@@MiladeOliveiraGaia Thanks so much!! I’m so obsessed that on this same channel I’ve also started a canto by canto series in Italian (with English cc).
I am constantly amazed at Dante's ability to modulate language to fit a scene, a mood, and an overall theme. I would have never become fully aware of how much he does this without you having pointed it out. I love the idea of this circle of Hell being like intestines with Satan at the very END. Ha! The Birk and Sanders volume looks admirable in its creativity and audaciousness, but it would never be my kind of "thing." I guess I'm too old fashioned. This was another joyful romp into the depths.
Haha right, basically Satan is like a ‘cork’, stuck in there! : ) But yes language is Dante’s top skill - among a few other skills he had... And he managed to squeeze out of language the most expressive power that he could.
synchronicity in action...as i was reading this canto today i thought that to the original audience the characters in the inferno would have been familiar people and i wondered who the cast would be if there was a version with contemporary people and lo and behold you introduce the sandow edition...i just ordered the inferno...
Another interesting video! I hadn’t done the connection of the level of language with the inferior circles. I was first shocked by the words shit and shitty. I thought them too modern. But then I saw the words merda and merdoso which are the same in Portuguese. I didn’t know they were so old! In my translation the Malebolge are explained to be literally evil pouches, but the word used in the translation is Eviltiers.
Isn’t it fascinating to look at the history of language? And especially the similarities between Portuguese, Spanish, Italian and French (la merde!). Thanks for watching.
Loved the focus on language in this video. I had some idea of how Dante shifted to a "higher" form of language in Purgatorio and Paradiso, but I hadn't really noticed how Dante "degraded" the language to match what he's describing in the second half of Inferno until now. As I was reading this Canto translated by Mandelbaum, it did strike me as simpler and more vulgar than the previous ones, but I don't think I noticed it at all when reading the Hollander translation last year. Not sure if Hollander made the difference more subtle or if I wasn't reading close enough. I'll never stop being amazed at how carefully Dante constructed the Comedy. Knowing that Malebolge can be translated as "evil pockets" makes it easier to picture, at least for me. I remember being really confused as to what Malebolge vs. circles were. That edition translated by Birk and Sanders looks great. Awesome discussion, Tom!!
That's interesting to hear. Steve Donoghue thinks that Mandelbaum is the best English translation - I think I will probably use Mandelbaum once I get to Purgatorio, also because I don't think Pinsky has translated it yet. Thanks again for the company. I feel like reading the Comedy is an experience that never really ends.
@@tomlabooks3263 I really like Mandelbaum's translation so far--I'm excited to see how he translated Purgatorio and Paradiso. It's my pleasure to be part of the journey, I'm having an amazing experience reading the Comedy alongside your videos!
This is one of the points when your explanation is invaluable as I was taken aback by the language shift until listening to your talk about this. I am so happy to have Pinsky now too as I can look across to the Italian and see words like merda and puttana. Also Kirkpatrick's freer approach is often great but can leave me a bit uncertain so good to balance it with one that is more directly based on the original. One question. Why was flattery seen as such a severe sin?
Flattery being punished at such a lower level than murder (and other sins) certainly goes against our modern western sensitivity or morality. Dante’s Malebolge is probably reflecting his personal feeling of being in exile due to betrayal by many people of his town, but for the most part, he is sticking to the christian morality of his times. “Peccatum linguae” was the sin that the devil had used in Eden to trick Adam and Eve. In other words, flatterers - and fraudsters in general - are not only driven by greed, but also something additional and “diabolical”, which is the perverse use of God’s gift of language. Flattery was also seen as something that would put the broader society at risk, and for Dante the common good was a central concern. If you want, you can google “The medieval case against flattery”, a recent article by Paul Meany that addresses this point. John of Salisbury wrote the “Policraticus” about a century before Dante, where he made a serious analysis of flattery, and it’s possible that Dante had read it. I hope this is useful!
@@scallydandlingaboutthebooks And of course, as it’s often the case with the Comedy, the best answer should be “Let’s do a full university course just on this point”, and we would probably still have questions after that...
@@tomlabooks3263 so if I understand correctly the argument was that flattery and deception in politics could have a distorting affect on society that was more dangerous than an individual act of violence.
@@scallydandlingaboutthebooks Exactly. In his political work “De Monarchia”, Dante further articulates this concept of the importance of the collective good vs. the individual. I think, also based on the 2 examples of flatterers that he presents, that he had specifically in mind the flatterers within a political context: courtesans, political assistants, anyone who had some influence in the circles of power, because they are the ones who would damage society with their flattery, for how delicate the management of political power is. As to whether individual / personal flattery is included (for example, saying to your butcher that he looks great today because you want the best cut of meat) I really don’t know. Maybe it is, but only as a secondary perspective.
Looking forward now to my Dante weekend treat, even better this weekend as Allen of Big Hard Books and Classics sent me a copy of Pinsky. Isn't he a dear man? So I can read two versions and at least look at the Italian.
I have some catching up to do! I saw this last week, and had to immediately order Sanders/Birks translation. That sounds like a really fun read--even for the illustrations alone. I was reading some reviews on it, and it seems people are very split on the interpretation. People think it is either a great idea, or hated it so much they sent it back with a warning letter 😂. Well, that leaves me no choice but to read it haha.
You made me laugh because I know exactly which reviews you are talking about - I had looked through them as well. At the end of the day, even if it’s not a precise translation and many similes are completely changed, it’s such a creative project that it deserves some note. And those illustrations are really amazing. I’d love to hear what you think of it once you’ve found the time to read it. Time, my friend...! I’ve been swamped with work this week when all I’d like to do is read and spend time on booktube 😂
Thanks for sharing the illustrations. I'm having trouble imagining NYC as Paradise though. It's interesting how different the translations are. Mine uses much "cleaner" language, so it surprised me to hear the others. For example the passage you read is translated as follows: Then said to me the Guide: "See that thou thrust Thy visage somewhat farther in advance, That with thine eyes thou well the face attain Of that uncleanly and dishevelled drab, Who there doth scratch herself with filthy nails, And crouches now, and now on foot is standing.
Definitely agree on not seeing the link between NYC and Paradise : ) Thanks for sharing that translation. It's not bad of course, but in a sense it's almost like "betraying" the original, where Dante chose to use foul language.
Malebolge is translated as badlands by Ellis ....and I agree the language is much more earthy ....feels more like Shakespeare to me especially his food puns from 37 to 63.. love this. Would Bologna have been known for its food back then , as it is now ? And is he deliberately using coarse language as we go further into hell to contrast with the Latin in the Bible ? I am so in love with Dure's illustrations as I find they are so stark and dramatic ...I'm sure they inspired the graphics in Lord of the Rings especially in the dwarves mine ...I will look out for the book you shared ...it looks really good ...
Thanks Hester - oh my, don't get me started about Italian cuisine, that's where my heart is : )) Many the great local cooking traditions in the various Italian regions find their roots in the Middle Ages. Bologna is famous for tortellini, which might have been invented a little later than Dante but not much. But I'm sure many dishes that you can find in Bologna today you could find, in some earlier versions, in Dante's times as well. Also agree with you on Gustave Dore, he was such a master.
@@tomlabooks3263 me too ...my mother was born in Naples , lived in Liguria before coming to England in the 1930s so , in my opinion ,its the best food in the world ...!
Besides, Venedico has sold to his sister Ghisolabella to Marquis Obizzo II, Lord of Ancona, Ferrara, Modena and Reggio Emilia, for "satisfying love desires".
@@tomlabooks3263 Sorry about that. My phone is broken! Just that Pinsky's doesn't tell which circles were in, no illustrations, I don't think the notes are all that great. I like Musa and Cairdi's translation better. No biggie (just wished I knew Italian, like everyone else)!
I've been watching a lot of Dante channels but yours is exceptional!
@@MiladeOliveiraGaia Thanks so much!! I’m so obsessed that on this same channel I’ve also started a canto by canto series in Italian (with English cc).
I am constantly amazed at Dante's ability to modulate language to fit a scene, a mood, and an overall theme. I would have never become fully aware of how much he does this without you having pointed it out. I love the idea of this circle of Hell being like intestines with Satan at the very END. Ha! The Birk and Sanders volume looks admirable in its creativity and audaciousness, but it would never be my kind of "thing." I guess I'm too old fashioned. This was another joyful romp into the depths.
Haha right, basically Satan is like a ‘cork’, stuck in there! : ) But yes language is Dante’s top skill - among a few other skills he had... And he managed to squeeze out of language the most expressive power that he could.
Jason was captain of the Argonauts in the famous quest of the Golden Fleece.
synchronicity in action...as i was reading this canto today i thought that to the original audience the characters in the inferno would have been familiar people and i wondered who the cast would be if there was a version with contemporary people and lo and behold you introduce the sandow edition...i just ordered the inferno...
thanks for your great and helpful knowledge!
Another interesting video!
I hadn’t done the connection of the level of language with the inferior circles.
I was first shocked by the words shit and shitty. I thought them too modern. But then I saw the words merda and merdoso which are the same in Portuguese. I didn’t know they were so old!
In my translation the Malebolge are explained to be literally evil pouches, but the word used in the translation is Eviltiers.
Isn’t it fascinating to look at the history of language? And especially the similarities between Portuguese, Spanish, Italian and French (la merde!). Thanks for watching.
Loved the focus on language in this video. I had some idea of how Dante shifted to a "higher" form of language in Purgatorio and Paradiso, but I hadn't really noticed how Dante "degraded" the language to match what he's describing in the second half of Inferno until now. As I was reading this Canto translated by Mandelbaum, it did strike me as simpler and more vulgar than the previous ones, but I don't think I noticed it at all when reading the Hollander translation last year. Not sure if Hollander made the difference more subtle or if I wasn't reading close enough. I'll never stop being amazed at how carefully Dante constructed the Comedy. Knowing that Malebolge can be translated as "evil pockets" makes it easier to picture, at least for me. I remember being really confused as to what Malebolge vs. circles were.
That edition translated by Birk and Sanders looks great. Awesome discussion, Tom!!
That's interesting to hear. Steve Donoghue thinks that Mandelbaum is the best English translation - I think I will probably use Mandelbaum once I get to Purgatorio, also because I don't think Pinsky has translated it yet. Thanks again for the company. I feel like reading the Comedy is an experience that never really ends.
@@tomlabooks3263 I really like Mandelbaum's translation so far--I'm excited to see how he translated Purgatorio and Paradiso. It's my pleasure to be part of the journey, I'm having an amazing experience reading the Comedy alongside your videos!
This is one of the points when your explanation is invaluable as I was taken aback by the language shift until listening to your talk about this.
I am so happy to have Pinsky now too as I can look across to the Italian and see words like merda and puttana. Also Kirkpatrick's freer approach is often great but can leave me a bit uncertain so good to balance it with one that is more directly based on the original.
One question. Why was flattery seen as such a severe sin?
Flattery being punished at such a lower level than murder (and other sins) certainly goes against our modern western sensitivity or morality. Dante’s Malebolge is probably reflecting his personal feeling of being in exile due to betrayal by many people of his town, but for the most part, he is sticking to the christian morality of his times. “Peccatum linguae” was the sin that the devil had used in Eden to trick Adam and Eve. In other words, flatterers - and fraudsters in general - are not only driven by greed, but also something additional and “diabolical”, which is the perverse use of God’s gift of language. Flattery was also seen as something that would put the broader society at risk, and for Dante the common good was a central concern. If you want, you can google “The medieval case against flattery”, a recent article by Paul Meany that addresses this point. John of Salisbury wrote the “Policraticus” about a century before Dante, where he made a serious analysis of flattery, and it’s possible that Dante had read it. I hope this is useful!
@@tomlabooks3263 thanks that help a bit. I will look for the article you mention.
@@scallydandlingaboutthebooks And of course, as it’s often the case with the Comedy, the best answer should be “Let’s do a full university course just on this point”, and we would probably still have questions after that...
@@tomlabooks3263 so if I understand correctly the argument was that flattery and deception in politics could have a distorting affect on society that was more dangerous than an individual act of violence.
@@scallydandlingaboutthebooks Exactly. In his political work “De Monarchia”, Dante further articulates this concept of the importance of the collective good vs. the individual. I think, also based on the 2 examples of flatterers that he presents, that he had specifically in mind the flatterers within a political context: courtesans, political assistants, anyone who had some influence in the circles of power, because they are the ones who would damage society with their flattery, for how delicate the management of political power is. As to whether individual / personal flattery is included (for example, saying to your butcher that he looks great today because you want the best cut of meat) I really don’t know. Maybe it is, but only as a secondary perspective.
Looking forward now to my Dante weekend treat, even better this weekend as Allen of Big Hard Books and Classics sent me a copy of Pinsky. Isn't he a dear man? So I can read two versions and at least look at the Italian.
That’s really kind of him. And I think Pinsky’s is a great translation to use with Kirkpatrik’s, because they are quite different in style.
I have some catching up to do! I saw this last week, and had to immediately order Sanders/Birks translation. That sounds like a really fun read--even for the illustrations alone. I was reading some reviews on it, and it seems people are very split on the interpretation. People think it is either a great idea, or hated it so much they sent it back with a warning letter 😂. Well, that leaves me no choice but to read it haha.
You made me laugh because I know exactly which reviews you are talking about - I had looked through them as well. At the end of the day, even if it’s not a precise translation and many similes are completely changed, it’s such a creative project that it deserves some note. And those illustrations are really amazing. I’d love to hear what you think of it once you’ve found the time to read it. Time, my friend...! I’ve been swamped with work this week when all I’d like to do is read and spend time on booktube 😂
Thanks for sharing the illustrations. I'm having trouble imagining NYC as Paradise though.
It's interesting how different the translations are. Mine uses much "cleaner" language, so it surprised me to hear the others.
For example the passage you read is translated as follows:
Then said to me the Guide: "See that thou thrust
Thy visage somewhat farther in advance,
That with thine eyes thou well the face attain
Of that uncleanly and dishevelled drab,
Who there doth scratch herself with filthy nails,
And crouches now, and now on foot is standing.
Definitely agree on not seeing the link between NYC and Paradise : ) Thanks for sharing that translation. It's not bad of course, but in a sense it's almost like "betraying" the original, where Dante chose to use foul language.
Malebolge is translated as badlands by Ellis ....and I agree the language is much more earthy ....feels more like Shakespeare to me especially his food puns from 37 to 63.. love this. Would Bologna have been known for its food back then , as it is now ? And is he deliberately using coarse language as we go further into hell to contrast with the Latin in the Bible ? I am so in love with Dure's illustrations as I find they are so stark and dramatic ...I'm sure they inspired the graphics in Lord of the Rings especially in the dwarves mine ...I will look out for the book you shared ...it looks really good ...
Thanks Hester - oh my, don't get me started about Italian cuisine, that's where my heart is : )) Many the great local cooking traditions in the various Italian regions find their roots in the Middle Ages. Bologna is famous for tortellini, which might have been invented a little later than Dante but not much. But I'm sure many dishes that you can find in Bologna today you could find, in some earlier versions, in Dante's times as well. Also agree with you on Gustave Dore, he was such a master.
@@tomlabooks3263 me too ...my mother was born in Naples , lived in Liguria before coming to England in the 1930s so , in my opinion ,its the best food in the world ...!
Was Caccianemico a White or Black Guelph? Thx 🤓 That new book looks very interesting.
He supported the black Guelfs against Dante’s party of the Whites. Yes that book is fun - great illustrations!
Besides, Venedico has sold to his sister Ghisolabella to Marquis Obizzo II, Lord of Ancona, Ferrara, Modena and Reggio Emilia, for "satisfying love desires".
So Great, just .... So many topic as As if said, I don't like this trans, 'caiseni don't speak Italian.
This is why I dislike this translation: It has no company, and I don't know Itiilian.nwhooos me
Hi Allen 😄 You mean the Los Angeles based translation? Or are you saying that the one you are using doesn’t have the original version as well?
@@tomlabooks3263 Sorry about that. My phone is broken! Just that Pinsky's doesn't tell which circles were in, no illustrations, I don't think the notes are all that great. I like Musa and Cairdi's translation better. No biggie (just wished I knew Italian, like everyone else)!
@@bighardbooks770 I see. Yes in fact I find Mark Musa's comments to be really useful. Good luck with your phone!!