*Update* As of November 8, 2023 the decision to proceed with the 3 year family medicine program has been halted after a unanimous vote from doctors within the CFPC - th-cam.com/users/redirect?event=backstage_event&redir_token=QUFFLUhqblNMN3I4MUZaTU80aXJ5N2dMTl9rbjRpTnN4Z3xBQ3Jtc0tsUVFZTHFpR3BTTlVOQzJlZTE3VHRfUmdyUWM1emVsb3VZUldXaHRVS1loSmdQYm5POXEzb1phS0VNbmZuaHljRkVsTTRHcERsVFhIRm1TamViMkhaT1pRZGR1X0RYbW41THZxN29Uei1qaDhHbzM3TQ&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cfpc.ca%2Fen%2Fnews-and-events%2Fnews-events%2Fnews-events%2Fnews-releases%2F2023%2Fceasing-third-year-and-response-to-amm-a-message-f%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR30SxYXebgTcrfUGwtEjVcd17Rbwf1akr2cz3amBwLgotA-hJfh9oaoMNk_aem_ATh7w_VK9izW1sFf4EnadsCg0gtrfhp_GssC8QVjnxuwV_qT9WvamSv11GEM2ik-WcE%26mibextid%3DZxz2cZ To anyone who was told earlier this year by their program that the 3 year residency was guaranteed - know that this is not the case 🤙 Also, other points against increasing the family medicine training length: 1) Family doctors trained in Canada are already passing the licensing exam that is taken at the end of residency which suggests that even on a large scale, there isn't a knowledge gap to address. 2) If we increase the residency to 3 years, then what happens to the +1 training programs - do we just make them 3+1 year training programs? What's the difference between a 4 year FM-EM training program vs a 5 year royal college EM residency? 3) What happens to all the family doctors that have already graduated from 2 year residencies? It isn't really possible to send primary care physicians back to residency because then who's going to see all the sick people? 4) If we do increase from 2 to 3 years... do we go through an entire year without any new doctors? Sounds like a recipe for disaster at a systems level since many doctors retire or die every year. 5) If the FM residency program in Canada Is 3 years, are we just going to adopt the American residency structure? Does this further incentivize graduated doctors to leave Canada and work in the south eastern states where on average people will earn more money and pay less taxes Just some fruit for thought :)
hmmmm...As a physician myself in Africa, I just somehow believe no residency should be less than 36 months for many reasons including the knowledge and training to mundane issues like respect and prestige. But I fully understand and really appreciate your points of view.
My retired family doc was a GP before the 2 year family med residency became mandatory. He was a great doctor treating 3 generations of my family. A wonderful doctor and doubt another year or more of residency would have made him any better. Do you really need an undergrad degree and master's before entering med school? In non Canadian counties you can enter a med program right after hi school. In canada we are making our premed students suffer to much (high Univ GPA nearly 100%, MCAT 90+ percentile, Casper top quartile, application essays, massive community volunteering, research publications....) Do we really need all this? I seriously doubt it. Heck undergrad science courses aren't even mandatory for most medschools!
Hi Bill, thanks so much for sharing that :) Similarly, I’ve worked with many doctors who began their practice before the switch to the 2 year residency - which I believe was done in 1993 although I don’t know for certain. I share your thoughts in that I don’t think that an additional 1-2 years of residency for these doctors would have made a difference in their ability to practice. In regards to the growing requirements for premeds - you’re right on the money. It was very competitive when I applied and from what I’ve seen, it keeps getting harder. A masters is not (yet) required, but many students entering medicine do have a masters that they pursued while applying for multiple years in a row before finally getting accepted. In my graduating class, there were also 3-5 students that also had a PhD before even starting medical school. When coupled with MCAT scores, Casper and GPA cutoffs and increasing averages, it seems like we may be doing enough already to barricade the front doors of family medicine without adding on an additional year of residency. All the best!
This is now official for my graduating class of 2027 (we were given a presentation during orientation) and quite a few of my classmates shared the same views as what you’ve presented here. Unfortunate overall
Congrats on getting started 💪 the American system is interesting to me compared to how it’s done here, since FM and IM are both 3 years. Any insights to share from how things are done in the US?
Related point, but what's the value of a medical degree if you can't reliably practice with only it? Requiring a residency on top has always struck me as a sign that the medical school isn't doing its job correctly.
"2 years" is also a perfect-world-only number. As a mature prospective myself, I've already worked a number of years in medical non-profession roles, including most recently part time processing the files of... mmm.... I want to say 80 or 100 residents in a residency training program. The number of students who were two-and-done were by far in the minority. Several took maternity or paternity leave for a few months and had a month of refresh when they came back plus all the time they lost. Family emergencies - a death, a medical crisis - caused a few leaves of absence. Nearly all of them took some variety of vacation after busting their butts so hard to make it that far, which they had to make up at the end. A decent number of them had at least one unit of training (four weeks) that they got a less than stellar score, and had to take additional training in. In one case, they were at 4 years and counting last I saw their file, in large part due to getting pregnant twice during residency. It's pretty unlikely that all these various doctors just took all that time to do nothing and didn't continue studying and bettering themselves. So already, it's 2-and-change on average, BEFORE any extra modules. Life happens to everyone, even students. Adding another year means more time for life events to happen, and the average will be three-and-a-half or four years, not merely 3.... on top of 3-4 years of med school, undergrad, GPA boost years, etc. The real fix (belabouring the obvious): WE NEED MORE MED SCHOOL SLOTS. Forty years of intentionally gatekeeping medicine has come due. Push recognition and "transfer" years for internationally trained doctors from various countries. Open more spots in current schools. Incentivise at least one more med school program, maybe even 2-3 of them. No, standards won't slip dangerously. They'll just go from expecting a 95% average to a 90% average in undergrad. They'll go from accepting 3% of applicants to 5% of applicants. Thousands of potential doctors out there to be found, just give them the chance.
Hi there, unfortunately you cannot work as a doctor in Canada without a PR or citizenship. Please see some of the other videos that I have posted about the routes for IMGs to come and work in Canada and best of luck with everything :)
What are your views on the hospitalist model? My local clinic has closed its walk in clinic doorsxwhich doesnt bode well for those without a family doctor. 😊
Hi Lisa :) In my opinion, I’d love for everyone to have a family doctor and think that we should be doing whatever we can to make this happen since preventative medicine would decrease healthcare spending and continuity of care would increase patient wellness overall. Having said that, we do need places to send people when patients get sick outside of regular clinic hours (ex. 1 am on a Saturday 😅). Ideally I think that a model where acutely sick people go to the emerg, sick but not dangerously so people can go to urgent care or a urgent care center in their hospital, and people who can wait until the next day make an appointment with their family doctor or after hours clinic associated with their family doctor
@@nxtgenmd my facility will need an urgent care center but we also will need to staff it. We are acutely short of all healthcare personnel. And Manitoba recorded a record number of retirees in May. I think getting rid of the high dependence on the MCAT and dropping the rediculous educational requirements for IED would help. I have a coworker who was a physician in Nigeria and he's working as a heslth care aide. Imo I think he'd be a great family doctor.
@@Fiestyredhead67 the issue with trying to find more staff as I currently understand it as that we are moving as quickly as possible without sacrificing quality. We need people to work but need to make sure that the medical school curriculum is robust and that our graduating students are meeting the requirements. For doctors coming from overseas, we need them to be tested so that they meet our standards as in many cases healthcare systems from other parts of the world do not follow evidence based medicine or our definitions of patient entered care. This is the bottle neck, I've been told. I try my best to teach medical students with the university and many students struggle to get through the material and exams. It's a very long, strenuous path that's very important to get through so that when we finish, we can actually help people. Rock and a hard place situation, but we do graduate many students every year already. Many go unmatched instead of applying to family medicine. It would be nice to build interest in primary care and incentivize the specialty further.
They’ve given a 2027 soft deadline where changes are expected to start to occur. However, I believe that this was before a variety of roadblocks began to arise. In any case, the debate is ongoing and I suspect that the 2 year programs will continue so long as the pushback is there
Congrats on being done with step dude! I hope it went well for you and the good news is, at least you get a well earned break for a little while 💪 I’m sure you’re gonna have an awesome time at Mayo. Is it for internal med?
![เป็นไปได้ไหม - WanMai [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_6lZ6b3_7Vo/mqdefault.jpg)
*Update* As of November 8, 2023 the decision to proceed with the 3 year family medicine program has been halted after a unanimous vote from doctors within the CFPC - th-cam.com/users/redirect?event=backstage_event&redir_token=QUFFLUhqblNMN3I4MUZaTU80aXJ5N2dMTl9rbjRpTnN4Z3xBQ3Jtc0tsUVFZTHFpR3BTTlVOQzJlZTE3VHRfUmdyUWM1emVsb3VZUldXaHRVS1loSmdQYm5POXEzb1phS0VNbmZuaHljRkVsTTRHcERsVFhIRm1TamViMkhaT1pRZGR1X0RYbW41THZxN29Uei1qaDhHbzM3TQ&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cfpc.ca%2Fen%2Fnews-and-events%2Fnews-events%2Fnews-events%2Fnews-releases%2F2023%2Fceasing-third-year-and-response-to-amm-a-message-f%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR30SxYXebgTcrfUGwtEjVcd17Rbwf1akr2cz3amBwLgotA-hJfh9oaoMNk_aem_ATh7w_VK9izW1sFf4EnadsCg0gtrfhp_GssC8QVjnxuwV_qT9WvamSv11GEM2ik-WcE%26mibextid%3DZxz2cZ
To anyone who was told earlier this year by their program that the 3 year residency was guaranteed - know that this is not the case 🤙
Also,
other points against increasing the family medicine training length:
1) Family doctors trained in Canada are already passing the licensing exam that is taken at the end of residency which suggests that even on a large scale, there isn't a knowledge gap to address.
2) If we increase the residency to 3 years, then what happens to the +1 training programs - do we just make them 3+1 year training programs? What's the difference between a 4 year FM-EM training program vs a 5 year royal college EM residency?
3) What happens to all the family doctors that have already graduated from 2 year residencies? It isn't really possible to send primary care physicians back to residency because then who's going to see all the sick people?
4) If we do increase from 2 to 3 years... do we go through an entire year without any new doctors? Sounds like a recipe for disaster at a systems level since many doctors retire or die every year.
5) If the FM residency program in Canada Is 3 years, are we just going to adopt the American residency structure? Does this further incentivize graduated doctors to leave Canada and work in the south eastern states where on average people will earn more money and pay less taxes
Just some fruit for thought :)
hmmmm...As a physician myself in Africa, I just somehow believe no residency should be less than 36 months for many reasons including the knowledge and training to mundane issues like respect and prestige. But I fully understand and really appreciate your points of view.
My retired family doc was a GP before the 2 year family med residency became mandatory. He was a great doctor treating 3 generations of my family. A wonderful doctor and doubt another year or more of residency would have made him any better.
Do you really need an undergrad degree and master's before entering med school? In non Canadian counties you can enter a med program right after hi school.
In canada we are making our premed students suffer to much (high Univ GPA nearly 100%, MCAT 90+ percentile, Casper top quartile, application essays, massive community volunteering, research publications....)
Do we really need all this? I seriously doubt it. Heck undergrad science courses aren't even mandatory for most medschools!
Hi Bill, thanks so much for sharing that :) Similarly, I’ve worked with many doctors who began their practice before the switch to the 2 year residency - which I believe was done in 1993 although I don’t know for certain. I share your thoughts in that I don’t think that an additional 1-2 years of residency for these doctors would have made a difference in their ability to practice.
In regards to the growing requirements for premeds - you’re right on the money. It was very competitive when I applied and from what I’ve seen, it keeps getting harder. A masters is not (yet) required, but many students entering medicine do have a masters that they pursued while applying for multiple years in a row before finally getting accepted. In my graduating class, there were also 3-5 students that also had a PhD before even starting medical school. When coupled with MCAT scores, Casper and GPA cutoffs and increasing averages, it seems like we may be doing enough already to barricade the front doors of family medicine without adding on an additional year of residency.
All the best!
This is now official for my graduating class of 2027 (we were given a presentation during orientation) and quite a few of my classmates shared the same views as what you’ve presented here. Unfortunate overall
As a Finance background and wanting to career switch in family medecine I 100% agree...
Crazy. I’m in the US and about to smart med school myself and our Family Med residency is 3 years😅
Congrats on getting started 💪 the American system is interesting to me compared to how it’s done here, since FM and IM are both 3 years. Any insights to share from how things are done in the US?
Related point, but what's the value of a medical degree if you can't reliably practice with only it? Requiring a residency on top has always struck me as a sign that the medical school isn't doing its job correctly.
"2 years" is also a perfect-world-only number.
As a mature prospective myself, I've already worked a number of years in medical non-profession roles, including most recently part time processing the files of... mmm.... I want to say 80 or 100 residents in a residency training program. The number of students who were two-and-done were by far in the minority. Several took maternity or paternity leave for a few months and had a month of refresh when they came back plus all the time they lost. Family emergencies - a death, a medical crisis - caused a few leaves of absence. Nearly all of them took some variety of vacation after busting their butts so hard to make it that far, which they had to make up at the end. A decent number of them had at least one unit of training (four weeks) that they got a less than stellar score, and had to take additional training in. In one case, they were at 4 years and counting last I saw their file, in large part due to getting pregnant twice during residency. It's pretty unlikely that all these various doctors just took all that time to do nothing and didn't continue studying and bettering themselves.
So already, it's 2-and-change on average, BEFORE any extra modules. Life happens to everyone, even students. Adding another year means more time for life events to happen, and the average will be three-and-a-half or four years, not merely 3.... on top of 3-4 years of med school, undergrad, GPA boost years, etc.
The real fix (belabouring the obvious): WE NEED MORE MED SCHOOL SLOTS. Forty years of intentionally gatekeeping medicine has come due. Push recognition and "transfer" years for internationally trained doctors from various countries. Open more spots in current schools. Incentivise at least one more med school program, maybe even 2-3 of them. No, standards won't slip dangerously. They'll just go from expecting a 95% average to a 90% average in undergrad. They'll go from accepting 3% of applicants to 5% of applicants. Thousands of potential doctors out there to be found, just give them the chance.
I want to become a orthologist in Canada from india what I have to do I have heard without a pr it's very expensive :-(
Hi there, unfortunately you cannot work as a doctor in Canada without a PR or citizenship. Please see some of the other videos that I have posted about the routes for IMGs to come and work in Canada and best of luck with everything :)
@@nxtgenmd sure Thanku so much :-)♥
What are your views on the hospitalist model? My local clinic has closed its walk in clinic doorsxwhich doesnt bode well for those without a family doctor. 😊
Hi Lisa :) In my opinion, I’d love for everyone to have a family doctor and think that we should be doing whatever we can to make this happen since preventative medicine would decrease healthcare spending and continuity of care would increase patient wellness overall. Having said that, we do need places to send people when patients get sick outside of regular clinic hours (ex. 1 am on a Saturday 😅).
Ideally I think that a model where acutely sick people go to the emerg, sick but not dangerously so people can go to urgent care or a urgent care center in their hospital, and people who can wait until the next day make an appointment with their family doctor or after hours clinic associated with their family doctor
@@nxtgenmd my facility will need an urgent care center but we also will need to staff it. We are acutely short of all healthcare personnel. And Manitoba recorded a record number of retirees in May. I think getting rid of the high dependence on the MCAT and dropping the rediculous educational requirements for IED would help. I have a coworker who was a physician in Nigeria and he's working as a heslth care aide. Imo I think he'd be a great family doctor.
@@Fiestyredhead67 the issue with trying to find more staff as I currently understand it as that we are moving as quickly as possible without sacrificing quality. We need people to work but need to make sure that the medical school curriculum is robust and that our graduating students are meeting the requirements. For doctors coming from overseas, we need them to be tested so that they meet our standards as in many cases healthcare systems from other parts of the world do not follow evidence based medicine or our definitions of patient entered care. This is the bottle neck, I've been told. I try my best to teach medical students with the university and many students struggle to get through the material and exams. It's a very long, strenuous path that's very important to get through so that when we finish, we can actually help people. Rock and a hard place situation, but we do graduate many students every year already. Many go unmatched instead of applying to family medicine. It would be nice to build interest in primary care and incentivize the specialty further.
interesting, i thought they already passed this and that it was happening for sure. good to know its still to be decided
They’ve given a 2027 soft deadline where changes are expected to start to occur. However, I believe that this was before a variety of roadblocks began to arise. In any case, the debate is ongoing and I suspect that the 2 year programs will continue so long as the pushback is there
which med school did you attend? thanks for your videos
McMaster University in Ontario :) thank you!
Yeah Canada would really shoot themselves in the foot with this one.
Done step 2 starting an elective at mayo soon
🦾
Congrats on being done with step dude! I hope it went well for you and the good news is, at least you get a well earned break for a little while 💪 I’m sure you’re gonna have an awesome time at Mayo. Is it for internal med?
@@nxtgenmd yup an ICU elective. Just finished my first day great place, great people, excited to learn.
❤❤