The algorithm has been feeding me your content a lot over the last few days, I have to say I'm impressed. I didn't think I could get into another Tolkien channel because I feel like everything's been done, but your eloquence and the way you tie a narrative together is really great.
Wow! Never thought of the destruction of the One Ring as "doing the Ringwraiths a favour". Excellent original angle from yet another fine TH-cam Tolkien scholar.
I agree with your assessment that the men who accepted the rings were not necessarily evil. Sauron deceived the men of Numenor as well as some of the wisest of the Elves.
The rings feel a lot like a “keep your enemies closer” moment to me. You have 9 rings to award, knowing what they will do to the people you choose. You could choose to empower someone who is already on your side. Or you could select bearers from the people who, maybe not against you, but strong enough and neutral enough to possibly become your enemies. That way you make sure 9 potential enemies or enemy nations or uprisings or what have you, instead become places where the influential people are becoming mindlessly loyal to you. Putting out fires before they happen.
8:39 Great timing, I read the passage just yesterday. I think it shows that the mental enslavement to Sauron was not a given only by accepting the ring, but rather that Sauron had to invest time and attention in order to master the other ringbearers. So if Sauron was somehow not wearing the One while the Nine had their rings, I reckon they would still be corrupted but probably not be that strongly bound to Sauron.
As a friend of mine pointed out when discussing the Nazgul, they are terrifying, but these is also a element of pathos to them. Interesting aside, when a Tolkein RPG was released in the 80s, the creators had to make-up a lot of the content. When they got to the Nazgul, they made one of them a former queen.
One thing I find interesting about the Books vs Movies is how Sauron acts more human (for lack of a better word) in the books. In the books he’s buying horses from Rohan and tries setting up diplomatic relations with the dwarves. That seems like what a regular mortal king might do. In the movies he’s way more mystical (he is a giant fiery eye after all), where all his tricks and beasts seem to just appear for him. He’s more omnipotent. In the books, he acts very similarly to gods and nature-spirits in Greek mythology. Can be wounded by mortal men, more limited in powers, interacts with mortals, etc.
I think also by the 3rd age he seems more "omnipotent" bc he's actually a lot weaker and has to have everyone do everything for him. His plans had pretty much come to fruition by the time of the LOTR so his threat seems much larger despite his weak form to the hobbits than he was in the 2nd age. It's really ironic but such good writing
This is probably a controversial opinion but i much prefer the God-like Sauron of the movies, in the books he doesn't feel like as much of a threat despite the narration and everyone telling you he is.
@@aldiascholarofthefirstsin1051 I don’t disagree! It makes it seems like they’re facing against bigger odds/ the stakes are higher! I think I prefer the books more just because it feels more like mythology/history (which was Tolkien’s goal)
I never thought about Sauron's cruelty in terms of robbing the Nine of the gift of Men. Sauron must have inherited Morgoth's jealousy of the Children of Illuvatar; that conclusion honestly made me feel really sad.
(Today, I am a retired elderly grandmother and lifelong dyk___.) When I was in middle school (during the Jurassic age), my best friend, a boy, were part of a tabletop D&D group (I was the only girl). One of us heard about a group (a type of group that would later get a name and spawn an entire series of communities: LARP). We all jumped at the chance. They were part of a college group of SCA (Society for Creative Acronyms, er....anachronisms. LOL, that was a funny auto-correct moment.) members who played an annual game of LotR in a Midwestern national park. There were even live horses who played some of the horsed Black Riders, while most of them were Black Stalkers. All were Ring Wraiths. At first, my friends and I played just "men-at-arms," then the next year, orcs. You sort of had to put in your time and after several years, you were allowed to play more powerful characters and eventually named characters. You were issued points based on who you were, then you would get bonus points for armor, weapons, costume. The goal was for the 4 hobbits to put the ring in the "crack of doom" located on the other side of the park. If they succeeded, then the "good guys" side won. If they were all killed and/or the One Ring eventually got into the hands of any of the Ring Wraiths, the "bad guys" won. If the game ended, I think there was a 6 hour time limit for the game, then points were counted up to see which side won, though mostly it was understood that if the ring didn't make it to the "crack of doom" the bad guys won. Good rarely won, which I believe was pretty consistent with the uphill battle the good guys had in the LotR books. It was tons of fun and I played well into college. I ended up getting to play men-at-arms, orcs, Golem, (Oh yeah, Golem could win too. I forgot about that. I don't think he ever did though, it was easy to kill golem as the hobbits had more points than golem and golem didn't get to add armor to his points, though was allowed a dagger and a few points for costume.) I also played a Barrow Wright and a Black Stalker. During the time I was playing, good won at least once if memory served. One of the hobbits was on the University Cross Country running team and at the start of the game where most all started at one side of the park. This hobbit ran, skirting the outside boundaries of the game and made it to the "crack of doom" in like 15 minutes. But it was kind of bogus because the guy was in shorts and running gear, hardly looked the part. I believe they restarted the game with different people. I can't remember, it was a long time ago. But I do remember it being very fun.... .
The theme of death being stolen from the Nazgul is very true. In the Shadow of Mordor video game series, the main protaganist, Talion, is unable to die. Each time he does, he is resurrected because he shares his body with the wraith of Celembrimbor. As Talion puts it, he “banished from death.” His main goal in the first game is simply to get revenge for his family and then die. All he wants in the end is to simply die and reunite with his family. When he becomes a Nazgul at the end of the second game, it is the same situation. When he dies after the One Ring is destroyed, he is relieved as his battle is finally over. The last scene of him is him discarding his armor and weapons as he walks off into the fields of Valinor. Sauron and his lackeys stole death from him, and that’s all he wanted in the end, as Men were created to die at some point and he couldn’t stand being unable to.
He is what would be called Deathless.... rather than Undead, so to speak. Where as the Nazgul is much closer to Undead Wraiths of sort. Talion just won't die, rather than be unkillable. :p
this is as much canon and tolkien as rings of power. i wonder how much of a normie must people be to bring this nonsense into a tolkien discussion. you can as well bring in gayporn fanfic ideas and they will be thousandfold more canon than this. because writers of these fanfics did read tolkien unlike this gaem devs.
Great game that is, the second one. I bought the ultimate edition or definitive edition or whatever and even though I’m a big gamer I don’t go for 100% completion in games. Not even Assassins Creed and they’re my favorite franchise but this game I came close.
Wow Dave, how have you made me feel empathetic towards the Nazgûl. I guess it’s down to your beautiful gift to retell the world of Tolkien. So many thanks for you and your channel 🧝♂️
The Nazgul’s limitations vary throughout the story: in the beginning, when Frodo was leaving the Shire, they were much weaker than by the time of the Battle on the Pellenor Fields.
I always figured that the closer to "home" as it were increased their power. For wraiths and the Ring in particular. Like getting a better signal the closer you sit to the router x
Yet another excellent video. Your take on the nazgul is spot on!!! Of coarse, Tolkien would approve for the Nazgul we’re trapped by Sauron. But your point that the gift of death from Eru was stolen by Sauron is a true and brilliant insight. You need to write a book.
It's been decades since I read the books and watched the movies, I have no idea why you were recommended to me by the algorithm, but I'm extremely grateful for it. Thank you for answering so many of the questions I've had for such a long time
Was it Khamul the Easterling who said "Give up the Halfling, She-Elf!" in the film? If so, that would be quite interesting because it would mean that only Khamul the Easterling and The Witch-King of Angmar ever receive a speaking part in the entire trilogy, with the exception of demonic shrieking.
I'm not sure who delivered that line in the movies, but it was definitely Khamul who said "Shire. Baggins" to the Hobbit with the barking dog. So he definitely does get at least one line of dialogue.
@@tolkienuntangled Another note about Khamul: As you noted, he was the Nazgul whose abilities were most diminished by sunlight. When the three hobbits (Frodo, Sam, Pippin) encounter the Black Rider, we're told that the sun was getting low, but it's still up, and the light of afternoon was on the land. Given that we know this Rider is Khamul, it's likely that whatever sight he had was overwhelmed by the daylight, and his supernatural hearing diminished because of the sun, as well. All he'd have left is.... sniffing.
Not 100% sure, but 8 know Andy Serkis did MOST, if not all of the secondary 'evil' characters. "Shire, Baggins" and "Yeeah! Why can't we have some meat?" confirmed, but I reckon he did more too.
I know it's all speculation but I have to disagree on who Sauron gave the rings to. You mention he probably gave them to people who were loyal but given that it's heavily implied that Sauron was seeking to subjugate all of middle earth, he most likely would have given it to people in high positions of power (lords and kings) who would need a lot of swaying to turn to evil, but could also be corrupted by power as all men are. This way he could conquer as much land as he could without "firing a shot".
The Nazgul are my favorite bad guys. It's clear how awesome they are since SO many fantasy authors have copied them in later works. The Myrdraal, the Skull-Bearers, all inspired by these guys.
I had once thought about trying to write fan fiction from the perspective of the Nazgul, trying to imagine what it is like to be one, in order to write from that view point. The narrator of this video alludes to the unending weariness, but doesn't mention Gandalf's discussion in The Shadow of the Past, where he says that a mortal who possesses one of the great rings does not grow or gain more life; he merely continues until at last every moment is a weariness. I take this to be a more detailed description of what it means when "life became unendurable". My best guess as to what this would have been like is based on the more narrow experience of sleep deprivation. Imagine being forced to remain awake for an entire month or longer. No rest, cannot sleep, and your body aches more and more for want of sleep, but you're never given this release, ever, because you chose to surrender control over yourself to someone else who can inflict this on you and keep you in the world. But your thoughts and will remain trapped in your mortal form and you cannot die, even if you wanted to, because your will can be overridden by another who moves you according to their will. The narrator also mentions that death is the normal fate of all who are of the race of Men. So their wills being chained like this and never being allowed to leave the Circles of the World is indeed a kind of distortion or abomination of Illuvatar's intentions. When the One ring was destroyed it's perhaps like all those thousands of years that were held at bay via their rings and the One caught up to them in moments and they crumbled to dust and perhaps then their spirits finally left the world. What welcome they might get from Mandos or whoever, is another question.
What a great video. Thanks my guy. The most detailed and informative video on the 9 I’ve seen so far on TH-cam and that’s saying a lot because I have searched for many of them. They’re one of if not my top favorite subject in Tolkien’s legendarium . So thank you for this one.
I've always felt that the 9 didn't want the one ring found at all and they were phoning it in hoping to die rather than spending the rest of time further under Saurons control after he found the one ring.
Such a great story could be Sauron the Deceiver wandering around Middle Earth in the Second Age, like Nick Fury, seeking out men with "special talents" - you see, he's building a kind of "team"...
I always love seeing videos the stay true to and delve into the written lore of Tolkien's greatest world. So many works these days are often based on middle earth and its stories and I often find myself learning something I may have missed upon my own reading of the stories.
Considering the fact that the Nazgül are known to ride their horses hard, fierce and swiftly...maybe one of them is an ancestor of some kind to the Rohirrim?
I particularly enjoyed this one, man. All your videos I've seen so far have been eye-opening and intriguing. I thought I knew LOTR quite well, but not only have I learned much of the lore through your channel, but I find myself thinking about it in a different light too. You really know your onions from your orodruin! Very enjoyable ❤
The details and your deep analysis of Tolkien's works always astound me. Thank you for sharing your expertise and passion with this works. May you have more subscribers and viewers.
This was an amazing study of the Nazgul to me. You corrected a few misconceptions that I had. With my overtly analytical brain I found similarities to a sci storyline and even parallels to some religious beliefs. Thank you for this awesome vid.
I love your videos and I have learned so much about the Legendarium. I do think that you might be underestimating how much of the map is not covered in Tolkien's writing. The term Easterling could possibly be referring to an area much farther east than Rhun.
There's no way Gothmog was a orc. The epithet "Lieutenant of Morgul" clearly puts him second-in-command to the Witch-King himself in the hierarchy of Minas Morgul and its army, and therefore of higher rank than even the other Nazgul who dwelt there... and no orc would EVER have outranked, or been given a position of military command over, the Nazgul in that way in Tolkien's writings. The same would almost certainly apply to a Black Numenorean. The only lore-friendly way for Gothmog to have outranked the other Minas Morgul Nazgul in the way that he did would be for him to have been a high-ranking Nazgul himself.
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy I would assume that Gothmog was an epithet or name he'd assumed or been given while in the service of Sauron, rather than his actual birth-name; in much the same way as Herumor, Fuinur, Khamul etc seem to be. It seems that quite a few of Sauron's high-ranking followers/servants assumed new names or titles with menacing meanings while in his service. Perhaps Sauron himself gave them those names after taking away their original identities? Who knows.
I also think Gothmog has to be a Nazgul; everything else would not make sense in context of Tolkien's narrative. We see again and again that the Dark Lords give the command of their armies to magical beings if they're available: Morgoth has the Balrogs and Dragons; Sauron has the Nazgul. A mortal man or even orc (whom even Sauron values so little that he swaps them out for men wherever he can) could have only taken the lead if there had been no other Ringwraiths participating in the battle, but they definitely did.
@@someobserver844 I would lean towards a black numenorean myself, but I think the case he was a non-Orc is pretty solid. Just makes you wish Tolkien had filled in a few more blank spaces
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy I'm fine with that "gap" I have to say. Stories, fantasy or not, hugely benefit from not everything being spelled out or being explained to death. Besides, as I said, I really don't think it's much of an ambiguity if you take the hierarchies among Sauron's servants into account.
Its also been described in the books by Aragorn on Wheathertop that the Ringwraiths have terrible eyesight during the day and heavily rely upon their horses. It gets better in the darkness and can see all beings that reside in the Unseen world clearly.
I’d bet my best batch of Old Toby the Witch-King is Tar-Atanamir the 13th ruler of Numenor. Dork Lord made a video about it and makes a compelling case! As far as the others (besides Khamul) I think it likely Tolkien had in mind a general identity for each of them like “warlord from rhun” or something along those lines etc but not something specific like a name or date of birth
I don’t have time to watch the channel’s I’m all ready subscribed to as on average about 28 hours of content comes out per day from these channels and even a U.S. public school education tells me that’s more than 24 hours . I believe I will subscribe to this channel after having only seen this one video.
It could be that the effects of wearing the ring are cumulative. Sam felt the first ones, Frodo a bit further. The Nazgûl would be fully trapped in the shadow world. glorfindel
I wouldn't say the Nazgul were freed. Once their soul had become bound to their ring, they effectively became the same as Sauron. I.e. with his Ring destroyed (and all the power he'd put into it forever lost to him), he became dark whisper trapped forever in the unseen lands, no longer with the power to ever even touch the World of Men again. Likewise humans were never meant to be in the unseen lands, so it's possible that once they became fully wraiths without the ring and became immortal, they were no longer capable of receiving the Gift of Eru that mortals receive. They simply are now permanently trapped in the unseen world without their rings to anchor them to the physical world and give them a measure of existence there, attaining the immortality they sought but without the power to actually do anything with it without their rings, similar to the diminished forms of Sauron and Sarumon.
I have been a Lord the ring fan for decades - so this is a familiar story for me. Nevertheless, your narration and detail made the story come alive for me! Thank you!👍
A what if for you I have just a rough sketching of. Since this vid involves the Ring Wraitns, this what if does feature the Witch King. The Great Plague of 1636 of the Third Age. This plague is so devastating, the race of Men is decimated . Yes, Eriador was affected, but the land was already depopulated. So the lands of Gondor were heavily depopulated (in keeping with Tolkien's works!) The difference in this, only 10% of Men in the East & South survived! With so few survivors, why does Sauron need with the race of Men? A rough sketch, but I hope interesting.
Narraror: "Those who used the nine rings became mighty in their day... They obtained glory and great wealth-" Bezos, Musk, & Branson: "We're listening..."
I re-watched FotR last night - the first time I've watched it in ~15 years, and it's been longer since I read the books - but it really stood out to me how easily fooled & defeated the Ringwraiths were. When Aragorn single-handedly fends off 5 of them with a torch and a sword at Weathertop, I was like "these are Saurons _mightiest_ and _most terrifying_ servants? No wonder he was destined to lose." Hell, the cave troll in Moria was a more formidable opponent.
He "defeated" them, but they had no reason to fight. Frodo had been stabbed; inexorably, he would pass into their world. They had no more business on Weathertop. They were simply going to wait for the blade to do its work.
That’s the problem I have with them in the movies, like realistically they would wipe the floor with the main characters, but they don’t because there wouldn’t be a movie then.
It wasn't up to chance. They had no idea that anything in Middle Earth would be able to prevent Frodo's fading. He would soon be as they are and they would have him.
@@brushylake4606 Do they ever do *anything* successfully? Seriously. After they stab Frodo and Aragorn scares them off Arwen / Glorfindel showed up and scurried him away. This time *all 9* of Saurons *mightiest* and *most terrifying* servants were outmatched by 1 and get themselves discorporated by a river. That's 2 consecutive encounters! Their biggest victory is when WKoA throws Theodens horse and it falls on him. But even then, he doesn't actually kill Theoden directly. In fact he's dead before Theoden is because Eowyn chops off his rides head and stabs him in the face... I can't think of *one single encounter* where a Nazgul actually accomplishes whatever it set out to do. Now I'm gonna have to go back and read the books.
I always assumed Gothmog was one of the Nine as I couldn’t see the Nazgûl under Sauron allowing an Orc to have command Would Sauron not have instructed one of the Nine to take command. But then I guess that’s where imagination and mystery takes over.
In the Lord of the Rings Online game (not canon), they had Gothmog be a lesser wraith who was the Witch King's steward in Angmar. Wouldn't have gone this route personally when you could just have it be a different Nazgul or a Mouth of Sauron type
Interesting what you say about the destruction of the Ring being a lifting of burdens for the Nazgul. It reminds me of the ending of Shadow of War. Regardless of the creative liberties those games took, I quite enjoyed the way it ended. And now because of this I can enjoy it even more.
My only theory on a nazgul origin is that the Witch King was a relation to the royal line of Numenor, maybe a cousin, who desperately desired to be a king. This is why he was titled a king under Sauron's power; he was given the title he craved above everything else
10:04 - So were they invisible to each other as well? Since they each lived so long, then fell ‘one by one’, what’re the odds they even knew each other before? Heck, maybe they each thought they were ‘Sauron’s main guy’, clueless that their were eight other guys on the team.. ...although posing for that kick-ass yearbook photo might have tipped them all off.
When they were all wraiths they'd be able to see each other, just as they can see Frodo when he enters the wraith world. But I imagine they'd all see each other as pale grey kings and not the riders in black that we're familiar with.
I would argue the opposite: the 5 rings would not be given to the ones that are already allies of Sauron/Morgoth, rather to the ones who needed to be corrupted.
Unless the reason they were allied with him at the end of the Third Age is because they were corrupted earlier by the Ringwraiths. Granted, that probably wouldn't explain all of them, but it works for some.
Being in the 'Wraith World' sounds quite similar to the experience of being on Ketamine. Vision is messed up horribly, blurry, pixilated, colours are wrong, a blue sky is pink etc, but hearing is SO strange, you can hear the gears of the world turning, as a low deep grinding rumble, you can hear the grass 15 miles away breathing. It's a VERY strange experience!
My thoughts on why the 9 don't wear the rings is that it is for security. With the one being lost if someone were to find it and put it on, that person could then feasibly control the 9 if they are wearing the rings. And with them already having their powers there is no real need for the rings. I imagine the rings also have to stay intact as well to keep the 9 under the control of Sauron, hence them being kept in a strong hold. And I guess you can't give the rings to other people to make more nazgul, otherwise he totally would have.
To this day, if I see the actor who played Faramir in another movie, I’m just expecting him to look upwards and scream: “Naaaazguuuuuuul!” with a twisted expression on his face.
Could easily been a Nűmenorians who lived in the east ex in Umbar. A lord Nűmenorian could probably become king of an area if he has the followers, and would have an army/soldiers since being a lord. After the destruction of Nűmenor the power hungry lords & people living in their middle earths colonies would with guarantee seek power, especially the kings-men. Since they thought of themself as much superior to other men which they also was. As they did no longer have a king or a real home and they were now free to conquere, which they would instantly start to. I'll bet most of the easterling kingdoms once had a kings who was Nűmenorian and later kings with nűmenorian descendens. Look at the Gondorian kinstrife, the lost side leaders went east. Even the faithful was hungry for power.
The nation of Rhudaur was one of the breakaway kingdoms in the North and did not exist in the Second Age, though there could have been other realms of men in the vicinity. Also, I’m not sure that the Nazgûl had the Rings taken from them until Sauron lost the One Ring; so sometime in the Third Age after Sauron rose again. Though that might be debatable.
An interesting fact is that the Nine have corpereal forms. It is described int the last book that Merry's blade cut through the Witch King's undead flesh.
The way you can imagine the Nazgul need to be clothed can be compared to the ghosts in Pac-Man. Eating the ghosts in Pac-Man doesn't destroy them, but only removes their garments where they have to run off to the center of the game to be robed again to interact with the player.
So Gothmog was also the commander of the balrogs, then joined the other nazgül? Side note, it'll be interesting to see if RoP try to establish who the Nazgül are. I'm going to bet they do! And I have my sights on Isiduls military friend and the chap trying to usurp the Queen. Both have desires to be powerful.
I thought your reference to death as a "right" was interesting. I've suspected that individuals that sought after immortality might actually be seeking something that could turn out to be a rather nasty trap.
Weren't the Corsairs of Umbar descended from Numenor as well? I seem to recall from the Silmarillion that many of the southern kingdoms were Numenorean settlements that broke away.
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The algorithm has been feeding me your content a lot over the last few days, I have to say I'm impressed. I didn't think I could get into another Tolkien channel because I feel like everything's been done, but your eloquence and the way you tie a narrative together is really great.
Same happened to me
Very much agree
Came here to say this
Ditto!
Also! Although a couple of months later, it seems. Rainbow Dave's playlists have become my preferred nighttime listening to fall asleep to.
Wow! Never thought of the destruction of the One Ring as "doing the Ringwraiths a favour". Excellent original angle from yet another fine TH-cam Tolkien scholar.
I agree with your assessment that the men who accepted the rings were not necessarily evil. Sauron deceived the men of Numenor as well as some of the wisest of the Elves.
The rings feel a lot like a “keep your enemies closer” moment to me. You have 9 rings to award, knowing what they will do to the people you choose. You could choose to empower someone who is already on your side. Or you could select bearers from the people who, maybe not against you, but strong enough and neutral enough to possibly become your enemies. That way you make sure 9 potential enemies or enemy nations or uprisings or what have you, instead become places where the influential people are becoming mindlessly loyal to you. Putting out fires before they happen.
this is exactly why Sauron lets himself be captured by the Numenor in the second age.
Yep, that was just his goal. He originally hoped to do this to the Elves as well, but they figured out his scheme just in time to avoid that.
no shit, that's the whole point
8:39 Great timing, I read the passage just yesterday. I think it shows that the mental enslavement to Sauron was not a given only by accepting the ring, but rather that Sauron had to invest time and attention in order to master the other ringbearers. So if Sauron was somehow not wearing the One while the Nine had their rings, I reckon they would still be corrupted but probably not be that strongly bound to Sauron.
As a friend of mine pointed out when discussing the Nazgul, they are terrifying, but these is also a element of pathos to them.
Interesting aside, when a Tolkein RPG was released in the 80s, the creators had to make-up a lot of the content. When they got to the Nazgul, they made one of them a former queen.
ICE's MERP is best version of Middle Earth rpg.
@@edcrichton9457 Have there been other Middle Earth RPGs? Just curious.
I don't suppose many will praise you for it, but I really liked your description of mortality being a gift.
One thing I find interesting about the Books vs Movies is how Sauron acts more human (for lack of a better word) in the books. In the books he’s buying horses from Rohan and tries setting up diplomatic relations with the dwarves. That seems like what a regular mortal king might do. In the movies he’s way more mystical (he is a giant fiery eye after all), where all his tricks and beasts seem to just appear for him. He’s more omnipotent.
In the books, he acts very similarly to gods and nature-spirits in Greek mythology. Can be wounded by mortal men, more limited in powers, interacts with mortals, etc.
I think also by the 3rd age he seems more "omnipotent" bc he's actually a lot weaker and has to have everyone do everything for him. His plans had pretty much come to fruition by the time of the LOTR so his threat seems much larger despite his weak form to the hobbits than he was in the 2nd age. It's really ironic but such good writing
no. the "eye" is NOT a representation of Sauron. it is merely the projection of his will and insight. like a spell.
Good point. The nazgul demands the door in The Shire opened 'in the name of Mordor' as well. Just like any regular envoy too.
This is probably a controversial opinion but i much prefer the God-like Sauron of the movies, in the books he doesn't feel like as much of a threat despite the narration and everyone telling you he is.
@@aldiascholarofthefirstsin1051 I don’t disagree! It makes it seems like they’re facing against bigger odds/ the stakes are higher! I think I prefer the books more just because it feels more like mythology/history (which was Tolkien’s goal)
I never thought about Sauron's cruelty in terms of robbing the Nine of the gift of Men. Sauron must have inherited Morgoth's jealousy of the Children of Illuvatar; that conclusion honestly made me feel really sad.
(Today, I am a retired elderly grandmother and lifelong dyk___.) When I was in middle school (during the Jurassic age), my best friend, a boy, were part of a tabletop D&D group (I was the only girl). One of us heard about a group (a type of group that would later get a name and spawn an entire series of communities: LARP). We all jumped at the chance. They were part of a college group of SCA (Society for Creative Acronyms, er....anachronisms. LOL, that was a funny auto-correct moment.) members who played an annual game of LotR in a Midwestern national park. There were even live horses who played some of the horsed Black Riders, while most of them were Black Stalkers. All were Ring Wraiths.
At first, my friends and I played just "men-at-arms," then the next year, orcs. You sort of had to put in your time and after several years, you were allowed to play more powerful characters and eventually named characters. You were issued points based on who you were, then you would get bonus points for armor, weapons, costume. The goal was for the 4 hobbits to put the ring in the "crack of doom" located on the other side of the park. If they succeeded, then the "good guys" side won. If they were all killed and/or the One Ring eventually got into the hands of any of the Ring Wraiths, the "bad guys" won. If the game ended, I think there was a 6 hour time limit for the game, then points were counted up to see which side won, though mostly it was understood that if the ring didn't make it to the "crack of doom" the bad guys won. Good rarely won, which I believe was pretty consistent with the uphill battle the good guys had in the LotR books. It was tons of fun and I played well into college.
I ended up getting to play men-at-arms, orcs, Golem, (Oh yeah, Golem could win too. I forgot about that. I don't think he ever did though, it was easy to kill golem as the hobbits had more points than golem and golem didn't get to add armor to his points, though was allowed a dagger and a few points for costume.) I also played a Barrow Wright and a Black Stalker. During the time I was playing, good won at least once if memory served. One of the hobbits was on the University Cross Country running team and at the start of the game where most all started at one side of the park. This hobbit ran, skirting the outside boundaries of the game and made it to the "crack of doom" in like 15 minutes. But it was kind of bogus because the guy was in shorts and running gear, hardly looked the part. I believe they restarted the game with different people. I can't remember, it was a long time ago. But I do remember it being very fun....
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This sounds like an awesome event.!! sounds like fun. I don't think I even know enough people to pull this off today. Great story. Thanks for sharing
I really like this story! Thanks for sharing!
tl;dr
The theme of death being stolen from the Nazgul is very true. In the Shadow of Mordor video game series, the main protaganist, Talion, is unable to die. Each time he does, he is resurrected because he shares his body with the wraith of Celembrimbor. As Talion puts it, he “banished from death.” His main goal in the first game is simply to get revenge for his family and then die. All he wants in the end is to simply die and reunite with his family.
When he becomes a Nazgul at the end of the second game, it is the same situation. When he dies after the One Ring is destroyed, he is relieved as his battle is finally over. The last scene of him is him discarding his armor and weapons as he walks off into the fields of Valinor. Sauron and his lackeys stole death from him, and that’s all he wanted in the end, as Men were created to die at some point and he couldn’t stand being unable to.
He is what would be called Deathless.... rather than Undead, so to speak. Where as the Nazgul is much closer to Undead Wraiths of sort.
Talion just won't die, rather than be unkillable. :p
this is as much canon and tolkien as rings of power. i wonder how much of a normie must people be to bring this nonsense into a tolkien discussion. you can as well bring in gayporn fanfic ideas and they will be thousandfold more canon than this. because writers of these fanfics did read tolkien unlike this gaem devs.
@@stacystacy4289there’s a reason why nobody has liked your comment
@@fantasticmrmonk she has a point though, although I wouldn't have worded as such.
Great game that is, the second one. I bought the ultimate edition or definitive edition or whatever and even though I’m a big gamer I don’t go for 100% completion in games. Not even Assassins Creed and they’re my favorite franchise but this game I came close.
Wow Dave, how have you made me feel empathetic towards the Nazgûl. I guess it’s down to your beautiful gift to retell the world of Tolkien. So many thanks for you and your channel 🧝♂️
The Nazgul’s limitations vary throughout the story: in the beginning, when Frodo was leaving the Shire, they were much weaker than by the time of the Battle on the Pellenor Fields.
I can imagine that was from thier distance from their rings, and their connections to sauron
There's a line about how Sauron "added demonic power" to the witch king in between these two points. Could be he did it for all of them
I always figured that the closer to "home" as it were increased their power. For wraiths and the Ring in particular. Like getting a better signal the closer you sit to the router x
@@eliasripley2357makes sense considering how the ring’s influence grew stronger over Frodo as he got closer to its point of origin
Yet another excellent video. Your take on the nazgul is spot on!!! Of coarse, Tolkien would approve for the Nazgul we’re trapped by Sauron. But your point that the gift of death from Eru was stolen by Sauron is a true and brilliant insight. You need to write a book.
It's been decades since I read the books and watched the movies, I have no idea why you were recommended to me by the algorithm, but I'm extremely grateful for it. Thank you for answering so many of the questions I've had for such a long time
Was it Khamul the Easterling who said "Give up the Halfling, She-Elf!" in the film? If so, that would be quite interesting because it would mean that only Khamul the Easterling and The Witch-King of Angmar ever receive a speaking part in the entire trilogy, with the exception of demonic shrieking.
I'm not sure who delivered that line in the movies, but it was definitely Khamul who said "Shire. Baggins" to the Hobbit with the barking dog. So he definitely does get at least one line of dialogue.
@@tolkienuntangled Another note about Khamul: As you noted, he was the Nazgul whose abilities were most diminished by sunlight. When the three hobbits (Frodo, Sam, Pippin) encounter the Black Rider, we're told that the sun was getting low, but it's still up, and the light of afternoon was on the land. Given that we know this Rider is Khamul, it's likely that whatever sight he had was overwhelmed by the daylight, and his supernatural hearing diminished because of the sun, as well. All he'd have left is.... sniffing.
If we go on voices alone, the "shire, baggins " line is a different voice than the one who says "give up the half ling, she-elf".
Not 100% sure, but 8 know Andy Serkis did MOST, if not all of the secondary 'evil' characters. "Shire, Baggins" and "Yeeah! Why can't we have some meat?" confirmed, but I reckon he did more too.
I’ve been lost in your videos for hours now. Great content. Keep up the phenomenal work dude 👏🏽
Same dude.
Man I love this freaking channel. thank you for all that you do. you are a true one homie!
I know it's all speculation but I have to disagree on who Sauron gave the rings to. You mention he probably gave them to people who were loyal but given that it's heavily implied that Sauron was seeking to subjugate all of middle earth, he most likely would have given it to people in high positions of power (lords and kings) who would need a lot of swaying to turn to evil, but could also be corrupted by power as all men are. This way he could conquer as much land as he could without "firing a shot".
The Nazgul are my favorite bad guys. It's clear how awesome they are since SO many fantasy authors have copied them in later works. The Myrdraal, the Skull-Bearers, all inspired by these guys.
What you said about death in the end makes me wonder if the Nazgul were actually relieved when the ring was destroyed.
I had once thought about trying to write fan fiction from the perspective of the Nazgul, trying to imagine what it is like to be one, in order to write from that view point. The narrator of this video alludes to the unending weariness, but doesn't mention Gandalf's discussion in The Shadow of the Past, where he says that a mortal who possesses one of the great rings does not grow or gain more life; he merely continues until at last every moment is a weariness.
I take this to be a more detailed description of what it means when "life became unendurable". My best guess as to what this would have been like is based on the more narrow experience of sleep deprivation. Imagine being forced to remain awake for an entire month or longer. No rest, cannot sleep, and your body aches more and more for want of sleep, but you're never given this release, ever, because you chose to surrender control over yourself to someone else who can inflict this on you and keep you in the world. But your thoughts and will remain trapped in your mortal form and you cannot die, even if you wanted to, because your will can be overridden by another who moves you according to their will.
The narrator also mentions that death is the normal fate of all who are of the race of Men. So their wills being chained like this and never being allowed to leave the Circles of the World is indeed a kind of distortion or abomination of Illuvatar's intentions. When the One ring was destroyed it's perhaps like all those thousands of years that were held at bay via their rings and the One caught up to them in moments and they crumbled to dust and perhaps then their spirits finally left the world. What welcome they might get from Mandos or whoever, is another question.
I never took into account the facts about The Witch King not being a king. Makes sense. Thanks for the knowledge.
Thanks! 👍 As always: great video!
What a great video. Thanks my guy. The most detailed and informative video on the 9 I’ve seen so far on TH-cam and that’s saying a lot because I have searched for many of them. They’re one of if not my top favorite subject in Tolkien’s legendarium . So thank you for this one.
I've always felt that the 9 didn't want the one ring found at all and they were phoning it in hoping to die rather than spending the rest of time further under Saurons control after he found the one ring.
Quite quitters
I presumed they no longer had a will of their own by then. Terrible shadows under His dark shadow...
Creepy stuff..
The best Tolkien channel 👍👌
Such a great story could be Sauron the Deceiver wandering around Middle Earth in the Second Age, like Nick Fury, seeking out men with "special talents" - you see, he's building a kind of "team"...
I always love seeing videos the stay true to and delve into the written lore of Tolkien's greatest world. So many works these days are often based on middle earth and its stories and I often find myself learning something I may have missed upon my own reading of the stories.
Considering the fact that the Nazgül are known to ride their horses hard, fierce and swiftly...maybe one of them is an ancestor of some kind to the Rohirrim?
I particularly enjoyed this one, man. All your videos I've seen so far have been eye-opening and intriguing. I thought I knew LOTR quite well, but not only have I learned much of the lore through your channel, but I find myself thinking about it in a different light too. You really know your onions from your orodruin! Very enjoyable ❤
You're narration is just so wonderful.
A thought-provoking video, thank you !
Your delivery of the comment at the beginning about the Witchking really made me chuckle. He was just... some guy.
The details and your deep analysis of Tolkien's works always astound me. Thank you for sharing your expertise and passion with this works. May you have more subscribers and viewers.
Great material ☝️
Very interesting analysis.
Great job.
Brilliant! I love how you ended it, too.
Nazghoul scare geese? Now that's truly terrifying.
This was an amazing study of the Nazgul to me. You corrected a few misconceptions that I had. With my overtly analytical brain I found similarities to a sci storyline and even parallels to some religious beliefs. Thank you for this awesome vid.
This makes so much sense to lot of people deverve death and live and those who dies that deserve life. The Nazgul are no exception.
I love your videos and I have learned so much about the Legendarium. I do think that you might be underestimating how much of the map is not covered in Tolkien's writing. The term Easterling could possibly be referring to an area much farther east than Rhun.
There's no way Gothmog was a orc. The epithet "Lieutenant of Morgul" clearly puts him second-in-command to the Witch-King himself in the hierarchy of Minas Morgul and its army, and therefore of higher rank than even the other Nazgul who dwelt there... and no orc would EVER have outranked, or been given a position of military command over, the Nazgul in that way in Tolkien's writings. The same would almost certainly apply to a Black Numenorean. The only lore-friendly way for Gothmog to have outranked the other Minas Morgul Nazgul in the way that he did would be for him to have been a high-ranking Nazgul himself.
Interesting point, but that raises the question how a man got the name Gothmog
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy I would assume that Gothmog was an epithet or name he'd assumed or been given while in the service of Sauron, rather than his actual birth-name; in much the same way as Herumor, Fuinur, Khamul etc seem to be. It seems that quite a few of Sauron's high-ranking followers/servants assumed new names or titles with menacing meanings while in his service. Perhaps Sauron himself gave them those names after taking away their original identities? Who knows.
I also think Gothmog has to be a Nazgul; everything else would not make sense in context of Tolkien's narrative. We see again and again that the Dark Lords give the command of their armies to magical beings if they're available: Morgoth has the Balrogs and Dragons; Sauron has the Nazgul. A mortal man or even orc (whom even Sauron values so little that he swaps them out for men wherever he can) could have only taken the lead if there had been no other Ringwraiths participating in the battle, but they definitely did.
@@someobserver844 I would lean towards a black numenorean myself, but I think the case he was a non-Orc is pretty solid. Just makes you wish Tolkien had filled in a few more blank spaces
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy I'm fine with that "gap" I have to say. Stories, fantasy or not, hugely benefit from not everything being spelled out or being explained to death. Besides, as I said, I really don't think it's much of an ambiguity if you take the hierarchies among Sauron's servants into account.
Another excellent video, thank you
You are my favorite lord of the rings channel you make it so interesting.
Thanks!
Excellent description of mortality. I couldn't agree more
This was fascinating. Thank you
Really enjoy your stuff. Thank you
The unseen world that is referred to in LOTR could be something of an ethereal nature that has both good and bad in it.
Its also been described in the books by Aragorn on Wheathertop that the Ringwraiths have terrible eyesight during the day and heavily rely upon their horses. It gets better in the darkness and can see all beings that reside in the Unseen world clearly.
You make great videos my friend!
There are many great Tolkien channels but this is THE ONE TO... well, you know.
Thanks! I'm really glad you enjoy the channel!
Thanks!
I definitely enjoyed the video, Thankyou!
I’d bet my best batch of Old Toby the Witch-King is Tar-Atanamir the 13th ruler of Numenor. Dork Lord made a video about it and makes a compelling case! As far as the others (besides Khamul) I think it likely Tolkien had in mind a general identity for each of them like “warlord from rhun” or something along those lines etc but not something specific like a name or date of birth
Great job. Thank you .
Great video as always brother!
Ty for your content, it's very peaceful to listen to while I hang out with my bunnies :)
I don’t have time to watch the channel’s I’m all ready subscribed to as on average about 28 hours of content comes out per day from these channels and even a U.S. public school education tells me that’s more than 24 hours . I believe I will subscribe to this channel after having only seen this one video.
It could be that the effects of wearing the ring are cumulative. Sam felt the first ones, Frodo a bit further. The Nazgûl would be fully trapped in the shadow world. glorfindel
Love ur vids dude!! Keep up the great works
Always enjoy your content even though I am slow to get around to it!
I wouldn't say the Nazgul were freed. Once their soul had become bound to their ring, they effectively became the same as Sauron. I.e. with his Ring destroyed (and all the power he'd put into it forever lost to him), he became dark whisper trapped forever in the unseen lands, no longer with the power to ever even touch the World of Men again. Likewise humans were never meant to be in the unseen lands, so it's possible that once they became fully wraiths without the ring and became immortal, they were no longer capable of receiving the Gift of Eru that mortals receive. They simply are now permanently trapped in the unseen world without their rings to anchor them to the physical world and give them a measure of existence there, attaining the immortality they sought but without the power to actually do anything with it without their rings, similar to the diminished forms of Sauron and Sarumon.
What abject Hell, am I right? Not a fate I would fancy, given the choice
Dude the Witch king of Angmar is such a legendary name.
I have been a Lord the ring fan for decades - so this is a familiar story for me. Nevertheless, your narration and detail made the story come alive for me! Thank you!👍
Excellent!! THANK YOU!
That got emotional at the end.
A what if for you I have just a rough sketching of. Since this vid involves the Ring Wraitns, this what if does feature the Witch King. The Great Plague of 1636 of the Third Age. This plague is so devastating, the race of Men is decimated . Yes, Eriador was affected, but the land was already depopulated. So the lands of Gondor were heavily depopulated (in keeping with Tolkien's works!) The difference in this, only 10% of Men in the East & South survived! With so few survivors, why does Sauron need with the race of Men? A rough sketch, but I hope interesting.
It has so much of this in there it's really awesome you could make some killer videos out of it
Narraror: "Those who used the nine rings became mighty in their day... They obtained glory and great wealth-"
Bezos, Musk, & Branson: "We're listening..."
I re-watched FotR last night - the first time I've watched it in ~15 years, and it's been longer since I read the books - but it really stood out to me how easily fooled & defeated the Ringwraiths were. When Aragorn single-handedly fends off 5 of them with a torch and a sword at Weathertop, I was like "these are Saurons _mightiest_ and _most terrifying_ servants? No wonder he was destined to lose." Hell, the cave troll in Moria was a more formidable opponent.
He "defeated" them, but they had no reason to fight. Frodo had been stabbed; inexorably, he would pass into their world. They had no more business on Weathertop. They were simply going to wait for the blade to do its work.
That’s the problem I have with them in the movies, like realistically they would wipe the floor with the main characters, but they don’t because there wouldn’t be a movie then.
@@brushylake4606 why would the 9 leave getting the one ring up to chance?
It wasn't up to chance. They had no idea that anything in Middle Earth would be able to prevent Frodo's fading. He would soon be as they are and they would have him.
@@brushylake4606 Do they ever do *anything* successfully?
Seriously. After they stab Frodo and Aragorn scares them off Arwen / Glorfindel showed up and scurried him away. This time *all 9* of Saurons *mightiest* and *most terrifying* servants were outmatched by 1 and get themselves discorporated by a river. That's 2 consecutive encounters!
Their biggest victory is when WKoA throws Theodens horse and it falls on him. But even then, he doesn't actually kill Theoden directly. In fact he's dead before Theoden is because Eowyn chops off his rides head and stabs him in the face...
I can't think of *one single encounter* where a Nazgul actually accomplishes whatever it set out to do. Now I'm gonna have to go back and read the books.
Very nice inputs ❤
I always assumed Gothmog was one of the Nine as I couldn’t see the Nazgûl under Sauron allowing an Orc to have command
Would Sauron not have instructed one of the Nine to take command.
But then I guess that’s where imagination and mystery takes over.
In the Lord of the Rings Online game (not canon), they had Gothmog be a lesser wraith who was the Witch King's steward in Angmar. Wouldn't have gone this route personally when you could just have it be a different Nazgul or a Mouth of Sauron type
A great analysis
“Enwraithening”: I LOVE IT!
Interesting what you say about the destruction of the Ring being a lifting of burdens for the Nazgul. It reminds me of the ending of Shadow of War. Regardless of the creative liberties those games took, I quite enjoyed the way it ended. And now because of this I can enjoy it even more.
My only theory on a nazgul origin is that the Witch King was a relation to the royal line of Numenor, maybe a cousin, who desperately desired to be a king. This is why he was titled a king under Sauron's power; he was given the title he craved above everything else
The fact you have to fear them literally explains why Arwen says she doesn't fear them and why Aragorn could kick their ass ig
10:04 - So were they invisible to each other as well? Since they each lived so long, then fell ‘one by one’, what’re the odds they even knew each other before? Heck, maybe they each thought they were ‘Sauron’s main guy’, clueless that their were eight other guys on the team..
...although posing for that kick-ass yearbook photo might have tipped them all off.
When they were all wraiths they'd be able to see each other, just as they can see Frodo when he enters the wraith world. But I imagine they'd all see each other as pale grey kings and not the riders in black that we're familiar with.
@@tolkienuntangled Thanks. I was actually kidding - but that is one damn good explanation. Cheers!
Great channel, btw... I dig the elvish intro.
This channel is so dope 👊👊✊
Thanks!
Dang it, you made me feel sad for the Nazgul, you clever knave!
I would argue the opposite: the 5 rings would not be given to the ones that are already allies of Sauron/Morgoth, rather to the ones who needed to be corrupted.
Unless the reason they were allied with him at the end of the Third Age is because they were corrupted earlier by the Ringwraiths. Granted, that probably wouldn't explain all of them, but it works for some.
Wow, ok. Never heard anyone say THAT before. Interesting!
Being in the 'Wraith World' sounds quite similar to the experience of being on Ketamine. Vision is messed up horribly, blurry, pixilated, colours are wrong, a blue sky is pink etc, but hearing is SO strange, you can hear the gears of the world turning, as a low deep grinding rumble, you can hear the grass 15 miles away breathing. It's a VERY strange experience!
11:30 Wow! Very similar connection to the Dungeons and Dragons lore about the plane of shadow vs the plane of the faerie!
My thoughts on why the 9 don't wear the rings is that it is for security. With the one being lost if someone were to find it and put it on, that person could then feasibly control the 9 if they are wearing the rings. And with them already having their powers there is no real need for the rings. I imagine the rings also have to stay intact as well to keep the 9 under the control of Sauron, hence them being kept in a strong hold. And I guess you can't give the rings to other people to make more nazgul, otherwise he totally would have.
oooo that's the glowy necromancer green tower. I never really found a satisfying explanation of what that was intill now.
i know i'm very late to comment, but Frodo saving the wraiths by destroying the ring was something that never occurred to me lol
To this day, if I see the actor who played Faramir in another movie, I’m just expecting him to look upwards and scream: “Naaaazguuuuuuul!” with a twisted expression on his face.
4,000 years is a godforsaken amount of time to be alive. That fact alone puts their situation into perspective.
Could easily been a Nűmenorians who lived in the east ex in Umbar. A lord Nűmenorian could probably become king of an area if he has the followers, and would have an army/soldiers since being a lord. After the destruction of Nűmenor the power hungry lords & people living in their middle earths colonies would with guarantee seek power, especially the kings-men. Since they thought of themself as much superior to other men which they also was. As they did no longer have a king or a real home and they were now free to conquere, which they would instantly start to. I'll bet most of the easterling kingdoms once had a kings who was Nűmenorian and later kings with nűmenorian descendens.
Look at the Gondorian kinstrife, the lost side leaders went east. Even the faithful was hungry for power.
The nation of Rhudaur was one of the breakaway kingdoms in the North and did not exist in the Second Age, though there could have been other realms of men in the vicinity. Also, I’m not sure that the Nazgûl had the Rings taken from them until Sauron lost the One Ring; so sometime in the Third Age after Sauron rose again. Though that might be debatable.
An interesting fact is that the Nine have corpereal forms. It is described int the last book that Merry's blade cut through the Witch King's undead flesh.
The way you can imagine the Nazgul need to be clothed can be compared to the ghosts in Pac-Man. Eating the ghosts in Pac-Man doesn't destroy them, but only removes their garments where they have to run off to the center of the game to be robed again to interact with the player.
That’s a pretty simple and effective way to describe them. I like it.
So Gothmog was also the commander of the balrogs, then joined the other nazgül? Side note, it'll be interesting to see if RoP try to establish who the Nazgül are. I'm going to bet they do! And I have my sights on Isiduls military friend and the chap trying to usurp the Queen. Both have desires to be powerful.
Very good.
If the elves were of both worlds, they shouldve been able to see Bilbo with ring on , like the Nazgul , or Bombadil which were also in both.
Except, the Elves of Mirkwood are Grey, so they have not been on Valinor and thus cannot see Bilbo with the Ring on.
The Nine are fully named and fleshed out in MERP, and it is glorious...
I thought your reference to death as a "right" was interesting. I've suspected that individuals that sought after immortality might actually be seeking something that could turn out to be a rather nasty trap.
Weren't the Corsairs of Umbar descended from Numenor as well? I seem to recall from the Silmarillion that many of the southern kingdoms were Numenorean settlements that broke away.
Frodo and Gollum setting the Nazgul free is like Aragon setting the ghosts in the mountain free or Gandalf setting Theodan free from Saruman.
Yeah that's a really good comparison!
Well, Theoden didn't immediately die, though it didn't take that long. Otherwise, yeah.