I seem to recall reading that during initial runs, they had KM people on board to assess performance. One was in the cab and they were at full power on a mild gradient. After a period of time, he nervously asked, "how long is this mountain grade?" The reply was, "Mountain?! That's another hour away at least." "Mein gott..."
“Diesel-hydraulic is still prevalent in Germany” *shows picture of German railways with more than a dozen *electrified* tracks and some half dozen *electric* trains.* Hmmm.
Diesel-hydraulic is the drive system found in most of Japan's DMUs and even some (most?) of their freight locomotives. So the system is still viable in some places
@@steve1978ger Also in europe (germany included) nobody wants hydraulic transmission these days. Polyphase electric transmission is outperforming hydraulic transmission in all aspects.
@@actualperson1971 Automatic transmission is usually hybrid, where hydraulic components are only used during driveaway and gear shifting. The hydraulic torque converters of these transmissions are tiny, so you can use them only for short periods of time, needing relatively long cooldown phases fo not overheating.
There were three torque converters in the transmission, each connected to a different gear ratio. To change ratios as the locomotive accelerated, oil from the low gear torque converter was drained into the intermediate torque converter, and again to the high speed torque converter.
@@corystansbury technically the description "each torque converter connected to a different gear ratio" is not correct, this transmission is fully hydraulic the only gearing used is for power distribution (not to get different gear ratios) the first torque converter handles lower speeds, its made for very high torque multiplication and its efficiency is low because its always slipping quite a lot in order to get that high torque multiplication, so as speed increases a second torque converter is filled (with oil) to assist the first one (they are mechanically interconnected, they use the same shaft) this has the benefit of lowering the slippage and increasing efficiency acting kinda like a "second gear" (this converter is designed to be not so "loose"), finally there is a regular fluid coupling (not a torque converter so no torque multiplication) also interconected to the other two torque converters(same shaft), when this coupling is filled the transmission is basically in "direct gear" there is no torque multiplication but there is very little slippage meaning high efficiency all of this is pure hydraulics there is no "different gears" in the traditional sense a link with great diagrams: translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=scbist.com/gidroperedachi/source/d2_3.htm
"Neigbouring Finland" well, not really, as you'd have to go through Denmark and Sweden. In Germany the class 200 Diesel hydraulics lasted into the 80s, and the class 218 from the 60s is still in limited service today. The issues with the hydraulic drive have more or less been solved, allowing the locomotives to perform in a variety of tasks that would otherwise require a six axle locomotive. Tasks include pulling long distance Intercitys and regional trains, as well as shunting and heavy freight, and pulling broken down ICEs. Over here Hydraulics are still being built, mainly with the intention of running heavy trains over lines with limited axle loads without the need for a heavier six-axle locomotive, or for tasks which feature lots of shunting or inclines (basically everything you need a lot of tractive effort for). In Europe in general train companies have moved away from six axle designs, as those apparently cause a lot more wear on the rails. This means that even our 7,000+ horsepower electric freight locomotives have only four axles, and that the advantages of a hydraulic transmission justify the increased maintenance costs.
East Germany had its own line of diesel hydraulics - V100 (de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-Baureihe_V_100) and V180 (de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-Baureihe_V_180) - for the most wide spread. (sorry no English Wikipedia) The Comecon later decided that only Russia and Romania should build Diesel units - so they make the East German Reichsbahn buy Russian rolling stock - which is Diesel electric - as the Russians look to America - probably for the same reasons as described in the video: more robust towards temperature, moisture - large distances ...
What issues with the hydraulic gear? I've worked on the railways for quite a while now, and never ran across a leaking or broken Voith gearbox, except for one, but that engine was in a very bad state anyway. As I understand, and I'm not an expert on US railways by any means, the issue where the Maybach motors that were not up to the conditions. Maybe, if SP had fitted some GM engines instead, the whole concept might have worked better?
Although the drive was poor (3 pole motor with gearing that made it run a bit faster than anything this side of the rubber band drive Athearns), the detail of those 1960s shells still holds up today. I'd fancy a rerun!
The traction motors did not wear out because of the multiple units but because of the heavy trains they were pulling. Also the locomotives were expected to come up to road speed quickly which is what horsepower is all about. This creates high amperage situations that cause the electric traction motors overheat. This is the reason for the amp gauges in the cabs and the short time rating tables found with them. The real problem in the early sixties was transition control. The higher horsepower means that at some point the voltage is higher than the amps creating an opportunity for flashover. Think path of least resistance. This is dangerous thus is controlled by traction motor field shunting and switching from series parallel to full parallel. The higher the horsepower the more complex the transition system becomes and the certainty of failure. Add in the training of the electrician and time for diagnostics what you get is a unit that is out of service longer. What changed? The AR or alternator rectified to DC keeps the need for complex transition control to a minimum. Before anyone starts to negate this they should stop and think. This is what I do for a living. They may school me only if they can identify these labels and identify their functions. FTR, BTR, S, P, IR, FSC, BF, SF, Barco, BSLC, TSM, ORS, TRCS?
Believe me, I love getting to see comments like this because it shows that people within the industry are paying attention. If this video gets remade in some form or fashion, your feedback will be included. Thanks so much for your input!
Feed the Railroad, Borrow the Rails, Snek, Pew, Icy Rails, Fun Strange Cars, Big Foot, Barco the First, Big Steam Loco Cars, Trains Super Munch, Orbital Radio Signal, Traction Rod Constant Strain I win it didn't say they had to be correct.
Traction motors do NOT like eating diesel exhaust and that's exactly what was blown into them in the tunnels. You can carbon-plate the hell out of them.
@Common Sense Realist dc largest downside is maintenance of commutators and carbon dust from brushes fouling/ grounding motors. Ac is mower maint but lacked the low speed drag ability due to being asynchronous (slip of rotor rpm to the rotating field rpm in motor). They were good only down to certain rpm, then slip losses were too great below maybe 30 hz (estimate), and you damaged motor by essentially stalling it and current burned it up. When ac drive technology became capable of Flux vector control...or synchronous control, .the low end drag ability (low rpm) control down to zero rpm became possible.
7:55, in Finland, the Dv12 is still in active use and they were produced between 1963-1984, being the most popular diesel-hydraulic locomotive in the country. Not as powerful as in the US, but very reliable, even the oldest ones.
Remember the SP enjoyed overloading engines! Higher HP to SP meant increase the tonnage. The SD24s failed only cause SP had the mentality of what I stated above. Also the company compared everything to the SD9 for tonnage. The SD24 had more power to increase speeds with the same tonnage is what EMD marketed. Yes even the SD45s were over maxed on tonnage. Not surprised on the KMs since SP had that mentality as stated above.
There was only 4 SD24's that were leased,not owned,to Southern Pacific which were EMDX demonstrators.They operated just fine and were officially purchased by Union Pacific when they already owned 30 SD24A's & 45 SD24B's. Also,the SD45's much like the SDP45's,SD45T-2's,FP45's,and SD45M's were already problematic units because of continous crankshaft failure and block flex. 167/358 SD45's became SD45R's just because of those problems. In later years 87/133 SD40M-2 rebuilds from MK Rail were all formerly SD45R's with 12 of the units having GP40-2/SD40-2 fabricated radiators on the rear. The only good that came out of the 45 series was EMD not screwing up a single thing when the GP40-2's & SD40-2's in production,which became one of their last greatest series before the company began to decline.
Well, not many were assembled. They were known as "damn krauts" due to problems mainly with the cooling system. However, I like these, too. Beautiful engines.
Actually EMD built their first 4000+ hp locomotive in 1970. The SD45X. It had 4200 hp from a 20 cylinder 645 engine. 6 went to the Espee (SP) and 1 was retained by EMD as a text vehicle. Montreal Locomotive works built one also. the M640. It has 4000 hp from a 18 cylinder 251 Alco designed engine. It was built in 1971.
Actually,there was 7 SD45X's built. 4 SD45X's originally were EMDX demonstrators (4200-4203) before becoming acquired by Southern Pacific while they already owned 3 SD45X's (9500-9502). In later years when MK Rail was doing rebuilds for them,one of the SD45X's became a SD45XM using the long hood portion of a scrapped EMD DD35B. 3 SD45X's at that became the testbed units with the "elephant ears" just like the GP40X's when they were dealing with the overheating problems in long tunnels.However,those giant pieces on the radiators caused turbelence in the tunnels so the idea was discontinued.Obviously the SD40T-2's & SD45T-2's were introduced right after that.
The British Rail Class 52 was a class of Type 4 diesel-hydraulic locomotives built for the Western Region of British Railways between 1961 and 1964, and 74 were built. They were all named using the prefix 'Western'. Whilst successful in service, they were not very long lived, lasting a dozen or so years each. Several still run on preserved heritage railways in the UK.
@@frglee I rode many miles on the W.o.E. mainline behind 52's. From the punters point of view, they were fantastic locos. I'm one of those idiots that stood by the window in the vestibule at the head end, just to hear that glorious music. With the wind in the right direction you could hear them climbing Erlestoke bank a good five miles away. Not quite so popular with the railway ops dept though...
Congratulations PLA on getting the 9010 running! I used to volunteer for the GGRM and I remember seeing this locomotive in your shed being worked on, rebuilt and painted. I remember there was a gentleman that actually owned this locomotive and was doing some amazing restoration on this machine. I wish I was there to actually see this run but this video caught my eye and I do remember it. Exceptional job and again major congratulations for getting this unit back on the road. If I get back to California and Niles Canyon I will certainly come by your yard for a tour. Major Congratulations!!
A bit of a correction. The Alco C855, EMDs DD35s and 40s, and GEs U50s technically did beat the ML4000C'C's dual engine combined horsepower output. As for Single Engine output exceeding 3999HP, credit I believe goes to the Kestrel in the UK, and between the M640 and SD45X in North America.
Fair to compare the EMD DDs, GE U50s, and Alco C855, as the KMs were dual engine as well. The KMs didn't need double the shop space when they came in for service, though!
I love the way this is done. It doesn't seem like a history lecture. And he uses a train sim to make the videos. It's really nice to see something unique like this.
The last unit on the Espee suffered from a broken drive shaft not a broken axle. The 4000s had a problem with the U joint on these drive shafts breaking that you didn't mention.
The diesel-hydraulics in principle are a sound design, but like anything else they should be well matched to the expected service duty. The K-M maintenance requirements and logistics were unique too, thus more headaches. Espee's purchase seems poorly vetted, like buying a Mercedes Benz sedan to tow a trailer over mountain passes or a Ford truck for autobahn driving. Who knows, sometimes sales reps have cool trinkets to tempt potential clients with.
You really got a point. Every car maker had trouble when entering the german market (french, american, japanese), because in germany there is one specific situation not found anywhere else in the world. Driving on the Autobahn. Which means, no speed limit, so people often just floor it, and go full throttle as fast as their car may get for long periods of time.
@@denzzlinga long periods at bigh rpms is one of the easiest tests for manufacturing. starting and stopping does immensely more damage. to be fair the average speeds on the faster parts of the autobahn are 88mph. its pretty average for an american commute on the interstate... its not a road made out of gold and apache helicopters.
@@denzzlinga not sure if you know kph to mph but the autobahn is not daytona. if we let people speed down that road uncontrollably there would be alot more accidents. bout 130-140 is where most people lose control. these are factory vehicles with little to no aero. you wann play fast and loose start weaving that six lane traffic. take a family with yah...
@@SavageZebra67 88 mph is kind of comfortable cuizing speed. I really meant full throttle. Back in the day that was something over 100 mph, and the japanese and american cars weren´t designed for that, so they overheated and suffered other problems. I mean driving at that point, where aerodynamic drag prevents the car from getting any faster, despite going full throttle. And yes, we do that in germany on the autobahn. And expect cars to withstand it. Freiburg - Karlsruhe for example is 80 miles, without any permanent speed limit, so if traffic allows (at night or on early sunday morings), you can go full throttle there for a period of about 45 minutes.
As a German, yes, why use electricity when hydraulics or mechanics can do the job as well! Seriously, if you haven't heard about the Mercedes 600, look it up. Automatic windows, tailgate, everything was done using hydraulics. Meaning that as soon as something broke, it was an absolute nightmare, though luckily that didn't happen often.
D&RGW also had a few of the Krauss Maffei Locomotives, in fact i got to ride on one of the last passenger trains that was pulled by them before Amtrak took over. Denver to Glenwood Springs Colorado and back
Not a chance. Rio Grande sold all theirs to the SP a decade earlier. I think you mean Alco PA. Besides, Rio Grande opted out of Amtrak, preferring to keep running its Rio Grande Zephyr long after Amtrak came into being.
Interesting looking locomotive. Streamliner cab, and maintenance friendly engine house. It's nice to hear of a unique technology that got a shot, and almost made it. Other locomotives had trouble with long tunnels on the mountainous western runs. Maybach knew how to build good engines, the namesake of the company was one of the first internal combustion engine designers in the world, Karl Maybach. He was Gottlieb Daimler's engine designer for the first gasoline buggy. Maybach was eventually absorbed into MTU, who makes some of the best large diesels in the world.
Southern Pacific,Cotton Belt,and Denver Rio Grande Western finally solved the overheating problems from long tunnels and mountains during 1972-1980 when the EMD SD40T-2's & SD45T-2's were manufactured.312 SD40T-2's surpassed 247 SD45T-2's. Before that was official,there was 7 SD45X's built during 1970 or 1971 that Southern Pacific dealt with.4 SD45X's were EMDX demonstrators while the other 3 SD45X's were ordered by Southern Pacific before the demonstrators also became apart of their roster. These units just like the GP40X's had the "elephant ears" attached to the radiator portions on the long hood while covering the walkways. The idea worked but the main issue was the cause of turbelence in the tunnels so it was discontinued thus having EMD debut the tunnel motors.
Sounds like the problems weren't with the hydraulic transmissions so much as the Maybach engines that were built more for performance than reliability and low operating expenses. Though compact high performance engines were needed to fit so much power in one locomotive. Brings to question how much of the trouble, as well as how much of the appeal, was from the hydraulic transmission versus the engines, and if one of those could have found more success without the other? I imagine this probably happens a lot, where a promising new technology is used in conjunction with something else that causes problems, causing the new technology to get a bad reputation and never live to it's potential, even though said idea wasn't at fault and could have had potential if troublesome aspects it was coupled to were traded out.
SP also bought 3 C643DH Diesel Hydraulics from Alco. This addressed the problem with the Maybach engines, but as history has shown, the Alco prime mover wasn't the best of the remaining 3 US builders, either. Alco was serious about using the Voith transmission, though. GE had supplied all the electricals for Alco, but by this time, had become a competitor. Alco had to get out from under relying on it's competitor for a major subsystem of their locomotives.
I've worked for a company called kraus maffei in Michigan. They made all sorts of stuff. Mostly plastic pellets for injection molds in that specific building. But had an entire industrial park in that area so I'm sure they used them for their own presses.
I heard these units when they first went through Banning,Cal, they woke me up and I chased them to Redlands, Ca that morning then chased them back down as far as Indio the next day. Very different sound!
This is one of the best episodes for a locomotive review I have ever seen! Great music, great visuals, great... EVERYTHING! This is a solid 10 on my list.
There is one that still exists 9010 still runs tourist operations but the engine it self did not work so a engine behind it had to push it but now 9010 is in the shops were the workers are planning to get its engine running again for the first time
The locomotive on2:13 is one of three produced in Germany for Yugoslav railways(JŽ-ЈЖ)in 1960.Although they have performed well Yugoslav railways bought more than 200 diesel electric locomotives from General Motors.
Doc Phillips basically they were great light duty engines. Would be like taking Amtrak diesels and using them for freight service. They can handle light passenger trains like these locomotives but would break down constantly if forced to pull heavy freight trains.
@@douglasallen511 Original ML4000 models were made by AHM/Rivarossi back in the 1960's in plastic. They show up on feebay. The last class of hood style engines were imported in brass by Overland Models. I don't know of any others. The ALCo version may have been imported by Overland too and I think they did the camera car version.
Finally Germany has understood the respective advantages of hydraulic and electric drivetrains. Except for the Voith Maxima which is offered by torque converter manufacturer Voith and sold in rather homoeopathic numbers the "big" ones built new by Bombardier (TRAXX), Siemens (Vectron, previously EuroRunner) and Stadler Euro (designed and previously built by Vossloh) are diesel electric. Mainly because they can build them basically identical to the electrics and just have to put in either a transformer or a prime mover. Okay, very simply said, but modular design plays a major role and results in competitive prices. And the manufacturers even offer retrofitting existing diesels with electric overhead power equipment and vice versa during overhauls. DMU, up to the 628 class in the 80es and 90es also diesel hydraulic, tend to become more and more diesel electric, either for modular design reasons or in the future probably as hybrids running electric on the main line and then lowering the pantograph and running on diesel on the branch line. The rest becomes diesel mechanic with truck or bus drivetrains for cost reasons. Diesel hydraulics have a fixed place in low speed low load service, i.e. switching and road switching. Not only is Voith's Gravita much more successful than its bigger brother but was also facing diesel hydraulic competition until recently by Vossloh (locomotive plant sold to a Chinese company). So while there is a good reason for using diesel hydraulic in switching and road switching service, it is fair to say that mainline diesel hydraulics are dead also in Germany. The last 218 class units will disappear soon and maybe find their final jobs with track building companies, the Voith Maxima is far from a best seller and diesel electrics offer price advantages due to their electric counterparts of modular design with identical parts.
The advantage of the hydraulic transmission was that all driving wheels were locked in sync, so they could get much higher tractive effort than the electrically-driven axles. But the limitations of an engine that wasn't designed to run all day at full throttle was the big issue.
The ML4000s where also produdeced for Brazil (as estated in video), for the metric gauge (1000mm/3ft3in) Vitória à Minas Railroad (EFVM), they were supperseded in mainline duty by the EMD DDM45 a SD45 sitting on D-D trucks, a number of ML4000s lasted here until the late 90s on MoW and shunting jobs, they were finally stowed away in the early 2000s when large numbers of former american railroads C36-7s began to arrive and be converted to BB36-7s.
@@andrewvenn3021 the known unit was sighted and photographed in the mid to late 2000s, sitting in a shed at the shops in terrible condition, after that theres nothing. No records of scrapping, no records of movement, they just disappeared. Some believed at least one unit is stored somewhere.
Glad the ending was good for that engine, I also happen to drive a Hydraulic loco in the Philippines and its usefull for flooded areas where our GE locomotives cant pass through. Great video.
The Class 628 for example from Germany is a pretty successful diesel hydraulic MU which has been exported to several countries and is still in service on regional lines. It's a neat little DMU but it's loud as hell.
Such as in Australia. DH locos also operated successfully across Australia on branch line and in shunting roles for decades, and operate to this day in narrow gauge industrial service.
@@hedgehog3180 the problem with the 628 is that they tried to make it more efficient by only building it with one engine. It’s a double rail car. All other doubles before and after it had two. One per half. The 628 is a little underpowered. It takes a long time to get up to its top speed. And it has huge problems with its speed on steeper lines. Also it is not heavy enough to create the required traction. I am on 628 trains nearly every day. I really like them, but it is time we get newer trainsets like for example Siemens desiro’s on my local line. The 628 will be in service until at least 2024 on my local line.
Good video here. I wondered what happened to those engines. Well, now I know. I read a number of articles in "Trains" that said the maintenance was a big issue.
2:27 It is unconvetional by American Standerds. As a German, I can firmly say that it's more than convetional over here and Diesel-Electric started to become popular in the Late 90's in Europe
The Eastern Reichsbahn saw the Russian (or Lugansk = Ukraine ) built "Taiga Drum" Dieselelectrics which came in two marks - one M62 with DC and the later, still in service with 3phase AC.
maybe in germany, but look abroad. Everyone else got diesel-electric locos since the end of WWII. The UK got a lot of classes of diesel electric locos, the french too, eastern europe too, and the rest got tons and tons of EMD locomotives in all shapes and sizes (Nohabs etc).
You mean to tell me that a video made by an American about American's use of diesel hydraulics will have an.......... American perspective? Mind... absolutely blown.
About Grrmany: There were a lot of issues with the early post war diesel hydraulic engines. They weren't fixed up until the mid 60s. Then diesel hydraulic transmission indeed became a very reliable technology. And Germany isn't neighboring Finland.
The V-160 Family with a bunch of models (BR- 210, BR-210.4 BR-215, BR-216, BR-217 BR-218, BR-219 and BR-225) is still used on some trains. But almost all except for the BR-218 are mostly used in freight, if they weren't rebuild to the BR-218. Alle are dieselhydraulics. I see the BR-218 on nearby Mainline during rush hour with a set of double decker cars. But they are phased out by electrification on passanger lines or are replaced by DMUs. On freight they are being replaced by the diesel electric BR-245 (Bombardier Traxx). But I still we see them for a few years at least.
There are some pretty harsh conditions running the TransCon. Add to that the length of trains that are being run and the speeds they are being run at any weaknesses will show. They just run them hard here.
Hello, I repair and modernize such Krauss Maffai locomotives in Germany. There were 2 hydraulic converters, one for each direction of travel. Behind the hydraulic converter there is a 3 stage gearbox that switches automatically with a centrifugal governor. Behind the transmission, the drive is routed to the axles via cardan shafts. The US locomotives suck the air for the engine at the top of the roof. The German locomotives were not built for long tunnels. They sucked the air in at the side. Therefore, the engines in the tunnel got a lot of exhaust instead of fresh air and lost power until they failed. One of the 3 first locomotives in USA had a problem with a wheel bearing. I know one of the German Krauss Maffay attendants very well and have worked with him.
if I may ask a question: as I understand it, the ML4000 is roughly equivalent to the V200, now, I did a bit of research and my research said the the V200s got replaced in the 80s by new KM units but it never specified which models were their successors, so what replaced the V200s?
Awesome video Brian! The ML4000 is my second favorite American diesel, the first favorite being the TrainMasters. You should do a video like this on Union Pacific's Diesel Giants, like the GTEL's, the DD35's and DD40's, and the U50's.
Nice video. I'm glad to hear that at least one of them is back in operation, they have a really unique look to them. I have one from AHM in HO and sadly it didn't run worth a darn either, LOL, so I re powered it with an Athearn drive train, not quite original in looks any more, butit runs.
The DDA40X and the DD35 were both expensive choices to make. Not to mention the size of them too. So that's why SP had very little DD35s and no DDA40X's
@@HotShotDesigns3D Sampled 3 DD35s and 3 U50s. Decided having to dedicate two shop bays anytime they needed service was too much. Crews hated the U50 because of the ride, and how far the cab stuck over on curves. Not to mention vulnerability at grade crossing accidents.
I was thinking, straight hydraulic drive would offer no buffering between the drive and the driven. That is an advantage of electric. The torque converter is a perfect solution. Hydraulic drives are best for slower speeds with less shock loads!
I had no idea Krauss Maffei made locomotives, I always thought of them as a defence contractor, as they had manufactured roughly a few thousand Leopard 2 main battle tanks for the West German Army
they've been making engines for just about every vehicle on the planet! Locomotives, Tanks, Aircraft and many more! it's just you never hear them referred to as a locomotive manufacturer because Germany has nationalized railways so they are called (in the Ml4000's European counterpart's case) DB class V200
I would imagine that rising fuel costs would have done them in eventually if they hadn’t had the other troubles. Hydraulic transmission cannot match the efficiency of electric transmission.
Brazilian railway EFVM (Estrada de Ferro Vitória-Minas, Vitoria-Minas Railroad) had a fleet of 16 metre-gauge Krauss-Maffei ML4000, all based from SP and Rio Grande units. These locomotives were used on very heavy ore trains as an powerful alternative for EMD G16 machines. Unfortunately, the wheels were slipping so hard that the rails suffered extensive damage and maintenance was more complicated than that of diesel-electric locomotives. EFVM scrapped all Krauss-Maffei machines during Seventies and ask EMD for a metre-gauge version of its most powerful diesel-electric locomotive. The result was the mighty EMD DDM45, a metre-gauge SD45 with D-D wheel arrangement and the same Flexcoil frame used on UP DD35! Nowadays, some DDM45 are still in operation.
Biggest issue it seems is that while it made a lot of hp it wasn’t suitable for pulling heavy freight trains. I’m sure it would have made an excellent passenger locomotive though. And ironically that’s what The restored unit is now being used for. Passenger trains are so much lighter and it would have been a very reliable locomotive if used for that.
The video depicts the story of the ML4000 and its problems in North America well. But one error slid in, the MD 870 was never used in zeppelins, as the MD engine family was only developed after zeppelins fell out of favour after the Hindenburg disaster. Their main field of use were marine and rail applications, and MTU still has a modern version of this engine in its portfolio. I have to agree that it is a complicated engine, I worked on them a couple of times. Being an engine much smaller and higher revving than the EMD and GE engines, the thermal load is also quite larger on them, and yes, they don't like very hot air and ingesting their own exhaust as it eats away quite some power and does make them run hot. We experienced this when we had the air intakes moved from the exterior of the Hymek class locomotive at our preserved railway in the UK to the inside using bucket filters ans thus the engine was inhaling hot air from the engine room.
Excellent video. Regarding the UK models (35, 52’s) I believe their fall was being non standard? As far as I know, they did work well, but weren’t given a chance by the larger BR system. However, I could be wrong.
yes, the Diesel Hydraulics in Britain were one of several things that was a "rebellion" against the rest of BR by the Western devision (the former Great Western Railway), Ironically, these Diesel Hydraulics were often much better then the Diesel Electrics used by the rest of BR
Talk only about the prime mover. I thought it was about "hydraulic". Some technical info's about the hydraulic system itself will have been nice and in tune with the title of the video.
they mention it in the video, the Hydraulic transition just means that the motor itself near directly powers the wheels (because it is an automatic transmission)
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I seem to recall reading that during initial runs, they had KM people on board to assess performance. One was in the cab and they were at full power on a mild gradient. After a period of time, he nervously asked, "how long is this mountain grade?"
The reply was, "Mountain?! That's another hour away at least."
"Mein gott..."
oh no
Joshua Ureiro oh no
@@Trainmaster909 Oh yeah!
I can just imagine the look of horror on the KM guy's face XD
"Mein gott..." And here we learn German. My GOD.
“Diesel-hydraulic is still prevalent in Germany” *shows picture of German railways with more than a dozen *electrified* tracks and some half dozen *electric* trains.* Hmmm.
"prevalent" is definitely an overstatement, but according to Wikipedia, there's still more than 100 of the DB Class 218 being used, plus other types
Technically all automatic transmission cars are "gasoline/diesel hydraulic"
Diesel-hydraulic is the drive system found in most of Japan's DMUs and even some (most?) of their freight locomotives. So the system is still viable in some places
@@steve1978ger Also in europe (germany included) nobody wants hydraulic transmission these days. Polyphase electric transmission is outperforming hydraulic transmission in all aspects.
@@actualperson1971 Automatic transmission is usually hybrid, where hydraulic components are only used during driveaway and gear shifting. The hydraulic torque converters of these transmissions are tiny, so you can use them only for short periods of time, needing relatively long cooldown phases fo not overheating.
In Japan, where domestic diesel-electric locomotives didn't do well, diesel-hydraulics flourishes. Today, the JNR DD51 and DE10s are still in service.
There were three torque converters in the transmission, each connected to a different gear ratio. To change ratios as the locomotive accelerated, oil from the low gear torque converter was drained into the intermediate torque converter, and again to the high speed torque converter.
Any good cutaway pictures / articles? I haven't seen anything.
@@corystansbury technically the description "each torque converter connected to a different gear ratio" is not correct, this transmission is fully hydraulic the only gearing used is for power distribution (not to get different gear ratios)
the first torque converter handles lower speeds, its made for very high torque multiplication and its efficiency is low because its always slipping quite a lot in order to get that high torque multiplication, so as speed increases a second torque converter is filled (with oil) to assist the first one (they are mechanically interconnected, they use the same shaft) this has the benefit of lowering the slippage and increasing efficiency acting kinda like a "second gear" (this converter is designed to be not so "loose"), finally there is a regular fluid coupling (not a torque converter so no torque multiplication) also interconected to the other two torque converters(same shaft), when this coupling is filled the transmission is basically in "direct gear" there is no torque multiplication but there is very little slippage meaning high efficiency
all of this is pure hydraulics there is no "different gears" in the traditional sense
a link with great diagrams: translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=scbist.com/gidroperedachi/source/d2_3.htm
@@danielpk6725 Seems to me they probably just heard it from someone and decided to play telephone with it lol. Gotta love TH-cam "experts", eh? lol
@@danielpk6725 fascinating!
Sounds a bit like the Hydramatic Slim Jim transmission.
"Neigbouring Finland" well, not really, as you'd have to go through Denmark and Sweden.
In Germany the class 200 Diesel hydraulics lasted into the 80s, and the class 218 from the 60s is still in limited service today. The issues with the hydraulic drive have more or less been solved, allowing the locomotives to perform in a variety of tasks that would otherwise require a six axle locomotive. Tasks include pulling long distance Intercitys and regional trains, as well as shunting and heavy freight, and pulling broken down ICEs.
Over here Hydraulics are still being built, mainly with the intention of running heavy trains over lines with limited axle loads without the need for a heavier six-axle locomotive, or for tasks which feature lots of shunting or inclines (basically everything you need a lot of tractive effort for). In Europe in general train companies have moved away from six axle designs, as those apparently cause a lot more wear on the rails. This means that even our 7,000+ horsepower electric freight locomotives have only four axles, and that the advantages of a hydraulic transmission justify the increased maintenance costs.
East Germany had its own line of diesel hydraulics - V100 (de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-Baureihe_V_100) and V180 (de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-Baureihe_V_180) - for the most wide spread. (sorry no English Wikipedia) The Comecon later decided that only Russia and Romania should build Diesel units - so they make the East German Reichsbahn buy Russian rolling stock - which is Diesel electric - as the Russians look to America - probably for the same reasons as described in the video: more robust towards temperature, moisture - large distances ...
what heavey trains
What issues with the hydraulic gear? I've worked on the railways for quite a while now, and never ran across a leaking or broken Voith gearbox, except for one, but that engine was in a very bad state anyway. As I understand, and I'm not an expert on US railways by any means, the issue where the Maybach motors that were not up to the conditions. Maybe, if SP had fitted some GM engines instead, the whole concept might have worked better?
Diesel hydraulics are however used in Denmark which is in fact a neighbor to Germany.
@MURICA Denmark? Try Poland & Russia.
In the 60s, I had a Rivarossi A-A D&RG Krauss-Maffei locomotive set. Ran very well, but there were no Mountains on my 4X8 plywood!
And Rivarossi had swapped out the hydraulics for a traction motor, lol.
@@deadfreightwest5956 And kicked out the diesel emgine.
Although the drive was poor (3 pole motor with gearing that made it run a bit faster than anything this side of the rubber band drive Athearns), the detail of those 1960s shells still holds up today. I'd fancy a rerun!
I was lucky enough to find one in SP colors in a hobby shop a couple of months ago. Internally, it shows its age, but it runs fine and looks the part!
The traction motors did not wear out because of the multiple units but because of the heavy trains they were pulling. Also the locomotives were expected to come up to road speed quickly which is what horsepower is all about. This creates high amperage situations that cause the electric traction motors overheat. This is the reason for the amp gauges in the cabs and the short time rating tables found with them.
The real problem in the early sixties was transition control. The higher horsepower means that at some point the voltage is higher than the amps creating an opportunity for flashover. Think path of least resistance. This is dangerous thus is controlled by traction motor field shunting and switching from series parallel to full parallel.
The higher the horsepower the more complex the transition system becomes and the certainty of failure. Add in the training of the electrician and time for diagnostics what you get is a unit that is out of service longer.
What changed?
The AR or alternator rectified to DC keeps the need for complex transition control to a minimum.
Before anyone starts to negate this they should stop and think.
This is what I do for a living.
They may school me only if they can identify these labels and identify their functions.
FTR, BTR, S, P, IR, FSC, BF, SF, Barco, BSLC, TSM, ORS, TRCS?
Believe me, I love getting to see comments like this because it shows that people within the industry are paying attention. If this video gets remade in some form or fashion, your feedback will be included. Thanks so much for your input!
Feed the Railroad, Borrow the Rails, Snek, Pew, Icy Rails, Fun Strange Cars, Big Foot, Barco the First, Big Steam Loco Cars, Trains Super Munch, Orbital Radio Signal, Traction Rod Constant Strain
I win it didn't say they had to be correct.
Traction motors do NOT like eating diesel exhaust and that's exactly what was blown into them in the tunnels. You can carbon-plate the hell out of them.
@@prjndigo What do carbon plates do?
@Common Sense Realist dc largest downside is maintenance of commutators and carbon dust from brushes fouling/ grounding motors. Ac is mower maint but lacked the low speed drag ability due to being asynchronous (slip of rotor rpm to the rotating field rpm in motor). They were good only down to certain rpm, then slip losses were too great below maybe 30 hz (estimate), and you damaged motor by essentially stalling it and current burned it up. When ac drive technology became capable of Flux vector control...or synchronous control, .the low end drag ability (low rpm) control down to zero rpm became possible.
7:55, in Finland, the Dv12 is still in active use and they were produced between 1963-1984, being the most popular diesel-hydraulic locomotive in the country. Not as powerful as in the US, but very reliable, even the oldest ones.
Remember the SP enjoyed overloading engines! Higher HP to SP meant increase the tonnage. The SD24s failed only cause SP had the mentality of what I stated above. Also the company compared everything to the SD9 for tonnage. The SD24 had more power to increase speeds with the same tonnage is what EMD marketed. Yes even the SD45s were over maxed on tonnage. Not surprised on the KMs since SP had that mentality as stated above.
@Kelly Penrod Which is why you see semis pulled off the road on the first 7 miles of I-77 NB in VA from the NC state line. ;-)
There was only 4 SD24's that were leased,not owned,to Southern Pacific which were EMDX demonstrators.They operated just fine and were officially purchased by Union Pacific when they already owned 30 SD24A's & 45 SD24B's.
Also,the SD45's much like the SDP45's,SD45T-2's,FP45's,and SD45M's were already problematic units because of continous crankshaft failure and block flex.
167/358 SD45's became SD45R's just because of those problems.
In later years 87/133 SD40M-2 rebuilds from MK Rail were all formerly SD45R's with 12 of the units having GP40-2/SD40-2 fabricated radiators on the rear.
The only good that came out of the 45 series was EMD not screwing up a single thing when the GP40-2's & SD40-2's in production,which became one of their last greatest series before the company began to decline.
The technical solution to the traction motor problem was the AC drive, but this had to wait on the development of high power solid state inverters.
I had no idea these existed. That you for posting. As a fan of the SP, you'd think I knew something about them, but now I do.
Well, not many were assembled. They were known as "damn krauts" due to problems mainly with the cooling system.
However, I like these, too. Beautiful engines.
One of these is also being rebuilt
I worked for a company that used Krauss Maffei plastics extrusion equipment. Very high quality and built like a tank!!
Actually EMD built their first 4000+ hp locomotive in 1970. The SD45X. It had 4200 hp from a 20 cylinder 645 engine. 6 went to the Espee (SP) and 1 was retained by EMD as a text vehicle. Montreal Locomotive works built one also. the M640. It has 4000 hp from a 18 cylinder 251 Alco designed engine. It was built in 1971.
Actually,there was 7 SD45X's built.
4 SD45X's originally were EMDX demonstrators (4200-4203) before becoming acquired by Southern Pacific while they already owned 3 SD45X's (9500-9502).
In later years when MK Rail was doing rebuilds for them,one of the SD45X's became a SD45XM using the long hood portion of a scrapped EMD DD35B.
3 SD45X's at that became the testbed units with the "elephant ears" just like the GP40X's when they were dealing with the overheating problems in long tunnels.However,those giant pieces on the radiators caused turbelence in the tunnels so the idea was discontinued.Obviously the SD40T-2's & SD45T-2's were introduced right after that.
You know, over in the uk, we have some diesel hydraulic high speed trains called the class 180 adelante, which like these had quite a few faults
The British Rail Class 52 was a class of Type 4 diesel-hydraulic locomotives built for the Western Region of British Railways between 1961 and 1964, and 74 were built. They were all named using the prefix 'Western'. Whilst successful in service, they were not very long lived, lasting a dozen or so years each. Several still run on preserved heritage railways in the UK.
@@frglee yes this is true, there was also the class 35 and 42
@@frglee I rode many miles on the W.o.E. mainline behind 52's. From the punters point of view, they were fantastic locos. I'm one of those idiots that stood by the window in the vestibule at the head end, just to hear that glorious music.
With the wind in the right direction you could hear them climbing Erlestoke bank a good five miles away. Not quite so popular with the railway ops dept though...
Most of the UKs DMU fleet are Diesel Hydraulics.
Congratulations PLA on getting the 9010 running! I used to volunteer for the GGRM and I remember seeing this locomotive in your shed being worked on, rebuilt and painted. I remember there was a gentleman that actually owned this locomotive and was doing some amazing restoration on this machine. I wish I was there to actually see this run but this video caught my eye and I do remember it. Exceptional job and again major congratulations for getting this unit back on the road. If I get back to California and Niles Canyon I will certainly come by your yard for a tour. Major Congratulations!!
Did I miss it, or did the video fail to mention (or gloss over) the introduction of KM hood units, as oppos
ed to the cab units?
This was a very nicely detailed and animated history of a little known diesel engine here in the US. Job well done! Subscribed.
Thanks! Welcome aboard!
@@HighIroncan you tell me the music in the intro I enjoy it
A bit of a correction. The Alco C855, EMDs DD35s and 40s, and GEs U50s technically did beat the ML4000C'C's dual engine combined horsepower output. As for Single Engine output exceeding 3999HP, credit I believe goes to the Kestrel in the UK, and between the M640 and SD45X in North America.
Fair to compare the EMD DDs, GE U50s, and Alco C855, as the KMs were dual engine as well. The KMs didn't need double the shop space when they came in for service, though!
I love the way this is done. It doesn't seem like a history lecture. And he uses a train sim to make the videos. It's really nice to see something unique like this.
My Grandpa retired from GE in the early 80s. He operated a machine that wound copper wire on motors for diesel electrics.
The last unit on the Espee suffered from a broken drive shaft not a broken axle. The 4000s had a problem with the U joint on these drive shafts breaking that you didn't mention.
The diesel-hydraulics in principle are a sound design, but like anything else they should be well matched to the expected service duty. The K-M maintenance requirements and logistics were unique too, thus more headaches. Espee's purchase seems poorly vetted, like buying a Mercedes Benz sedan to tow a trailer over mountain passes or a Ford truck for autobahn driving. Who knows, sometimes sales reps have cool trinkets to tempt potential clients with.
lol you picked ford truck and Mercedes both notorious for poor quality...
You really got a point. Every car maker had trouble when entering the german market (french, american, japanese), because in germany there is one specific situation not found anywhere else in the world. Driving on the Autobahn.
Which means, no speed limit, so people often just floor it, and go full throttle as fast as their car may get for long periods of time.
@@denzzlinga long periods at bigh rpms is one of the easiest tests for manufacturing. starting and stopping does immensely more damage. to be fair the average speeds on the faster parts of the autobahn are 88mph. its pretty average for an american commute on the interstate... its not a road made out of gold and apache helicopters.
@@denzzlinga not sure if you know kph to mph but the autobahn is not daytona. if we let people speed down that road uncontrollably there would be alot more accidents. bout 130-140 is where most people lose control. these are factory vehicles with little to no aero. you wann play fast and loose start weaving that six lane traffic. take a family with yah...
@@SavageZebra67 88 mph is kind of comfortable cuizing speed. I really meant full throttle. Back in the day that was something over 100 mph, and the japanese and american cars weren´t designed for that, so they overheated and suffered other problems.
I mean driving at that point, where aerodynamic drag prevents the car from getting any faster, despite going full throttle.
And yes, we do that in germany on the autobahn. And expect cars to withstand it.
Freiburg - Karlsruhe for example is 80 miles, without any permanent speed limit, so if traffic allows (at night or on early sunday morings), you can go full throttle there for a period of about 45 minutes.
I saw 9010 in Niles Canyon! The best part was the runby in Verona!
At the end of the video it's pulling only three cars but still needs help from a GP . . . !
Germans seem to have had a thing for making...well overly complex mechanical things huh lol
It's in the Germans DNA
As a lad with German heritage, I can confirm xD
mechanical and interesting things like the rail gun
As a German, yes, why use electricity when hydraulics or mechanics can do the job as well!
Seriously, if you haven't heard about the Mercedes 600, look it up. Automatic windows, tailgate, everything was done using hydraulics. Meaning that as soon as something broke, it was an absolute nightmare, though luckily that didn't happen often.
Yeah that sounds about right.
D&RGW also had a few of the Krauss Maffei Locomotives, in fact i got to ride on one of the last passenger trains that was pulled by them before Amtrak took over. Denver to Glenwood Springs Colorado and back
Not a chance. Rio Grande sold all theirs to the SP a decade earlier. I think you mean Alco PA. Besides, Rio Grande opted out of Amtrak, preferring to keep running its Rio Grande Zephyr long after Amtrak came into being.
D&RGW didn't like theirs and sold them off to the SP. I saw these in operation in mid 1960 or 61 goiing over Tennesse Pass. Neat lookling engines.
@@Greatdome99 yeah your right it was probably pa units
@@joeldunsmore5159 Could have been an Alco PA or EMD F9-A #5771. DRGW's PAs were retired by 1967
The B&LE had rebuilt SD-45T tunnel motors running right next to my house in the 2000's & they were awsome!
Another wonderful video y'all! Learning about one of America's most unconventional locomotives was certainly a treat!
Fascinating.
More diesel locomotive history please.
Interesting looking locomotive. Streamliner cab, and maintenance friendly engine house. It's nice to hear of a unique technology that got a shot, and almost made it. Other locomotives had trouble with long tunnels on the mountainous western runs. Maybach knew how to build good engines, the namesake of the company was one of the first internal combustion engine designers in the world, Karl Maybach. He was Gottlieb Daimler's engine designer for the first gasoline buggy. Maybach was eventually absorbed into MTU, who makes some of the best large diesels in the world.
Agreed
Southern Pacific,Cotton Belt,and Denver Rio Grande Western finally solved the overheating problems from long tunnels and mountains during 1972-1980 when the EMD SD40T-2's & SD45T-2's were manufactured.312 SD40T-2's surpassed 247 SD45T-2's.
Before that was official,there was 7 SD45X's built during 1970 or 1971 that Southern Pacific dealt with.4 SD45X's were EMDX demonstrators while the other 3 SD45X's were ordered by Southern Pacific before the demonstrators also became apart of their roster.
These units just like the GP40X's had the "elephant ears" attached to the radiator portions on the long hood while covering the walkways.
The idea worked but the main issue was the cause of turbelence in the tunnels so it was discontinued thus having EMD debut the tunnel motors.
Sounds like the problems weren't with the hydraulic transmissions so much as the Maybach engines that were built more for performance than reliability and low operating expenses. Though compact high performance engines were needed to fit so much power in one locomotive. Brings to question how much of the trouble, as well as how much of the appeal, was from the hydraulic transmission versus the engines, and if one of those could have found more success without the other? I imagine this probably happens a lot, where a promising new technology is used in conjunction with something else that causes problems, causing the new technology to get a bad reputation and never live to it's potential, even though said idea wasn't at fault and could have had potential if troublesome aspects it was coupled to were traded out.
SP also bought 3 C643DH Diesel Hydraulics from Alco. This addressed the problem with the Maybach engines, but as history has shown, the Alco prime mover wasn't the best of the remaining 3 US builders, either. Alco was serious about using the Voith transmission, though. GE had supplied all the electricals for Alco, but by this time, had become a competitor. Alco had to get out from under relying on it's competitor for a major subsystem of their locomotives.
I knew of these locos, but didn't know anything about diesel-hydraulics. Very interesting!
I've worked for a company called kraus maffei in Michigan. They made all sorts of stuff. Mostly plastic pellets for injection molds in that specific building. But had an entire industrial park in that area so I'm sure they used them for their own presses.
This was really good! I hope you make similar videos in the future!
Interesting video I had never even heard of the diesel hydraulic engines
I heard these units when they first went through Banning,Cal, they woke me up and I chased them to Redlands,
Ca that morning then chased them back down as far as Indio the next day. Very different sound!
Great vid. Budd RDC's are also diesel - hydraulic and they were very successful.
Great history lesson on the SP and experimental motive power- thanks!
Interesting video, I myself and never heard of this technology.
This is one of the best episodes for a locomotive review I have ever seen! Great music, great visuals, great... EVERYTHING! This is a solid 10 on my list.
There is one that still exists 9010 still runs tourist operations but the engine it self did not work so a engine behind it had to push it but now 9010 is in the shops were the workers are planning to get its engine running again for the first time
Never knew about these. This was a super interesting video!
The locomotive on2:13 is one of three produced in Germany for Yugoslav railways(JŽ-ЈЖ)in 1960.Although they have performed well Yugoslav railways bought more than 200 diesel electric
locomotives from General Motors.
The joy I felt when I saw that it was restored made me burst in to joyous laughter
Yay more videos like this!
god damn that shot of the sp gp9 makes me want to buy it from jointed rail
They were a great idea but not for our conditions. Nice video, good animations. Thanks
Doc Phillips basically they were great light duty engines. Would be like taking Amtrak diesels and using them for freight service. They can handle light passenger trains like these locomotives but would break down constantly if forced to pull heavy freight trains.
Interesting....I didn't know about the hydraulic locomotives..
Learn something every day 👍
An excellent video. Hello from the Tracy Mountain Railway in Colorado. ♡ T.E.N.
Very nice graphics! I really liked the looks of those original ML4000's. What a shame none survived for us to see.
Are there any HO models available?
@@douglasallen511 Original ML4000 models were made by AHM/Rivarossi back in the 1960's in plastic. They show up on feebay. The last class of hood style engines were imported in brass by Overland Models. I don't know of any others. The ALCo version may have been imported by Overland too and I think they did the camera car version.
@@rogerhuber3133 thanks for the info.
Finally Germany has understood the respective advantages of hydraulic and electric drivetrains. Except for the Voith Maxima which is offered by torque converter manufacturer Voith and sold in rather homoeopathic numbers the "big" ones built new by Bombardier (TRAXX), Siemens (Vectron, previously EuroRunner) and Stadler Euro (designed and previously built by Vossloh) are diesel electric. Mainly because they can build them basically identical to the electrics and just have to put in either a transformer or a prime mover. Okay, very simply said, but modular design plays a major role and results in competitive prices. And the manufacturers even offer retrofitting existing diesels with electric overhead power equipment and vice versa during overhauls.
DMU, up to the 628 class in the 80es and 90es also diesel hydraulic, tend to become more and more diesel electric, either for modular design reasons or in the future probably as hybrids running electric on the main line and then lowering the pantograph and running on diesel on the branch line. The rest becomes diesel mechanic with truck or bus drivetrains for cost reasons.
Diesel hydraulics have a fixed place in low speed low load service, i.e. switching and road switching. Not only is Voith's Gravita much more successful than its bigger brother but was also facing diesel hydraulic competition until recently by Vossloh (locomotive plant sold to a Chinese company).
So while there is a good reason for using diesel hydraulic in switching and road switching service, it is fair to say that mainline diesel hydraulics are dead also in Germany. The last 218 class units will disappear soon and maybe find their final jobs with track building companies, the Voith Maxima is far from a best seller and diesel electrics offer price advantages due to their electric counterparts of modular design with identical parts.
The advantage of the hydraulic transmission was that all driving wheels were locked in sync, so they could get much higher tractive effort than the electrically-driven axles. But the limitations of an engine that wasn't designed to run all day at full throttle was the big issue.
But each truck was independent of the other.
Now that's a legendary locomotive
"Notorious" would be a better word.
More like a "Legendary" Euro Flop.
Yeah, wouldn't going fully electric have solved all the problems.
A nice documentary style almost review kinda thing, very nice indeed! 9,7/10
The ML4000s where also produdeced for Brazil (as estated in video), for the metric gauge (1000mm/3ft3in) Vitória à Minas Railroad (EFVM), they were supperseded in mainline duty by the EMD DDM45 a SD45 sitting on D-D trucks, a number of ML4000s lasted here until the late 90s on MoW and shunting jobs, they were finally stowed away in the early 2000s when large numbers of former american railroads C36-7s began to arrive and be converted to BB36-7s.
Hi Fernando, you say some were stowed away, do you know if any still exist in any state of repair as this may lead to some interesting possibilities.
@@andrewvenn3021 the known unit was sighted and photographed in the mid to late 2000s, sitting in a shed at the shops in terrible condition, after that theres nothing. No records of scrapping, no records of movement, they just disappeared. Some believed at least one unit is stored somewhere.
@@fernandomarques5166 Many thanks for the reply.
Neighboring Finland? I´ve lived in Sweden my entire life and always thought there were several countries in between Germany and Finland...
Glad the ending was good for that engine, I also happen to drive a Hydraulic loco in the Philippines and its usefull for flooded areas where our GE locomotives cant pass through. Great video.
Wait wait pnr has hydraulic locos?
@@louierenault7344 Yes the PNR bought this brand new from Indonesia, three locomotives actually.
Diesel hydraulic is still used quite a bit in North America. They are mostly in passenger dmu’s, like the toronto union pearson connector train.
There is alot more hydraulics out there then people realize and they are all over the world. But they are in the form of diesel multiple units
budd diesel railcar
@@burroaks7 there is alot more then that
The Class 628 for example from Germany is a pretty successful diesel hydraulic MU which has been exported to several countries and is still in service on regional lines. It's a neat little DMU but it's loud as hell.
Such as in Australia. DH locos also operated successfully across Australia on branch line and in shunting roles for decades, and operate to this day in narrow gauge industrial service.
@@hedgehog3180 the problem with the 628 is that they tried to make it more efficient by only building it with one engine. It’s a double rail car. All other doubles before and after it had two. One per half. The 628 is a little underpowered. It takes a long time to get up to its top speed. And it has huge problems with its speed on steeper lines. Also it is not heavy enough to create the required traction. I am on 628 trains nearly every day. I really like them, but it is time we get newer trainsets like for example Siemens desiro’s on my local line. The 628 will be in service until at least 2024 on my local line.
Good video here. I wondered what happened to those engines. Well, now I know.
I read a number of articles in "Trains" that said the maintenance was a big issue.
Great video and thank you for the shout out,,,,, KM ML4000's (BTVFD) which is my Trainz id and the SP U33C models are made by Mchawkman .
2:27 It is unconvetional by American Standerds. As a German, I can firmly say that it's more than convetional over here and Diesel-Electric started to become popular in the Late 90's in Europe
And the Locomotive the SP version was based of of ws the V300 (Br. 230), which was the stronger and larger sister of the V200 (Br. 220).
I have personaly worked on one, very nice locomotive
The Eastern Reichsbahn saw the Russian (or Lugansk = Ukraine ) built "Taiga Drum" Dieselelectrics which came in two marks - one M62 with DC and the later, still in service with 3phase AC.
maybe in germany, but look abroad. Everyone else got diesel-electric locos since the end of WWII.
The UK got a lot of classes of diesel electric locos, the french too, eastern europe too, and the rest got tons and tons of EMD locomotives in all shapes and sizes (Nohabs etc).
You mean to tell me that a video made by an American about American's use of diesel hydraulics will have an.......... American perspective?
Mind... absolutely blown.
About Grrmany:
There were a lot of issues with the early post war diesel hydraulic engines. They weren't fixed up until the mid 60s. Then diesel hydraulic transmission indeed became a very reliable technology.
And Germany isn't neighboring Finland.
it is "neighboring" just not in the strictest sense.
The V-160 Family with a bunch of models (BR- 210, BR-210.4 BR-215, BR-216, BR-217 BR-218, BR-219 and BR-225) is still used on some trains.
But almost all except for the BR-218 are mostly used in freight, if they weren't rebuild to the BR-218.
Alle are dieselhydraulics.
I see the BR-218 on nearby Mainline during rush hour with a set of double decker cars.
But they are phased out by electrification on passanger lines or are replaced by DMUs.
On freight they are being replaced by the diesel electric BR-245 (Bombardier Traxx).
But I still we see them for a few years at least.
If you lived in 1960 then these would look very futuristic. It is nice to know that 9010 is still operating!
There are some pretty harsh conditions running the TransCon. Add to that the length of trains that are being run and the speeds they are being run at any weaknesses will show. They just run them hard here.
Man, i have always been interested at diesel hydraulic engines, not only for their strenght but for coolness.
Nice job!
The unusual locomotives are my favorite ones.
Can these actually run in multiple with diesel-electric locos ?!
They used to.
Hello, I repair and modernize such Krauss Maffai locomotives in Germany.
There were 2 hydraulic converters, one for each direction of travel. Behind the hydraulic converter there is a 3 stage gearbox that switches automatically with a centrifugal governor. Behind the transmission, the drive is routed to the axles via cardan shafts.
The US locomotives suck the air for the engine at the top of the roof. The German locomotives were not built for long tunnels. They sucked the air in at the side. Therefore, the engines in the tunnel got a lot of exhaust instead of fresh air and lost power until they failed.
One of the 3 first locomotives in USA had a problem with a wheel bearing. I know one of the German Krauss Maffay attendants very well and have worked with him.
if I may ask a question: as I understand it, the ML4000 is roughly equivalent to the V200, now, I did a bit of research and my research said the the V200s got replaced in the 80s by new KM units but it never specified which models were their successors, so what replaced the V200s?
They should have tried twin Deltics: 6600hp at 200 tons... in 1962
Awesome video Brian! The ML4000 is my second favorite American diesel, the first favorite being the TrainMasters. You should do a video like this on Union Pacific's Diesel Giants, like the GTEL's, the DD35's and DD40's, and the U50's.
02:16 : Like the Erdal anvertising. Erdal is a shoe polish and they used the shiny loco as the feature 😃
Nice! I had fun with you at NCTM on Saturday!
Nice video. I'm glad to hear that at least one of them is back in operation, they have a really unique look to them. I have one from AHM in HO and sadly it didn't run worth a darn either, LOL, so I re powered it with an Athearn drive train, not quite original in looks any more, butit runs.
7:50 what about the DDA40X
Good point!
The DDA40X and the DD35 were both expensive choices to make. Not to mention the size of them too. So that's why SP had very little DD35s and no DDA40X's
Those models are basically two engines on one frame. Essentially, “diesel big boys”.
@@HotShotDesigns3D Sampled 3 DD35s and 3 U50s. Decided having to dedicate two shop bays anytime they needed service was too much. Crews hated the U50 because of the ride, and how far the cab stuck over on curves. Not to mention vulnerability at grade crossing accidents.
Yo you forgot about Baldwins RP-210 diesel hydraulics' for the new york central?
Diesel-Hydraulic in Britain powers Diesel Multiple Units (DMUs) and very few locos, and most other locomotives are Diesel-electric.
DMUs all around the world are Diesel-Hydraulic including in the US
We still use heaps of diesel hydraulics for 2ft cane lines in australia, short distances, low speeds and not many hills so they work nicely
7:58Finland neighbouring Germany... American ignorance is everlasting and solid
if you don't take neighbouring in he strictest sense the isn't wrong.
I was thinking, straight hydraulic drive would offer no buffering between the drive and the driven. That is an advantage of electric. The torque converter is a perfect solution. Hydraulic drives are best for slower speeds with less shock loads!
But if your country often gets flood diesel hydraulic is better options
You deserve a million subscribers
I had no idea Krauss Maffei made locomotives, I always thought of them as a defence contractor, as they had manufactured roughly a few thousand Leopard 2 main battle tanks for the West German Army
they've been making engines for just about every vehicle on the planet! Locomotives, Tanks, Aircraft and many more!
it's just you never hear them referred to as a locomotive manufacturer because Germany has nationalized railways so they are called (in the Ml4000's European counterpart's case) DB class V200
Very good video
I wasn’t sold til I heard Mercedes Benz 😂
Great informative video
I would imagine that rising fuel costs would have done them in eventually if they hadn’t had the other troubles. Hydraulic transmission cannot match the efficiency of electric transmission.
Brazilian railway EFVM (Estrada de Ferro Vitória-Minas, Vitoria-Minas Railroad) had a fleet of 16 metre-gauge Krauss-Maffei ML4000, all based from SP and Rio Grande units. These locomotives were used on very heavy ore trains as an powerful alternative for EMD G16 machines. Unfortunately, the wheels were slipping so hard that the rails suffered extensive damage and maintenance was more complicated than that of diesel-electric locomotives.
EFVM scrapped all Krauss-Maffei machines during Seventies and ask EMD for a metre-gauge version of its most powerful diesel-electric locomotive. The result was the mighty EMD DDM45, a metre-gauge SD45 with D-D wheel arrangement and the same Flexcoil frame used on UP DD35! Nowadays, some DDM45 are still in operation.
RENFE Spain had a fairly reliable little 4 axle link-rod hydraulic switcher.
RENFE also had the Talgo DH BB locomotives classes 350 , 352 354 and the regular DH class 340 based on the DB V200 BB, all built by KM
I love how you can undeniably make out the typical German cab design, with the slanted sides and windscreen.
Biggest issue it seems is that while it made a lot of hp it wasn’t suitable for pulling heavy freight trains. I’m sure it would have made an excellent passenger locomotive though. And ironically that’s what The restored unit is now being used for. Passenger trains are so much lighter and it would have been a very reliable locomotive if used for that.
Excuse my ignorance but what is the Number of that Chicago & Northwestern Unit standing across from CB&Q E5A #9911A?
Check 1:27
CNW 411, Ex Metra 305 Currently residing at Illinois Railway Museum, Union, Illinois.
HustleMuscleGhias 411 is an F7A right?
@@chafanonash3418 Yes.
this is a amazing video
The video depicts the story of the ML4000 and its problems in North America well. But one error slid in, the MD 870 was never used in zeppelins, as the MD engine family was only developed after zeppelins fell out of favour after the Hindenburg disaster. Their main field of use were marine and rail applications, and MTU still has a modern version of this engine in its portfolio.
I have to agree that it is a complicated engine, I worked on them a couple of times. Being an engine much smaller and higher revving than the EMD and GE engines, the thermal load is also quite larger on them, and yes, they don't like very hot air and ingesting their own exhaust as it eats away quite some power and does make them run hot. We experienced this when we had the air intakes moved from the exterior of the Hymek class locomotive at our preserved railway in the UK to the inside using bucket filters ans thus the engine was inhaling hot air from the engine room.
Thanks for all your knowledge.....
I apply it to my G scale layout 👍
I enjoyed the footage from the Illinois Railway Museum
and UP overcame the horsepower asthma with brute force the bird cookers
Excellent video. Regarding the UK models (35, 52’s) I believe their fall was being non standard? As far as I know, they did work well, but weren’t given a chance by the larger BR system. However, I could be wrong.
yes, the Diesel Hydraulics in Britain were one of several things that was a "rebellion" against the rest of BR by the Western devision (the former Great Western Railway), Ironically, these Diesel Hydraulics were often much better then the Diesel Electrics used by the rest of BR
0:22 Woah where's that F7 from? I can't find them on JR
Talk only about the prime mover. I thought it was about "hydraulic".
Some technical info's about the hydraulic system itself will have been nice and in tune with the title of the video.
they mention it in the video, the Hydraulic transition just means that the motor itself near directly powers the wheels (because it is an automatic transmission)
If you don’t mind me asking, where did you get these models? These look absolutely amazing and I wanna see if I can download these! :D
The KMs look like the ones BTVFD put on the Trainz DLS. Not sure about the Uboat, and all the EMDs are from Jointed Rail.