This is so true that this being a top comment is becoming cliché lol dude's a legend. In the us, especially, where all the coverage is pretty sparse and mostly behind streaming pay walls.
ODD MAN RUSH IS THE BEST HOCKEY TH-camR! SHANNON IS JUST THE MOST PROLIFIC!... See what I did tharharhar?... I even managed to be completely unoriginal just like most yammering TH-cam/Twitter combatants, I almost literally just copy-pasted their names over "Lemieux" and "Gretzky" in the classic "Penguins fan" response to the "greatest player" debate... (In all seriousness, though, I love both channels. The only reason I'm not subscribed to this one is because my subscription page is already an unbearable mess mostly because of two channels I follow that post more-or-less daily, and another that posts on alternating days. Adding a channel that posts several times a day would make it impossible to sort through.)
@@WaddickLawnCare OK. A) That's incalculable to me. I've always kept my sub feed small, and except for those three I mentioned, they drop vids between once a month and once a week, including livestreams. B) How many of those do you actually watch in a day? C) Do you have the kind of job where you can get away with watching TH-cam while pretending to work? Because I don't. Not even close.
I just got into hockey this season after years of being hesitant to do so because there was just so much I did not know. This channel has helped me so much get up to speed on everything and by end of season now, I really feel like I understand the pulse of the league. Thank you!!
It’s always interesting, because some players who play for YEARS below what their original predictions were can find success in different roles. Changing teams, play styles, you name it. One good example I can think of is what Nichushkin has been able to do with Colorado after most saw him as a failed first rounder in Dallas
great example. didnt work out with us in dallas, glad hes found a role with the avs. Funny enough how our team plays now vs when he was drafted he would fit alot better now
Or Campbell, who was a failed first rounder in Dallas, and then a backup in LA, but became a starter in Toronto. Or Marchment, who was a fringe player in Toronto, but has become a solid NHLer in Florida.
Love these discussion videos, always interesting to hear your insights on hockey topics outside of team videos. Could you make a video on the odds of teams like the Canucks or Islanders making the playoffs and maybe some examples of if it's ever happened before in history that a team has been really far under and somehow snuck into the playoffs after a hot streak? Keep working hard, love the videos.
From my memory, the 14-15 Senators are the best example of a team who had slim to none odds sneaking into the playoffs. They went from 22-23-10 to 43-26-13, effectively going on a 21-3-3 run. That same year the Kings also went on something like an 8 game winning streak just to barely fall short of making it. 05-06 Devils went on an 11 game winning streak to win the division (they won the tie breaker against philly) and before the streak were out of the playoffs. Last one that come to my mind are the 18-19 Blue Jackets who won 7 of their last 8 to finish 2 points ahead of MTL.
When I think of "choked", I think of a team where the pressure is clearly getting to them, and it's affecting how they would normally play. For example, Marner shooting the puck over the glass multiple times, causing many playoff penalties. He was very scared to get hit, despite having a lot of time to aim that clear. Or I think of a team that is just making lots of stupid mistakes at critical times in the game and collapsing after getting scored on rather than brushing it off and sticking to the gameplan. However, I don't think Matthews having low scoring is a choke because Danault really is that good at shutting down top players, and he did it all playoffs. In this case, I'd say the depth on Toronto was just not good enough to overcome this, and missing Tavares and having the lines all screwed up and having too many rookies without NHL experience playing on those lines was the real factor in them losing. I'd also put a lot blame on Keefe for not adjusting well.
@@Just_a_Man780 It's pretty easy to imagine how that would have changed things though - Toronto was getting their asses handed them in the face-off circle and they only needed 1 goal in games 5 or 6. He was a point per game player and one of the best at taking face-offs in the entire NHL. Even in this season, he is #7 in faceoff wins and has the 2nd best face-off percentage in the entire league. He was also on the top player play unit. On top of this, the bottom 3 lines all got changed around as a result, which meant an injured Foligno or Spezza or Kerfoot had to play 2nd line center, which basically mean the bottom 2 lines were screwed and unpracticed. Make no mistake, it IS Toronto's fault for not solving this depth problem, but it would have been less of an issue if Tavares was there. Notice that Toronto has 6 centers and 8 defensemen and better scoring depth this season. Dubas learned.
You are the future Hockey Guy. I don't agree with everything you say, but heck, your coverage is above and beyond the mainstream money pits that promote one narrative over another. Saying this, Go leaf Go!
I know a guy who got fired on his first day: underground miner (operator); got lost, twice, on his first shift and ignored every safety regulation you can think of trying to get himself back to the surface. Sometimes the boss can tell that you're not in the right place.
Now that one makes sense Phillip. Anyone in St Louis remembers though when we acquired Pronger for Shanahan the people were in revolt for years. Chris got pretty damn good I think we did okay there. What sucked was we offered them Joseph and Brind'amour. Hall of famers everywhere and idiot arb judge has to take shanny.
@@WaddickLawnCare definitely a bit greedy to go for Stevens then shanahan. You got to admit if Detroit did that we'd have been annoyed. The punishment for Stevens was way overboard though can you imagine getting five number one picks right now for anything?
@@daftelf yes if you offer sheet a player over certain value it’s 4 first round picks? What other punishment can they get for doing it so close together that they didn’t even have the picks they offered sheeted. Seems logical to just take more picks considering St. Louis didn’t want the picks anyway lol
Shannon, I swear, even when you have an opinion that I wanna disagree with so badly, by the end I think "Fuck he makes a great point". So hats off to ya for giving me an existential crisis. Love ya
Rebuild. I have said this before but, I think a rebuild consists of more than just drafting good players and then have them elevated onto the parent team. It also is about trading for good players and [re]signing good players and signing top free agents. I think that last sentence is the downfall of many organizations (I'm talking about you, Sabres and Blue Jackets). Often it is not the fault of the GM/owners. It is about a franchise that is not seen by the top players as a good place to spend the best years out of a career.
Curious. I got into a discussion recently... allowed me to pick 6 franchises and you could have all the rest. I'll bet that there's a better than even chance that in 15 years one of my franchise selections will win the Cup. Bruins, Rangers, Florida, Chicago, Vegas and the Kings.
Or were they a dynasty is another debate one could argue. I think you can have more then one dynasty at a time. Look at avs n Detroit n New Jersey in the late 90’s to early 2000’s
A rebuild is successful when the team is able to consistently be competitive. I don't think they have to win the Cup to be a successful rebuild, but I do think consistent playoffs and being seen as having a shot at the Cup is probably the line.
I appreciate you talking about giving credit vs choking. It seems weird to me that so often people rather get stuck on the negative instead of focusing how well the other team played. Not every goal is a just mistake on someone's part. More often than not it is someone making a successful play. At least for me hockey is way more enjoyable when I focus on the positive.
Best TH-camr: THG definitely in my top five! Mostly because he's not afraid of a hockey conversation. Thanks again for another good video popping up exactly when we needed a mental break.
I wish that you would have spoken about your thoughts regarding OT, whether the rules need to be changed or not. But, I can't say I'm complaining just because of how awesome your videos are, and how much they make my day.
"Goals should be disallowed only if: (1) an attacking player, either by his positioning or by contact, impairs the goalkeeper's ability to move freely within his crease or defend his goal." Ha... I was expecting more like 8 pages of rules...
Goaltender Interference Rules 1) You can't just be up there and just doin' an interference like that. 1a. Interference is when you 1b. Okay well listen. An interference is when you interfere the 1c. Let me start over 1c-a. The skater is not allowed to do a block to the, uh, goalie, that prohibits the goalie from doing, you know, just trying to save the puck. You can't do that. 1c-b. Once the skater is in the offensive zone, he can't be over here and say to the goalie, like, "I'm gonna get ya! I'm gonna block your view! You better watch your butt!" and then just be like he didn't even do that. 1c-b(1). Like, if you're about to make a goal and then don't leave the crease, you have to still leave the crease. You cannot not avoid the goaltender. Does that make any sense? 1c-b(2). You gotta be, skating motion out of the crease, and then, until you just leave it. 1c-b(2)-a. Okay, well, you can have your stick up here, like this, but then there's the interference you gotta think about. 1c-b(2)-b. Fairuza Interference hasn't been in any movies in forever. I hope she wasn't typecast as that racist lady in American History X. 1c-b(2)-b(i). Oh wait, she was in The Waterboy too! That would be even worse. 1c-b(2)-b(ii). "get in mah bellah" -- Adam Water, "The Waterboy." Haha, classic... 1c-b(3). Okay seriously though. An interference is when the skater makes a movement that, as determined by, when you do a move involving the goalie and the crease... 2) Do not do an interference please.
@@jeffreym.8957 would a screen count as interference according to that then? because with a players ‘positioning’ they are impairing the goalies ability to ‘defend his goal’ am i interpreting that wrong?
@@goavs7438 only if the goalie is in the crease, and so is the screening player. Wich is why if the skater is in the crease the goalie will bump the player to get the refs attention
Love your videos. You don't say controversial or shocking things just to make a point. One thing I have wondered about relates to a phrase you, and many others, use: the one team wanted it more. Is this a thing? I suppose some players are more willing to risk their bodies by blocking shots, standing in front of the net or going into the corners etc. Is that what is meant by this phrase that I don't think is analyzed enough.
Scouts (and tbh a lot of fans, teams, commentators, etc) never talk about how a prospect defenseman controls his zone, steals the puck, makes chances, instead it's always here's his goals and assists and that's it.
Fantastic idea for a video Shannon! Really love to hear your takes on all of these common hockey talking points. Wishing you and yours health and happiness.
As a Jackets fan, I remember how everyone laughed at Tampa for being swept in the first round in 2019, and literally, LITERALLY no comments whatsoever about the way the Jackets played. You don't sweep a series just by being lucky
Really enjoyed the content in this video, and you are right I am sure you could fill another board up on this topic. Can you please do a ranking of the BEST Ice makers to settle the debate once and for all!
Agreed with pretty much all except one point. You absolutely, 100%, no doubt in my mind compare players across eras. I HATE when people say "its a different era you cant compare". To me it shows a lack of intelligence or willingness to do the hard thinking that is involved. Sure comparing across eras is definitely harder, but its 100000% possible and I think isn't done enough.
But they aren’t even the same sport? You had goons in the 70-80’s who only suited up to protect players. And to say the skill level hasn’t changed is kind of immature seeing as Gretzky has said that!
Gretzky wouldn't be able to hang in this era, thats why we can't compare that stuff. a lot of the stars from back in the day would get dusted in this era, lets just be real for a second lol.
I did a little project of my own for fun a couple years back and tried to tackle this in order to find a way to "in my opinion" equally balance the different eras and try to come up with a best of all time team. Basically I came up with 3 complete eras, and we're almost half way through the 4th. it basically breaks down in to 30 year increments. 1st era: founding of the league until the late 40's, early 50's. -instability with the number of teams in the league. -earliest days of the league, rules were still being established. smallest Talent pool predominantly from Ontario and Quebec , least amount of Coaching strategies and technical knowledge of the game. 2nd Era: early 50's to late 70's/early 80's. -More or less the rules of the game have been solidified for a while now (in game rules, number of players on a team, number of games in a season). -establishment of enough stability to steadily support the core "original 6" teams. and begin expanding to cities that are still around today. -talent pool spreads to western Canada, and even starts to break through in Europe and America, although still relatively limited. -although primitive, we start to see more advanced coaching methods. 3rd Era: Early 80's to late 2000's. -i know this might seem wierd with the high scoring 80's and the dead puck 90's being together, but I think it makes sence having the two extremes in the same era, especially since a lot of the predominant guys from the high flying 80's also suffered through the clutch and grab 90's, so it helps balance the stats a bit. -we see the America and a fed European nations establish themselves as "traditional" talent pools to draw from. -coaching becomes much more technical and I'd even say more important. -we see the end of drinking and smoking in the locker room between periods and the beginning of strength and conditioning as well as nutrition become a key part of the game. game. -I think this stretch is tghe golden era where we still had that old school meanness and physicality with the right mix of speed and skill. -we do start to see a drastic effort to make the game "more safe". And the now we're in the 4th era, which can't truly be defined until it's close to being over, but I made some predictions based on what I see happening would define the era: -Canada's dominance of hockey begins to wane and their title as top dog begins to be undeniably questioned, we likely see America take over this role at the end of the era. -regardless of which nation is top dog, we'll begin to see "best players in the world" be from different parts of the world and not just always Canadians. -probably see then end of fighting and overly physical aggressive plays in general by the end of this era. -We're already seeing more countries enter into relativity and I think this will continue (think along the lines of Switzerland beginning to establish themselves as a perennial contestants in the top levels of competition, we're seeing Danes and Latvians showing up more and more in the NHL). obviously that's just my opinion though.
the thing i always say about people trying to say "bust" is that Guy Lafleur took a few years to get rolling, but once he did he became one of the best hockey players ever
I've definitely softened my view of what a "bust" is. Not only would I say wait 3 years, I think it's worth exploring different coaches or different teams just to be sure. There's way too many examples of changing one or the other completely changes a player's success. I even see this on Toronto where a lot of players don't work out - can't get in on the top lines, etc. - and do much better going to other teams. That Naslund video also makes the point very well, and we have a very recent example with Cole Caufield. Way too many examples that I don't think it should be thrown around at all honestly.
Sam Bennett is a prime example of this. Couldn't figure it out in Calgary, and has been fantastic in Florida. He's shown exactly why the Flames were hesitant to trade him.
@@richardferguson6893 Yeah, I think of Nick Robertson on Toronto. I hear "bust" a lot with him. He's done nothing really so far but he wasn't ranked lower than his brother so I have a hard time believing he can't turn out similarly. I have a feeling that without the setbacks and maybe being on a different team it could work out better for him. I actually don't expect him to work in Toronto - getting those Barabonov vibes :/ The top 6 lines are really hard to crack, and it's just not a good environment for him. And while I am confident in the Leafs drafting abilities, I think our development programs are bad and often come to poor conclusions. "Steeves and Robertson are the real men separating the boys and Liligren is not ready" when basically the opposite is true :( Super frustrating. This stuff can really ruin a prospect's career.
@@Katie-hb8iq Jason Robertson is 2 years older and was sent down to the AHL to start last season. Nick is not far behind him at all, and Jason benefitted greatly from being able to score on a team that struggles with scoring. I will not say Dallas excels at player development, because there are a few key examples of players who should theoretically be doing more, or left and got magically way better on a different team, but it does support your point. Players may not fit with a team or a system and may thrive on a better line. Jason has Joe Pavelski and Roope Hintz, and they all make each other better.
"Draft best player available" - I remember yelling at my screen when I saw the Canucks draft Juolevi at #5 because they wanted a defenseman while Matthew Tkachuk, Mr. 92 Points and Counting, this year, was just sitting there. Best available player.
Counterpoint: blues in 06 take best player available, Erik Johnson. Leaving on the board: staal, toews, backstrom, Giroux. Suffer for years after without having a number one center. #doh
All the scouts that year figured Tkachuk was a poor skater (which he is) that benefitted from playing with Mitch Marner. Hope that makes you feel better…. Yeah, didn’t think it would. Sorry
@@stanschmenge1965 Tkachuk was a poor skater, I do remember...Big on the prospects. But I thought he fit the offense well because the Canucks in general were not fast. Plus he was clearly still the best player and the Canucks gave the cliché "draft the best player" but they didn't. They drafted whom they thought was the best defenseman, they drafted by position, and it bit them. Power forwards like Tkachuk are very rare with 90+ point ability and the Canucks knew it.
@@mattblom3990 just so you're not blinded by Tkachuk's stats this year, last year he was brutal IMO. He's still a poor skater, and the bad giveaway's got him less ice time when Sutter showed up. Not what you want out of your highest paid player. The difference this year is everyone's bought in and who he gets to play with every night - Lindholm/Gaudreau. He has to be qualified as an RFA at around 9.5M I think - last year he's not worth it , this year absolutely. Amazing what a coaching change can do for some guys.
In terms of how to call a game, I agree that it SHOULD be by the book, but I also recognize there's some subjectivity. So long as it's consistent, I'm usually fine with it. The things I look for: if it's a call in the first period, it's a call in the last 5 minutes of the 3rd or OT, if it' a call in November, it's a call in the playoffs. Consistent and don't let situations change the definition.
The "when is a player a bust?" debate I think it also has something to do with expectations. You won't hear people discuss players being a bust for those drafted after the 3rd round for example.
U should do another one of these. U should include the question of goals vs assists, and goals vs points. For example. If two players each had 100 point seasons, and one of them had 50 goals and 50 assists, and one of them had 30 goals and 70 assists, who had a better season, or is there a better season?
How the game should be called: the same at both ends. By the book, feel for it, pocket the whistle, whatever as long as you're making the same calls at both ends.
You deserve a lot of credit for not bumping teams up or down for injuries and such. It has been shown over and over again that such manual corrections are wildly inaccurate. Psychologist Paul E. Meehl coined "a broken leg rule" where only something really catastrophic and decisive (like a broken leg) should be taken into account.
Interesting thought: Joe Thornton, MVP, 1st overall pick, played for Canada - played multiple seasons (past 40 yrs old!) Zdeno Chara: played internationally for Slovakia, won the Norris Trophy, multiple all star game appearences - played multiple seasons (past 40 yrs old!) Patrick Marleau: elite level skater, 2nd overall pick, played for Canada - played multiple seasons (past 40 yrs old!) but... Matt Cullen...? never much of a scorer at the NHL level. decent 2-way center. But was that enough to play for so long? I always wonder how he played for so many seasons? Was it that his contract was just convenient or what?
On the whole “is this player a bust” I initially thought to wait after 5 years, I supposed 3 years is enough for some. I will be willing to stretch it “anywhere between 3-5 years, depending on the team’s situation, maybe.” Like, a rookie trying to make a team that’s already loaded for a cup run, maybe a shorter leash of 3 years. Or trade the player after that window to another team where the player will have more opportunity to show their talents. For a team rebuilding, give them 5 years. The young player on a rebuilding team will have more opportunities to prove they can be positively consistent to the team.
In the current climate of online discussion, where everything is THE worst or THE best and people's view are either pitchblack or angelic white, hearing someone with a logical greyscale is always refreshing to me. THG, keep up the good work!
It’s always fun to pick your favorite / best scorers, hitters, d-men, goalies, etc. I’m enjoying the hype around the top goal scorers this season. Coming back to hockey after a long absence, it’s been a fun season.
IGreat video! think a rebuild is over when a team becomes competitive year in and year out. They are a threat to make the playoffs every season, or do damage in the playoffs. For trading a 1st, I think its either when a team feels ready to go deep in the playoffs or if a stud player suddenly becomes available that no one expected.
Good vid as usual . Because you are wise (risk aversive ) you have not gone through the hell Alyssa Hope has recently gone through . Your content is great ! (I don't watch the previews/ reviews ) keep doing what makes you the most amount of money . I give your 4 cats and bunny rabbits a thumbs up ! Yvonne is great , and I think you made a smart choice including her ! GOOD HEALTH TO YOUR FAMILY .
A lot of debates really would benefit from context, but most casual fans don't like that... "Why are you trying to avoid a concrete answer" without realizing you're giving them an answer, but that it changes depending on the context of what you're asking. Truth of it isn't that you're not answering, you're asking the asker to ask a better question and not be so vague(and sometimes, this is a deliberate defensive mechanism so they can reframe what they mean, but most of the time, it's proof of not enough thought being given in what they're trying to ask).
If you do another one of these videos, do a topic on how awards are. Should there be a off/def defenseman award? Should there be a best overall player awards aside from the Hart(MVP)?
Growing up I always had fun discussions about Hockey. It wasn't until the internet and coming into contact with "fan bases" that I started to see some of the horrible toxicity in discussions. It's off putting and honestly probably bad for the sport. That said. yes, Hull's skate was in the crease.
I have never heard the term "dynasty" be given any objective qualifiers such as your 3 cups in 5 years. It's simply a word that means long reign of power. Regardless of whether the Lightning win another cup, they're just unequivocally a dynasty.
Topics worth debating: The merits of fighting, Post 04-05 lockout hockey vs pre lockout, whether 18 and 19 year old players should be allowed in the league, participation in olympic hockey, if "tanking" should be allowed or not, the toleration of diving, suspensions and all to do with them, and whether adding more and more teams to the NHL is good for the sport itself or not. You dont owe me anything but opining on any of these issues would be great.
...whether 18 and 19 year old players should be allowed?? What? They're legal adults at 18; heck, there's already been a couple 'exceptional status' players being allowed into the lower level pro leagues at 15/16, so maybe you should be asking if 16/17 year olds could ever play in the leauge? Minimum age will never, ever be higher than 18 I can guarantee you that. What a weird one that was.
@@countrystud1986 They may be adults on paper(in some places) but many of them are still growing physically as well as mentally. Yeah there are anomalies, but regardless I think there should be a rigorous process for a kid like that to get in. Im fine with it being relatively common, but it shouldnt necessarily be a normal every year thing, even for 1st overalls. The exceptional status("exception" being the key word) process in major junior seems like a good template, or maybe even a league-wide cap to keep too many teams from rushing kids. I realize there are alot of great 18 year old players but I believe many would be better if they waited a year before the big time. Go play in the euro mens league like Matthews did, as an example. I contend it would benefit their development.
In regards to the Best Ever Anything, one of the funniest experiments ever done was trying to find out what the smallest thing that could create an Us vs Them reaction in people and the answer was "Literally Anything"
Before I watch the video: Best goal scorer: Alex Ovechkin. Numbers speak for themselves, and I am convinced now that he will beat Gretzky's goal record as long as he doesn't have a season ending injury. When is it safe to say a player is a bust? In my opinion, it's obviously dependent on where they went in the draft, but at this point, I'd say about 5 years in to their NHL career, if they're not performing proportionately to their draft placement. Best Goalie: That's a tough one for me, I don't really follow the goalie race, but probably Vasilevsky. When is a Rebuild successful? In my opinion, when they make the playoffs a couple times, or make the conference finals. How should games be called by officials? Prioritize player safety, then call the rule book, then manage the game. If one team is being a bunch of goons (usual Bruins M.O. to me), then yeah, them ending up with 20 P.I.M.'s not counting fighting majors, and the other team having 2 or 4? Well too bad so sad. Things I can think of that I want taken more seriously is the crosschecks in front of the net, and especially in the lower back. Boarding needs to get tightened up on, the slashing of the sticks could use a little lightening up on, as in just slapping a player's stick a little bit, or trying to stick check them? Yeah that shouldn't be a penalty. What makes a Great Defensemen: Instead of summarizing, I'll use a name: Moritz Seider. Can we compare players across eras? Hell yeah, but you have to factor how much the game has changed, from pacing, to style, to even rules. I have no weigh in on trading first round picks. You should draft by need, unless you don't see what you need available. Then you just take the most valuable asset available to you, and hopefully sell for big dividends, or just bolster what you have. I'll skip to my last opinion: Choke vs. outplayed? Wellllll, choking to me is a team that's clearly better, or clearly capable of winning, and they go in to a situation and they collapse under the pressure. In the mean time, you can outplay a team by effectively countering their playstyle, or just having a higher drive to win.
Mike Bossy was the greatest goal scorer ever. .762 goals per game...no one else you mentioned comes close. Mario Lemiuex was next at .754 ....Auston Matthews is highest active player at .639, Ovcechkin -.612, Gretzky - .601.....and dynasty is three in a row at the least.
lower sample size (games played) will allow for higher g/pg if he had the same amount of GP as mario/ovi/gretz i would whole heartidly agree, however he didnt play enough games (to no fault of his own, just bad luck w health issues) to see if he would have regressed at all
Even Gretzky said that Bossy was the best pure goal scorer ever. No one has touched his record of 9 straight 50+ goal seasons which started in his rookie year.
Makes a huge difference when he had a great setup man in Bryan Trottier, for his career Do think Bossy is on the Mt Rushmore of goal scorers, one of the best wrist shots ( with a wooden stick+accuracy too) had the knack of finding the slot in a heavy lumber era, whether by subtly backing into the slot Even though he was shortened by a bad back, many a season he put up Hall of fame numbers playing hurt I m content to put Rocket Richard, MARIO, Now Ovie into that conversation Open to other current players adding years and goals to make that list Open to consider Iginla, playing without a number one center man, in the heavy clutch and grab era being considered or others who I have overlooked
Given how vague and subjective each of these questions is, I usually try to avoid them and if I'm forced to answer then I ask for a more specific question. 🤔
For all the questions where there are "right now" and "all time" answers, Nolan Ryan is perhaps the best example in all of sports. Yes, he set the single-season strikeout record, but he never won a Cy Young because he was never really close to being the best pitcher in his league, eclipsed by guys like Palmer and Valenzuela. But an argument could definitely be made that he's one of the best to ever play the game because he was so consistently good for so long.
As a Leafs fan I feel like any discussion about the Leafs with a fan of another team is just a waste of time because they think the Leafs will never accomplish anything til the end of time. I'm sure this applies to other teams as well, but it feels like everybody either loves or hates the Leafs these days
It’s largely due to the medias, making them unbearable to play against. Matthews matthews matthews marner marner nylander matthews matthews matthews marner marner nylander “random player doing well on the opposing team” matthews matthews matthews etc etc, that’s all you hear when your team plays them. Makes you wanna blow your brains out. And often times you hear about them even when you aren’t even playing them, like cmon
As a non-leafs fan, I think a lot of it has to do with a portion of your fan base, that just boggles my mind. Like when Shannon wore a Florida jersey in a news video becuse however you spell his name set a record for highest assists total ever and dude left a nasty comment becuse he didn't wear a Mathews jersey. But hopefully for your sake and especially Steve Dangle's sanity, I hope Toronto goes on a run this year.
Blues cup window closed after Petro left. But opened this season after Kyrou’s strong performance last year and him following it up this year with an even better one, along with Thomas elevating his playmaking abilities
I was on the edge of my seat, thinking you wern't going to mention Jágr in goal scorer argument, i'm shure I'm not the only kid who remembers him as goliath.
'Has their Cup Window opened or closed' For me, it's the same as asking 'Can they make it to the Conference Finals?' More often than not, the East is stronger than the West or vice versa. Being able to make it to the third round is the least I expect a team with their wondow 'open' to do.
The one thing is with divisional playoff setups, you can have the two best teams meet in the first 2 rds( or 3) I like your thinking of conference final , but even then say, TB meets Fla in 2nd rd , with a strong contender in Tor, two solid teams maybe even three don't make it out of rd 2
People just want to think that have inside knowledge on the best ever ice cleaners, its embarrassing. That being said, the one in Montreal is siiiiiiick
"Drafting by need" reminds me of the Maple Leafs drafting Freddie Gauthier 21st overall in 2013. A nice big center man. Played an extra year of junior and wasn't on the Leafs roster until 2018/19. Last I heard he's in the AHL with Utica.
You joke but I've had jobs where I got let go after a day because "I wasn't cutting it" But based on the attitude I got from those people I probably didn't want to work there anyways.
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Easy answer for everything. Patrick Maroon. The one man dynasty.
when is a rebuild over? patrick maroon.
how should games be called by officials? patrick maroon
what makes a great defensemen? patrick
m a r o o n
Has the cup window closed?
Patrick maroon
Could you imagine if Tampa wins 5 straight?! Pat Maroon, 6 cups in a row... HoF?
@@lonelycake4114 As long as you have Pat Maroon, your cup window is not closed. In fact, it's so open that you are guaranteed a cup XD
And Corey Perry has a chance this year to be the new Marion Hossa, 2 Cup finals back to back, no wins.
There is no debate for this one: Shannon is the best hockey TH-camr hands down.
THG is a bust…….lol jk.
This is so true that this being a top comment is becoming cliché lol dude's a legend. In the us, especially, where all the coverage is pretty sparse and mostly behind streaming pay walls.
ODD MAN RUSH IS THE BEST HOCKEY TH-camR! SHANNON IS JUST THE MOST PROLIFIC!...
See what I did tharharhar?...
I even managed to be completely unoriginal just like most yammering TH-cam/Twitter combatants, I almost literally just copy-pasted their names over "Lemieux" and "Gretzky" in the classic "Penguins fan" response to the "greatest player" debate...
(In all seriousness, though, I love both channels. The only reason I'm not subscribed to this one is because my subscription page is already an unbearable mess mostly because of two channels I follow that post more-or-less daily, and another that posts on alternating days. Adding a channel that posts several times a day would make it impossible to sort through.)
@@BeastOfMetal1989 lol I get like 30-40 new videos in my sub box everyday
@@WaddickLawnCare OK.
A) That's incalculable to me. I've always kept my sub feed small, and except for those three I mentioned, they drop vids between once a month and once a week, including livestreams.
B) How many of those do you actually watch in a day?
C) Do you have the kind of job where you can get away with watching TH-cam while pretending to work? Because I don't. Not even close.
I just got into hockey this season after years of being hesitant to do so because there was just so much I did not know. This channel has helped me so much get up to speed on everything and by end of season now, I really feel like I understand the pulse of the league. Thank you!!
Welcome!
I was like you 2 years ago. Shannon has given me so much to know and love about this great game. Now I love it more than ever!
Shannon is the opposite of a gatekeeper - he clearly and directly explains things to new fans.
Speaks volumes about his character.
Glad you got into the best sport in the world!
Welcome. Depending ofc what team you're rooting for!
It’s always interesting, because some players who play for YEARS below what their original predictions were can find success in different roles. Changing teams, play styles, you name it. One good example I can think of is what Nichushkin has been able to do with Colorado after most saw him as a failed first rounder in Dallas
great example. didnt work out with us in dallas, glad hes found a role with the avs. Funny enough how our team plays now vs when he was drafted he would fit alot better now
Or Campbell, who was a failed first rounder in Dallas, and then a backup in LA, but became a starter in Toronto. Or Marchment, who was a fringe player in Toronto, but has become a solid NHLer in Florida.
@@4adamswan there are all really solid examples. Just goes to show how you never know if a player has hit their ceiling or not
Best ice cleaner ever??? No question about that.
DAVID AYRES FOR THE WIN!
Of all time? I don't think you can compare ice cleaners across eras.
Nice of you to wear a Golden Seals jersey, Shannon. Best example of when NOT to trade your 1st round pick.
@Jeff Talbot Crazy thing was how good some of those players became after they left Oakland.
@Jeff Talbot I swear it wouldn't have been if they sold the franchise to Jerry Seltzer
My buddy played for the California golden seals 🦭…..in the 70’s .
Love these discussion videos, always interesting to hear your insights on hockey topics outside of team videos. Could you make a video on the odds of teams like the Canucks or Islanders making the playoffs and maybe some examples of if it's ever happened before in history that a team has been really far under and somehow snuck into the playoffs after a hot streak? Keep working hard, love the videos.
From my memory, the 14-15 Senators are the best example of a team who had slim to none odds sneaking into the playoffs. They went from 22-23-10 to 43-26-13, effectively going on a 21-3-3 run. That same year the Kings also went on something like an 8 game winning streak just to barely fall short of making it. 05-06 Devils went on an 11 game winning streak to win the division (they won the tie breaker against philly) and before the streak were out of the playoffs. Last one that come to my mind are the 18-19 Blue Jackets who won 7 of their last 8 to finish 2 points ahead of MTL.
Most recently you could look at St. Louis, dead last if my memory is right and won the Cup.
Mtl last season
@@richardferguson6893 they were dead last, yes, but what everyone forgets is that they were like 3 or 4 points out of a playoff spot at their lowest.
@@csolivais1979 imma have to agree with you because I had forgotten that too.
When I think of "choked", I think of a team where the pressure is clearly getting to them, and it's affecting how they would normally play. For example, Marner shooting the puck over the glass multiple times, causing many playoff penalties. He was very scared to get hit, despite having a lot of time to aim that clear. Or I think of a team that is just making lots of stupid mistakes at critical times in the game and collapsing after getting scored on rather than brushing it off and sticking to the gameplan.
However, I don't think Matthews having low scoring is a choke because Danault really is that good at shutting down top players, and he did it all playoffs. In this case, I'd say the depth on Toronto was just not good enough to overcome this, and missing Tavares and having the lines all screwed up and having too many rookies without NHL experience playing on those lines was the real factor in them losing. I'd also put a lot blame on Keefe for not adjusting well.
If Taveres was there it would have been a win for Toronto, Danault would have to divide his time against the 2.
2000 St. Louis Blues. Lost to San Jose when they should have gone much further
@@Dr.Frankensteen Canucks 2003 where our Captain Naslund told the media "we choked" against Minnesota.
@@Just_a_Man780 what does that even mean? You thought u said something smart
@@Just_a_Man780 It's pretty easy to imagine how that would have changed things though - Toronto was getting their asses handed them in the face-off circle and they only needed 1 goal in games 5 or 6. He was a point per game player and one of the best at taking face-offs in the entire NHL. Even in this season, he is #7 in faceoff wins and has the 2nd best face-off percentage in the entire league. He was also on the top player play unit. On top of this, the bottom 3 lines all got changed around as a result, which meant an injured Foligno or Spezza or Kerfoot had to play 2nd line center, which basically mean the bottom 2 lines were screwed and unpracticed.
Make no mistake, it IS Toronto's fault for not solving this depth problem, but it would have been less of an issue if Tavares was there. Notice that Toronto has 6 centers and 8 defensemen and better scoring depth this season. Dubas learned.
You are the future Hockey Guy. I don't agree with everything you say, but heck, your coverage is above and beyond the mainstream money pits that promote one narrative over another.
Saying this, Go leaf Go!
I know a guy who got fired on his first day: underground miner (operator); got lost, twice, on his first shift and ignored every safety regulation you can think of trying to get himself back to the surface.
Sometimes the boss can tell that you're not in the right place.
Now that one makes sense Phillip. Anyone in St Louis remembers though when we acquired Pronger for Shanahan the people were in revolt for years. Chris got pretty damn good I think we did okay there.
What sucked was we offered them Joseph and Brind'amour. Hall of famers everywhere and idiot arb judge has to take shanny.
@@daftelf If Hartford KNEW how Shanny felt they should have told the Blues to stuff it
@@daftelf maybe they shouldn’t offered sheet every player that has any potential lol
@@WaddickLawnCare definitely a bit greedy to go for Stevens then shanahan. You got to admit if Detroit did that we'd have been annoyed. The punishment for Stevens was way overboard though can you imagine getting five number one picks right now for anything?
@@daftelf yes if you offer sheet a player over certain value it’s 4 first round picks? What other punishment can they get for doing it so close together that they didn’t even have the picks they offered sheeted. Seems logical to just take more picks considering St. Louis didn’t want the picks anyway lol
My first boss totally told me I'm a bust and not going to make it after the first day.
Glad I don't work there anymore.
Sounds like your boss was a Leaf’s fan (joking!)
Shannon, I swear, even when you have an opinion that I wanna disagree with so badly, by the end I think "Fuck he makes a great point". So hats off to ya for giving me an existential crisis. Love ya
Who was the best ever "future consideration"
Rebuild. I have said this before but, I think a rebuild consists of more than just drafting good players and then have them elevated onto the parent team. It also is about trading for good players and [re]signing good players and signing top free agents. I think that last sentence is the downfall of many organizations (I'm talking about you, Sabres and Blue Jackets). Often it is not the fault of the GM/owners. It is about a franchise that is not seen by the top players as a good place to spend the best years out of a career.
Curious. I got into a discussion recently... allowed me to pick 6 franchises and you could have all the rest. I'll bet that there's a better than even chance that in 15 years one of my franchise selections will win the Cup. Bruins, Rangers, Florida, Chicago, Vegas and the Kings.
@@toddlane4261 Pure math says you have about a 95.6% chance of winning that bet.
@@ronaldwayne7092 Yeah, it has to do with some franchises are forever formidable, and all the rest are not.
@@toddlane4261 no, you missed what he is saying. You could randomly pick 6 teams and have about 90% chance of being right
@@csolivais1979 If that was what he meant to say, he does not understand math.
I'm only a few minutes in, and I can already say that I would like another discussion board. Please and thank you!
As long as you’re in the playoffs, your cup window is open. Kings proved that
Or were they a dynasty is another debate one could argue. I think you can have more then one dynasty at a time. Look at avs n Detroit n New Jersey in the late 90’s to early 2000’s
A rebuild is successful when the team is able to consistently be competitive. I don't think they have to win the Cup to be a successful rebuild, but I do think consistent playoffs and being seen as having a shot at the Cup is probably the line.
Really appreciate this video. Every “fan” needs to see this. So many too quick to use terms like “bust”, “superstar”, “best this”, best that”.
I appreciate you talking about giving credit vs choking. It seems weird to me that so often people rather get stuck on the negative instead of focusing how well the other team played. Not every goal is a just mistake on someone's part. More often than not it is someone making a successful play. At least for me hockey is way more enjoyable when I focus on the positive.
Best TH-camr: THG definitely in my top five! Mostly because he's not afraid of a hockey conversation.
Thanks again for another good video popping up exactly when we needed a mental break.
14:57 David Ayres, get you a zamboni driver who can do both lol
I wish that you would have spoken about your thoughts regarding OT, whether the rules need to be changed or not. But, I can't say I'm complaining just because of how awesome your videos are, and how much they make my day.
Another topic to be discussed: What is goalie interference?
"Goals should be disallowed only if: (1) an attacking player, either by his positioning or by contact, impairs the goalkeeper's ability to move freely within his crease or defend his goal."
Ha... I was expecting more like 8 pages of rules...
Goaltender Interference Rules
1) You can't just be up there and just doin' an interference like that.
1a. Interference is when you
1b. Okay well listen. An interference is when you interfere the
1c. Let me start over
1c-a. The skater is not allowed to do a block to the, uh, goalie, that prohibits the goalie from doing, you know, just trying to save the puck. You can't do that.
1c-b. Once the skater is in the offensive zone, he can't be over here and say to the goalie, like, "I'm gonna get ya! I'm gonna block your view! You better watch your butt!" and then just be like he didn't even do that.
1c-b(1). Like, if you're about to make a goal and then don't leave the crease, you have to still leave the crease. You cannot not avoid the goaltender. Does that make any sense?
1c-b(2). You gotta be, skating motion out of the crease, and then, until you just leave it.
1c-b(2)-a. Okay, well, you can have your stick up here, like this, but then there's the interference you gotta think about.
1c-b(2)-b. Fairuza Interference hasn't been in any movies in forever. I hope she wasn't typecast as that racist lady in American History X.
1c-b(2)-b(i). Oh wait, she was in The Waterboy too! That would be even worse.
1c-b(2)-b(ii). "get in mah bellah" -- Adam Water, "The Waterboy." Haha, classic...
1c-b(3). Okay seriously though. An interference is when the skater makes a movement that, as determined by, when you do a move involving the goalie and the crease...
2) Do not do an interference please.
@@jeffreym.8957 would a screen count as interference according to that then? because with a players ‘positioning’ they are impairing the goalies ability to ‘defend his goal’
am i interpreting that wrong?
We should just go back to the days where if you enter the crease the goalie can brain you, easy solution
@@goavs7438 only if the goalie is in the crease, and so is the screening player. Wich is why if the skater is in the crease the goalie will bump the player to get the refs attention
oh my god that last comment about Hull's skate was BEAUTIFUL!!!!! hahaha well done sir, well done
Love your videos. You don't say controversial or shocking things just to make a point. One thing I have wondered about relates to a phrase you, and many others, use: the one team wanted it more. Is this a thing? I suppose some players are more willing to risk their bodies by blocking shots, standing in front of the net or going into the corners etc. Is that what is meant by this phrase that I don't think is analyzed enough.
Love your team coverage, but you're hockey topic videos always teach me so much about the game
Scouts (and tbh a lot of fans, teams, commentators, etc) never talk about how a prospect defenseman controls his zone, steals the puck, makes chances, instead it's always here's his goals and assists and that's it.
Fantastic idea for a video Shannon! Really love to hear your takes on all of these common hockey talking points. Wishing you and yours health and happiness.
A video topic I find similar to this would be: the public identity of every team. How does the public view each franchise.
I've visited Buffalo recently as this past summer and have seen 'NO GOAL' signs posted.
As a Jackets fan, I remember how everyone laughed at Tampa for being swept in the first round in 2019, and literally, LITERALLY no comments whatsoever about the way the Jackets played. You don't sweep a series just by being lucky
As a Tampa fan, thanks for humbling us. We haven't lost a round since!
Really enjoyed the content in this video, and you are right I am sure you could fill another board up on this topic. Can you please do a ranking of the BEST Ice makers to settle the debate once and for all!
I love your approach to videos.
Call the book! The players will adapt!
I saw this one ice cleaner one time when I was up in Oregon. No contest, best ice cleaner of all time.
Agreed with pretty much all except one point.
You absolutely, 100%, no doubt in my mind compare players across eras. I HATE when people say "its a different era you cant compare". To me it shows a lack of intelligence or willingness to do the hard thinking that is involved. Sure comparing across eras is definitely harder, but its 100000% possible and I think isn't done enough.
Ok Einstein go figure it out then lol
But they aren’t even the same sport? You had goons in the 70-80’s who only suited up to protect players. And to say the skill level hasn’t changed is kind of immature seeing as Gretzky has said that!
Gretzky wouldn't be able to hang in this era, thats why we can't compare that stuff. a lot of the stars from back in the day would get dusted in this era, lets just be real for a second lol.
Here’s one if you do this again.
How many eras of the NHL have their been and what are the dates/events when they changed?
I did a little project of my own for fun a couple years back and tried to tackle this in order to find a way to "in my opinion" equally balance the different eras and try to come up with a best of all time team.
Basically I came up with 3 complete eras, and we're almost half way through the 4th. it basically breaks down in to 30 year increments.
1st era: founding of the league until the late 40's, early 50's.
-instability with the number of teams in the league.
-earliest days of the league, rules were still being established. smallest Talent pool predominantly from Ontario and Quebec , least amount of Coaching strategies and technical knowledge of the game.
2nd Era: early 50's to late 70's/early 80's.
-More or less the rules of the game have been solidified for a while now (in game rules, number of players on a team, number of games in a season).
-establishment of enough stability to steadily support the core "original 6" teams. and begin expanding to cities that are still around today.
-talent pool spreads to western Canada, and even starts to break through in Europe and America, although still relatively limited.
-although primitive, we start to see more advanced coaching methods.
3rd Era: Early 80's to late 2000's.
-i know this might seem wierd with the high scoring 80's and the dead puck 90's being together, but I think it makes sence having the two extremes in the same era, especially since a lot of the predominant guys from the high flying 80's also suffered through the clutch and grab 90's, so it helps balance the stats a bit.
-we see the America and a fed European nations establish themselves as "traditional" talent pools to draw from.
-coaching becomes much more technical and I'd even say more important.
-we see the end of drinking and smoking in the locker room between periods and the beginning of strength and conditioning as well as nutrition become a key part of the game.
game.
-I think this stretch is tghe golden era where we still had that old school meanness and physicality with the right mix of speed and skill.
-we do start to see a drastic effort to make the game "more safe".
And the now we're in the 4th era, which can't truly be defined until it's close to being over, but I made some predictions based on what I see happening would define the era:
-Canada's dominance of hockey begins to wane and their title as top dog begins to be undeniably questioned, we likely see America take over this role at the end of the era.
-regardless of which nation is top dog, we'll begin to see "best players in the world" be from different parts of the world and not just always Canadians.
-probably see then end of fighting and overly physical aggressive plays in general by the end of this era.
-We're already seeing more countries enter into relativity and I think this will continue (think along the lines of Switzerland beginning to establish themselves as a perennial contestants in the top levels of competition, we're seeing Danes and Latvians showing up more and more in the NHL).
obviously that's just my opinion though.
Also, Shannon, I agree 💯% on comparing different eras. Can’t do it!
I hope you do more vids like this. Great for discussion. 👍🏻👍🏻
I gotta pop some corn for this video
@@idiotidiot5821 and he ran a bunch of bad boys
All your points can be summed up in one old saying "opinions are like a certain part of the human anatomy.... everybody's got one."
Lol I love how you censored yourself!
This should absolutely be a recurring segment on your channel!
I hope this video does really well! Love hearing your takes about general hockey stuffs
the thing i always say about people trying to say "bust" is that Guy Lafleur took a few years to get rolling, but once he did he became one of the best hockey players ever
I've definitely softened my view of what a "bust" is. Not only would I say wait 3 years, I think it's worth exploring different coaches or different teams just to be sure. There's way too many examples of changing one or the other completely changes a player's success. I even see this on Toronto where a lot of players don't work out - can't get in on the top lines, etc. - and do much better going to other teams. That Naslund video also makes the point very well, and we have a very recent example with Cole Caufield. Way too many examples that I don't think it should be thrown around at all honestly.
Sam Bennett is a prime example of this. Couldn't figure it out in Calgary, and has been fantastic in Florida. He's shown exactly why the Flames were hesitant to trade him.
Definitely agree. I also don't apply the bust label to players that have had injury problems. That's something beyond their control.
@@richardferguson6893 Yeah, I think of Nick Robertson on Toronto. I hear "bust" a lot with him. He's done nothing really so far but he wasn't ranked lower than his brother so I have a hard time believing he can't turn out similarly. I have a feeling that without the setbacks and maybe being on a different team it could work out better for him. I actually don't expect him to work in Toronto - getting those Barabonov vibes :/ The top 6 lines are really hard to crack, and it's just not a good environment for him. And while I am confident in the Leafs drafting abilities, I think our development programs are bad and often come to poor conclusions. "Steeves and Robertson are the real men separating the boys and Liligren is not ready" when basically the opposite is true :( Super frustrating. This stuff can really ruin a prospect's career.
@@Katie-hb8iq Jason Robertson is 2 years older and was sent down to the AHL to start last season. Nick is not far behind him at all, and Jason benefitted greatly from being able to score on a team that struggles with scoring. I will not say Dallas excels at player development, because there are a few key examples of players who should theoretically be doing more, or left and got magically way better on a different team, but it does support your point. Players may not fit with a team or a system and may thrive on a better line. Jason has Joe Pavelski and Roope Hintz, and they all make each other better.
"Best Hockey rivalry"
again, best, is subjective, but still a fun question!
Outplayed everytime. There's a wonderful video of Mark Cuban destroying Skip Bayless about this. He just crushes everything Skippy says.
GOALS SAVED ABOVE EXPECTED!!! That is the best goalie stat
Honest question, but do you know how that stat is calculated?
"Draft best player available" - I remember yelling at my screen when I saw the Canucks draft Juolevi at #5 because they wanted a defenseman while Matthew Tkachuk, Mr. 92 Points and Counting, this year, was just sitting there. Best available player.
Counterpoint: blues in 06 take best player available, Erik Johnson. Leaving on the board: staal, toews, backstrom, Giroux. Suffer for years after without having a number one center. #doh
Always go with the best player available. Even if you can't fit him into your lineup, you have a higher quality asset to trade for your needs.
All the scouts that year figured Tkachuk was a poor skater (which he is) that benefitted from playing with Mitch Marner. Hope that makes you feel better…. Yeah, didn’t think it would. Sorry
@@stanschmenge1965 Tkachuk was a poor skater, I do remember...Big on the prospects. But I thought he fit the offense well because the Canucks in general were not fast. Plus he was clearly still the best player and the Canucks gave the cliché "draft the best player" but they didn't. They drafted whom they thought was the best defenseman, they drafted by position, and it bit them. Power forwards like Tkachuk are very rare with 90+ point ability and the Canucks knew it.
@@mattblom3990 just so you're not blinded by Tkachuk's stats this year, last year he was brutal IMO. He's still a poor skater, and the bad giveaway's got him less ice time when Sutter showed up. Not what you want out of your highest paid player. The difference this year is everyone's bought in and who he gets to play with every night - Lindholm/Gaudreau. He has to be qualified as an RFA at around 9.5M I think - last year he's not worth it , this year absolutely. Amazing what a coaching change can do for some guys.
How do you come up with all these topics? Fav channel on YT! Thanks for the content Shannon
great job thg made me chuckle afew times love that
Might be off topic, but as a professional who utilizes dry-erase boards, Shannon is the GOAT at keeping his boards clean. Look at the shine!
In terms of how to call a game, I agree that it SHOULD be by the book, but I also recognize there's some subjectivity. So long as it's consistent, I'm usually fine with it. The things I look for: if it's a call in the first period, it's a call in the last 5 minutes of the 3rd or OT, if it' a call in November, it's a call in the playoffs. Consistent and don't let situations change the definition.
Guy Lafleur scored 29, 28 and 21 goals in his first three seasons, before scoring 50+ goals in his six following seasons !!!!!
Different time! Not saying it isn’t true then or now but that goes in the era debate as much as it goes in the bust debate IMO
Great video, definitely like these discussion topic ones!
The "when is a player a bust?" debate I think it also has something to do with expectations. You won't hear people discuss players being a bust for those drafted after the 3rd round for example.
U should do another one of these. U should include the question of goals vs assists, and goals vs points.
For example. If two players each had 100 point seasons, and one of them had 50 goals and 50 assists, and one of them had 30 goals and 70 assists, who had a better season, or is there a better season?
Some assist monsters get assists because their shot needs to be respected. Some assist monsters are Scott Gomez
How the game should be called: the same at both ends. By the book, feel for it, pocket the whistle, whatever as long as you're making the same calls at both ends.
And for all 60+ minutes of the game.
@@angiebee2225 Exactly
I think in the cap era it’s fair to call back to back or 2 in 3-4 years a dynasty or mini dynasty. It’s just so tough in the salary cap era.
I agree and wonder if it’s possible to have more then one dynasties at once! Like look at New Jersey, Detroit avs in the late 90’s to early 2000’s
You deserve a lot of credit for not bumping teams up or down for injuries and such. It has been shown over and over again that such manual corrections are wildly inaccurate. Psychologist Paul E. Meehl coined "a broken leg rule" where only something really catastrophic and decisive (like a broken leg) should be taken into account.
Interesting thought: Joe Thornton, MVP, 1st overall pick, played for Canada - played multiple seasons (past 40 yrs old!)
Zdeno Chara: played internationally for Slovakia, won the Norris Trophy, multiple all star game appearences - played multiple seasons (past 40 yrs old!)
Patrick Marleau: elite level skater, 2nd overall pick, played for Canada - played multiple seasons (past 40 yrs old!)
but...
Matt Cullen...? never much of a scorer at the NHL level. decent 2-way center. But was that enough to play for so long? I always wonder how he played for so many seasons? Was it that his contract was just convenient or what?
On the whole “is this player a bust” I initially thought to wait after 5 years, I supposed 3 years is enough for some. I will be willing to stretch it “anywhere between 3-5 years, depending on the team’s situation, maybe.”
Like, a rookie trying to make a team that’s already loaded for a cup run, maybe a shorter leash of 3 years. Or trade the player after that window to another team where the player will have more opportunity to show their talents.
For a team rebuilding, give them 5 years. The young player on a rebuilding team will have more opportunities to prove they can be positively consistent to the team.
Victor Rask is a bust for sure.
Nichushkin used to be a bust.
Colin White is a Bust! 28 Million Dollar BUST!
@@ralphyboy3636 he’s a second round pick. Busts is for high picks that don’t become decent players
In the current climate of online discussion, where everything is THE worst or THE best and people's view are either pitchblack or angelic white, hearing someone with a logical greyscale is always refreshing to me. THG, keep up the good work!
Glad to see your seeing things properly to tho! Give yourself credit!
It’s always fun to pick your favorite / best scorers, hitters, d-men, goalies, etc. I’m enjoying the hype around the top goal scorers this season. Coming back to hockey after a long absence, it’s been a fun season.
Very interesting video. Thank you for what you're doing!
Best Zamboni driver is clearly the one in Toronto
Q: when is it safe to say a player is a bust?
A: When he misses an empty net on a break away.
IGreat video! think a rebuild is over when a team becomes competitive year in and year out. They are a threat to make the playoffs every season, or do damage in the playoffs. For trading a 1st, I think its either when a team feels ready to go deep in the playoffs or if a stud player suddenly becomes available that no one expected.
I am a simple man I see a new THG video I click play and hit like 👍
that's what I do as well
Me too! THG is the only channel I give 👍 every vid. Go Avs!! Joe Sakic for Prez! 😂 🍻
I Think we can all agree. Shannon’s Opinion is the best thing ever
Good vid as usual . Because you are wise (risk aversive ) you have not gone through the hell Alyssa Hope has recently gone through . Your content is great ! (I don't watch the previews/ reviews ) keep doing what makes you the most amount of money . I give your 4 cats and bunny rabbits a thumbs up ! Yvonne is great , and I think you made a smart choice including her ! GOOD HEALTH TO YOUR FAMILY .
A lot of debates really would benefit from context, but most casual fans don't like that... "Why are you trying to avoid a concrete answer" without realizing you're giving them an answer, but that it changes depending on the context of what you're asking. Truth of it isn't that you're not answering, you're asking the asker to ask a better question and not be so vague(and sometimes, this is a deliberate defensive mechanism so they can reframe what they mean, but most of the time, it's proof of not enough thought being given in what they're trying to ask).
If you do another one of these videos, do a topic on how awards are.
Should there be a off/def defenseman award?
Should there be a best overall player awards aside from the Hart(MVP)?
Shannon
Love these types of discussions. Keep up the good work.
Growing up I always had fun discussions about Hockey.
It wasn't until the internet and coming into contact with "fan bases" that I started to see some of the horrible toxicity in discussions.
It's off putting and honestly probably bad for the sport.
That said. yes, Hull's skate was in the crease.
I feel like the Norris trophy is just whatever defenseman gets the most points so they should have separate trophies
The Orr and the Norris
I have never heard the term "dynasty" be given any objective qualifiers such as your 3 cups in 5 years. It's simply a word that means long reign of power. Regardless of whether the Lightning win another cup, they're just unequivocally a dynasty.
Don’t know about you guys, but Shannon, The Hockey Guy is the best hockey analyst ever!
Topics worth debating: The merits of fighting, Post 04-05 lockout hockey vs pre lockout, whether 18 and 19 year old players should be allowed in the league, participation in olympic hockey, if "tanking" should be allowed or not, the toleration of diving, suspensions and all to do with them, and whether adding more and more teams to the NHL is good for the sport itself or not.
You dont owe me anything but opining on any of these issues would be great.
...whether 18 and 19 year old players should be allowed?? What? They're legal adults at 18; heck, there's already been a couple 'exceptional status' players being allowed into the lower level pro leagues at 15/16, so maybe you should be asking if 16/17 year olds could ever play in the leauge? Minimum age will never, ever be higher than 18 I can guarantee you that. What a weird one that was.
@@countrystud1986 They may be adults on paper(in some places) but many of them are still growing physically as well as mentally. Yeah there are anomalies, but regardless I think there should be a rigorous process for a kid like that to get in. Im fine with it being relatively common, but it shouldnt necessarily be a normal every year thing, even for 1st overalls. The exceptional status("exception" being the key word) process in major junior seems like a good template, or maybe even a league-wide cap to keep too many teams from rushing kids.
I realize there are alot of great 18 year old players but I believe many would be better if they waited a year before the big time. Go play in the euro mens league like Matthews did, as an example. I contend it would benefit their development.
I think it would be a cool video to do a time-line tracking the end of 1 era of hockey and where the next begins when it comes to comparing them
In regards to the Best Ever Anything, one of the funniest experiments ever done was trying to find out what the smallest thing that could create an Us vs Them reaction in people and the answer was "Literally Anything"
Before I watch the video:
Best goal scorer: Alex Ovechkin. Numbers speak for themselves, and I am convinced now that he will beat Gretzky's goal record as long as he doesn't have a season ending injury.
When is it safe to say a player is a bust? In my opinion, it's obviously dependent on where they went in the draft, but at this point, I'd say about 5 years in to their NHL career, if they're not performing proportionately to their draft placement.
Best Goalie: That's a tough one for me, I don't really follow the goalie race, but probably Vasilevsky.
When is a Rebuild successful? In my opinion, when they make the playoffs a couple times, or make the conference finals.
How should games be called by officials? Prioritize player safety, then call the rule book, then manage the game. If one team is being a bunch of goons (usual Bruins M.O. to me), then yeah, them ending up with 20 P.I.M.'s not counting fighting majors, and the other team having 2 or 4? Well too bad so sad. Things I can think of that I want taken more seriously is the crosschecks in front of the net, and especially in the lower back. Boarding needs to get tightened up on, the slashing of the sticks could use a little lightening up on, as in just slapping a player's stick a little bit, or trying to stick check them? Yeah that shouldn't be a penalty.
What makes a Great Defensemen: Instead of summarizing, I'll use a name: Moritz Seider.
Can we compare players across eras? Hell yeah, but you have to factor how much the game has changed, from pacing, to style, to even rules.
I have no weigh in on trading first round picks. You should draft by need, unless you don't see what you need available. Then you just take the most valuable asset available to you, and hopefully sell for big dividends, or just bolster what you have.
I'll skip to my last opinion: Choke vs. outplayed? Wellllll, choking to me is a team that's clearly better, or clearly capable of winning, and they go in to a situation and they collapse under the pressure. In the mean time, you can outplay a team by effectively countering their playstyle, or just having a higher drive to win.
Mike Bossy was the greatest goal scorer ever. .762 goals per game...no one else you mentioned comes close. Mario Lemiuex was next at .754 ....Auston Matthews is highest active player at .639, Ovcechkin -.612, Gretzky - .601.....and dynasty is three in a row at the least.
lower sample size (games played) will allow for higher g/pg if he had the same amount of GP as mario/ovi/gretz i would whole heartidly agree, however he didnt play enough games (to no fault of his own, just bad luck w health issues) to see if he would have regressed at all
Even Gretzky said that Bossy was the best pure goal scorer ever. No one has touched his record of 9 straight 50+ goal seasons which started in his rookie year.
@@triandfit1 Im not trying to say hes not up there, but I just think #GP needs to be kept in mind
Makes a huge difference when he had a great setup man in Bryan Trottier, for his career
Do think Bossy is on the Mt Rushmore of goal scorers, one of the best wrist shots ( with a wooden stick+accuracy too) had the knack of finding the slot in a heavy lumber era, whether by subtly backing into the slot
Even though he was shortened by a bad back, many a season he put up Hall of fame numbers playing hurt
I m content to put Rocket Richard, MARIO, Now Ovie into that conversation
Open to other current players adding years and goals to make that list
Open to consider Iginla, playing without a number one center man, in the heavy clutch and grab era being considered or others who I have overlooked
That dynasty thing you said isn’t true at all considering it’s happened 4 total times all before 1984
Given how vague and subjective each of these questions is, I usually try to avoid them and if I'm forced to answer then I ask for a more specific question. 🤔
For all the questions where there are "right now" and "all time" answers, Nolan Ryan is perhaps the best example in all of sports. Yes, he set the single-season strikeout record, but he never won a Cy Young because he was never really close to being the best pitcher in his league, eclipsed by guys like Palmer and Valenzuela. But an argument could definitely be made that he's one of the best to ever play the game because he was so consistently good for so long.
Another highly debated topic:
Championships with possible asterisks.
(shortened seasons, lockouts, changed formats, injuries, bad officiating)
100%
As a Leafs fan I feel like any discussion about the Leafs with a fan of another team is just a waste of time because they think the Leafs will never accomplish anything til the end of time. I'm sure this applies to other teams as well, but it feels like everybody either loves or hates the Leafs these days
It’s largely due to the medias, making them unbearable to play against. Matthews matthews matthews marner marner nylander matthews matthews matthews marner marner nylander “random player doing well on the opposing team” matthews matthews matthews etc etc, that’s all you hear when your team plays them. Makes you wanna blow your brains out. And often times you hear about them even when you aren’t even playing them, like cmon
As a non-leafs fan, I think a lot of it has to do with a portion of your fan base, that just boggles my mind. Like when Shannon wore a Florida jersey in a news video becuse however you spell his name set a record for highest assists total ever and dude left a nasty comment becuse he didn't wear a Mathews jersey. But hopefully for your sake and especially Steve Dangle's sanity, I hope Toronto goes on a run this year.
I can safely say, by this July, I can tell you which teams have had the Cup window close for 2022.
Save percentage best stat for a goalie however a goalie is only as good as the defense in front of him
Blues cup window closed after Petro left. But opened this season after Kyrou’s strong performance last year and him following it up this year with an even better one, along with Thomas elevating his playmaking abilities
I was on the edge of my seat, thinking you wern't going to mention Jágr in goal scorer argument, i'm shure I'm not the only kid who remembers him as goliath.
Thanks for another great video! Keep on going!
'Has their Cup Window opened or closed' For me, it's the same as asking 'Can they make it to the Conference Finals?' More often than not, the East is stronger than the West or vice versa. Being able to make it to the third round is the least I expect a team with their wondow 'open' to do.
The one thing is with divisional playoff setups, you can have the two best teams meet in the first 2 rds( or 3)
I like your thinking of conference final , but even then say, TB meets Fla in 2nd rd , with a strong contender in Tor, two solid teams maybe even three don't make it out of rd 2
Most high level goalies are marginally better than each other and the rest of your team's ability dictates whether your stats are low or high
Vasilevskiy has been consistent top 3 for 6 years.. 2 cups, Conn Smythe, & a Vezina.
People just want to think that have inside knowledge on the best ever ice cleaners, its embarrassing. That being said, the one in Montreal is siiiiiiick
"Drafting by need" reminds me of the Maple Leafs drafting Freddie Gauthier 21st overall in 2013. A nice big center man. Played an extra year of junior and wasn't on the Leafs roster until 2018/19. Last I heard he's in the AHL with Utica.
Best ever.....Montreal Canadiens '76-'77. 60-8-12 132 points and Stanley Cup.
You joke but I've had jobs where I got let go after a day because "I wasn't cutting it" But based on the attitude I got from those people I probably didn't want to work there anyways.