I think a cool raid utility for hunters could be an ability they could press that would enable everyone in the raid to be able to cast while moving for like 6 seconds or so. It fits thematically with the class, most people in a raid would enjoy having that buff and would be useful on a lot of fights, but not really be a broken addition to their class. Maybe call it like Aspect of the Vulpine or something.
It's particularly galling and insane for Shamans, since they were the original 'support' class. In TBC, my Ele shaman brought Bloodlust, 3% increased hit and crit, +127 spell damage, and a mana battery... on top of some of the best dps in the game at the time. And now, I'm one of the only specs bringing nothing. At least move windfury into the class tree so we've not spec-locked to Enhance.
@democratsarepedos You have no idea what you're talking about. 3% crit and 127 spell damage (at a point where most classes had like 700 spell damage in T4) was immense in TBC. Windfury, strength of earth and grace of air for enhance was also enormous for literally every melee class. Totems were extremely powerful, even tho they were limited to the immediate group in the raid.
@@russodoni5331 Their group limitations were the precise reason for inferiority. The totemic systems are far superior in MoP where you drop quick, temp totems for situations. And none of that 10-30 minute cooldown crap. wtf was that?
Not usually a guy who comments that often, but I wanted to say that I think over the past couple of years Max has really improved his way of communicating with us casuals. I remember back in SL - watching his stream - and often not understanding anything (and I assure you I was just as bad as I am now). But nowadays, he really manages to break down his high-level raid-thinking to a casual level and makes his argument while still sounding like a professional. I really do learn a lot and gain a lot of insight. Thanks for that! And also congratz on WF. Best wishes from Europe.
Usually the thing that keeps casuals out of mythic is the ridiculously and unrealistically high dps requirements. You could do everything perfectly, but still wipe due to low dps.
Its crazy to me that they thought of 2 extra creative group buffs and gave them both to a class that already had one. I swear hunter could thematically provide 4% group avoidance, and shamans could bring 8% increased healing from a totem or something.
lets give shamans tree of life on steroids ... exactly this is what makes the game redundant in retail - everybody can do everything - so we went full circle - now we stack Classx for their dmg in classic it was the same but at least with flavour of the classes.
@@vincenzomusella3029 They had a lame excuse of wanting to provide some cool and interesting utility rather than a raid buff, yet they think having such imbalances in the meantime is okay
And break the rest of the game. You have BGs, arenas, mythic, and everything else. His entire point is that utility is king in raid, and they have none.
As an ele shaman main and part of the core raiding team in my guild who is getting ready to start prog on sark, it feels really REALLY bad to hear the GM say “survivability is the most important part here” and then not see my name on the roster. 😢
As someone who loves Marksmanship in all it's glory, I am thankful for people, especially you, speaking up about this problem! Being benched even tho you're better than at least 4 players, but you don't bring anything to the raid is really frustrating...
Having gone from dk to shaman i can comfortably say the only thing shaman has is mobility in the form of gust of wind, wind rush, and ghost wolf. the area based mobility can be covered by a druid so all they truly bring to the table is their own personal movement. (totally not counting that roar is just more useful in a lot of situations) sidenote augmentation is going to make it harder for lesser performing specs to get in raid. if you want your comfiest kills you are going to make dedicated groups around augvokers that will pump out massive dps.
it would be SO easy to have the option to either talent into certain raid buffs that the your pet casts or the buff changes depending on what kind of pet you bring into the raid.
Ive gotten CE something like 10 times now and ive played many specs for those kills. Each time I decided to play something, what the raid needed was more important to me @jetswept7427
Ive main ele sonce cata. I usually am around 1-2nd spot in dps, but outside of damage i bring nothing. Theres so many options we could have. Give us back elemental oath, a spell verson of wind fury, whenever we can ele blast, maybe a random multicast on a caster or put the secondary boast on another too. Theres so much they could give us but they just dont. They tried with mana spring totem which procs only of lava burst but then made lava burst ao weak.
I wonder if Hunter would be back in the list if Aspect of the Fox (raidwide cast on the move CD) was back in the game or if enough classes have good enough mobility that it wouldn't help
It'd be fight dependant utility, off the top of my head; during a phase were you need to burn but the boss is forcing the casters to move a lot. Also any fight where adds are being moved around/grouped up from where they spawn it could let casters play a bit more loose. It'd just be "nice to have" on some fights, but not a gamechanger. But niche is better than 0.
@@Bladius_ It would effectively fill the same niche as DK and be almost as effective. Off the top of my head Rashok, Zskarn, and Echo of Nelth would all benefit greatly from having that CD.
@@blackopsy9 It would be mandatory on probably every boss assuming cast while moving also applied to knockbacks (Sark dispel, Magmorax). Even phases where only some people need to move like Kazzara or Experiments. Amalg and Assault have movement phases. It's just free damage in all those scenarios.
Guess I don't play at the highest of the high end, but I would think there would be at least a few fights every raid where you want resto shaman purely for how you can cheese mechanics with spirit link totem
I think the hunter thing could be fixed if more fights had a large soak to immune and if you could talent into something like aspect of the pack. I dont know enough about shaman but i feel like WF should be class talent.
Ret Aura just needs a grace period on the proc of like 2 seconds. That would allow it to cover multi hit abilities easier which are honestly MOST forms of damage nowadays. It would even allow for double boss auto if need be.
Honestly activating on a negative event (damage taken) seems to promote really degen behaviour where you manipulate it optimally (like Max gave the example of having the tank sit down to take extra damage). At least it's not about sacrificing players and letting them intentionally die without help like it was in SL. Personally I think Shield of Vengeance captures that "retribution" fantasy better. And if Ret is supposed to get some sort of raidwide tool like that, it feels like it should be an external that you cast on the tank or something, not based on the aura mechanic.
@Anolaana I mean in an ideal world in relatively difficult content you'd have the aura trigger on cooldown even by the boss doming the tank for 20% twice in the given time frame (let's say 3 seconds). Tanks only have to do things like run no mitigation or sit down BECAUSE it requires on big hit.
I feel like the buff shamans could use is something like 10% windfury to raid, doubled in 5mans. And maybe a totem of spell echo for elemental, where spells have a 10% chance to 'windfury' for 10-20% of their usual damage.
Maybe there should be a special buff that only activates if you have at least one of every class in your raid. That would be much simpler to implement than trying to balance the value of each individual class. Would be very difficult to get that buff in pugs though.
As a Shammy player, who enjoys Ele way more than Enhance in raids, I'd like for Windfury to become a Shaman thing not an Enchance thing. Additionally, I would make stoneskin totem a 10% damage reduction (currently only physical) for 6/10 seconds to make it somewhat useful during stuff like Glittering Surge. I would prefer a utility overhaul for Shaman similar to that of Classic where not necessarily we have a totem for every situation (too many buttons as is) but I'd like to bring more utility outside of what other classes already bring for all Shaman specs not just Enhance.
" I'd like for Windfury to become a Shaman thing not an Enchance thing. " You'd still take enhance for it, because they want to be stood in melee for it anyway AND they actually use it themselves unlike ele; it's a personal AND a raid buff for enhance, but isn't for ele. Something similar in function, but for casters could be cool though; maybe like a 25yrd "cast while moving, lingers for 1 extra cast after you leave it" totem or something .
@@Bladius_ I know what you mean, but I'd still like that option of Ele despite it not fitting Ele at all. Or I'd like Ele to get a Windfury like totem that fits them, maybe additional resource generation (maelstrom/mana/focus/etc.) or even a flat 5% crit damage/chance so that Ele supports ranged classes in a similar vain that Windfury does for melee.
or remove 2 of 3 buffs that monks bring to a raid and give them to shamans/hunters. Increased healing taken to shamans and replace hunter's 6% avoidance node with a 6% aoe avoidance node. Thematic, and monk is no longer OVERLOADED on raid buffs
@@ancine514 i'd argue that kills monk ALMOST, as max said, almost noone except warrior (and technically not even them) does pure physical, depending on tuning and stuff it would be not that much of a loss since monk doesnt really do anything, WW is mid, MW kinda mid and brm relies on good tuning or oversights on blizzards end - unfortunately as of now monk kinda lives and dies on the value of these buffs - but lowering them slightly would be fine tbh Whats being almost willfully ignored is that the classes that bring these buffs (except dh tbh) are pretty good by themselves and have wholly useful kits for the most part and defensives - hunters and shamans need pretty big touch ups just to be baseline competitive without mandatory raid buffs, hunters need good useful utility and a raid buff and shamans need more defenses tbh
Tie it to hunters mark, but multiple marks don’t stack, makes it slightly more interesting with target swaps etc and on multi boss fights can provide an argument for more than one hunter if splitting the raid.
@@Dendanier I actually like the idea of tying the buff to hunter's mark as it currently has 0 usage though it would be slightly annoying for council bosses and I guess it does give a niche reason to bring more than one hunter. Though I'd rather see hunter's mark both increase the damage done and reduce damage taken from the target like it did in SL. I could see this 3% crit buff being a pet ability (sorry MM hunters) that's on all pets. Might as well give hunters their brez pets back while they're at it so hunter can be the perfect flex class with good utility.
As an ele shaman i wish we could do more. Im lucky enough to have a group of people to raid with that dont mind what class i play as long as i do mechanics.
Maybe we need to go back to the Cataclysm era raid buffs where a certain buff could be given by more than one classes, like when blessing of the kings was the same as mark of the wild, when both balance druid and warlock could slap a 8% magic damage amp on a target, rogue and feral druid giving 5% crit etc etc I like the game having class buffs and I think more than one spec providing it would help a lot
Unrelated, but could you please tell me why hunters in my guild have such a hard on for Beast mastery? It sims as the worst spec on most fights yet stick with it
@@MrBlueSleeves not sure if I correctly understood your reply but BM is harder than people give it credit. Literally DH, MM, or even survival is arguably easier than BM which is just tracking frenzy and Beast cleave through a weakaura so it's kind of interactive in that sense vs just click button and go burrrr with no thought. And sims are never the whole story unless the entire raid is standing still the entire time. BM can sim the lowest but can also do their entire rotation on the move which no other class can really do (so 0 down time if the BM hunter can even slightly multi-task). I enjoyed BM but it's underpreforming so badly it feels like (as I really enjoy m+ too) that I tried MM (it was okay) but defaulted back to survival cause it was doing much more dps in keys while the rotation is easier (again, arguably you throw bombs and hit them with a polearm to reset bombs).
@@MarkElf2204 Alright then a preeetty big block of text with 0 line breaks. 1. I didnt say that BM was easier, but if your point is that marksman is played less because it's easier, then sure. 2. I said "sims" but really what I meant is "logs", as they show BM as the worst on most fights, so you can scratch that one. 3. unsure about the last part, don't really understand why that was included in your response
@@MrBlueSleeves It's literally just because it's easy to play. It's significantly easier than Survival and MM. DH is probably close in simplicity as far as rotation but is still harder just due to being melee.
Hunters back than in WoD, when i started with WoW and it was ofc my first class.. SV Hunter.. i got specifically brought to raid (BRF HC Blackhand ofc) for Fox. It was a huge gamechanger for that fight, we had 2-3 huntards bcs of that. Give it back or give smth else actually.
My weird take is that I believe they tried to give hunters that unique utility of something like a warlock, DK, etc... With the sentinel owl talent in the Hunter base talent tree. On paper it sounds cool and unique but in practice I can't think of anywhere it could be used.
What bothers me is that Owl was actually decent on DF Beta (it gave 5% leech AND 10% magic DR) and Blizzard changed it randomly the last second for seemingly no other reason aside from that they hater Hunters I guess?
@@stylaaaniki such a wasted talent. I want so very much for this ability to have any sort of meaning or reason to pick up. But even if owl becomes good it is still a talent point investment over what Dk's and warlocks bring innately.
@@cameronbordeau850 That may be true for Warlock and DK, but many of the specs/classes on this last that have buffs have to take them as a talent. Probably most.
Maybe the idea should be something like Hunters increase the damage of all ranged abilities above 20 meters range by 3 or 5%, and shamans could have some empower bonus for empowered abilities. Like a 1% increase to the buff abilities people have. So like instead of avatar doing 20% damage it'd be 21% damage during it.
As primarily a FFXIV raider and old WoTLK raider, I do like this idea. In FFXIV it's known as the Party Bonus Effect and is done similarly: +1% to Primary Stats per unique role if you have at least 1 Tank, Healer, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, & Caster (total 5%) in your 8-man party. You don't lose this bonus if you have a second of the role (ex. 2 melee), so you can instead focus on spreading your team comp with different classes to get a better burst window timing instead of double dipping. I doubt Blizz will ever incorporate something like this though and will continue with their current "balancing"
Hunter needs a raid CD that isnt worthless like sentinel owl. Gid rid of that and bring back aspect of the fox as a 40yrd aura that gives small amount of movement speed, and then as a talent below that give like greater aspect of the cheetah as an active that gives everyone affected by your fox aspect of the cheetah. The only thing i can think of for shaman is some kind of mana return totem, eg x%of mana spent while the totem is active is returned over x seconds after the totem expires. Dont play enough of ele/resto to know where something like that would slot in.
....Dps shamans can already bring a mana spring totem that gives the healers mana each time they cast lava burst (for ele, idk which ability for enh) :) Bottom left of their tree. It's nifty.
Give hunters a vanilla mark or marksmanship aura (for crit, for example). Like it takes nothing to add underrepresented classes specs some raid buffs as a bare minimum of utility. Instead, blizz just say how much they want each class to have a spot in mythic raid groups.
now i know my class well and i dont play at a high level with my hunter but i pump hard with melee hunter usually top dps so seeing that we are bad is kinda nice if we get buffed ima go harder if not then im still fine sure i dont bring utility like the others and i probably havent tried dpsing agianst some of the best players thats why this is so interesting to me
Only 1.8% of dps parses in mythic aberrus (at the time of writing this comment) were ele parses. As a long time ele main I've pretty much entirely lost confidence in what blizzard does to this class in terms of desirable raid utility. It once was a respectable range spec you'd like to bring to a raid nowadays it's basically a meme spec almost nobody still plays. I often arrive at mythic bosses during progress less than a handful of ele players have killed at that point. I remember when i reached diurna mythic last tier in my guild (arround world 150 at that time) there were iirc 3 ele parses on that boss. It's ridiculous and absolutely devastating.
@@jaded-harper oh did me not parroting your favourite TH-cam that you have a parasocial relationship with, make you feel just like when daddy hit mummy again? Im sorry
@@Jim-og9oc what are u on about lmfao. i dont care 2 shits about max personally he just has a lot of knowledge on wow cause hes a wf raider. its in everyone's that plays this games best interest for blizz to do better. but go off about parasocial relationships homie xD. the circus stage is all yours
It seems like without even trying. He should have added Devastation/Preservation to the list with Ele/Resto. Augmentation is like Enhancement in the regards that its going to be taking the evoker spot in a raid in a lot of cases. Its hard to imagine if we are making the argument for 2 Augmentation Evokers that you would take a third evoker.
Did you watch the video? He went over why those two specs don't fit what he's talking about. This isn't about which specs are the worst of their class. It's about which ones don't bring a mandatory raid buff / utility. Which Pres/Dev still do. Aug might be a better pick than those two, but if you don't have an aug you'd take a pres/dev. If you didn't have an Enh shaman you wouldn't then take a resto or ele. That's the difference.
It'd be similar to death grip's utility I think. Almost every raid's gonna have at least one encounter where that'd be really powerful (would be really nice for p1 Sarkareth, for example, to get better DPS while baiting bombs), so you'd probably always want at least one hunter.
@@grimnir8872 it doesnt have to benefit everyone equally to be valuable. if you have say 10 casters including healers in the raid, then it would be well worth it. and also, i'd say it fits for a bm hunter to cast it, cause he's essentially giving the raid what he specializes at ; contributing while being able to move.
Now we look at my guilds raid comp rarely have a dk and when we do never have 2 for fights like soulrender that was made way easier with 2 ways to group the 4 adds. Rarely has a pally of any type until this expansion when it became super meta. Used to always have a mage but no one wants to play one this expansion. Almost always have a shaman almost never ench. We either have zero warriors or 3 lol. We rarely have a warlock and same for rogue. I think we regularly have 2 hunters have had up to 5 at a one point. Monk buff hasn't been a thing this expansion and wasn't common last. We have one DH for the last 3 years that only shows up about half the time. We are always recruiting but when you clear 4-5 mythic each expansion you basically get no one looking to join your guild and when you do they rarely want to or are skilled enough to push up to a guild that could maybe get CE before the last week or the tier. This is my biggest problem with the way they are designing classes these days. They want you to fill all these things and that is how they design it but the vast majority I'd guess are in my shoes not CE guilds who could likely fill ever classes fairly easy. Not only are we less skilled but we have to play with harder to reach checks because we can't get people to join to fill those rolls or don't want to force people to reroll to fill a spec/class they may not like. We did try this for mythic painsmith we had a druid go warlock for gate and by the end of the tier she hated logging in so bad she just quit the game completely because she didn't like the class but we were not killing that fight without a gate and we never once had a warlock apply and stay longer then one week.
I think a sick hunter raid spell would be the ability to camouflage your party for a few seconds. This can reduce their damage taken or something. When they pop out, they could have a bit of a haste buff. This could also have a downside of slowing the party while camouflaged and for a few seconds when they pop out, so it has a risk too. For shamans, a cool ability could be to infuse the party's attacks with frost or fire or some element temporarily and you need to know which bosses are susceptible to these types of attacks and when. Another idea for the hunter plays off the "hunter/gatherer" trope, where you can cast an ability on 30 min cooldown that spawns some pick-able berries and mushrooms around the raid room that the raid can pick up. They can be randomly distributed and some can be poisonous and some can be a buff, maybe with visual cues. Perhaps they spawn for like 15s and despawn again. Another for the shaman could be throwing out a circle aoe spell on 15 min cd that changes the ground terrain for 30s. It could be a 1/4 chance of ice where you slip quickly and can ignore los for 10s, 1/4 chance of fire where you take some damage but also get a damage buff, 1/4 chance of earth where you slow down but damage reduction, and 1/4 chance of nature where you heal and also increase healing. Thanks
Just give more shaman specs group wide buff totems like Windfury, like a flametongue totem that gives a caster oriented buff. Blizzard is going to continually run into this balancing issue until they lean into having some specs lean into the support role, like Augmentation. They copy so much from GW2, why not copy how they handle group comp.
I feel like a hunter buff could just be a like range buff, add 2-5 yards for casts and melee. Simple and might be nice for certain things, like buffing prevokers lol.
if you end up bringing 2 aug yeah, but if it's only one at the end, then not really. evoker general utility is still better than what hunter/shamans bring
More classes need raid cooldowns instead of raid buffs. They serve a similar purpose to raid buffs but with actual strategy and vary in value depending on the fight. As of right now you only ever stack multiple of one class/spec if it is just the strongest in role/damage profile, but with raid cooldowns instead of raid buffs there are more viable strategies in stacking multiple of one spec. Having half of the raid being hard required classes is an issue that can only really be solved by taking raid buffs away or homogenizing them in some way, and adding raid buffs to underused classes only exacerbates the issue
Personally, I think there should be more appreciation for SLT from RSham. It was huge in our Sark kill! Agreed that Hunters need more than just Turtle.
They should give hunters a party wide Aspect of the Turtle. Everyone has to stack and move as a unit with the hunter. I feel like that would definitely bring some new flavor to raiding. I would also give shamans the ability to grant 5% damage reduction to an element of their choosing to the raid.
like i dont get it, why do they not let hunter bring anything good? either give them a required utility or remove all utilities (which obviously you cannot do latter)
As a restosham main that also enjoys hunters a whole lot with years of exprience playing and raiding with both of them, I am extremely glad that I switched to Evoker and quit raiding for good
My hot take is that casual heroic pugs and normal clears historically see hunters as bm pet auto attacks with a lust and movement. I hope your cool video doesn't get these clowns to ignore blue collar DMG dealers or healers. Time in Q can be the meta.
my favorite race to world first event was uunat, purely because seeing everyone switch over to having 14 warlocks for drain life bullshit was freaking awesome to see. I understand degenerate play styles can be kind of annoying for the people doing it, but for the viewer it was so exciting.
A good reason to bring Hunters would if Blizzard actually buffed their damage beyond near end-raid MM. I also don't see at all how Aspect of the Fox returning Helps Survival or BM hunters get spots. I have yet to see the justification why Warlocks are allowed to be so strong while also having such high utility.
The Simplest Fix for Elemental shaman is to give them Skyfury Totem. Its already in the game but its only for PvP. bring that into PvE and elemental shamans will always get a spot in raids. Give hunters like a 2-3% raid crit and call it a day tbh. I hope blizzard sees this Video Maximum, this needs to be addressed already. As a Elemental Shaman, it sucks that i cant even get into a lot of high +20 keys because Enchancment is just the better spec tbh.
I think the only really viable answer to this issue is to look back into the days of wrath/cata/mop where raid buffs were more homogenized(which would really bring us full circle since that homogenization and classes not feeling as unique or special, was often criticized back then lol). Since Classic is in Wrath right now, we can use it as an example where for every single raid buff there are AT LEAST 2 different specs(in many cases there are 3) that can bring "x" buff, and many specs bring MORE than one buff since they bring something that is unique to their class, and then often bring another buff that is unique to their spec. And keep in mind that there are WAY more buffs to worry about in Wrath, so the system should be even more effective for retail raiding. Doing this would not only make every class/spec feel useful, but the more significant effect it would have on raiding is on the ROSTER BOSS. For many lower end mythic guilds(non-CE, maybe trying to get CE) one of the biggest issues is consistently the Roster Boss, and it is made even more difficult when youre adding augmentation to the game since most of these lower-end mythic guilds already struggle to cover(and some dont) all the buffs for an "optimal" raid comp. I know Blizzard says this is only something "top guilds" worry about, but the reality is if they tune Mythic around having all of these buffs, the top guilds are skilled enough to still kill every boss even if they were to hypothetically miss one or two buffs. Whilst its a much greater "debuff" for these lower end mythic guilds to not have a few of them, and its much more likely for those guilds to be missing them in the first place. If every buff in the game could be brought by at least one other spec(maybe even 2 other specs for certain more universal buffs) it would make fielding an optimal raid comp far easier. I know there are some people who wouldnt be thrilled with homogenization if they mained something like DH, and another spec was also given the 5% magic dmg debuff, but the reality is the mythic raiding scene DESPERATELY needs something like this to help combat the roster boss. Mythic raid is at an all time low in terms of participation, and I think many people dont even consider trying it, or going back to it, which is a real problem.
Your points make a ton of sense...but homoginzation is a huge killer of class identity imo. I think they just need to do a better job of giving each class a unique and valuable buff to make it worth bringing at least one. Too strong of a buff and you bring extras over other classes and if too weak you just don't bring that class ever. Not sure either is the best solution and I don't know what the middle ground is.
@@joshholmes1372 That level of homogenization is completely fine, it hardly comes close to "killing" class identity. The entire reason I didnt suggest for some classes to also be given some type of good, unique buff/ability is that just makes things even more problematic when it comes to raiding. It basically just means that if you want to play optimally, the vast majority of your raid comp would be locked in with little room for parity. You can look at the breakdown Max did here with what will be "required" to be optimal with Aug evokers, it leaves maybe a few spots open as it is. Now imagine Ele/Hunters/DK/Feral/Balance etc. ALSO brought a unique buff/ability that you wanted in your raid comp....all of the sudden now you now have almost every single raid spot locked in to play optimal. That just isnt a realistic expectation for a lot of guilds.
ele shaman have a great iconic raid buff... in a PVP talent -_-' Skyfury Totem can easily give elemental a raid spot, along the extra windrush. Also the reason ppl say hunters and shamans are the squishiest raid classes is due to the other raid specs that have less defensive layers than shaman or hunter acutally using Versatility as a main stat. atm is quite frequent to see ele hsmans or hunter swith ZERO versa on their gear, making their defensive layers weaker than they were designed to, and its actually blizzard fault for not tweaking them back up to standard. first tier in shadowlands ele shamans main stats were haste + versa, a ele shaman running 25%+ versa was actually normal, it had current warlock levels of tnakiness basically. look at retribution atm: versa in spades, along the newly reworked stuff it makes them immortal. rogue specs, monks, dk, all versa users as top 2 stats. even if their kits werent good enough, they became good due to the versa stacking. as a ele shaman, for me to retain my place in raid i need to play 2x as good as others, i have to move with more efficiency, avoid any and all kind of dmg that many classes ignore, and all in order to compete in dmg wioth a FLAT dmg profile, no cd's nothing. its pray the fight isnt over in 3.30/4M but in 5 instead so my dmg profile can normalize vs the mages and stuff. why ele shaman doesnt have skyfury totem as a "mandatory" talent in the talent tree is a freakin mistery to me. one of the most iconic totems along windfury and mana tide for years reduced to a pvp only talent... as for hunters, the eternal "do mechanics and kiter" that garanteed them raid spots they need a decent raid buff as well, for me its their pet selection that are key here: having the pets bring some buffs like fortitude/mark of wild/rogue poison utility/movement speed buffs are so easy to digest that its stupid why we dont see them often (even if the pet would be a totem runing along the MM hunter, but cmon, mm/survival not having the pets around is another dumb stuff we see and i dont rly understand. locks are better hunter representation than huinters are for a pet class =p)
What they should really be bringing back is the MoP style buff system where multiple classes gave the same buffs, and hunters could slot in any buff via their pets to get everything covered.
@@diddyboppin69 no because it’s just going back to class pruning and losing identity of the class. People are just gonna have 3 stacks of the same classes again.
@@BIGSLOW. It's not good on ele/resto though, you still wouldn't be considered for the role; it's good on Enhance because they're already in melee and it's both a personal AND raid buff when they use it. Enhance bringing it iss always gonna be superior, so we're back at square one even if it's "technically" available to the others.
@@Bladius_ It being a personal buff doesnt really matter tho. They are already balanced with it for themselves in mind. Like priest PI is not better on shadow because it's also a personal buff. Shadow is already balanced around it as a personal buff it's not a buff ON TOP of everything.
"If we're not seeing some classes or specs represented, then we're going to make changes" Classes we're not seeing: Hunters, Shamans. 10.1.5 Patch notes for hunter: "Fixed an issue where Scatter Shot would incorrectly stop Spiteful Shades from Mythic+ Spiteful affix from slowly dying." And for ele shaman: "changed EQ tooltip". >
I think you hit the nail on the head with hunters and shamans (and DKs to a lesser extent) need to absolutely fuck to get a raid spot, and that's an issue that would require a massive change. Hunters could give a +range buff, but that wouldn't really amount to dick (similar to the evoker buff). Shaman totems should just be group-wide and not tied to a spec (Windfury and Flametongue buffing melee and casters would be nifty) if they don't want to just make a 4th "support" shaman spec.
i hate those marksman rashok charts, marksman currently has one of the highest simulated dmg range in the game, meaning with perfect play you might get 118k by getting no proccs or getting 189k by getting enough proccs and at the correct time what you see in the charts as "good" hunters are actually hunters that hit the jackpot you don't want that in a progression raid, you want consistent dmg across several attempts and not for the hunter to get lucky so you meet the dmg requirement
@@esaesaeesaesa Im happy thats youre experience. My experience is even the casuals mimic the highend for the image of looking like they know what they are doing. An example would be early this season i joined a +11 on my 2200 rated priest, and i was missing 2 enchants cause i was about to replace those pieces and i was crushing content far higher than 11s. I then got flamed by the 1250 rated tank who then left the group before we inserted the key cause he didnt think i was good enough cause i wasnt using an enchant. My experience is the better players know how little the gap is, whereas the casuals think think B-tier is unplayable. Its dunning krugers syndrome. Even though in HC it doesnt really matter what the group is comprised of as long as people do their part.
@@zeitz4473 it's not just that. You have to remember the most basic of human behaviour, simplest path, from a to b. Why would person a NOT want to have an easier time "statisticly" by not bringing x player, rather than y player. Since wow is a multiplayer game, your own time is yours, and means YOU are not required to give others your time, same as you are not entiteled to their time. Due to this fundemental human behaviour, at any time x is better than y, you will in general NEVER want to bring y over x
The Dathea side platforms were simplified so much by having 2 slappy hand boys. Having to kick and group up all those casters while they need to die asap takes too long and feels cringe. We even pugged a 2nd DK that was undergeared during heroic progression just to make the other platform super easy. He did garbage damage, but no one cared, because we didn't bring him for his damage, but because he can press the "let's skip this mechanic" button. It's hilarious how every time a DK is wanted for a boss, it's because they are so unbelievably good that no one bats an eye if the player is awful. So long as they do the grips right, the raid leader will keep them around until the boss dies. AMZ is awesome too, but you almost have to bring a Blood or it'll pop before absorbing a whole lot.
I was top 20-40 in the world during SoD for Elemental and held several rank 1-10 parses for most of the tier. I was very rarely in the first three deaths even on progression and executed mechanics. When I tried to get into ANY guild in the top 200 during Shadowlands and later during Dragonflight, and I applied for over 40, I was denied from nearly every single one because 'You're an Elemental Shaman and you don't bring anything to a raid. We don't need damage, we need utility. Sorry." The ONE guild that accepted my application was on the other side of the US from me, which forced me to play on a shifting 80+ ping, plus I had to stop because I couldn't stay up until 2:00-3:00 AM every raid night and still hold my everyday job. I've since quit the game entirely because it's next to impossible to get into any high end groups playing my favored class and spec. I had to play the entirety of Dragonflight as Enhance until I recently quit. To push past 2500+ io in M+ or get my CE mythic kills I had to abandon the spec I enjoy just to be able to play the game. It has been this way for most of my more than a decade plus long raiding 'career' in WoW. So go on Warlocks, Monks, Warriors, Paladins, Rogues, etc. Tell me about your woes of getting into raids. I'm listening.
Just make a raidguild yourself so you will always be in the raid as the lead, problem solved :^) But yes, raid comps are just dumb these days. It's even happening in m+ for all kinds of key lvls, pretty sad tbh. Had some ele guildmates and they all felt abandoned by blizzard for multiple expansions and raids, so I know how you feel. Sorry m8.
As a DK I don't feel my spot is in jeopardy on a raid roster 25~ strong. We do good damage, cannot die and as Max said...grip is usually mandatory for 1 fight per tier
I think a cool raid utility for hunters could be an ability they could press that would enable everyone in the raid to be able to cast while moving for like 6 seconds or so. It fits thematically with the class, most people in a raid would enjoy having that buff and would be useful on a lot of fights, but not really be a broken addition to their class. Maybe call it like Aspect of the Vulpine or something.
look up aspect of the fox. that's exactly what it did and it's what most people bring up when discussing hunter raid buffs.
It was a thing lul
I know lol, That's why i chose a synonym for fox in the name.
@@Bearmones i got thing'd
I see what you did there…apparently these other people did not.
It's particularly galling and insane for Shamans, since they were the original 'support' class. In TBC, my Ele shaman brought Bloodlust, 3% increased hit and crit, +127 spell damage, and a mana battery... on top of some of the best dps in the game at the time. And now, I'm one of the only specs bringing nothing. At least move windfury into the class tree so we've not spec-locked to Enhance.
yeah especially with blizzard giving so much things to evokers... It's crazy, they even got the mana battery.
I would rather they change Skyfury Totem to be a PvE talent rather than just a PvP one 😅
They really brought nothing, except BL/Hero. Buffs were meh, back then.
@democratsarepedos You have no idea what you're talking about. 3% crit and 127 spell damage (at a point where most classes had like 700 spell damage in T4) was immense in TBC. Windfury, strength of earth and grace of air for enhance was also enormous for literally every melee class. Totems were extremely powerful, even tho they were limited to the immediate group in the raid.
@@russodoni5331 Their group limitations were the precise reason for inferiority. The totemic systems are far superior in MoP where you drop quick, temp totems for situations. And none of that 10-30 minute cooldown crap. wtf was that?
Not usually a guy who comments that often, but I wanted to say that I think over the past couple of years Max has really improved his way of communicating with us casuals. I remember back in SL - watching his stream - and often not understanding anything (and I assure you I was just as bad as I am now).
But nowadays, he really manages to break down his high-level raid-thinking to a casual level and makes his argument while still sounding like a professional. I really do learn a lot and gain a lot of insight.
Thanks for that! And also congratz on WF.
Best wishes from Europe.
Yeah I started watching the RWF more this expansion and I like listening to Max explain things!
Usually the thing that keeps casuals out of mythic is the ridiculously and unrealistically high dps requirements. You could do everything perfectly, but still wipe due to low dps.
i disagree, he's always been as clear as he is now
Thanks for the vid. I enjoy your discussions about the strengths and challenges with class strengths and composition selection.
This is the type of video that Maximum excels in
Yah, he really is top Sheets when it comes to this.
Its crazy to me that they thought of 2 extra creative group buffs and gave them both to a class that already had one. I swear hunter could thematically provide 4% group avoidance, and shamans could bring 8% increased healing from a totem or something.
Monks already do both.
lets give shamans tree of life on steroids ... exactly this is what makes the game redundant in retail - everybody can do everything - so we went full circle - now we stack Classx for their dmg in classic it was the same but at least with flavour of the classes.
@@MarkElf2204 that's his point 💀
@@vincenzomusella3029 They had a lame excuse of wanting to provide some cool and interesting utility rather than a raid buff, yet they think having such imbalances in the meantime is okay
If they aren’t going to give Hunters and Shamans raid buffs and or utility then they should be top 3 in damage output.
That's not how they balance DPS.
And besides, elemental is already up near the top and still an uncommon spec in higher end mythic raiding.
And break the rest of the game. You have BGs, arenas, mythic, and everything else. His entire point is that utility is king in raid, and they have none.
Just give ele wind fury as well and make it raid wide not party and it would be fine
@zaneb1419 but... they dont benefit from it 😆
That’s fine, still makes them infinitely more useful than they are now
As an ele shaman main and part of the core raiding team in my guild who is getting ready to start prog on sark, it feels really REALLY bad to hear the GM say “survivability is the most important part here” and then not see my name on the roster. 😢
Mythic or heroic?
As someone who loves Marksmanship in all it's glory, I am thankful for people, especially you, speaking up about this problem! Being benched even tho you're better than at least 4 players, but you don't bring anything to the raid is really frustrating...
Having a BM hunter for zskarn is great for having a trap errand boy lol
If you run a BM hunter in your group they are basically just the errand boy for mechanics.
@@roanshadowraven4426 sadly BM is absolutely boring to play and brings me no joy whatsoever
Having gone from dk to shaman i can comfortably say the only thing shaman has is mobility in the form of gust of wind, wind rush, and ghost wolf. the area based mobility can be covered by a druid so all they truly bring to the table is their own personal movement. (totally not counting that roar is just more useful in a lot of situations)
sidenote augmentation is going to make it harder for lesser performing specs to get in raid. if you want your comfiest kills you are going to make dedicated groups around augvokers that will pump out massive dps.
Just seeing max talk raids or anything along those lines, builds the excitement for the next RWF
it would be SO easy to have the option to either talent into certain raid buffs that the your pet casts or the buff changes depending on what kind of pet you bring into the raid.
If not for raid buffs and their influence on class decisions I wouldve been maining ele sham for a long time now
SAME
you were never close to getting cutting edge so why not play what you want?
@@jetswept7427Have you ever applied to a pug raid?
@@Senen33 Have you? Gear and xp matter 1000% more than perfect comp.
Ive gotten CE something like 10 times now and ive played many specs for those kills. Each time I decided to play something, what the raid needed was more important to me @jetswept7427
Ive main ele sonce cata. I usually am around 1-2nd spot in dps, but outside of damage i bring nothing. Theres so many options we could have. Give us back elemental oath, a spell verson of wind fury, whenever we can ele blast, maybe a random multicast on a caster or put the secondary boast on another too. Theres so much they could give us but they just dont. They tried with mana spring totem which procs only of lava burst but then made lava burst ao weak.
Battle shout also buffs tanks, a lot of mitigation is vers/attack power based I think.
I wonder if Hunter would be back in the list if Aspect of the Fox (raidwide cast on the move CD) was back in the game or if enough classes have good enough mobility that it wouldn't help
It'd be fight dependant utility, off the top of my head; during a phase were you need to burn but the boss is forcing the casters to move a lot. Also any fight where adds are being moved around/grouped up from where they spawn it could let casters play a bit more loose.
It'd just be "nice to have" on some fights, but not a gamechanger.
But niche is better than 0.
@@Bladius_ It would effectively fill the same niche as DK and be almost as effective. Off the top of my head Rashok, Zskarn, and Echo of Nelth would all benefit greatly from having that CD.
@@blackopsy9 It would be mandatory on probably every boss assuming cast while moving also applied to knockbacks (Sark dispel, Magmorax). Even phases where only some people need to move like Kazzara or Experiments. Amalg and Assault have movement phases. It's just free damage in all those scenarios.
Guess I don't play at the highest of the high end, but I would think there would be at least a few fights every raid where you want resto shaman purely for how you can cheese mechanics with spirit link totem
I think the hunter thing could be fixed if more fights had a large soak to immune and if you could talent into something like aspect of the pack. I dont know enough about shaman but i feel like WF should be class talent.
Ret Aura just needs a grace period on the proc of like 2 seconds. That would allow it to cover multi hit abilities easier which are honestly MOST forms of damage nowadays. It would even allow for double boss auto if need be.
Honestly activating on a negative event (damage taken) seems to promote really degen behaviour where you manipulate it optimally (like Max gave the example of having the tank sit down to take extra damage). At least it's not about sacrificing players and letting them intentionally die without help like it was in SL.
Personally I think Shield of Vengeance captures that "retribution" fantasy better. And if Ret is supposed to get some sort of raidwide tool like that, it feels like it should be an external that you cast on the tank or something, not based on the aura mechanic.
@Anolaana I mean in an ideal world in relatively difficult content you'd have the aura trigger on cooldown even by the boss doming the tank for 20% twice in the given time frame (let's say 3 seconds).
Tanks only have to do things like run no mitigation or sit down BECAUSE it requires on big hit.
I feel like the buff shamans could use is something like 10% windfury to raid, doubled in 5mans. And maybe a totem of spell echo for elemental, where spells have a 10% chance to 'windfury' for 10-20% of their usual damage.
it would be amazing to be able to make other caster spells overload
Shaman has wind rush totem, but it's kind of redundant if you're already bringing an enhance and two druids
Maybe there should be a special buff that only activates if you have at least one of every class in your raid. That would be much simpler to implement than trying to balance the value of each individual class.
Would be very difficult to get that buff in pugs though.
Best idea ever. Up!
The power rangers megazord buff. Combine all the classes into one mech.
As a Shammy player, who enjoys Ele way more than Enhance in raids, I'd like for Windfury to become a Shaman thing not an Enchance thing. Additionally, I would make stoneskin totem a 10% damage reduction (currently only physical) for 6/10 seconds to make it somewhat useful during stuff like Glittering Surge.
I would prefer a utility overhaul for Shaman similar to that of Classic where not necessarily we have a totem for every situation (too many buttons as is) but I'd like to bring more utility outside of what other classes already bring for all Shaman specs not just Enhance.
" I'd like for Windfury to become a Shaman thing not an Enchance thing. "
You'd still take enhance for it, because they want to be stood in melee for it anyway AND they actually use it themselves unlike ele; it's a personal AND a raid buff for enhance, but isn't for ele.
Something similar in function, but for casters could be cool though; maybe like a 25yrd "cast while moving, lingers for 1 extra cast after you leave it" totem or something .
They could make Skyfury totem a regular talent for elemental. Gives spell crit damage for party members
Currently progressing mythic sark too as ele. I feel the pain in this words 😂
@@Bladius_ I know what you mean, but I'd still like that option of Ele despite it not fitting Ele at all. Or I'd like Ele to get a Windfury like totem that fits them, maybe additional resource generation (maelstrom/mana/focus/etc.) or even a flat 5% crit damage/chance so that Ele supports ranged classes in a similar vain that Windfury does for melee.
@@Phoecian it should be an overload totem, party members have a chance to overload their spells
Swapping from hunter to Augmentation for my mythic raids. Might as well toss out some buffs if I'm already doing less damage!
Augmentation is very OP. ~190k dps if you're buffing good players in a raid. That's counted as YOUR damage on Warcraftlogs.
Marks hunter is 9th in damage in mythic raid. They have good damage.
Just give hunters a 3% crit buff for their raid group and the issue is essentially resolved.
or remove 2 of 3 buffs that monks bring to a raid and give them to shamans/hunters. Increased healing taken to shamans and replace hunter's 6% avoidance node with a 6% aoe avoidance node. Thematic, and monk is no longer OVERLOADED on raid buffs
@@ancine514 i'd argue that kills monk ALMOST, as max said, almost noone except warrior (and technically not even them) does pure physical, depending on tuning and stuff it would be not that much of a loss since monk doesnt really do anything, WW is mid, MW kinda mid and brm relies on good tuning or oversights on blizzards end - unfortunately as of now monk kinda lives and dies on the value of these buffs - but lowering them slightly would be fine tbh
Whats being almost willfully ignored is that the classes that bring these buffs (except dh tbh) are pretty good by themselves and have wholly useful kits for the most part and defensives - hunters and shamans need pretty big touch ups just to be baseline competitive without mandatory raid buffs, hunters need good useful utility and a raid buff and shamans need more defenses tbh
Tie it to hunters mark, but multiple marks don’t stack, makes it slightly more interesting with target swaps etc and on multi boss fights can provide an argument for more than one hunter if splitting the raid.
@@Dendanier I actually like the idea of tying the buff to hunter's mark as it currently has 0 usage though it would be slightly annoying for council bosses and I guess it does give a niche reason to bring more than one hunter. Though I'd rather see hunter's mark both increase the damage done and reduce damage taken from the target like it did in SL.
I could see this 3% crit buff being a pet ability (sorry MM hunters) that's on all pets. Might as well give hunters their brez pets back while they're at it so hunter can be the perfect flex class with good utility.
You mean the buff they took away from feral druids?
Thank you for the amazing insight :D
As an ele shaman i wish we could do more. Im lucky enough to have a group of people to raid with that dont mind what class i play as long as i do mechanics.
cracked me up when you said after warrior you start to get into the weeds lol
Okay, here's a question, if I just do a random dung, what happens if I get all aug evokers? I guess juice the tank? Lol just curious
K e k
Maybe we need to go back to the Cataclysm era raid buffs where a certain buff could be given by more than one classes, like when blessing of the kings was the same as mark of the wild, when both balance druid and warlock could slap a 8% magic damage amp on a target, rogue and feral druid giving 5% crit etc etc
I like the game having class buffs and I think more than one spec providing it would help a lot
NAH
when hunter used to have pet that gives missing raid buff eg atk power, fort, int that was when hunter was useful
A raid buff for like 5% crit or something for party members would be pretty sweet
In classic wow, ele had a spellpower totem. bring that back, buff it up to the levels of Windfury output and u might see some change.
As a Hunter main, I hope blizzard sees this video
Unrelated, but could you please tell me why hunters in my guild have such a hard on for Beast mastery? It sims as the worst spec on most fights yet stick with it
@@MrBlueSleeves not sure if I correctly understood your reply but BM is harder than people give it credit. Literally DH, MM, or even survival is arguably easier than BM which is just tracking frenzy and Beast cleave through a weakaura so it's kind of interactive in that sense vs just click button and go burrrr with no thought. And sims are never the whole story unless the entire raid is standing still the entire time. BM can sim the lowest but can also do their entire rotation on the move which no other class can really do (so 0 down time if the BM hunter can even slightly multi-task). I enjoyed BM but it's underpreforming so badly it feels like (as I really enjoy m+ too) that I tried MM (it was okay) but defaulted back to survival cause it was doing much more dps in keys while the rotation is easier (again, arguably you throw bombs and hit them with a polearm to reset bombs).
@@MarkElf2204 Alright then a preeetty big block of text with 0 line breaks.
1. I didnt say that BM was easier, but if your point is that marksman is played less because it's easier, then sure.
2. I said "sims" but really what I meant is "logs", as they show BM as the worst on most fights, so you can scratch that one.
3. unsure about the last part, don't really understand why that was included in your response
@@MrBlueSleeves It's literally just because it's easy to play. It's significantly easier than Survival and MM. DH is probably close in simplicity as far as rotation but is still harder just due to being melee.
@@Kriddle1229 I guess that since it's easier to play, they get better logs and therefore get better dps. Makes sense
Hunters back than in WoD, when i started with WoW and it was ofc my first class.. SV Hunter.. i got specifically brought to raid (BRF HC Blackhand ofc) for Fox. It was a huge gamechanger for that fight, we had 2-3 huntards bcs of that. Give it back or give smth else actually.
Just give hunter like precision aura and make it give more crit and crit damage
My weird take is that I believe they tried to give hunters that unique utility of something like a warlock, DK, etc... With the sentinel owl talent in the Hunter base talent tree. On paper it sounds cool and unique but in practice I can't think of anywhere it could be used.
What bothers me is that Owl was actually decent on DF Beta (it gave 5% leech AND 10% magic DR) and Blizzard changed it randomly the last second for seemingly no other reason aside from that they hater Hunters I guess?
@@stylaaaniki such a wasted talent. I want so very much for this ability to have any sort of meaning or reason to pick up. But even if owl becomes good it is still a talent point investment over what Dk's and warlocks bring innately.
@@cameronbordeau850 That may be true for Warlock and DK, but many of the specs/classes on this last that have buffs have to take them as a talent. Probably most.
Maybe the idea should be something like Hunters increase the damage of all ranged abilities above 20 meters range by 3 or 5%, and shamans could have some empower bonus for empowered abilities. Like a 1% increase to the buff abilities people have. So like instead of avatar doing 20% damage it'd be 21% damage during it.
Hunter util used to be redirect aggro to tanks on spread out add fights but that is not really a thing anymore
would love some raid stuff for hunters, all i really bring is the fact that i will do the mechanics no one else wants to do lol
to increase class variety in mythic raids what do you think of implementing diminishing returns when bringing same specs into the raid?
As primarily a FFXIV raider and old WoTLK raider, I do like this idea. In FFXIV it's known as the Party Bonus Effect and is done similarly: +1% to Primary Stats per unique role if you have at least 1 Tank, Healer, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, & Caster (total 5%) in your 8-man party. You don't lose this bonus if you have a second of the role (ex. 2 melee), so you can instead focus on spreading your team comp with different classes to get a better burst window timing instead of double dipping. I doubt Blizz will ever incorporate something like this though and will continue with their current "balancing"
Hunter needs a raid CD that isnt worthless like sentinel owl. Gid rid of that and bring back aspect of the fox as a 40yrd aura that gives small amount of movement speed, and then as a talent below that give like greater aspect of the cheetah as an active that gives everyone affected by your fox aspect of the cheetah. The only thing i can think of for shaman is some kind of mana return totem, eg x%of mana spent while the totem is active is returned over x seconds after the totem expires. Dont play enough of ele/resto to know where something like that would slot in.
....Dps shamans can already bring a mana spring totem that gives the healers mana each time they cast lava burst (for ele, idk which ability for enh) :) Bottom left of their tree. It's nifty.
@@madshansen8223 It's absolutely garbage. ~9k mana for an entire encounter. That's like 2 extra flash heals.
at 14:20 you mentioned curses afftect raid bosses!!! do lock curses work on them?
Give hunters a vanilla mark or marksmanship aura (for crit, for example). Like it takes nothing to add underrepresented classes specs some raid buffs as a bare minimum of utility. Instead, blizz just say how much they want each class to have a spot in mythic raid groups.
Elemental shaman should probably get access to windfury or something similar but for range dps. Hunter just need an aspect group buff again
Hi you talked about why you need a 2nd paladin but why bringing 3? Why is one of your tank Pal instead of DH+Monk, giving one more dps spot.
Would making mythic raiding 25 help out raid spots for ele/resto and hunter? Or would you just keep stacking better classes like maybe another mage.
now i know my class well and i dont play at a high level with my hunter but i pump hard with melee hunter usually top dps so seeing that we are bad is kinda nice if we get buffed ima go harder if not then im still fine sure i dont bring utility like the others and i probably havent tried dpsing agianst some of the best players thats why this is so interesting to me
Only 1.8% of dps parses in mythic aberrus (at the time of writing this comment) were ele parses. As a long time ele main I've pretty much entirely lost confidence in what blizzard does to this class in terms of desirable raid utility. It once was a respectable range spec you'd like to bring to a raid nowadays it's basically a meme spec almost nobody still plays. I often arrive at mythic bosses during progress less than a handful of ele players have killed at that point. I remember when i reached diurna mythic last tier in my guild (arround world 150 at that time) there were iirc 3 ele parses on that boss. It's ridiculous and absolutely devastating.
why ? oh never mind i know . typical wow player loves to complain about everything and anything
@@Jim-og9oc *brain rot activates
@@jaded-harper oh did me not parroting your favourite TH-cam that you have a parasocial relationship with, make you feel just like when daddy hit mummy again? Im sorry
@@Jim-og9oc what are u on about lmfao. i dont care 2 shits about max personally he just has a lot of knowledge on wow cause hes a wf raider. its in everyone's that plays this games best interest for blizz to do better. but go off about parasocial relationships homie xD. the circus stage is all yours
@@Jim-og9oc Do you just make up weird ass scenarios like that in your head for fun or...? I hope you find the help you seem to need!
dk tank works really well with proc retribution aura , and the monk could then be a dps no ?
It seems like without even trying. He should have added Devastation/Preservation to the list with Ele/Resto. Augmentation is like Enhancement in the regards that its going to be taking the evoker spot in a raid in a lot of cases. Its hard to imagine if we are making the argument for 2 Augmentation Evokers that you would take a third evoker.
Did you watch the video? He went over why those two specs don't fit what he's talking about. This isn't about which specs are the worst of their class. It's about which ones don't bring a mandatory raid buff / utility. Which Pres/Dev still do. Aug might be a better pick than those two, but if you don't have an aug you'd take a pres/dev. If you didn't have an Enh shaman you wouldn't then take a resto or ele. That's the difference.
would aspect of the fox ( a raid wide spiritwalkers grace ) make hunters more appealing in a raid setting ? i guess it depends on the encounter.
It'd be similar to death grip's utility I think. Almost every raid's gonna have at least one encounter where that'd be really powerful (would be really nice for p1 Sarkareth, for example, to get better DPS while baiting bombs), so you'd probably always want at least one hunter.
no, it will be stacked 8+ times again so ranges can perma cast while moving on all fights. some %stat buff or something like that will be better
@@Dene181could have it work like lust then, can only use once per pull so you gotta time it right.
Well for one it doesn't benefit two of the three hunter specs, and doesn't really benefit Melee at all.
@@grimnir8872 it doesnt have to benefit everyone equally to be valuable. if you have say 10 casters including healers in the raid, then it would be well worth it. and also, i'd say it fits for a bm hunter to cast it, cause he's essentially giving the raid what he specializes at ; contributing while being able to move.
Now we look at my guilds raid comp rarely have a dk and when we do never have 2 for fights like soulrender that was made way easier with 2 ways to group the 4 adds. Rarely has a pally of any type until this expansion when it became super meta. Used to always have a mage but no one wants to play one this expansion. Almost always have a shaman almost never ench. We either have zero warriors or 3 lol. We rarely have a warlock and same for rogue. I think we regularly have 2 hunters have had up to 5 at a one point. Monk buff hasn't been a thing this expansion and wasn't common last. We have one DH for the last 3 years that only shows up about half the time. We are always recruiting but when you clear 4-5 mythic each expansion you basically get no one looking to join your guild and when you do they rarely want to or are skilled enough to push up to a guild that could maybe get CE before the last week or the tier.
This is my biggest problem with the way they are designing classes these days. They want you to fill all these things and that is how they design it but the vast majority I'd guess are in my shoes not CE guilds who could likely fill ever classes fairly easy. Not only are we less skilled but we have to play with harder to reach checks because we can't get people to join to fill those rolls or don't want to force people to reroll to fill a spec/class they may not like. We did try this for mythic painsmith we had a druid go warlock for gate and by the end of the tier she hated logging in so bad she just quit the game completely because she didn't like the class but we were not killing that fight without a gate and we never once had a warlock apply and stay longer then one week.
I think a sick hunter raid spell would be the ability to camouflage your party for a few seconds. This can reduce their damage taken or something. When they pop out, they could have a bit of a haste buff. This could also have a downside of slowing the party while camouflaged and for a few seconds when they pop out, so it has a risk too.
For shamans, a cool ability could be to infuse the party's attacks with frost or fire or some element temporarily and you need to know which bosses are susceptible to these types of attacks and when.
Another idea for the hunter plays off the "hunter/gatherer" trope, where you can cast an ability on 30 min cooldown that spawns some pick-able berries and mushrooms around the raid room that the raid can pick up. They can be randomly distributed and some can be poisonous and some can be a buff, maybe with visual cues. Perhaps they spawn for like 15s and despawn again.
Another for the shaman could be throwing out a circle aoe spell on 15 min cd that changes the ground terrain for 30s. It could be a 1/4 chance of ice where you slip quickly and can ignore los for 10s, 1/4 chance of fire where you take some damage but also get a damage buff, 1/4 chance of earth where you slow down but damage reduction, and 1/4 chance of nature where you heal and also increase healing.
Thanks
Just give more shaman specs group wide buff totems like Windfury, like a flametongue totem that gives a caster oriented buff. Blizzard is going to continually run into this balancing issue until they lean into having some specs lean into the support role, like Augmentation. They copy so much from GW2, why not copy how they handle group comp.
I feel like a hunter buff could just be a like range buff, add 2-5 yards for casts and melee. Simple and might be nice for certain things, like buffing prevokers lol.
@@IcemanB yea a range increase is a sick idea too
@@Thefuhhinfoo yea really good point
Doesn't Augmentation introduce the same problem that exists for ele/resto shaman and hunter to devestation/preservation?
if you end up bringing 2 aug yeah, but if it's only one at the end, then not really.
evoker general utility is still better than what hunter/shamans bring
If Blizzard finally give shaman a 2nd charge on astral shift and give ele skyfury T. for pve content its maybe fine
No, it doesn't.
Im not very well versed in raids but why arent shamans considered to habe buffa when rhey have totems?
More classes need raid cooldowns instead of raid buffs. They serve a similar purpose to raid buffs but with actual strategy and vary in value depending on the fight. As of right now you only ever stack multiple of one class/spec if it is just the strongest in role/damage profile, but with raid cooldowns instead of raid buffs there are more viable strategies in stacking multiple of one spec. Having half of the raid being hard required classes is an issue that can only really be solved by taking raid buffs away or homogenizing them in some way, and adding raid buffs to underused classes only exacerbates the issue
Bloodlust and aimshot are big needs in classic. We want you.
Everytime Max makes these kinds of vids, Blizz listens. Let’s see what comes down the pipe in the next few weeks.
I mean... he did a good job of laying it all out there but I think the issue is pretty well known. I wouldnt hold my breath.
tl;dr, Max suggests hunters and ele shamans always be tuned to do the most damage?
Personally, I think there should be more appreciation for SLT from RSham. It was huge in our Sark kill! Agreed that Hunters need more than just Turtle.
Tbh with the movement of that fight there are only two good points to use slt. Shimmering at the end of p1 and lines p3
SLT is either utterly vital or utterly irrelevant on most fights
What if they made ele shams decrease cast times of casters with a totem.
Id like to see hunters mimic monk physical dam dbuff and shamans get magic dam debuff that could help some
Bro I just need a video now about how the hell to get into 20’s lol. I’m not an spriest so it’s hard out here
They should give hunters a party wide Aspect of the Turtle. Everyone has to stack and move as a unit with the hunter. I feel like that would definitely bring some new flavor to raiding. I would also give shamans the ability to grant 5% damage reduction to an element of their choosing to the raid.
The hunter idea is WAY too op. It would be broken.
like i dont get it, why do they not let hunter bring anything good? either give them a required utility or remove all utilities (which obviously you cannot do latter)
As a restosham main that also enjoys hunters a whole lot with years of exprience playing and raiding with both of them, I am extremely glad that I switched to Evoker and quit raiding for good
My hot take is that casual heroic pugs and normal clears historically see hunters as bm pet auto attacks with a lust and movement. I hope your cool video doesn't get these clowns to ignore blue collar DMG dealers or healers. Time in Q can be the meta.
When Max talked about AMS + death's advance I smiled... because I'm a DK and I know those talents are broken XD But I love 'em anyway!
Member when hunter could fill any raid buff?
God bless max for making this video
my favorite race to world first event was uunat, purely because seeing everyone switch over to having 14 warlocks for drain life bullshit was freaking awesome to see. I understand degenerate play styles can be kind of annoying for the people doing it, but for the viewer it was so exciting.
CAn we get this content into a podcast please, awesome info
What do you do if you play feral druid :(
A good reason to bring Hunters would if Blizzard actually buffed their damage beyond near end-raid MM. I also don't see at all how Aspect of the Fox returning Helps Survival or BM hunters get spots. I have yet to see the justification why Warlocks are allowed to be so strong while also having such high utility.
The Simplest Fix for Elemental shaman is to give them Skyfury Totem. Its already in the game but its only for PvP. bring that into PvE and elemental shamans will always get a spot in raids.
Give hunters like a 2-3% raid crit and call it a day tbh.
I hope blizzard sees this Video Maximum, this needs to be addressed already. As a Elemental Shaman, it sucks that i cant even get into a lot of high +20 keys because Enchancment is just the better spec tbh.
Insightful
Bring back true shot aura as a hunter buff that gives like crit chance or something. And then like… rename mm true shot.
Give hunters stampeeding roar but call it aspect of the pack.
I think the only really viable answer to this issue is to look back into the days of wrath/cata/mop where raid buffs were more homogenized(which would really bring us full circle since that homogenization and classes not feeling as unique or special, was often criticized back then lol).
Since Classic is in Wrath right now, we can use it as an example where for every single raid buff there are AT LEAST 2 different specs(in many cases there are 3) that can bring "x" buff, and many specs bring MORE than one buff since they bring something that is unique to their class, and then often bring another buff that is unique to their spec. And keep in mind that there are WAY more buffs to worry about in Wrath, so the system should be even more effective for retail raiding. Doing this would not only make every class/spec feel useful, but the more significant effect it would have on raiding is on the ROSTER BOSS.
For many lower end mythic guilds(non-CE, maybe trying to get CE) one of the biggest issues is consistently the Roster Boss, and it is made even more difficult when youre adding augmentation to the game since most of these lower-end mythic guilds already struggle to cover(and some dont) all the buffs for an "optimal" raid comp. I know Blizzard says this is only something "top guilds" worry about, but the reality is if they tune Mythic around having all of these buffs, the top guilds are skilled enough to still kill every boss even if they were to hypothetically miss one or two buffs. Whilst its a much greater "debuff" for these lower end mythic guilds to not have a few of them, and its much more likely for those guilds to be missing them in the first place. If every buff in the game could be brought by at least one other spec(maybe even 2 other specs for certain more universal buffs) it would make fielding an optimal raid comp far easier.
I know there are some people who wouldnt be thrilled with homogenization if they mained something like DH, and another spec was also given the 5% magic dmg debuff, but the reality is the mythic raiding scene DESPERATELY needs something like this to help combat the roster boss. Mythic raid is at an all time low in terms of participation, and I think many people dont even consider trying it, or going back to it, which is a real problem.
Your points make a ton of sense...but homoginzation is a huge killer of class identity imo. I think they just need to do a better job of giving each class a unique and valuable buff to make it worth bringing at least one. Too strong of a buff and you bring extras over other classes and if too weak you just don't bring that class ever. Not sure either is the best solution and I don't know what the middle ground is.
@@joshholmes1372 That level of homogenization is completely fine, it hardly comes close to "killing" class identity. The entire reason I didnt suggest for some classes to also be given some type of good, unique buff/ability is that just makes things even more problematic when it comes to raiding. It basically just means that if you want to play optimally, the vast majority of your raid comp would be locked in with little room for parity.
You can look at the breakdown Max did here with what will be "required" to be optimal with Aug evokers, it leaves maybe a few spots open as it is. Now imagine Ele/Hunters/DK/Feral/Balance etc. ALSO brought a unique buff/ability that you wanted in your raid comp....all of the sudden now you now have almost every single raid spot locked in to play optimal. That just isnt a realistic expectation for a lot of guilds.
Hey @maximum just so you know in the last 9 months you're wearing the same shirt for 31% of your thumbnails. Until we meet again!
Interesting that shaman being able to control elements, but can’t handle knocking back.
I'm a hunter and my only use in raid is to reset the boss lol
Mages do that better.
Still waiting for the shaman tank spec... Landslide
Aw man, and I mained both Hunter and Shaman 😢
ele shaman have a great iconic raid buff... in a PVP talent -_-' Skyfury Totem can easily give elemental a raid spot, along the extra windrush. Also the reason ppl say hunters and shamans are the squishiest raid classes is due to the other raid specs that have less defensive layers than shaman or hunter acutally using Versatility as a main stat. atm is quite frequent to see ele hsmans or hunter swith ZERO versa on their gear, making their defensive layers weaker than they were designed to, and its actually blizzard fault for not tweaking them back up to standard. first tier in shadowlands ele shamans main stats were haste + versa, a ele shaman running 25%+ versa was actually normal, it had current warlock levels of tnakiness basically. look at retribution atm: versa in spades, along the newly reworked stuff it makes them immortal. rogue specs, monks, dk, all versa users as top 2 stats. even if their kits werent good enough, they became good due to the versa stacking.
as a ele shaman, for me to retain my place in raid i need to play 2x as good as others, i have to move with more efficiency, avoid any and all kind of dmg that many classes ignore, and all in order to compete in dmg wioth a FLAT dmg profile, no cd's nothing. its pray the fight isnt over in 3.30/4M but in 5 instead so my dmg profile can normalize vs the mages and stuff.
why ele shaman doesnt have skyfury totem as a "mandatory" talent in the talent tree is a freakin mistery to me. one of the most iconic totems along windfury and mana tide for years reduced to a pvp only talent...
as for hunters, the eternal "do mechanics and kiter" that garanteed them raid spots they need a decent raid buff as well, for me its their pet selection that are key here: having the pets bring some buffs like fortitude/mark of wild/rogue poison utility/movement speed buffs are so easy to digest that its stupid why we dont see them often (even if the pet would be a totem runing along the MM hunter, but cmon, mm/survival not having the pets around is another dumb stuff we see and i dont rly understand. locks are better hunter representation than huinters are for a pet class =p)
What they should really be bringing back is the MoP style buff system where multiple classes gave the same buffs, and hunters could slot in any buff via their pets to get everything covered.
NAH
@@HEEHEEBOII YAH
@@diddyboppin69 no because it’s just going back to class pruning and losing identity of the class. People are just gonna have 3 stacks of the same classes again.
@@HEEHEEBOII Better than what we have now.
@@Kriddle1229 nah lol. Right now it’s perfect. Some class balance can be better like back in MoP but no class prune 2.0. That shit was garbage
Hunters Apsect of the Fox. Ele the storm totem done fixed
does Windfury Totem buff DK pets ?
I wish ele shamans brought totems to benefit casters like wind fury does for melee
They had a talent like that back in the day, dont remember the name. But I think it increased their own spellpower by 15% or so.
or they could just drop windfury on the shaman tree and atleast let it flex throughout the specs
@@BIGSLOW. It's not good on ele/resto though, you still wouldn't be considered for the role; it's good on Enhance because they're already in melee and it's both a personal AND raid buff when they use it.
Enhance bringing it iss always gonna be superior, so we're back at square one even if it's "technically" available to the others.
@@BIGSLOW. yeah as a rsham main i would not talent windfury
@@Bladius_ It being a personal buff doesnt really matter tho. They are already balanced with it for themselves in mind. Like priest PI is not better on shadow because it's also a personal buff. Shadow is already balanced around it as a personal buff it's not a buff ON TOP of everything.
Man, I quit playing for like 5 weeks and was like...what the heck does Augmentation mean?
Someone in the chat saying to capitalize monk is so great, lol.
"If we're not seeing some classes or specs represented, then we're going to make changes"
Classes we're not seeing: Hunters, Shamans.
10.1.5 Patch notes for hunter: "Fixed an issue where Scatter Shot would incorrectly stop Spiteful Shades from Mythic+ Spiteful affix from slowly dying."
And for ele shaman: "changed EQ tooltip".
>
I think you hit the nail on the head with hunters and shamans (and DKs to a lesser extent) need to absolutely fuck to get a raid spot, and that's an issue that would require a massive change. Hunters could give a +range buff, but that wouldn't really amount to dick (similar to the evoker buff). Shaman totems should just be group-wide and not tied to a spec (Windfury and Flametongue buffing melee and casters would be nifty) if they don't want to just make a 4th "support" shaman spec.
i hate those marksman rashok charts, marksman currently has one of the highest simulated dmg range in the game, meaning with perfect play you might get 118k by getting no proccs or getting 189k by getting enough proccs and at the correct time
what you see in the charts as "good" hunters are actually hunters that hit the jackpot
you don't want that in a progression raid, you want consistent dmg across several attempts and not for the hunter to get lucky so you meet the dmg requirement
Most people dont even raid mythic and might be raiding in smaller raidgroups which may increase gatekeeping
I feel like those who raid normal/heroic with a group smaller than 20 play with those who are available, regardless of their class.
@@esaesaeesaesa Im happy thats youre experience. My experience is even the casuals mimic the highend for the image of looking like they know what they are doing.
An example would be early this season i joined a +11 on my 2200 rated priest, and i was missing 2 enchants cause i was about to replace those pieces and i was crushing content far higher than 11s. I then got flamed by the 1250 rated tank who then left the group before we inserted the key cause he didnt think i was good enough cause i wasnt using an enchant.
My experience is the better players know how little the gap is, whereas the casuals think think B-tier is unplayable. Its dunning krugers syndrome. Even though in HC it doesnt really matter what the group is comprised of as long as people do their part.
@@zeitz4473 it's not just that.
You have to remember the most basic of human behaviour, simplest path, from a to b.
Why would person a NOT want to have an easier time "statisticly" by not bringing x player, rather than y player.
Since wow is a multiplayer game, your own time is yours, and means YOU are not required to give others your time, same as you are not entiteled to their time.
Due to this fundemental human behaviour, at any time x is better than y, you will in general NEVER want to bring y over x
1st raid of DF we runned 2 DKs as a mandatory, just cause, Hands, AMS and Grips
The Dathea side platforms were simplified so much by having 2 slappy hand boys. Having to kick and group up all those casters while they need to die asap takes too long and feels cringe. We even pugged a 2nd DK that was undergeared during heroic progression just to make the other platform super easy. He did garbage damage, but no one cared, because we didn't bring him for his damage, but because he can press the "let's skip this mechanic" button.
It's hilarious how every time a DK is wanted for a boss, it's because they are so unbelievably good that no one bats an eye if the player is awful. So long as they do the grips right, the raid leader will keep them around until the boss dies.
AMZ is awesome too, but you almost have to bring a Blood or it'll pop before absorbing a whole lot.
remember when shaman had actual totems that mattered? those were good times.
I was top 20-40 in the world during SoD for Elemental and held several rank 1-10 parses for most of the tier. I was very rarely in the first three deaths even on progression and executed mechanics. When I tried to get into ANY guild in the top 200 during Shadowlands and later during Dragonflight, and I applied for over 40, I was denied from nearly every single one because 'You're an Elemental Shaman and you don't bring anything to a raid. We don't need damage, we need utility. Sorry." The ONE guild that accepted my application was on the other side of the US from me, which forced me to play on a shifting 80+ ping, plus I had to stop because I couldn't stay up until 2:00-3:00 AM every raid night and still hold my everyday job.
I've since quit the game entirely because it's next to impossible to get into any high end groups playing my favored class and spec. I had to play the entirety of Dragonflight as Enhance until I recently quit. To push past 2500+ io in M+ or get my CE mythic kills I had to abandon the spec I enjoy just to be able to play the game.
It has been this way for most of my more than a decade plus long raiding 'career' in WoW. So go on Warlocks, Monks, Warriors, Paladins, Rogues, etc. Tell me about your woes of getting into raids. I'm listening.
Just make a raidguild yourself so you will always be in the raid as the lead, problem solved :^)
But yes, raid comps are just dumb these days. It's even happening in m+ for all kinds of key lvls, pretty sad tbh. Had some ele guildmates and they all felt abandoned by blizzard for multiple expansions and raids, so I know how you feel. Sorry m8.
I wonder what the odds are for upping Mythic to 25 next expansion?
Actually, that would solve a few things with the class bloat.
As a DK I don't feel my spot is in jeopardy on a raid roster 25~ strong. We do good damage, cannot die and as Max said...grip is usually mandatory for 1 fight per tier