Not being heard at 100 Watts (
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.ค. 2024
- Dan, KG5WQN, doesn't know what to do. He has a well set up antenna and should be able to use the ham bands, but even at 100 watts he has trouble being heard on the air.
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I remember being just like this guy, SSB I always had trouble making contacts poor signal reports and on occasion some good ones, but FT8, or JS8CALL I was picking off contacts left and right so I stuck to that and very little SSB maybe checking into a net here or there. but beyond that I was always getting poor signal reports, then I added a amp to the setup, rebuilt my antenna and boy was it a game changer, even with my FL-2100b "loafing" at 3-400 watts I'm getting compliments on my signal reports and able to break pileups on the first or second try, something that never happened when I was at 100w. I definitely think he should improve his antenna, maybe change to an inverted L with some radials at 100w. however, an amp may be the solution, there are guys on HF that aren't telling the truth about their setups sometimes.
take the RF choke off the "feed point" to let the coax act as a counterpoise.......... move the choke to just before the coax enters the house (if you think you need an RF choke at all) adding a separate counterpoise wire can't hurt..........73 happy hamming Mike K1FNX near Boston
You're right Mike. That's what catched my attention right away, that antenna has no counterpoise because the choke prevent coax shield of acting like one. Depending of the lenght of that coax, it migth be also be too much of a counterpoise ?? If so, and only then I would had other another counterpoise.
I have myself about the same setup as Dan with an EFHW at about 15-20' height and have great results with 100w on 20m and 40 being with lots of contact in Central and Estern Europe, Africa Coast from Quebec Canada. The only difference being the absence of choke at the feed point.
Pascal VE2ZWI
Bingo! I use a EFHW 80-10 antenna (rated for 2 K and a trap for 75m) and the RF Choke is what grabbed me. I placed my choke on the radio side of my arrestor, allowing the coax to function as part of the antenna (as designed). My antenna starts at about 18' (unun end) and goes about 129' long to an elevation of about 35 feet. My antenna unun is grounded to a ground rod. I have experimented with and without the ground and see no difference in performance (ground is safety). Same using a "counterpoise" from the ground lug. No change. One manufacturer of the EFHW discusses the "counterpoise" theories in detail and says it is a ground. If the antenna, at the unun (aka transformer box), is greater than 20 feet from the ground, not to use a ground wire on the lug, but to just rely on the coax grounding at your arrestor due to "static" build up in the ground wire. I am an RF technician by career and choose to ensure I have it grounded for safety reasons. I am very successful with my antenna. I have worked most continents on 100 watts on 80, 40, 30, 20, 17, 15 and have had good DX on 80 thru 10. I have been using the EFHW in different configurations for quite a while now. The current setup described works extremely well for me. As they say, results may vary. Soil, topography, near by structure(s), vegetation, yada, yada, yada, all way in as factors. Experiment, experiment, experiment. Results=experience. Experience creates knowledge. What an awesome hobby!!!! Good luck and 73 -de Kirk, KN1B
Yeah, at least .05 lambda of the lowest frequency away from the feedpoint. Specifically, I use 9 turns of the coax through 2 240-31 type ferrites. This is more important if the transformer is hanging in the air.
Make sure that your coax cable it's more than 20 meters, for the correct use, because the coax it's a part of the antenna system, in case of EFHW or long wire.
I prefer insert rf-choke outside of my house shack radio.
73 de IZ8FAV
KC1CCG and I do very well with 100W CW on all the HF bands with a G5RV up just 20' . The antenna and its matching is THE most important factor. I exchange reports equal in signal strength with stations running many times my 100W. I am also at the edge of the Atlantic with nice mushy soil, that must help. Worked VK and ZL with this set up. A KW is no substitute for an optimized antenna system.
I keep learning new great practical info Dave. I did not know about too much compression. 🍺👍🤓
ThankYou David!
Might I suggest learning and using CW and of course digital modes. 73/K6SDW
After 57 years in Ham radio last year got my first and last Amp. 811H just love it and makes all the difference in the world with 700 watts PEP. Also made a big difference on my old transceiver, Icom 751 is a bhi DSP amplified speaker. All noise on receive is gone. WB7ORB Also got MFJ 267 PEP SWR Dumby load.
Maybe Dave should do a follow up to see if there has been any improvement.
Dave, he indicated that he was seeing an SWR of around 1.7:1 and he does not discuss the soil composition, therefore I think your antenna height and/or counterpoise recommendation is right on the mark!
Going for my General on Saturday!!
Dave is right on the height. The height of the antenna affects the take off angle of the RF, if it is too close to the ground, it'll be more like an NVIS antenna. The antenna should be at least a 1/4 wave from the ground for the band that is being used. Basically, the higher up the antenna is, the better it'll work, within reason. I certainly agree with Dave that switching to a different antenna such as a Hexbeam might also be an option if height can't be obtained. An amplifier is only something to consider only when the best antenna has been provisioned and deployed, at least IMHO.
I have noticed over the years traveling around the continent here and there you get different contacts and some are these little groups that can be somewhat clicky. In that some just ignore people they don't know. They just don't talk to just anyone or rarely out of their group and tend to just stay on a couple of frequencies. So there could be different aspects of your location or frequency use you might not have considered . The time of day vs the band could play a part as well as certain events too. Some are better at different times and some are not. If you change bands allot and/or are up and down all over the band you could easily miss a contact if you haven't the patience. You ever just sit there and listen. Other than that listen to old Dave here, he knows his stuff .
Don't think an amp is the answer. Remember the SM-30 on the bottom of the base has an adjustment. May need to adjust that especially if you bought it used. Most assurdedly needs an external tuner. LDG IT-100 will do. At 1500 watts if he's getting out at S-9, 375 watts would be S-8 and 100 Watts give your take should be an S-7. 500 watts might get him an extra S unit out. Something else is going on. The 7200 is a long in the tooth radio and something may be wrong with the TX side. Too many operators just jump to having to have an amp turned up to 11 and not know what they are doing. Certainly don't spend that kind of money on an amp without more testing. Have a friend bring their radio over and hook to your antenna. Take your setup out portable out of town for a lower noise floor.... lots of things to try before "you need an amp." 2 cents.
I'm using a efhw antenna with 49/1 transformer and generally if I can hear them I can work them. It is up about 30ft. If he was trying to bust a pile up with 100 watts he probably is spinning his wheels. The best thing about a efhw is it is resonant 0n 10,15, 20, 40 and 80 with no tuner needed, so therefor no wasted power.
Present conditions, I'm occasionally getting 15000 km on 100W SSB on same antenna. Amazing.
I have about the same antenna set up, homebrew 49:1 efhw vertical about 32 feet up from ground level. Results are really good with 100 Watts. My DX Commander also works fantastic. I never use the internal tuner and I have no external tuner, my antenna's are 1.5:1 max so no tuning needed.
I have an Icom-7300 and an EFHW with the ends at 9 feet and the center a little over 20 feet and make plenty of contacts half way around the world. There is something not set right on his radio. WH6FQI
Tune your antenna to the section of the band you want to work in. By tuning I mean design/ cut/ build the antenna to be naturally resonant using an analyzer to test it. EFHWs are advertised as covering all bands but typically in the 75/80m band only cover a small portion of 80m and have unusably high swr in the 75m/ssb section of the band.
Depending on the antenna, one could and a counter poise. I got a MFJ 1982MP EFHW 80-10m set up as an Inverted L.
I've recently added a 20'x1" steel braided grounding wire as a counter poise. Thought it might help me out on 10m SSB (my 7300 struggles at times tuning). While it did give my some more bandwidth on 10m, it also lowered the SWR on 75m. I get a 1.5:1 SWR on 3.880 without a tuner. Anything above that, the SWR increases to a 2:1.
I'd thought I'd share my experience with adding a counter poise to an 80-10m EFHW. It can help out with tuning those bands that are a challenge to tune. I haven't tried a longer or shorter counter poise yet, but I'll try that out later.
73, W4ISB.
By adding a counterpoise you no longer have an EFHW you have converted it to an OCFD. By adding more counterpoise you will eventually create a half wave dipole for the 160m band.
Dave, you always explain everything so well. Thank you. 73 KF0GPX
Alot of times your trying to work an Aligator station that is all mouth and no ears. running 1500 watt stations and crap antennas.
SSB does not go as far as CW or Digital Modes.
It's also possible the propagation from his side is not as good. Meaning he might be on a deadspot. Reason being is that in my case, I've been making contacts all over Europe and even Brazil which is almost 19,000 km from where I'm at and with just a 20 watt radio and a rotary dipole at 19 feet above the ground. With that being said, I can hear hams from the U.S. but they can't hear me. In addition, the terrain on where he is located may also have an effect on his transmission. Thank you sir Dave for your very informative videos.
Thanks for picking interesting questions! It's possible he's using "no brand name" coax that has a high power loss. Before getting or building an amplifier, he might want to (1) try using different coax, and next (2) try using another antenna, unun, & feedline combo. It's possible to work DX, and also get good signal reports on local nets using 100 watts & a wire antenna. I've worked Japan and Portugal from California and I regularly check into 80 & 40 meter phone nets with good signal reports with 100 watts SSB into a 71' end-fed non-resonant sloper with a 9:1 unun, 50' RG8x feedline, and a common more choke on a coax jumper 3' from the transceiver then into the coax feedline. No RF in the shack.
I think he said he was using LMR400 which is a low loss coax!
@@tedclapham4833 Good point, but I'd still try different coax in case the LMR 400 is defective or was an eBay fake.
Amplifiers can also be part of the problem that this Ham is having. Folks running Amps, and talking farther than they can hear! This has gotten really out of hand over the years. Can't remember the rule number but we as Hams are supposed to only use the amount of power needed to make the communication. Any signal over an S9 is using more power than is needed. I gave up years ago on trying for DX contacts because of this. Often if you listen to a QSO that can't hear you, you'll often hear someone say they're running 1500 watts. Not to mention the splatter they cause! This is so discouraging to a new, and old Ham.
I agree Dennis. I have an FT817ND, 5 Watts ssb, and get out fine, okay mostly Europe and not S9 reports back but QRP does work.
G4GHB
That's a big 10-4 good buddy!
I used to operate contests to make contacts with low power and simple antennas. If conditions were good on the second day I could make a lot of contacts.
Good advice, I sometimes have the same trouble, and I'm running around 500 watts. I usually just chalk it up to mother nature, and the gods of the ionosphere not wanting to cooperate with me - because everyone in the world, excluding my wife, wants to converse with me.
I've notice for the last week or so that 80 meters is absolutely horrible, especially around 3.5 - 3.9. Anyone else having that issue?
look up a web SDR and listen while transmitting, that will tell ya if yer "getting out". try close SDRs first and gradualy move away further.
Thumbs up. - But, I couldn't help to giggle as I was sort of in the same predicament; found an SDR station near me, turns out the Ham running it only has an 80-meter doublet antenna on the SDR system thus a signal on 10 meters as he is only about 7 miles away from me was lousy and basically killed my audio that I've spent upwards of $1,200 primarily with W2IHY 8 Band EQ and his EQplus! The Ham with the SDR station is basically being a selfish LID with it rather than putting a proper multiband antenna on it.
KD8EFQ/73
@@charleswoods2996 I may be misunderstanding this but presumably this is a websdr that the guy is allowing access to? Not sure how that makes him a selfish LID.
@@charleswoods2996 Web SDR is full of SDRs around the world. i live in southern Utah, and use the the SaltLake SDR, its about 200 miles away. if i wanted to check my signal in New Zeland, they have one too. 73s
@@g0fvt According to "that Ham" in Stow, Ohio, he "stated" that he only has an 80 meter doublet antenna as HE uses 80 meters primarily for casual QSO's there, so I'm quoting him which I can't help to perceive him as a bit selfish in that respect. Okay? A Web SDR that is capable of receiving and tuning across the bands including the commercial stuff and up to the VLF and ELF bands should have an antenna capable of "multi" band rather than "mono" band.
@@davidmyers397 I was going by what the original poster said here "..trying /close/ (nearby) SDR's, then working your way further away." Okay?
I had never heard, or read, that adding compression(properly adjusted) increases to 40% duty cycle resulting in 3db gain. I usually don't run it on my radio but I might give it a shot again. I'm running a IC-7400 with a SM-5 microphone and with the mic gain on both devices, it hardly seems necessary but it could be nice for some "extra punch" when needed.
the trick of audio compression works by reducing the difference between quieter parts and louder parts. by compressing the dynamic range, you can then turn the whole audio signal up without clipping which results in higher percieved volume of the voice. i am pretty new to radio but i use this heavily when streaming and recording videos and people always compliment on my voice clarity
He might also try a scheduled contact with a nearby ham.
I'd put several counterpoises 90 degrees to the antenna and of the correct length for the lowest band used. For the Chameleon EFHW (has 130 foot wire) at 80m it was 52' radials. The radials should be cut for the lowest band you plan to use. They helped. How you deploy the antenna wire has a HUGE effect on your results. I used a 12m spiderbeam pole to get a sloper or inverted V. When I tried a sloper at 20 feet coming off the house it worked poorly. The antenna was oriented N/S and I hit South America, Spain and England. II even hit Germany once.
Agreed, all this and using only 100 watts. It takes perseverance at times to get your rig properly dialed in. It can be a matter of trial and error and this is certainly the hobby for those who like to tinker and experiment. There is a vast wealth of knowledge out there from those who have done a lot of the legwork for you but it's up to you to take it from there and adjust the antenna as needed. Also perhaps your coax is of poor manufacture. There are many Chinese manufacturers who put steel braid throughout with a copper wash because they don't adhere to any standard. Is your LMR 400 from the original ,manufacturer or some knock off? it may make a difference. 20 feet is too low for your antenna..
it takes a lot of power to overcome a compromised antenna system. I have an endfed antenna... used very little, hard to beat a plain old dipole...
If you use a resonant end fed half wave (EFHW) with a 49:1 or 64:1 broad transformer, performamce and radiation pattern is nearly identical to a dipole.
Performance with a non-resonant end fed or using a 9:1 UNUN can indeed be compromised.
I have a similar antenna in my backyard about 20' up and cannot say I'm not heard on SSB at all. I know what to expect from such antenna by not expecting to have pile-ups when calling CQ or getting on the top 10s in the WPX contest but I'm heard :) Putting it higher certainly helps if you can but don't think height is the main problem not being heard at all. I would check each piece of equipment to see if there is any fault or wrong setting starting with the radio. Check the power output. The power meter on the MFJ will show everage power when you are talking but if you whistle in the mic should go to abt. 100w. Or try on rtty should go full power. Check both meters on the rig and MFJ if showing abt. the same. When tuning the antenna with the MFJ check if the SWR meter on the rig shows also 1:1 when tuned. Next try excluding the MFJ and transmit on part of band(s) where the SWR is 1.5:1 or less if makes a difference. If no change check the coax and antenna. Bad connections or having rf choke if used in wrong place can make troubles. If you can find a local ham few miles away and do some tests with him to give you audio and signal reports while testing. Or maybe you have a websdr nearby you can listen at your signal. Check the websdr map to find out. 73 Andrej - s57rw
I'm at a loss with the station who says he's got a good radio and uses it at 100 watts - and can't be heard. I'm a brand new HF ham. About three months ago I bought a Yaesu FT 710, A Vibroplex 135' endfedz antenna, and later added an MFJ 993-B tuner. I'm in northern NV. My second contact EVER was Australia! That hooked me on HF forever! I've been fooling around with some home-brew antennas now but keep falling back in my long-wire. I've made several DX contacts and hit just about anyone I hear. I'm actually quite impressed with my setup. But then, as I said, I'm new to HF and just about all things HF impress me. Oh, and my long wire parallels my back fence. It's 14' in the air. It would be higher but it parallels the powerlines just above it as well . . . I'm working on improving this whole antenna thing sometime in the future. But as they say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
I’m delighted you’re finding success on HF.
I actually have the same problem. I've used 3 different antennas and two different radios, and most most can either just barely pick me out of the background noise or can't hear me at all.
He should get a PEP reading power/SWR meter so he can see the real output on SSB.
Dave, again these EFHW antennas come with instructions that were written by the engineers of the antenna. If you discuss the Par EFHW or My Antenna's they suggest utilizing either 1) counterpoise of 1/4 wave length and or 2) grounding via a short ground wire to a ground rod (BUT NOT BOTH). There is no situation where you experiment without NOT using either. That is not how the antenna was engineered or how it fundamentally works. Furthermore, utilizing coax as a counterpoise is an extremely poor choice for a home base antenna setup.
How about 20m length of on the ground below your antenna?
The 7200 should have compression. It is newer than the 746 pro.
Using an RF amplifier because you can't be heard is the worst advice possible. Start with the basics of having good quality co-ax that has no damage and good, water tight connections, one of the biggest issues I see is people either knowingly (by being cheap) or unwittingly (advice from shady sales people) ending up with nasty chinesium co-ax, instead of copper they use aluminium for both the driver and shield.
SWR of around 1.7:1 is a problem. Big power loss.. I ran WPX SSB from Alaska this past weekend using 90 watts and a wire set up at 30 feet (the wire I was gifted by you Dave) and made over 120 QSO's including several in Texas (where KG5WQM) is located. He needs to spend some time examining / redoing his antenna and really looking at the radio. Maybe a radio reset is needed to return to functioning settings? There's something seriously wrong....
Not at all. 1.7 SWR is still 93% out. 2 information sources online agree with this figure. I aim to get below 2:1 at least and get out fine with QRP.
G4GHB
When running in a compromised situation, the best way to save $3000 to $6000, is to run CW. I call it "the poor man's amplifier". I've had to run an 8 foot whip, with a tapped coil, on 40 meters. Listened to myself on a web SDR. A barely perceptible ssb signal jumped up to sound like I was running thousands of watts, when I switched to cw.
I couldn't agree more. I too had considered getting an amplifier. However, after I started operating CW, I haven't really had a problem being heard since. Nothing quite like the feeling of putting Australia in your logbook on a (somewhat) compromise antenna running barefoot.
Use cw!
Some 40 years ago I used to go on 80m with 100 Watts ssb and constantly got nowhere, not even locals. I started listening and the conclusion I came to was it was old guys talking to the same old guys for years who then switched off and didn't bother with anyone else. I got out o.k. on other bands.
Now at this QTH 32 years ago I went QRP with 4 Watts cw on 30m and made contacts into Europe, I use 3.560 MHZ and make contacts. Or I did before broadband QRM clobbered the bands. I like 5.262 MHz and get out fine because broadband noise doesn't affect my reception. Even a Pixie on 5.262 with 350 mW out got me an SWL card from the Netherlands at 220 miles and the QSO at 180 miles. Homebrew wire aerials at this QTH and the old one at gutter height so the problem was not aerials.
G4GHB
I feel like there are lot more questions that need to be asked, such as is there anything near the antenna that would affect the performance, is he speaking loudly enough into the microphone, is there a problem with the radio itself, i.e. blow final or bad driver, is he on the right band at the right time of the day, is there any RF feedback, etc? When I transmit my Yaesu FT-891 at 75 watts, my peaks are at 75 watts with no change to the mic gain and no speech compression. When my finals in my Icom IC-7000 went bad the first time, power output went from 100% to about 50%, but still no one could hear me. I would recommend that he try to check into the 7290 Traffic Net as it is very easy to be heard on this net with a NVIS antenna.
Thanks for your comments. My Icom 7200 is less than 4 years old, bought new before they were discontinued. Adding compression helped; I was able to log into a net on 40 meters a couple of days ago and my signal was reported to be very good. I'm still experimenting with compression. I will try the 7290 Traffic Net soon to see how that goes.
@@danielmartin8644 You're welcome. I'm glad you were able to get good reports.
Whatvwad the Sunpot number? Band and time of day of opetation.
Legibility matters.
Is he not being heard locally or DX? Raising antenna helps DX but hurts NVIS.
It is a dilemma. Raising it is problematic on my lot, but not impossible. However, I need to do some communications within a 300-500 mile radius and losing NVIS my hamper that. Adding compression seems to have helped...still experimenting.
Couldn’t WSPR help him see if he is getting out?
Not being heard at 100 watts stop using end fed antennas with 9000 to baluns. G5RV isnt the best but its better than the above. Also if you purchased some comet or do it all vertical throw that out also. Do some work and install the lowest band 1/2 wave dipole up at 30 feet inverted V or flat top and feed it with 350 ohm ladder line and you can and will get out.
Antenna 101 - Height = Might.
Get a Mercury or an Alpha amp
Problem solved up 😁