Worlds Largest Radar Astronomy Dish To Be Demolished!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
- The iconic Arecibo observatory has suffered a second cable break and now the engineers who were trying to reinforce the structure think that it's no longer safe to try and save the structure. The National Science Foundation which has been funding the installation for decades have decided to authorize demolition of the historic structure to avoid damage to other parts of the facility.
www.naic.edu/~p...
Hi Scott, as someone who's done work at Arecibo and am now working at FAST I'd like to thank you for this video. For many of us who learned how to be radio astronomers at Arecibo, these last few months have been difficult.
I'd also like to add that your comparison of Arecibo's range is incomplete. There is a further reason why Arecibo was so uniquely good at planetary radar. The larger the antenna, the small the beam size (or greater the magnification). So not only was Arecibo able to collect more signal as a receiver, it was also able to pack the transmitted power into an area on the sky that's about 10 times smaller (100 times less area) compared to the DSN antenna.
The only other telescope which could conceivably do this is FAST. But FAST has a much smaller feed structure (the structure hanging over the dish) that weighs only about 30 tons. It simply could not support the weight and power requirements of a radar transmitter without major upgrades and redesign.
Excellent video,
Cheers
I pray they can safely take it down and then invest in a new telescope with all new tech for a new generation of scientists!
That's really interesting! Thank you for adding to the discussion.
Great comment Marko K!
Just to give an idea of the focusing, Goldstones EIRP (how much power it would take to get the same strength, if you were transmitting in all directions instead of a tight beam, a way to compare two different antennas of different directionality like this) is 363 GW on X-band, and Arecibo was 20TW EIRP on S-band. Arecibo has a monstrous amount of directional power (as if the radar imaging of other planets didnt make this apparent)
@Marko K Hypothetically, could Goldstone transmit radar and FAST use its larger diameter to receive return from more distant objects?
I asked myself what we would do now if needing confirmation a distant object was on collision course for Earth and that's the thought that popped up.
Earth curvature and rotation would be complications but could it be done?
I'm a draw bridge engineer and I speculate they haven't been doing inspections if they were caught off guard by this rope failure.
All but confirmed. The telescope was slated to close for a number of years. It has been bouncing between various foundations & universities due to the high maintenance costs. Everyone wants to use and own a famous scientific instrument, but nobody wants to pay to keep it working.
@bulletsholes Compound that with administrators from a science background instead of engineering. They should have someone with a suspsension bridge background on staff. Bet they didn't. I would also bet that they played games with local building codes to classify the structure as something with low inspection requirements.
There's an old story that every year the Swiss check every inch of their cable car and ski lift cables, and replace any that aren't up to standard, and sell the failures to France who carry on using them.
@@PaulMansfield and when they decommission them they sell them to the NSF..
Yeah, look at the swelling in the cable at 4:42. Looks like some internal corrosion there.
How to get a new Arecibo:
Step 1: Write your congressman, saying the communists have a bigger one.
Soon to be the only big one :(
The congressmen are paid by the same "communists" good luck.
Hahaha, you're absolutely right! This was the case for so many other things throughout U. S. history. We (American officials) publically stated there was no use in going to space yadda yadda yadda. The use and funding of research by the military into the paranormal, mind reading, mind control, telepathy, killing via mind powers, etc. Twas all done so by one official proclaiming "Well Russia has already done 'this, this, and this' and we believe they aim to do more!" It's crazy to think of all the things that may not have been.
What if your congressman IS a communist? 🤔
@@scottwendt9575 I wish that were the case.
In my first job as an engineer, the fellow engineer I worked for had been a construction engineer on Arocebo. He was severely injured when a boulder broke free and rolled into the pit upon him. He recovered, but some 15-20 years after the construction he would tell me stories about this construction project. I was enthralled by these stories, even though we were working on one of the largest concrete projects in the country at the time. It’s sad the structure has failed. We will need to rebuild it.
Did he receive the nickname 'Indiana' for this?
Greetings Scott, I'm Puerto Rican and my family and I are members of the Astronomical Society of the Caribbean. As a amateur astronomy group we used to set up personal telescopes on the viewing platform of the visitor center and do stargazing nights. We used to get hundreds of visitors during those nights and I had the blessing to attend these at least 2 to 3 times per year. I'd say in the last decade I've visited the Observatory around 25 times, but since then I've moved out of Puerto Rico and the sad news hits hard. This might be sad news from a Science perspective, but from a local cultural perspective the news is devastating. The Arecibo Observatory was a focal point of pride for Puerto Ricans and a potent symbol of our island, not to mention the amount of international visitors it attracted made us (as Puerto Ricans) feel more relevant at least in the world of Astronomy. For us Puerto Ricans lovers of astronomy the news that /our/ Arecibo Observatory is being demolished is akin to having a piece of our hearts ripped out. Thank you so much for your words and for bringing attention to these sad news. My hope is that eventually it could be rebuilt... if only we had people who would fund it... Until then, Fly Safe!
its a shame it needs to be destroyed it was a great instrument
It's still a good place to put a telescope, for all the reasons it was originally. I can't say how long it will take, but someone is going to take up that opportunity.
You represent Puerto Rico well friend, Big love from Texas!
Hello fellow SAC member! A couple of months before the pandemic hit we were able to make one star party there. Very few of us brought telescopes (I think it was only Juan, his family and I who did so) but to no avail it was cloudy all night. Nevertheless we had fun in the museum section and had fun admiring the telescope itself (we even saw the gregorian dome position itself to a target, I never saw that before) and I took a lovely picture of the radio telescope with all the clouds above it it lokked a bit gloomy but beautiful nonetheless. Now I see the meaning behind my foto, it was a farewell picture😥 and the whole event has taken a more somber and bittersweet aspect to it for me 😔. I bid farewell to this national treasure.
I'm glad you feel this way instead of thinking of it as some kind of colonial oppression.
I swear everything from my childhood is either dying, in disrepair, or collapsing. The future really is awesome.
sometimes I just sit down and listen to some "sovietwave" & feel sad about the fact that the future was supposed to be space travel. they said it would be space travel, and look at us now
@@DallinBackstrom Yeah, I'm old enough to remember reading some of the soviet magazines that got sent over into West Europe while on deployment. Soviet Military Review and Sov Science Mag were awesome to read. For a business trip I visited Russia, was a pretty sad sight. I wanted to visit one of the old nearby soviet astronomical facilities but was told it had been out of service since the 90's and that it was considered a safety hazard. In fact I was told that's how it is for most of the old soviet science equipment. The government cared more about embezzling public money after 92 than continuing the countries scientific pursuits. It's a shame the USSR couldn't get its act together, could have really helped push the scientific envelope in the 21st century. Arguably when we needed that push the most.
Just like you, or anyone else.
Yo word
Abomination of desolation
"I dunno...There may be ways to save it."
10 days later...
Nope, sorry.
Arecibo: "Fine.. I'll do it myself.."
It happened... as a Puerto Rican our hearts are broken after so much loss in the Island. Now this. One of the local meteorologist was in tears while she reported the catastrophe on tv. A beautiful icon is gone. We were so proud, so proud of it. : (
estamos sumamente heridos por esta perdida...es como si se nos hubiera n caído las torres gemelas en puerto rico..sin gente adentro claro pero así nos sentirnos
As a Puertorican who lives near Arecibo this story really sadness me, and what's worst is that there is no plan to be rebuilt or create something similar in the area. :(
Yeah, the government doesn’t care about that stuff
Dam I remember when I lived on the island years ago I went to it I remember walking down steps and seeing that big ass dish when it was newer
I live in Arecibo too, the government doesn't care about science
Jobs lost currencies saved.
Don't talk about it and wish for it;
make it happen!
- Was I good dish?
-No, you were the best.
For some reason your comment made me feel extra sad about the end of this magnificent scientific achievement.
This is a conversation between my wife and I every day...
Cincinnati chili is the best dish.
@@EclecticBuddha do you watch Won't Somebody Feed Phil?
We're really feeling it here in the island. The Arecibo observatory was a true iconic site here in Puerto Rico. It's contributions to science and astronomy will forever be remembered.
I can only hope that at one point there is an effort to rebuild it.
Yeah Gabriel I feel for you. Like Scott said, maybe the saddest thing for me is that I had long wanted to visit it and never got around to it. It suddenly seems unlikely to happen.
Ditto on hopes about having it rebuilt. In one way it could never be the same, yet technologically it would almost certainly be _better._ And then at least I could still see the beautiful dish in the trees.
@BBB H thank goodness that's something I _have_ seen. I like the symbolism comment. ☺️
Well, once Trump's ass is hauled kicking and screaming out of the White House, maybe you could petition Biden for it.
It feels like the receiver is a symbol of both a lost past where science was a thing worth funding, and a present hyperfocussed on inconsequentialities.
@@Jablicek Pretty much.
Well, it demolished itself. I guess it decided it wasn’t going to go out without a bang
Yes -- a Big Bang.
Probably best to demolish it, then rebuild it new. The second part most likely won't happen though.
Not in a Harris/Biden administration. The only thing they’ll build is Section 8 housing.
@@Maryland_Kulak I'm sure they will allocate lots of money for wars though.
If it costs too much to make repairs,then an all new one...
@@Maryland_Kulak That's a great point, housing is much more important at the moment .There will be time to rebuild later.
@@Maryland_Kulak Sure,Trump was a great provider to science. Where do you people get projecting the right wing- that doesn't even believe in global warming or evolution on to the left ...BIDEN SAID HE BELIEVES SCIENCE. You want him to hold your hand?
The accountants won, they managed to get the maintenance budget down to zero.
Managerial culture has prevailed yet again. And there are people out there who still support the reduction of scientific budgets. This is not the last one we see destroyed.
@Minonian
So is the statue of Liberty. So?
@Minonian , no for some things maximum sensitivity is necessary, and maximum sensitivity depends on area, and the ~300 m diameter dish was so big it out-performed in those fields.
They won't be happy about the cleanup cost.
Not the accountants - the politicians. It's Congress' continual underfunding which caused the NSF to seek ways to offload the costs of running facilities such as Arecibo from its budget. So it will be no surprise if a full investigation will find that inspection and maintenance have been underfunded in the past 10 to 15 years. But any investigation is unlikely to follow the logic to the original root cause -- decisions made in the US Senate and House of Representatives.
"the time to fix this was 10 years ago" Well the accountants won. Enjoy the wreckage.
Yep, Some people do not understand the importance of maintenance. They skipped an oil change and now get to do an engine change.
@@henkbarnard1553 But in the meantime, the beancounter got a promotion then retired?
I dont want to rain on anyone's cynicism parade, but when a building is made out of steel wire under tension, it is a matter of time until the steel in the cables work hardens and the thing falls to ground.
@@asdfdfggfd Yes a couple of recent notable bridge collapses tells us financials favour "don't check and run to fail". Lives are cheap compared to plausible deniability in maintenance. And yes I feel bitter about this trend.
@@asdfdfggfd Cable-stayed bridges have their cables inspected and replaced as a matter of routine.
Scott, I really like your model of the Saturn V with Apollo capsule. During my professional career I was the Senior Estimator for a company that provided quite a few test models and mock-ups for NASA. My favorite project was the full size, 367 ft tall, Saturn V @ US Space and Rocket Center in Huntsville, Alabama which we produced for the thirtieth anniversary of the moon landing, July 1999. My consultant on the project was Richard "Dick" Gordon, Apollo 12 pilot. Good times !
I went there in the 90's it was really amazing, but you could feel the lack of maintenance - even as a generic visitor.
I visited last year and had the same vibes. I wonder how much Hurricane Maria damaged it, both in direct stress and also long-term degradation?
@@sjfehr you can see how rusty it is. Sad
@@sjfehr a lot of hurricanes have visited since 1967, a lot
@@a..d5518 Maria was by far the most powerful in nearly a century, following quickly behind Irma. This after 50 years of aging. It may have contributed to weakening the zinc joints that failed.
I haven't gone to any facility in the last 20 years that looked like it was well-maintained. A few years back a former colleague said of a sister company "Their factory looks like they make rocket motors... ours looks like we make hubcaps..."
Good job reporting on Arecibo. Maybe they can replace it with a phased array type? I'm an old iron worker, them cables become a problem without regular upkeep... Walking on that stuff would be a rush, but the way it's falling apart, not really safe! Corrosion is probably most likely to blame, access being the reason... Sorry day for science and Puerto Rico as well! Thanks again, great channel, keep up the good work.
I like your thinking. 👍
we've had a cat 4 hurricane in 2017 and then like 1000+ earthquakes in 2019, it took alot of damage.
Unfortunately, I strongly suspect a phased array in place of the mobile secondary reflector would likely have the same if not more mass.
If you mean an array of multiple independent dishes that's another can of worms. You can easily get a huge virtual aperture, but you won't have the same power handling capability.
Corrosion on the support cables was detected decades ago. At the base of each support tower, industrial blowers were installed. These ran full time blowing air inside of the cable covers, lowering the humidity to prevent/slow down the corrosion. The current scenario was contemplated before the installation of the blowers. The replacement of the cables was not considered feasible. Kudos to the engineering team and the local builders who constructed a marvel that withstood tropical weather, earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. for such a long period of time. The Observatory was the inspiration for many and a tool with many firsts. History can be a capricious lady, but the Arecibo Observatory will be remembered proudly.
@@DrewNorthup thank you sir... Just thinking out loud!
Thank you for such a heartfelt video. As a Puerto Rican and as an amateur astronomer this loss means so much for so many reasons. I was lucky enough to have visited 3 times and see it with my own eyes. It’s a huge loss but I keep hope that the space will be repurposed. Science needs it, our economy needs it, Arecibo needs it, the world would greatly benefit from it.
"Video game predicted the future?" In small white text.
I'm charmed at Scott's attempt at clickbait.
it was a scene in the video game Golden Eye. They used explosives to snap the cables and send the center mass down to the dish. I think its been in a few video games now
It was also in Battlefield 4 (the game in the right half of the thumbnail) and you could use a tank or other explosives to break the cables and it would collapse. The campaign for Battlefield 4 is also set in 2020, so it's a little extra fitting.
@@Ice_Berg instantly i thought of... Rogue Transmission BF4
@E No because it collapsed first 🙄
In the old Just Cause 2 video game, you can destroy a replica of Aricebo. The site is called PAN MILSAT
You should request a tour and go there man. It's pretty much the most iconic piece in space observation history.
I could imagine Arecibo and NSF wanting/allowing some popular science communicators to go there now... Document it properly. Not sure if Scott is the most obvious choice, but sure.
the engineers concluded that the thing may fail literally any minute now, a 1000 ton steel structure crashing down from the sky, they set up an exclusion area and nobody's allowed to get close, there's no saving that thing anymore
Yeah if they considered but ruled out "repair person tethered to a helicopter", it's pretty risky. Maybe the next one should have a path of removable dish parts to install scaffolds for maintenance?
@@rpavlik1 Next one may be an array of smaller dishes. We've gotten pretty good at combining signals... We can do it with optical now, and radio is much easier.
I think the key is to have a setup capable of transmitting at very high power so we can do radar astronomy. More radio astronomy capacity isn't bad or anything, but radar was what made Arecibo unique instrument wise.
@@rpavlik1 if a taught steel cable snaps, you don't want to be anywhere near its reach in any direction.
And after they went to the trouble of rebuilding it after Goldeneye...
That's exactly what I was thinking the whole time lol
Same here ;-)
Naw goldeneye just happened. The movie was actually sho thru a time lenses , so it only now happens causing the damage
Just one of 23x Sean Bean was killed on screen.
@@bigginsd1 I don't know how many times I've chased and head-shotted Sean Bean on the Arecibo dish, but somehow he's still alive....
The solution is a large zeppelin. Let that remove the observation platform.
The world needs more large zeppelins anyway. 😁
Led Zeppelin? Why not it can't hurt.
A Zeppelin with 700 tons of lift?
I thought that too, currently our greatest lift capacity is 1,400kg. The Zeppelins could do 22,000lbs... Not enough
But there is the MI-26 Russian helicopter that can lift 56,000kg.
There may well be cranes that could do the job IF you could get them there.
@@dougaltolan3017 Obviously we need fourteen Soviet helicopters, post haste!
this would probably cause inaccuracies in the focalpoint with just a gust of wind
2020: Arecibo decommissioned
2021: Asteroid hits earth
For destroying arecibo? Deserved!
Basically..
Does this mean mayans meant 2021 and not 2012? was it a typo!?
And new boss gonna appear that will make lots of destruction
I actually hope it happens.
You will always be in *_our hearts_*
It's hard to do research from out there though
That sounds painfull.
@Peter Rogan "Globalism" is a totally different thing to beleiving the world is round. Also, 20 years ago, it was your lot who were against globalism, what changed?
@Peter Rogan Fuckin 'ell, lads. Got a proper fanatic 'ere, ain't we?
@@vaclavcervinka65 It's hard to do research from out there? Have you been? It's like an hour from the airport. Also, there's this new thing called the internet. The telescope does not require you hand crank it.
As a Puerto Rican, I'm devastated with these news. It was always very inspiring to do school trips to the satellite. I last went to visit it several years ago as an adult and I was amazed by it just as much as when I was a kid.
@BBB H haha yeah, it was a great trip cause we would go there and then to the Camuy Caverns (look them up!) which are about 20 minutes from the Satellite. Those were great days. The Flight Museum looks incredible as well!
Satell..wat?
@@junholee4961 Slip of the "tongue"... let it drop.
@@DrewNorthup I was wondering if this is another genuine use of satellite
@@junholee4961 that's what we used to call it when we were little. A lot of peoe still do haha. I guess old habits die hard.
I do a ton of heavy industrial fabrication and deal with alot of stuff similar to this. Hate to say it, but yeah, demolish it. The problem isn't how feasible it is. This honestly looks like it could be fixed with current tech. The problem is cost. All this stuff to fix this is going to cost a huge amount. Not only that but you have decades of wear and tear on the whole things so you'd best replace alot of it while its down for maintenance. So while it's a repair they could do, they could probably build another one thats modern and without all of the maintenance issues for the same price as repairing the old one. In fact, so much stuff would need to be taken apart and put back together to do the repair at this point, it would just be easier to build a new one.
In political terms though if it goes down it'll likely never be replaced, the sunk cost fallacy can be used to communities benefit in cases like this.
The problem is to fix it basically requires rebuilding it in it’s entirety anyway. They didn’t build in the ability to bring the platform to the ground. So they would, at a minimum need to strip out the dish completely. Put up a series of vertical supports and lift cranes to take the load of the platform and the cables. Detach the cables. Bring down the platform. Remove all of the cables and replace them. Likely also needing to replace/rebuild the towers. By the time you are done repairing it, there is nothing original left. You’d have to rebuild from scratch anyway.
@@andrewtaylor940 Musk fanboys really have a way to insert the good hypeship _Vaporware_ into anything, don't they
@@tybofborg I’m not sure where discussions regarding Musk or Musk fanboyism came from. Certainly not from anything I said. I simply noted that in order to repair it you would need to demolish, dismantle, replace and rebuild 90%+ of it anyway. All of the cables need to be replaced. To do that the gantry must come down. To do that the dish must be removed. So the only thing left is the 50 year old towers. Bets on how good they look on detailed inspection? And most of this would involve lots of people working under the dangerously unstable platform and hoping the next cable break doesn’t drop it on their heads. The only things in it worth actually saving are the instrument and sensor packages on the platform. But getting them may be too dangerous. All of the rest is just bridge building. Probably better to rebuild those with newer materials and techniques. Past a certain age it is generally cheaper, easier and safer to simply demolish an older bridge and replace it with new. And much of this thing is basically repurposed bridge building.
@@andrewtaylor940 I wonder if saving the instruments would be worth it. Whole place looks like it's pretty run down. Can't imagine the instruments got the care they needed. And they're probably pretty old too. I'm not sure the math works out to make it a net gain.
3:59 “It’s not entirely unlikely that one of these cables could give way and then the other ones could just snap, snap, snap - this could be a cascading failure...”
Well, yes, I suppose that COULD happen....
Originally sent Nov 30th, 2020
RIP Arecibo. 2020 Strikes back once again! >:(
No. Deferred Maintenance Strikes Again!
Now IT'S crossed the line.
I live in the tropics (Guatemala) I am very surprised it has lasted this long . to make things last in a tropical environment it is much more expensive. For example 316 stainless steel is considered a fairly good choice in many applications in colder climates , but to achieve approximately the same performance in the tropics you need something like 27-7 , but what is normally specified is 304 a less corrosion resistant alloy than even 316. So the tropics is a harsher environment combined with a lower standard of construction.
316 has its primary advantages with high temperature corrosion resistance. Great for exhaust manifolds and tubing, but overkill for applications under 400 degrees F. I doubt the cabling they used was 304 even. Even under the worst conditions (my car exhaust), ive only seen 304 corrode superficially. I would bet they made those cables from the cheapest steel they could get their hands on, A36.
Regardless of any out come. This is a huge blow to the Scientific community.
No, leveloution is for science, and therefore we must find the engineer
Tragic is an understatement. Such an iconic structure. Sad, my dude.
I've worked on tram crews; that wire looks like z-lock which is often used for track ropes (the wire that the gondola is held up by, rather than the haul rope, which pulls the car back and forth). The bulge is from a core failure and if you see that, it has to be replaced. When the rope is intact, it retains the factory lubrication which prevents internal corrosion. Lightning is known to damage a few wires, and a certain number of broken or damaged external wires is allowed before it has to be scrapped.
The sockets were poured with zinc in the old days, now they use epoxy. The end of the wire is inserted into the socket, which is a cone shape, and then spread apart, called a broom shape. Then, everything is cleaned and etched with chemicals, and then a particular kind of epoxy is poured into the large end of the cone. The socket joint rarely fails, usually it is the rope that parts due to breakage of the external wires or corrosion, when the failure is not actually mechanical. When a socket does fail, it's usually because the process was not followed correctly, or subsequent inspections did not discover that the rope was slowly beginning to pull out of the socket. Usually, a small wire is wrapped around the rope where it exits the socket and part of the periodic inspection is to look for movement right there.
The rope has a finite life and it isn't cheap. It is usually built to order to length and can't be spliced like typical rope. You certainly can't replace it with the suspended load in place.
Good luck, amigos.
This news saddens me tremendously. As others have noted, Arecibo is iconic. But let's note, what we are losing is the ANTENNA, not necessarily the entire instrument. If the observatory is laid out as I think it is, the antenna can be replaced ... perhaps with something better though not necessarily larger, and something easier and less costly to maintain.
Well the antenna and the truss/cable array supporting it is the most complex and expensive part, and if it snaps free or is cut down its going to demolish the dish as well.
I think the problem is they don't have cable, or winches, in place to lower the antenna so they will have to crash it into the dish. Not even sure if there's a way to cut all the cables at the same time so the towers survive. Those cables are very heavy.
@@CanalTremocos Radio triggered explosive devices can be used to server cables simultaneously (to within less than 0.5 seconds). The sudden unloading of the towers might cause damage though.
@@planetfall5056 Replacing it is going to be expensive no matter how we go about it. I believe though that a major portion of the system is located in buildings OUTSIDE of the 'bowl' the dish is located in and that the towers surround. That's why I said that it is the ANTENNA that will be lost, not the signal processing computers, generators and everything else.
@@robertf3479 I mean...yeah? The buildings next to it will hopefully be fine, no one was saying the entire facility would be wreaked, Scott mentions how a few other minor telescopes would continue to be used at that site. Its just that the Arecibo telescope is the biggest and most expensive part of the facility, so talking about how its computer buildings will be ok is kind of...odd. Compared to the 350 meter radio dish with a multi-ton mobile hanging sensor array, a server building is a pretty small footnote on the repair bill.
I processed a lot of Arecibo-collected SETI data back in the day. This is sad.
My client still waits in hope.
So did I.
Same. Maybe like 10% of the useful work my old laptop ever did.
So did I.
im honoured to know that some of its data touched my harddrives. rip arecibo
12:11 "Call of Modern Duty Warfare"
-Scott Manley 2020
I'm doing the carafter model and texture
Every player will. Be a bald accented scientist bad ass
EA has likely already reached out to Scott to buy the copyright! TAKE THE DEAL SCOTT! TAKE THE DAMN DEAL!
ROFL!
xD .. but his first "battlefield" guess was actually right
Ahh yes, I love playing some Call of Modern Duty Warfare
I think this was a fantastic send off. I learned something today that without this video, I probably never would have learned. Thank you for making it.
how to destroy science projects?
This news is sad to hear. I went to visit Arecibo about 15 years ago with a group of friends. It's a really beautiful place. I can only imagine what it must have been like to go to work there everyday.
Arecibo is one of my fondest childhood memories. So sad.
Budget problems like this is why I think that people need a more direct intervention into deciding their government budgets. Take responsibility and understand that nothing is free, its all about what we commit our minds to.
2020: yes, it can get even worse...
Don’t think that cuz it will
Pickle P it just did
I am honestly amazed, that they didn't design this thing, so that the instrument cluster could be lowered onto some hardpoints in the dish (possibly retractable if needed) for routine maintenance and upgrades to both the instrument cluster and the supporting structures.
Great idea for Arecibo II in fact!
I wonder if it would just be too complicated/need even more overbuilding to be able to adjust the length of the cables. But yeah, some kind of service platform seems reasonable (from this non-expert) given that's a huge advantage of earth based instruments
They've never needed to do that in 60 years, and they've drastically changed the design since it was made. They regularly change out the transmitters/receivers at the focus without having to do that. What they should have been doing is replacing the original cables periodically. Leaving a bunch of steel cables supporting 900 tons in tropical weather for 60 years? Seriously?
Its from the 60's, pretty much the decade when hindsight would have ever been the most helpful to the U.S.
Pretty much everything done in the 60's was unsustainable, not going to last, or just plain wrong, with the benefit of hindsight
But truly, as you say they never designed it with hardpoints in mind, it seems like this was made without forethought either, again like many things from the decade
It was the 60’s. They probably expected to have multiple dishes on the moon by now. Why invest more then necessary on something that was clearly going to be replaced with something better in ten years ?
Maybe a good opportunity for Arecibo 2? Clear the old and build the new.
Well, global warming is a very important issue.
Maybe we need to push a case that it is VITAL to NEO research, and then maybe we can get it?
@@zaclegoattack Which in fact it is 😓
I think today another approach would be done. Today's signal processing allows to use a telescope array VLT, etc.
@@kraftrad7840 Good point. One way or another, I'd love to see a next generation of science happening. I have a sentimental place in my heart for Arecibo, so I hope we get something. Happy to pay more taxes to get it done.
@@kraftrad7840 A synthetic aperture just doesn't have the same 20TW effective radiated power. Yes, twenty terrawatts. That's a lot of cooked turkeys.
I like what I've seen from the synthetic aperture tools in terms of angular resolution, but that solves a different class of problems.
The fact that we've been able to send radar signals to Saturn, have them bounce off the planet and receive them back on Earth absolutely blows my mind.
Right?
Yeah "only"
yeah and its bringing the extinction of birds, insects, whales... Who know what else? Just kidding but it is a contributing factor along with light pollution and pollution in general including noise pollution...
It was Arecibo that first detected klingon opera coming from Uranus.
Klingons sure do love their opera.
Why are there klingons around Uranus, but not Neptune?
Uranus and Neptune are so similar... What does Uranus have and Neptune doesn't?
The dish one week after this: Fine, I'll do it myself!
Very sad to see this iconic piece of astronomy history lost, now we need to turn meteor crater in Arizona into its replacement.
Just imagine the resolution from a 1 mile wide dish.
I like your idea. Why not use the Sedan crater. Have the government clean up the site and build it there. What am I dreaming.....
Why can't it be built on flat land?
@@lubricatedgoat the closer the terrain matches the dish the less structure is needed. imagine how tall those towers would be if they went all the way down to level with the bottom of the dish
@@lubricatedgoat It could be above ground. Natural depressions simplify and lower the construction costs of support/motorization structures for the dish and trans-sever array, while providing wind protection for the collector dish.
@@lubricatedgoat Because it would cost an absolute fortune and would require towers a kilometre tall.
Aw, i remember being fond of Arecibo since the movie 'Contact' came out
Wonderful movie !
Jodi Foster would go and fix it!
Nice to see other people bring up 'Contact', it's one of my favorite movies also. I've been a fan of Arecibo since 'Cosmos' first aired, so this news really saddens me.
I went to Puerto Rico years ago and took the time to visit Arecibo.. I always got a laugh from Tom Skerrit in Contact talking about how remote the telescope was to get to, when in fact it has (maybe not now) a gift shop!
Hi i live actually very close to the observatory in Arecibo in Puerto Rico and this is very tragic to me and all of my fellow neighbours
Sad to hear that such an iconic telescope which contributed to humanity so much is collapsing on your eyes...
What a fitting tribute to an important and iconic instrument! Thanks! I had no idea it had been around since the 60’s. What a loss!
At 4:44 - we call that "birdcageing", and it is never a good sign.
Are you an engineer? If so, can you elaborate/ I do see that the cable's fraying, which is not good.
yeah those cables from the 1960's are deteriorated bad, I work with winches and cranes and those cables are failing from the inside out, like a ticking timebomb they are going to snap
@@TheEDFLegacy What you dont see in these pictures and what can be hard to see with the nakid eye at all is that these cables are getting stretched, contracting, and vibrating constantly. Temperature, ground vibrations, and wind will do that. Now, most of the time, these things have very little effect on what we use. The problem is time. It's been having this happen for decades. In some places in the cable it's going to weaken in. In other parts of the cable something called "Work Hardening" is going to occur. Basically the material is going to get harder, but brittle. This means it's alot easier for it to snap. Think of taking a wire and working it back and forth, how it eventually snaps. Same thing here, just on a larger and much slower scale. Now, keep in mind these cables are super thick and made up of a bunch of cable spun together. So they don't all fail at the same time. But once enough of them do, the snap is going to happen. Birdcage is a condition caused by this wear. I'm not 100% on how it happens, but it's one of the most obvious sign that things are going wrong since these not terribly flexible steel cords are starting to bend in ways they weren't designed.
And like the other are saying, this deterioration is BAD. Like really bad. If you gave me these cables and asked me to do a lift with them, I'd first call you crazy and refuse to do it. These cables all look beyond the point of needing to be replaced and from a construction perspective you would need to replace all of them. That's not to mention the massive danger to the lives of the work crews these things would pose as they work on them. When one of these things snaps, it snaps with insane amounts of pressure. Assuming you could get a rig that protects from falls, when this snaps it's going to be like a whip made of tons of steel flying in a random direction. If it were to catch the tethers of the repair crews, they're dead. If it hits a repair man, that guy is going to die. If any chunks of it fly off, it's going to be like having a grenade go off in that it's going to be metal shrapnel flying at speeds typically only seen in combat situations. So you can imagine what that would do to anyone around.
For safety and cost sake, just demolish it and build a new one.
Thanks for finally letting me know what the name of that thing is. I'll start using that from now on.
would this have happened regardless of the original cable popping out? I assume these cables were rated for a certain number of years and the observatory is approaching 6 decades of service.
This is a sad moment, 2020 you twisted beast.
Just when you tought it could not get any worse 😩😢
That's actually worse than all that corona bullshit!
@@TheDrunkenMug Come on. It could get plenty worse. Nukes, asteroids, supervolcanos... you name it.
@@vaclavcervinka65 Someone with a negative attitude said:
"This can't get any worse!"
To which the positive person said:
"Oh , yes it can!" 🤣🤣🤣
@@vaclavcervinka65 shhh. don't jinx it.
So basically near earth asteroids are going to get a lot less speeding tickets now. So be careful out there and always look to the left and right before crossing.
Brilliant! Made me chuckle.
Mind the gap!
and always look to the left and right and up and down before crossing.
-Fixed it
“Call of modern duty warfare”
You should go level the dish in BF4 it’s quite a trip
yuuuup, I got reminded of the bf map when I saw the thumbnail
And BF4 takes place in 2020 🤔
DICE stop immediately whatever it is you're doing
the thing is the area it takes place in is in china
@@dominatr109 yeah in the game its like a mix of the two
Puerto Rico!!!
James Bond - Golden Eye ending coming to reality...
I was gonna say that lol
The video game was awesome. Still holds up today.
*witnesses dish fall*
Hmmm my preminition was correct.
@@irvhh143 I'd like to play it with a modern control scheme. The original one is weird to use today lol. Still the game is amazing, don't get me wrong.
Lolol facts
the reason for it closing is the lack of will.
getting from the US , 1989 soviet vibe.
They should do a crowdfunding where you can buy a piece of the old telescope.
I was thinking the same thing.
When it's destroyed or to own just like the own a peice of the sky sellers?
Thst said Latin America having some issues this last couple. Years we probably could.
@@derrekvanee4567 I mean when it is destroyed an actual piece. This would be fun for both science fans, movie and all fans the other appearances the telescope made
The cost of dismantling and shipping pieces of the old telescope would eat up most of the crowd funding capital.
Just crowd fund the repair and upkeep with no strings attached
There will definitely be no shortage of pieces!
Just looking at the pictures it seems like they didn’t even take care of it superficially. That’s a bad sign.
I thought it got destroyed when it fell on Boromir?
"Frodooooooo, I'm sorryyyyyy!" *squish*
@@NightRunner417 For the Shire James?
008?
I set the timer for 6 minutes, the same 6 minutes you gave me.
@@PaulV3D Close the door, Alec - there's a draft!
If they didn't repair it when it was "cheap" and "easy", I strongly doubt they will do it now that it is so hard and expensive...
This will be the epitaph of the Earth itself.
And more dangerous since more cables are starting to fail. If anyone might try to repair, there's a big risk the cable whipping at someone and slicing them in half. No one will risk their lives for that.
@@nicmaz37 given the thickness of the cables, their whole trunk would just be crushed, the arms and fibulas might survive.
Especially because it’s in Puerto Rico. Also, I’m from there :)
@@coquimapping8680 A shithole like south africa , congrats
When scott used that thumbnail i fr thoyght he was gonna play bf4 to show us the sattelite
RIP Arecibo, we knew you well and it is a sad day, today, December 3, 2020. It is done. Thank you for all you brought to us over the decades.
Yep, I hate this year
@Scott Manley, out of all people, you'd be the person to start the funding campaign to have Arecibo repaired. With your credibility, community and reach, you could expect a snowball with other space fans joining in. Consider it please, it is not too late!
It's a nice thought, but is funding even the issue here? Sure, low funding in the past caused this to happen, but now it's a matter of safety.
@@Noodlion I agree it is not solely a money problem. Yet enough cash could provide the safety net necessary, whatever it means in terms of actual actions and hardware.
When the Hubble Space Telescope goes silent, that will be the real bummer !
Here's hoping the James Webb telescope launches on schedule, currently Halloween 2021.
There's still time for this to happen in 2020.
@@WalkaCrookedLine It'll be a spooky launch
We need space shuttle 2.0. Or... 3.0? 2.0 was Buran
not to worry. we’ll build space-based telescopes that hubble won’t be worthy of being a sighting scope for.
I live in Puerto Rico and have visited the telescope several times, I must say it is impressive and truly a scientific jewel. Very sad to see it damaged. Hopefully there can still be some research done with the instruments left.
I remember when Golden Eye showed this.
Thanks for clarifying I was wondering if it was the place that's why I clicked
It was also used in the movie, Contact, with Jodie Foster.
next time i watch the movie "CONTACT"
Its gonna hit really hard...
I bet this was David Drumlin at it again.
I watched it with my brother on Thursday after the announcement. It really did.
Gonna watch it this weekend!
@@elzar760 he was the one who stole the funding for repairs lol
@@nicmaz37 he heard someone was doing seti out there.
“You were good son, real good, maybe even the best”
As a Puerto Rican, I am very sad to see it go. I went there once as a child, and never got the chance to go again. Now its gone.
The important thing is that you went and experienced that mammoth of a dish sadly I’ll never get to see it 😢
Preparations for the December 25th Alien Invasion are proceeding well, then.
When they do the demolition, I hope someone sets up a dummy with Sean Beans face on it at the bottom.
The moon is a good place to build a replacement.
That would need a lot of maintenance from tiny meteorites punching holes in the dish. Here we have atmosphere that stops those
@@TheKwiatek Dish doesn't have to be perfect, to be effective. Aracibo itself is proof of that.
@@interstellarsurfer
Yep, Arecibo is full of holes to let the rain through. My ex is Puerto Rican, it was a neat place to visit.
It's too expensive to fly all those Puerto Ricans up there to build it.
@@TheKwiatek you could do a liquid mercury mirror that you edit the spin of to edit the focus. Isaac Arthur talked about this idea.
Inverse Square Rule: Doubling the number of committee members quarters the useful output....
In addition: the Double Inverse Square Rule also quadruples the costs.
Never has a more accurate statement been made. It ranks right up there with, "sure, I'll have another beer."
None of us is as dumb as all of us
Scott I'm from Puerto Rico and the Arecibo Radio Telescope was something that we visited as school kids to see what we as a specie are able to do. Now it's going to be forgotten. It's very sad this gets to the point of being scraped.
If the funding could be scratched together, rebuild a bigger, better version in the same location. Helps Puerto Ricans with construction jobs for a while, and we get a better, improved instrument.
Hopefully with a platform that can be raised and lowered from the ground to better facilitate maintenance and upgrades so THIS doesn't happen again.
How can you build it bigger? It's literally part of the landscape. Unless you build it in the huge meteorite crater in Arizona.
People already built a larger one in China, with a diameter of over 500 hundred meters.
@@tapist3482 That one involved demolishing a couple of villages.
@@ptonpc Yes, considering how sensitive the science equipments in that telescope are, any radio activity on the target frequencies of the telescope should be limited.
And the most efficient way to do that is to move everyone irrelevant away.
Apparently, this was NOT "only in Battlefield 4."
It was also in one of the bond movies if memory serves me right, I think it was goldeneye
@@Rikard_Nilsson and the movie Contact
:( rip sweet dish you were one of the greats.
Call of Modern Duty Warfare ^^ . I love this because it summs it up great :)
Played once on this map ;P
As a metallurgical engineer my gut instinct on why the first cable failed at only 60% of its expected breaking strength is the cable probably experienced some fatigue.
Likely they spent all the money given to them by Murica for maintenance on other things instead. Least the money can now be spent back home.
Sitting in the jungle for how long? Yeah I think there might be issues.
How many tropical storms and hurricanes has it gone through? That had to take its toll.
I agree. Probably wind causing oscillations in the instrument and therefore the cables. Just slowly work hardened the cables over the decades. Add that to not enough money for maintaining it properly...
These cables do need maintenance, if not properly greased the will accumulate water in the core and start rusting from the inside out. A cable may look good from the outside but may be totally rotten from the inside. especially if they have painted the cables (looks like the did just that). The paint will trap the water inside the cables
Hey Scott, I wonder if it can be replaced by a huge phased array antenna some place in a desert? Phased array wasn't even thought if when this behemoth was designed in the 60s. Seems to me this would be likely candidate to replace ariciebo.
I remember visiting this telescope around 2002 and was awe strict by its size. I would always hope that SETI would find something by now
Sadly, it fell today. It is gone forever. Thank you for giving it so much attention.
im baffled there are cables from the 60s still being in that structure, i've seen 6 month old 200ton cables snap.
And to tear this down ? man thats a bigger job than the build if u want to do it safely.
Tearing it down will be very easy. A charge on each tower should do it. In fact, if you're not in a hurry, just wait and it'll finish disassembling itself without anyone having to do a thing.
@Minonian It's really already too late to do anything to save it. When the main cable broke it sealed its fate. There's no safe way. Demolishing it is the least dangerous option.
@Minonian The problem is the entire structure will collapse with the loss of another cable, and that can happen literally at any moment. If anyone is on or near the structure when this happens, they'll likely be killed or seriously injured. People can't even go up on the platform to remove scientific instruments mounted there. You certainly wouldn't want to be up on the platform pulling up tons of replacement cable. They're at the point now where nobody can go near it. They'll place some charges at the end of the anchor points, and let it crash to the ground.
@Minonian The people on site have already done the analysis and risk assessment and the conclusion reached last week was that no further repair will be attempted and the telescope will be destroyed.
@Minonian Well, I think I decoded your broken English correctly. But maybe not. You want the people on site to decide if fixing it is worth the risk or not. I'm telling you they've already done so. The answer was no. They decided it was not worth any further risk.
Aliens next year:"i sent you coordinate, plz respond"
they did it was called the WOW signal 6EQUj5 August 15, 1977
@@TheSilmarillian that was debunked
@@TheSilmarillian The problem is that the signal didn't repeat. You can't scrutinize it if it doesn't repeat. May as well be a random fault then.
@@BlackEpyon Interesting brings 2 mind how long is a piece of string
Got to visit the observatory a few times during my teens (was raised in PR). Got to say, films do not make it justice. It really was (and hopefully will remain) an incredible sight to behold! Definitely one of the highlights of the island from a tourism point of view, and one of the best day trips if you lived there, even if you weren't familiar with the science being done. So much so that this video made me really sad... Nostalgic!
That closing argument is so good. Damn.
I think I'm going to watch *Contact* this weekend. Just to remember...
Time for Arecibo in space.
5 starship flights is 500 tons😸. BTW I was in Puerto Rico in 2013, but Arecibo was not accepting visitors when I wanted to visit, so I was like 20 kilometers from it and did not see it.😾
The fact that humans thought, designed, and built something so large and precise to get data from something so far away, amazing and mind boggling.
Imagine if we had world peace, we'd have another 10 of em around the world
What's equally more boggling is they could let it deteriorate to the condition it is now!
@@GaryNumeroUno fear not , when the world will face another catastrophe..they will turn to sceince to save them..and this time we should ensure politicians die
@@RubbittTheBruise a little correction , "Western world Decay"
We in the east have been powerhouses in the east and will continue to do so..its only the beginning
The main difference lies in not having a retarded view of freedom and total loyalty to the government
For safety demolish in a controlled manner. For science, rebuild as a priority. The detailed, accurate measurements from this location has the ability to lead to new understanding via confirmation of theories.
Repairing the dish while hanging from helicopters sounds so James Bond.
I guess that's one way to put it. I can think of several others but most of them aren't appropriate for a TH-cam comment thread. :)
SCOTT!! It collapsed just now :'(
It was amazing to see in person, when we moved to P.R. in 1987. We got to go into the control center at that time as my Father worked for Motorola at the time and was working on a project for the FBI. It was very cool and left a lasting impression. I really hope it can be fixed or replaced with an even better version!
Iconic instrument. I hope they build a dedicated museum to highlight it's history. Puerto Rico needs all the tourists it can get.
2020: cables designed to hold 500 tons snap under the strain. That checks out!
Notice that the cables are suspending the plattform from the sides and not from straight up above. That adds A LOT more stress onto them.
You can test this with a coffee mug and a string around its handle, holding either end of the string in either one of your hands and then start pulling. Forces are immense!
Also there isn't and wasn't anyone to fix the damaged portions of cables regularly like high tension power lines. It was and is mismanaged with maintenance and inspections. It's not like important infrastructure that is regulated by government like power lines, roadways, bridges, communications, etc.
@@nicmaz37 if is not regulated by government is even better because in that case all you need is money. And money can be crowd funded. Getting approvals and swimming for years in endless paperwork is much worse then just getting money to do something.
Well that's sad news... Oh well, we'll always have Contact and Goldeneye.
Was literally supposed to take my vacation there last winter... and then Covid. And now it won't happen at all. Thanks 2020.
Cables do deteriorate. For years the Forth Road Bridge (Scotland) had or has sensors to monitor the cables there. Same era as the telescope. Difference is that a new bridge was built in good time, and no disaster.
Sad seeing this go. I've been to Puerto Rico but never seen this in person. Hopefully it gets saved.
At least we can see the real life reenactment of the James Bond ending. And it will go viral for sure.
If only there was a philanthropist with billions of dollars and a private space agency that could afford to rebuild it.
I don’t think he has much interest in looking at space from earth. V2 on Mars maybe?
@@thevoiceofcake I was talking about Bezos actually. Maybe he'll build one on the Moon.
@@dolebiscuit I thought you were talking about Musk. Bezos hasn't got their rocket off the ground yet, so it's unlikely they can shift priorities and fund its restoration anytime soon.
@@triadwarfare he has it off the ground. I think they are still sub-orbital though
I lived in Puerto Rico for 17 years. I grew up there practically. My family and I tried to drive to the Arecibo Observatory in the mid to late 1980s, but our car broke down on the way and we never made it. So don’t feel too bad. I wish I could have gone to see it at some point. Knowing all of the important science it was part of, I do hope the dish can be rebuilt one day soon, and to more modern standards.
My goodness that moment you flash back to your childhood watching Golden eye seeing this instrument for the first time
Maybe they can get some of that Hollywood money. They’ve been milking that alien stuff forever.
Seems like an awful waste of space.
I love you for that reference... Arecibo was first introduced to me as a kid through Contact.
This makes me Sad. We can have endless hearings and investigations but can't save our beloved science instruments.
I got to visit the site in 2004. So glad I did and hope it can be saved somehow!