@@Kaxuria not to defend Leffen for the mass of bullying he put people under in 2013-2015 but y'all are interpretating everything he does as some kind of malicous egoistic attempt. He generally means well to the scene but is pretty bad at communicating that because he always attacks things to get smth. moving. Also Leffen never did actual proofable things to get him banned after his 1 year ban. You can say his attitude towards Juan wasn't great online but it was just two very unlikeable guys getting at each other and now they can basically go to an amusement parc. We need to stop painting pictures of people and putting them into character boxes or how do you think Leffen will improve when atleast 50 people per day DM him that he is a piece of sh.? Our community is so toxic already but the whole stretch of holding players accountable that started with the video Hax$ made in a drunken state of schizophrenia made us selfdestructive. Thanks to Hax$ and mostly Technicals we have the worst publicity besides the allegation summer. And while some things Tech said are probally really valid the way he always tried to make all TOs look like malicous gatekeepers of a monopoly and ped0defenders has been so messed up. I can tell you with a lot of shame but honesty that i believed a lot of things that in retrospective are just lies and rumors spread by him to further damage the scene. My main point still being: stop putting people into boxes or roles and try to see every person for the actions they have taken in the past and present. Leffen really tried to be a good influence on Melee for the last years by constantly trying to motivate EU to give a damn about competition and even held his online tourney through the pandemic even tho he is widely disliked by the community on the continent for his absolute dominance making almost no one support him at any tourney he goes to. He really got a lot more distant nowadays bc of Strive but also his inabillity to say anything Melee related only to get torn into pieces while any Strive thing he does seems a lot less toxic. He was one of the only 3 european players who made top 10 on a global ranking and one of the in my opinion 5 hardest melee grinders and a brave guy who is not afraid to speak up even when his opinions aren't the best only to be the most hated player in any bracket. I hope that my comment showed you the other side of Leffen a bit better and while i'm not a fan of him i don't really feel that this mass hate on one person as the seemingly worst thing for smash rn even tho he's been so quiet for the last 3 years is really disheartening. Once again i do not condone the things he did to community member in 13-15 or how treated Hbox for a long time but he really isn't a horrible person that needs to be stopped nowadays and this witch hunting on him doesn't make the community better but rather more split and hatefilled on a largescale. Leffen is no problem to the community on any valid proof for now and while i also feel like there are things he did (for example spreading lies about Zero) we all can't be 100% certain of it and shouldn't keep this guilty until proven innocent mentality you all seem to have in our discourse.
@@lordmew5 They're both as bad but I would give the edge to Nairo for sure. And the fact that most of the community is turning a blind eye for Nairo is quite hypocritical
Best part for me was after Grands when TK and EE are closing out TK just says something like "We're gonna go have some drinks I think we've earned a few after that" lmao.
I think this set is a big part of why smash has the reputation it does in the FGC as a whole, and it sucks to see. They made a joke of a genuinely great scene and I'm glad Ultimate competitors are as serious as it gets on big stages.
Not really, FGC has always been like this. Hell, back then they also hated FrenchBread and ArcSys games as the "Anime Fighter" genre. They coped so hard when you try to bring up 3rd Strike having heavy anime aesthetics.
@@TheTrueBrawler I don't care if he's Jesus Christ reborn mate, his hypothetical true character doesn't matter, only what he actually did. Lima and Zack killed the game with the worst evo final in history, the facts are the facts
@TheTrueBrawler he never showed remorse and made excuses like " I was just having fun with a friend" bro it's the LAST smash 4 evo and you both acted like little kids. When bear told them they had to play or they would be DQ, you can see lima be visibly annoyed and he rolls his eyes. Huge pussy.
@@dougmiles6004 Double Clouds singlehandedly destroyed the format's viewership and participants. It's one of the few things that's ever been banned in Smash, but it was already too late and the format was dead.
Literally done on purpose too They wanted to end the games comp scene to ensure everyone went to ultimate, they didn't want a repeat of melee. Kind of weird that ultimate also got two really OP dlc's in fighter pack 2, I wonder if they are trying to kill the scene again??
The thing is bayo dittos were actually pretty cool for a while since she's one of the few characters that can actually just kill a whiffed witch time, but then the players started to camp, because turns out she's really good at that. And it all didn't just go downhill, it went all the way to the Earth's core
I remember at the time I said "Nothing could make this grand finals any more awkward" in 2018. In terms of tempting fate that turned out to be like saying "I think we're safe now" in a horror movie.
I agree with you. People keep talking about the Sonic Fox chair swap as being the worst inhumane thing that happened and I barely see people outside of Smash community talking about these 2 clowns
Bruh Bayo is the exact fucking same except she can’t kill as easily. We meme about Falco’s cutscene but I don’t see anyone talking about the Bayo cutscenes.
@@Jujuboy0 Nah, the most cursed one was that Grand Final where everyone and the commentators were banned eventually. Something like "[Redacted] defeated [Redacted] at some tournament commentated by [Redacted] and [Redacted]", and it was all just banned players at the top level involved. Basically Smash 4 history that can never be reclaimed because it was all groomers and abusers.
I have never seen a more comatose crowd during any Smash EVO grand finals than in this one lol. Wouldn’t be surprised if this contributed to the many reasons Nintendo told EVO to drop all smash titles from their tournament.
I believe Sony basically bought EVO and were willing to have Smash in tournaments after EVO had been bought, but Nintendo is very old fashioned, like Pepridge Farms old fashioned, and said yeah no we’re gonna host our own tournaments and give shitty prizes instead of actually cash prizes. I believe SF6 is going to a $1M prize for first place and the main event UMVC3 is going to be hype as hell. Where as Nintendo is just giving away sweatshirts and eshop cards.
@@justmikoto9880 Yeah, Evo is so fun to watch. Just wish Smash was still there. But hey, all the more reason to get into traditional fighting games. I wanna be at evo someday.
This is a memory that I wish never happened. I remember I was in the crowd at the start of top 8 and I convinced my friend to stay with me because I wanted to keep watching until Nietono was eliminated, since he was my favorite player in top 8. It just so happened he went on the run of his life that day and gave us all hope that he could have won the tournament. After Zack destroyed him I turned to my friend and said "ok, we can leave now." It just so happened at that very moment that everyone else thought the same thing and more than half the venue left. Then I open the stream while walking back and see that abomination. I really liked smash 4, but Bayo really ruined the game.
There is a reason there’s only like 3-5 Bayo players in smash ultimate. The other bayo realized they couldn’t be carried anymore and had to more thinking power so they quit.
Bayo isn't even bad, she's just not broken like in sm4sh. I did see a bayo in my region switch to steve tho and I'm afraid of seeing this shit happen again.
I gained a bit of respect on Lima for sticking on with the witch. And with the crazy stuff Bloom does with the character, it's actually a bit more fun seeing a good Bayo on stream.
To add some pretext- MVD vs Raito was easily the most hype set of that top 8. MVD was rocking the Diddy Kong, while Raito was our low tier hero on Duck Hunt, an extremely high skill character with little KO power. The set ended up being razor thin, and the crowd was pumped. Had that been grand finals, it would have been a proper celebration of Smash 4, but instead is was a losers eigths match. Fast forward to losers finals. Neitono was on the run of his life, now guaranteed at least third. He'd played Diddy in certain matchups, but chose Sheik for the Bayo matchup. Then he gets absolutely clowned by Captain Zack. It really shows how broken Bayo was as Neitono looked absolutely helpless. The crowd was behind him as our last hope for preventing the Bayo ditto rematch from winners finals, but he got trashed instead. Then, of course, grand finals. Ugh.
And its almost like the reason the American Ultimate scene is leaning into banning Steve now rather than later...is to prevent this exact thing from happening again...in an environment where the troll players could literally spell stuff at the audience in blocks...
I'm not even religious, but this new absolutely broken tech of Steve made me go "HALLELUJA! PRAISE THE LORD!" cause no way in hell does a character stay unbanned that can literally ignore knockback applied to him. Stupid broken a$$ character. Hated this monstrosity from day one
@@ngotemna8875 Steve getting added was one of the best things to ever happen to smash. It brought a ton of attention to the game, and it took almost a year for people to start putting everything together with steve, so seems like you were hating just to hate lmao
@@Parthian6 steve was undoubtedly one of the coolest additions into smash, but the character is so stupidly ridiculously broken its just tragic. he is nearly akin to brawl metaknight. glad hes getting banned competitively
@@notlucas6859 I mean I'm all for a ban if the tech is proven to be a real problem at low and mid level smash (I doubt any top level steves will do it to avoid getting the character banned) but prior to this discovery steve objectively wasnt that broken. Undoubtedly the best character in the game? Sure. Boring to watch? Not as bad as Smash 4 Bayo or Brawl ICs but yeah not great. Results wise Steve has been on a continuous downhill slope ever since Smash Con and it doesnt look like the hitstun cancel tech will stop that. As I said before, my real indicator of whether steve is banworthy is if a significant percentage (like 20-30%) of locals start banning the character due to sheer toxicity and implementation of hitstun cancel at low level being really OP.
Yeah if I was a TO I would have gone “Whoever is not moving in three seconds is DQ’d” the moment that starts happening. Which is what I’m sure the TO that approached said. But honestly, even though it’s what I would have done, I don’t think that’s the right move either. The right move would have been “You two are both DQ’d for unsportsmanlike behavior.“ If the match for the 3rd place had already been run, anticlimactic as it is, that’s your grand champion and runner up. (tbh less anticlimactic than what we got) If it hasn’t been run, hype that match like it’s EVO grand finals (cause it now is)
Smash 4 wasn't...slow, slow. At least, not at the time. It feels a lot slower now that we have Ultimate, though. And, like people playing SFII Turbo then going back to World Warrior later, it feels like a slog in comparison. That goes the other way too. Melee was faster, so if you played it a lot 4 and Brawl felt slower. Ultimate is actually closer to 4 in terms of actual speed, but a lot of changes were made to enhance the feel and speed up the flow of matches.
@[GD] [GD] ??? Did you not see half of the weaker characters in Sm4sh? Most of them received buffs that made them viable in Ultimate Roy, Palutena, Pac-Man, Zelda, Ganondorf, Link and even Shulk all got buffs and look at the tier list of this game
This set, I think, encapsulates why Nintendo keeps so much distance from the competitive scene. Fans, players, personalities, all of them are radioactive. Nintendo knows.
@@defectivesickle5643 It definitely is. Nintendo cares about keeping it family friendly and don't want to be associated with something even slightly vulgar
They were hostile to competitive play way before Smash 4. No one but Nintendo can say for certain why Nintendo is hostile but this definitely reinforced their stance.
If dlc never happened, smash 4 would've been more fondly remembered/have had a longer lifespan. The amount of bs that came with Ryu and Cloud and esp Bayo...
I remember zack ranting on Twitter on a twitlong saying something like "they nerfed my character to oblivion in ult" Wasn't YOUR set the reason why the dev team probably nerfed bayo harder in ult than she should've have been LMAO
I would’ve been fine if they did this at a local or something a bit bigger, but they did this at Evo one of, if not, the biggest tournament for smash in Grand finals and they werent at all serious.
Legit, if one of them just picked a different character for the last game and then looked toward the crowd with determination and WON. They would be the greatest hero to ever grace the competitive scene of esports. But sadly, they both were complete tools.
This really takes me back. Reminds me how toxic the Smash 4 community was. Not even just Bayo players, I mean the entire community. Unfortunately I think Smash 4 by its very design kinda breeded that kind of community. It was a game that was entirely about the rage mechanic and jank and boy did it make people salty on a daily basis. And then they added Bayonetta to the game and made everything 100x worse.
Just saying, I've been around a lot of communities online, I'd say most fgc in general is really toxic, not just smash. It's not Rust levels of toxic, but maybe around dbd or LoL levels of toxic?
It's impressive that even years later, watching this set still makes me incredibly uncomfortable. Kinda "second hand embarrassment" only a bit worse because god. How can you do that at a big tournament? It's just so painful.
TO should have walked up and DQ'd both players IMO. Solution would have been to have a single elimination BO7 between 3rd and 4th place for tournament champion.
It's insane to think there are genuinely people in the community now who didn't know about this or remember this. It happened barely even 5 years ago 😭 I was beyond pissed that these two made it to grands bro, spat on EVO and one of Smash 4's last major tournaments
Zack was the culmination of everything wrong with the competitive scene, which made it all the more satisfying when pre-drunk Elegant put him in his place.
It's so sad that Sm4sh could've been so much more if they had done just *one* more patch to balance out Bayo. One of my favorite games of all time killed by a DLC character.
And let's not forget - the two competitors here were eventually permabanned, one for sexual harassment (for which he was considered the victim for a long time, quite the con artist) and the other for racism. Neither of them was sanctioned for this clearly staged stalling tactic.
Some of my friends, who are also Bayo mains, absolutely loved the game 1 stall (Most likely because of the hate Bayo is getting during the entire top 8). Meanwhile, I was just awkwardly laughing along. This was a LOOOOOOOONG top 8.
You guys remember why they did stalled though? The Smash community was so toxic they harassed Bayo players simply because they played Bayo. Was it wrong for Lima and Zack to stall? Yes. But do I understand why Grnad Finals culminated they way it did and they they chose to rebel? Absolutely. The toxicity of the Smash community brought it upon themselves. There's even a really good documentary by Score Esports that showcases this.
If you don't count Evo Japan 2018, all Smash 4 Evo Champions got banned from the Smash scene. Smash 4 was truly the darkest timeline...can't believe PM died for this still.
I always loved Sm4sh. It always felt like every character had some form of broken cheese they could use. I'll never forget Ryu & Clouds' addition to the game. But I stopped playing before Bayo.... God, this is how dead brained it was in the end....
I played a CPU game of Sm4sh recently and my immediate thought was “dear god how did I ever grind this game.” It’s SO SLOW and the movement is janky af.
Loved 4 so much compared to ultimate. Went back to it and even though it took a moment to get back into the swing of things I was having far more fun. Hate how the scene killed the game instead of putting on their big boy pants and do something like banning Bayo or allowing certain rule changes
And now we're seeing it again in ultimate with Steve. In smash 4 bayo had a 50 50 when landing with witch tine where you died or took mad damage for swinging at her in the air and now we have steve who combos you to 100 for hitting him mid air. We should've banned bayo sooner before it killed 4 and now we get to watch steve kill ult
Just my opinion, but I honestly think this was the worst Smash game hands down. Every other Smash game I could actually have fun to some degree. This game was just not fun casually or competitively.
Hard agree. The mere fact that the game had to be played with 2 stocks, which barely even worked considering Bayo combos and rage cheese, but could not reasonably be raised any higher in spite of the bullshit because so many matchups were so glacial by comparison, speaks volumes about its competitive merit to me. Tbf I mostly play Melee and P+, tho, so maybe I just don't possess the 300 IQ space brain required to appreciate Smash 4 in spite of its laundry list of faults.
@@kong732ify I was also a Melee and P+ player, but I could still play Brawl and 64 casually with friends that didn't do competitive(before Ultimate released) and I could still have fun doing goofy stuff. Smash 4 was just objectively bad. Ultimate was what Smash 4 should have been and I'm glad that the latter is now a dead game.
@@revelation2-9 sm4sh was definitely the worst in the smash series. all the others were great for their time, brawl is the only one to me with enjoyable singleplayer content.
@@notlucas6859 Brawl Sub-space Emissary was pretty based content. Even the occasional casual games with my non-competitive friends could be pretty funny. Ultimate solved that however.
I used to absolutely love Smash 4, was really fun until Bayo released :\. Sad to see the state the competitive scene is today, even if it is a slower paced smash bros
Zack was One of the worst thing to happen to smash
Actually true,for when you also plus the nairo situation…
fr. that guy straight up ruined various people's lives and/or mental health
@Davrk
Wait, what the heck did he even do?
@@worldscoolestperson7672 raped older men in their sleep.
@@worldscoolestperson7672 Zack sucked off Nairo while he was asleep and blackmailed him since he was underaged at the time
The two greatest things to happen in that Grands:
1. When it ended
2. When Coney appeared
Coney is a gift to the Smash community
Coney good.
we love Coney
aren't those technically out of order?
The commentators holding that together and being able to keep going is honestly godlike.
thats EE magic right there
They're professionals, it's their job unfortunately. I know if I was in their place I would be very tempted to talk shit on the state of the game.
I still remember Coney mentioning he finally lost his cool during a set with Bayo he commentated.
“I don’t know, I was stalling for time” should be viewed as one of the best commentary moments of all time.
That’s the black plague for ya always good duo
captainzack may have been the worst personality in smash history
ain't no may have been about it
Leffen is still on public and we keep learning weird stuff now & then, so that may change. (But I doubt he'll do one day something as wrong as Zack)
@@Kaxuria Leffen a close second imo
@@niceikey leffens an asshole but he’s never done anything truly dispicable - unlike some others. but idk who zack is and what he did so idk
@@Kaxuria not to defend Leffen for the mass of bullying he put people under in 2013-2015 but y'all are interpretating everything he does as some kind of malicous egoistic attempt.
He generally means well to the scene but is pretty bad at communicating that because he always attacks things to get smth. moving.
Also Leffen never did actual proofable things to get him banned after his 1 year ban.
You can say his attitude towards Juan wasn't great online but it was just two very unlikeable guys getting at each other and now they can basically go to an amusement parc.
We need to stop painting pictures of people and putting them into character boxes or how do you think Leffen will improve when atleast 50 people per day DM him that he is a piece of sh.?
Our community is so toxic already but the whole stretch of holding players accountable that started with the video Hax$ made in a drunken state of schizophrenia made us selfdestructive.
Thanks to Hax$ and mostly Technicals we have the worst publicity besides the allegation summer.
And while some things Tech said are probally really valid the way he always tried to make all TOs look like malicous gatekeepers of a monopoly and ped0defenders has been so messed up.
I can tell you with a lot of shame but honesty that i believed a lot of things that in retrospective are just lies and rumors spread by him to further damage the scene.
My main point still being: stop putting people into boxes or roles and try to see every person for the actions they have taken in the past and present.
Leffen really tried to be a good influence on Melee for the last years by constantly trying to motivate EU to give a damn about competition and even held his online tourney through the pandemic even tho he is widely disliked by the community on the continent for his absolute dominance making almost no one support him at any tourney he goes to.
He really got a lot more distant nowadays bc of Strive but also his inabillity to say anything Melee related only to get torn into pieces while any Strive thing he does seems a lot less toxic.
He was one of the only 3 european players who made top 10 on a global ranking and one of the in my opinion 5 hardest melee grinders and a brave guy who is not afraid to speak up even when his opinions aren't the best only to be the most hated player in any bracket.
I hope that my comment showed you the other side of Leffen a bit better and while i'm not a fan of him i don't really feel that this mass hate on one person as the seemingly worst thing for smash rn even tho he's been so quiet for the last 3 years is really disheartening.
Once again i do not condone the things he did to community member in 13-15 or how treated Hbox for a long time but he really isn't a horrible person that needs to be stopped nowadays and this witch hunting on him doesn't make the community better but rather more split and hatefilled on a largescale.
Leffen is no problem to the community on any valid proof for now and while i also feel like there are things he did (for example spreading lies about Zero) we all can't be 100% certain of it and shouldn't keep this guilty until proven innocent mentality you all seem to have in our discourse.
Zack for sure was one of the worst things in the entire smash scene
Not worse than Smash Brawl and Smash 4 lmao
Nairo might say otherwise
@@Eldoofus Brawl is peak tf you on about lmao + CaptainZack is a horrible person
@@lordmew5 They're both as bad but I would give the edge to Nairo for sure. And the fact that most of the community is turning a blind eye for Nairo is quite hypocritical
Agree
Props to those commentators for trying to keep it exciting.
CaptainZack was truly one of the worst people to ever touch the smash scene
literally touch
@@Roy5556 bro 💀
why do ppl hate zach so much??
@@Hakeem9495 Besides this set? The Nairo Incident. And the fact he did the exact same thing he did to Nairo to someone in the Pokemon community.
@@Hakeem9495 Sexual Assault and Blackmail mostly iirc
Of all the things we left behind with Smash 4, I'm most grateful that Captain Zack was one of them
Untrue tho because then he stirred up massive controversy in Ultimate lol
@@LHSMeleeClub He ain't around anymore though, so close enough 👍
@@NikoJr. 😂😂😂😂😂
@@NikoJr. Yeah but that happened like 2 years after the game came out lol, Ally was out here playing Snake for a minute
@@andrew3606 Get out of here with your facts 😤
Imagine getting 3rd place and watching this set
I'd just be glad I wasnt having to play against it. Bayo was a cancer to smash 4
@@dennisreynolds1503 You are not getting 3rd at EVO 2018 without beating several Bayos.
@@Zippybobjoe very true. You've run the bayo gauntlet at that stage if you're 3rd.
I like how this comment section doesn’t describe Zack as human, just “the worst _thing_ in the smash community” 😂
Correct
Because he is barely a person
The Wii U is more human then, and the Wii U is literally *alien* tech with that GamePad
He's not a human, he's like a shitty AI generated character...
Exactly
Best part for me was after Grands when TK and EE are closing out TK just says something like "We're gonna go have some drinks I think we've earned a few after that" lmao.
I think this set is a big part of why smash has the reputation it does in the FGC as a whole, and it sucks to see. They made a joke of a genuinely great scene and I'm glad Ultimate competitors are as serious as it gets on big stages.
Yep. Also no smash 4 bayo
tbh i think its mostly seen as it is because of the type of game it is compared to the rest of the games seen at evo.
I think Steve is cool but banning him after finding that tech we just found probably will help us to prevent something like this from happening again
Not really, FGC has always been like this. Hell, back then they also hated FrenchBread and ArcSys games as the "Anime Fighter" genre. They coped so hard when you try to bring up 3rd Strike having heavy anime aesthetics.
good thing steve gets banned before we ser this again
The second they did the 2 minute stall they should of escorted both of them out, and allowed 3rd and 4th place to play finals.
I would have been ok with that.
should have
Absolutely agreeing with that!
*Should have
Absolutely!
Man HBox is not pulling any punches. Puts Lima and Zack right on the thumbnail to say “Yeah, you killed the game”
Not like anyone gonna disagree
@@thexenosaiyan I will. Lima was an alright human being.
@@TheTrueBrawler I don't care if he's Jesus Christ reborn mate, his hypothetical true character doesn't matter, only what he actually did. Lima and Zack killed the game with the worst evo final in history, the facts are the facts
@TheTrueBrawler he never showed remorse and made excuses like " I was just having fun with a friend" bro it's the LAST smash 4 evo and you both acted like little kids. When bear told them they had to play or they would be DQ, you can see lima be visibly annoyed and he rolls his eyes. Huge pussy.
@@thexenosaiyan tbh I would do the same if I was in his place, with a community as toxic as the smash one.
Wherever Zack is right now, I hope he’s in a lot of pain and struggling financially
Humans can change... if he is one
@@Cristeve only thing he can change is into a straight jacket
Man the Bayonetta & Cloud DLC was a real 1 2 punch to competitive Smash 4
Cloud was really good but you could deal with him. Bayo was just stupid.
Cloud was dominant, yes, but at least had true counterplay. You could challenge Cloud, you could only mitigate Bayo.
The thing with Cloud is that he was a top character no doubt, but he was still playing the same game as everyone else. Bayo was playing her own game.
@@dougmiles6004 Double Clouds singlehandedly destroyed the format's viewership and participants. It's one of the few things that's ever been banned in Smash, but it was already too late and the format was dead.
Literally done on purpose too
They wanted to end the games comp scene to ensure everyone went to ultimate, they didn't want a repeat of melee. Kind of weird that ultimate also got two really OP dlc's in fighter pack 2, I wonder if they are trying to kill the scene again??
The worst part is that they were both enjoying themselves and thinking they were acting so cool during that moment.
Coney’s the true content fiend, went for the interview during grands
Best commentator
The content goblin appears
Dr.Robotnik theme plays*
The thing is bayo dittos were actually pretty cool for a while since she's one of the few characters that can actually just kill a whiffed witch time, but then the players started to camp, because turns out she's really good at that.
And it all didn't just go downhill, it went all the way to the Earth's core
I remember at the time I said "Nothing could make this grand finals any more awkward" in 2018.
In terms of tempting fate that turned out to be like saying "I think we're safe now" in a horror movie.
I agree with you. People keep talking about the Sonic Fox chair swap as being the worst inhumane thing that happened and I barely see people outside of Smash community talking about these 2 clowns
captain zack will always be cringe
he is the worst thing to ever happen to smash
@@dhruvmehta666 Leffen?
Fr rapist a cringe
@@emperornefarious5273 Zack worse than leffen imo
@@emperornefarious5273 leffen is a GREAT thing for smash, are you kidding?
Glad ultimate made bayo fair and we got rid of zack
Bayo is kinda hype now, the way she was supposed to be
@@mrjollyguy25 i love a good bayo combo in ultimate. Lima and bloom are so fun to watch
Bruh Bayo is the exact fucking same except she can’t kill as easily. We meme about Falco’s cutscene but I don’t see anyone talking about the Bayo cutscenes.
@infinityHeart_TM Bayo isn't even top 10 in this game, prob not even top 20 💀
@@mrjollyguy25 She’s the same in terms of hype.
The most cursed set I’ve seen in sma4sh.
In all of smash tbh
@@Jujuboy0 Nah, the most cursed one was that Grand Final where everyone and the commentators were banned eventually. Something like "[Redacted] defeated [Redacted] at some tournament commentated by [Redacted] and [Redacted]", and it was all just banned players at the top level involved. Basically Smash 4 history that can never be reclaimed because it was all groomers and abusers.
@@DaleRojoDecaf Yeah I completely agree. Those sets wich were just whatever are now someof the most cring and cursed sets on youtube.
"This right here is....As a...as a....a competitive smash player.." takes a swig of beer
bruh, that enough said it all.
I have never seen a more comatose crowd during any Smash EVO grand finals than in this one lol. Wouldn’t be surprised if this contributed to the many reasons Nintendo told EVO to drop all smash titles from their tournament.
ultimate at evo was fantastic, i think its just the sony connection
Probably not bc 2019 was a fuking amazing event that didn't have any controversy afaik.
I believe Sony basically bought EVO and were willing to have Smash in tournaments after EVO had been bought, but Nintendo is very old fashioned, like Pepridge Farms old fashioned, and said yeah no we’re gonna host our own tournaments and give shitty prizes instead of actually cash prizes. I believe SF6 is going to a $1M prize for first place and the main event UMVC3 is going to be hype as hell. Where as Nintendo is just giving away sweatshirts and eshop cards.
@@justmikoto9880 Yeah, Evo is so fun to watch. Just wish Smash was still there. But hey, all the more reason to get into traditional fighting games. I wanna be at evo someday.
@@justmikoto9880 Street Fighter 1 million is for the Capcom Cup, I dont think the evo event will come close to it
This is a memory that I wish never happened. I remember I was in the crowd at the start of top 8 and I convinced my friend to stay with me because I wanted to keep watching until Nietono was eliminated, since he was my favorite player in top 8. It just so happened he went on the run of his life that day and gave us all hope that he could have won the tournament. After Zack destroyed him I turned to my friend and said "ok, we can leave now." It just so happened at that very moment that everyone else thought the same thing and more than half the venue left. Then I open the stream while walking back and see that abomination. I really liked smash 4, but Bayo really ruined the game.
There is a reason there’s only like 3-5 Bayo players in smash ultimate. The other bayo realized they couldn’t be carried anymore and had to more thinking power so they quit.
Only the true fans stayed with her
Bayo isn't even bad, she's just not broken like in sm4sh. I did see a bayo in my region switch to steve tho and I'm afraid of seeing this shit happen again.
I gained a bit of respect on Lima for sticking on with the witch. And with the crazy stuff Bloom does with the character, it's actually a bit more fun seeing a good Bayo on stream.
Almost none of her players did good either
The only bayo player I can think of that did good in Ultimate was Salem, but even he doesn't play anymore
@@rebrapcoI feel MuteAce has done better than Salem.
i love how the only crowd noises you really hear during the set come directly from the game itself
To add some pretext-
MVD vs Raito was easily the most hype set of that top 8. MVD was rocking the Diddy Kong, while Raito was our low tier hero on Duck Hunt, an extremely high skill character with little KO power. The set ended up being razor thin, and the crowd was pumped. Had that been grand finals, it would have been a proper celebration of Smash 4, but instead is was a losers eigths match.
Fast forward to losers finals. Neitono was on the run of his life, now guaranteed at least third. He'd played Diddy in certain matchups, but chose Sheik for the Bayo matchup. Then he gets absolutely clowned by Captain Zack. It really shows how broken Bayo was as Neitono looked absolutely helpless. The crowd was behind him as our last hope for preventing the Bayo ditto rematch from winners finals, but he got trashed instead.
Then, of course, grand finals. Ugh.
And its almost like the reason the American Ultimate scene is leaning into banning Steve now rather than later...is to prevent this exact thing from happening again...in an environment where the troll players could literally spell stuff at the audience in blocks...
Thank you
I'm not even religious, but this new absolutely broken tech of Steve made me go "HALLELUJA! PRAISE THE LORD!" cause no way in hell does a character stay unbanned that can literally ignore knockback applied to him.
Stupid broken a$$ character. Hated this monstrosity from day one
@@ngotemna8875 Steve getting added was one of the best things to ever happen to smash. It brought a ton of attention to the game, and it took almost a year for people to start putting everything together with steve, so seems like you were hating just to hate lmao
@@Parthian6 steve was undoubtedly one of the coolest additions into smash, but the character is so stupidly ridiculously broken its just tragic. he is nearly akin to brawl metaknight. glad hes getting banned competitively
@@notlucas6859 I mean I'm all for a ban if the tech is proven to be a real problem at low and mid level smash (I doubt any top level steves will do it to avoid getting the character banned) but prior to this discovery steve objectively wasnt that broken. Undoubtedly the best character in the game? Sure. Boring to watch? Not as bad as Smash 4 Bayo or Brawl ICs but yeah not great. Results wise Steve has been on a continuous downhill slope ever since Smash Con and it doesnt look like the hitstun cancel tech will stop that. As I said before, my real indicator of whether steve is banworthy is if a significant percentage (like 20-30%) of locals start banning the character due to sheer toxicity and implementation of hitstun cancel at low level being really OP.
Heard captain Zack is extra friendly in hotel rooms
LMAO
FOR FREE
@@georgefloyd9262 LMFAO
You fucking madlad
Yeah if I was a TO I would have gone “Whoever is not moving in three seconds is DQ’d” the moment that starts happening. Which is what I’m sure the TO that approached said.
But honestly, even though it’s what I would have done, I don’t think that’s the right move either. The right move would have been “You two are both DQ’d for unsportsmanlike behavior.“
If the match for the 3rd place had already been run, anticlimactic as it is, that’s your grand champion and runner up. (tbh less anticlimactic than what we got) If it hasn’t been run, hype that match like it’s EVO grand finals (cause it now is)
Crazy that Hungrybox had a crab thrown at him but no one threw anything during this shit
DUDE, you're onto something, omg.
They should of thrown sea urchins instead of crabs /j
Mightykeef's skit on this Smash 4 Grand Finals is one my favorites in his entire backlog.
Honestly I always hated smash 4. Before it I played Melee and it always felt way to slow in comparison. As soon as Ultimate came out it felt perfect.
I suppose brawl was so bad it came out the other end and became enjoyable again
Smash 4 wasn't...slow, slow. At least, not at the time.
It feels a lot slower now that we have Ultimate, though. And, like people playing SFII Turbo then going back to World Warrior later, it feels like a slog in comparison.
That goes the other way too. Melee was faster, so if you played it a lot 4 and Brawl felt slower.
Ultimate is actually closer to 4 in terms of actual speed, but a lot of changes were made to enhance the feel and speed up the flow of matches.
@@someeejit brawl makes up for being shit by having an amazing story mode. 4 just has some classic mode bs
Low key I think I like 4 more then ult
@[GD] [GD] ??? Did you not see half of the weaker characters in Sm4sh? Most of them received buffs that made them viable in Ultimate Roy, Palutena, Pac-Man, Zelda, Ganondorf, Link and even Shulk all got buffs and look at the tier list of this game
There was no saving that set, if anything its sad that the talents of EE and TK were there for this atrocity. 😔
This set, I think, encapsulates why Nintendo keeps so much distance from the competitive scene. Fans, players, personalities, all of them are radioactive. Nintendo knows.
No shot it's for moral reasons
Indeed, and one of the reasons why I quit
@@defectivesickle5643 It definitely is. Nintendo cares about keeping it family friendly and don't want to be associated with something even slightly vulgar
@@jstar3382 but only because they believe their bottom line would be effected in sales.
They were hostile to competitive play way before Smash 4. No one but Nintendo can say for certain why Nintendo is hostile but this definitely reinforced their stance.
Those commentators are bigger people than I will ever be. That’s the day I get banned from commentating events
As an Ultimate head, I never understood why smash isn't at Evo anymore.... it now feels very justified
That year we missed Mkleo, "The Witch Slayer" so much.
It would’ve been a cool storyline for Lima, an up and coming player, winning the biggest tournament in smash 4. But nope had to ruin it
If dlc never happened, smash 4 would've been more fondly remembered/have had a longer lifespan. The amount of bs that came with Ryu and Cloud and esp Bayo...
I remember zack ranting on Twitter on a twitlong saying something like "they nerfed my character to oblivion in ult"
Wasn't YOUR set the reason why the dev team probably nerfed bayo harder in ult than she should've have been LMAO
When they both were stalling I thought it was funny how committed they were
I would’ve been fine if they did this at a local or something a bit bigger, but they did this at Evo one of, if not, the biggest tournament for smash in Grand finals and they werent at all serious.
Legit, if one of them just picked a different character for the last game and then looked toward the crowd with determination and WON. They would be the greatest hero to ever grace the competitive scene of esports. But sadly, they both were complete tools.
This really takes me back. Reminds me how toxic the Smash 4 community was. Not even just Bayo players, I mean the entire community. Unfortunately I think Smash 4 by its very design kinda breeded that kind of community. It was a game that was entirely about the rage mechanic and jank and boy did it make people salty on a daily basis. And then they added Bayonetta to the game and made everything 100x worse.
So many other toxic fgcs. Melee we just don’t remember because they didn’t stream every freakin tourney. Even locals
@@Firenmage433 Melee has a super toxic scene, it's just normalized
Just saying, I've been around a lot of communities online, I'd say most fgc in general is really toxic, not just smash. It's not Rust levels of toxic, but maybe around dbd or LoL levels of toxic?
@@Rendorina
I, by no means, was implying other communities aren't toxic. Cause there are absolutely other toxic communities out there lol.
If you think smash 4 was about jank and toxicity you havent been to an ultimate tournament lmao
I’ve never seen HBox drink and this seems like the prefect time to start while watching this set
in evo too, seeing the evo logo next to this is painful
Bayonetta.
That's when it died
This is why banning steve is great, we wont have a chance to experience this all over again
It's impressive that even years later, watching this set still makes me incredibly uncomfortable. Kinda "second hand embarrassment" only a bit worse because god. How can you do that at a big tournament? It's just so painful.
The commentators were trying so hard to keep things interesting. They’re the hero’s in this story
TO should have walked up and DQ'd both players IMO.
Solution would have been to have a single elimination BO7 between 3rd and 4th place for tournament champion.
Smash4 would have been so much better without Cloud and Bayo.
Or at least if it got properly patched more.
'i killed this game call me captainzack' - smash cypher 2018
one of the hardest lines ever
I play against Lima at the shockwave weekly sometimes and it’s crazy to me that I play an evo champ at my local
considering the circumstances, it’s not exactly much of a flex
@@Lunarbell1 He is still the world's best Ult Bayo, which is something.
@@Jackaljkljkl For sure, he’s still a very goated player, but that evo finals is something most people just want to forget
It's insane to think there are genuinely people in the community now who didn't know about this or remember this. It happened barely even 5 years ago 😭 I was beyond pissed that these two made it to grands bro, spat on EVO and one of Smash 4's last major tournaments
Zack was the culmination of everything wrong with the competitive scene, which made it all the more satisfying when pre-drunk Elegant put him in his place.
It's so sad that Sm4sh could've been so much more if they had done just *one* more patch to balance out Bayo. One of my favorite games of all time killed by a DLC character.
I didn't really liked the game even without Bayo, what did you like in particular in Smash 4 ?
@Desoxy I liked the feel of it? It wasn't a bad game until cloud, bayo and corrin came out broken
@@Tabarnacification Okok I see thank you :)
@@Tabarnacification corrin wasn’t broken? Were they? I don’t really remember the character viabality of sm4sh besides the obvious ones
@@iswiftyfox8997 Eh, Corrin's really good but I wouldn't say he's "broken."
I remember taking a plane home and my friends texted me saying thank god you weren't there because it was insane they were there watching the madness
And let's not forget - the two competitors here were eventually permabanned, one for sexual harassment (for which he was considered the victim for a long time, quite the con artist) and the other for racism. Neither of them was sanctioned for this clearly staged stalling tactic.
Lima still plays
@@DairInNeutral just perma-shunned
Lima still goes to majors/invitationals lol
What did Lima do I thought he still competed
What’d Lima do again?
The worst part is they definitely planned that neither of them started with Neutral B any other match with one another.
I'm pretty glad i played smash 4 more casually.
Some of my friends, who are also Bayo mains, absolutely loved the game 1 stall (Most likely because of the hate Bayo is getting during the entire top 8). Meanwhile, I was just awkwardly laughing along. This was a LOOOOOOOONG top 8.
I feel like stalling and teasing fits the personality of Bayonetta which is why I can't do anything but laugh at this game.
There's nothing I despise more than people with the mindset
"Let's take the fun away and annoy everyone fOr Da Lulz"
@@ngotemna8875 Well..Then maybe the Smash 4 community shouldn't of harassed Bayo players ruining their fun at tournaments..
You can't blame the game for that, 100% on the two players.
nah the game def was lame
@@pulse3290 the players were exponentially more lame though
@@IckyStickyRicky123 true
You guys remember why they did stalled though? The Smash community was so toxic they harassed Bayo players simply because they played Bayo.
Was it wrong for Lima and Zack to stall? Yes. But do I understand why Grnad Finals culminated they way it did and they they chose to rebel? Absolutely. The toxicity of the Smash community brought it upon themselves.
There's even a really good documentary by Score Esports that showcases this.
@@serehero4722 i knew somebody would try to make some bs excuses
And next year we had one of the best, and the last (so far) Smash Evo moments in history.
Bear should’ve let them stall out the match, then just DQ both of them out of the tournament. That would’ve been an even more legendary ending
Kinda crazy how many of the problems in the Smash community within the last decade trace back to CaptainZack
fun fact me and TK took shots before during and after this set
you're a strong man E I woulda been droppin slurs on the Mic no cap
We need a Steve version of the “2 Bayos pointing their guns at each other”
Literally every beginning 10 seconds in the Steve ditto is playing "mine the diamond"
We've long passed 2 bayos pointing their guns at each other
Both just mine. Same button too.
Is there one where melee Fox lasers each other until timeout?
@@sharkronical
No because Melee players have respect for each other in a game
I don't even like Melee but this is a fact
@@sharkronical Look up “Michael vs Bananas” it’s not fox lasers but it’s essentially the melee equivalent of this
The fact that they both were stalling the match for almost a full minute should've been grounds for DQ'ing both of them
If you don't count Evo Japan 2018, all Smash 4 Evo Champions got banned from the Smash scene.
Smash 4 was truly the darkest timeline...can't believe PM died for this still.
Lima isn’t banned as far as I remember but yeah a lot of them did get banned
@@SHR7778 He was banned for racist comments, but is back now.
This is what kind of publicity Nintendo gets for making tier S+ DLC and stop dev support
This is surprisingly only the second worst thing Zack has done
Sakurai saw this and started working overtime to get Ult out as soon as possible to kill smash 4
If Smash Ultimate was still at EVO, we might have seen this same scenario play out, but with Minecraft Steve.
I don’t think so because the top players actually use a diverse set of characters
@@dylanthebroadcaster That and the new broken Steve tech is seeing him get banned all across the competitive Smash scene.
When was the last time you saw more than 1 steve in a major top 8. Acola just got 3rd at a Japan Supermajor and he FARMS Japan
Interestingly, both of these players would go on to be banned at some point, though for different amounts of time and for different reasons
I always loved Sm4sh. It always felt like every character had some form of broken cheese they could use. I'll never forget Ryu & Clouds' addition to the game. But I stopped playing before Bayo.... God, this is how dead brained it was in the end....
I actually had this erased from my memory till now. Thanks you for reminding me.
Props to the commentators for managing to keep that slogfest going
When did Smash 4 die? The answer: Capt. Zack's birth
I played a CPU game of Sm4sh recently and my immediate thought was “dear god how did I ever grind this game.” It’s SO SLOW and the movement is janky af.
DQ them both and give it to the next players in line. This was sooo painful.
When hungrybox says he's physically ill from the stall you know you stalled too much
Even Justin Wong would be sick watching this 😂
Loved 4 so much compared to ultimate. Went back to it and even though it took a moment to get back into the swing of things I was having far more fun. Hate how the scene killed the game instead of putting on their big boy pants and do something like banning Bayo or allowing certain rule changes
This is why I’m glad Steve is being banned. So that the ultimate scene doesn’t get killed off in the same way
To this day people to this day deny that smash 4 is pay to win. Let that sink in.
And now we're seeing it again in ultimate with Steve. In smash 4 bayo had a 50 50 when landing with witch tine where you died or took mad damage for swinging at her in the air and now we have steve who combos you to 100 for hitting him mid air. We should've banned bayo sooner before it killed 4 and now we get to watch steve kill ult
This is honestly so sickening to watch
Zach looks like he was trying to get his opponent to come to his room after. Prob did tho.
Bayo so bad I was skipping through this video too.
That hbox stare during the gun standoff is gonna be a great reaction gif
Just my opinion, but I honestly think this was the worst Smash game hands down. Every other Smash game I could actually have fun to some degree. This game was just not fun casually or competitively.
Hard agree. The mere fact that the game had to be played with 2 stocks, which barely even worked considering Bayo combos and rage cheese, but could not reasonably be raised any higher in spite of the bullshit because so many matchups were so glacial by comparison, speaks volumes about its competitive merit to me.
Tbf I mostly play Melee and P+, tho, so maybe I just don't possess the 300 IQ space brain required to appreciate Smash 4 in spite of its laundry list of faults.
@@kong732ify I was also a Melee and P+ player, but I could still play Brawl and 64 casually with friends that didn't do competitive(before Ultimate released) and I could still have fun doing goofy stuff. Smash 4 was just objectively bad. Ultimate was what Smash 4 should have been and I'm glad that the latter is now a dead game.
@@ozmond Yes, and the fact that Smash 4 stands out as particularly bad to so many people in spite of that is an even worse look
@@revelation2-9 sm4sh was definitely the worst in the smash series. all the others were great for their time, brawl is the only one to me with enjoyable singleplayer content.
@@notlucas6859 Brawl Sub-space Emissary was pretty based content. Even the occasional casual games with my non-competitive friends could be pretty funny. Ultimate solved that however.
You can hear the booing in the background and it gives me hope
I used to absolutely love Smash 4, was really fun until Bayo released :\. Sad to see the state the competitive scene is today, even if it is a slower paced smash bros
what state? ultimate is doing fine, it’s basically the same scene
There is a sm4sh scene still? I didn’t know
I'd love to check out a smash 4 scene if it still exists
@Jom Jim idk what tf this comment is trying to say but i feel like you’re taking this a bit too seriously
7:48 imagine being bothered that somebody told you "play the game" in tournament
Imagine if this had been a Ganondorf or Bowser ditto match. It would have been C R A Z Y.
Bayo's alt colors are so close to each other I can't tell them apart. So it's even worse for me, two identical people fighting each other
Wii music goes hard