Small update. It still works! Some claimed to have better or safer options but don't show it. They don't have that second anchor point. Some say the maximum side way force is on the carabiner. I guess since then they actually had a look at a carabiner, googled it or ask somebody who does know about carabiners and they are all quiet now because they are wrong! No carabiner has the maximum side ways load on them. But if you are afraid to use a carabiner than don't use a carabiner. You can still use the technique. I prefer to use the carabiners because pulling the rope down without them would mean rope on rope friction. Thanks for all the support I got from many of you. Cheers!
Yeah so you are clearly not looking at a weight rated carabiners. All of them have 2 ratings 1) along the vertical access 2) cross loaded or gate open. Usually they run 20 kn long access and 7 kn gate open or cross loaded it's the same number. Are you ever likely to generate 7kn no but why would you cross load and risk it. As for pulling the rope down you do realize any reasonable climbing rope has a protective outer sheath on it and this is how climbers do it all day every day. Ps. this also versus risking damage to your carabiner banging it around (climbing carabiners shouldn't be dropped on to rock more than 2-3min height) or more likely it gets stuck in a crack or snagged on a tree branch and you can't get the rope down. Getting snagged is why most of the time climbers avoid the carabiner and just pull the rope with "friction" as you put it.
@@telestix6606 Does your solution include a second anchor point? Actually a normal climbing carabiner has 3 ratings on them since gate open and cross loaded isn't always the same. Very often not actually. The rope snagging is sometimes a risk but in most cases can be avoided. Obviously in this video they (I) did not use climbing grade carabiners or climbing grade line as they (I) explained it's just for demonstration showing a technique. It also says in the video this is for experienced people aka the instructor only. So my advice to you is don't try it but get training first.
@@StevanOutdoor I looked at quite a few of my biners (I have a bucket full of them) and I went with 2 ratings instead of three because only about half have all three ratings. re: ropes you use, yes I got that. Just like you didn't use locking biners for your demonstrations. Though you should (in my opinion) have used a separate tag line tied to the biner to demonstrate the cleaning simply for clarity As for snagging, not sure how often you pull a rope but as I get about 30 days of climbing a year and pull the rope maybe a dozen times a day getting your rope snagged just once is problematic. Especially since you are just rapping. That is you rap to a ledge pull the rope but it gets stuck 30ft up. Now you are on a ledge and can't go up and can't go down. As for second anchor point no but in my 30 years of climbing there was only one anchor that shifted a bit. Otherwise I have rappelled off of everything from a small trees, to bolts, to column of ice the size of my fist, to a bollard (a pile of snow). I do back up my anchors for the first rappeller but then the second rappeller takes the backup, heaviest guy usually goes first. As for training I can teach you any aspect of climbing you want rock, ice or mountaineering you want except advance rescue. So no worries on my end I just think your "advanced" system is making problems for people that they won't see coming.
@@telestix6606 The system is for instructors aka last man rappelling as is mentioned in the video and title. It is designed to have this second anchor point and still get all your gear down as last man (instructor). I have a lot of carabiners also and they all have 3 ratings. The load for open gate vs cross load is sometimes the same but most often not. Of course the materials used are for demonstration only. For this system I use locking steel carabiners in real life. If your primary anchor point is very strong you don't need this system. You can just put your rappel line around it and rappel using double rope. That way you reduce the chance of the rope snagging but a snagging rope is often human error. But if you don't like it, don't try and don't use it. But it seems like you did not come up with a solution for this 2nd anchor point for the last man rappelling.
@@StevanOutdoor I didn't come up with a second anchor point for the last man however as I stated in 30 years of climbing and literally thousands of rappels have never needed it. Good luck and as I have said to many climbers you do what makes you happy.
Maan this is the info i have been lookin for, for years dude :) there are many “rope-retrieving” videos on youtube but almost all of them are double line, but this technieque will allow one to get use of the full lenght of the rope :) then just attach a paracord or bankline to the “pulling-end” and that should be it :)
Fantastic video, one small adjustment you might like, instead of tying a knot in the rope to put the carabiner through, use a clove hitch. It will lock on the carabiner, but will be easier to undo when done.
+Ben Brown. Of course a clove hitch can be used and than attach one carabiner to the other. I prefer the 'alpine butterfly' I think it's called. It leaves room for two carabiners if needed.
Depending which knot you are referring to a clove hitch is prone to slipping when not under stress. So if you aren't careful and unload the clove hitch when standing a ledge then reload it you might get slippage.
That's a really great idea (backup 'biner block). Thanks for sharing. I don't like the idea of the 1 carabiner double block. Nylon against Dynema is not recommended as it saws through and dynema/spectra melts a very low temperature. Just bouncing on a rope can cause this sawing action.
With this technique if the first one fails you are screwed. The rope which you are repelling with is the first anchor. So if any part of it fails you are falling to the ground. Great idea but there is no need in a secondary. The only way that the first anchor could fail is if the rope is cut. Unless the carabiner is the part that breaks.
question about the first single rope rappel method. If you are using single rope rappel, because the rope is too short, you can you reach the other end (which should be at least 50m up high) to retrieve your rope? If your rope is long enough that both ends touch the ground, then wouldn't it be better to do double rope rappel?
thanks, I actually bought a tag line and have been rappelling 55m cliff ever since with only one 60m rope. I was really a beginner when I asked that question. Thanks for the reply :)
No. You have to have a tag line to pull your rope back down. That second rope can be a much thinner line since you are not climbing on it. You can use Paracord for this purpose
@@terranhealer be careful paracord may be too thin to easily pull. I climb on an 8.5 and the climbing shop recommend a 6mm tag line. Paracord would be closer to 3mm and hard on your hands.
It can also be used for that but it's basically for all situations where the last man (m/f) rappelling needs to bring all the stuff down because there is no going back to collect it. It's true that this way you can use almost the full length of the rappelling rope if you have another rope (does not have to be a climbing grade rope) to attach, but the video is more about the extra anchor point. That's the 'twitch'.
Thanks, was looking for a simple rope retrival idea. Instead of a caribiner I will get a solid round climbing ring. BTW if Stevan's Twitch exists you will have to change to 'Stevan's Twerk' and you and Miley Cyrus will have to do a youtube video together. I promise not to watch, ha. I'm adding this to my keeper videos. Cheers from Canada.
LOL. Miley Cyrus is some singer or artist right? Use what tools you think are best and try them before you go up so they don't snag. If it snags you will have to climb back up the rope on the right end and redo the installation. This technique works for me. Stay safe there in Canada. Cheers
In case the first anchor would fail, the second would be shock loaded and you would fall the entire distance of both your anchor lines before you stop. Perhaps that's why no one has invented it yet.
+Karl Fogel. A shock of a 20 cm drop maybe. A 20 cm drop over the length of a rappelling/climbing rope I would not call a shock. The materials sure can handle it and if the back up anchor doesn't you should have picked a different anchor. A 20 cm shock load during rappelling or climbing can always happen.
Grim Reaper I thought the same. The technique/knot he uses is called a Running Butterfly. I will tie and Alpine Butterfly in the middle of the rope, clip a krab into it, then holding both ends of the rope toss the krab in the knot over a branch for instance. The weight of the krab will bring the knot back to you on the ground. Then remove the krab if you wish and run one end of the rope through the Alpine Butterfly and keep pulling it until the knot reaches the branch. When you're done, you pull the other end of the rope like he demonstrated and you can retrieve your ropes! I'm still looking for something safer though, where you have two points of contact. If you know of something let me know.
+Ian L. Single anchor point. No back up whatsoever. Why is that safer as having a back up anchor point? And the 'Stevan's twitch' seems to be an original by me! Nobody else has claimed it yet or has even stated they have seen it before. Are you sure you are not just jealous???
+Matt MacLaird. You can control that fall by adding some thinner rope so you can slowly lower the climbing/rappelling rope with your carabiners and stuff and all that falls will be the thinner rope when the rest is on the ground already.
So, why use this technique when you can leave a $6 carabiner and some 6mm cord around a tree or anchor point? This technique is clever, but it seems to greatly increase the chance of a stuck rope unless you do it exactly right. I'd like to see this done in a real climbing scenario . . . oh wait, there are no Dutch mountains, never mind . . .
+johngo6283. True, there are no Dutch Mountains. That's why we travel. You should try that one time ;) There is a song called Dutch Mountains btw. I like the leave no trace principle and if you have to leave stuff behind on every rappel it also means you have to take the stuff with you in the first place. Now you can have a group rappelling the normal way and only as instructor you could use this technique. You basically don't have to bring extra stuff or leave anything behind.
This is awful technique and there are a number of reasons this would be a bad idea. Please don't show this stuff on youtube as an instructional video until you have a better grasp on these techniques and they have been thoroughly tested. Just as a starter: sideloading carabiners, shock loading anchors, and getting the lead rope stuck are the essential problems with your "improved technique". Just use the original technique and get your anchors right in the first place
+Ian L. One year waiting for your video or explanation on how it's done the 'correct' way (original technique) but nothing. So I think you don't have one. ;) It's better to 'shock load' the back up anchor than not having a back up anchor and you are talking about a 20 cm drop maybe. Of course it's better to not sideload any carabiner. The safest way is to not load a carabiner at all and stay on the ground. ;)
S##t man it is totally irresponsible to teach this technique and extremely dangerous to load a carrabiner sideways a very good friend of mine did the same and when the carrabiner broke he fell 45 feet and broke his back he will never walk again please don't use this it's not worth the risk do it right and play safe.
Please stop doing this! And stop telling people to teach this for christ sake! This is dangerous on many different levels. Putting force on a carabiner this way (sideways) it can only hold a fraction of its potential in KN. It`s even written on them. Why don´t you rappel like everybody else - you still get your gear.
There is never a mention of the sideways strenght on any carabiner. You don't trust it? That's fine. Don't use it. But the method is used in caving and canyoning for many many years. I just added the extra safety.
You have got to be kidding right? Every single carabiner shows sideways strength. PER UIAA and CE standards there are 3 strengths given in the exact same order on EVERY carabiner regardless of manufacturer. 1rst is # this is for normal operation top to bottom. 2nd is arrow pointing up and arrow pointing down (can't show example with keyboard) and the third and final is an open gate in normal top/bottom positioning. In many cases with carabiners the open gate and sideways KN strength is almost identical. The fact that you did not know this really puts into question your knowledge as a "instructor"
Always wondered what happened to the rope after people get to the bottom and this gave a great explanation of that. Thanks for posting bruv
Lol same
Small update. It still works!
Some claimed to have better or safer options but don't show it. They don't have that second anchor point.
Some say the maximum side way force is on the carabiner. I guess since then they actually had a look at a carabiner, googled it or ask somebody who does know about carabiners and they are all quiet now because they are wrong! No carabiner has the maximum side ways load on them.
But if you are afraid to use a carabiner than don't use a carabiner. You can still use the technique. I prefer to use the carabiners because pulling the rope down without them would mean rope on rope friction.
Thanks for all the support I got from many of you. Cheers!
Yeah so you are clearly not looking at a weight rated carabiners. All of them have 2 ratings 1) along the vertical access 2) cross loaded or gate open. Usually they run 20 kn long access and 7 kn gate open or cross loaded it's the same number. Are you ever likely to generate 7kn no but why would you cross load and risk it.
As for pulling the rope down you do realize any reasonable climbing rope has a protective outer sheath on it and this is how climbers do it all day every day. Ps. this also versus risking damage to your carabiner banging it around (climbing carabiners shouldn't be dropped on to rock more than 2-3min height) or more likely it gets stuck in a crack or snagged on a tree branch and you can't get the rope down. Getting snagged is why most of the time climbers avoid the carabiner and just pull the rope with "friction" as you put it.
@@telestix6606 Does your solution include a second anchor point? Actually a normal climbing carabiner has 3 ratings on them since gate open and cross loaded isn't always the same. Very often not actually. The rope snagging is sometimes a risk but in most cases can be avoided. Obviously in this video they (I) did not use climbing grade carabiners or climbing grade line as they (I) explained it's just for demonstration showing a technique. It also says in the video this is for experienced people aka the instructor only. So my advice to you is don't try it but get training first.
@@StevanOutdoor I looked at quite a few of my biners (I have a bucket full of them) and I went with 2 ratings instead of three because only about half have all three ratings. re: ropes you use, yes I got that. Just like you didn't use locking biners for your demonstrations. Though you should (in my opinion) have used a separate tag line tied to the biner to demonstrate the cleaning simply for clarity
As for snagging, not sure how often you pull a rope but as I get about 30 days of climbing a year and pull the rope maybe a dozen times a day getting your rope snagged just once is problematic. Especially since you are just rapping. That is you rap to a ledge pull the rope but it gets stuck 30ft up. Now you are on a ledge and can't go up and can't go down.
As for second anchor point no but in my 30 years of climbing there was only one anchor that shifted a bit. Otherwise I have rappelled off of everything from a small trees, to bolts, to column of ice the size of my fist, to a bollard (a pile of snow). I do back up my anchors for the first rappeller but then the second rappeller takes the backup, heaviest guy usually goes first.
As for training I can teach you any aspect of climbing you want rock, ice or mountaineering you want except advance rescue. So no worries on my end I just think your "advanced" system is making problems for people that they won't see coming.
@@telestix6606 The system is for instructors aka last man rappelling as is mentioned in the video and title. It is designed to have this second anchor point and still get all your gear down as last man (instructor).
I have a lot of carabiners also and they all have 3 ratings. The load for open gate vs cross load is sometimes the same but most often not. Of course the materials used are for demonstration only. For this system I use locking steel carabiners in real life.
If your primary anchor point is very strong you don't need this system. You can just put your rappel line around it and rappel using double rope. That way you reduce the chance of the rope snagging but a snagging rope is often human error.
But if you don't like it, don't try and don't use it. But it seems like you did not come up with a solution for this 2nd anchor point for the last man rappelling.
@@StevanOutdoor I didn't come up with a second anchor point for the last man however as I stated in 30 years of climbing and literally thousands of rappels have never needed it.
Good luck and as I have said to many climbers you do what makes you happy.
Maan this is the info i have been lookin for, for years dude :) there are many “rope-retrieving” videos on youtube but almost all of them are double line, but this technieque will allow one to get use of the full lenght of the rope :) then just attach a paracord or bankline to the “pulling-end” and that should be it :)
I will be using this and teaching this. I hope one day Steven's twitch is a well known common practice.
Fantastic video, one small adjustment you might like, instead of tying a knot in the rope to put the carabiner through, use a clove hitch. It will lock on the carabiner, but will be easier to undo when done.
+Ben Brown. Of course a clove hitch can be used and than attach one carabiner to the other. I prefer the 'alpine butterfly' I think it's called. It leaves room for two carabiners if needed.
Depending which knot you are referring to a clove hitch is prone to slipping when not under stress. So if you aren't careful and unload the clove hitch when standing a ledge then reload it you might get slippage.
That's a really great idea (backup 'biner block). Thanks for sharing. I don't like the idea of the 1 carabiner double block. Nylon against Dynema is not recommended as it saws through and dynema/spectra melts a very low temperature. Just bouncing on a rope can cause this sawing action.
Fantastic instructional video. Thank you for sharing!!
With this technique if the first one fails you are screwed. The rope which you are repelling with is the first anchor. So if any part of it fails you are falling to the ground. Great idea but there is no need in a secondary. The only way that the first anchor could fail is if the rope is cut. Unless the carabiner is the part that breaks.
question about the first single rope rappel method.
If you are using single rope rappel, because the rope is too short, you can you reach the other end (which should be at least 50m up high) to retrieve your rope?
If your rope is long enough that both ends touch the ground, then wouldn't it be better to do double rope rappel?
You can tie another thinner rope for retrieving it (even paracord0, so you can almost use the entire lenghts of the rope for rappell
thanks, I actually bought a tag line and have been rappelling 55m cliff ever since with only one 60m rope. I was really a beginner when I asked that question. Thanks for the reply :)
No. You have to have a tag line to pull your rope back down. That second rope can be a much thinner line since you are not climbing on it. You can use Paracord for this purpose
@@terranhealer be careful paracord may be too thin to easily pull. I climb on an 8.5 and the climbing shop recommend a 6mm tag line. Paracord would be closer to 3mm and hard on your hands.
this method is, of course, intended to be used in an emergency self rescue situation for example in case of ropes too short to reach the ground.
It can also be used for that but it's basically for all situations where the last man (m/f) rappelling needs to bring all the stuff down because there is no going back to collect it. It's true that this way you can use almost the full length of the rappelling rope if you have another rope (does not have to be a climbing grade rope) to attach, but the video is more about the extra anchor point. That's the 'twitch'.
Fantastic!
Thank you for posting
It is a very useful knowledge to know. I have seen another way, but yours is better. Thanks.
Great tutorial mate
Just what I was wanting to know. Thanks
Thanks, was looking for a simple rope retrival idea.
Instead of a caribiner I will get a solid round climbing ring.
BTW if Stevan's Twitch exists you will have to change to 'Stevan's Twerk' and you and Miley Cyrus will have to do a youtube video together. I promise not to watch, ha.
I'm adding this to my keeper videos. Cheers from Canada.
LOL. Miley Cyrus is some singer or artist right?
Use what tools you think are best and try them before you go up so they don't snag. If it snags you will have to climb back up the rope on the right end and redo the installation.
This technique works for me. Stay safe there in Canada. Cheers
In case the first anchor would fail, the second would be shock loaded and you would fall the entire distance of both your anchor lines before you stop. Perhaps that's why no one has invented it yet.
+Karl Fogel. A shock of a 20 cm drop maybe. A 20 cm drop over the length of a rappelling/climbing rope I would not call a shock. The materials sure can handle it and if the back up anchor doesn't you should have picked a different anchor. A 20 cm shock load during rappelling or climbing can always happen.
Thanks for sharing very informative!!
thanks for sharing
hello from iraq with you well done
very interesting. thank you
Very good. Thank you.
is that a butterfly knot?
Grim Reaper I thought the same. The technique/knot he uses is called a Running Butterfly. I will tie and Alpine Butterfly in the middle of the rope, clip a krab into it, then holding both ends of the rope toss the krab in the knot over a branch for instance. The weight of the krab will bring the knot back to you on the ground. Then remove the krab if you wish and run one end of the rope through the Alpine Butterfly and keep pulling it until the knot reaches the branch. When you're done, you pull the other end of the rope like he demonstrated and you can retrieve your ropes! I'm still looking for something safer though, where you have two points of contact. If you know of something let me know.
+Grim Reaper. Alpine butterfly knot indeed. It does not effect the strength of the rope as much as a figure 8 for instance.
wow man, thank you !!!!!!! O_O
there is a lot easier and safer methods to do a rappel on a single rope.
And what are those methods? Maybe you can tell us.
He just won't show it.
its the original method you show, before you added your "original" junk to it
+Ian L. Single anchor point. No back up whatsoever. Why is that safer as having a back up anchor point?
And the 'Stevan's twitch' seems to be an original by me! Nobody else has claimed it yet or has even stated they have seen it before. Are you sure you are not just jealous???
So all this gear will freefall down hitting who knows what on the way down. Now it is trash. This is a horrible practice.
+Matt MacLaird. You can control that fall by adding some thinner rope so you can slowly lower the climbing/rappelling rope with your carabiners and stuff and all that falls will be the thinner rope when the rest is on the ground already.
So, why use this technique when you can leave a $6 carabiner and some 6mm cord around a tree or anchor point? This technique is clever, but it seems to greatly increase the chance of a stuck rope unless you do it exactly right. I'd like to see this done in a real climbing scenario . . . oh wait, there are no Dutch mountains, never mind . . .
+johngo6283. True, there are no Dutch Mountains. That's why we travel. You should try that one time ;) There is a song called Dutch Mountains btw.
I like the leave no trace principle and if you have to leave stuff behind on every rappel it also means you have to take the stuff with you in the first place.
Now you can have a group rappelling the normal way and only as instructor you could use this technique. You basically don't have to bring extra stuff or leave anything behind.
This is awful technique and there are a number of reasons this would be a bad idea. Please don't show this stuff on youtube as an instructional video until you have a better grasp on these techniques and they have been thoroughly tested. Just as a starter: sideloading carabiners, shock loading anchors, and getting the lead rope stuck are the essential problems with your "improved technique". Just use the original technique and get your anchors right in the first place
+Ian L. One year waiting for your video or explanation on how it's done the 'correct' way (original technique) but nothing. So I think you don't have one. ;)
It's better to 'shock load' the back up anchor than not having a back up anchor and you are talking about a 20 cm drop maybe.
Of course it's better to not sideload any carabiner. The safest way is to not load a carabiner at all and stay on the ground. ;)
U make shirt vids
S##t man it is totally irresponsible to teach this technique and extremely dangerous to load a carrabiner sideways a very good friend of mine did the same and when the carrabiner broke he fell 45 feet and broke his back he will never walk again please don't use this it's not worth the risk do it right and play safe.
Please stop doing this! And stop telling people to teach this for christ sake! This is dangerous on many different levels. Putting force on a carabiner this way (sideways) it can only hold a fraction of its potential in KN. It`s even written on them. Why don´t you rappel like everybody else - you still get your gear.
You forget to tell us how everybody else is doing it. ;)
There is never a mention of the sideways strenght on any carabiner. You don't trust it? That's fine. Don't use it. But the method is used in caving and canyoning for many many years. I just added the extra safety.
Using double rope on a single anchor point
You have got to be kidding right? Every single carabiner shows sideways strength. PER UIAA and CE standards there are 3 strengths given in the exact same order on EVERY carabiner regardless of manufacturer. 1rst is # this is for normal operation top to bottom. 2nd is arrow pointing up and arrow pointing down (can't show example with keyboard) and the third and final is an open gate in normal top/bottom positioning. In many cases with carabiners the open gate and sideways KN strength is almost identical. The fact that you did not know this really puts into question your knowledge as a "instructor"
Robert