I can still run my regular 2k list with throne of skullss rules - all I do is drop Beguile and I can still afford a Vampire Count on Zombie Dragon with Talisman of Protection, Armour of Meteoric Iron and Dread Lance. The drop in points even means I can afford a third Cairn Wraith. It doesn't really do much. I agree with most of your ideas for fixing up the rules. I'd give regular infantry a +1 to their maximum rank bonus, not counting Horde. Really give infantry bonuses for being a big organised block. Always cool to see these discussion videos, would love to see more!
Yeah I dont think it effects characters at 2000 points that much , the vamp dragon is still scary. Its a good idea for lower points games and stops people bringing nonsense to small games.
I like your “random thoughts”. Agree with all of them. Concerning terrain... I liked the old days, where you split the table into 2’x2’ areas and had player selected terrain, one piece per section. Scatter if wanted, just to mix it up. Not sure if that would fly in very competitive tournaments, though. Still, 6-7 pieces, even TO placed is a good start and speeds things up a bit over player placed.
Yeah I really prefer more terrain, at least 7 pieces so the board is not too symetrical and scattering the terrain would be good if players had time to do it, but not too many woods for Wood Elves 😮
The close order and outnumber comments are a no-brainer. The point restriction and army composition suggestions are completely reasonable. I would perhaps add that only a single behemoth/super chariot thingy be allowed per army. Stellar work; 15 out of 10!👏👏👏The competency crisis is real and WHtoW proves it!😉Statler and Waldorf are kings!
I love all these suggestions, including the terrain one - honestly, I would even take that further, terrain location should be randomised not placed to the liking of players, as this can give someone with a gamey mindset an unfair advantage (I played a wood elf player who set up all a lot of forests on the flanks some 12" from my deployment zone, added the complimentary forest that wood elves get and was able to hide everything behind these forests, popping in and outside of them with reserve move to shoot me off with poisoned arrows. Game ended in a draw because I refused trying to chase him, as this would end up in me getting charged by treemen within the forests).
Other than making vortexes unique I’d go further. Once a lore is picked for a wizard it’s not available for any other wizards in the army. Essentially you can only have a lore once in an army. Each list has at least 3 lore choices so it’s doable.
That all sounds sensible to me. I love the new stop/motion animation bit at the end with the folky guitar music. Reminds me of kids' programmes from the late 70s!🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'd also like to see Swiftstride be split into d6 and 3d variants; and only things like Fast Cav or skirmishers qualify; things known for their mobility. Many units that have it now should have their speed accounted for in their movement characteristic. It's just too prevalent now. Also, a successful poison hit (on a 6) gives +1 Strength instead of auto-wound. It's just too good and it's not available to all factions and too available to others.
the rule of 3 for everything is a bit stupid maybe rule of 6 for core and rule of 3 for everything else, the reasoning for Ro6 is your core will be (should be) made up of cheap units like spearmen, archers and cheap cavalry units whereas the rest will be elite troops so there wont be abundance of them.
I agree that the HE dragon is still too good. However, the HE barely have any good units in their roster. If you nerf their dragon, the faction more or less become a d-tier faction rather than a b-tier. You have to look at the army as a whole rather than single units.
Yeah the High elves are pretty soft without a dragon. But if they fix infantry then units like Phoenix Guard and Swordmasters will be better. At the moment all the Elf armies are about the Dragon and shooting.
@@CreakyGamers Maybe, but the problem with Daemons, or Chaos for that matter, through out the years it has flip floped between muliti- or mono god army. So I have to tweek some to get a good army, but lack the motivation since it's a "dead army list". :/
Demons is a bit of a bumme r, I have a whole Khorne demon army that I could rebase , but Old World is not supporting it , so it will stay on round bases incase one day I decide to see how bad 40k is again.
Being two dragon mages nothing wrong with that when coupled up with shadow warriors to go after war machines. I find it humorous how everyone defaulted to dragon hammer. I don't think I've seen a 3000 point game yet. The rules do need some clarification. The layout, and the wording of the rule book is total crap. AS for bretonnians I think new players need to paint up some more knights and give crusaders a try. Bretonnians are a relatively small army model count wise. Fail enough armour saves and wards you can lose a game pretty quickly.
@CreakyGamers on the royal Pegasus yeah. Knights of the Realm don't hit hard enough so I'd say let them keep the peg Knights with 360. If Knights of the Realm had S4 you'd see more pyramids. There is the argument that Bretonnians need more maneuverability than everyone else because they are an all cavalry army that has to seek out CQC
So lizardmen aren't allowed a Slann until 2000 points? What? To make it even better, if we want a level 1 or 2 skink spellcaster, we're not allowed a Saurus Lord (one of either per 1000).
@CreakyGamers yeah it is really tough on us. My solution for level 4 abundance is: each turn, every time a wizard casts or dispels they get a +1 chance of miscasting for all remaining spells/dispels for the turn. So if you want full value from a level 4 your last spell will miscast on a 5 or less. Possibly more if he had some "in play" spells to dispel at the start of turn. Also if you park a level 4 in the middle of the board to dispel loads of wizards the chance of a miscast creeps up fast.
I cannot agree with Suggestion number 5 for the following reason: some armies rely more upon the combination of different save types than others. For example, the dwarves have good armor saves and no access to regen, they would be not affected at all by this change. Meanwhile tomb kings have mediocre armor saves, mediocre ward saves and 5+ regen at most. It is the combination of the three saves that give their infantry or cabalry some resiliance. If you remove this, you end up with blocks of skelentons being hit and wounded at 2+, so the whole block easily dies in one turn. By trying to prevent the abuse of monsters and mounter characters with many saves, you are nerfing the actual army-like troops.
Yeah , maybe ? I dont think infantry blocks have ward saves , the whole Tomb KIng army has regen , 6+ or 5+ for some characters? I think the Dragon with 5+ regen and the armour of ages with the ability to heal the dragon from the priests is still pretty good ?
@CreakyGamers it actually did well in my last game, but only because it got 3 charges through the course of the game. no swiftstride and bound spell lvl2 for something which wants to be in dispel range is the issue (and the crazy cost). vanhels can help the charge movements range at least Fun model though!
Good job ! Yeah it looks OK on paper , but the cost is what kills it for me , it's a lot of points and needs support to get it there and keep it going.
Nice video, I agree with most points. Regarding rules 2 and 5, I would emit some concerns. 2: with this plus close order only for infantry, a dragon could easily lose to a squad of 5-10 men if it wipes its attacks which seems a bit harsh to me 5: a little biased on that, but playing Ogres and TK it would be really rough, considering they have really low armor values. I would modify this rule to "only 2 saves", making you picking 2 saves between armor, ward and regen
Not sure I like this, as it messes with the initiative characteristic, like in 8th, which brought about responses like High Elves ASF and reroll misses if they would strike first anyway, and the need for massive magic spells to counter the big blocks of infantry that were inspired by other such changes that tried to address first lines being wiped out.
It's an interesting one, and shows the split between players who prefer 6th vs 8th (generally anyway). My issue with it is that it increases lethality. More attacks mean more removal, and this leads to bigger units. It also slows the game down as there are more dice to roll. It also devalues the charge and initiative characteristic. Having said that, no steadfast in play would help! Also, it gives infantry something to do. Which is an important consideration. I though making it a universal special rule for elite infantry. Most of the other suggestions help tar pits and high volume units, but not the most elite. Having it as a special rule on things like chosen, pheonix guard, great swords, etc. Where they step up fighting to the front, but take a - 1 to hit (or something) could be fun! It would allow them to attack, but cav etc really shouldn't be charging them in the front..... I also like the idea of giving defensive infantry some mechanics, like spears giving an impact hit when charged by cav or behemoths
I haven’t played all summer but your videos have kept me in the loop. Keep up the great work!
Thanks 👍
I can still run my regular 2k list with throne of skullss rules - all I do is drop Beguile and I can still afford a Vampire Count on Zombie Dragon with Talisman of Protection, Armour of Meteoric Iron and Dread Lance. The drop in points even means I can afford a third Cairn Wraith. It doesn't really do much.
I agree with most of your ideas for fixing up the rules. I'd give regular infantry a +1 to their maximum rank bonus, not counting Horde. Really give infantry bonuses for being a big organised block.
Always cool to see these discussion videos, would love to see more!
Yeah I dont think it effects characters at 2000 points that much , the vamp dragon is still scary. Its a good idea for lower points games and stops people bringing nonsense to small games.
Agree totally with close order, for infantry only. Great ideas!
I like your “random thoughts”. Agree with all of them. Concerning terrain... I liked the old days, where you split the table into 2’x2’ areas and had player selected terrain, one piece per section. Scatter if wanted, just to mix it up. Not sure if that would fly in very competitive tournaments, though. Still, 6-7 pieces, even TO placed is a good start and speeds things up a bit over player placed.
Yeah I really prefer more terrain, at least 7 pieces so the board is not too symetrical and scattering the terrain would be good if players had time to do it, but not too many woods for Wood Elves 😮
The close order and outnumber comments are a no-brainer. The point restriction and army composition suggestions are completely reasonable. I would perhaps add that only a single behemoth/super chariot thingy be allowed per army. Stellar work; 15 out of 10!👏👏👏The competency crisis is real and WHtoW proves it!😉Statler and Waldorf are kings!
Another option would be flaming attacks affecting all regen saves. That would bring down the triple save a bit without removing them.
@Sekuda Good call.
I love all these suggestions, including the terrain one - honestly, I would even take that further, terrain location should be randomised not placed to the liking of players, as this can give someone with a gamey mindset an unfair advantage (I played a wood elf player who set up all a lot of forests on the flanks some 12" from my deployment zone, added the complimentary forest that wood elves get and was able to hide everything behind these forests, popping in and outside of them with reserve move to shoot me off with poisoned arrows. Game ended in a draw because I refused trying to chase him, as this would end up in me getting charged by treemen within the forests).
Wood elf players are a special breed 🤣🤣🤣🫣
A variety of terrain is the way to go.
Other than making vortexes unique I’d go further.
Once a lore is picked for a wizard it’s not available for any other wizards in the army.
Essentially you can only have a lore once in an army.
Each list has at least 3 lore choices so it’s doable.
Yeah good idea , or just no duplicate spells besides signature spells.
That all sounds sensible to me. I love the new stop/motion animation bit at the end with the folky guitar music. Reminds me of kids' programmes from the late 70s!🤣🤣🤣🤣
For spell spam, I think we should go back to 8th Ed version of spell generation: all spells (except signatures) can only be in each army once.
Yeah good idea 👍
Love the ideas at the end. 33% max characters is the most important.
close order infantry only, outnumber and give back the +3 for ranks.
I like um. I might even boost infantry more with fight in two ranks.
I'd also like to see Swiftstride be split into d6 and 3d variants; and only things like Fast Cav or skirmishers qualify; things known for their mobility. Many units that have it now should have their speed accounted for in their movement characteristic. It's just too prevalent now.
Also, a successful poison hit (on a 6) gives +1 Strength instead of auto-wound. It's just too good and it's not available to all factions and too available to others.
Yeah swiftstriding heavy cavalry with barding etc seems too good.
Didn't the Regen or Ward already featured in older editions (I think it was 6th or even 8th) and hope they bring it back
Yeah , but Regen worked different in the old days ? I cant remeber.
the rule of 3 for everything is a bit stupid maybe rule of 6 for core and rule of 3 for everything else, the reasoning for Ro6 is your core will be (should be) made up of cheap units like spearmen, archers and cheap cavalry units whereas the rest will be elite troops so there wont be abundance of them.
I agree with everything here! We need to make you a red M.I.G.A hat.
MIGA 👍
Rule of 3 hits hard on doom seekers 😢
How many do you want to run ??? 😬
@@CreakyGamers Atleast 4 :D
I agree that the HE dragon is still too good. However, the HE barely have any good units in their roster. If you nerf their dragon, the faction more or less become a d-tier faction rather than a b-tier. You have to look at the army as a whole rather than single units.
Yeah the High elves are pretty soft without a dragon. But if they fix infantry then units like Phoenix Guard and Swordmasters will be better. At the moment all the Elf armies are about the Dragon and shooting.
Not played Old World yet, mainly because my main armies has been VC and Daemons. ^^*
I think you can make some good armies with either army 👍
vc is giga broken with the scream list
Yeah I agree , perhaps they need to look at it too.
@@CreakyGamers Maybe, but the problem with Daemons, or Chaos for that matter, through out the years it has flip floped between muliti- or mono god army. So I have to tweek some to get a good army, but lack the motivation since it's a "dead army list". :/
Demons is a bit of a bumme r, I have a whole Khorne demon army that I could rebase , but Old World is not supporting it , so it will stay on round bases incase one day I decide to see how bad 40k is again.
Being two dragon mages nothing wrong with that when coupled up with shadow warriors to go after war machines. I find it humorous how everyone defaulted to dragon hammer. I don't think I've seen a 3000 point game yet. The rules do need some clarification. The layout, and the wording of the rule book is total crap.
AS for bretonnians I think new players need to paint up some more knights and give crusaders a try. Bretonnians are a relatively small army model count wise. Fail enough armour saves and wards you can lose a game pretty quickly.
Do you think the Peg Knights and 360 degree charges are a problem?
@CreakyGamers on the royal Pegasus yeah. Knights of the Realm don't hit hard enough so I'd say let them keep the peg Knights with 360. If Knights of the Realm had S4 you'd see more pyramids.
There is the argument that Bretonnians need more maneuverability than everyone else because they are an all cavalry army that has to seek out CQC
So lizardmen aren't allowed a Slann until 2000 points? What?
To make it even better, if we want a level 1 or 2 skink spellcaster, we're not allowed a Saurus Lord (one of either per 1000).
I dont know anything about lizardmen , but yeah no level 4 wizards below 2000 points.
@CreakyGamers yeah it is really tough on us. My solution for level 4 abundance is: each turn, every time a wizard casts or dispels they get a +1 chance of miscasting for all remaining spells/dispels for the turn.
So if you want full value from a level 4 your last spell will miscast on a 5 or less. Possibly more if he had some "in play" spells to dispel at the start of turn. Also if you park a level 4 in the middle of the board to dispel loads of wizards the chance of a miscast creeps up fast.
The Lizardmen army list has so many problems. I am hopeful the developers revise it in the near future
I cannot agree with Suggestion number 5 for the following reason: some armies rely more upon the combination of different save types than others. For example, the dwarves have good armor saves and no access to regen, they would be not affected at all by this change. Meanwhile tomb kings have mediocre armor saves, mediocre ward saves and 5+ regen at most. It is the combination of the three saves that give their infantry or cabalry some resiliance. If you remove this, you end up with blocks of skelentons being hit and wounded at 2+, so the whole block easily dies in one turn. By trying to prevent the abuse of monsters and mounter characters with many saves, you are nerfing the actual army-like troops.
Yeah , maybe ? I dont think infantry blocks have ward saves , the whole Tomb KIng army has regen , 6+ or 5+ for some characters? I think the Dragon with 5+ regen and the armour of ages with the ability to heal the dragon from the priests is still pretty good ?
Coven Throne is SOOOOO shite. I always take one or a Cack Coach just to purify my soul
I have the throne ready to , I will have to try it.🫣
@CreakyGamers it actually did well in my last game, but only because it got 3 charges through the course of the game.
no swiftstride and bound spell lvl2 for something which wants to be in dispel range is the issue (and the crazy cost).
vanhels can help the charge movements range at least
Fun model though!
Good job ! Yeah it looks OK on paper , but the cost is what kills it for me , it's a lot of points and needs support to get it there and keep it going.
Nice video, I agree with most points. Regarding rules 2 and 5, I would emit some concerns.
2: with this plus close order only for infantry, a dragon could easily lose to a squad of 5-10 men if it wipes its attacks which seems a bit harsh to me
5: a little biased on that, but playing Ogres and TK it would be really rough, considering they have really low armor values. I would modify this rule to "only 2 saves", making you picking 2 saves between armor, ward and regen
Agree about saves. Pick the best two from the three available.
A dragon could lose to infantry front on , but they are so manoeuvrable they should be looking to hit flanks etc.
Infantry can step up and fight when first line gets wiped out
Not sure I like this, as it messes with the initiative characteristic, like in 8th, which brought about responses like High Elves ASF and reroll misses if they would strike first anyway, and the need for massive magic spells to counter the big blocks of infantry that were inspired by other such changes that tried to address first lines being wiped out.
Absolutely not, step up should never come back as a rule. It should stay in 8th ed (the fantasy killer)
It's an interesting one, and shows the split between players who prefer 6th vs 8th (generally anyway).
My issue with it is that it increases lethality. More attacks mean more removal, and this leads to bigger units. It also slows the game down as there are more dice to roll. It also devalues the charge and initiative characteristic.
Having said that, no steadfast in play would help!
Also, it gives infantry something to do. Which is an important consideration.
I though making it a universal special rule for elite infantry. Most of the other suggestions help tar pits and high volume units, but not the most elite. Having it as a special rule on things like chosen, pheonix guard, great swords, etc. Where they step up fighting to the front, but take a - 1 to hit (or something) could be fun!
It would allow them to attack, but cav etc really shouldn't be charging them in the front.....
I also like the idea of giving defensive infantry some mechanics, like spears giving an impact hit when charged by cav or behemoths