Amazing insight on the tax cycling strategy, i have more than 15 years as a TW player and I usually use this strategy to (as you say) beat it quickly but never thought about the fact that doing that just eats the growth. Excellent video man, amazing. You got a sub! Thanks for these tips.
Thanks so much! I'm really glad you liked it! Part of the goal of my channel is to look at mechanics like these in games that I love (even "old" games) and give a fresh take on it. I appreciate the support.
You're welcome. I've been contemplating doing a "first 10-20 turns" type video to help illustrate how to start a campaign off on the right foot (as well as other vids about specific combat tactics). If any of that sounds useful lemme know.
So what do you think? Did this provide any insight into a mechanic you weren't aware of? Do you have some insight to share? Anything I overlooked? Do you wanna build a spreadsheet? (ala Frozen) ;) One editorial note: when I mention "income" for farm fertility, I'm really referring to "wealth". Wealth is the base number. The amount you get from taxes+metsuke on that wealth- that is "income". Technicalities.
My vassals tend to build a strong army, then rebel and attack me. My philosophy is, if they are weak enough to accept being a vassal, they are weak enough to conquer.
Good philosophy. A lot of vassal behavior depends on the vassal and what part of the game you're in. Some clans carry a grudge against you (e.g. Imagawa if you're Oda). Once you hit RD all your vassals will get the ticking realm divide penalty and eventually flip- some faster than others. Keeping tabs on their relation score helps with bribing ("gifts") to keep them in line and knowing who you have to revassal and when. The nice thing is if they flip and move their army away from their fort- you can storm the fort with your army, revassal (removing the RD penalty) and their army will stay intact so that they can help you police any subsequent rebels. I had one vassal last game that I was concerned about (the Hatano). They took out one of my vassals that flipped (fine) and wound up with a full stack of their own (also fine), but realm divide was building. The turn before they themselves flipped they put that stack in the way of my main rival (the Hatakeyama). Both armies wrecked themselves making it easy for me to clean up the situation.
i prefer having level 3 upgraded forts for all my provinces with fully upgraded farms. For economic provinces, you can build a sake den, a market, and a temple/church. For military provinces, you can build a stable, a yari, and armorer; or a bow, powder, and hunting lodge at least for the 8 core provinces then just vassals to increase trade income
All that fort upgrading is taking a lot of food out of the system (which means less growth/koku across your domain) as well as a lot of koku spent on building. You only need 5 of each market/etc to recruit the max amount of agents and you can spread that around through level 1 fort provs. (that's if you even wanted max ninja/monks) Part of the benefit of upgrading a fort is added recruitment slots, which you're really only going to be taking advantage of (or should be) in military provs. Temples and sake dens alone aren't adding enough to your economy to offset the economic drain of expanding a fort to make room for them. There usually has to be some other reason. Omi would be a good example of a fertile province, with the ninja village, that would make sense for both a market and a sake den. You need the den to recruit the better ninja, the village provides some added income, and it'll probably be one of you wealthier provinces overall- perfect for a metsuke/market. Plus having a stronger fort adjacent to Kyoto helps as you build up when it seems a lot of enemies want to attack you there. Obviously this makes more sense for the clans that are close to Omi (e.g. Oda) and less sense for clans that are only reaching it closer to mid/end-game. They probably already have whatever ninja/money provs set up. It's that level of intentionality that I think is important when deciding what fort to upgrade- particularly on Very Hard or Legendary difficulty. On lower difficulties it probably doesn't matter as much. Units cost less to recruit/upkeep, etc.
@@GameMnke i see.. i'm just comfortable defending sieges with level 3 forts. that additional layer gives me security from full stacks... the additional garrison units of spears and archers with a naginata warrior monks are a godsend right now, i'm doing a VH Ikko Ikki revolt only campaign until realm divide triggers. it's fun to just do a turtle strategy
@@Byenie0912 Well the Ikko Ikki is a different play in many ways. I'm also on an Ikko VH campaign atm. I definitely like the jodo shinshu temple's warrior monk garrison. I do agree that defending sieges with a level 3 fort is great. Particularly Kaga with the back door so you can run down the generals. But that's the military prov- and a great bottleneck- so I always upgrade that province. In my game I just took Owari and Oda stacked that place out. However the farm was barely upgraded, so it ended up sucking up some of my excess food. It'll be a great bottleneck for that region though. I plan on putting a temple in there as well. That's always one of my concerns late game in that sometimes you'll be taking over forts that the ai has upgraded but with crappy farms. On one hand there's less reason to make room for markets- so there's that. On the other hand, the Ikko struggle with money once RD hits, and markets give some money without much downside. At this point I haven't actually built any myself. I just inherit ones occasionally. Ikko is definitely a fun campaign. I'm already past the realm divide penalties. I just have to revassal a couple who turned on me- the rest are fixed or new. Good luck with your game!
the problem with the strategy is in legendary difficult the ai always destroy merchant guild or rice exchange and replace it with yari drill yard or archery range pro player usually only build rice exchange or merchant guild in province that already has sword school or any other unit training facility
Hey thanks for the comment. I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to- making vassals? Not upgrading market chain buildings? Focusing military in military provs? Can you be more specific?
@@GameMnke what i mean is pro player not upgrade castle or make special province for training unit especially if you use mod to make ai only training katana samurai instead of yari samurai
@@GameMnke usually on real legendary difficult with mod ai you will never win decisive victory or heroic victory the enemy ai daimyo only move with 40 army and its un defeated army because full katana samurai match lock and yari cavalry and the enemy raid squad always destroy market or rice exchange even destroy farm
@@GameMnke basically pro player saving the money and play defensive they make lot of sword school in almost every province then when 2 stack of un defeated enemy daimyo army come with 25 katana samurai 10 naginata and 10 yari cavalry you play defensive sabotage army and defend castle
@@GameMnke believe me standard legendary difficult is very easy for anyone play this game 10 years we install mod to make enemy ai only move with 40 unit army full of katana and naginata samurai and yari cavalry
Look, I appreciate the feedback. If you'd like me to give a strategic breakdown of a specific mod/modpack, maybe suggest one and if I like it, maybe I'll do that. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you want me to do with your feedback. There is no specific chapter you can point to that is, or even might be, "null advice" because it totally depends on what mods someone is using- agreed? If you're just doing the bug fixes like I am (oda umbrella, kisho ninja, etc), then it's all applicable. If you just mod to make boats cheaper, maybe only that element changes. If, however, you're playing with total conversions/overhauls (MoSS, Radious) then CLEARLY there are going to be many elements that have to be adapted- just like how not all of the strategy is wholecloth applicable to RotS or FotS (or WH3). Because it's not an identical game at that point. I don't think it's incumbent upon me to make such a disclaimer though- because it's obvious. I don't find myself compelled to post on MoSS videos "hey this doesn't work like that in vanilla- null advice!". ;) More importantly... I think there is HUGE value in the core/default/vanilla game and understanding the default mechanics. If all you play is a mod, without understanding what the mod is changing, then you really don't have a basis of comparison for anything in Shogun 2 because you can't speak to what things were to recognize what is different. In that regard when you look at the core strategy I present and you note "hey my mod does this different", you now know something more than you did before. And then you can make a value judgement- do you like the change? Do you find the change necessary to your enjoyment? Etc. That's the best I can do with what you gave me. If you shared "hey I play with mod X and this is different in Y way", then we could have a more substantive exchange over a specific issue. I'll point out, for example, that one of the big economic "features" of Shogun 2 is, I feel, badly implemented. It's how rice fields and market chain buildings work. RotS and FotS addressed this. I love Shogun 2, but it's one of the biggest flaws- err... features. I still like to play the game with this "feature" because if you're talking to people and they are asking questions about vanilla play (which happens plenty on reddit), if you're not able to speak to vanilla play/strategy, then really... what good is the advice you're giving? You might struggle to tell someone the benefits of vassals or how to use a matchlock if your only context is playing with mods. So that's what I have to say about that. Have fun!
Instructions unclear, took Kyoto turn 1, bought samurai, looted the entirety of Japan while tax pulsing and still won
As long as you had fun, I think you understood the most important lesson... Fly free, little bird. Fly...
Amazing insight on the tax cycling strategy, i have more than 15 years as a TW player and I usually use this strategy to (as you say) beat it quickly but never thought about the fact that doing that just eats the growth. Excellent video man, amazing. You got a sub! Thanks for these tips.
Thanks so much! I'm really glad you liked it! Part of the goal of my channel is to look at mechanics like these in games that I love (even "old" games) and give a fresh take on it. I appreciate the support.
Ive been playing Shogun 2 for a year and never knew about the downsides of tax pulsing. This video was really helpful and well done! TY
Glad you appreciated it!
i've been trying to win shogun 2 for like past 10 years and never had any luck, thx for this video
You're welcome. I've been contemplating doing a "first 10-20 turns" type video to help illustrate how to start a campaign off on the right foot (as well as other vids about specific combat tactics). If any of that sounds useful lemme know.
@@GameMnke well, yeah, actually. I would watch it for sure!
So what do you think? Did this provide any insight into a mechanic you weren't aware of? Do you have some insight to share? Anything I overlooked? Do you wanna build a spreadsheet? (ala Frozen) ;)
One editorial note: when I mention "income" for farm fertility, I'm really referring to "wealth". Wealth is the base number. The amount you get from taxes+metsuke on that wealth- that is "income". Technicalities.
My vassals tend to build a strong army, then rebel and attack me. My philosophy is, if they are weak enough to accept being a vassal, they are weak enough to conquer.
Good philosophy. A lot of vassal behavior depends on the vassal and what part of the game you're in. Some clans carry a grudge against you (e.g. Imagawa if you're Oda). Once you hit RD all your vassals will get the ticking realm divide penalty and eventually flip- some faster than others. Keeping tabs on their relation score helps with bribing ("gifts") to keep them in line and knowing who you have to revassal and when.
The nice thing is if they flip and move their army away from their fort- you can storm the fort with your army, revassal (removing the RD penalty) and their army will stay intact so that they can help you police any subsequent rebels.
I had one vassal last game that I was concerned about (the Hatano). They took out one of my vassals that flipped (fine) and wound up with a full stack of their own (also fine), but realm divide was building. The turn before they themselves flipped they put that stack in the way of my main rival (the Hatakeyama). Both armies wrecked themselves making it easy for me to clean up the situation.
i prefer having level 3 upgraded forts for all my provinces with fully upgraded farms. For economic provinces, you can build a sake den, a market, and a temple/church. For military provinces, you can build a stable, a yari, and armorer; or a bow, powder, and hunting lodge
at least for the 8 core provinces
then just vassals to increase trade income
All that fort upgrading is taking a lot of food out of the system (which means less growth/koku across your domain) as well as a lot of koku spent on building. You only need 5 of each market/etc to recruit the max amount of agents and you can spread that around through level 1 fort provs. (that's if you even wanted max ninja/monks) Part of the benefit of upgrading a fort is added recruitment slots, which you're really only going to be taking advantage of (or should be) in military provs.
Temples and sake dens alone aren't adding enough to your economy to offset the economic drain of expanding a fort to make room for them. There usually has to be some other reason. Omi would be a good example of a fertile province, with the ninja village, that would make sense for both a market and a sake den. You need the den to recruit the better ninja, the village provides some added income, and it'll probably be one of you wealthier provinces overall- perfect for a metsuke/market. Plus having a stronger fort adjacent to Kyoto helps as you build up when it seems a lot of enemies want to attack you there.
Obviously this makes more sense for the clans that are close to Omi (e.g. Oda) and less sense for clans that are only reaching it closer to mid/end-game. They probably already have whatever ninja/money provs set up.
It's that level of intentionality that I think is important when deciding what fort to upgrade- particularly on Very Hard or Legendary difficulty. On lower difficulties it probably doesn't matter as much. Units cost less to recruit/upkeep, etc.
@@GameMnke i see.. i'm just comfortable defending sieges with level 3 forts. that additional layer gives me security from full stacks... the additional garrison units of spears and archers with a naginata warrior monks are a godsend
right now, i'm doing a VH Ikko Ikki revolt only campaign until realm divide triggers. it's fun to just do a turtle strategy
@@Byenie0912 Well the Ikko Ikki is a different play in many ways. I'm also on an Ikko VH campaign atm. I definitely like the jodo shinshu temple's warrior monk garrison. I do agree that defending sieges with a level 3 fort is great. Particularly Kaga with the back door so you can run down the generals. But that's the military prov- and a great bottleneck- so I always upgrade that province.
In my game I just took Owari and Oda stacked that place out. However the farm was barely upgraded, so it ended up sucking up some of my excess food. It'll be a great bottleneck for that region though. I plan on putting a temple in there as well. That's always one of my concerns late game in that sometimes you'll be taking over forts that the ai has upgraded but with crappy farms. On one hand there's less reason to make room for markets- so there's that. On the other hand, the Ikko struggle with money once RD hits, and markets give some money without much downside. At this point I haven't actually built any myself. I just inherit ones occasionally.
Ikko is definitely a fun campaign. I'm already past the realm divide penalties. I just have to revassal a couple who turned on me- the rest are fixed or new. Good luck with your game!
Nice
the problem with the strategy is in legendary difficult the ai always destroy merchant guild or rice exchange and replace it with yari drill yard or archery range pro player usually only build rice exchange or merchant guild in province that already has sword school or any other unit training facility
Hey thanks for the comment. I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to- making vassals? Not upgrading market chain buildings? Focusing military in military provs? Can you be more specific?
@@GameMnke what i mean is pro player not upgrade castle or make special province for training unit especially if you use mod to make ai only training katana samurai instead of yari samurai
@@GameMnke usually on real legendary difficult with mod ai you will never win decisive victory or heroic victory the enemy ai daimyo only move with 40 army and its un defeated army because full katana samurai match lock and yari cavalry and the enemy raid squad always destroy market or rice exchange even destroy farm
@@GameMnke basically pro player saving the money and play defensive they make lot of sword school in almost every province then when 2 stack of un defeated enemy daimyo army come with 25 katana samurai 10 naginata and 10 yari cavalry you play defensive sabotage army and defend castle
@@GameMnke believe me standard legendary difficult is very easy for anyone play this game 10 years we install mod to make enemy ai only move with 40 unit army full of katana and naginata samurai and yari cavalry
I think mostly everybody are going to play with mods installed, so some advice is null.
Look, I appreciate the feedback. If you'd like me to give a strategic breakdown of a specific mod/modpack, maybe suggest one and if I like it, maybe I'll do that.
Otherwise, I'm not sure what you want me to do with your feedback. There is no specific chapter you can point to that is, or even might be, "null advice" because it totally depends on what mods someone is using- agreed? If you're just doing the bug fixes like I am (oda umbrella, kisho ninja, etc), then it's all applicable. If you just mod to make boats cheaper, maybe only that element changes.
If, however, you're playing with total conversions/overhauls (MoSS, Radious) then CLEARLY there are going to be many elements that have to be adapted- just like how not all of the strategy is wholecloth applicable to RotS or FotS (or WH3). Because it's not an identical game at that point. I don't think it's incumbent upon me to make such a disclaimer though- because it's obvious. I don't find myself compelled to post on MoSS videos "hey this doesn't work like that in vanilla- null advice!". ;)
More importantly... I think there is HUGE value in the core/default/vanilla game and understanding the default mechanics. If all you play is a mod, without understanding what the mod is changing, then you really don't have a basis of comparison for anything in Shogun 2 because you can't speak to what things were to recognize what is different. In that regard when you look at the core strategy I present and you note "hey my mod does this different", you now know something more than you did before. And then you can make a value judgement- do you like the change? Do you find the change necessary to your enjoyment? Etc.
That's the best I can do with what you gave me. If you shared "hey I play with mod X and this is different in Y way", then we could have a more substantive exchange over a specific issue. I'll point out, for example, that one of the big economic "features" of Shogun 2 is, I feel, badly implemented. It's how rice fields and market chain buildings work. RotS and FotS addressed this. I love Shogun 2, but it's one of the biggest flaws- err... features.
I still like to play the game with this "feature" because if you're talking to people and they are asking questions about vanilla play (which happens plenty on reddit), if you're not able to speak to vanilla play/strategy, then really... what good is the advice you're giving? You might struggle to tell someone the benefits of vassals or how to use a matchlock if your only context is playing with mods.
So that's what I have to say about that. Have fun!