People really overreact about K+T, it’s fine. Put some gfci receptacles in there, put the no equipment ground stickers on, and for additions, just splice the K+T to modern wiring in a Jbox. Also, it’s perfectly legal to abandon the K+T in the walls and just run new wire-you don’t have to “remediate” K+T like it’s made of plutonium or something. The plaster walls are more of a pain than some K+T.
Donald, when you guys are done doing your Cadillac job on that house, that house's value is probably going to increase by at least close to the amount of the cost of the job, and maybe even more in some markets! You guys and your work honor those old houses and the craftsmen and tradesmen who built them all of those years ago.
Dan E. Boyd Thanks Dan, Tradesmen installed the work, I train mechanics to be tradesmen once more. They learn to honor and respect the work and themselves for that matter. The ones that understand become masters at there craft by not taking short cuts, quality always comes first. Overcoming the temptation to take short cuts is difficult for everyone at first.
@@DonaldMillerElectric The good work never gets seen, but the the shortcuts will sometimes BEG to be seen... I think you should throw in some more dedicated plaster videos every so often - please.
Hello Donald, Damn I wish I was lvg out ur way, I'd really like to work for you. Old homes are built with a charm that will never be duplicated and your respect for them by knowing how to plaster is great. It is great to know there are ppl who love their work and have pride in the job they do.
Cool videos. Old knob and tube is also my area of operation. They where occupied, I did them for county community action in northern Ohio, they would insulate the homes for low income residents but it would have to be brought up to code and safe to insulate. Most I wouldn’t walk through the front door for less than 10k. It’s a lot of work for a very professional job as your describing. Peace and God Bless bro
I don't know what part of the country you are in but I was installing knob and tube in the Cleveland, Ohio area in the early 1960s. As far as the ground goes, we started to install a green wire at that time and that 's what killed knob and tube because it added a third more to the cost of installation and each jurisdiction had their own way of splicing the grounds. We used TW wire and even ran #12 for kitchen outlets. Splices were soldered and taped with rubber and fabric tape and since the splices were in the line, boxes were free of splices.
Hi Donald, this video is great. I'm looking to buy a house in Alaska right now. The attic is full of knob and tube - now I know the whole house is full of it. Thanks.
Yeah, $20K seems to be the magic estimate for my house. I never got far enough in the estimate process to see if it was "line item" or a guarantee of remediation. In both cases, "patching" was not included. I have taken care of issues on the third floor because I could come down from the attic, and most of the first floor coming up from the floor. It is the second floor that is still a mess. I'm going to have to tackle some of this myself, so will study your "fishing" videos some more. That's a pretty sneaky/deceptive trick, jumping the neutral to the ground stud so the checker says the receptacle is properly grounded. I have learned so many lessons "the hard way" after buying "this old house" for sure.
I once bought a 1905 home with many ungrounded outlets. Half BX wiring and half Romex. It turned out the ungrounded outlets were places the previous owner was too lazy to pigtail the ground wire on the Romex. Don't get me wrong, there's old knob and tube in the attic and probably elsewhere, but it's all been disconnected. Bring a multimeter and a screwdriver to inspections
Bx wire that has cloth conductors is considered an ungrounded system even when it tests with multimeters that there is a ground. It’s considered a false ground. With a proper knob and tube remediation, bx wire, individual cloth conductors, and 2 wire cloth conductors are all considered part of a knob and tube system because all three were used together.
I had come across this while doing lighting sor years, however with the new led recessed lights there may be no need to change from k and t to install it
Depends on what your looking for, cheapest price or best quality. There is a huge difference, I’ve seen a 1.400 get butchered for 5, then you have to decide on to what extent are they replacing the existing hardware. It comes down to what your looking for, if your lookin for cheap, you’ll find it and get what you pay for. Quality is usually described in detail and becomes customized to your needs
I’m hoping you’ll answer, I have a question. My old home has clothe wiring BUT there is no knobs or tubes anywhere in the home, basement, or walls. What are the chances someone just didn’t do it right or if it’s something different? Any insight would be awesome.
@@DonaldMillerElectric makes sense, that was something I just discussed yesterday that it could have been put in after the house was built. There is only one “wire” going to outlets, not two separate wires and there’s only 1 black wire running to a ceiling light in the hallway. Im in the middle of remodeling upstairs and deciding what to do. There are only 2 outlets in each room and no switch or ceiling lights. Thanks for your answer, wish I could share some pictures too lol.
@@tjbrower Not the first time I’ve heard no switches or fixtures. Farm houses were wired with one outlet and a sconce by the door for each room. Knob and tube was wired into homes before they knew exactly what electricity was. Prior to 1925, 25,000 people died each year from knob and tube fires. The NEC was new, guys were using alcohol torches to solder, it was the Wild West period of the history of electricity.
Try turning your phone sideways, let the camera re-orient, then start the video. Would be alot better to see full screen instead of this small window of video in the center of the screen. You'll get more of what you want to show people in the video.
I own a property that’s knob and tube on the 2cnd floor and 80’s romex on the first floor and in the unfinished basement. In the attic you can see the casing on the romex is cut back just and is wire nutted to the knob and tube. 2 bedrooms and a bathroom are all on that circuit.
Explain the asbestos and ammonia, I have yet to see any factual data on either- just urban legends Asbestos around pipes- yes for sure. But how in the plaster? All plaster before 1920 uses horse hair
wait so i cant replace say the knob and tube outlets in one room and leave the rest of it for another day? if i ever do change it out i will look into it more but thats the first i heard that.
The problem is that knob and tube has splices within floors, ceilings, and walls. With modern wiring, you should be able to disconnect parts of a circuit in a junction box, outlet box, ceiling light box, etc. With knob and tube, unless you really chop up your walls, ceilings, and/or floors, you usually can't get to the splices and you're left with disconnected but still energized wires in your wall. One exception is first floor outlets and an unfinished basement. In that case, you might have access to the splices and could disconnect the knob and tube wire that went to the outlet you rewired. Also, even if you're willing to cut holes in your ceiling, you still can have trouble disconnecting part of knob and tube. I worked on a house where I was eliminating all knob and tube and thought I was ready to cut off the wires for the first floor. I had already located the main splice point where the wire was spliced such that one pair of wires was the first floor and the second pair went upstairs. What I didn't realize was that the light at the top of the stairs had its neutral connected upstairs but the hot was connected downstairs. I cut the wires for the first floor and the light at the top of the stairs stopped working. I fixed that and again disconnected the first floor. This time, a wall light in the rear bedroom stopped working. There was an outlet on the wall of the middle room that lined up with the light on the other side of the wall and I figured the light and outlet were connected. But they weren't, and I had to rewire the light before I could leave the first floor knob and tube permanently disconnected. You really never know what you'll find. I started watching Donald's videos to learn more about knob and tube when I was working on that rewire. He really knows what he's doing.
Couldn't you just run new romex and disconnect the knob and tube from the breaker and outlets? It shouldn't be a danger if it isn't connected to anything. Sounds like unnecessary work to pick it out of the walls.
UltimaStealth It’s hidden due to previous code changes. Often it isn’t found until they go and sell their home. It’s an extensive job when dealing with larger older homes. For a 2000 sq ft house it will take 3 descent guys 2 weeks to rewire correctly.
When electricians say it's o.k. for the apprentice to back stab, that's when you want to look for another electrical contractor. backstabbing is legal because the receps and switches are made that way, BUT you're much better off wrapping the wire round the screw, then w longnose pliers tightening up the hook so the wire can't come away from the screw, sometimes someone replacing a switch or recep does not leave enough wire and they tighten up but the screw head's bottom is against the insulation, not the wire and that makes a loose or BAD connection which will result in HEAT. One of the best things an apprentice can have is the attitude of wanting to be the best in his'her trade, to take the time and do it right the first time, becuz, If u don't have the time to do it right the 1st time, how n hell u going to find time to do it right the 2nd time?
FYI: when capturing video with your cellphone ALWAYS hold it horizontal. Notice, every TV, Computer monitor, movie theater screen, and the like are all orientated horizontal as in landscape. When the cellphone video is captured vertical (portrait mode) it is as though we are looking through a keyhole or wearing horse blinders with the left and right cut off. Remember, if you used a regular camera for video capture you would never consider turning it vertical as it would not make sense.
@@DonaldMillerElectric i will say if you can get a clear path from the attic to the basement then it becomes much easier you can fish a feed up from the basement to the bottom switch then travelers back down to the basement and then up to the attic then back down to the top switch assuming basement and attic have open access
People really overreact about K+T, it’s fine. Put some gfci receptacles in there, put the no equipment ground stickers on, and for additions, just splice the K+T to modern wiring in a Jbox.
Also, it’s perfectly legal to abandon the K+T in the walls and just run new wire-you don’t have to “remediate” K+T like it’s made of plutonium or something.
The plaster walls are more of a pain than some K+T.
Yeah except that it’s tripling my bill compared to my in laws.
Donald, when you guys are done doing your Cadillac job on that house, that house's value is probably going to increase by at least close to the amount of the cost of the job, and maybe even more in some markets! You guys and your work honor those old houses and the craftsmen and tradesmen who built them all of those years ago.
Dan E. Boyd
Thanks Dan,
Tradesmen installed the work, I train mechanics to be tradesmen once more. They learn to honor and respect the work and themselves for that matter. The ones that understand become masters at there craft by not taking short cuts, quality always comes first. Overcoming the temptation to take short cuts is difficult for everyone at first.
@@DonaldMillerElectric The good work never gets seen, but the the shortcuts will sometimes BEG to be seen...
I think you should throw in some more dedicated plaster videos every so often - please.
Hello Donald, Damn I wish I was lvg out ur way, I'd really like to work for you. Old homes are
built with a charm that will never be duplicated and your respect for them by knowing how to
plaster is great. It is great to know there are ppl who love their work and have pride in the job
they do.
Cool videos. Old knob and tube is also my area of operation. They where occupied, I did them for county community action in northern Ohio, they would insulate the homes for low income residents but it would have to be brought up to code and safe to insulate. Most I wouldn’t walk through the front door for less than 10k. It’s a lot of work for a very professional job as your describing. Peace and God Bless bro
Absolutely
I don't know what part of the country you are in but I was installing knob and tube in the Cleveland, Ohio area in the early 1960s.
As far as the ground goes, we started to install a green wire at that time and that 's what killed knob and tube because it added a third more to the cost of installation and each jurisdiction had their own way of splicing the grounds. We used TW wire and even ran #12 for kitchen outlets. Splices were soldered and taped with rubber and fabric tape and since the splices were in the line, boxes were free of splices.
Thanks for the info Bob. I learned how to troubleshoot knob and tube from your generation. You guys were the last to install it professionally.
Hi Donald, this video is great. I'm looking to buy a house in Alaska right now. The attic is full of knob and tube - now I know the whole house is full of it. Thanks.
Mary Maley
100% correct, I’m glad I could help.
Yeah, $20K seems to be the magic estimate for my house. I never got far enough in the estimate process to see if it was "line item" or a guarantee of remediation. In both cases, "patching" was not included. I have taken care of issues on the third floor because I could come down from the attic, and most of the first floor coming up from the floor. It is the second floor that is still a mess. I'm going to have to tackle some of this myself, so will study your "fishing" videos some more. That's a pretty sneaky/deceptive trick, jumping the neutral to the ground stud so the checker says the receptacle is properly grounded. I have learned so many lessons "the hard way" after buying "this old house" for sure.
Fishing in plaster is a pain and there are a lot of cross braces. I just learned to plaster and cut holes to replace my wire.
Super helpful, thank you for creating this video.
Very important information. Thank you
I once bought a 1905 home with many ungrounded outlets. Half BX wiring and half Romex. It turned out the ungrounded outlets were places the previous owner was too lazy to pigtail the ground wire on the Romex.
Don't get me wrong, there's old knob and tube in the attic and probably elsewhere, but it's all been disconnected. Bring a multimeter and a screwdriver to inspections
Bx wire that has cloth conductors is considered an ungrounded system even when it tests with multimeters that there is a ground. It’s considered a false ground.
With a proper knob and tube remediation, bx wire, individual cloth conductors, and 2 wire cloth conductors are all considered part of a knob and tube system because all three were used together.
I had come across this while doing lighting sor years, however with the new led recessed lights there may be no need to change from k and t to install it
What the average cost to upgrade know and tube wiring in a 1400 sq ft 2 storey 3 bdrm 1 bathroom home
Depends on what your looking for, cheapest price or best quality. There is a huge difference, I’ve seen a 1.400 get butchered for 5, then you have to decide on to what extent are they replacing the existing hardware. It comes down to what your looking for, if your lookin for cheap, you’ll find it and get what you pay for. Quality is usually described in detail and becomes customized to your needs
I’m hoping you’ll answer, I have a question. My old home has clothe wiring BUT there is no knobs or tubes anywhere in the home, basement, or walls. What are the chances someone just didn’t do it right or if it’s something different? Any insight would be awesome.
Homes built before 1910 often were ran with cloth lumes and knobs and tubes weren’t installed because the house was already existing
@@DonaldMillerElectric makes sense, that was something I just discussed yesterday that it could have been put in after the house was built. There is only one “wire” going to outlets, not two separate wires and there’s only 1 black wire running to a ceiling light in the hallway. Im in the middle of remodeling upstairs and deciding what to do. There are only 2 outlets in each room and no switch or ceiling lights. Thanks for your answer, wish I could share some pictures too lol.
@@tjbrower
Not the first time I’ve heard no switches or fixtures. Farm houses were wired with one outlet and a sconce by the door for each room. Knob and tube was wired into homes before they knew exactly what electricity was. Prior to 1925, 25,000 people died each year from knob and tube fires. The NEC was new, guys were using alcohol torches to solder, it was the Wild West period of the history of electricity.
Try turning your phone sideways, let the camera re-orient, then start the video. Would be alot better to see full screen instead of this small window of video in the center of the screen. You'll get more of what you want to show people in the video.
I learned that after this video, thanks
I own a property that’s knob and tube on the 2cnd floor and 80’s romex on the first floor and in the unfinished basement. In the attic you can see the casing on the romex is cut back just and is wire nutted to the knob and tube. 2 bedrooms and a bathroom are all on that circuit.
You mentioned lead in the walls but there is also could be asbestos and also ammonia from the horse hair in the plaster.
Explain the asbestos and ammonia,
I have yet to see any factual data on either- just urban legends
Asbestos around pipes- yes for sure. But how in the plaster?
All plaster before 1920 uses horse hair
So what should people do if they find cloth wiring? Is it ok to reuse the wire and swap the device or does it need a rewire?
Rewire
wait so i cant replace say the knob and tube outlets in one room and leave the rest of it for another day? if i ever do change it out i will look into it more but thats the first i heard that.
Only if you keep the knob and tube energized, and even then you run the risk of further problems. We don’t do partial rewires, too much liability.
The problem is that knob and tube has splices within floors, ceilings, and walls. With modern wiring, you should be able to disconnect parts of a circuit in a junction box, outlet box, ceiling light box, etc. With knob and tube, unless you really chop up your walls, ceilings, and/or floors, you usually can't get to the splices and you're left with disconnected but still energized wires in your wall. One exception is first floor outlets and an unfinished basement. In that case, you might have access to the splices and could disconnect the knob and tube wire that went to the outlet you rewired. Also, even if you're willing to cut holes in your ceiling, you still can have trouble disconnecting part of knob and tube. I worked on a house where I was eliminating all knob and tube and thought I was ready to cut off the wires for the first floor. I had already located the main splice point where the wire was spliced such that one pair of wires was the first floor and the second pair went upstairs. What I didn't realize was that the light at the top of the stairs had its neutral connected upstairs but the hot was connected downstairs. I cut the wires for the first floor and the light at the top of the stairs stopped working. I fixed that and again disconnected the first floor. This time, a wall light in the rear bedroom stopped working. There was an outlet on the wall of the middle room that lined up with the light on the other side of the wall and I figured the light and outlet were connected. But they weren't, and I had to rewire the light before I could leave the first floor knob and tube permanently disconnected. You really never know what you'll find. I started watching Donald's videos to learn more about knob and tube when I was working on that rewire. He really knows what he's doing.
Couldn't you just run new romex and disconnect the knob and tube from the breaker and outlets? It shouldn't be a danger if it isn't connected to anything. Sounds like unnecessary work to pick it out of the walls.
UltimaStealth
It’s hidden due to previous code changes. Often it isn’t found until they go and sell their home. It’s an extensive job when dealing with larger older homes. For a 2000 sq ft house it will take 3 descent guys 2 weeks to rewire correctly.
UltimaStealth
We don’t remove it, we abandon it and rewire.
Knob and tube can be very dangerous and that's why most insurance companies won't issue policys
When electricians say it's o.k. for the apprentice to back stab, that's when you want to look for
another electrical contractor. backstabbing is legal because the receps and switches are made
that way, BUT you're much better off wrapping the wire round the screw, then w longnose
pliers tightening up the hook so the wire can't come away from the screw, sometimes someone replacing a switch or recep does not leave enough wire and they tighten up but the screw head's
bottom is against the insulation, not the wire and that makes a loose or BAD connection which
will result in HEAT.
One of the best things an apprentice can have is the attitude of wanting to be the best in his'her
trade, to take the time and do it right the first time, becuz, If u don't have the time to do it right
the 1st time, how n hell u going to find time to do it right the 2nd time?
That is a bootleg ground and dangerous as it makes metal parts of appliances electrically live
as well as possibly starting fires.
FYI: when capturing video with your cellphone ALWAYS hold it horizontal. Notice, every TV, Computer monitor, movie theater screen, and the like are all orientated horizontal as in landscape. When the cellphone video is captured vertical (portrait mode) it is as though we are looking through a keyhole or wearing horse blinders with the left and right cut off. Remember, if you used a regular camera for video capture you would never consider turning it vertical as it would not make sense.
No, the entire world lives on their phones, mostly vertically. Most people appreciate the portrait videos.
I didn't know Action Bronson was an electrician
go into the house take the first floor dining light switch plate off and find out the seller duped you in less than 30 seconds
The 1st floor to 2nd 3way is a good test switch. It’s the hardest one to rewire.
@@DonaldMillerElectric i will say if you can get a clear path from the attic to the basement then it becomes much easier you can fish a feed up from the basement to the bottom switch then travelers back down to the basement and then up to the attic then back down to the top switch assuming basement and attic have open access
What’s your contact info boss
Donald@donaldmillerelectric.com