One of the themes in Catcher is that Holden Caulfield was a traumatised boy. Like Danny. Holdens trauma stemmed from his brothers death as a child. His parents who were grieving did not have time or energy to look after Holden. He started to look after himself , being overly independent, and finding it extremely difficult to ask adults for help. He even shies away from tender contact with an old teacher (who genuinely cared for him and had sympathy) and does not understand what the teacher was doing and interprets it as a sexual pass. Anyway I wonder if Danny felt the same, that no adults around him were able truly to care for him. His fathers violence and his mothers complete denial of that violence. Danny has only an “imaginary friend” to talk to who, to be honest was really very helpful! Danny really only had himself just like Holden. Poor kids, bless them ❤
Thanks. I'm not sure about the Teacher scene. I have a problem with some of Holden's lies. For example, Holden says he looks old for his age and sure enough people treat him like a kid. The teacher scene implies that Holden was a victim of sexual abuse, but Holden seeks out for a prostitute. Although his actions with the prostitute seems like he has no sexual experience at all. He seemed to have issues with his brother's death, it also seems that Holden is telling us the story as if he's in an asylum.
@@tankardoftales4645 it’s not a coherently written book that’s for sure. It’s interesting with stream of consciousness narratives, are they accurate? What or who can you trust? It’s a perception really , and a perception is like a wall between you and the truth. Maybe that’s why it works so well, I’ve read it a few times and always find something new. ❤️
@@lindasemple4687 This is why I believe Catcher in the Rye was shown in the Shining, it's to tell the audience that we are looking at a story being told by an unreliable narrator. I just watched "Hour of the Wolf" (1968) 2 times and I'll most likely do it a few more times. Hour of the Wolf is a story being told by an unreliable narrator. And it looks like Stanley Kubrick and David Lynch both filmmakers referenced Hour of the Wolf in their films. You can see a good chunk of Eraserhead in the movie, but a few scenes (Jack holding his face in the goldroom and the Lady with the hat and her movement between cuts) but I'm also getting Eyes Wide Shut vibes in that movie too. LOL
I'm an English professor, so take this with a grain of salt ... but The Catcher in the Rye has a pretty overt theme of sexual abuse. Holden has been abused at some point (notice his encounter with Spencer, his description of his parents, Mr. Antolini's actions in Chapters 24, etc). He's a faller that is in desperate need of being caught, despite his own belief that he's actually a catcher himself. Danny Torrence has also been sexually abused by Jack (notice the bruises on his neck, how Wendy/the female doctor dance around the issue, the fatherly love scene in the Torrence's bedroom, Danny sucking his thumb right after that scene, etc). So, there is a direct connection between Holden and Danny ... and whether Wendy knows it or not, she's trying to understand it.
It's believed that Danny was sexually abused... By Wendy or Jack (We don't know for sure). I know most people like to believe Jack abused Danny but throughout the movie Wendy has a desire of younger boys and she spends the most time with Danny. Danny was calling for his mother in 237. As for Holden, there is some questions on his "abuse" and his desire for looking for sex. I believe that the story is an Unreliable Narrator and it seemed that at the end of the story Holden is going to an Asylum (or such). Holden does say he's looks old for his age but when he asks for alcohol he's denied. So it's hard to say if Holden was sexually abused but it seemed that he had issues with the death of his brother. I believe J.D. Salinger was going thru PTSD while he was finishing up Catcher (I think he started writing the book while he was in combat). I think the PTSD issues were inserted in the book. I only read the book one time and it was before I did the video and I found more stuff about the Shining after I posted the video. My feeling is Catcher in the Rye was introduced early in the movie to suggest that the story we are about to watch is being told by an Unreliable Narrator. The Narrator is the cinematography. The background & scenes, the characters actions, and even the dialog are all parts of a big lie. What is the truth and what is the lie is forever open for debate because Stanley Kubrick removed the ending (Wendy in the hospital).
The Catcher in the Rye is a story on a young man having problems trasitioning to adulthood, so the most probable interpretation is that this relates somehow to Wendy's worring for Danny or, most probably, for Jack himself (Danny being much younger than Holden and Jack indeed being a reluctant father). Anyways, since all assassinations and attempts ralating to the book are posterior to the The Shining film production and even conclusion in 1980, these theories go down the drain. Wendy herself refuses to take an adult attitude to leave Jack and protect Danny (she covers up Jack's faults and tries to adapt to him), only in the hotel will she be compelled to leave her passive behavior and confront Jack. So she is also a candidate for being an Holden Caulfield.
If you take the book based on the context of Holden Caulfield... Although Holden said, he's a great liar... Catcher in the Rye is often called "The ultimate unreliable narrator" that because Holden could be telling the story while in an asylum (or such). And Stanley Kubrick's The Shining is also being told by an unreliable narrator... The reason for the dog-eared fold, it's a symbol of a type of monster that are often known as a Book Killers. The Dog-Eared fold were frowned upon for centuries because the cost of making books (like +200 years ago) and the fold becomes a permanent marking and it also destroys the book. This is why old books comes with a ribbon for a bookmark. We currently don't see it that way because books are inexpensive. Very interesting when you look up the history of the Dog-eared fold.
@@tankardoftales4645 all you have in CITR is Holden narrative, there is no other source outside it. You can only interpret on the character narrative. Only Caulfield can contradict himself inside the story. As for The Shining, the film is a third person narrative of scenes sequences without a narrator. I suggest you read Umberto Eco semiotics books.
@@saulorocha3755 >All you have in CITR is Holden narrative, there is no other source outside it. You can only interpret on the character narrative. Only Caulfield can contradict himself inside the story. If you take the story based on Holden, the way he’s talks down towards people and demands for their help while calling them fake - he’s a narcissist. But Holden tells us he's a liar. Don’t believe my words here: >Holden Caulfield not only lies to the people he interacts with throughout the story, but also continually lies to the audience as an unreliable narrator. At the beginning of the story, Holden even mentions that he is the "most terrific liar you ever saw in your life" and proceeds to lie throughout the remainder of the story. Holden lies about his appearance to the audience by saying that he looks significantly older than he really is. However, Holden cannot get served alcohol at several establishments, and the girls at the Lavender Room make fun of him for his youthful appearance. Holden also claims that he hates the movies and America's entertainment industry, yet goes to see them often, pretends that he is in an action movie, and even takes Sally Hayes on a date to the theater. www.enotes.com/homework-help/how-is-holden-a-liar-in-j-d-salinger-s-the-684398 >As for The Shining, the film is a third person narrative of scenes sequences without a narrator. I suggest you read Umberto Eco semiotics books. Actually, the narrator is the cinematography. It becomes unreliable because the oddities in the movie. Most common is the “Continuity Errors” but we also notice other oddities like “unplugged but working TV and Lights”, Wendy and then later Jack telling the story how long-ago Danny was injured, Impossible Windows (not just Ullman’s office) and Impossible Doors (many doors make no sense). The size of the kitchen compared to the size of the parking lot. The maze (from Jacks Tie to when we see the maze for the first time)… And the list can go on… This is not the first time in film history this was done. Persona (1966) was also told by an unreliable narrator (and most likely Stanley Kubrick barrowed the TV idea from that movie and used it in the Shining). It’s common for movies with Unreliable Narrators to have an ending with some sort of closure that tells the audience the story was a lie, but Stanley took out his ending (the one that Wendy is in the hospital and Ullman saying no damage was done and Jack was not found [if he's frozen in the maze how it's hard to find him] - which would tell us that we were watching a dream.) Why Stanley removed the ending, (we don’t have an actual answer) but I’m thinking he wanted the movie to be more open for interpretation. Like Eraserhead.
@@tankardoftales4645 Wendy's reading a paperback. I heard as a kid that paperbacks were invented with the idea that people would read them and then throw them away. I don't know if that was ever true. However, I'm pretty sure by 1980 nobody cared what Wendy did with her own paperbacks. They just remembered being told as kids, don't ever treat a book that way.
@@tankardoftales4645 OK, I see what you are getting at. There was an old black and white episode of a TV show, I think, where you see an older woman being mistreated by people who are holding her captive in a house. The viewer totally sympathizes with the woman, but at the end we find out she is nuts and in an insane asylum. So yeah, Kubrick could have explained the movie, but he didn't, that is why I don't have patience for long explanations about light switches disappearing and so on. It's only a movie. A variation on a theme. He could have made the whole story Jack's book, or real ghosts, or any one of many plot twists.
Theres also the 'Catcher' word and 'Rye' -- Wendy is eating a sandwich of potentially 'Rye bread'. The 'catcher' is in the 'rye'. Is the catcher depicted in the rye bread theyre eating (a kind of subconscious metaphor / hint / suggestion of the killer ahead?). When you look at Danny eating the bread and he moves his hand -- from what i see there a face imprinted on the rye bread where his hand was. like an evil face --- and then when we cut back that part of the bread is being eaten in Danny's mouth (the face is gone) and thats when Danny's voice changes into the 'more evil sounding' voice of Tony --- and says more harshly 'I just dont!'. Tony is the 'little boy who lives in his mouth'. I think this is actually a red herring -- and what its really saying is that Tony is the catcher... not the evil guy but the one trying to contain / catch the evil in the film. I guess you could also say that Danny is the catcher in the end and he's eating Rye bread too. They both are eating Rye and they both catch him by working together in the end. The power of rye! This is subconscious message to eat healthily to keep your emotions in check / stable so you dont have huge mood swings. Rye bread keeps your energy stable over a longer period of time unlike sweets etc which spike your mood. Making you sounds crazy and having cravings at unexpected times. Eat healthy and your mood stabilises. Note how Jack eats greasy bacon and eggs for breakfast and thats the point where he starts to go crazy / emotionally unstable. Its also a reference to 'Rye' humour. Catching the 'rye' joke and when someone has that particular 'tone of voice'. When is harmful and intended to mock or when its just a harmless 'rye' joke. Is Tony the one who tells Danny when jokes are 'Rye' and catches it and tells Danny thats its ok not to be upset? He's the 'Catcher of Rye jokes' so Danny's sweet little innocent heart doesn't get hurt? In that scene where Jack, Wendy and Danny are driving in the car -- Jack makes a 'rye' joke and Wendy doesn't pick up that its just a joke and not intended to be harmful -- and Danny gets it. He knows its a joke and takes it as such .. he 'catches it' like theyre 'playing ball' and Danny 'catches it'. Its a kind of game we all play to bond and hav a little secret in joke going. A style of banter that Wendy's not picking up. 'Its ok Mom, I know all about cannibalism'. Tony picked up on the condescending / manipulative tone of Wendy's voice when she tried to talk down to Tony over that breakfast scene. Like she knew what was going to happen -- and Tony in Dannys mouth told him to be assertive with her. Dont allow her to talk down to him (and therefore Danny) in the process. Tony is catching her manipulative / hyperbolising fantasies of her own powers of 'knowing' or her ability to 'shine'. She's not good at it (as evidences about how much a nightmare the trip actually was compared to her imagined version). Youll notice that Danny is the one actually acting as a role model for Wendy as he is eating (instead of fantasising) at the breakfast table. Then she subconsciously picks up on his pattenr of eating and then she follows and picks up the bread and starts eating. After that she is fully present to the moment (and with Danny / present company). He brought her out of her 'fantasy / dream state' and back to reality by asking her a question -- that demanded her to pay attention and be present. He caught her out being distracted and got her to 'wakeup' to the moment. Seriousness of the trip they were about to make. A serious issue / concern of her son being lonely -- and she just dismissed it by 'playing a silly character' to get out of acknowledging that issue and changing plans accordingly. - maybe could have chosen somewhere more suitable for a lonely kid.
I like it.... Very well thought out. What would the dog-ear fold mean in this sense? Wendy is showing us the dog-ear fold for almost 10 seconds, there is something about it. The best meaning, I can come up with is book killer (based on how dog-eared folds in books were frowned upon in libraries, schools and serious readers.) it also could say other things about Wendy (such as uneducated, rebel or lazy) or maybe it's the passage in the book...
I appreciate that you tried to find out the source for the "Oswald had the Catcher in the Rye" story . I was into the Kennedy assassination for a couple of years. I tried to read all the oldest books, I did not pay much attention to the modern ones - just read them for fun as the library got rid of the old books and replaced them with modern ones. I think this detail of Oswald owning Catcher in the Rye is a recent invention, as you say. A few books were mentioned among Oswald's possessions in some books, but I never saw that one mentioned, ever. I liked the "Catcher in the Shining" video that Shining Insights did very much. In my experience, Catcher in the Rye was promoted as a great American novel for everyone to read by the mainstream media, and it was taught in school as literature. It was controversial for being vulgar and having crude language. The parents did not see the value of it. Chapman did not give the book a bad reputation, but Hinckley did. People immediately noticed the connection and thought it was weird two assassins would have that book. It was odd. Oswald was not in the story, at that time.
This is the most annoying thing about the dog-eared fold. There are several internet blogs referring Catcher in the Rye and the Dog-eared fold to Oswald, but when you start digging for the source, none found. One of the reasons I posted the video with the hopes that someone knew something about the dog-eared fold, Catcher in the Rye and Oswald.
@@tankardoftales4645 What is the Dog Eared Fold supposed to mean? All it meant to me is that everyone was taught not to do that to books and Wendy broke the rule.
This happens alot -- a certain narrative gets repeated long enough, and after a while (hopefully), someone comes along and asks "Wait a sec...where/when did this narrative even begin?" Comes up a lot in history of philosophy and religion, which are areas i tend to focus on. I think it's good that you're pointing this out
The title of the novel "THE CATCHER IN THE RYE" is a reference to something Holden Caulfield says to the person (i.e. a psychiatrist?) interviewing him: he wants to protect little children who might accidentally chase after a ball about to roll over a cliff. Think of Danny playing with his toys . . . until Jack's tennis ball rolls into them, the prelude to a scene of trauma that Danny will soon undergo. In chapter 22 of RYE, page 173, Holden -- talking with his sister Phoebe -- misquotes a line from a poem by Robert Burns, the original of which reads: "If a body meet a body coming through the rye" -- with Holden having thought it read "If a body catch a body comin' through the rye" . . . and then he tells her, ". . . I keep picturing all these little kids playing some game in this big field of rye and all. Thousands of little kids, and nobody's around--nobody big I mean--except me. And I'm standing on the edge of some crazy cliff. What I have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff--I mean if they're running and they don't look where they're going I have to come out from somewhere and CATCH them. That's all I'd do all day. I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all. I know it's crazy, but that's the only thing I'd really like to be. I know it's crazy." The next paragraph is telling as to why Kubrick would have Wendy reading this book: Old Phoebe didn't say anything for a long time. Then, when she said something, all she said was, "Daddy's going to kill you," One other thing, just an odd hunch. The name of the narrator of RYE -- Holden Caulfield -- includes the word 'CAUL', which means "the membrane surrounding the amniotic fluid, a part of which sometimes covers a baby's head when it is born" . . . and I seem to recall that somewhere in the novel "THE SHINING" there's a reference to Danny having had a caul covering his face when he was born -- which, according to folklore, was a sign that the child would have 'special' powers, like Danny manifests later, his 'Tony' persona showing him glimpses of the Future and the Past, that sort of thing. Assuming I'm right about Danny having had a caul, I can imagine Kubrick reading that and immediately remembering the name "Holden CAULfield" from THE CATCHER IN THE RYE, and that being enough to warrant having Wendy reading it in his movie version of King's novel. After all, 'Tony' is Daniel Anthony Torrance's FUTURE SELF somehow communicating across Time to help his own vulnerable child-self get through the horrors of the Overlook Hotel . . . acting as the 'catcher in the rye' who wants to save vulnerable children who don't realize how dangerous it is, playing so near a "crazy cliff."
The Shining Insights TH-cam video makes a good argument that the Shining (Stanley Kubrick movie) is a offbeat part 2 to Catcher in the Rye... th-cam.com/video/FhqId7IIn74/w-d-xo.html I'm not 100% agreeing this but it's interesting (all the videos are a must watch, it covers a lot of stuff that Rob Ager never talked about or knew). I still believe there has to be something about Dog-eared Fold reference with Catcher because the Shining was made before John Lennon was kill and too many second hand references in the 2000s suggests Dog-eared Fold reference to JFK and nobody is taking about Wendy is crazy at the time. But I cannot find the source of the reference and cannot find Oswald owning Catcher. As for Holden. I'm not sure he wants to protect children as he claims. I feel that's himself convincing himself as a better person then most people. But he's not.
I grew up in the sixties and seventies, read everything I could get my hands on, and that was a common remark I would see - he was born with a caul, and this has a folklore meaning of special powers. I think you could be right about the name being a signal. I wonder if anyone ever got it before? I consider ball games in movies part of the Alice in Wonderland formula, as every thing leads up to playing croquet with the Queen, but nobody can beat the Queen because she keeps changing the rules, and if you do too well, she will kill you. This is no joke. It is the power structure defending itself. It is cancel culture. It is people making "kill switch" videos. In the Disney cartoon, Alice makes a good shot in the game and gets put on trial, she runs through a maze trying to escape and finally wakes up from her dream as the whole cast is closing in on her to harm her. I never appreciated this symbol of a field of kids falling over cliffs in Catcher in the Rye, but now I think that it seems very mind blowing. It kind of leads into the CIA mind control conspiracies theories. If Holden was targeted by the CIA for his"special powers", they have been doing something to him that makes him go crazy, now they are through with him, he half knows what happened and wants to save other kids who will be targeted. Like kids targeted to become Manchurian candidate assassins. OK, I don't condone these CIA theories, but this all just came to me while I was trying to comment on cauls and ball games.
The Catcher in the Rye is about a man in a mental institution relating a story about his past. If you know of the deleted ending of The Shining then you know that Wendy is in a hospital (mental hospital) in a room with a cop guarding the door, when Ullman goes to tell her that the police found nothing unusual at the Resort and that the police are going to allow her to go home. AKA she made it up in her head. There was no Jack. Jack is never even mentioned in the deleted ending.
Did you check the videos posted by Shining Insights. There seem to be a good number of references to insane asylum or mental hospital. th-cam.com/channels/TWE9JN6tPbmJKZGePNI3iQ.html
I follow the Object of Art and have seen you in the comments. I’m just finishing up my reading of this book, so I will save your video (and Bazed Lit. Analyzer’s livestream) for when I am done.
John Lennon is the inspiration for Stephen King's use of the shine metaphor. . THE SHiNiNG (Instant Karma!). Kubrick's film is released 199 days before Lennon dies, just as Nelson Mandela is born on the 199th day of the year. BTW, Paul McCartney (or his lookalike) sings the "Live and Let Die" song ( Oswald's reading list). Barry Nelson is the esoteric first James Bond. The exoteric first James Bond has a day 237 birthday, Sean Connery, August 25th. Barry Nelson was born the day Lenin arrived at the Finland Station in a sealed train car to kick off the Russian revolution at the behest of the German secret police. The Beatles were tasked with starting a cultural revolution. Stuart Ullman has no business telling Jack about the murders in the hotel. Kubrick very much wants his rabbit hole followers to understand the two cut minutes - where it's understood that Ullman is taking Wendy and Danny back with him to California as his prize. My theory is that Kubrick was part of a cabal who had somehow created a way to manipulate time, & it was his mission (like half of Hollywood) to code that new paradigm (of out of control paradox) into the subconscious of the world. . . Arthur C Clarke's Third Law seems to have been proven very quickly. Clarke, by the way, dies 237 days after Kubrick would have turned 79. . . (3x79) . . The Catcher in the Rye is an 18 year synch with the launch of Apollo 11- Danny's sweater . . July 16, 1951. . July 16, 1969. See, they fooled everyone that the future was about space and not time. . . hard to sell that premise, if you think about it
And factor in that Eraserhead was a huge influence... you are right that it's all somehow linked. I saw 5 soures that shows Oswald owned "Live and Let Die" I failed to mention in the video because I found this after I made the video... Oswald owns 18 to 19 books listed as Russian Books. Oddly no other information about these books. It could be possible that Oswald owned a Russian copy of Catcher in the Rye. I guess I'll be digging deeper in the rabbit hole.
I think that the fact that Kubrick purposely had Wendy reading The Catcher in the Rye book proves what i have been thinking about for a long time: ie. Kubrick purposely has Wendy as sort of this "goofy" submissive innocuous wife in the film but I think that she serves as an active participant to the overall hidden narrative. Her overly protective doting of Danny seems to be hiding an implicit role that Wendy is playing to the overall family dysfunction. I felt that the way Jack mentions Wendy as a "horror fan" during his interview was such an odd and out of place statement.
After I found out about the grudge S. King had against Stanley. I thought maybe the horror fan comment was a crack aimed at King. Wendy, an example of a pathetic loser sitting in her miserable apartment reading horror books to escape her dismal life. Your biggest fan, S. King.
I also found another article but I seemed to have lost it with a photo of David Koresh with a copy of the book of apparently the same printing with a red cover.
Watch The Shining Code 2.0 on you tube. In that, the catcher in the rye is autobiographical to Kubrick and his supposed involvement in shooting fake moon landing footage from NASA and getting total artistic control over his movies as a result of this deal.
Thanks it's an interesting video. I sort of forgot about Diamonds are Forever, but I assuming they were filming a test video or maybe a commercial. I would not be surprised if Kubrick put Apollo 11 references in the movie (to hint about the cold war or the moon landing itself [fake or real] fun Easter eggs). I don't think Kubrick faked the moon landing. Few factors to list: 1... This was during the Cold War. Russia would be pleased to learn the moon landing was fake. 2... Kubrick wanted to make the Napoleonic War movie during that time. If he faked the moon landing for whatever he wanted, he would get the budget to make the movie. 3... Kubrick was very famous before the moon landing and alive afterwards. If the government wanted this project done in secret Kubrick would be dead before 1969.
Originally I thought that too. But the production was wrapping up before the Jonestown incident. But the Kool-aid is referring to something earlier. The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Electric_Kool-Aid_Acid_Test
@@TroyPacelli You should check out Miss M page www.youtube.com/@theobjectofart We've been kind of uncovering many hidden and overlooked (pun intended) references in the Shining.
The word kill is mentioned around 500 times in the book because Holden keeps saying it killed me ie to drop the word kill in there. Moreover, he uses the expression shooting the bull 3 times etc the brutality of the language is out of this world and it is definitely intentional
@@tankardoftales4645 Yeah I don't mean to be rude but the problem here is not whether Osvald owned a copy of the book but the horror story is in the language itself of Catcher not the story. The brutality and horror of the language. Anyway, I like your video I just think whether Osvald bla bla is a diversion from the horrible truth
@@tankardoftales4645 Fx when Holden talks of whistling he throws in words like slaughter and he calls himself a rapid packer which sounds like a machine gun. Sorry English is not my first language
@@tankardoftales4645 As for Wendy reading Catcher I think that was in the original King story although King is obviously too much of a noob to understand Catcher and so is the patsy whom they said shot Lennon fx Larry King said Holden was not violent and then he says Holden imagined shooting someone. That is a weak understanding of the book. Salinger has written from 1965 to 2010 without us seeing a single word yet
@@stevencampbell7473 I knew I'll smack myself on the forehead for that... thanks. New York, yeah I remember reading something about that and he had trouble in school. I kept digging and hoping there was something with his childhood and Catcher in the Rye and not finding it.
@@tankardoftales4645 My theory about a theory. Say the CIA had people planted at libraries in certain cities. They could get the plant to tell them which kids were checking out Catcher in the Rye repeatedly. These are the kids they would evaluate to use for their political plots when they needed a lone nut patsy or similar activities. Oswald actually came under evaluation by a top NYC psych. doctor when he was living there as a teen. He and his mom fled the city when they wanted to send Oswald to a farm to be slave labor, the judge made money on every kid he sent to this institution. That is what Oswald's mother said, anyway. She had a New York lawyer, Mark Lane, working with her. Whether Lane was exploiting a mentally ill woman or she was demonized by the media because she was a truther girl is hard to say. Lane later ended up with the Jim Jones cult, but he said they tried to kill him.
@@hermanhale9258 very interesting theory. I think there a lot of questionable stuff about Oswald. The huge one is him deflecting to the USSR and returns back to the USA with a Russian Wife. I do believe 99.9% of all Catcher in the Rye conspiracy theory come from after the failed President Reagan assassination attempt. The .01% I could find was a joke in the 1970s newspaper, I believe was making fun of the religions groups for banning (or trying to ban) Catcher in the Rye for offensive language in a book for teens. I think Catcher shouldn't be market as a teen book. I do think the CIA was tracking Mein Kampf. Oswald was found with a copy of Mein Kampf.
It's been awhile when I saw the video by "Shining Insights" I believe the page and the book printing was shown on the video. I'll check it later today (sorry I have issues posting links - TH-cam deletes the replies) According to Shining Insights. The Shining is part 2 to Catcher in the Rye.
Catcher In The Rye fell victim to moral outrage as soon as it was released in the mid-late 1940s. I’m sure an early 20s Kubrick (and fellow NYC native to JD Salinger) remembered this. Yes, you will find written references to the book being actively censored from 1960 onward, but prior to that, it was not a book average American parents of the time thought appropriate for high school aged youths to be exposed to (even in fiction), despite the fact the book essentially had universal acclaim to that point. I don’t think the fact The Shining was filmed before the more modern high profile instances of the Salinger book (Reagan, Lennon, etc.) being used by the media to drum up moral fear in uptight middle-Americans should keep us from looking into the book being used in the context of the Wendy Theory, however. Holden Caulfield, much like Wendy, is /not/ a reliable storyteller. I’d have to read Catcher In The Rye again, but I could probably come up with some correlation with the misdirected protectionism of Wendy and Danny being analogous to Holden and Phoebe. Also, the story arc of Wendy’s “illness” (in the Wendy Theory) being similar to that of Holden’s by the end of the novel; especially taking into account the deleted hospital room scene at the end of The Shining, but I digress... I’m most interested in finding out what page of Catcher In The Rye that Kubrick decided to “dog-ear”. Someone’s going to have to hunt down Wendy’s specific edition of the novel and match up the paragraph alignment to the book on the screen.
@@tankardoftales4645 Yes an unpublished short story. My research shows Catcher was a kind of delivery job from the cultural authorities who asked him to put in a lot of violence and brutality in the book propably to stimulate the reader/listener so he did that
@@theantinatalismzone392 I'm finding out that Catcher is the ultimate unreliable narrator. Which could make sense why Wendy is reading Catcher in the Rye, the Shining seem to be the ultimate unreliable narrator movie (mind fuck movie). I still don't understand why I'm finding reference of Oswald owning Catcher in the Rye and the reference of a dog-eared fold makes the book an important find, while my exhausting research I find Oswald not owning such book and the only thing I can find a catcher book with a dog-eared fold (that predates John Lennon murder) is Wendy in the Shining. Very odd. It's odd how he reference that part in Catcher in the Rye, almost like the book was an expanded version of the short story.
@@tankardoftales4645 Yeah when Kubrick did the sitting on the bomb in Strangelove that is from Catcher as well. On the other hand, King made the ludicrous remark that Salinger/Holden would like the freedom of the hippies
@@tankardoftales4645 Well I think it was some ideas he had for a while but since we know he was an agent it is not strange he would obey others when they asked him to and Catcher is definitely written on behalf of the cultural authorities
I don't think Kool-Aid had much of a bad reputation when the movie came out. Kool-Aid was considered all American, mostly from its ads on TV, which made it look like something a wonderful mom served to her wonderful kids and their friends. Kubrick and his kids had spent time in New York when he was working on the story for Space Odyssey. I think SK would have been well aware of the Johnny Carson show and Kool-Aid commercials, if he watched any TV. The Kool-Aid MIGHT have had a meaning that Wendy was trying to buy a happy, normal American life-style when she bought Kool-Aid. It might have also had a meaning that she shouldn't be serving her kid that stuff, and even that she was making him sick by serving him sugar and food dyes. I'm not sure in what decade diet concerns became so important. 1980 might have been a little too early for that.
I think 8 months ago I figured Kool-aid was referring to - The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test. The 1960s is way before my time and the The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test was huge.
@@tankardoftales4645 Yeah, I have that book. I didn't want to go there. I don't think the audience went there at the time. But myself, I did wonder why Wendy had two big cans of Kool-aid. My mother bought one big can at a time, and we had seven kids. She also bought the envelopes of Kool-aid, like most people.
@@tankardoftales4645 Yeah, the acid tests were in the papers, but most people didn't use LSD that much. Considering the Indian motif in the Shining, you might think some other drugs would have made it into the story.
Old Speckled Hen, Leffe (dark), Abbey /Trippel Ale, Piiraat Ale (those are my favorites). The special Reserve Piraat is awesome, hard to find. There are a few other European styles I could of had.
This Wendy Theory is a crock of shit. Have any of you even read The Catcher in the Rey? What is it about? Its theme and plot theme? And what does that have to do with the theme and plot theme of The Shining?
![งมหอย จับปลา มือเปล่า หาอยู่หากินแบบวีถีอีสานกับแก๊งเซียนหรั่ง ม่วนคัก! [ขอนแก่น] @Sianstudio](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/JEJZg6N-AbU/mqdefault.jpg)
One of the themes in Catcher is that Holden Caulfield was a traumatised boy. Like Danny. Holdens trauma stemmed from his brothers death as a child. His parents who were grieving did not have time or energy to look after Holden.
He started to look after himself , being overly independent, and finding it extremely difficult to ask adults for help. He even shies away from tender contact with an old teacher (who genuinely cared for him and had sympathy) and does not understand what the teacher was doing and interprets it as a sexual pass.
Anyway I wonder if Danny felt the same, that no adults around him were able truly to care for him. His fathers violence and his mothers complete denial of that violence. Danny has only an “imaginary friend” to talk to who, to be honest was really very helpful!
Danny really only had himself just like Holden. Poor kids, bless them ❤
Thanks. I'm not sure about the Teacher scene. I have a problem with some of Holden's lies. For example, Holden says he looks old for his age and sure enough people treat him like a kid.
The teacher scene implies that Holden was a victim of sexual abuse, but Holden seeks out for a prostitute. Although his actions with the prostitute seems like he has no sexual experience at all.
He seemed to have issues with his brother's death, it also seems that Holden is telling us the story as if he's in an asylum.
@@tankardoftales4645 it’s not a coherently written book that’s for sure. It’s interesting with stream of consciousness narratives, are they accurate? What or who can you trust? It’s a perception really , and a perception is like a wall between you and the truth. Maybe that’s why it works so well, I’ve read it a few times and always find something new. ❤️
@@lindasemple4687 This is why I believe Catcher in the Rye was shown in the Shining, it's to tell the audience that we are looking at a story being told by an unreliable narrator.
I just watched "Hour of the Wolf" (1968) 2 times and I'll most likely do it a few more times.
Hour of the Wolf is a story being told by an unreliable narrator. And it looks like Stanley Kubrick and David Lynch both filmmakers referenced Hour of the Wolf in their films. You can see a good chunk of Eraserhead in the movie, but a few scenes (Jack holding his face in the goldroom and the Lady with the hat and her movement between cuts) but I'm also getting Eyes Wide Shut vibes in that movie too. LOL
I'm an English professor, so take this with a grain of salt ... but The Catcher in the Rye has a pretty overt theme of sexual abuse. Holden has been abused at some point (notice his encounter with Spencer, his description of his parents, Mr. Antolini's actions in Chapters 24, etc). He's a faller that is in desperate need of being caught, despite his own belief that he's actually a catcher himself.
Danny Torrence has also been sexually abused by Jack (notice the bruises on his neck, how Wendy/the female doctor dance around the issue, the fatherly love scene in the Torrence's bedroom, Danny sucking his thumb right after that scene, etc).
So, there is a direct connection between Holden and Danny ... and whether Wendy knows it or not, she's trying to understand it.
It's believed that Danny was sexually abused... By Wendy or Jack (We don't know for sure). I know most people like to believe Jack abused Danny but throughout the movie Wendy has a desire of younger boys and she spends the most time with Danny. Danny was calling for his mother in 237.
As for Holden, there is some questions on his "abuse" and his desire for looking for sex.
I believe that the story is an Unreliable Narrator and it seemed that at the end of the story Holden is going to an Asylum (or such). Holden does say he's looks old for his age but when he asks for alcohol he's denied. So it's hard to say if Holden was sexually abused but it seemed that he had issues with the death of his brother.
I believe J.D. Salinger was going thru PTSD while he was finishing up Catcher (I think he started writing the book while he was in combat). I think the PTSD issues were inserted in the book.
I only read the book one time and it was before I did the video and I found more stuff about the Shining after I posted the video.
My feeling is Catcher in the Rye was introduced early in the movie to suggest that the story we are about to watch is being told by an Unreliable Narrator. The Narrator is the cinematography. The background & scenes, the characters actions, and even the dialog are all parts of a big lie.
What is the truth and what is the lie is forever open for debate because Stanley Kubrick removed the ending (Wendy in the hospital).
The Catcher in the Rye is a story on a young man having problems trasitioning to adulthood, so the most probable interpretation is that this relates somehow to Wendy's worring for Danny or, most probably, for Jack himself (Danny being much younger than Holden and Jack indeed being a reluctant father). Anyways, since all assassinations and attempts ralating to the book are posterior to the The Shining film production and even conclusion in 1980, these theories go down the drain.
Wendy herself refuses to take an adult attitude to leave Jack and protect Danny (she covers up Jack's faults and tries to adapt to him), only in the hotel will she be compelled to leave her passive behavior and confront Jack. So she is also a candidate for being an Holden Caulfield.
If you take the book based on the context of Holden Caulfield...
Although Holden said, he's a great liar...
Catcher in the Rye is often called "The ultimate unreliable narrator" that because Holden could be telling the story while in an asylum (or such). And Stanley Kubrick's The Shining is also being told by an unreliable narrator...
The reason for the dog-eared fold, it's a symbol of a type of monster that are often known as a Book Killers. The Dog-Eared fold were frowned upon for centuries because the cost of making books (like +200 years ago) and the fold becomes a permanent marking and it also destroys the book. This is why old books comes with a ribbon for a bookmark. We currently don't see it that way because books are inexpensive. Very interesting when you look up the history of the Dog-eared fold.
@@tankardoftales4645 all you have in CITR is Holden narrative, there is no other source outside it. You can only interpret on the character narrative. Only Caulfield can contradict himself inside the story.
As for The Shining, the film is a third person narrative of scenes sequences without a narrator.
I suggest you read Umberto Eco semiotics books.
@@saulorocha3755
>All you have in CITR is Holden narrative, there is no other source outside it. You can only interpret on the character narrative. Only Caulfield can contradict himself inside the story.
If you take the story based on Holden, the way he’s talks down towards people and demands for their help while calling them fake - he’s a narcissist.
But Holden tells us he's a liar.
Don’t believe my words here:
>Holden Caulfield not only lies to the people he interacts with throughout the story, but also continually lies to the audience as an unreliable narrator. At the beginning of the story, Holden even mentions that he is the "most terrific liar you ever saw in your life" and proceeds to lie throughout the remainder of the story. Holden lies about his appearance to the audience by saying that he looks significantly older than he really is. However, Holden cannot get served alcohol at several establishments, and the girls at the Lavender Room make fun of him for his youthful appearance. Holden also claims that he hates the movies and America's entertainment industry, yet goes to see them often, pretends that he is in an action movie, and even takes Sally Hayes on a date to the theater.
www.enotes.com/homework-help/how-is-holden-a-liar-in-j-d-salinger-s-the-684398
>As for The Shining, the film is a third person narrative of scenes sequences without a narrator. I suggest you read Umberto Eco semiotics books.
Actually, the narrator is the cinematography. It becomes unreliable because the oddities in the movie. Most common is the “Continuity Errors” but we also notice other oddities like “unplugged but working TV and Lights”, Wendy and then later Jack telling the story how long-ago Danny was injured, Impossible Windows (not just Ullman’s office) and Impossible Doors (many doors make no sense). The size of the kitchen compared to the size of the parking lot. The maze (from Jacks Tie to when we see the maze for the first time)… And the list can go on…
This is not the first time in film history this was done. Persona (1966) was also told by an unreliable narrator (and most likely Stanley Kubrick barrowed the TV idea from that movie and used it in the Shining).
It’s common for movies with Unreliable Narrators to have an ending with some sort of closure that tells the audience the story was a lie, but Stanley took out his ending (the one that Wendy is in the hospital and Ullman saying no damage was done and Jack was not found [if he's frozen in the maze how it's hard to find him] - which would tell us that we were watching a dream.) Why Stanley removed the ending, (we don’t have an actual answer) but I’m thinking he wanted the movie to be more open for interpretation. Like Eraserhead.
@@tankardoftales4645 Wendy's reading a paperback. I heard as a kid that paperbacks were invented with the idea that people would read them and then throw them away. I don't know if that was ever true. However, I'm pretty sure by 1980 nobody cared what Wendy did with her own paperbacks. They just remembered being told as kids, don't ever treat a book that way.
@@tankardoftales4645 OK, I see what you are getting at. There was an old black and white episode of a TV show, I think, where you see an older woman being mistreated by people who are holding her captive in a house. The viewer totally sympathizes with the woman, but at the end we find out she is nuts and in an insane asylum. So yeah, Kubrick could have explained the movie, but he didn't, that is why I don't have patience for long explanations about light switches disappearing and so on. It's only a movie. A variation on a theme. He could have made the whole story Jack's book, or real ghosts, or any one of many plot twists.
I sure hope that you take it vantage of that great beard and dress up as a wizard for Halloween🎃
Lol... I feel my beard is too short to look wizardry... might do that for Halloween 🎃
Theres also the 'Catcher' word and 'Rye' -- Wendy is eating a sandwich of potentially 'Rye bread'. The 'catcher' is in the 'rye'. Is the catcher depicted in the rye bread theyre eating (a kind of subconscious metaphor / hint / suggestion of the killer ahead?). When you look at Danny eating the bread and he moves his hand -- from what i see there a face imprinted on the rye bread where his hand was. like an evil face --- and then when we cut back that part of the bread is being eaten in Danny's mouth (the face is gone) and thats when Danny's voice changes into the 'more evil sounding' voice of Tony --- and says more harshly 'I just dont!'. Tony is the 'little boy who lives in his mouth'.
I think this is actually a red herring -- and what its really saying is that Tony is the catcher... not the evil guy but the one trying to contain / catch the evil in the film.
I guess you could also say that Danny is the catcher in the end and he's eating Rye bread too. They both are eating Rye and they both catch him by working together in the end. The power of rye! This is subconscious message to eat healthily to keep your emotions in check / stable so you dont have huge mood swings. Rye bread keeps your energy stable over a longer period of time unlike sweets etc which spike your mood. Making you sounds crazy and having cravings at unexpected times. Eat healthy and your mood stabilises. Note how Jack eats greasy bacon and eggs for breakfast and thats the point where he starts to go crazy / emotionally unstable.
Its also a reference to 'Rye' humour. Catching the 'rye' joke and when someone has that particular 'tone of voice'. When is harmful and intended to mock or when its just a harmless 'rye' joke. Is Tony the one who tells Danny when jokes are 'Rye' and catches it and tells Danny thats its ok not to be upset? He's the 'Catcher of Rye jokes' so Danny's sweet little innocent heart doesn't get hurt?
In that scene where Jack, Wendy and Danny are driving in the car -- Jack makes a 'rye' joke and Wendy doesn't pick up that its just a joke and not intended to be harmful -- and Danny gets it. He knows its a joke and takes it as such .. he 'catches it' like theyre 'playing ball' and Danny 'catches it'. Its a kind of game we all play to bond and hav a little secret in joke going. A style of banter that Wendy's not picking up. 'Its ok Mom, I know all about cannibalism'.
Tony picked up on the condescending / manipulative tone of Wendy's voice when she tried to talk down to Tony over that breakfast scene. Like she knew what was going to happen -- and Tony in Dannys mouth told him to be assertive with her. Dont allow her to talk down to him (and therefore Danny) in the process. Tony is catching her manipulative / hyperbolising fantasies of her own powers of 'knowing' or her ability to 'shine'. She's not good at it (as evidences about how much a nightmare the trip actually was compared to her imagined version).
Youll notice that Danny is the one actually acting as a role model for Wendy as he is eating (instead of fantasising) at the breakfast table. Then she subconsciously picks up on his pattenr of eating and then she follows and picks up the bread and starts eating. After that she is fully present to the moment (and with Danny / present company). He brought her out of her 'fantasy / dream state' and back to reality by asking her a question -- that demanded her to pay attention and be present.
He caught her out being distracted and got her to 'wakeup' to the moment. Seriousness of the trip they were about to make. A serious issue / concern of her son being lonely -- and she just dismissed it by 'playing a silly character' to get out of acknowledging that issue and changing plans accordingly. - maybe could have chosen somewhere more suitable for a lonely kid.
I like it.... Very well thought out.
What would the dog-ear fold mean in this sense? Wendy is showing us the dog-ear fold for almost 10 seconds, there is something about it. The best meaning, I can come up with is book killer (based on how dog-eared folds in books were frowned upon in libraries, schools and serious readers.) it also could say other things about Wendy (such as uneducated, rebel or lazy) or maybe it's the passage in the book...
Also I just thought that you dogear because you don’t want to lose your place. This is Wendy’s fear.
@@user-vw6xp5nl6t That's a good way to think about it :)
@@tankardoftales4645 Ha! I had to circle around to get there.. but I got there in the end. Thanks!
They aren't eating rye bread.
I appreciate that you tried to find out the source for the "Oswald had the Catcher in the Rye" story . I was into the Kennedy assassination for a couple of years. I tried to read all the oldest books, I did not pay much attention to the modern ones - just read them for fun as the library got rid of the old books and replaced them with modern ones. I think this detail of Oswald owning Catcher in the Rye is a recent invention, as you say. A few books were mentioned among Oswald's possessions in some books, but I never saw that one mentioned, ever. I liked the "Catcher in the Shining" video that Shining Insights did very much. In my experience, Catcher in the Rye was promoted as a great American novel for everyone to read by the mainstream media, and it was taught in school as literature. It was controversial for being vulgar and having crude language. The parents did not see the value of it. Chapman did not give the book a bad reputation, but Hinckley did. People immediately noticed the connection and thought it was weird two assassins would have that book. It was odd. Oswald was not in the story, at that time.
This is the most annoying thing about the dog-eared fold. There are several internet blogs referring Catcher in the Rye and the Dog-eared fold to Oswald, but when you start digging for the source, none found.
One of the reasons I posted the video with the hopes that someone knew something about the dog-eared fold, Catcher in the Rye and Oswald.
@@tankardoftales4645 What is the Dog Eared Fold supposed to mean? All it meant to me is that everyone was taught not to do that to books and Wendy broke the rule.
This happens alot -- a certain narrative gets repeated long enough, and after a while (hopefully), someone comes along and asks "Wait a sec...where/when did this narrative even begin?"
Comes up a lot in history of philosophy and religion, which are areas i tend to focus on.
I think it's good that you're pointing this out
Thanks, I'm very pleased that you enjoyed the video.
The title of the novel "THE CATCHER IN THE RYE" is a reference to something Holden Caulfield says to the person (i.e. a psychiatrist?) interviewing him: he wants to protect little children who might accidentally chase after a ball about to roll over a cliff. Think of Danny playing with his toys . . . until Jack's tennis ball rolls into them, the prelude to a scene of trauma that Danny will soon undergo.
In chapter 22 of RYE, page 173, Holden -- talking with his sister Phoebe -- misquotes a line from a poem by Robert Burns, the original of which reads: "If a body meet a body coming through the rye" -- with Holden having thought it read "If a body catch a body comin' through the rye" . . . and then he tells her, ". . . I keep picturing all these little kids playing some game in this big field of rye and all. Thousands of little kids, and nobody's around--nobody big I mean--except me. And I'm standing on the edge of some crazy cliff. What I have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff--I mean if they're running and they don't look where they're going I have to come out from somewhere and CATCH them. That's all I'd do all day. I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all. I know it's crazy, but that's the only thing I'd really like to be. I know it's crazy."
The next paragraph is telling as to why Kubrick would have Wendy reading this book:
Old Phoebe didn't say anything for a long time. Then, when she said something, all she said was, "Daddy's going to kill you,"
One other thing, just an odd hunch. The name of the narrator of RYE -- Holden Caulfield -- includes the word 'CAUL', which means "the membrane surrounding the amniotic fluid, a part of which sometimes covers a baby's head when it is born" . . . and I seem to recall that somewhere in the novel "THE SHINING" there's a reference to Danny having had a caul covering his face when he was born -- which, according to folklore, was a sign that the child would have 'special' powers, like Danny manifests later, his 'Tony' persona showing him glimpses of the Future and the Past, that sort of thing. Assuming I'm right about Danny having had a caul, I can imagine Kubrick reading that and immediately remembering the name "Holden CAULfield" from THE CATCHER IN THE RYE, and that being enough to warrant having Wendy reading it in his movie version of King's novel.
After all, 'Tony' is Daniel Anthony Torrance's FUTURE SELF somehow communicating across Time to help his own vulnerable child-self get through the horrors of the Overlook Hotel . . . acting as the 'catcher in the rye' who wants to save vulnerable children who don't realize how dangerous it is, playing so near a "crazy cliff."
The Shining Insights TH-cam video makes a good argument that the Shining (Stanley Kubrick movie) is a offbeat part 2 to Catcher in the Rye...
th-cam.com/video/FhqId7IIn74/w-d-xo.html
I'm not 100% agreeing this but it's interesting (all the videos are a must watch, it covers a lot of stuff that Rob Ager never talked about or knew).
I still believe there has to be something about Dog-eared Fold reference with Catcher because the Shining was made before John Lennon was kill and too many second hand references in the 2000s suggests Dog-eared Fold reference to JFK and nobody is taking about Wendy is crazy at the time.
But I cannot find the source of the reference and cannot find Oswald owning Catcher.
As for Holden. I'm not sure he wants to protect children as he claims. I feel that's himself convincing himself as a better person then most people. But he's not.
I grew up in the sixties and seventies, read everything I could get my hands on, and that was a common remark I would see - he was born with a caul, and this has a folklore meaning of special powers. I think you could be right about the name being a signal. I wonder if anyone ever got it before? I consider ball games in movies part of the Alice in Wonderland formula, as every thing leads up to playing croquet with the Queen, but nobody can beat the Queen because she keeps changing the rules, and if you do too well, she will kill you. This is no joke. It is the power structure defending itself. It is cancel culture. It is people making "kill switch" videos. In the Disney cartoon, Alice makes a good shot in the game and gets put on trial, she runs through a maze trying to escape and finally wakes up from her dream as the whole cast is closing in on her to harm her. I never appreciated this symbol of a field of kids falling over cliffs in Catcher in the Rye, but now I think that it seems very mind blowing. It kind of leads into the CIA mind control conspiracies theories. If Holden was targeted by the CIA for his"special powers", they have been doing something to him that makes him go crazy, now they are through with him, he half knows what happened and wants to save other kids who will be targeted. Like kids targeted to become Manchurian candidate assassins. OK, I don't condone these CIA theories, but this all just came to me while I was trying to comment on cauls and ball games.
The Catcher in the Rye is about a man in a mental institution relating a story about his past. If you know of the deleted ending of The Shining then you know that Wendy is in a hospital (mental hospital) in a room with a cop guarding the door, when Ullman goes to tell her that the police found nothing unusual at the Resort and that the police are going to allow her to go home. AKA she made it up in her head. There was no Jack. Jack is never even mentioned in the deleted ending.
Did you check the videos posted by Shining Insights. There seem to be a good number of references to insane asylum or mental hospital.
th-cam.com/channels/TWE9JN6tPbmJKZGePNI3iQ.html
I follow the Object of Art and have seen you in the comments. I’m just finishing up my reading of this book, so I will save your video (and Bazed Lit. Analyzer’s livestream) for when I am done.
Please post me a link when it's done :)
Haven’t watched this yet. th-cam.com/video/kG5ZJdlS-xo/w-d-xo.html&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE
@@Gershom. Thanks I'll watch it sometime this week.
Enjoy. I’ll catch up with it once I finish the book.
@@Gershom. I know the feeling.
John Lennon is the inspiration for Stephen King's use of the shine metaphor. . THE SHiNiNG (Instant Karma!). Kubrick's film is released 199 days before Lennon dies, just as Nelson Mandela is born on the 199th day of the year. BTW, Paul McCartney (or his lookalike) sings the "Live and Let Die" song ( Oswald's reading list). Barry Nelson is the esoteric first James Bond. The exoteric first James Bond has a day 237 birthday, Sean Connery, August 25th. Barry Nelson was born the day Lenin arrived at the Finland Station in a sealed train car to kick off the Russian revolution at the behest of the German secret police. The Beatles were tasked with starting a cultural revolution. Stuart Ullman has no business telling Jack about the murders in the hotel. Kubrick very much wants his rabbit hole followers to understand the two cut minutes - where it's understood that Ullman is taking Wendy and Danny back with him to California as his prize. My theory is that Kubrick was part of a cabal who had somehow created a way to manipulate time, & it was his mission (like half of Hollywood) to code that new paradigm (of out of control paradox) into the subconscious of the world. . . Arthur C Clarke's Third Law seems to have been proven very quickly. Clarke, by the way, dies 237 days after Kubrick would have turned 79. . . (3x79) . . The Catcher in the Rye is an 18 year synch with the launch of Apollo 11- Danny's sweater . . July 16, 1951. . July 16, 1969. See, they fooled everyone that the future was about space and not time. . . hard to sell that premise, if you think about it
And factor in that Eraserhead was a huge influence... you are right that it's all somehow linked.
I saw 5 soures that shows Oswald owned "Live and Let Die"
I failed to mention in the video because I found this after I made the video... Oswald owns 18 to 19 books listed as Russian Books. Oddly no other information about these books. It could be possible that Oswald owned a Russian copy of Catcher in the Rye. I guess I'll be digging deeper in the rabbit hole.
@@tankardoftales4645The “Eye Scream” videos mention Russian Shakespeare books in the Torrence Overlook bedroom, connected linguistically to “red rum.”
I think that the fact that Kubrick purposely had Wendy reading The Catcher in the Rye book proves what i have been thinking about for a long time: ie. Kubrick purposely has Wendy as sort of this "goofy" submissive innocuous wife in the film but I think that she serves as an active participant to the overall hidden narrative. Her overly protective doting of Danny seems to be hiding an implicit role that Wendy is playing to the overall family dysfunction. I felt that the way Jack mentions Wendy as a "horror fan" during his interview was such an odd and out of place statement.
Agree something is off with Wendy.
After I found out about the grudge S. King had against Stanley. I thought maybe the horror fan comment was a crack aimed at King. Wendy, an example of a pathetic loser sitting in her miserable apartment reading horror books to escape her dismal life. Your biggest fan, S. King.
I also found another article but I seemed to have lost it with a photo of David Koresh with a copy of the book of apparently the same printing with a red cover.
Do you remember when or where you saw it?
Watch The Shining Code 2.0 on you tube. In that, the catcher in the rye is autobiographical to Kubrick and his supposed involvement in shooting fake moon landing footage from NASA and getting total artistic control over his movies as a result of this deal.
Thanks it's an interesting video. I sort of forgot about Diamonds are Forever, but I assuming they were filming a test video or maybe a commercial. I would not be surprised if Kubrick put Apollo 11 references in the movie (to hint about the cold war or the moon landing itself [fake or real] fun Easter eggs).
I don't think Kubrick faked the moon landing. Few factors to list:
1... This was during the Cold War. Russia would be pleased to learn the moon landing was fake.
2... Kubrick wanted to make the Napoleonic War movie during that time. If he faked the moon landing for whatever he wanted, he would get the budget to make the movie.
3... Kubrick was very famous before the moon landing and alive afterwards. If the government wanted this project done in secret Kubrick would be dead before 1969.
Would Kubrick have referenced Jamestown with "Kool-aid?" The Jamestown incident used Flavor Aid.
Originally I thought that too. But the production was wrapping up before the Jonestown incident.
But the Kool-aid is referring to something earlier. The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Electric_Kool-Aid_Acid_Test
Unfortunately I found out about the Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test months after making this video.
@@tankardoftales4645 Ah. Well, I'm just learning about it now. Cool. Thanks.
@@TroyPacelli You should check out Miss M page www.youtube.com/@theobjectofart
We've been kind of uncovering many hidden and overlooked (pun intended) references in the Shining.
@@tankardoftales4645 Will do! Thanks!!
The word kill is mentioned around 500 times in the book because Holden keeps saying it killed me ie to drop the word kill in there. Moreover, he uses the expression shooting the bull 3 times etc the brutality of the language is out of this world and it is definitely intentional
Never thought of that... I wonder if anybody bought the book and highlighted the word kill.
@@tankardoftales4645 Yeah I don't mean to be rude but the problem here is not whether Osvald owned a copy of the book but the horror story is in the language itself of Catcher not the story. The brutality and horror of the language. Anyway, I like your video I just think whether Osvald bla bla is a diversion from the horrible truth
@@tankardoftales4645 Fx when Holden talks of whistling he throws in words like slaughter and he calls himself a rapid packer which sounds like a machine gun. Sorry English is not my first language
@@tankardoftales4645 Also fx his sister says daddy will kill you again as a metaphor or rather to get the word in the text
@@tankardoftales4645 As for Wendy reading Catcher I think that was in the original King story although King is obviously too much of a noob to understand Catcher and so is the patsy whom they said shot Lennon fx Larry King said Holden was not violent and then he says Holden imagined shooting someone. That is a weak understanding of the book. Salinger has written from 1965 to 2010 without us seeing a single word yet
The author J.D Sallinger is a descendant of the Crow Indian Tribe !
Cool. But does it mean something. Sorry I know nothing about Crow Nation.
Love the Kennedy tangent!!! 🤗
Thanks... The reason why I'm in the Shining Rabbit hole... :)
I was surprised to learn that LHO was a New Yorker.
Great I'm going to sound like an idiot for asking, what's LHO referring too. I know I should know this but I'm sorry I cannot think of it.
@@tankardoftales4645
Not to worry. Lee Harvey Oswald.
@@stevencampbell7473 I knew I'll smack myself on the forehead for that... thanks.
New York, yeah I remember reading something about that and he had trouble in school. I kept digging and hoping there was something with his childhood and Catcher in the Rye and not finding it.
@@tankardoftales4645 My theory about a theory. Say the CIA had people planted at libraries in certain cities. They could get the plant to tell them which kids were checking out Catcher in the Rye repeatedly. These are the kids they would evaluate to use for their political plots when they needed a lone nut patsy or similar activities. Oswald actually came under evaluation by a top NYC psych. doctor when he was living there as a teen. He and his mom fled the city when they wanted to send Oswald to a farm to be slave labor, the judge made money on every kid he sent to this institution. That is what Oswald's mother said, anyway. She had a New York lawyer, Mark Lane, working with her. Whether Lane was exploiting a mentally ill woman or she was demonized by the media because she was a truther girl is hard to say. Lane later ended up with the Jim Jones cult, but he said they tried to kill him.
@@hermanhale9258 very interesting theory.
I think there a lot of questionable stuff about Oswald. The huge one is him deflecting to the USSR and returns back to the USA with a Russian Wife.
I do believe 99.9% of all Catcher in the Rye conspiracy theory come from after the failed President Reagan assassination attempt.
The .01% I could find was a joke in the 1970s newspaper, I believe was making fun of the religions groups for banning (or trying to ban) Catcher in the Rye for offensive language in a book for teens.
I think Catcher shouldn't be market as a teen book.
I do think the CIA was tracking Mein Kampf. Oswald was found with a copy of Mein Kampf.
Has anyone been able to discern the page Wendy is reading?
It's been awhile when I saw the video by "Shining Insights" I believe the page and the book printing was shown on the video.
I'll check it later today (sorry I have issues posting links - TH-cam deletes the replies)
According to Shining Insights. The Shining is part 2 to Catcher in the Rye.
@@tankardoftales4645 yeah, I've been trying to hunt down the page number for some time with no luck. If you can figure it out, that would be amazing
@@lajphd I have the video downloaded I'll check it out layer today :)
@@lajphd Bantam Books edition page 133.
@@tankardoftales4645 no way! How’d you find it!?
Catcher In The Rye fell victim to moral outrage as soon as it was released in the mid-late 1940s. I’m sure an early 20s Kubrick (and fellow NYC native to JD Salinger) remembered this. Yes, you will find written references to the book being actively censored from 1960 onward, but prior to that, it was not a book average American parents of the time thought appropriate for high school aged youths to be exposed to (even in fiction), despite the fact the book essentially had universal acclaim to that point.
I don’t think the fact The Shining was filmed before the more modern high profile instances of the Salinger book (Reagan, Lennon, etc.) being used by the media to drum up moral fear in uptight middle-Americans should keep us from looking into the book being used in the context of the Wendy Theory, however.
Holden Caulfield, much like Wendy, is /not/ a reliable storyteller. I’d have to read Catcher In The Rye again, but I could probably come up with some correlation with the misdirected protectionism of Wendy and Danny being analogous to Holden and Phoebe. Also, the story arc of Wendy’s “illness” (in the Wendy Theory) being similar to that of Holden’s by the end of the novel; especially taking into account the deleted hospital room scene at the end of The Shining, but I digress...
I’m most interested in finding out what page of Catcher In The Rye that Kubrick decided to “dog-ear”. Someone’s going to have to hunt down Wendy’s specific edition of the novel and match up the paragraph alignment to the book on the screen.
Thanks... check out the TH-cam Shining Insights. You'll love all the videos!
th-cam.com/channels/TWE9JN6tPbmJKZGePNI3iQ.html
Salinger wrote a story in 1942 called the boy with the people shooting hat. Very disturbing
Thanks! That's interesting. Is it a short story? I know in the Catcher in the Rye that scene was referenced in the story.
@@tankardoftales4645 Yes an unpublished short story. My research shows Catcher was a kind of delivery job from the cultural authorities who asked him to put in a lot of violence and brutality in the book propably to stimulate the reader/listener so he did that
@@theantinatalismzone392 I'm finding out that Catcher is the ultimate unreliable narrator. Which could make sense why Wendy is reading Catcher in the Rye, the Shining seem to be the ultimate unreliable narrator movie (mind fuck movie).
I still don't understand why I'm finding reference of Oswald owning Catcher in the Rye and the reference of a dog-eared fold makes the book an important find, while my exhausting research I find Oswald not owning such book and the only thing I can find a catcher book with a dog-eared fold (that predates John Lennon murder) is Wendy in the Shining. Very odd.
It's odd how he reference that part in Catcher in the Rye, almost like the book was an expanded version of the short story.
@@tankardoftales4645 Yeah when Kubrick did the sitting on the bomb in Strangelove that is from Catcher as well. On the other hand, King made the ludicrous remark that Salinger/Holden would like the freedom of the hippies
@@tankardoftales4645 Well I think it was some ideas he had for a while but since we know he was an agent it is not strange he would obey others when they asked him to and Catcher is definitely written on behalf of the cultural authorities
I don't think Kool-Aid had much of a bad reputation when the movie came out. Kool-Aid was considered all American, mostly from its ads on TV, which made it look like something a wonderful mom served to her wonderful kids and their friends. Kubrick and his kids had spent time in New York when he was working on the story for Space Odyssey. I think SK would have been well aware of the Johnny Carson show and Kool-Aid commercials, if he watched any TV. The Kool-Aid MIGHT have had a meaning that Wendy was trying to buy a happy, normal American life-style when she bought Kool-Aid. It might have also had a meaning that she shouldn't be serving her kid that stuff, and even that she was making him sick by serving him sugar and food dyes. I'm not sure in what decade diet concerns became so important. 1980 might have been a little too early for that.
I think 8 months ago I figured Kool-aid was referring to - The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test.
The 1960s is way before my time and the The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test was huge.
I'll have to talk about The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test and the Shining oneday
@@tankardoftales4645 Yeah, I have that book. I didn't want to go there. I don't think the audience went there at the time. But myself, I did wonder why Wendy had two big cans of Kool-aid. My mother bought one big can at a time, and we had seven kids. She also bought the envelopes of Kool-aid, like most people.
@@tankardoftales4645 Yeah, the acid tests were in the papers, but most people didn't use LSD that much. Considering the Indian motif in the Shining, you might think some other drugs would have made it into the story.
@@tankardoftales4645 Someone is doing acid tests in this movie?
Hey Richard, I just wonder what you're always drinking in your 🍺 mug
Please let me know. Thanks.
Specifics please.
Old Speckled Hen, Leffe (dark), Abbey /Trippel Ale, Piiraat Ale (those are my favorites). The special Reserve Piraat is awesome, hard to find. There are a few other European styles I could of had.
@@tankardoftales4645 thanks for the reply
dude watch the movie 'conspiracy theory' catcher in the rye is shown as indicative of mk u7tra mind control
This Wendy Theory is a crock of shit. Have any of you even read The Catcher in the Rey? What is it about? Its theme and plot theme? And what does that have to do with the theme and plot theme of The Shining?
Picture Beavis and Butt-Head on a quest for sex and alcohol, and you might get the idea what Catcher in the Rye is all about.
Audio poor
Thanks I'll get better equipment if I see 1,000 subscribers. I'm making zero money... Thanks for enjoying my free show.