessness. Give people a chance, but if the overstep you are not obligated to allow continued interaction.
I was watching a short from a few months ago where you were saying that anyone could audition. Do you have to be over the age of 18? I know there's probably not a shot at me getting anywhere with this but I just wanted to ask.
Seriously, the moral of the story is ruthlessness? I was giving you more credit than that..huh I liked the whole imperfect man struggling with himself and his choices, and his character flaws. The story is more about the folly of ruthlessness, especially at the end when Athena has to step in to end the otherwise perpetual violence
I love epic but i don't think I like the message... If it was a coutious tale about fallout of violence. From my point of view I seen all the pain that fell on Odysseus was becouse of his first sin of a troyan horse. Sneaky unhonorable crime. He can't escape it and even he tries to do good he can't escape the fact that he is a monster. Maybe he was just a monster who refused to acknowladge it. But form what I seen author sees his change as a good thing? Yeah be cruel I guess amd don't care about others. I guess wanted another Vinland Saga...
Yeah seems a bit effed up. I’ve loved the musical so far but I feel like I just lost a lot of respect for the creator. If it was a villain arc or a negative character arc that would be one thing, but it seems he’s framing cruelty as good? Poseidon and Polyphemus are supposed to be villains, so the moral of the story is “be more like these douches?” Yeah… don’t mind me, I’m gonna be crafting my own musical about how kicking puppies is actually good thing.
@@steveirwin3594 You know now that I listened to his songs more his decision grew on me. I don't think he takes such a decisive stance as I thought. I think that Odysseus ultimatly does everything for his family. That's why he killed the baby and that's why he changed. You know he was always like this but we just see he refused to look st that side of himself. He always has a choice to stop his travels to avoid bloodshed but it's just not who he is. In short I hope it will not end up black and white and I like how most animatics show his change as bad
Well aside from numbers being off, events that went VERY differently in the original poem, nuances, and characters dying at different points or not dying at all.
cant believe homer enjoyed the musical so much that he adapted it into a full thing
He even made a prequel!
@@ChubbyTadpoleheard there were spinoffs too, but I'm pretty sure those got lost to time
I don't think I've ever seen a story where ruthlessness is the *end* of the character arc and framed as a *positive* trait. It's a really interesting perspective that, while I'm not sure it necessarily applies in our modern society, seems to serve this story well and reframe a lot of Odysseus' actions so the reasons behind them make more sense
I’ve been debating about this myself, and the way I’m interpreting it is that the difference between a gentle person and just a weak one is that they have the capacity to do harm and they know when to be ruthless and when to hold back.
I do agree with you though that it might not quite fit in a modern context. The two angles I personally feel like people could take this through is someone in a literal fight for their lives against someone actively hurting them, or the less literal lens of the story being someone re-learning to stand up for themselves and what they care about (where the person might feel like they’re being too aggressive, but they’re actually doing it right and just not used to it)
Yeah as someone very much like polites, there's something to be said for standing up for yourself sometimes (that I still need to learn)
Odysseus did a LOT of shady stuff in the epic cycle and I absolutely love him for it. Jay’s adaptation already made him a more “open arms” character than his classics characterization imo. I’m very relieved and glad we won’t have an adaptation where he sits down with all the suitors and be friends and live happily ever after lol
Well theoretically, to apply it in a modern sense you might replace ruthlessness with selfishness. There's a point where it's ok, if not necessary, to serve your own interest, but at the same time going too far just breeds more problems
@@zashgekido5616 Exactly! You get it :)
"Especially when we lose him- (cut to Survive THUD)"
2:00
That made me laugh, I'm sorry
Bro Im over here chuckling in class after that
The way I audibly gasped at the audacity 😂
At some point is quoted saying "Because I like pancakes" in some recap of the story 😂
I was caught so off guard by his smile for real tho. Poleties dies and all we get is this: 😀
Ans the giant smile he had on his face XD
I love how "Open Arms" and "Ruthlessness" are so different from each other
Perfect PFP, 10/10
that's kind of the point lol
As an Ancient Greek student, something that I think really resonates with the 'original' Odyssey is Just a Man. The very first word of the poem is 'andra', which means 'Man' and it is one of the main points of the story him being just one man. He is also said to be 'divine', which I can really see in the lines of the show "I am no man nor mythical".
great-grandson of Apollo, isn't he? or...Hermes? probably Hermes.
@@acolytetojippityHermes is the trickster of his pantheon so going of a fellow trickster God Loki it's probably Hermes.
Only for Athena to still call him as just a man after he showed his hubris
@@Tomy_LightningMore or less, he is quite loyal and diligent to his fellow Gods
@@mado-wh4jv me when i steal apollo's sacred cows the day im born
Oh, wow, I never really would have gotten that the moral is Odysseus **embracing** ruthlessness. It started with him killing the sleeping Trojans and an innocent baby. Mercy's a skill more of this world could learn to use.
I think it's a middle ground where he learns that you cant keep giving people chances to be good people, if they show you who they are dont hesitate to kill.
@@Illier1which is honestly a good lesson for a lot of people. Because people will keep toxic people in their lives and need to learn to cut them out. But sometimes they can be blinded by the trama the toxic person causes and that can lead to them cutting out the good people too. Like how Odysseyus rejected Athena after losing his men to Polyphemus.
It also ends with Odysseus killing the suitors, which causes their families to raise arms in revolt before Athena steps in and stops them. Odysseus’s ruthlessness is part of a cycle of violence that would kill him except that Athena steps in and forces an end to the violence, directing contradicting the moral of the adaptation by protecting Odysseus through mercy.
@Urkkahlia this is assuming the story continues that way, which is probably wont. The Suitors are depicted as being incredibly douchy in this telling as is so it makes sense Odysseus doesn't give them the chance to get revenge for him coming back.
This is only one song thats very obviously the low point in his emotional state. He's not going to become one or the other. He becomes a man who knows when to be merciful but also knows when punishment needs to fit the crimes.
Take it like this. Is it a mercy to blind a child, and leave him to starve after butchering his family???
My favorite difference is that Odysseus actually stayed loyal to his wife, he was so in love with her that he hadn't even noticed other women. I think it's a very important modern update (in ancient Greece double standards were pretty common, only women were being judged and punished if they cheated), and although Odysseus accepting Circe's offer could raise a very important discussion (male SA survivors are being erased from public discourse and I think it's sad), I'm glad that we got a version where Circe respects and admires his faithfulness to Penelope. I screamed when after speculating if "There Are Other Ways" will be the Epic's version of "Say No To This", we got a song when he ACTUALLY says no to this (I love Hamilton, but he should learn from Odysseus). We stan our short, loyal king ❤ I can't wait for the full musical and I really hope for a stage version, it's too good to not become a Broadway hit 🔥
Damn, I was hoping that carried true between Epic and The Odyssey. Sad...
Wait I'm confused, how does him being SA'd count as cheating? That's like saying all the victims in of zues that were in relationships cheated for being taken advantaged of
@@E.V.moon101 I never said it does. In the original myth, Odysseus had a relationship with Circe out of his own will, because for men extramarital affairs were pretty common. That's cheating. In this song, when Circe suggested an intercourse, she expected Odysseus to be willing, like most men. He refused her offer, because he values his wife above everything, and Circe respected that, she didn't try to force him to anything. But if she did push him harder or he initially accepted her offer despite his unwillingness, he would've been in fact SAd, since coercion is not consent. So it wouldn't be counted as cheating, but Odysseus probably would've thought he did cheat. He would've felt guilty and dirty, he wouldn't want to accept it as SA, since he agreed to everything, he had a "choice" (life of his friends in exchange for his body and honor, seemingly a small price), he would've thought there was something else he could've done, that it could've been avoided somehow (aka one of the most common trauma responses to SA). And that could potentially raise a discussion about male SA survivors. But as I said, I'm glad that Circe respected his refusal and didn't push further, it sends a positive message that no means no.
I mean, the aspect of SA was present more in his relationship with Calypso (as he expresses clearly he doesn't want to be there and he doesn't want that relationship but she forces it and even compares it to the way male gods force women) so I don't think it has been erased so much as we haven't gotten there.
@@E.V.moon101In the OG story, or at least the translation I read, when talking about Circe, the relationship was a lot more "mutual" at least from what we're told
It took me a bit to shift my more modern thinking to understand the theme. In most stories Open Arms would have been the morality lesson and end goal, but in this story it serves as the obstacle. Polities is such a charismatic character and his song is so catchy, but it ends up poisoning the well and the moment Odysseus starts trying to act upon the lesson his friend imparted upon him everything goes wrong. I do wish Polities had some sort of justification though.
My friend is a historian and she pointed out to me that a lot of Odysseus's arc involves him learning humility, so I think him having to learn to be more self serving lends really well to his being more cautious. He's got divinity, he's a king, and he's a warrior trained by a war goddess but his name means nothing if he's dead from boasting about it.
This theme is explored a little at the end of the Cyclops saga and the beginning of the Ocean saga btw. Odysseus spares the cyclops after blinding him and goes on a rant about how great he is and proudly tells him his name. As a consequence of that the cyclops tells his father that Odysseus blinded him and Poseidon tries to kill Odysseus. Odysseus wouldn't be in danger if he was more humble and silently left, since the cyclops didn't know who he was
There is a bit of justification for Open Arms. Odysseus seeking help from Aeolus against the wishes of his men, and pleading with Circe for help getting around Poseidon. Both cases follow the theme of 'Open Arms' where he puts himself at risk to be nice and merciful in front of a greater power and is rewarded for it.
As a classicist, the amount of things that were kept from the original text and the stuff that was changed yet remained 110% in the spirit of the original text has lead me to rant about this for hours to the people around me (*cough*Astanax*cough*) and honestly, I'm amazed by your work
Same, and also thank you for existing cause now i feel less alone in my (slightly) obsessive way of living rn xD
@@melixie286 Oh man I felt that in my soul 😂
I read somewhere that within the culture of its creation, Odysseus was an antihero. A trickster and a sneak in a world of mano-e-mano heroes. Some of my favorite bits and pieces have been where that shines through in almost silly ways, like at the end of "Ruthlessness", when he says, "All I gotta do is open this bag!"
I read differently. From what I understand, Odysseus is more of a hero in the original Greek tradition. However, the Roman culture is more about honor, and is not too found of tricks and deceit, so he is not a a model for them.
Yes and no. The Romans didn't like Odysseus all that much, but that was less because of him being tricksy and deceitful, but rather because the Romans thought themselves descendants of the Trojans, and given Odysseus being the key player in the Trojan Horse, they didn't have much love left for the guy. He was also not universally hated in Rome or anything, his intelligence and tendency to improvise himself to victory through seemingly impossible odds were still quite well liked. Somewhat the same can be said about the Greeks, by principle trickery was an admirable trait in heroes, because it represented intelligence, even Heracles solved a lot of his problems through smarts despite possibly being the hero best equipped to just punch his way through everything. Odysseus gets a little bit of a wrist slap because he is SO tricksy and scheming that it borders dishonour, but he was still a Greek and Roman hero, the last part being key here, he was always a hero, never a villain (Except if your name is Aeneas, but that guy was 80% hypocrisy by volume so who cares really?).
Both the Romans and Greeks tended to think of him as a hero almost solely because of Hermes/Mercury being a core god in both pantheons. Hermes is a god of trickery and deceit, despite which he was always a revered and generally "good" god - Both the Greeks and the Romans understood Hermes and Mercury to be important and, for lack of a better term, morally good gods - and so values he represented were also seen as admirable. Odysseus problem is really just that he has too much of a good thing, stack overflow, basically.
@@desreploid3353 wow, thanks for the history lesson! Especially about the Trojan to Roman bit.
@@jonathanstrock3562 If you're ever more curious about the Trojan to Roman bit, take a look at Virgil's Aeneid. It takes the relatively minor Trojan character Aeneas and turns him into the founder of Rome. Mythologically he is either the father or grandfather - I can't quite recall - of Romulus and Remus.
It's so interesting to hear that ruthlessness is going to be the character growth that Odysseus goes through.
From the 2 arcs out currently as well as the clips from the rest of the musical, I got the impression that Odysseus was trying to find a balance between mercy and ruthlessness. Recognizing that fully embracing one or the other can cause more problems down the line.
That feels like it would be a better lesson
I really like EPIC because in classic Greek fashion honestly Oddyesus seems like a bastard but in this he’s a bastard but his reason for being a bastard is his years of trauma and we get to SEE that trauma and how it slowly shapes him
2:00 nOT THE CLUB REFERENCE WHEN THEY FIGHT THE CYCLOPS ALKDJASKLDFJA 🤣
He looks so happy about it too
Also something should be said about regional variations, Homer wrote down and “canonised” the Odyssey, but there were differences between each area it was told in. So it’s changes are keeping in theme with cultures change and values shifting over time!
PS: plus it originally being an oral tradition would’ve likely included singing so 🔥
I think it was more like I'll do some research tho
If we’re asking questions, I’m really curious to know how you feel about all these TikToks and TH-cam animatics using your songs, Jay. I’m sure you feel pride in your work and enjoy seeing it, but does the videos ever make you think “oh, I never thought it would look like that”? I know one of my personal favorite things is that mostly everyone sees Athena as an owl. Only Odysseus (and other gods) see her as a goddess. This is just among a few headcanons I’ve accepted, so I wanted to know if you’ve ever changed the way you thought about a song or the whole musical because of an interpretation
He reacted to a few so I think he likes them lol. But im curious to what he'll have to say as well
Just to add a little more to your question because I’m super curious and it coincides with the topic; did you expect the amount of animatics and also cover songs that would follow with each release or was that more of a surprise to you, Jay?
People see Athena as an Owl because that’s actually her sacred animal. That’s not a headcanon, thats accurate.
@@No_Named_Nobodyit's still headcanon because there's no indication in the source material that anyone else can see her at all, in any form. It's a headcanon that makes a lot of sense but it's still a headcanon
@@Neutral_Tired
Not visibly see her. Not everyone sees gods/goddesses
Irl. They’re drawing Athena as an owl because that’s her sacred animal. As opposed to an eagle that’s Zeus’s
One of the reasons I really like EPIC is the fact that you've established all of these characters in a very meaningful way. you cannot justify loss without the audience feeling some of it at the very least. So Polites' arc is a perfect addition here. It also makes Remember them hit a little too hard and the whole thing is just ...amazing and beautiful. I hope you know that your work is one of the most incredible things I've ever stumbled upon and it is pretty much a habit at this point to listen to the songs at least once a day haha. the fact that the Odyssey is such a well known classic, yet you still managed to create something so new with it is really a huge thing. Keep going...you're amazing. Thank you for sharing these glimpses into the creative process. It is fascinating to see how everything comes together bit by bit and what the exact thought process is behind all of it.
I agree with all of this! I listen to the track like every day too🤣 and I agree that Polities had an incredible arc, he was like my favorite character. Remember them is one of the most powerful songs, you just can’t describe it with words, only feelings can show the power of these peices
@@colbymenck 🎉🎉😂❤. The lotus eaters are funny because they give off stoner comedy vibes 😂😂❤.
my dude focusing on the characters more than the plot is like. the essence of fanfic. you want more of a character so you make more of a character. this is fanfic and i love that this is fanfic because this is the kind of fanfic thats just a love letter to canon and each and every kind of fanfic is awesome but the way youre doing it is AWESOME
It gets wilder when you realize the Odyssey is a fanfic too. Homer took irl characters and irl events, added his own fantastical elements, and then wrote his own story based off of canon. If that ain't ancient fanfic, then I don't know what is XD
2:03 yeah, let's pretend those club blows never hurt... *I jumped the first times I heard the song. It hurt pretty bad 🤧*
as a classicist, i absolutely, terribly adore this musical. a lot of times, modern adaptations of classic materials do speak to a contemporary audience, but utterly fail at grasping the core itself of the original characters and themes (see: song of achilles). but epic expands what is already a big theme in the odyssey: from the beginning, the idea of "the end justifies the means", the end being "surviving", is pretty much an assumed, an inherent and never questioned trait of odysseus'. but you problematized it, put it under an ethical, emotional light, even. and, since compared to the iliad, the odyssey is VERY MUCH human, rather than divine, fits like a tailor-made glove.
also, i am no expert in the technical aspects of a musical, but i love how the music is visual, how the music itself is able, without any visual support, to convey images and actions.
i absolutely love it, i personally cannot wait for the next sagas!!
I can't say I entirely agree with your central message, I'd be more inclined to say that, like everything else in the world, both Ruthlessness and Open Arms are good in moderation and very dangerous when over-indulged.
However, I think what you're going for is still pretty respectable and you're executing it very well, and i do still love EPIC so far for what it is and I'm really looking forward to seeing the rest of it.
Absolutely adore how you've been able to shift the tone of the source material to align so well with the central message you want to show! The way you explain each portion is very inspirational and it really gives an 'oh wow! That's so clever!' feeling.
And, the bit at around 2 minutes where Jay says 'especially when we lose him [polites]' and it cuts to a snippet of the killing strike moment as he goes :D at the camera 😭 genuinely made me gasp
Watching that tiktok for the first time and seeing how happy he looked killed me
It'*s really cool how he changed the story from: Odysseys crew is a bunch of idiots that fuck everything up and the gods just out to get him, to a story about a man showing mercy and paying the price for it.
So refreshing to find a creator who respects the original source material!!
I don't think ruthlessness is a quality to strive for. But I think thta is what makes this musical so great. You see how odysious is forced in directions he never wants to go. He is faced with tragedy after tragedy. And all he can cling to is getting home to his wife and son. He looses a part of himself along the way.
I love hearing about all the symbolism in this musical. It’s clear that you’re a very meticulous thinker, and I love the deeper meanings hidden behind all of the amazing music. Speaking of music, if there’s any way you can give us information about the release date of the next saga, the knot of anticipation in my stomach would be grateful to unravel a little bit. I know that you’re still working out the details, but I’m very excited to know when the next completed saga is coming out. :)
2:23 can we just talk about how that wave just destroyed (idk how to spell his name)'s voice actor XD
Assist from Poseidon as he is getting ruthless
Is one of the changes that Polites dies to Polyphemus in their fight? Much earlier than in the Odyssey, but great for pushing the narrative that 'open arms' might not be the way to go in Greek mythology.
But on a different note, I agree with what everyone is saying on here. You're an amazingly creative and talented man and the way that you've thought so heavily on ways to incorporate the Odyssey into Epic and just flesh out every piece of music in a way that has us viewers captured and addicted is a masterpiece.
Absolute chef's kiss
THAT BEAT DROP OH MY GOD HOW DARE! And also omg the morality questions in this this is so brilliant I'm fascinated by it
I think me and many others would be interested in a video like this but more factual. Going through the musical and talking about what is different from the book. Not necessarily the reasons you made the changes but at least a laundry list of changes.
i always thought epic's theme is such a good one. I'm a people pleaser and often harm myself to help others, so this is a good message to remind me that I can't be a hero to everyone. In someone's story, no matter how good I try to be, I may be the monster. That doesn't mean we should all be terrible, but our actions may sometimes be to protect our own hearts and homes.
Love this musical so much dude
As someone interested in history and literature, I truly love the way you were able to recreate the heart of this ancient story while adding a modern perspective to it. I've recently bought the Odyssey in the newest Polish translatio and I'm looking forward to reading it and finding all the similarities and differences by myself!
In Homer's epic, Odysseus was not particularly faithful to Penelope either. He had children with Circe and Calypso. To make things even funnier, after Odysseus' death, Penelope married Odysseus and Circe's son.
Lets not forget said son with Circe accidentally unalived Odesseyus 😳
@@olivenwanderi830 He must have been quite a badass if so many monsters and gods failed to do so.
Everytime I see or hear this man, I fall more in love with him it's almost sad😂😢
I just re-read the odyssey, and it just made me more excited for this musical. Your storytelling is amazing and I'm so invested in this version.
Ahh I have notifications on for this very reason! Your videos on this are so cool and I love seeing your thought process.
I find myself rooting for Odysseus to embrace kindness in the end, even though i know it won’t happen. It makes it all so much more tragic
Have you read Circe by Madeline Miller? Also a retelling from parts of the Odyssey. So interesting to see it from Circe's (and a female) point of view. Amazing book.
2:04 that was wild. 😭The smile...
Now this makes me want simething like this on either The Song of Achilles or the Iliad as a whole
love the commitment in the last scene💀💀
Honestly after everything Odysseus has been through up until that point. If he let Eurylychus stop him everyone would have died for nothing
Do you ever plan to make a musical about the illiad ?
2:17 “Sometimes killing is a must”
And the fact that Odysseus never battled Eurolyochus
This is awesome! I've been wondering about this question myself; the theme of ruthlessness is something I've been very interested in, and seeing your work has been a huge inspiration and joy.
I love all of this! Everything about this whole process/journey you are sharing. I'm a high school teacher, and I shared your music with my colleagues, who now use it to support their teaching of the Odyssey in the classroom. It is AWESOME!!!
His music has stomped on my heart more than anyone i have ever loved. Well done Sir
Thanks for this great video! Really loving your musical!
I want to thank you for creating this amazing musical I have started to reread the Odyssey.
This is so fascinating-- and I think very true to the spirit of the society in which the source material was written. As a Classics student, I absolutely love all of the references to ancient Greek society having fundamentally different values to our own. And as a Hamilton fan, I REALLY love the use of motifs throughout this amazing work.
2:10 the "welcome" jumpscared me
So the lesson is that we need to be more Ruthless? I feel like thats the incorrect word. Well if we want to phrase it in a positive light. I think as opposed to Ruthless, I think the word should be Adamant. Odysseus becoming more Adamant on what he needs to do in order to survive and get things done. Being Adamant is similar to being Ruthless, but removes the negative connotations such as cruelty. But also Odysseus is being cruel by not being cutthroat here. Because in a way, Odysseus not killing the Cyclops in itself is being Cruel. Leaving him injured and to be mocked.
I love that perspective!
His crew asked for ruthlessness and they got it 😭
WHEN IS EPIC COMING TO BROADWAY? YOU ARE REALLY TALENTED.
I love that it’s possible to adapt something and still be able to make it all fit together, even though it doesn’t follow the source material word for word
Alright, Machiavelli, while that may be what you think typically the main point of your story shouldn’t be presented by your villain.
2:02 I'm going hell, that transition made me laugh so hard, dammit😅
I really liked this! I was wondering about this! Thank you
I do hope that open arms is referred to at the end, as Odysseus accepts that Penelope can indeed love the new him. Having mercy upon ourselves after we have been ruthless, and that people can love the world despite how dark the world is, is perhaps actually what Polites was ultimately trying to tell Odysseus. He just had a lot of his personal naivete in the way.
I think one of the biggest differences may be that characters in Homer's The Odyssey do not break out in song regularly to explain their motivations and actions, and wax philosophic. Although, admittedly, that would be very cool.
My favourite change you've made is having Odysseus in the fecking Odessy! In the poem he doesn't show until book 7...
Question: Does Athena still play a part in Epic after 'My Goodbye'? In the poem, she disguises him in mist and as an old man when he goes to Ithica and is a big part in the end of the poem.
I thought that the whinons were foreshadowing ody stabing eury
Also the fact that in the myths Odysseus wasn’t faithful to his wife. But then again, hardly anyone was faithful to their lover in Greek mythology soooooooo
I really enjoy this play and the way it analyzes ruthlessness and mercy. I'm not sure if I agree with the message being that you need to embrace ruthlessness, though. The world doesn't need more negativity put into it.
I personally love how you've contextually changed some of the modalities like Odysseus not constantly cheating on his wife anymore lmao
If I'm being quite honest, and perhaps slightly over-dramatic, what there is left of my sanity depends on when you'll be releasing more of EPIC's soundtrack. I've been listening to The Troy Saga and The Cyclops Saga religiously, devoting myself to master every song, despite my inability to meet EVERYONE'S range. This is me asking for more, sir.
Very recently found all of this and it's really getting me in the mood to reread the Odyssey because it's been years, but I don't recall Moly being able to summon a custom monster for brief but epic combat. Be neat to see something on that
Also Odysseus being faithful is a pretty big divergence
Thanks to this video. For me, many details of the Epic (like the winions) did'nt make sense for me. This video clarify this doubts and difference about the Epic musical and real greek mythology.
When did Odysseus show mercy? He spared polythemus’s life, but also taunted him and told him his name. It seems like his problem is more arrogance and biting off more than he can chew than mercy.
Based on how it’s portrayed in the song, it doesn’t seem to me like Odysseus was taunting Polyphemus at all. His tone isn’t mocking, and honestly neither are his words.
“When we met I led with peace while you fed your inner beast, but my comrades will not die in vain. Remember them. The next time that you dare choose not to spare, remember them. Remember us. Remember me.”
Although he ends the song by listing his titles and true name, it doesn’t seem that Odysseus is doing this to gloat. He’s merely telling Polyphemus to remember and ponder his victims, the ones who survived, and Odysseus himself (who showed Polyphemus as much mercy as could be afforded).
Are all the people who are singing the songs going to be the actors when this is performed as a musical, or is it going to be different people for the actors?
Dude, your musical helped me in my literature class
The best song is no doubt Survive
I’m also pretty sure Eurylochus is killed by Zeus not Odysseus, but that doesn’t serve the theme
Where did you get the inspiration to make The Odyssey into a musical? Do you take inspiration from other artists or musicals?
He forgot about how polites died
I remember learning that while the greeks considered Odysseus a hero the Romans considered him a villain.
tbh i was thinking about this, since a big part of the source book is about attaining glory and memory/remembering. i was so confused when i listened for the first time, but this video clears my doubts, as i really liked the direction it had.
my fav song is no longer you coz there's my boy tiresias doing god's work, again.
This is late, but I have a question: Did you ever have plan for Eris to be the the musical, and what would her music sound like, I sorts imagine a carnival sounding music.
Does this mean I’ll see the line “My name is nobody” in the Odyssey?
I love that instead of changing basically everything about the story *cough cough* Disney.… he instead tweaked a few things to make it more compelling. I love Jorge’s work.
And in light of Jorge's recent short "12 lOnG YeArS" is also different
Whear ken i lissen to al the songs bicas i kend find more thans the 2 spotyfy playlists you have on theare ? I lissen to it every Day so woord love to get more of it
2:09 This is now my new 'Hey Sisters'
I see the philosophies as two sides of the same coin. It's always a good idea to be kind and understanding, as you have no idea what someone is or has gone through; however you do not have to, nor should you let others use your kindness to hurt you. There in lies ruthlessness. Give people a chance, but if the overstep you are not obligated to allow continued interaction.
i like how it is very closely related to the odyssey. but still has many diffrences.
Where is the next part coming out ?
I was watching a short from a few months ago where you were saying that anyone could audition. Do you have to be over the age of 18? I know there's probably not a shot at me getting anywhere with this but I just wanted to ask.
Gotta love the stick sword
When i found out that polities was only mencond twice i was sad becuse i really liked the charter you made him😢
I would love to see if the epic musical made a music about king of sparta Leonidas
When will the next saga be released?
Seriously, the moral of the story is ruthlessness? I was giving you more credit than that..huh
I liked the whole imperfect man struggling with himself and his choices, and his character flaws. The story is more about the folly of ruthlessness, especially at the end when Athena has to step in to end the otherwise perpetual violence
I love epic but i don't think I like the message... If it was a coutious tale about fallout of violence. From my point of view I seen all the pain that fell on Odysseus was becouse of his first sin of a troyan horse. Sneaky unhonorable crime. He can't escape it and even he tries to do good he can't escape the fact that he is a monster. Maybe he was just a monster who refused to acknowladge it. But form what I seen author sees his change as a good thing? Yeah be cruel I guess amd don't care about others. I guess wanted another Vinland Saga...
Yeah seems a bit effed up. I’ve loved the musical so far but I feel like I just lost a lot of respect for the creator.
If it was a villain arc or a negative character arc that would be one thing, but it seems he’s framing cruelty as good?
Poseidon and Polyphemus are supposed to be villains, so the moral of the story is “be more like these douches?”
Yeah… don’t mind me, I’m gonna be crafting my own musical about how kicking puppies is actually good thing.
@@steveirwin3594 You know now that I listened to his songs more his decision grew on me. I don't think he takes such a decisive stance as I thought. I think that Odysseus ultimatly does everything for his family. That's why he killed the baby and that's why he changed. You know he was always like this but we just see he refused to look st that side of himself. He always has a choice to stop his travels to avoid bloodshed but it's just not who he is. In short I hope it will not end up black and white and I like how most animatics show his change as bad
I love those explanation videos !!
Ikr!
can we talk about the "WELCOME" at 2:09 tho? XD
Well aside from numbers being off, events that went VERY differently in the original poem, nuances, and characters dying at different points or not dying at all.
Odysseus actully becomes Circies lover for a year. In the odyssey
Sad there doesn't appear to be any sirens, but understandable why.