@@brannenpfister2579it’s a small benefit but you could also use the slow weapon mastery with the club, lessening the chance your target could get out of range. Or take pact weapon short sword and use vex for advantage.
@@gregcheese13 I think i will work, as you do not use the magic action: " you can cast one of your cantrip that has a casting time of an action in place of one of those attacks."
@@gregcheese13 Incorrect. Valor Bard’s extra attack feature lets you replace an attack with a cantrip. So, you action surge and take the attack action to proc extra attack, and then replace the attack with eldritch blast. It’s all very legal.
Oh snap, I just recorded my own version of this... I wonder how similar ours will be...? (And for those wondering how I saw this 10 days before the video actually posted, it's because I'm a Patron of Treantmonk's Temple and so I got early access! Best $3 a month I ever spent!)
Reversing Spirit Shroud's scaling from 1 die every 2 spell levels to 2 dice every 1 spell level is such a headscratcher. Surely they had to have known how this would end up, right? Surely they got feedback on how this was too good?
Deadlines. That's how this stuff slips through. 5.24 needed another 3-6 months in the oven but they needed to get this out for the 50th anniversary for marketing purposes. The beating they'd take from a delay would most likely be worse than the beating they're taking from this.
@@mr.thurston7476 Yeah. That's how business works. You need to hit deadlines. Also, all projects could use "3-6 more months" but most projects need to be economical.
@@foldionepapyrus3441 You have NO IDEA what you're talking about. The people who got laid off were mostly marketing types and middle managers. The team designing the new books didn't lose people. They bulked up.
I hope so. But the 5e crew never released errata that actually corrects mechanics only spellings or wordings. They seem to be too afraid to admit they made mistakes.
@@RaoGung They did eventually issue errata for Healing Spirit (from Xanathar's Guide to Everything), which was unintentionally overpowered in a similar way to this one. So there's precedent.
@@RaoGung There absolutely is precedent for this among WotC Errata. A couple unmistakable examples were the errata to the Hadozee Glide trait which was massively (and rightly) nerfed in the errata for the Astral Adventurer's Guide, and the needed nerf to Winged Tiefling flight in the SCAG errata. A couple examples of _buffs_ by errata were to Thri-Kreen telepathy and War Domain Cleric's capstone, Avatar of Battle.
@@Baraz_Red You're right, but it may still receive errata. Something broken on _this level_ of magnitude is still a game design editorial error (like the Hadozee Glide which was nerfed by errata).
Chris identifying 5.24's "hexblade dip" meme real early! Thanks for the suggested fix, if I end up getting into some games I'll definitely be recommending this to any of my DMs that end up frustrated by this option stealing the limelight! A shame they didn't have time or bandwidth to do playtesting to shore up this glaring divide.
Except that they did run CME through playtesting. Received a lot of criticism. Then proceeded to publish the playtest version unchanged. Head-scratching.
You're being so un-generous. The 2024 ruleset is shockingly good, with improvements to the game all over the place. It's not perfect. They made a mistake. But overall they have done an incredible job. Better than I expected.
@@hawkname1234 it is not even clsoe to acceptable, it is horrendously playtested, baffling design decisions, and absolutely greedy to demand full price for what is essentialyl a patch. Like, this is just a collection of balance changes(mostly buffs) for classes and the remaining changes are all mostly awful
@@hawkname1234it is better than before, but boy I expected so much more. With 10 years of ideas and feedback, they couldn't muster a single new fighting style, a single different mastery from the playtest that was a year ago, barely any new spells, and among many other things, left out a few extremely obvious oddities such as the spell in the video. If it was a single thing, I would see it like you do, but it's not. I could cite many more
It must've been the ol' brain fart spoonerism switcheroo: 1d8 for every 2 slot levels → 2d8 for every 1 slot level. Like a blushing crow → a crushing blow. A tale of two cities → ...
Nope, the current upscaling makes perfect sense if you assume only a druid or a wizard with only 1 attack per turn would ever cast the spell and must use a whole turn for set up. Which as written are the only classes that get access to it. The "problem", though WotC might consider it a feature, occurs with multiclassing to get more attacks, and Valor Bards being able to get it through magical secrets. However, it seems like WotC have decided that some builds being broken is just a-okay since they did nothing at all to nerf Sorlock.
@@agilemind6241It’s still a problem for a regular old wizard. Upcast CME + upcast Scorching Ray. Just keep piling on damage until the problem is solved. Hundreds of points of damage per round.
@@avsabari1263 My fix would be: You conjure spirits from the Elemental Planes that flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration. The Emanation is considered Difficult Terrain for your enemies. Until the spell ends, the spirits fight for you, and you can use your Bonus Action to make a melee magic attack against one creature in the Emanation. On a hit, you deal 2d8 damage that is Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack). You can also make this attack using a Reaction when a creature you can see or hear ends its turn in the Emanation. The damage increases by 2d8 for each spell slot level above 4.
I've said it before, but it's pretty clear that before they could get a serious pass at balancing spells they passed out layoff notices. Fingers crossed for 6e in 10 years.
Why are people in the TTRPG community so incredibly dishonest? They did NOT lay off the team building the new edition. If anything, they bulked it up with contractors. WHY are all of these people morally okay with their outright lying?! Intellectual dishonest is a huge, endemic integrity problem in the whole TTRPG community.
Do you have plans for an updated baseline? I believe you've mentioned that the new ruleset generally has better dpr, do you have plans for changing your baseline?
Yeah was it during the playtest fighter (or Barb) video that TM mentioned the champion fighter could be the new baseline? Could be wrong. But that would be very interesting.
That's kinda screwy, but is that the biggest damage outlier you can get out of the 2024 edition with a build or is this just an harbinger of shenanigans to come? Scary stuff. Also, while I've loved and agreed with the warlock baseline, might we need a closer look at how it performs in 2024 as things change and start settling in?
I did some math to see what's more important for Conjure Minor Elementals - number of attacks or accuracy of attacks. I came up with the idea that instead of maximizing the number of attacks by using Eldritch Blast, it's better to go the route where you have "only" 4 attacks that are almost certain. Sure, a huge number of attacks through Eldritch Blast will give you big results with Conjure Minor Elementals, but a lot of those attacks will miss (you have to multiply the average damage by the probability of a hit). From my calculations, you'll get statistically more average damage per round if you make sure all 4 attacks with CME hit. Here's how to do it (1 Fighter / 1-19 Valor Bard): 1. Choose Elf/Shadar-kai/Eldarin as your race (you know where this is going). 2. Take Magic Initiate as your Origin feat to get Find Familiar and Booming Blade (you can later get Find Familiar from Magical Secrets, and switch Magic Initiate to Shield or Absorb Elements to get one more cast). 3. Start as 1st level in Fighter to have weapon mastery for shortsword and scimitar, as well as Two-weapon Fighting Style, Constitution saving throw proficiency. 4. Fight using shortsword + scimitar. Max Dexterity instead of Charisma (Charisma probably stays at 16). 5. At 4th level, take Elven Accuracy with +1 to Dexterity (you already have 18 Dexterity). 6. At 15th level (1 Fighter / 14 Valor Bard), you already have 4 attacks: 3 as Actions and 1 as Bonus Action thanks to Battle Magic. Result: First attack: You have triple advantage thanks to Find Familiar and Elven Accuracy. You swap this attack for Booming Blade. Big Boom. Attack with shortsword with Vex. Second attack: You use Battle Magic (bonus action) because you cast a spell this turn that has a casting time of one action. You have triple advantage due to Vex from the previous hit and Elven Accuracy. You attack with a shortsword with Vex. Third attack: You have Extra Attack, so you make another strike. You have triple advantage due to Vex from the previous hit and Elven Accuracy. You attack with a shortsword with Vex. Fourth attack: You have scimitar from Nick, so you make another strike. You have triple advantage due to Vex from the previous hit and Elven Accuracy. You attack with a scimitar with Nick. If you are below level 11, you can use Fount of Moonlight instead of Conjure Minor Elementals. Also, if you need to focus on CC (e.g. Hypnotic Pattern / Wall of Force), your damage will still be very high. Also, you can assume that your weapons are magical (e.g. Flame Tonge shortsword/scimitar), which is not the case with Eldritch Blast.
That sounds like fun shenanigans, but there are two problems. First, both are concentration spells. Second, AO’s attacks aren’t yours - each object is a construct with hit points. CME’s range is “self.” I agree it would be a lot of fun, though!
@@kikstand2011 I would need to check the description for MM, but I’m not sure it’s an attack, as it’s auto-hit. That also sounds like fun, but I would check the wording.
Blade singer wizard. Eldritch blast from Human feat. At level 11 you got 1 attack and 3 beams. Blade song for concentration and movement. No dips needed and you get 6th level conjure minor elemental
I am glad you pointed out foresight, it is what I was saying on othervideoes on topic that 8th+foresight is more broken than level 9 CME, pluswith the 8 hoursyou can still cast 7, and 6 level CME for other encounters and keep theforesight benefits.
หลายเดือนก่อน +2
Even without Conjure Minor Elementals, Valor Bard with a Pact of the Blade dip seems super strong.
this one hit me in waves. at first glance "eh it seems like a good spell but wizard and druid only, they don't even get extra attack?" then i realized "oh wait bard, ok so maybe there's something here?" eldritch blast didn't even occur to me. yikes. like reading the spell i *picture* melee attacks or weapon attacks but... it doesn't say that. oof. this one breaks wide open.
I noticed the same thing 😅 I was going to house rule that it only works once per turn, rather than changing the scaling. This way it works well on a character making only one attack per round.
My fix: You conjure spirits from the Elemental Planes that flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration. The Emanation is considered Difficult Terrain for your enemies. Until the spell ends, the spirits fight for you, and you can use your Bonus Action to make a melee magic attack against one creature in the Emanation. On a hit, you deal 2d8 damage that is Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack). You can also make this attack using a Reaction when a creature you can see or hear ends its turn in the Emanation. The damage increases by 2d8 for each spell slot level above 4.
@@DukeTrout Well I would consider Scorching Ray 1 spell that makes multiple attacks. so the first HIT from the spell would do 2d6 + additional 2d8 damage(+2d8 per level) while the others successful attacks with the spell would do their normal 2d6 points of fire damage.
Shillelagh has a casting time of a bonus action. So it does not qualify for the lvl 6 extra attack valor bard feature, right? That only applies to cantrips with a casting time of an action. So i am confused about the action economy at lvl 11: BA Shillelagh, Attack action with 3 eldritch blasts because that cantrip qualifies and as a second strike we use the club. Why do we get another bonus action for the pact weapon attack? we used our bonus action already. Are you saying, we get a separate second bonus action? Also, don't we need another bonus action to conjure the pact weapon? Are you saying we get three bonus actions in the same turn? That can't be accurate, can it?
This is certainly a decisive result, but it is becoming more and more apparent that the new rulesare going to be significant closer to 3.5e in the wide gap between optimized and unoptimized characters. Some people may be excited about this, but im worried
@Treantmonk's Temple I don't like this fix because it doesn't address use cases where its just single class druid or wizard. Especially druid where its pretty balanced on them as they cant hit dozens of times in a round. A MUCH BETTER fix would just change it to be allowed to proc 2 MAYBE(probably not) 3 times a turn. They still have to be close range as well. And allows characters like Sword and board druid or wild shape druid to use it with out being overly penalized from your change. Also limits 4 attacks per round from the bladsinger+shortsword+dagger and 1 level of ranger combo.
Here's hoping you add the "Temp HP disappears when the effect providing it ends" houserule to your list, because otherwise Polymorph and Wildshape are going to be pretty nutty...
Even a (mostly) single class wizard can use this with scorching ray. First level as fighter, pick up spell sniper, warcaster, elemental adept, and maybe flames of phlegathos, and you can just go to town. You can even cast scorching ray infinitely at wizard 17.
A much more simple example would be Magic Missile. It's 3 attacks at level 1. If you upcast it at level 8, that's 10 attacks, all of which add the bonus damage. If you spent your level 9 spell on CME, that's +12d8 per attack, or 120d8s on a Magic Missile that cannot miss. (575 average damage, including the missile damage.) IMO your solution - lowering the bonus damage - doesn't fully solve the problem, because the main problem is from the scaling of attacks per spell usage, not the additional damage per each attack. +4d8 per attack is still broken when you have tons of attacks. Limiting it to at most two attacks per turn would be better, or maybe one attack per turn but up the damage slightly.
It's like WotC forgot that some bard subclasses get Extra Attack, I think the fix too this one is pretty simple and it's not the scaling, it's limiting it too once/turn, probably something like, "The first time you hit a creature on a turn..."
There's a slight increase in damage to be had if someone else applies Foresight to you, allowing you to use your 9th-level slot on CME. Still, wild build. Makes Spirit Shroud look like baby's damage
I get that in a vacuum this does a lot of damage. In practice though, we are talking about a level 11 character in light armor (not sure if Valor bard gets better armor from Subclass), without abnormal CON investment, without a shield, taking a setup round to use their highest level spell slot and their concentration and going into melee range. Sure you have warcaster, but against creatures you would be facing at level 11 I still think it is very unreliable that you can keep concentration through the setup round, or for that long during combat.
Valor Bards do get medium armor, and if you’re really worried about your defense you can get the shield spell from an origin feat, or some other defensive feature from your species. Enemies are only going to live 1 round anyways 😅
I kinda feel like this was created this way to actually keep it competitive with other spells after 5th level. Now, it's clearly still very broken, and an unfortunate no brainer spell option right now. But as a player that's planning to incorporate this on my Bladesinger Wizard, I still feel like I'm not wanting to cast this much past level 5. I don't want to burn all of those big spell slots on just "moar damage". Not to say that I never would, but not often. That said, as a player I was planning on nerfing this myself as well, but down to 1d8 per spell level, not 1d8 per two levels. It's an action to cast, and still Concentration, so I think it brings it more in line IMO. Appreciate the insight though Chris! I forgot about Eldritch Blast... I wouldn't do that to my DM lol.
This isn't even hard to catch. As soon as I saw the spell I started to look for a gish with as many attack per round as possible. Weird overlook for sure
I dont think its a bid deal already he is talking about a lvl 11 toon with a muliti class the only problem i see is if you have a power gamer at your table do you really think this is worse the the old infinite wizard combo and how many tables really had that happen
I think I would fix it not by changing the scaling, but limiting the damage to ounce per round per target, to greatly reduce it's scaling based on spamming attacks without meaningfully making it worse for the standard wizard/druid
I wonder what will be the DPR with the House rules. Maybe good house rule will be to add the hit with the melee attack. That way you eliminate the eldritch blast extra attack
I think that if there's ever official errata to this spell, it'll likely leave the scaling the same but limit the damage to once per turn. Not saying that makes any more or less sense from a balance perspective, but it strikes me as more likely that the designers wanted the damage number to feel chunky and just didn't account for a multiclassed Valor Bard getting 5+ "attacks" in a turn with this spell running.
Honestly, instead of House ruling this, I think I would have a conversation with my players during session zero and clarify this falls under the coffee-lock type of builds, a thing you are min maxing to break scaling and would simply say that build isn't available. On a wizard with one or two attacks, this is fine, strong but not completely bonkers. It is better on a druid as they can use it with wild shape and more reliably hit twice, while feeling more comfortable on the front line. So without sheleighleigh and pact of the blade and 3 or 4 attacks, this is much less of a problem, which is why it is only available to druid and wizard. This is not as broken as spike growth and all the methods for grappling and pushing we now have, for example. I am more likely to require a 2nd level spell for silvery barbs than nerf this, so long as they don't explicitly build around it due to communication at session zero. At least, that is my thought.
But why let it scale so much better than Spirit Shroud, which was already a decent spell to consider even before the new Nick property and Dual Wielder feat?
@SortKaffe I do not agree that they should have let it scale like this, especially after being flagged in playtest. However, if just wiz or Druid uses it, it is not as much of a problem. If you only have the ability to normally trigger it once and maybe trigger it twice, it just isn't that much damage, especially when you are putting someone squishy on the front line. Thinking about it further, if you were order of scribes, you could magic missile with it on you manifest mind, which would also be pretty busted. Though I think their thought was those classes couldn't really benefit from it nearly so much, so they made it scale. I think if that was the argument, they could have made it scale with just having a single larger die instead of more dice. Generally, though, if everyone is playing to not break the game, this shouldn't be a problem.
Altough i agree it is pretty damm powerful... i don't think it's fair comparing it to hex + eldritch blast, hex is a spell that doesn't upcast damege, it isn't worthit at those levels, it would be fair if you compare with other higher level spells.
Would “once per turn” be a simpler way to fix this? I think the problem is how many attacks we can get. It would still be very strong to upcast but at 9th level it would add 12d8 (54 avg) per round which isn’t unreasonable at that spell slot level. Seems easier to remember too
Wow... even limiting that "To can only be applied once per creature per turn just means "You get an eldritch blast, you get an EB, you get an EB, and you two targets in my face get the melee wpn attacks." I mean the only other option is to rule that it only applies on the first successful attack per round.
So I paused the vid at the start when I made the following after just reading the spell! 1 level fighter two-weapon fighting style, Magic Initiate shillelagh(origin feat) +scimitar, 19 levels Bladesinger! Fun to see I was wrong!
If you go Sorcerer 3+ - Bladesinger 7+, you can activate Innate Sorcery for Scorching Ray and make a bunch of CME-boosted attacks with advantage. The build is insane starting from level 10, but becomes, as expected, more and more ridiculous the higher level you are. I crunched numbers, and should you go all-in at level 17 against a 19 AC, you can expect 2080 damage after 5 rounds: - Round 1: cast CME at 9th level and activate Innate Sorcery - Round 2: Scorching Ray at 8th level + Quickened Firebolt, 609 Damage in average - Round 3: Scorching Ray at 7th level + Quickened Firebolt, +550 Damage in average - Round 4: Scorching Ray at 6th level + Quickened Firebolt, +490 Damage in average - Round 5: Scorching Ray at 5th level + Quickened Firebolt, +431 Damage in average All of this to say, I hope WotC make an errata soon enough, because the Spellcasters-Martial divide has never been that big since CME came out.
For what it's worth, Innate Sorcery only gives you advantage on Sorcerer spells. Meaning you'd need to pick up Scorching Ray as a Sorcerer and when you cast it you will use Charisma for your spell attack bonus. So if you've focused on Charisma you're not a great Wizard, and if you focused on INT your hit chance will be much lower. However you can solve this just by going Bard and picking up CME with Magical Secrets.
@@PiroMunkie Yep indeed, 3 levels is for the scorching ray as a sorcerer :) was just focusing on damage here, exploring possibilities. In game, Valor Bard would be better but CME would come 3 levels later
Do you still round down when multiclassing a half caster and determining spell slots? I am wondering if a 1 level Paladin dip or Ranger dip for weapon masteries would still progress spell slots a level.
I'm too new to know, but is a "15ft emanation" a cone, sphere, radius, etc? Also, when it Eldritch Blast says 2 beams at level 5 - doesn't that assume you've taken 5 levels of Warlock (not that your character is level 5)?
I agree that CME scales too well with many attacks. But the proposed fix in the video makes it too weak in non-edge cases (less than 4+ attacks per turn) and a fix like limiting the extra damage to once per turn makes it too weak in general. Compare CME e.g. with Spirit Guardians. With the proposed fix, you need to hit 2*X times to deal as much extra damage as SG against X creatures (e.g. 4 hits to break even against 2 creatures), and SG also deals damage on a failed save. Imho a better fix would be to apply the proposed fix (scaling by 1d8 every 2 slot levels) and then adding something like "The first time you deal that extra damage each turn, it is doubled." to the spell.
If you restrict the Spell to just actual Druids and Wizards, how does it function "As is"? Is there anything that offers multiple attacks per round to the same scope? All that comes to mind without doing a deep dive is Scorching Ray really (nothing to the same repeatable level as a Cantrip + Melee attacks)
What about something along the lines of adding “A creature may only take this damage once a turn.” to the spell? If you have 6 creatures within 15ft of you then it’s still doing bonkers damage but won’t invalidate any boss fights.
Honestly, as a DM I am fine with that. The more powerful my players get, the bigger the Monsters I can throw at them. And in the end, you are a Bard in melee, so you better pray that whatever you hit is dead and cant say "ok, my turn now!" afterwards...
I would like to see how high other single target damage builds get for a more relevant comparison. Weapon users and many martial classes have considerably been buffed and this is not reflected in a comparison to a baseline that is based on warlock and hasnt changed.
I think you can't summon a Shillelagh as part of the extra attack feature of the valor bard because the casting time is a Bonus action and not an action. So I don't understand your action economy, does it work that way? 1st round Magic action: cast CME bonus action: cast shillelagh (summon the club) DPR = 0 2nd round and after Attack action: one swing with shillelagh + Eldritch blast as part of the valor bard extra attack Bonus action: off hand light weapon swing DPR as calculated in your video
I think the spell is fine as is for wizards and druids who aren't ideal in melee. Do you think the bladesinger can abuse it to the same degree the Valor bard can? Is it broken for the bladesinger? Does it just make the bladesinger viable in melee at mid to higher levels? It seems like those might be the only two classes that can get the most out of this spell. I guess bladesinger can't take advantage of the warlock dip as well as the bard can, but the bkadesinger can get CME earlier also.
It's not 2024 content, but if you play with backwards compatible 2014 content: since this relies mostly on upcasting and only "needs" the 1 9th lvl spell, instead of taking the hypothetical 20th lvl version of the build to valor Bard 19 warlock 1, could you not take 2 levels in tempest cleric and basically double the damage of CME with channel divinity by setting CME to do lightning damage? Not sure how that compares to taking sorcerer levels for quicken spell EB, exactly, but I think it's still better.
I've already done a similar testbuild few days ago. I gave the valorbard polearm master and 2 lvls Warlock for agonizing blast, its insame with 5 attacks, but would only nerf it to 1d8 per lvl upcast.
But why would you let it outpace Spirit Shroud, which was already a decent spell to consider even before the new Nick property and Dual Wielder feat (which could give you another attack per turn compared to using the PAM feat)?
@@SortKaffe you get the reaction attack and you can only have 1 pact weapon. Also no ability mod for the bonus action attack without dual wielding. I don't need shill. for offhand and can take Mage magic initiate for shield
Hey remember how during the playtest when they released the revised Conjure X spells, and you told us to rate all of them Very Satisfied to make sure they don’t go back to the old ones? I don’t want to overinflate your influence, BUT…maybe the overwhelming scores made them overlook the written feedback?
I know this spell is kinda broken and it needs to be toned down but it's really exciting to cast it with a higher level spell slot and deal tons of damage...
I like the new rule because that makes it feel consistent with it's current power lvl. What I mean is it's already 1d8 for every 2 spell levels. It's the same reason I really like animate objects, it's initial power and it's scaling is nice and linear. (I wish one could down cast spells, maybe if all were this neatly balanced it would be possible)
Nerfing to 1d8 every other level seems too aggressive to me. Since Spirit Shroud is a Bonus Action to cast, you get to attack and deal damage on the first round, so CME needs to play catch up. With this proposed scaling SS and CME add the same 2d8 when cast at 5th level. And even at 4, 6, & 8 where it is adding one more d8, it is still going to take several rounds to make up for dealing zero damage round 1. So if I need to be sure that CME (and the combat) last until round 5 to justify casting at 6th level, then I will goes with SS every time
I get that the CMD is the highlight here, but is anyone else concerned that a bard with 1 level in warlock just gets to trade out 1 attack for 3 attacks with Eldritch Blast? I am sure there will be all sorts of other combos that work off of that.
One thing I notice about broken builds/combos in 5e 99% of them require multi classing, simple solution if you don't want your game broken is don't allow multiclassing.
Even with the nerf to Twin Spell they won't give Sorcerers access to Foresight lol Also, to balance CME, just have the extra damage trigger once per turn.
Is changing upcasting to 1d8 per level above 4 not enough of a nerf? 9th level would be 7d8 on hit, while your version is 4d8 for an 8th or 9th level. Idk seems like you’ve changed upcasting from broken to unusable but then again I haven’t crunched any numbers. All I know is that 12d8 on hit is unbelievable broken.
This is one of the reasons why I believe they should have made Shillelagh more druid focused, similar to Pact of the Blade, it should have read "[...] You can use your Wisdom modifier for the attack and damage rolls of [...]" Doesn't fix the spell itself but at least it doesn't open the flood gates for every class.
Shillelagh isn't really even 5% of the problem here, is the thing. You can do this build entirely without shillelagh and it's basically just as bad. You just dip Warlock earlier for Pact Weapon and make sure Dex is your secondary stat...you wind up getting, I think, -1 or -2 on one attack per round and losing out on a whole 1d6 damage per turn. That's it. Like, yes Shillelagh makes this build better, but not in a way that matters.
@@CaptchableCoins My point is that this build is a terrible argument for removing Shillelagh. The problem has nothing to do with Shillelagh. You might as well argue that TWF or the Bard Class should be removed...those are both bigger parts of the damage than Shillelagh is. To say nothing of Warlock. I also don't think removing it as a non-Wisdom option is actually a good or fun idea, but if you want to you certainly can...using this build as justification for doing so, however, just doesn't make sense.
tbh this was to be expected. The community has been saying for years EB need to be bound to warlock level rather then being a cantrip. And yes I do believe EB is the core culprit here. The second one is the bonkers scaling. The "saving grace" is ofc that CME cost an action, something remedied with 2 levels into figher. Also this show how moving subclasses to level 3 is just a sham. I think large swaths of 5.24 are clear improvements over 5.14 but it feels like 5.24 was made by ppl who don't know how to play 5.14.
My friend made a build like this a few weeks ago. He made it slightly differently I think but either way that spell is horrible and people told them that in the feedback and they printed it anyway. *sighs* Also I think it might be worth it to grab the two level dip into fighter to get weapon mastery for nick property, two weapon fighting style and I'm sure if you work it around a bit you could fit dual wielder in there somewhere for another attack and action surge of course. Which lets you do the whole rotation again except for the bonus attack... ... I'd be impressed if it wasn't so obviously stupidly broken even back in the playtest.
I mean considering the only benefit this has is damage it would be hard to design an encounter where the wizard doesn't die in 2 turns especially since they have to get up close... and the build has no sustainability considering its pretty much dead after one or two encounters and then it just scales worse than martials
I don't think it's too good. It's still 15ft close range and at those high levels, you're losing concentration. I don't care if you have proficiency in Con saves, you aren't going to make DC 30 checks. It's a big damage spell sure, but it's not perfect.
And yes, I know I could multiclass Sorcerer for Quicken Spell and make this even worse.
Don’t forget, you can take your last two levels of fighter and use action surge for even more burst! The more eldritch blast the better! 😂
@@brannenpfister2579it’s a small benefit but you could also use the slow weapon mastery with the club, lessening the chance your target could get out of range. Or take pact weapon short sword and use vex for advantage.
@@gregcheese13 I think i will work, as you do not use the magic action: " you can cast one of your cantrip that has a casting time of an action in place of one of those attacks."
@@gregcheese13 Incorrect. Valor Bard’s extra attack feature lets you replace an attack with a cantrip. So, you action surge and take the attack action to proc extra attack, and then replace the attack with eldritch blast. It’s all very legal.
your standards are slipping. take elritch adept to get agonising blast. each elritch blast add a +4/+5
Oh snap, I just recorded my own version of this... I wonder how similar ours will be...? (And for those wondering how I saw this 10 days before the video actually posted, it's because I'm a Patron of Treantmonk's Temple and so I got early access! Best $3 a month I ever spent!)
I didn't do the 2 level fighter dip for action surge...
@@TreantmonksTemple ha ha me either! Trying to go for sustained damage… so, only 1 level Fighter 😉
@@DnDDeepDive When is yours coming out? I'll hold off making this public until yours is released.
@@TreantmonksTemple oh that’s kind of you but you don’t have to do that! It won’t be until the 27th.
Yes! Fingers crossed for an even more broken build. XD
Reversing Spirit Shroud's scaling from 1 die every 2 spell levels to 2 dice every 1 spell level is such a headscratcher. Surely they had to have known how this would end up, right? Surely they got feedback on how this was too good?
ig they don’t care
Deadlines. That's how this stuff slips through. 5.24 needed another 3-6 months in the oven but they needed to get this out for the 50th anniversary for marketing purposes. The beating they'd take from a delay would most likely be worse than the beating they're taking from this.
@@mr.thurston7476 Probably would have helped if they didn't throw out a huge headcount worth of the team near the end as well...
@@mr.thurston7476 Yeah. That's how business works. You need to hit deadlines. Also, all projects could use "3-6 more months" but most projects need to be economical.
@@foldionepapyrus3441 You have NO IDEA what you're talking about. The people who got laid off were mostly marketing types and middle managers. The team designing the new books didn't lose people. They bulked up.
I’m hoping that there was just some grievous error with the upcast line, and that it gets a day 1 errata
I hope so. But the 5e crew never released errata that actually corrects mechanics only spellings or wordings. They seem to be too afraid to admit they made mistakes.
@@RaoGung They did eventually issue errata for Healing Spirit (from Xanathar's Guide to Everything), which was unintentionally overpowered in a similar way to this one. So there's precedent.
@@RaoGung There absolutely is precedent for this among WotC Errata.
A couple unmistakable examples were the errata to the Hadozee Glide trait which was massively (and rightly) nerfed in the errata for the Astral Adventurer's Guide, and the needed nerf to Winged Tiefling flight in the SCAG errata.
A couple examples of _buffs_ by errata were to Thri-Kreen telepathy and War Domain Cleric's capstone, Avatar of Battle.
No: it is not an error. It was like that during the playtest and many (including me) criticized it clearly.
@@Baraz_Red You're right, but it may still receive errata. Something broken on _this level_ of magnitude is still a game design editorial error (like the Hadozee Glide which was nerfed by errata).
Chris identifying 5.24's "hexblade dip" meme real early!
Thanks for the suggested fix, if I end up getting into some games I'll definitely be recommending this to any of my DMs that end up frustrated by this option stealing the limelight! A shame they didn't have time or bandwidth to do playtesting to shore up this glaring divide.
Except that they did run CME through playtesting. Received a lot of criticism. Then proceeded to publish the playtest version unchanged. Head-scratching.
You're being so un-generous. The 2024 ruleset is shockingly good, with improvements to the game all over the place. It's not perfect. They made a mistake. But overall they have done an incredible job. Better than I expected.
Fix it by not allowing multiclassing
@@hawkname1234 it is not even clsoe to acceptable, it is horrendously playtested, baffling design decisions, and absolutely greedy to demand full price for what is essentialyl a patch.
Like, this is just a collection of balance changes(mostly buffs) for classes and the remaining changes are all mostly awful
@@hawkname1234it is better than before, but boy I expected so much more. With 10 years of ideas and feedback, they couldn't muster a single new fighting style, a single different mastery from the playtest that was a year ago, barely any new spells, and among many other things, left out a few extremely obvious oddities such as the spell in the video.
If it was a single thing, I would see it like you do, but it's not. I could cite many more
It must've been the ol' brain fart spoonerism switcheroo: 1d8 for every 2 slot levels → 2d8 for every 1 slot level. Like a blushing crow → a crushing blow. A tale of two cities → ...
Nope, the current upscaling makes perfect sense if you assume only a druid or a wizard with only 1 attack per turn would ever cast the spell and must use a whole turn for set up. Which as written are the only classes that get access to it. The "problem", though WotC might consider it a feature, occurs with multiclassing to get more attacks, and Valor Bards being able to get it through magical secrets. However, it seems like WotC have decided that some builds being broken is just a-okay since they did nothing at all to nerf Sorlock.
@agilemind6241
In that case you just limit the bonus to one attack per turn.
@@agilemind6241It’s still a problem for a regular old wizard. Upcast CME + upcast Scorching Ray. Just keep piling on damage until the problem is solved. Hundreds of points of damage per round.
@@avsabari1263 My fix would be:
You conjure spirits from the Elemental Planes that flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration. The Emanation is considered Difficult Terrain for your enemies.
Until the spell ends, the spirits fight for you, and you can use your Bonus Action to make a melee magic attack against one creature in the Emanation. On a hit, you deal 2d8 damage that is Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack). You can also make this attack using a Reaction when a creature you can see or hear ends its turn in the Emanation.
The damage increases by 2d8 for each spell slot level above 4.
@@Itomon Could be cool.
A few options to choose from now.
A broken build involving a one level Warlock dip? I'm SHOCKED!! SHOCKED, I say!!
I've said it before, but it's pretty clear that before they could get a serious pass at balancing spells they passed out layoff notices. Fingers crossed for 6e in 10 years.
Didn't the layoffs happen before the playtest?
Why are people in the TTRPG community so incredibly dishonest? They did NOT lay off the team building the new edition. If anything, they bulked it up with contractors. WHY are all of these people morally okay with their outright lying?! Intellectual dishonest is a huge, endemic integrity problem in the whole TTRPG community.
@@hawkname1234 Clearly they got a solid playtest in on this spell and the ones that had been a problem since 2014 and we're all imagining this issue.
Do you have plans for an updated baseline? I believe you've mentioned that the new ruleset generally has better dpr, do you have plans for changing your baseline?
Yeah was it during the playtest fighter (or Barb) video that TM mentioned the champion fighter could be the new baseline? Could be wrong. But that would be very interesting.
I'm considering an update.
@@TreantmonksTemple Please do an update.
This edition is less burst/nova damage and more sustained damage
So much for tightening the caster/martial divide…:O
That's kinda screwy, but is that the biggest damage outlier you can get out of the 2024 edition with a build or is this just an harbinger of shenanigans to come? Scary stuff. Also, while I've loved and agreed with the warlock baseline, might we need a closer look at how it performs in 2024 as things change and start settling in?
I did some math to see what's more important for Conjure Minor Elementals - number of attacks or accuracy of attacks. I came up with the idea that instead of maximizing the number of attacks by using Eldritch Blast, it's better to go the route where you have "only" 4 attacks that are almost certain. Sure, a huge number of attacks through Eldritch Blast will give you big results with Conjure Minor Elementals, but a lot of those attacks will miss (you have to multiply the average damage by the probability of a hit). From my calculations, you'll get statistically more average damage per round if you make sure all 4 attacks with CME hit.
Here's how to do it (1 Fighter / 1-19 Valor Bard):
1. Choose Elf/Shadar-kai/Eldarin as your race (you know where this is going).
2. Take Magic Initiate as your Origin feat to get Find Familiar and Booming Blade (you can later get Find Familiar from Magical Secrets, and switch Magic Initiate to Shield or Absorb Elements to get one more cast).
3. Start as 1st level in Fighter to have weapon mastery for shortsword and scimitar, as well as Two-weapon Fighting Style, Constitution saving throw proficiency.
4. Fight using shortsword + scimitar. Max Dexterity instead of Charisma (Charisma probably stays at 16).
5. At 4th level, take Elven Accuracy with +1 to Dexterity (you already have 18 Dexterity).
6. At 15th level (1 Fighter / 14 Valor Bard), you already have 4 attacks: 3 as Actions and 1 as Bonus Action thanks to Battle Magic.
Result:
First attack: You have triple advantage thanks to Find Familiar and Elven Accuracy. You swap this attack for Booming Blade. Big Boom. Attack with shortsword with Vex.
Second attack: You use Battle Magic (bonus action) because you cast a spell this turn that has a casting time of one action. You have triple advantage due to Vex from the previous hit and Elven Accuracy. You attack with a shortsword with Vex.
Third attack: You have Extra Attack, so you make another strike. You have triple advantage due to Vex from the previous hit and Elven Accuracy. You attack with a shortsword with Vex.
Fourth attack: You have scimitar from Nick, so you make another strike. You have triple advantage due to Vex from the previous hit and Elven Accuracy. You attack with a scimitar with Nick.
If you are below level 11, you can use Fount of Moonlight instead of Conjure Minor Elementals.
Also, if you need to focus on CC (e.g. Hypnotic Pattern / Wall of Force), your damage will still be very high.
Also, you can assume that your weapons are magical (e.g. Flame Tonge shortsword/scimitar), which is not the case with Eldritch Blast.
Advantage doesn't stack.
Love that you resorted to the same fix as I did.
When I first saw this spell, I smiled like a wizard and thought “well, hello there animate objects…I’d like you to meet our new friend CME”.
That sounds like fun shenanigans, but there are two problems. First, both are concentration spells. Second, AO’s attacks aren’t yours - each object is a construct with hit points. CME’s range is “self.” I agree it would be a lot of fun, though!
@@DukeTrout ahh good points!
4th level magic missle it is then.....😂
@@kikstand2011 I would need to check the description for MM, but I’m not sure it’s an attack, as it’s auto-hit. That also sounds like fun, but I would check the wording.
so... the more you think CME on their original classes, the less fun and creative they get...
@@Itomon Basically, yes. :(
Blade singer wizard. Eldritch blast from Human feat. At level 11 you got 1 attack and 3 beams.
Blade song for concentration and movement. No dips needed and you get 6th level conjure minor elemental
But remember, removing concentration from hunters mark would completely break the game
Yeah, it's 1d6 on every attack, so it can easily be abused with the new Nick and Dual Wielder combo 🙃
This was the one spell I called for a nerf to the upcasting on, I don’t know how this was missed
I am glad you pointed out foresight, it is what I was saying on othervideoes on topic that 8th+foresight is more broken than level 9 CME, pluswith the 8 hoursyou can still cast 7, and 6 level CME for other encounters and keep theforesight benefits.
Even without Conjure Minor Elementals, Valor Bard with a Pact of the Blade dip seems super strong.
this one hit me in waves. at first glance "eh it seems like a good spell but wizard and druid only, they don't even get extra attack?" then i realized "oh wait bard, ok so maybe there's something here?" eldritch blast didn't even occur to me. yikes. like reading the spell i *picture* melee attacks or weapon attacks but... it doesn't say that. oof. this one breaks wide open.
I noticed the same thing 😅
I was going to house rule that it only works once per turn, rather than changing the scaling.
This way it works well on a character making only one attack per round.
What if that attack is an upcast Scorching Ray? That’s still hundreds of points of damage.
My fix:
You conjure spirits from the Elemental Planes that flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration. The Emanation is considered Difficult Terrain for your enemies.
Until the spell ends, the spirits fight for you, and you can use your Bonus Action to make a melee magic attack against one creature in the Emanation. On a hit, you deal 2d8 damage that is Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack). You can also make this attack using a Reaction when a creature you can see or hear ends its turn in the Emanation.
The damage increases by 2d8 for each spell slot level above 4.
@@DukeTrout Well I would consider Scorching Ray 1 spell that makes multiple attacks. so the first HIT from the spell would do 2d6 + additional 2d8 damage(+2d8 per level) while the others successful attacks with the spell would do their normal 2d6 points of fire damage.
@@robmongar7933 I can see that. Kinda an awkward mechanic, but it would be a fix to the problem.
That is a very simple change. I like it.
I would love to see if Chris's "The Voice From Beyond" warlock build can still be effectively played with the new 2024 rules.
Looks like nuclear wizard got a buff too huh.... Evocation wizard is gonna be real popular.
Meanwhile the Paladin: smites once.
Shillelagh has a casting time of a bonus action. So it does not qualify for the lvl 6 extra attack valor bard feature, right? That only applies to cantrips with a casting time of an action. So i am confused about the action economy at lvl 11: BA Shillelagh, Attack action with 3 eldritch blasts because that cantrip qualifies and as a second strike we use the club. Why do we get another bonus action for the pact weapon attack? we used our bonus action already. Are you saying, we get a separate second bonus action? Also, don't we need another bonus action to conjure the pact weapon? Are you saying we get three bonus actions in the same turn? That can't be accurate, can it?
That is what I was wondering. I was a little confused about how this all came together.
This is certainly a decisive result, but it is becoming more and more apparent that the new rulesare going to be significant closer to 3.5e in the wide gap between optimized and unoptimized characters.
Some people may be excited about this, but im worried
Worried about what? Its just a game
@@andrecosta8680 worried about the game not being as fun? why does it being a game mean you can't be concerned for the state of it?
@Treantmonk's Temple I don't like this fix because it doesn't address use cases where its just single class druid or wizard. Especially druid where its pretty balanced on them as they cant hit dozens of times in a round. A MUCH BETTER fix would just change it to be allowed to proc 2 MAYBE(probably not) 3 times a turn. They still have to be close range as well. And allows characters like Sword and board druid or wild shape druid to use it with out being overly penalized from your change. Also limits 4 attacks per round from the bladsinger+shortsword+dagger and 1 level of ranger combo.
Here's hoping you add the "Temp HP disappears when the effect providing it ends" houserule to your list, because otherwise Polymorph and Wildshape are going to be pretty nutty...
Even a (mostly) single class wizard can use this with scorching ray. First level as fighter, pick up spell sniper, warcaster, elemental adept, and maybe flames of phlegathos, and you can just go to town. You can even cast scorching ray infinitely at wizard 17.
I would like to use this spell now.
Add polymorph to the day 1 house rules… watch pack tactics video on it for why.
I thought I heard somewhere that Eldritch Blast would only get extra rays for Warlock levels.
It was the playtest. It's head-scratching that they not only pass on said change but also introduce a spell like CME to make the abuse even worse.
A much more simple example would be Magic Missile. It's 3 attacks at level 1. If you upcast it at level 8, that's 10 attacks, all of which add the bonus damage. If you spent your level 9 spell on CME, that's +12d8 per attack, or 120d8s on a Magic Missile that cannot miss. (575 average damage, including the missile damage.)
IMO your solution - lowering the bonus damage - doesn't fully solve the problem, because the main problem is from the scaling of attacks per spell usage, not the additional damage per each attack. +4d8 per attack is still broken when you have tons of attacks. Limiting it to at most two attacks per turn would be better, or maybe one attack per turn but up the damage slightly.
It's like WotC forgot that some bard subclasses get Extra Attack, I think the fix too this one is pretty simple and it's not the scaling, it's limiting it too once/turn, probably something like, "The first time you hit a creature on a turn..."
This seems pretty good for any games that get to level 17
They managed to nerf the Paladins and make the Rangers weird but didn’t listen to us about this spell…😂 Let me put on my completely unsurprised face!
There's a slight increase in damage to be had if someone else applies Foresight to you, allowing you to use your 9th-level slot on CME. Still, wild build. Makes Spirit Shroud look like baby's damage
I get that in a vacuum this does a lot of damage. In practice though, we are talking about a level 11 character in light armor (not sure if Valor bard gets better armor from Subclass), without abnormal CON investment, without a shield, taking a setup round to use their highest level spell slot and their concentration and going into melee range. Sure you have warcaster, but against creatures you would be facing at level 11 I still think it is very unreliable that you can keep concentration through the setup round, or for that long during combat.
Valor Bards do get medium armor, and if you’re really worried about your defense you can get the shield spell from an origin feat, or some other defensive feature from your species.
Enemies are only going to live 1 round anyways 😅
I kinda feel like this was created this way to actually keep it competitive with other spells after 5th level. Now, it's clearly still very broken, and an unfortunate no brainer spell option right now. But as a player that's planning to incorporate this on my Bladesinger Wizard, I still feel like I'm not wanting to cast this much past level 5. I don't want to burn all of those big spell slots on just "moar damage".
Not to say that I never would, but not often. That said, as a player I was planning on nerfing this myself as well, but down to 1d8 per spell level, not 1d8 per two levels. It's an action to cast, and still Concentration, so I think it brings it more in line IMO. Appreciate the insight though Chris! I forgot about Eldritch Blast... I wouldn't do that to my DM lol.
This isn't even hard to catch.
As soon as I saw the spell I started to look for a gish with as many attack per round as possible.
Weird overlook for sure
I dont think its a bid deal already he is talking about a lvl 11 toon with a muliti class the only problem i see is if you have a power gamer at your table do you really think this is worse the the old infinite wizard combo and how many tables really had that happen
I think I would fix it not by changing the scaling, but limiting the damage to ounce per round per target, to greatly reduce it's scaling based on spamming attacks without meaningfully making it worse for the standard wizard/druid
The casting time of an action seems like it will reduce the power of this build somewhat.
So what will we call this horror show… the elemental bardlock? The bardlock sniper?
bardlocme
Bardlockheimer the Destroyer of Worlds
New dm every session.
Elemental overlord like in the thumb
If my players want to do this, I will let them. This sounds like a lot of fun.
I was thinking change it to "whenever you damage a creature in the emanation" and restricting it to one per turn
I wonder what will be the DPR with the House rules. Maybe good house rule will be to add the hit with the melee attack. That way you eliminate the eldritch blast extra attack
I think that if there's ever official errata to this spell, it'll likely leave the scaling the same but limit the damage to once per turn. Not saying that makes any more or less sense from a balance perspective, but it strikes me as more likely that the designers wanted the damage number to feel chunky and just didn't account for a multiclassed Valor Bard getting 5+ "attacks" in a turn with this spell running.
Honestly, instead of House ruling this, I think I would have a conversation with my players during session zero and clarify this falls under the coffee-lock type of builds, a thing you are min maxing to break scaling and would simply say that build isn't available. On a wizard with one or two attacks, this is fine, strong but not completely bonkers. It is better on a druid as they can use it with wild shape and more reliably hit twice, while feeling more comfortable on the front line. So without sheleighleigh and pact of the blade and 3 or 4 attacks, this is much less of a problem, which is why it is only available to druid and wizard. This is not as broken as spike growth and all the methods for grappling and pushing we now have, for example. I am more likely to require a 2nd level spell for silvery barbs than nerf this, so long as they don't explicitly build around it due to communication at session zero. At least, that is my thought.
But why let it scale so much better than Spirit Shroud, which was already a decent spell to consider even before the new Nick property and Dual Wielder feat?
@SortKaffe I do not agree that they should have let it scale like this, especially after being flagged in playtest. However, if just wiz or Druid uses it, it is not as much of a problem. If you only have the ability to normally trigger it once and maybe trigger it twice, it just isn't that much damage, especially when you are putting someone squishy on the front line. Thinking about it further, if you were order of scribes, you could magic missile with it on you manifest mind, which would also be pretty busted. Though I think their thought was those classes couldn't really benefit from it nearly so much, so they made it scale. I think if that was the argument, they could have made it scale with just having a single larger die instead of more dice. Generally, though, if everyone is playing to not break the game, this shouldn't be a problem.
Altough i agree it is pretty damm powerful... i don't think it's fair comparing it to hex + eldritch blast, hex is a spell that doesn't upcast damege, it isn't worthit at those levels, it would be fair if you compare with other higher level spells.
Oh no! A gish can't have as much damage as a meteor swarm.
not every round it shouldn't
Would “once per turn” be a simpler way to fix this? I think the problem is how many attacks we can get. It would still be very strong to upcast but at 9th level it would add 12d8 (54 avg) per round which isn’t unreasonable at that spell slot level. Seems easier to remember too
Wow... even limiting that "To can only be applied once per creature per turn just means "You get an eldritch blast, you get an EB, you get an EB, and you two targets in my face get the melee wpn attacks." I mean the only other option is to rule that it only applies on the first successful attack per round.
Spirit shroud was already a spell doing something similar! I would compare the two!
So I paused the vid at the start when I made the following after just reading the spell!
1 level fighter two-weapon fighting style, Magic Initiate shillelagh(origin feat) +scimitar, 19 levels Bladesinger!
Fun to see I was wrong!
If you go Sorcerer 3+ - Bladesinger 7+, you can activate Innate Sorcery for Scorching Ray and make a bunch of CME-boosted attacks with advantage. The build is insane starting from level 10, but becomes, as expected, more and more ridiculous the higher level you are. I crunched numbers, and should you go all-in at level 17 against a 19 AC, you can expect 2080 damage after 5 rounds:
- Round 1: cast CME at 9th level and activate Innate Sorcery
- Round 2: Scorching Ray at 8th level + Quickened Firebolt, 609 Damage in average
- Round 3: Scorching Ray at 7th level + Quickened Firebolt, +550 Damage in average
- Round 4: Scorching Ray at 6th level + Quickened Firebolt, +490 Damage in average
- Round 5: Scorching Ray at 5th level + Quickened Firebolt, +431 Damage in average
All of this to say, I hope WotC make an errata soon enough, because the Spellcasters-Martial divide has never been that big since CME came out.
For what it's worth, Innate Sorcery only gives you advantage on Sorcerer spells. Meaning you'd need to pick up Scorching Ray as a Sorcerer and when you cast it you will use Charisma for your spell attack bonus. So if you've focused on Charisma you're not a great Wizard, and if you focused on INT your hit chance will be much lower.
However you can solve this just by going Bard and picking up CME with Magical Secrets.
@@PiroMunkie Yep indeed, 3 levels is for the scorching ray as a sorcerer :) was just focusing on damage here, exploring possibilities. In game, Valor Bard would be better but CME would come 3 levels later
Do you still round down when multiclassing a half caster and determining spell slots? I am wondering if a 1 level Paladin dip or Ranger dip for weapon masteries would still progress spell slots a level.
I'm too new to know, but is a "15ft emanation" a cone, sphere, radius, etc? Also, when it Eldritch Blast says 2 beams at level 5 - doesn't that assume you've taken 5 levels of Warlock (not that your character is level 5)?
I agree that CME scales too well with many attacks. But the proposed fix in the video makes it too weak in non-edge cases (less than 4+ attacks per turn) and a fix like limiting the extra damage to once per turn makes it too weak in general.
Compare CME e.g. with Spirit Guardians. With the proposed fix, you need to hit 2*X times to deal as much extra damage as SG against X creatures (e.g. 4 hits to break even against 2 creatures), and SG also deals damage on a failed save.
Imho a better fix would be to apply the proposed fix (scaling by 1d8 every 2 slot levels) and then adding something like "The first time you deal that extra damage each turn, it is doubled." to the spell.
If you restrict the Spell to just actual Druids and Wizards, how does it function "As is"?
Is there anything that offers multiple attacks per round to the same scope? All that comes to mind without doing a deep dive is Scorching Ray really (nothing to the same repeatable level as a Cantrip + Melee attacks)
What about something along the lines of adding “A creature may only take this damage once a turn.” to the spell? If you have 6 creatures within 15ft of you then it’s still doing bonkers damage but won’t invalidate any boss fights.
Honestly, as a DM I am fine with that. The more powerful my players get, the bigger the Monsters I can throw at them.
And in the end, you are a Bard in melee, so you better pray that whatever you hit is dead and cant say "ok, my turn now!" afterwards...
I would like to see how high other single target damage builds get for a more relevant comparison. Weapon users and many martial classes have considerably been buffed and this is not reflected in a comparison to a baseline that is based on warlock and hasnt changed.
Sounds fun.
They should have known. I mean, even without seeing the math, my gut reaction to the upcasting rules is "2d8 per spell slot seems awfully high."
I think you can't summon a Shillelagh as part of the extra attack feature of the valor bard because the casting time is a Bonus action and not an action. So I don't understand your action economy, does it work that way?
1st round
Magic action: cast CME
bonus action: cast shillelagh (summon the club)
DPR = 0
2nd round and after
Attack action: one swing with shillelagh + Eldritch blast as part of the valor bard extra attack
Bonus action: off hand light weapon swing
DPR as calculated in your video
I think the spell is fine as is for wizards and druids who aren't ideal in melee. Do you think the bladesinger can abuse it to the same degree the Valor bard can? Is it broken for the bladesinger? Does it just make the bladesinger viable in melee at mid to higher levels? It seems like those might be the only two classes that can get the most out of this spell. I guess bladesinger can't take advantage of the warlock dip as well as the bard can, but the bkadesinger can get CME earlier also.
Um how does the player get around requiring a free hand to cast the cantrip requiring a somatic component for Eldritch Blast?
It's not 2024 content, but if you play with backwards compatible 2014 content: since this relies mostly on upcasting and only "needs" the 1 9th lvl spell, instead of taking the hypothetical 20th lvl version of the build to valor Bard 19 warlock 1, could you not take 2 levels in tempest cleric and basically double the damage of CME with channel divinity by setting CME to do lightning damage? Not sure how that compares to taking sorcerer levels for quicken spell EB, exactly, but I think it's still better.
I've already done a similar testbuild few days ago. I gave the valorbard polearm master and 2 lvls Warlock for agonizing blast, its insame with 5 attacks, but would only nerf it to 1d8 per lvl upcast.
But why would you let it outpace Spirit Shroud, which was already a decent spell to consider even before the new Nick property and Dual Wielder feat (which could give you another attack per turn compared to using the PAM feat)?
@@SortKaffe you get the reaction attack and you can only have 1 pact weapon. Also no ability mod for the bonus action attack without dual wielding. I don't need shill. for offhand and can take Mage magic initiate for shield
Hey remember how during the playtest when they released the revised Conjure X spells, and you told us to rate all of them Very Satisfied to make sure they don’t go back to the old ones? I don’t want to overinflate your influence, BUT…maybe the overwhelming scores made them overlook the written feedback?
Would changing "any attack" to "any melee attack" solve the issue easily?
I know this spell is kinda broken and it needs to be toned down but it's really exciting to cast it with a higher level spell slot and deal tons of damage...
Really hope it was meant to be 1d8 on damage, and upcast for 1d8 every two levels, similar to spirit shroud and holy weapon, hope they errata it
Does the valor bard get a weapon mastery? If so, then could you work in the nick property?
This spell is blatantly overpowered. Creating difficult terrain in a 15 foot emanation around you is just too strong.
Would a level of fighter to use nick and the 2 weapon feat give you 2 extra attacks? thats like a 30% bump.
I like the new rule because that makes it feel consistent with it's current power lvl. What I mean is it's already 1d8 for every 2 spell levels.
It's the same reason I really like animate objects, it's initial power and it's scaling is nice and linear. (I wish one could down cast spells, maybe if all were this neatly balanced it would be possible)
Nerfing to 1d8 every other level seems too aggressive to me.
Since Spirit Shroud is a Bonus Action to cast, you get to attack and deal damage on the first round, so CME needs to play catch up.
With this proposed scaling SS and CME add the same 2d8 when cast at 5th level. And even at 4, 6, & 8 where it is adding one more d8, it is still going to take several rounds to make up for dealing zero damage round 1.
So if I need to be sure that CME (and the combat) last until round 5 to justify casting at 6th level, then I will goes with SS every time
This spell will be fixed surely. It's necessary bacause is too strong cause the wrong scaling.
I just house rule that it only works on one attack per round
I get that the CMD is the highlight here, but is anyone else concerned that a bard with 1 level in warlock just gets to trade out 1 attack for 3 attacks with Eldritch Blast? I am sure there will be all sorts of other combos that work off of that.
I read it as +2d8 every 4 slots, double take, oh wait it doesn't say that, wuuut...
One thing I notice about broken builds/combos in 5e 99% of them require multi classing, simple solution if you don't want your game broken is don't allow multiclassing.
Even with the nerf to Twin Spell they won't give Sorcerers access to Foresight lol
Also, to balance CME, just have the extra damage trigger once per turn.
Is changing upcasting to 1d8 per level above 4 not enough of a nerf? 9th level would be 7d8 on hit, while your version is 4d8 for an 8th or 9th level. Idk seems like you’ve changed upcasting from broken to unusable but then again I haven’t crunched any numbers. All I know is that 12d8 on hit is unbelievable broken.
Honestly, just flat ban the spell and give druids Spirit Shroud. Easy fix.
This is one of the reasons why I believe they should have made Shillelagh more druid focused, similar to Pact of the Blade, it should have read "[...] You can use your Wisdom modifier for the attack and damage rolls of [...]" Doesn't fix the spell itself but at least it doesn't open the flood gates for every class.
I prefer Magic Initiate (Druid) over a Warlock dip for the Valor Bard or Paladin. I was sick of Hexblade builds, so this feels refreshing.
@@SortKaffe yeah, it's fun but it's also just giving more toys to builds that don't need it, and causes problems like Treantmonk shows
Shillelagh isn't really even 5% of the problem here, is the thing. You can do this build entirely without shillelagh and it's basically just as bad. You just dip Warlock earlier for Pact Weapon and make sure Dex is your secondary stat...you wind up getting, I think, -1 or -2 on one attack per round and losing out on a whole 1d6 damage per turn. That's it.
Like, yes Shillelagh makes this build better, but not in a way that matters.
@@DeadmanwalkingXI yeah so let's take it out of it haha, shillelagh should be locked to Wis and CME should be way less damage
@@CaptchableCoins My point is that this build is a terrible argument for removing Shillelagh. The problem has nothing to do with Shillelagh. You might as well argue that TWF or the Bard Class should be removed...those are both bigger parts of the damage than Shillelagh is. To say nothing of Warlock.
I also don't think removing it as a non-Wisdom option is actually a good or fun idea, but if you want to you certainly can...using this build as justification for doing so, however, just doesn't make sense.
@TreantmonksTemple How about dual wielder feat?
I feel like this is not much different than a old Shep Druid's damage when up casting. While also being safer.
tbh this was to be expected. The community has been saying for years EB need to be bound to warlock level rather then being a cantrip. And yes I do believe EB is the core culprit here. The second one is the bonkers scaling. The "saving grace" is ofc that CME cost an action, something remedied with 2 levels into figher. Also this show how moving subclasses to level 3 is just a sham. I think large swaths of 5.24 are clear improvements over 5.14 but it feels like 5.24 was made by ppl who don't know how to play 5.14.
Feel like it was designed to be a ranger or Eldrich knight only spell
You know I don't like to say things are "broken"
My God damn 500 plus damage and it's going to have to get modified before I can use it at my table
My friend made a build like this a few weeks ago. He made it slightly differently I think but either way that spell is horrible and people told them that in the feedback and they printed it anyway. *sighs* Also I think it might be worth it to grab the two level dip into fighter to get weapon mastery for nick property, two weapon fighting style and I'm sure if you work it around a bit you could fit dual wielder in there somewhere for another attack and action surge of course. Which lets you do the whole rotation again except for the bonus attack... ... I'd be impressed if it wasn't so obviously stupidly broken even back in the playtest.
I mean considering the only benefit this has is damage it would be hard to design an encounter where the wizard doesn't die in 2 turns especially since they have to get up close... and the build has no sustainability considering its pretty much dead after one or two encounters and then it just scales worse than martials
I don't think it's too good. It's still 15ft close range and at those high levels, you're losing concentration. I don't care if you have proficiency in Con saves, you aren't going to make DC 30 checks.
It's a big damage spell sure, but it's not perfect.
Honestly, I just wish feats and multiclassing was still optional features.
Moon duid shifting to giant scorpion with 3 attacks
Find greater steed... This works on the steed
Yes, it is called D&D 5.24...