Griffith's Feelings Towards Guts: Platonic or Romantic?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ต.ค. 2016
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Music used:
Song 1 - Snape & The Unbreakable Vow (Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince)
Song 2 - Thorn In You (Fire Emblem: Fates)
Song 3 - Painful (Fate/Zero) - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
I wrote this video six years ago when I was more dumb than I am now. Griffith had/has homosexual feelings for Guts. I essentially say in this video that Griffith doesn't have the self-comprehension to identify his feelings, and that's still true, but if he were to identify his feelings towards Guts, they would be romantic af.
Glad you gave an update regarding that. I’m a gay/bi guy myself and it has really bothered me how a lot of fans of Berserk seem to go out of their way to argue against the idea that Griffith has romantic or sexual feelings for Guts. Obviously it’s not just straight up homophobia, but I think it’s just something that doesn’t really cross the minds of straight people? I think a lot of them are like “Oh well if he was gay, why didn’t he have sex with Guts?” and it’s a fair question but they’re missing a lot of other details.
I bet it’s also the fact that Griffith, when given the chance, has sex with women more often in the series. So that probably would lead people to believe that he at least prefers them.
However, things like Griffith prostituting himself (rather than one of his loyal soldiers who would have gladly done it hmmmm) for military funding, thinking of Guts while fucking the princess, and claiming that he would have given up all his dreams FOR GUTS leads me to believe he loves/loved him both romantically and sexually.
I think you do have a point about him not being able to process those feelings. That was actually true for a lot of gay/bi people in antiquity who had feelings like this but didn’t go about pursuing them because it was simply not something people talked about or accepted.
@@hatenation4064 He didnt think Off Guts while doing the princess though
@@huhs112 yeah he did LOL
@@hatenation4064 did you read the same manga my guy
@@huhs112 Evidently you haven’t. Re-read Beginning of the Endless Night. Pages 8-9 in particular. It’s Chapter 38 of volume 9 if you aren’t familiar with the name.
“Guts x Griffith”
“Guts vs. Griffith”
There are two kinds of people on this earth
I'm both
VS >>>>>>>>> X Giffith is a snake 🐍
@@darrior4587 Disgusting
@@Skskzkalxm Just kiddin lmao
I feel like it’d be two tops fighting it out.
Judeau: “Hey Griffith, I dare you to kiss the prettiest member of the Band of the Hawk.”
Griffith: “Casca?”
Casca: “Yes...Griffith?”
Griffith: “Move, I need to get to Guts.”
Golden Age in a nutshell
XD
Dont left donovan alone , he obviously want some too 😊
@𝓢𝓾𝓰𝓲𝓶𝓸𝓽𝓸 lmfaooo
Delusional
Griffith is the type of dude to max out his charisma before all the other stats.
Cosmic Turban i think i did that on persona 5 lol
He would absolutely destroy fallout new Vegas
I regularly do that on Fallout
Griffith is the type of dude to max out his intelligence while being a melee build
@I'm done Tfw you realize that a DEX fighter can make a decent rogue while also attacking a gazillion times per round and wearing heavy armor.
When Casca was having her period so she fell off the cliff with Guts and Guts brought her to a cave, Casca says something that makes me believe it's a romantic love. Here are the exact lines:
*Discussing when Guts entered into the picture*
"But... Even so...I tried to convince myself that Griffith wanted you...Just for your strength. But *Griffith* , so calm and composed... always gets impulsive when it comes to you!!! *It's as if...* ... *As if...* ..."
Everyone knows Casca is in love with Griffith. She knows the signs of love. When she says "as if", I can very easily see her line of thought continuing with her saying "It's as if he's in love with you"...
Lines like this are interesting for sure but far from conclusive. It's completely understandable that Casca would think that way even if he wasn't in love with Guts.
I see what you mean. Projection can also be a strong possibility. Damn Miura, why you so good, tho?
Casca is in love with guts now
There's more then one way to love someone though. Even if she did out rightly say "as if he's in love with you" That could still be taken as a platonic, sibling/ family love or as a romantic relationship love.
I do believe that Guts and Griffith loved each other but it was something strong and complex and wasn't simply romantic or platonic. Both of them grew up knowing hardship and both didn't really know what it was like to have someone to trust or rely on.
I think that's right, but doesn't necessarily specify what kind of love. However, I think that we're simplifying the "romantic" love too much. When you love someone, specially when you have a very deep emotional connection, you love them in very different aspects at the same time. Having a partner sometimes is like having a family member, a friend and a lover. Ideally, it should be someone that fits these depictions all at once. From my point of view, Griffith ends up loving Guts in all these forms, therefore his excessive dependence on him. But he wasn't emotionally mature enough to recognize or understand, since he has to detach himself from these strong connections in order to fulfill his dream. Also, I think that there are some minor details that appear in the manga that lead me to conclude this. When they rescue him and gets a hint of Guts and Kasca's newfound relationship, I felt like his reaction conveyed not only jealousy, but also a hint of sadness. When he is held captive too, we get to know from him that the only thing that allows him to stay somewhat sane is the thought or memory of Guts. Griffith even states that at first, he thought that Guts was the one under but with time, he found himself being the one that was overpowered by Guts, who even made him forget his dream. I think that is an important point. Guts made Griffith forget and give up his dream, which was the thing above all in Griffith's life. So, like I said, I'd say Griffith loves Guts deeply and in every aspect, family, friendship and romance, but due to his lack of emotional intelligence ends up developing in an obsession. (Just an interesting comment in the manga, in the water fight, when Guts enters and sees Griffith, he blushes. Keep in mind that Guts has been in these kind of camps his whole life and probably has seen tons of naked guys bathing. He didn't blush even in his sex scene with Kasca. Why would he do something like that in the situation with Griffith?)
Griffith: it was just a prank bro
Alatis Angelvs people don't die in pranks...
Mohammed Ali *PRANK GONE WRONG*
then turned into a *PRANK GONE SEXUAL*
Alatis Angelvs it's just a social experiment!
Oh man, Guts and Zodd. The true OTP.
No matter what way you look at it, Griffith loved Guts.
And THIS is why authors should show, not tell, more often. Look at all this discussion and amazing videos that grow from this story.
xcaluhbration exactly
What about the in the beginning when he touches him by his cheeks (not ass cheeks XD ) and says "now you belong to me?" There was too much touching going on there. And I don't think that we can turn a blind eye on that claiming that Griffiith is socially awkard or unaware since it's the this very social charisma that has given him that amount of power (and let's not talk about how he knows to be sexual to achieve results- this proves that it was a conscious moment of intimacy, too much of it, even more so if you take into account that at that moment, he didn't even know him, it was simply primitive instinct).
Show don't tell that.... ppl be gay?
Idk what kinda stuff you been watching but rarely do I see characters just announce it
Well put good sir
Ye
Griffith had a dream. A dream and goal he focused on so intensely that he lost his emotions and ability to connect with others inside of it. He didn't find people very interesting because he could figure them out quickly. He couldn't do that with Guts. He became enamored with Guts. Guts brought out all his human emotions and interests again. I think Griffith loved Guts as deeply as he was capable of. Griffith thought he could come up with an answer for everything, and Guts was his enigma. Guts made him human.
Geordan Rowley i
Griffith: call me Marge Simpson
because i love my homie
that's beautiful :')
I’m literally crying,, rip Kentaro.
wow it sounds beautiful
who wouldn't be gay for Guts? lets be real lmoa
I'd rather go gay for Griffith, though.
G AY,, I AGREE
Who wouldnt want to enter him or for him to enter them. that guy is manifestation of beuty, gender and sexual orientations dont matter at all when its about him.
Read Berserk prototype chapter. Easiest way to get errection.
Ergosphere wat kind of gay bullshit are tryna whip out of your unclean ass and trying to normalise to us straight people!??!?
Griffith's nudity in the presence of Guts is a representation of the trust that Griffith has towards Guts. This event also serves to seed the process of fortifying any feelings of faith that Guts has towards Griffith.
Notice that Griffith tosses Guts the egg of the king. It's a small detail. Yet only when the necklace is no longer in his possession is Griffith completely naked.
"I am here, naked and unarmed. Why don't you strike me with your sword and win back your freedom?"
Pius Nyakoojo sooo true!
Oh he wanted to get struck with guts’ sword alright
He wasnt completely trusting of guts or showing his vulnerability in that scene tho. He still lies about the reason he saved guts in the previous battle
He’s also been naked in front of Casca, the scenes have different contexts tho so yea that’s still true
Excerpt 2: Berserk Official Guidebook Interview (2017)
Interviewer: You knew from the start how it was going to end.
Miura: I knew the Eclipse was coming, so there truly was nowhere to run! Also, there's a reason I made the Golden Age arc as long as it was. I felt dissatisfied with the so-called flashback scenes in a number of works. It's typical to stick flashbacks in just as a short break in order to maintain the pace of a story, but I wanted to potently feel, from the bottom of my heart, the reason for Guts' revenge and the basis of his character development. If the flashback lasts only a short time, it runs the risk of merely amounting to information. Since I'm the one drawing it, I need to make it more of a story you can invest in emotionally... and that's how it ended up being sooo long [laugh].
Interviewer: But it's because this happened that Guts' anger comes through sufficiently.
Miura: I had to make something that readers would accept was enough to make anybody angry. Because of that, it came down to how dramatically and naturally I could depict Guts fully forming his precious bonds with people. For the relationship between Guts and Griffith, I'm using myself and my close friend and fellow manga artist Koji Mori (Suicide Island, etc.) as a model. Which one of us is Guts and which is Griffith switches from time to time, but I think it serves as a symbol of male friendship.
Interviewer: You put so much emotion into those characters, and when the Eclipse happens, they're all gone. That must have left some scars on you as the artist.
Miura: I was emotionally invested in each character, so I felt more depressed than scarred. And the story went way down in popularity with the readers around the time of the Eclipse [laugh]. Many readers were furious that I'd do such a thing to the characters they liked. My editor at the time was concerned but also of the opinion that we'd just have to follow it through to the end. The point I had to pay attention to was making sure the flow of the story wasn't completely severed with the Eclipse. That's why I spared Casca. If she had died and the serialization had continued for a long time, I feared the reason for revenge would become something of the past; and if Guts were to establish new relationships, then his incentive would waver. It may seem calculating and unpleasant, but it's because Casca's by his side that he can never forget the Eclipse.
"Gay or European, the answer could take weeks..."
Both
I love the idea that Griffith never pondered his emotions enough for the viewer to conclude one way or another. There doesn't seem to be enough evidence for either conclusion. My opinion went to both sides of the spectrum throughout the series. The one thing I feel strongly is that if Griffith had ANY romantic feelings (if you believe that's even possible for the character), Guts would be the only character in the story for which Griffith could feel them.
His covering his weakness , its normal for human being do that , he just does it better than everyone , even if its killing him inside , he would still do it
These yaoi fangirls seee gay in everything
I think the best argument you made was that Griffith himselfe doesn't fully comprhend his feelings for Guts. Which also would explain the ambiguity of his feelings in the story.
Griffith only sees people as something to be usedto further his own dream and at first Guts is just another soldier for him. Another person to control. However over time he starts depending on Guts and starts loving him. Which is a completly new sitiuation for him. I think you are right that he never fully tries to confront these feelings. He tries to deny them and keep Guts trapped in the power dynamyc that th is comfortable in.
His incapability to face his true feelings for Guts are the Reason for his downfall.
It's not really important whether Griffith's feelings were romantic or platonic. The fact that he had feelings towards Guts in the first place was too much for him.
Exactly right mate. The feelings themselves, and not any characteristics associated with them, were the significant part. Their simple presence was too much for Griffith, so of course he never dwelt on them.
Aleczandxr One thing we do know, that over one person Griffith turned into a simp, and thought with his lizard brain. Any man blindly chasing a woman will not think straight. (And lose money.) As the video said, Guts had emotional power over Griffith.
And the fucked up thing is that power was unintentional from Guts. Guts was always oblivious to Griffith's possessiveness, which is probably whats fueled Griffith's vacillation over friend or lover status. So in effect, Griffith didn't know which way to swing, which obliterates that "layered mind" of his!
benderB9 Griffith finesse every member of the hawk. They were simply all his bitches. He allowed them all to foolishly believe he cared for them. Griffith wanted to fuck Guts but Guts didn't respond accordingly when Griffith tried him. No doubt Griffith will lay with an old hairy ass man like a bitch or kill anyone to become King of fuckery. But apparently people seem to enjoy following others who lie to them, think they care about cause or well being like a politician.
Guts wasn't going for Griffiths sexual advances or naked lure
Brandon McDowell Ha ha, Griffith the modern-day Trump? Well Griffith was never so crass.
I think (more like a brother) Gutz became part of his dream. As someone he admires to be beside him, so he became in his dream irreplaceble (unlike the rest of his soldiers)
Rest In Peace, Kentaro Miura. An absolute legend whose storytelling transcends and will continue to transcend forever. It’s impossible to put into words how much he touched my life with Berserk and that is also true with countless others around the world. Thank you❤️
I think BECAUSE Griffith's feelings towards Gutz are so unique that love could be the ONLY way to define them. You say it's not romantic, physical or platonic, I think it's all of those.
Griffith said it himself - True Friend - unfortunately noone was equal to Griffith (except Guts)
During Eclipse - Griffith needed to sacrifice his own true friend, becasue like he said ,,True friend is someone with their own dream, even if that means opposing me"
I believe it’s a mix of everything. Griffith sees Guts as his own property, his one true friend, and the person he loves the most. It’s not a healthy, usual way of course. Griffith simply wants Guts to value him as the most important, and to stay aside forever. And that’s why it ultimately shattered him when he realized Guts and Casca had started to value each others as soul mates.
I think Guts is the only person that Griffith can hate so much. But also the one he can forgive the easiest. When Guts came to rescue him in the torture tower, Griffith’s eyes were full of hatred, but when he saw how sad, worrying, and regretting Guts was, I think he forgave him instantly. He compromised at that moment. But then, when he felt he was betrayed later again, he was broken. And that’s why he decided to abandon the last humanity he had.
Basically, Griffith and Guts needed to communicate more, which they are both so bad at it.
THIS! Your last sentence......All of it, I agree with ALL OF IT!
These two idiots just needed to talk!
Sit the fuck down for 10 fucking minutes and TALK and none of this mess would have happened, I've rarely felt the need to slap a fictional character so bad!
True af
The answer, by the way, is "Yes".
Just Some Guy with a Mustache hello....it's me
BLACK SUPER SAIYAN I was wondering if after all these years you'd like to meet...
I .... Found you .... again...?
Yes.
You are everywhere.
I agree that Griffith's feelings are impossible to define in the traditional sense, because Griffith is a singular individual.
I think of Griffith as asexual. He never engages in a sexual relationship without an ulterior motive. Let's not forget that were it not for his relationship with Guts, Griffith would be totally devoid of any intimacy whatsoever. The only thing that exists to even suggest he's capable of desire in the traditional sense is the suggestive manner in which he relates to Guts.
The incidents with Charlotte and Casca may come to mind, but remember that he only made those decisions because of his relationship with Guts. I think they were more about power and control, or perhaps even acceptance, than desire.
There is no point in the story in which Griffith shows overt sexual desire, and considering the strange way that he contextualizes his other relationships, I'm not inclined to explain his fixation on Guts in traditional terms.
Griffiths internal monologue before Guts' departure is possessive. He wants Guts to be "His"; and I don't think that he meant that in sexual or romantic way. Griffith and Guts never even come CLOSE to actually having a sexual relationship, but Griffith doesn't act like a jealous or unrequited lover; it's never suggested that he is dissatisfied with the state of his relationship to Guts during the latter's service in The Band of the Hawke.
Griffith does not behave like he's repressing his sexuality, he acts like he doesn't have ANY human desires whatsoever; his only coherent emotional need is ambition.
Moreover, I think the reason the nature of Griffith's feelings towards Guts appear so vague is not because they are complex, but rather because they are... primitive; so simple that they do not resemble the emotions of a mature adult. NONE of Griffith's emotional connections have ever even come close to rivaling the strength of his will to power. He doesn't have anything to compare his feelings for Guts to; he doesn't understand them or have the words to explain them. Less of a friendship or romance, more like a connection between a parent and a newborn baby.
Imagine what would happen if a divine, angelic entity devoid of humanity suddenly found themselves overcome by human emotion; they would have no idea how to contextualize or interpret those feelings.
Isaac Taylor your interpretation is honestly my favorite of Griffith's emotions towards Guts. During the first anime, some of his depictions were extremely childlike, like a spoiled brat. It truly shows how much his vision of the world is simple and unique, in a twisted, corrupted way.
Especially in the manga, near the beginning of the Golden Age arc when we're introduced to him, Griffith DOES look very youthful and makes some childlike expressions (in contrast to his creepier, more devious ones), and when he meets Guts, he almost regards him like a toy (one of the reasons Guts is initially irritated by him and even embarrassed), by saying the kind of things you wouldn't normally say to a complete stranger (e.g. "I want you", "I've taken a liking to you", "Now you belong to me").
And even his rather simple yet admirable dream itself - owning a kingdom (despite being a common street child) - was initially just child fantasy. He didn't seem to realise that his subordinates needed to die for him to reach that castle in the distance until he saw that dead 10-year-old boy, and he continues to deny responsibility for their deaths, as well as denying his own emotions, as we saw when he's clawing at his own skin after sleeping with Gennon and only stops doing so after Casca hugs him - at which point, he turns round and says "I'm alright".
He tried SO hard to NOT be a human - to continue being seen as this angelic hero figure, until eventually, he DOES become an angel through his sacrifice to the God Hand and just becomes his ambition incarnate. He doesn't have to fake it anymore, because he's fuelled solely by supernatural charisma, his dream, and servitude to cauasality.
Isaac Taylor This is a fucking great analysis, you should consider making a video or writing on this in further detail, I would absolutely adore you if you did :)
I've only just now realized that this comment existed. Needless to say, you're absolute spot on and I agree wholeheartedly. Amazingly well said.
I think this hits the point exactly. Especially the point about Griffith's emotions not being complex but primitive. It's always come off to me that Griffith, despite all his 'maturity' and intelligence seems very childish. Take the scene where he's rendered back to his boy self and shown his dream castle with blood on his hands. To me this symbolizes that really, at that point when boy Griffith made that ambition his life's goal he became... stuck. At least emotionally. As a mother of a five year old I can tell you that there is a LOT of "THAT"S MINE" and "You're Mine" etc etc etc and now that I'm going back over Beserk I see so many similarities to Griffith's outlook as to that of a child. That extreme self-centeredness and possessiveness. Anyone been around a child who's just learning to share? Holy how, it's like you just destroyed their world view when they learn to share their toys with other kids. Kinda like how Griffith had his break when Guts left.
I love how, when we really are first introduced to the pair that it comes off as Griffith is more mature and Guts is very childish, yet in the end It's Griffith who's the childish one and Guts is the one who's really grown and matured. I'm still getting caught up though.
Rule 34 seems to indicate yes
Jesus, i don't even want to explore that side of internet porn.
Rule 34???
What a grand and intoxicating innocence!
Griffith better be bottom
@@sensationsauvage3107
Rule 34 of the internet: If it exists, there also exists a porno of it.
The way you analyzed the night with Charlotte was spot on IMO. I admire how you keep putting out such quality content so consistently.
Thanks pal, always great hearing from you. I've got a bit of a lull right now with regards to work so I'm trying to take advantage of it while I can!
except guts made him forget his dream
I think a lot of us can relate to dealing with loss by trying to fill the hole in your heart with something, anything. Even if it's shallow. Griffith is hit harder by the loss of Guts than he even knew he could be. Anything to occupy you so as not to think about what you have lost...
So we just Gon ignore how when Griffith was being tortured he said he felt ‘jealousy, affection, regret, HUNGER’ towards Guts???? HUNGERRRR????????
he make me hungry too 😋 like a beefy prime steak
Dayyyuuuuum
ayo???? I never knew he said that? ig that settles it
@@ink.9 yeah when he’s imprisoned it’s one of his meditations, honestly read it
@@maxwrld368 damn i think I'm gonna re-read this arc now, thanks for enlightening me lmaoo
Griffith: "I want you, Guts."
Griffith: "HAHAHA, It was only a joke....unless...?"
Like you said, Miura is incredibly vague with this part of the story and leaves it for nerds like us to analyze things, haha. But as always, you provided a great, well thought analysis and a creative way to think about the subject. Thanks again for another great video! :)
Glad you enjoyed man, Berserk gives plenty of food for thought!
I agree with what you said. Griffith himself didn't understand his own feelings. I believe they were romantic, but to someone that concept is completely alien to, it was simply confusing and overwhelming to him to even realize the significance of another person to him (at the degree that this particular individual was). I think as a pretty much asexual individual who had never known love, Griffith was a stranger to these feelings and would possibly never be able to realize what they mean.
When I ask myself "Does he love him like a brother?", it doesn't seem right. When I ask myself "Does he love him like a friend?", it doesn't seem right. When I ask myself if he loves him not necessarily as a lover, but as his significant other, a soul mate, a kindred spirit, then I think that he does. However, he is incapable of acting on or even realizing romantic feelings, so all he acknowledges is the need for him in his life and the emptiness, pain, hatred, love, and jealousy he feels as a result of losing him. I also feel that Casca is significant to him and he feels confusion about how he feels about her as a person, but when he raped her, it wasn't about her in his mind, but about Guts.
To me Griffith pretty much saw Guts as his ace card and his Valkyrie as he saw someone he wanted and admired and once his Valkyrie left his army he felt weak and hurt and felt Guts was the only thing making him stronger and more powerful leading to his own downfall
To me Griffith was asexual
This makes sense tbh
@@linksdeath123 i know your comment was long ago but in the purpose of the talk i'd like to say he showed he is not asexual at all. He just didnt realte to sex, but he was capable of sexual behaviour and that's not being asexual. Also the 2 times we see him behaving in a sexual manner on his volution are related to Guts... so... No.
Griffith is a master chess player and Guts was his Queen.
This comment. YES.
For me, I feel as though the
relationship between the pair edged closer to proximity of romantic,
but I admit I am biased. In my view, platonic relations garner more
of a standard friendship/familial nature to them while romantic
relationships tend to elicit more extreme responses because often
times two romantic partners will view each other not just in a light
that reflects companionship, but also possessiveness. If a close
friend or family member said they needed to leave to seek out their
own dreams, typically the response they receive might be temporary
anger or encouragement. It is more commonplace, however that should a
lover say they need to leave, it becomes more of a betrayal in the
eyes of the other.
Its not uncommon for a lover to be
possessive and view their partner as a possession belonging to them,
albeit unhealthy. I feel Griffith's immediate response after losing
to Guts was only a minor factor, however to all his actions he took
proceeding it. Overall, I view Griffith as a man that fell into a
spiraling despair after feeling all his control be stripped away from
him. He's a man that can't settle not having things go his way. He
meticulously plans everything to the last detail because of that
controlling and ambitious nature. What mattered most to him was his
dreams or so he thought before Guts found a way to sway his
convictions. There was never a time where Griffith looked at anyone
romantically, I would argue. Charlotte is only a means to an end in
his dream. Sex was a tool for forming alliances and obtaining
resources.
I feel for Griffith, he had never been confronted by romantic love before
and thusly did not recognize his deeper feelings for Guts. He didn't bother to analyze his emotionsfor him, but rather merely reacted upon them.
His intense feelings of betrayal turned his love into hatred and then jealousy as it seemed
Guts had done well for himself, even getting close to Casca. With my
bias I always felt it more likely an Ex would kill their lover in a
fit of rage more so than a close friend or family member. While
killing someone with a platonic relationship to them is not unheard
of, there tends an intense bitterness between scorned lovers. Ex's
are more likely to want to cause their former lover nothing but
misery and try to ruin their lives. Again I am not asserting this
cannot happen in platonic relationships, but I sense the intensity of
emotions that followed consequently from Guts leaving felt more
indicative of a deeper obsession.
The author, however, definitely chose
to keep the nature of Griffith's feelings ambiguous and I feel it is
very much intentional. Upon Griffith and Guts meeting for their first
duel, Griffith tells Guts he finds him much to his liking and that he
wants him. Guts' immediate reaction was something to the effect of,
“You a fag?” While one can interpret that as merely a comedic
line, Griffith never responds to it. Perhaps to him it didn't matter
how Guts saw that statement. Guts even mentions it again in the manga
where if he loses he can be Griffith's butt boy or something just as
offensive and still Griffith has no remarks to his scathing
statements. I feel it says nothing about Griffith personally, moreso
that the author wanted to subtly suggest the option for the readers.
That is, if I recall the manga right.
Either way, fantastic video and I love
watching your analysis and interpretations.
Wow, thanks so much for watching and leaving such a well-thought out response. I'd like to just comment on your first paragraph.
I think that platonic relations can be extreme as well, in anime (see FMA for example) and life also. I know in my life I've seen plenty of intense familial bonds. But I suppose it depends on your perspective. And while you are right in saying that romanticism is more akin to the type of possessiveness that Griffith displays, we must remind ourselves that this is not any classic relationship, and this is not just any man. It is in Griffith's nature to be possessive. So I wouldn't really use his possessiveness as evidence for romanticism - it is simply who he is.
All just my opinion, obviously. Just wanted to leave my two cents here. Again, thanks very much for this incredible response.
Heh, thank you for your thoughts. I enjoy hearing your perspective.
I don't know if you will get this, but it's also important to note that different time periods have had different conceptions of what sexual relationships and friendships exactly mean, and during certain points in time, people could be much closer to the friends they had of the same sex than their wives or mistresses.
We are looking at it from a very modern perspective, and from our own society.
But yeah, i get the impression that it goes beyond just basic platonic friendship as well.
Possessiveness do happens in platonic relationships too, like in some family dynamics where a parent may don't want their children to go on a path other than what the parents specifically wanted for their children to go to
I say romanic. You forgot to point out an important part, Griffith's jealousy of Guts' and Caska's relationship. Why would he be jealous unless his attraction for him is romantic? He clearly isn't in love with Caska, so it points out that he's jealous of Guts' affection towards Caska. And that happened AFTER Guts saved him from the torture chamber. He knew he was important to guts, but not the way he wanted to be. This also explains his actions at the Eclipse. It becomes much clearer after a second read.
I didn’t point that out because that jealousy is due to another reason - hubris. He used to be the most important person in both of their lives, but it’s clear that he’s not any more.
Well I should have figured that's why you didn't mention it. I thought so too, but now I believe there's more to it than just a hubris. He fell from grace, and then he saw them together... and that pissed him off. But like you said, I guess there's more than one way to interpret it. Good video regardless of that, most people just shrug off the notion of it altogether.
Can be. But he could be jealously because he is no longer the most important person to Gutts and Casca. Griffith didn't listen but the own soldiers wanted to "replace" him with Gutts. So I think Griffith had some irracional and negative feelings for Gutts, because maybe he could think that all was his fault.
People with platonic relationships can get jealous if the shifts their interest to another person romantically. It happens a lot when one friend starts a relationship with someone else or gets closer platonically to another friend. Jealousy doesn't always equal romance.
@@opticalraven1935 If it wasn't romantic then would make Griffith petty as fuck. It makes more sense for someone be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice over romantic or passional feelings than just a mere whim because he wasn't the coolest guy in his friends's eyes.
I'm re-reading through Berserk for the 5th time, and my feeling is that Griffith definitely has romantic feelings for Guts.
In the way he looks at Casca and Guts when they save him, the fact the only thing keeping him going through torture is Guts, the fact that the thing that got him into that situation and the only thing he lost sight of his dream for, is Guts.
That's way too much for platonic feelings.
You’re definitely not wrong. Thing is, there are alternate, very appropriate and justifiable reasons for all of those points as well that don’t have anything to do with romance. It really can’t be confirmed one way or another, which is why my hypothesis is what it is.
Yes, I didn't disagree with anything you said in this video because Griffith is such a unique character with unique drives that seeing things in a binary manner can only lead to misreadings.
I think that making Griffith entirely voiceless during the rescue arc contributed a lot to blurring the line between the two aspects of his relationship with Guts.
The only thing we know for sure is that Guts became an essential part of Griffith' determination as a person despite not fitting the definition of an equal (assuming we take what he said at face value).
Guts was special to him.
But my feelings tell be he loves Guts, the way Miura frames their encounters and small chat is very reminiscent of Shojo manga to me.
After watching and reviewing the 1997 anime i felt Griffith downfall was due to the fact Guts left and his defeat in their sword fight as he felt powerless and hurt giving the fact this was the first time he felt defeat in his life and to feel in control he felt with princess Charlotte to feel he was still in control and even after guts saved him you could tell Griffith was angry at guts and when trying to put his hand on guts neck showed he blamed him for his downfall
@@comicbookreviewer4856 yes he blamed guts for his downfall, but what did he do right after that? Once he saw guts shed tears, griffith dropped his arm and held guts forearm, letting go of choking guts. Thats an explanation of both his hatred for guts, but also his love for guts.
@@darrensterling3039 Love and hate or 2 sides of the same coin, so definitely.
I think it's quite clear Griffith is gay for gutz. When he first saw him he wanted him to join badly. He singled him out from everyone else because he had that affection. When Gutz left he was heartbroken, and shattered, and thinking about Gutz whilst having sex with Charlotte again was clear cut. Also we have seen that Griffith has been with men before although he was doing it use the man,, but again it's not something a heterosexual man would do. I remember after his torture Griffith was describing Gutz as the only distraction from his goal and was describing him in what would be strange if it was platonic. Also he became jealous when he saw casca and Gutz kiss together, that's what spurred him to take the carriage and leave, and probably played a big choice in his decision to accept the proposal, as he saw it as a betrayal. Again the fact that when he raped Casca he did it to spite Gutz looking at him the whole time. It's clear Griffith had strong emotions for gutz that go beyond brotherly love, as he said himself it caused him to compromise himself, his own goal of having a kingdom.
that introspective monologue Griffith had with himself whilst being tortured that you mention really was the final nail in the coffin for me. In it I remember Griffith saying that his dream of a Kingdom was the only thing that mattered to him, the only thing that shone brightly in his eyes. He then goes on to say that Guts now shines brighter and obscures this vision in his mind. He then mentions how the thought of Guts is the only thing keeping him from losing his mind. I believe it's because Casca sees this that she initially resented Gut's, true that Griffith viewed the Hawks as tools but in the case of Guts he actually risked his life for him, something Casca says Griffith never does, hinting that this cannot be his outlook towards Guts. Finally the thing that sent Griffith over the edge ,wasn't simply the torture he endured. It's when he overheard Casca telling Guts to leave again if he truly considers himself Griffith's equal. This is what ultimately broke Griffith leading to the Eclipse minutes later. I find it hard to believe that an individual would behave in the manner if the emotions at hand weren't of passion.
Muj Khan I agree...It's much more deeper than a Platonic relationship.
Nobody goes crazy mad when a "friend" leaves.
But I also think that control plays a key role in this relationship.Guts was the only one Griffith couldn't control, the only one who turned his back to him to find his own dream and that was a slap to Griffith because it meant that Guts wasn't his subordinate, he was his equal.
Muj Khan so someone can be jealous of there friends lover without it being romantic. I have a best friend and I never have cared about another human being so much in my life and it’s not because I’m in love with him because that would be pointless because he’s straight. The reason I care so much about him is like me he hates it when people try and sugar coat life, he views life has harsh and unforgiving like myself. He always thinks about me. giving me gifts on my birthday and before he got into a relationship we hung out like almost everyday giving advice and when times were tuff we supported eatchother. He acted like the brother that I wish I had and since he got into a relationship I only see him once a week because of his girlfriend and as such I down right despise her not because of some sort of crush but because I believe that a close platonic relationship should be just as important as any romantic relationship and putting one above the other is selfish as fuck. I get depressed a lot as well because I can’t see him as much anymore. While I don’t agree with what Griffith did I understand why he broke down. He could not relate to anyone else and the only one he could relate too and consider a friend left and because Griffith is a person who is more logical than emotionally when he finally felt emotion for the first time he couldn’t handle it.
@@rob20ist same here. Only i'm a woman. Often i confused if i got feelings for my best friend. But i realized, it just a natural thing. We love somebody whom are our equal, albeit it was rival or best friend. And it was hard to share. Like a child side of us.
He is attracted to guts and he has a deep relationship with him. And him distraught for casca becoming guts lover fit in as well. Because he could also be distraught over guts becoming cascas lover. And i mean he had sex with men, the baron was just a terrible person so of course that wasnt enjoyable.
I think muira did the ambigious gay trope, just better execured than usual.
I agree with this analysis for the most part. I also think because Griffith is such a complex character, as is his relationship with Guts, that it shows a theme in Berserk about communication. Mainly communication of feelings. For instance, say Guts tells Griffith about what he overheard him say to Charlotte at the mansion. Does Griffith confess his true feelings for guts and explain that he is the exception of who he calls a friend? Even later at the Eclipse, although a different character and situation. Judeau finally realizes that he wishes he expressed his love for Casca as he was dying by her side. I'm not sure if Miura was trying to make the importance of communicating feelings an underlying theme but ultimately it's there.
the simplest reason to why i think griffith has romantic feelings for guts is that Miura's universe is heavily influenced by Nagai's, whose antagonist is EXTREMELY gay for the main, rough protagonist. just my two cents here tho
Shin was kinda gay for Kenshiro too wasn't he? 😂
Which Nagai are you referring to?!
Relationship status:
[ ] Fucking
[ ] Not fucking
[ ] Not fucking, but wish we were
[ ] Manipulating each other for personal gain
[x] It's complicated
[x] I have control issues
Look, I DO agree about the having sxx to regain control etc. but... the holding himself while crying afterwards?? That will ALWAYS look like he was broken-hearted to me. Scene after scene in this anime took me and my husband by surprise and we kept wondering “Is Griffith... gay for Guts?” This scene REALLY cemented that thought in our minds.
The type of person Griffith is I don’t believe he would have allowed himself to fall in love. He’s too driven and focused on his dream. But I do believe that Guts was the first person he ever connected to. I totally agree that he constantly reminded Guts “you belong to me” in order to keep him in place and prevent losing him- In another time and place he may have had the chance to explore those emotions and realize what he truly felt for Guts.
I see Guts and Griffith's relationship as similar to the one existing in the Iliad between Achilles and Patroclus. Patroclus "leaves" Achilles and he loses his mind.
Well, Patrocles and Achilles dod have a queer relationship. It was normal for men to have queer relationships at the time in Greece. But at the same time, their society forced men and women to have relations with one another (basically, forcing them to have children). But if a man had children and a woman, nobody cared if he had a man as well. Some women had something similar with other women as well, but it was less accepted for them.
I like that it's so vague... Personally, I lean towards the romantic side, but I may be attaching personal experiences to the story. I came out gay before pop culture made it trendy and had a hard time sorting through feelings. I know unhealthy obsession well and I know how it can twist your mind and actions.
I hate to say it, but I always saw the worst of myself in Griffith and that's probably why I found him compelling. That and I always liked stories that showed the darkness brought on by the corruption of love. In this case, the thing that made Griffith human is what ultimately robbed him of his humanity.
Bro so true speak on it-
To me, Griffith is "Greek Gay" as in he only feels a closness with other men, while women are good for reproductive purposes. He has a very dismissive, utilitarian attitude with the women he interacts with in the show (He flat out uses Casca, caring little for her womanhood, and the Princess is a stepping stone) while Guts CLEARLY inflames the man's passions.
His early homosexual experience might have tipped his sexuality in one direction as well, even though it was a disgusting and harmful experience.
greek gay hm? gotta start using that one 😂🏳️🌈
@@DaniloSantosVieira Greek Gay tm
It was clear to me that he felt romantic love just because romantic love is the love known to destroy someone and cause them to evolve. Guts and casca didn’t show any romance til they actually did the deed. I feel like denying that griffith was in love with guts still at this point after all the content we were given including casca herself saying Griffith loves guts more than anyone, is just homophobia.
Fans thats can’t accept it. Etc...
Gay or bi Griffith is still an amazing character and his love for guts and its downfall is pretty much the skeleton for the whole story.
I think he was falling in love with guts but when he left him became hateful and animosity
Very probable, as we never get to see how the relationship manifests.
Aleczandxr I fell in love with someone and didnt end so well now I despise them
It's like what happened to me I fell in love with someone then she did something terrible despise them
Henry Nova Sorry to hear that dude.
Its alright its my fault for believe them
"It's an interesting question, and not one I have a *straight* forward answer to"
Nice.
When you engage in politically sensitive high-stakes intercourse that requires your full attention, yet your thoughts are dominated by another man throughout the entire act, it's kind of hard for this conversation to not pop up.
Best comment honestly!
I can see how I can be seen like that but then again I don't think that's the case. Why? Griffith thinks at Guts because Guts broke him. He made him look weak against the band and also he for the first time wasn't in control. So he looses his prowess as a undefeated fighter and control over the situation. He thinks at Guts because he can't accept it. Later, after he is tortured, he tries to sleep with Casca and also thinks how would be to have a family with her. And also try to choke Guts showing his resentment. And why did he rape Casca if he gay for Guts? That only further proves that he wants to take the power from Guts back. That's why he humiliates Guts in his devilish way. Miura a genius with his penmanship. The man put so manny layers in his manga... How did he think at all this? It would have been the same if he needed to put all it out in one go, like a novel or an epic poem?
Obviously romantic.
It just happens that Griffith is a psychopath.
no its not. stick to your gay yaoi fanfic crap
I agree.
BR 2049 failed and I Lost hope in Humanity ummm... no offence but berserk was partly inspired by a gay anime and it makes many references to that
emlmm88 I would say sociopath suits him better.
I can't quite agree, and I can't quite disagree either. The difference between romantic and platonic are difficult to make here, that's true... One might say Griffith felt for Gatsu "true love" but that it's not necessarily "romantic". Do I think Griffith desired Gatsu? Yes, actually, I think he desided him more than he knew. He desired love, Gatsu's love, and having it taken away (by Gatsu himself, when leaving) shred him emotionally more than he could cope. And as is, the point is not if Griffith desired Gatsu sexually in the scene with Charlotte, but that he felt a desperate need to fill the hole in his chest caused by Gatsu's leaving, by sleeping with Charlotte, even if it was the most stupid choice he made and lost everything because of it.
No, I don't think he thought sleeping with the princess out of wedlock would cause him to secure power. I think he himself, had he been thinking rationally, would have realized this was the most irrational choice he could make. He was simply not thinking but of his hurt, and because he could not think out of his emotional pain, he made a dumb choice... *Why* he felt this much of an emotional pain and loss is the real issue. And *why* for that particular loss he thought (if instintively) sex with another would be a fitting consolation...
Hence why I lean on the interpretation that it wasn't platonic love per say. Platonic doesn't quite cut it. Point of order: You mentioned not seeing indications of romantic interest from Griffith, but the very first interaction on the hill when Griffith tells Gatsu he "wants" Gatsu, he never actually says "for his army"; he just *wants* Gatsu. In the manga, Gatsu even straight-forwards asks "are you homo?" with Griffith avoiding the question. I think Griffith perceives his desire here and acts on it, while never quite addressing it as more as a want he wants to fulfill. Then, further along the line, the manga keeps reminding us Griffith "choose" Gatsu - mostly through a very jealous Caska -, in a behavior he never exhibits for anybody else. The manga and anime doesn't quite say it, but heavily implies it.
I say "true love" but not "romantic" because I think we are used to think one expression connected to another, but there's a subtle difference... To understand Griffith's over-the-top reaction to losing Gatsu, the only explanation avaible to us, if subtle, is that of "true love". In the sense that it wasn't a superficial kind of care, like he had for his subordinates (and fellow human beings), but something that can shake him - and did shake him - to his very core when lost. Something that he desired, steaming from something any human would: connection. We all have emotional connection to all our peers through empathy, but there's very few people we actually let in. "Romantic"... is a behavior, and doesn't really have any correlation to real care, outside of cultural beliefs. But most of us fill our desire for affection and connection with what we call "romantic love", hence our confusion and the need to make this distinction.
And Berserk is truly a good example of this, both though Griffith and Gatsu's emotional journeys. Both wanted acceptance, total and unwavering; they wanted not only a friend, but a life-mate. Neither placed sexual attraction as a point of reference for said companionship... but, I think, not for absence of it.
And I don't think Griffith would have pushed for a romantic relationship with Gatsu, because he was so emotionally dependant on him, he would have sacrificed that sexual desire if it meant Gatsu would never leave him. He was so emotionally invested in Gatsu, pursuing him any more than this might be... counterproductive, in the event of a break up. And it was, in the long run, if we consider how his emotional hold and desire for Gatsu made him lose sight of what he was doing and contributed to his downfall. Griffith was too human to keep himself from desiring, however.
Sorry, I rambled. My two cents.
Perfectly said 👏👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Pay attention to the way he looks at Guts. Or when he said "you belong to me" while holding Guts's face. Or when they talked about why he tried to save him from Zod. I think it's romantic because of his body language and expressions when he looks at Guts or is around him
sorry but Griffith like Guys as bkth a brother AND a lover. There's no way any man could make love to any beautiful woman while thinking about another man without it being completely. homosexual.
It doest need to be overt, it is hidden, the same way he hid that night with the king from EVERYONE he knew, including Guts. The only person who knew was Casca and that's because of pure chance.
Griffith always cared intensly about Guts, his life, his death, his opinions. Guts is the only one to slap Griffith on the back and have him be completely deshelved by it and still be more than cordial with him at the end of the day. That means romantic love
He would have never truly fought anyone else had they decided to leave nor would he chase anyone down and go to such huge, major lengths just to get that person to join in the first place. That's why they always stress that out of all the people, wars, battles etc that GUTS was the only who could make him forget his dream.
i always thought that he was having sex so that he would stop thinking about guts
listen i can make love and think about other things that bothers me, when something or some one bothers you, u will think of that person reguardless what you are doing
Every emotion a human could feel in a true way, Griffith had those emotions for Guts. Everyone else are his property, Guts, is a friend, and he not only loves Guts for it. he also HATES him for it. He would be a perfect strategist, if it wasn't for Guts, Guts is someone who defies everything, expectations, other people, and even destiny itself. Conquering Guts heart as he did with the hawks to the point Guts would do anything for him was his goal, his failure is what gave him emotions. But it's not a normal way of having emotions, it's a mad man way ofhaving emotions. Grifith both loves and despises Guts at the same time.
He is used to be adored by the people close to him. But Guts... Guts sees him as equal, and he is AFRAID of being seen as equal. His ambition is so big NOBODY can say no to Griffith.
Griffith is batshit insane.
He viewed his as partner and equal but was afraid of intimacy, its tragic, they would make such a good power couple.
I believe your use of a 'spectrum' was probably best, but seeing Griffith's lack of understanding of his own feelings greatly reminded me of something - Your video on Meruem and his own lack of understanding on his interpersonal relationship with Komugi and just what it was he wanted to do with her. I've seen similar debate on whether their love was a romantic or platonic one, though, I'll push that aside for now, the cases have similarities but are also greatly different scenarios in each their own right as Miura and Togashi are both one of a kind writers.
I would have to compare it to something like this. Ignoring many exceptions for the sake of simplicity, most commonly in life, we have our family and friends who are irreplaceable and dear to us, but human beings generally give the highest of this emotional attachment to their spouse. Generally, these are the one special individual who we go above and beyond for, feel as though we cannot live without, and can be far more vulnerable with than our best friend, once again, keeping simplicity in mind, ignoring the exceptions to this rule. The vulnerability especially is something a healthy adult male should be able to express to his wife, and it seems obvious by the series itself from moments such as Casca having to spell it out for Guts that Griffith, as much as he wanted to be the lone charismatic leader, was in fact still human and did need someone to fulfill the roles of human companionship that even Griffith, as a human, could not go entirely without, and Guts had become the one sole person who he could relax and be Griffith the man around and not Griffith, leader of the band of the hawk. Guts was pretty oblivious to this which is why Casca had to flat out tell him, and also why he would frequently make jokes to Griffith that he could just "Order" him to do whatever it was he needed without being so kind and considerate to him.
During these one on one encounters was when Griffith showed the same kind of utmost trust and vulnerability in Guts that I believe quasi-parallels that of your spouse. He put absolute faith in Guts, like no other soldier. He treated him wholly as something too precious to give up, saving his life in signs of worry that don't read as concern of a brother in arms as much as it did that of something so precious as your lifelong partner. Now, there's no denying there was the manipulative side of Griffith at play too because of Guts value as a soldier, but this never explained, (Nor am I convinced by the, 'Griffith saw Guts as so important that his army wouldn't ever succeed without him' argument.) why he would put himself and his reputation with nobles at risk solely out of concern for Guts personal safety. He gave Guts options, not enslaving him to do anything against his will, but only as a fellow partner and the only one he could trust. He offered himself up to Guts' judgment too, listening out to whether Guts had complaint with anything he requested of him in their solo discussions. More went on here than a mere secret classified meeting about Griffith's plans that they couldn't risk anyone being knowledgable of.
So am I trying to make a point that this is indeed a romantic relationship? No, only that it is an odd love that is comparable to the love we feel for a spouse. Where it differs is that while it may be a very similar kind of love, the more primal lust type feelings of sexual attraction were completely absent. He needed Guts like he were his twin flame, ironic because Guts was pushed away by Griffith's speech about a true friend, while Guts had made that speech completely false by developing that level of emotional involvement without first meeting Griffith's philosophical ideal and requirements for what such a person would be like. Guts and Griffith had a more profound love that didn't dwell on things like sexuality, especially given their lack of interest (Atleast pre-Casca for Guts due to his childhood trauma) and Griffith's own, sexual attraction was possibly the only thing that was of no interest for them to express in a love which was transcended above the basic understanding of human life partner relationships. So if this desire and lust is absolutely necessary for the feelings Griffith held towards Guts to be 'romantic', then since it just does not exist, I would say the middle of that bar would be a great place to mark where Griffith's feelings belong. Not wholly platonic. Not wholly romantic. Somewhere very grey and near perfectly wedged in the middle.
Dude literally thought about Guts while rearrange the guts of the princess, there is only a few things as gay as this.
I think we will never know what Griffith exactly felt towards Guts because he himself never knew. The absolute genius of Miura here is to make us see this relationship exactly as Griffith and Guts did : undefinable
Yeah, totally agree. The beauty of the relationship dynamics is that they're so complex and undefinable. The strength of the feelings is basically the only thing that is clear about the whole situation.
7:38 "You belong to me."
YEP DEFINITELY ROMANTIC THO HE MAY NOT HAVE REALIZED IT YET AHAHAHA THIS SEALS THE DEAL
Griffith: I WANT YOU GUTS
Guts: You want me to be a part of the band of the hawk right?
Griffith:😏
Guts: RIGHT?
Dude Griffith is super in love with Guts, come on man…
What’s the problem? I think my argument is extremely well-reasoned. Griffith does not have the emotional intelligence and self-awareness to understand the specificity of his own feelings, so he can’t place them. Are there homoerotic notes throughout the series? Absolutely. But Griffith’s psychology is unique.
kenturo muira based the relationship of guts and Griffiths on akira fudo and Ryo asuma from the devil man manga by Go Nagai. in it you can see akira as guts because of his passionate rage in his battles. Ryo is really Lucifer and since he is a hermaphrodite, his female half fell in love with akira. then set the stage for akira's girlfriend to get brutally mutilated and murdered, some what like casca.
I know sounds crazy but Lucifer and akira actually get together in a way. you see in devil man lady Lucifer split into his male and female half in devil man lady manga. his female half finds herself in hell were a bunch of demons have and are trying to continue to rape her but akira saves her, they become close, have flying sex, she eventually finds her way out of hell while pregnant by akira and when she has the baby it's akira reiterated. lastly they join forces against arc Angel Michael and god who is really an alien that invaded earth long ago. so see Mao Dante for those details and sorry for the long tangent lol. Great video bro.
Sorry for the typo I meant reincarnated
Yeah, Miura DID say that he was influenced by Go Nagai's works when writing "Berserk" (and Puck even makes a reference to "Devilman" in the manga itself).
sanna karppinen But hetero friends totally do say these things, the whole fake-home joking between male friends is totally common, particularly in hyper masculine cultures like among soldiers.
No comment on whether I think they were meant romantically or platonically, just that hetero men do say that.
Lol I liked this comment a year ago
Now that Devilman Crybaby has hit the mainstream and has brought awareness to how OG Devilman influences Berserk, I would love to see a follow up on this
Hh
I'm not sure I agree with some of the arguments you made regarding things like the naked water fight and the scene where Griffith sleeps with Charlotte, because it seems like your argument there is, "these scenes have this complex, layered meaning, and here's what I think it is; therefore, it also can't have homoerotic subtext ontop of that." It can totally have both, which further complicates Griffith's emotions as they relate to Guts. I agree that Griffith's relationship with Guts is vague, and I also agree that it could be a whirlwind of complicated emotions that potentially go beyond platonic and romantic into some indefinable mix, but I think that saying, "ehh I think we can find ANOTHER reason for Griffith having a water fight with Guts with his dick out" is working against the possibility of a scene having layered and multitudinous meanings.
Thanks for watching and commenting mate. I realize that I said "I don't think the water fight means anything, really" but I didn't mean to rule out romance in this scene. I actually said that despite me thinking that it was mostly nonromantic, it definitely had erotic subtext. So I wasn't saying that "therefore, it cannot have homoerotic subtext," in fact, I said the opposite. I just don't think this subtext was that significant and just meant to say that there was quite a bit more to it. And you're definitely right on saying that, though I think sex scene flashbacks were almost entirely nonromantic.
As I said, there was homoerotic subtext in the water fight (and perhaps the sex scene as well, though like I said, I don't really buy it).. My argument was simply that because there is more depth to them than JUST romantic hints (which I think you'll agree), it makes it hard to have any explicit evidence. And when deciding between Platonic or romantic care with very little evidence, it is simply easier to rule out romance due to the nature of it. Hopefully you understand what I mean. As I said, it's a spectrum. And if I had to choose, I'd lean towards Platonism but not completely rule out romance for these vague romantic undertones. But as I said, I'm of the opinion that it is neither in the end.
I was kind of reducing your argument a little bit, but I still think that saying that "there is more to something than the romantic subtext" doesn't necessarily mean that the romantic subtext isn't there, which it's clear you agree with because you do, in fact, argue for it's existence. For me though, this begs the question of why one necessarily needs to choose a side between the two in the first place as you do in the first half of the video. Like, I don't think you really need to say "if I had to choose a side," because you don't need to. In the end, you conclude with that same sentiment, so I just feel like defending the side of Platonism for so long seems a little reductive to your final argument. Really though, I think this is an interesting topic to discuss, and I think your conclusion, and the second half of your video as a whole, was a point worth making and discussing.
SlowkingCole Well, the point of the video wasn't necessarily to try and convince people that my view is right. I tackle the "choosing a side" aspect because those are just my views on it that I wanted to share. I'm not too concerned if it took away from my final argument, because that's not really why I made the video. I just wanted to lay out my interpretation and opinion of the topic and see how others felt about it. While I do try to back up my points, that's only because opinions without elaboration are null and void for videos like this in my eyes. This was meant to be more of a semi-structured stream of consciousness than an argumentative essay, where I could just share my views and see how others felt about it. Others like you! :)
Yeah, I was thinking about that a little. A lot of what I say becomes null when "I" phrases like "I just don't buy it" are thrown into the mix of your video & comments. I'm just really used to an academic, rhetorical setting, and so I focus on that when I watch video essays like this. I definitely think that your views are valid, and if I have time later, I'll throw my two cents into the discourse too.
@@cunkfucklyVEVO
Personally, I’d find him being physically attracted to men to make his experience of sleeping with lord Gennon less traumatic and less of the sacrifice he described it as.
Berserk Official Guidebook Interview (2017)
Interviewer: You knew from the start how it was going to end.
Miura: I knew the Eclipse was coming, so there truly was nowhere to run! Also, there's a reason I made the Golden Age arc as long as it was. I felt dissatisfied with the so-called flashback scenes in a number of works. It's typical to stick flashbacks in just as a short break in order to maintain the pace of a story, but I wanted to potently feel, from the bottom of my heart, the reason for Guts' revenge and the basis of his character development. If the flashback lasts only a short time, it runs the risk of merely amounting to information. Since I'm the one drawing it, I need to make it more of a story you can invest in emotionally... and that's how it ended up being sooo long [laugh].
Interviewer: But it's because this happened that Guts' anger comes through sufficiently.
Miura: I had to make something that readers would accept was enough to make anybody angry. Because of that, it came down to how dramatically and naturally I could depict Guts fully forming his precious bonds with people. For the relationship between Guts and Griffith, I'm using myself and my close friend and fellow manga artist Koji Mori (Suicide Island, etc.) as a model. Which one of us is Guts and which is Griffith switches from time to time, but I think it serves as a symbol of male friendship.
Interviewer: You put so much emotion into those characters, and when the Eclipse happens, they're all gone. That must have left some scars on you as the artist.
Miura: I was emotionally invested in each character, so I felt more depressed than scarred. And the story went way down in popularity with the readers around the time of the Eclipse [laugh]. Many readers were furious that I'd do such a thing to the characters they liked. My editor at the time was concerned but also of the opinion that we'd just have to follow it through to the end. The point I had to pay attention to was making sure the flow of the story wasn't completely severed with the Eclipse. That's why I spared Casca. If she had died and the serialization had continued for a long time, I feared the reason for revenge would become something of the past; and if Guts were to establish new relationships, then his incentive would waver. It may seem calculating and unpleasant, but it's because Casca's by his side that he can never forget the Eclipse.
I honestly think that the water fight scene is to show that, they are still kids. In a world where you fight or you die, they don't get to live their childhood. Look at Rickon. Poor fycker hasn't had a day off since they found him. But it beats being dead!
Man Griffith straight up loved Guts ,he was willing to kill him rather than have him leave,and when Guts beats him and leaves the band that man Griffith absolutely lost it 😂😂😂😂tell me that's not that sick love 😂
Bro acted like a wife being cheated 💀
@@AristotejoeLMAO
Well it's hard to define his feelings, and I loved how you used a spectrum instead of a binary relation of Platonic and Romantic feelings, because the shortest answer is that Griffith is obsessed with Guts. Obsession can be placed and moved along a spectrum of Platonic and Romantic feelings easily. All we know for sure is that Griffith not only wants Guts but feels like he needs him to always be there.
I think if it was romantic, he didn't understand the feeling because romance is another place for him to exert power.
Good points. Some people in the comments are so pressed though. 😂
The amount of mental gymnastics some Berserk fans will do in order to deny the homoerotic undertones of their friendship is hilarious.
I love Griffith so much.Until he turned into Femto.His story is so tragic, Griffith is my favorite character in the show.
Before he turned into Fempto.After that Guts became my favorite character, he looks awesome in his Berserker armor too.
Great and informative video as always man! Keep up the good work.
Thank you!
I think Griffith's feelings for guts are romantic, but not Erotic. He loves him. But sex to Griffith has become synonymous with power exchange, not love.
If you ever thought your ex got toxic when you left her/him then think about what Griffith did when Guts left him.
I think the whole point of his feelings in the narrative is that Grifith himself doesn´t know how to classify his feelings for Guts being that one of the reasons why they eat at him, he doesn´t know what to do with them and they make him weak.
zodds prophecy lays it all out.
also Caska realizes his feeling for Guts and tells him so. she never asked to be born a woman.
Not to mention how many times Griffith tries to confess his feelings for him and have Guts reciprocate them. if we could talk I could give plenty of romantic examples.
Guts is straight end of story. and Griffith during the water fight was him judging his reaction with seeing him naked. power move. but your comment at 5:35 and about muira are pretty spot on.
Tyler Richards, what was Zoods prophecy?
As a gay man, my opinion is that they are *both* attracted to each other
It's a Nietzschean friendship, an obsession with each other's will to power. Helps to increase this attraction the fact that one is very manly and the other is very feminine.
Like Albus Dumbledore and Gellert Grindelwald
Romantic or Platonic, one cannot deny the immense palpable homoeroticism between these two.
Griffith was always a perfectionist one, he won't show his love for guts. That's a sign of weakness. But we all know he loves guts.
I'm rewatching Berserk 1997. As far as I'm seeing, Griffith, for the most part, has feelings for Guts that aren't particularly platonic nor romantic, but more that of ownership. Griffith seems to see most people as assets above all, and Guts himself was his most important.
When Guts finally leaves the Band of the Hawk, Griffith's forced to see him as something that he can no longer control. He's powerless in the face of Guts' defiance, and he's forced to compare him as a peer instead of a possession. And he can't handle that.
It's a bit like having your favorite dog leave you on his own volition, because he beat you in a sword fight.
Read the manga!!! The anime and movies are both mediocre
he hates guts because he dared to see him as equal. And also loves him, because that means Guts is a true friend.
Guts is what made Griffith Human, and Griffith loathed that
I hate when my dog beats me in a sword fight!
i KNOW for a fact when griffith was railing casca he was looking at guts like "this could've been us"💀
Platonically romantic is what I call it.
I think the word we keep dancing around here is "Vulnerability".
Griffith was a very proud person who prided himself on being a leader, a unrivaled swordsman in a enviroment that is drenched in hypermasculinity.
Guts was the only person he could rely on to not try to knock him off his position at the top of the hiearchy, because Guts had no interests or ambition of such matters. He saw an equal in Guts, despite having bested him in battle. Around Guts, he didnt need to be the leader, he could just be himself, a quite young man who just wanted a place in the world he could call home and people he could call family.
just found this channel and loving the content
This is perfect. I love your explanation. I've thought some of the same things.
the fact that griffith was originally a girl proves it’s romantic
was he? did kento miura ever said that?
@@leonaswwifein the prototype of berserk Griffith was a young girl, so it would be weird if the relationship was romantic
@@BASAACGuts was like 15 at the time he met Griffith, young girl can mean alot of things.
@@UjwalNunu nah but we’re talking little girl young
Guys can love each other without being gay. Loosing a friend who is like a brother can be devastating without being gay.
Gaaaay
Can he fuck a dude without being gay? Because he did that 😐
Yeah it was for money but he still let a man clap them cheeks
great video as always
Cheers pal.
I just wanna say that I really love the work you do on these vids and I've been a huge fan since your first berserk (and HxH) videos. I hope you keep them up!
Thanks so much my friend, I truly appreciate comments like this. I definitely will keep it up.
I think deep down griffith has some sort of attachment to being around guts almost like guts was a security blanket.
griffith is bi end of story
Well, the question/topic of debate isn't about Griffith's sexual orientation. It's about how he felt about Guts.
Aleczandxr true
he is not. He is asexual
He is gay for guts
Asexual you mean
very interesting and I've never really thought about it but the way you put it makes a lot of sense
Awesome, thanks for checking it out!
I Think is more likely both
Finally a youtuber that's know literature and how you should write a story.
Much appreciated!
as you said, it's not either romantic or platonic
it just special case related to the complexity of Griffith's character.
Griffith appreciate unique people so much , and he saw Guts that one who can consider him as real friend among the others , Griffith's not that one who doesn't have feelings, that is totally wrong
he is totally that person who have that ability to love and believe so deeply
so when he met Guts , he knew that is the one who can establish deep relationship with him no matter what it is
he just need a partner to share his destination with him , someone he can respect and appreciate so much
Griffith's not that one who interest in sexual desire or romantic relationships, he sees himself beyond these things
The longest, most sensible "I don't know either or I guess" on TH-cam. Lovely stuff.
Great vid as usual! I was really excited that you did one on this topic and i'm glad that you didn't make it with a really one sided opinion which most people tend to do with this pairing. Really excited to see even more Berserk content from you, or any content really, since you seem to have alot of the same taste in anime as me, I get so excited when I see any new video of yours! Keep up the wonderful work, I'll continue looking forward to it!
Your support is unbelievable and much appreciated. :) I don't want to give much away, but this isn't the last this channel has seen of Berserk. Though I do want to tackle some other things as well.
I am always slightly surprised to see people in the comments saying that Griffith didn't care about Guts and saw him solely as a tool when the story constantly goes out of its way to say otherwise.
People hate rapists🤷🏿♀️
@@unrepentantjaegerist7236 Hah, okay fair.
@@marvaz5073 I agree with you by the way, just wanted you to know😂
The only 2 times the character willingly expresses himself sexually are both focused on Guts, so yeah i do feel he has romantic feelings for him, but he is not the kind of person that can identify them. My answer is both, he has such powerful feelings for him, that even romantic feelings are included
Love the videos. Especially the ones abut Griffith.
Really good choice of sound track.
The premise of this video is built on a false dichotomy that assumes all love can be divided into platonic or romantic, but in actuality love is more complicated than that. The Greeks had four words for love, which I think helps this discussion much more than the binary people usually use:
Agape - brotherly love
Eros - sexual love
Philia - intense love of friends/comrades, usually predicated on a notion of equality between the two
Storge - parental love
Often in Greek philosophy these forms of love are not mutually exclusive and can overlap, but they give us a better framework than a simple “romantic/platonic” binary. I believe the love they share is one of philia, however, I also believe that Griffith holds an Eros type of love for guts that may not be reciprocated, which fuels the tension between the two. The interplay between philia and Eros is common in ancient Greek texts and there are many examples historically, such as Achilles and Patroclus, Alexander and hephaestion, and the theban band of lovers (an entire unit of soldiers composed of 150 pairs of male lovers). The homosocial bonding of the battlefield often developed into homosexual attraction in Greek society and it’s a common theme in Greek works, and I see that paralleled in the story of guts and Griffith. however, both guts and Griffith are closed off from sexuality for the most part- guts from his trauma at being raped by Donovan and Griffith because he only knows sex as a tool to use to get his way, not as a meeting of two equals with mutual attraction. Neither of them fully understands sexuality in a healthy way up to that point in the story really. So if one or both held some sort of sexual feeling for the other, it makes sense narratively as to why they wouldn’t have acted on it. Guts being able to even have sex at all in the story is a major part of his character development, and it doesn’t even happen until we’ll after he leaves Griffith and has come to better terms with himself as a person.
Regardless, there’s no denying that there is a homoerotic subtext at play that seems purposeful by Miura. Even the characters themselves comment on it- just look at the first dialogue between Griffith and guts for an example.
Actually the conclusion this video reaches is the exact opposite of that premise.
Examining the night with Charlotte:
Possibility #1) Griffith lost his MVP and aimed to further his standing in the court but made a mistake.
Possibility #2) Griffith lost someone he loved and wanted to gas-light all of his work in the best way possible. Because why rule a kingdom, why fight when the person you want to be with will never be with you through it all?
>>> Perhaps Griffith never cared about a kingdom or the Band until Guts showed up.
He had found his king ❤ and he was gonna be da queen 🏳️🌈
I completely agree with you, man. Great video!
Cheers!
You hit the nail right on the head.
Also one can have feelings for someone on any level and not react or do anything with them! Emotionally, Griffith could've been unable to reconcile that, he's usually seen never wanting anyone, eVER. Also, what's supposed to be his is his, yeah? Guts waltzing off and the subsequent breakdown was a spectacular display of how much power Griffith had allowed him to have without either of them really interacting with it. Sometimes you just fall in love with someone and it's effing complicated, especially when you toss in a cosmic need to be a savior because what you're probably really trying to save is yourself.
Guts contributed more towards Griffith's dreams than anyone else, which is the root of his admiration towards him.
Great video man!
Thanks!
I really like your videos and listening to your opinions :) Keep posting more!
:-)
i've only read a bit of the manga so far and seen the first movie, so this opinion might change but i think the irony is that Guts set out on his own to be worthy of Griffith's friendship when he already was Griffith's only friend. I always thought it was curious that despite the whole bet and him winning Guts, Griffith still asks Guts to kill for him, and later Griffith asks if Guts thinks he's a bad person. I think Griffith had an unusual need for approval from Guts he didn't care for from anyone else. Whenever Guts left, I think Griffith did what he did in part to prove to himself that he didn't care, and that he didn't need Guts to fulfill his dream.
Oh boy, it just kind of dawned on me... Griffith has always reminded me of Rhaegar Targaryan in more than just looks/age, and then I remembered Jon Connington, who was secretly in love with Rhaegar, was from GRIFFENS Roost!
Thank you for always making quality content :D I love your analysis on these subjects and would love to hear you dissect one of my favorite arcs of all time the Yorkshin arc of HxH :))
Awesome, thanks for watching my stuff :)
And I don't want to give anything away but if you're looking for some Yorkshin/Yorknew stuff, you won't have to wait longer than until my next HxH video. ;)
I immediately subscribed right after i watched my first video on your analysis on Meruem. It was so touching and felt so real to me :)) I hope you make it big so i'll be one of your first dedicated fan xD
Bilguun Bat Awesome, thank you so much :) I have a good few other HxH videos in case you haven't watched them if you're interested in those, and more coming in the future.
Trust me dude i watched all your videos :))
God your videos are amazing