You really should read the book this movie is based on, The Last Temptation by Nikos Kazantzakis. Regarding the end part of this film, when Jesus is helped off the cross by the little girl, this is his ‘last temptation’, his desire to be ordinary, like everyone else, to start a family, become a father, to grow old and then die living a simple life, before realising the horror of that choice (for him, and therefore the world), and then fully committing, embracing and trusting God’s way, and returning to the cross fully conscious….all of that ‘life’ he experienced between coming off the cross to getting back on, that wasn’t a physical reality, a physical experience for him. He never physically leaves the cross. His ego did, but his body never left. And to me, this a beautiful and incredible way to depict a fleeting moment of doubt and fear, and a truly inspiring representation of the idea of Christ.
As a Christian, (life-long Catholic), I found this movie inspirational for one very important reason. Near the end of the movie Jesus very old and dying. Judas, who is really pissed that Jesus didn't stick to the plan, confronts Jesus with Peter and the other apostles. Jesus tells them God said he didn't have to go through with it. "Who told you this?" they ask. "She did." pointing to the little girl/guardian angel. "That's Satan." they tell him. "If you die like this, (of natural causes), everything is lost." The realization that he has been tricked causes Jesus to plead with God to take him back. He evokes the whole prodigal son narrative. Suddenly he is back on the cross, exactly as he was just before the little girl showed up. He dies and everything that was supposed to happen happens. Jesus' entire post-crucifixtion life was an hallucination or fever dream.. What I like about the story is that the most tempting thing the devil could offer was the life that we all have. To be a normal man, with a job and a family and not have the salvation of mankind on your back. More tempting than bread to a starving man and more tempting than all the power in the world. Kind of means we are already beating the devil.
You’ve summed up my thoughts on this perfectly. I’ve asked other Christian friends to watch it, I’ve explain it’s weird and intentionally not accurate to the gospels, but most are turned off. Or they don’t finish it, and miss the point completely. Most people complain it’s blasphemous, and I guess it is, but it has to be, to make the point it’s making. It’s art, not comfort food. Go watch The Passion of the Christ, if you need warm fuzzies.
I think the movie is saying what are you willing to give up to follow GOD and his plans for your life besides not everyone needs to married with family in order to be successful in walking with GOD.Remember he told Jeremiah not to do it and reasons why was strong.
I love how Jeremy is not a Christian but he still excepts what the movie and Holden says with out rebuking it. That’s the kind of people we need people who don’t argue about everything
This movie took a large inspiration from the Gospel of Judas. I personally like this movie for the portrayal of Jesus as an unconfident mortal who just happened to be chosen as the son of God, having his conflicts of thoughts and beliefs, as a true man of free will, which was a little unsolid and undescribed topic in the bible. I think many people have misunderstood the intention of this film since it's not really about a film of Jesus, but a man who chose to become a being with God inside of him.
I love how Holden is not an atheist but he still accepts what the movie and Jeremy says without rebuking it. That’s the kind of people we need; people who don’t argue about everything.
It's a powerful movie. About his temptation from the desert to the cross. At the end Satan tempts shows him what his life could of been, Mary included, If he didn't accept the cross. At end he accepts the cross. I don't think you guys on here got it at all. I read the book too it helped. It was done in novel like form
I am Catholic and this is one of my favourite movies. By humanising Jesus it allows us to better understand the man and not just the God. It allows us to appreciate and love him more if that is even possible. Then again, I also love Life of Brian and Dogma so…😂😂😂
He said that the Jesus in this movie is a sinner, but I didn’t see that as much. From the Bible you can easily see that Jesus was conflicted about being crucified. I’m not a Christain so maybe I’m able to step back and look at this film without that knowledge even though I grew up as a Christain.
@@zakstarkiller1850 exactly, in the beginning of the movie when he’s talking about being a hypocrite and all that, I thought that was honestly really cool. Because if Jesus did exist he wouldn’t be this arrogant guy that thought of himself as perfect, at least that’s what I like to think.
@@noelvaldez96 I agree 100% In Christian theology there's this idea that Jesus was 100% God and 100% human. If we forget that Jesus was 100% human, then we're missing the point
You guys should consider watching First Reformed. An absolute masterpiece by Paul Shrader, who also wrote this film, Taxi Driver and Raging Bull. It stars Ethan Hawke and is honestly a spiritual experience that I think would impact you and Holden both. Holden mentioning his love for Silence makes me sure he’d enjoy it. 🙌🏻
I respect your opinions but I just watched this movie this year, and I love this movie! I didn’t see the ending as it literally happening in the narrative, but as a what if, and he never actually went off the cross but it was showing what would’ve happened if he gave in to that temptation. Also, to the movie being badly made I 100% believe it was a style choice on Martin and you guys can not like it, but I think he was trying to make the audience aware that this is just a film and not to be taken literally. The last shot is the film itself breaking up which I think is a testament to that. You may not enjoy it but I thought that was what he was going for.
I hear where you're coming from, and far be it from me to ever say that Scorsese doesn't know how to make a movie! He's one of the greatest. I think he was trying some more handheld stuff and it didn't always work, but I still respect that he takes risks. It seems that Holden and I are in the minority as the movie is critically lauded, but everything can't be for everyone. Looking back, I'm very glad I watched it, if for nothing else than seeing that cast do a Biblical epic. thanks for the comment!
I recommend the book. It goes more into why Christ is so wishywashy. It’s him battling with his humanity and divinity . Also the last temptation is just that. A fever nightmare from the cross . He never came down from the cross . Nikos the author you can tell was probably more a johova witness in his thinking. But the book is better in details and there is more biblical accurate stuff. But again nikos being more JW in his thinking he does do things on purpose to be controversial. But it turns the cross into a victory and shows how horrid humanity was and why we needed a savior.
The plot device of this movie reminded me a lot of Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge, a French short film that was also shown as a Twilight Zone episode. Taking place during the American Civil War, a Southern collaborator is about to be hung by Union troops. The rope breaks he escapes, and runs through the countryside till he gets back to his plantation-only to be suddenly back on the bridge, being hung; he had imagined the whole thing in the last few moments of his life. Also, I’ve read that Scorsese had a tremendous amount of trouble getting this movie made; he had no money, not enough crew, not enough time; pretty much everything was compromised. It’s actually amazing it got made at all.
You both should watch The Chosen together. It's a way better look at what Biblical Jesus would look like on screen. Could have some interesting discussions with you both after each episode.
Wow, I couldn't disagree with Holden more. I greatly respect that he was open-minded enough to watch it without becoming outraged but I think you guys missed the point and might benefit from listening to the commentary. To be clear, I am an atheist who was raised Catholic. One of the greatest schisms in early Christianity was in classifying Jesus as divine or mortal. The Council of Nicaea under Emperor Constantine in 325 AD codified the various strains of Christian belief that had proliferated in the centuries after Jesus' death into a single, uniform dogmatic belief system. The Gnostic sect, among others, who believed that Jesus was more a creature of the flesh than a divine being was pronounced heretical and violently purged for centuries. Furthermore, it is often said by historians and theologians that Christianity would have existed without Jesus but not without Paul aka Saul of Tarsus. Most of the unsavory aspects of modern Christianity are attributed to Paul. He was an orthodox Jew from a family of Pharisees or traditionalist Jewish elders. He persecuted any Jews who had assimilated into the Hellenized culture of the Levant post-Diaspora after Rome razed Jerusalem in 69 AD. He and his fundamentalist ilk felt they were guardians of the culture in the face of the lure of the corrupting external culture much like Hasidic Jews today. Pagan Rome was open about sexuality and nudity knowing no body shame or suppression of homosexuality. Much like fundamentalist Islam, fundamentalist Judaism is strict about interaction between genders, demonizes homosexuality and espouses body shame. The one thing both Rome and the Pharisees had in common was their patriarchy which completely subjugates women. All of this repressed prudishness crept into Christianity because of Paul who was as fervent a Christian convert as he was an orthodox Jew. As they say, there is no fanatic like a convert. As you both noted, Jesus was a bohemian hippie trafficking with the infirm, the poor, whores, lepers, beggars and laborers. Most of the Apostles were illiterate fishermen. He would not have approved of Paul's bastardization of his message or of the Edict of Nicaea. The movie portrays him as a mercurial man subject to passions, ego and delusions but with a strict sense of justice and integrity. He's compassionate and indignant and impractical. His foil is Judas who, historically speaking, was a zealot or Jewish guerilla fighter. He's a pragmatist who sees potential in Jesus but is frustrated by his lack of focus. Eventually, he becomes his truest disciple and the voice of resentment when Jesus strays from his fate. A fascinating interpretation of one of history's greatest tragic figures. In the Bhagavad-Gita section of the Indian epic The Mahabharata, as the Pandava and Kaurya forces are poised on the brink of the battle that will decide the fate of the world, Arjuna, the greatest and bravest warrior of his time, freezes with horror at the thought of slaughtering so many kinsmen. Krishna, his charioteer, stops time to reveal the great tapestry of human destiny and the meaning of all things to the awestruck demi-god. In the space of a single second called The Eternal Moment, Arjuna receives an eternity of wisdom reserved only for the gods and understands why this cataclysmic blood feud is a necessary evil. Similarly, Dafoe lives a lifetime as a humble man, confronts his greatest booster, the false prophet Paul, and is chastened by his betrayer, Judas, for not seeing things through and condemning humanity. The seraphic child is revealed as the serpent who managed, at the last, to snatch victory from defeat. Jesus had a moment of weakness in the Garden of Gethsemane when he begged God to deliver him from his painful fate. It is the most powerful moment in the Gospels because Jesus' humanity is revealed and we can identify with the man. Scorsese boldly has the Devil snatch Jesus' soul for an equivalent of The Eternal Moment and Jesus lives a lifetime in that feverish split-second. When he realizes the trick, he begs his Father for absolution and God grants it. He snaps back to awareness on the cross and, with his dying breath, Dafoe rejoices that "It is accomplished." It is a supremely moving moment and I wept when I first saw it. I can't explain the technical failings of the movie but this is as fine a piece of art as Scorsese has ever produced and a testament to selflessness, sacrifice and humanity. I also don't understand why Holden keeps calling Scorsese Irish-Catholic. As far as I know, Scorsese is as Italian as they come. His name isn't in the least bit Irish. Maybe he's trying to say Roman-Catholic? Some other religious-themed movies to see if you want to make this a series: The Rapture Frailty The DaVinci Code The Seventh Sign Noah Mother Agora The Exorcist The Mission Pilgrimage The Name of the Rose The Passion of Joan of Arc The Messenger The Life of Brian
@@JeremyGBranch I would say they should ALL happen! That's a great list of films I'd love to see your reaction to especially if neither of you have seen them before! Now that Matty is off pumping iron, you gotta be the next friend that watches, Branch! And I write all that crap and get a single sentence reply! What? Lol. I expected someone to take up fire and sword against me! Effort like that deserves a reward, Jeremy! Forward the comment to Holden at least! Or react to JOHN CARTER for the love of all that's Holy! I've been waiting a whole year! The 'Rona's gone and I'm still here like a crusty barnacle on your channel!
Here’s a reference: theconversation.com/scorseses-gods-of-the-streets-from-killers-of-the-flower-moon-to-silence-faith-is-rarely-far-off-in-his-films-223630#:~:text=Born%20in%20New%20York%20City's,Yet%20the%20church%20proved%20influential.
Could you maybe react to "The Chosen"? It is a new Show you can watch for free online. It tells the story from the view of the people back in Jesus time which met him and were healed or saved by him. Sorry for my bad English. Thank you for your Reactions! Many greetings from Europe 🙏
Ok even though neither one liked the movie that much, you both should listen to the soundtrack by Peter Gabriel. It kind of ushered in world music in the late 80s/ early 90s.
Regarding Paul's portrayal, how often must've he not have heard someone in a crowd saying he's the actual Jesus? The guy was smart and so tried to calm down the clout chasers. OR... the writer of the book and Scorsese conspired to make Paul look like a... Nestorian! Gasps, monocles dropped and shattered, one lady screams before fainting "won't somebody think of the hypostatic union"?
I saw this in theaters cuz I love Scorsese. To this day, I try to forget about it. It’s so cringe for me. But I did buy the soundtrack back in the day. I think it was by Peter Gabriel.
Islam The Beautiful Religion ( Be Just ) Quran 5:8 '' O you who believe! stand out firmly for God, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the > HATRED OF OTHERS TO YOU < make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear God. For God is well-acquainted with all that you do. '' Quran 4:58 '' Indeed, God commands you to render trusts to whom they are due and when you judge between people to judge with justice. Excellent is that which God instructs you. Indeed, God is ever Hearing and Seeing.'' ( God's The Rules Of War ) Quran 2:190 '' Fight in the way of God > THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU < but do not transgress. Indeed. God does not like transgressors. '' Quran 2 :193 '' And fight them on until there is no more oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. '' Quran 4:90 ''.........So if they withdraw from you and cease their hostility and offer you peace, in that case Allah has not granted you permission to fight against them.'' Quran 8:61 ''And if they seek peace, then you also seek it, and put your trust in God. He is the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.'' ( Stand Up For Justice ) Quran 4 :135 '' Ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against > YOURSELVES < or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.'' ( Who Are The Good Human Beings? ) Quran 2.177 '' Righteousness is "NOT" that you turn your faces ( in worship ) toward the east or the west but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in God, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth,> IN SPITE OF LOVE FOR IT,< to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for > freeing slaves < [and who] establishes prayer and gives charity; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous. '' ( Freedom To Believe And To Reject ) Quran 2:256 '' Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error '' Quran 10:99 '' And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed > all of them entirely < Then would you compel the people in order that they become believers? '' ( Tolerance For Other Religions ) Quran 109: 1- 6 Say,"O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship. Nor are you worshipers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshiper of what you worship. Nor will you be worshipers of what I worship. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." ( Protection for Idol Worshiper ) Quran 9:6 "And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are people who do not know. " Quran16:125 “Call people to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good teaching, and argue with them in the most courteous way” Quran7:199 “Be tolerant....” ( Friendship With Non Muslims ) Quran 60:8 '' God does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, God loves those who act justly. '' ( Do Christians And Jews and "OTHER" non-Muslims go to Heaven? ) Quran 2:62 '' Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,-> ANY { On Judgement Day } ( According to the Quran Christians and Jews worship TRUE God ) (Quran 3:113-114) '' Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book ( Christians and Jews ) are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.'' Note: According to the Quran that Jesus is not God nevertheless Christians still worship one '' TRUE '' God. ( > Allah < Is The Protector Of Monasteries, Churches, Synagogues And The Mosques ) Quran 22:40 [They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might. ( Why Are There So Many Different Religions In The World ? ) Quran 5 48 ''...... If God wanted He could have made all of you a > single nation < But He willed otherwise in order to test you in what He has given you;(scriptures) therefore try to excel one another in good deeds. Ultimately you all shall return to God; then He will show you the truth of those matters in which you > DISPUTE submission < to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (Salvation)'' My explanation of above verse Islam mean > submission < to God ( The above verse saying is that God will not accept a religion from the > MUSLIM < and the Non-Muslims but total > submission < to God.) Question: How Can Muslim And the > Non-Muslim < > submit < to the God ? Answer: Be kind to other human beings and Do not lie, Do not steal, Do not cheat, Do not hurt others, Do not be prideful and Do the charity work. ( God Allow Muslims To Marry And Eat Food From the Christian And Jew And Vice Versa ) Quran 5;5 ''This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture ( Christian and Jew) is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And [lawful in marriage are] chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture ( Christian and Jew) before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking [secret] lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.'' ( Kindness Toward Atheists / > APOSTATE < ) Quran 60:8 '' As for such [ of the unbelievers ( atheist) ] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, > Allah < does not forbid you to show them > kindness < and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, Allah loves those who act equitably. '' ( All The Terrorists / Killers Will Enter Hell Fire ) Quran 5:32 "......Whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely......" ( Turned Your Enemies Into Your Awesome Friends ) Quran 41:34 "The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one which is better, then lo! he, between whom and thee there was enmity (will become) as though he was a bosom friend." ( The Husband and The Wife Are > Protecting Friends < One Of Another ) Quran 9:71 ''And the believers, men and women, are > Protecting Friends < one of another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey God and His messenger. As for these, God will have mercy on them. Lo! God is Mighty, Wise.'' Quran16:97 “To whoever, male or female, does good deeds and has faith, We shall give a good life and reward them according to the best of their actions. Quran 30:21 “And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquility in them; and He placed between you > affection and mercy { Love } The Prophet Muhammad said, “The best among you is the best to his wife” ( Human Are One Big family ) Quran 49:13 " O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)." ( All The Racist People Will Enter Hellfire ) Quran 30:22 "And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your languages and your colors. Indeed in that are signs for those of knowledge." My conclusion: The > BASIC < message of God to the human is that '' YOU '' believe in God and be kind to other human beings / > animals < and in the > RETURNED < God will > REWARD < you with a new life in Paradise. * The Quran ONLY guides you how to become a good human being " Nothing Else ". * You are a good human being or a bad human being that is YOUR choice. * No one can force you to become a good human being. * You MUST work HARD to become a good human being. * Why should '' YOU '' do good deeds and avoid bad deeds? * Do Good - it's for You. Do Bad - It's against you. * '' YOUR '' life is a TEST from God that you will choose to do either Good or Bad. * Find the excuse to help others and forgive others NOT the other way around. * '' YOUR '' final destination is either Hell or Heaven. * So work HARD toward choice of YOUR destination. Quran 17:7 If you do good, you will do so for your own good. And if you do evil, it will be to your own loss.
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You really should read the book this movie is based on, The Last Temptation by Nikos Kazantzakis. Regarding the end part of this film, when Jesus is helped off the cross by the little girl, this is his ‘last temptation’, his desire to be ordinary, like everyone else, to start a family, become a father, to grow old and then die living a simple life, before realising the horror of that choice (for him, and therefore the world), and then fully committing, embracing and trusting God’s way, and returning to the cross fully conscious….all of that ‘life’ he experienced between coming off the cross to getting back on, that wasn’t a physical reality, a physical experience for him. He never physically leaves the cross. His ego did, but his body never left. And to me, this a beautiful and incredible way to depict a fleeting moment of doubt and fear, and a truly inspiring representation of the idea of Christ.
Wow finally someone who understood the ending
As a Christian, (life-long Catholic), I found this movie inspirational for one very important reason.
Near the end of the movie Jesus very old and dying. Judas, who is really pissed that Jesus didn't stick to the plan, confronts Jesus with Peter and the other apostles. Jesus tells them God said he didn't have to go through with it. "Who told you this?" they ask. "She did." pointing to the little girl/guardian angel.
"That's Satan." they tell him. "If you die like this, (of natural causes), everything is lost." The realization that he has been tricked causes Jesus to plead with God to take him back. He evokes the whole prodigal son narrative.
Suddenly he is back on the cross, exactly as he was just before the little girl showed up. He dies and everything that was supposed to happen happens. Jesus' entire post-crucifixtion life was an hallucination or fever dream..
What I like about the story is that the most tempting thing the devil could offer was the life that we all have. To be a normal man, with a job and a family and not have the salvation of mankind on your back. More tempting than bread to a starving man and more tempting than all the power in the world.
Kind of means we are already beating the devil.
You’ve summed up my thoughts on this perfectly.
I’ve asked other Christian friends to watch it, I’ve explain it’s weird and intentionally not accurate to the gospels, but most are turned off. Or they don’t finish it, and miss the point completely.
Most people complain it’s blasphemous, and I guess it is, but it has to be, to make the point it’s making.
It’s art, not comfort food. Go watch The Passion of the Christ, if you need warm fuzzies.
@@stevenbatke4167 Thank you! I’m glad someone else sees the same theme I did, the Last Temptation of Christ is the life of a normal man.
I think the movie is saying what are you willing to give up to follow GOD and his plans for your life besides not everyone needs to married with family in order to be successful in walking with GOD.Remember he told Jeremiah not to do it and reasons why was strong.
“Havent seen Prince of Egypt”
Crossing my fingers for future reaction
I love how Jeremy is not a Christian but he still excepts what the movie and Holden says with out rebuking it. That’s the kind of people we need people who don’t argue about everything
I agree people should be able to reconcile without trying to start a argument.
I absolutely Agree with you Their
Yall should do "Atheist and Christian React to Dogma"
If you can find a copy. Thanks, Weinstein.
@@coba8082 its free on youtube
@@logantalksmovies3245 yeah but the video quality could be better. It’ll do, don’t get me wrong, but where’s my 4K at?!
This movie took a large inspiration from the Gospel of Judas. I personally like this movie for the portrayal of Jesus as an unconfident mortal who just happened to be chosen as the son of God, having his conflicts of thoughts and beliefs, as a true man of free will, which was a little unsolid and undescribed topic in the bible. I think many people have misunderstood the intention of this film since it's not really about a film of Jesus, but a man who chose to become a being with God inside of him.
I love how Holden is not an atheist but he still accepts what the movie and Jeremy says without rebuking it. That’s the kind of people we need; people who don’t argue about everything.
😉😎🙌
It's a powerful movie. About his temptation from the desert to the cross. At the end Satan tempts shows him what his life could of been, Mary included, If he didn't accept the cross. At end he accepts the cross. I don't think you guys on here got it at all. I read the book too it helped. It was done in novel like form
I am Catholic and this is one of my favourite movies. By humanising Jesus it allows us to better understand the man and not just the God. It allows us to appreciate and love him more if that is even possible.
Then again, I also love Life of Brian and Dogma so…😂😂😂
You guys always have great discussion! Would love to see Jeremy’s reaction to Prince of Egypt and for you both to watch The Chosen!
Yay here we go
I'm glad you listened to us and watch, discuss religious films with Holdmen.
Good talk, men! This is me, thumbs-upping and commenting positively to support your fragile ego (hopefully said by you with tounge-in-cheek).
“This is Dragon Ball Evolution of the Bible.”
Same could be said of The Chosen.
Been waiting for this
Keep this going! Atheist and Christian react to First Reformed? Or Mother!
love the idea of watching Mother!
As a Christian and a film enjoyer…. I really disagree with Holden about this movie. Both narratively and spiritually I thought it was genius.
He said that the Jesus in this movie is a sinner, but I didn’t see that as much. From the Bible you can easily see that Jesus was conflicted about being crucified. I’m not a Christain so maybe I’m able to step back and look at this film without that knowledge even though I grew up as a Christain.
@@noelvaldez96 I agree. Seeing yourself as a bad person and actually BEING a bad person isnt the same thing.
@@zakstarkiller1850 exactly, in the beginning of the movie when he’s talking about being a hypocrite and all that, I thought that was honestly really cool. Because if Jesus did exist he wouldn’t be this arrogant guy that thought of himself as perfect, at least that’s what I like to think.
@@noelvaldez96 I agree 100% In Christian theology there's this idea that Jesus was 100% God and 100% human. If we forget that Jesus was 100% human, then we're missing the point
No
Love your videos
God bless cant wait to watch this
"Havent seen Prince of Egypt”
Cant wait for "Atheist react to Prince of Egypt."
You guys should consider watching First Reformed. An absolute masterpiece by Paul Shrader, who also wrote this film, Taxi Driver and Raging Bull. It stars Ethan Hawke and is honestly a spiritual experience that I think would impact you and Holden both. Holden mentioning his love for Silence makes me sure he’d enjoy it. 🙌🏻
That was a great film. It stuck with me.
Great video, great conversation.
Thank you for the video guys.
Thanks for watching!
I respect your opinions but I just watched this movie this year, and I love this movie! I didn’t see the ending as it literally happening in the narrative, but as a what if, and he never actually went off the cross but it was showing what would’ve happened if he gave in to that temptation. Also, to the movie being badly made I 100% believe it was a style choice on Martin and you guys can not like it, but I think he was trying to make the audience aware that this is just a film and not to be taken literally. The last shot is the film itself breaking up which I think is a testament to that. You may not enjoy it but I thought that was what he was going for.
I hear where you're coming from, and far be it from me to ever say that Scorsese doesn't know how to make a movie! He's one of the greatest. I think he was trying some more handheld stuff and it didn't always work, but I still respect that he takes risks. It seems that Holden and I are in the minority as the movie is critically lauded, but everything can't be for everyone. Looking back, I'm very glad I watched it, if for nothing else than seeing that cast do a Biblical epic.
thanks for the comment!
Nice chat 😁👌 I would love to see atheist and christian watch Dogma...
Great discussion. I Love a good film deconstruction.
I recommend the book. It goes more into why Christ is so wishywashy. It’s him battling with his humanity and divinity . Also the last temptation is just that. A fever nightmare from the cross . He never came down from the cross .
Nikos the author you can tell was probably more a johova witness in his thinking. But the book is better in details and there is more biblical accurate stuff. But again nikos being more JW in his thinking he does do things on purpose to be controversial. But it turns the cross into a victory and shows how horrid humanity was and why we needed a savior.
The plot device of this movie reminded me a lot of Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge, a French short film that was also shown as a Twilight Zone episode. Taking place during the American Civil War, a Southern collaborator is about to be hung by Union troops. The rope breaks he escapes, and runs through the countryside till he gets back to his plantation-only to be suddenly back on the bridge, being hung; he had imagined the whole thing in the last few moments of his life.
Also, I’ve read that Scorsese had a tremendous amount of trouble getting this movie made; he had no money, not enough crew, not enough time; pretty much everything was compromised. It’s actually amazing it got made at all.
Oh wow, I can def see the comparison. I’ve read Owl Creek Bridge fairly recently but it didn’t occur to me until this comment. Great call.
You both should watch The Chosen together. It's a way better look at what Biblical Jesus would look like on screen. Could have some interesting discussions with you both after each episode.
Please do Monty Python's Life of Brian 😁
Wow, I couldn't disagree with Holden more. I greatly respect that he was open-minded enough to watch it without becoming outraged but I think you guys missed the point and might benefit from listening to the commentary. To be clear, I am an atheist who was raised Catholic.
One of the greatest schisms in early Christianity was in classifying Jesus as divine or mortal. The Council of Nicaea under Emperor Constantine in 325 AD codified the various strains of Christian belief that had proliferated in the centuries after Jesus' death into a single, uniform dogmatic belief system. The Gnostic sect, among others, who believed that Jesus was more a creature of the flesh than a divine being was pronounced heretical and violently purged for centuries.
Furthermore, it is often said by historians and theologians that Christianity would have existed without Jesus but not without Paul aka Saul of Tarsus. Most of the unsavory aspects of modern Christianity are attributed to Paul. He was an orthodox Jew from a family of Pharisees or traditionalist Jewish elders. He persecuted any Jews who had assimilated into the Hellenized culture of the Levant post-Diaspora after Rome razed Jerusalem in 69 AD. He and his fundamentalist ilk felt they were guardians of the culture in the face of the lure of the corrupting external culture much like Hasidic Jews today. Pagan Rome was open about sexuality and nudity knowing no body shame or suppression of homosexuality. Much like fundamentalist Islam, fundamentalist Judaism is strict about interaction between genders, demonizes homosexuality and espouses body shame. The one thing both Rome and the Pharisees had in common was their patriarchy which completely subjugates women. All of this repressed prudishness crept into Christianity because of Paul who was as fervent a Christian convert as he was an orthodox Jew. As they say, there is no fanatic like a convert.
As you both noted, Jesus was a bohemian hippie trafficking with the infirm, the poor, whores, lepers, beggars and laborers. Most of the Apostles were illiterate fishermen. He would not have approved of Paul's bastardization of his message or of the Edict of Nicaea. The movie portrays him as a mercurial man subject to passions, ego and delusions but with a strict sense of justice and integrity. He's compassionate and indignant and impractical.
His foil is Judas who, historically speaking, was a zealot or Jewish guerilla fighter. He's a pragmatist who sees potential in Jesus but is frustrated by his lack of focus. Eventually, he becomes his truest disciple and the voice of resentment when Jesus strays from his fate. A fascinating interpretation of one of history's greatest tragic figures.
In the Bhagavad-Gita section of the Indian epic The Mahabharata, as the Pandava and Kaurya forces are poised on the brink of the battle that will decide the fate of the world, Arjuna, the greatest and bravest warrior of his time, freezes with horror at the thought of slaughtering so many kinsmen. Krishna, his charioteer, stops time to reveal the great tapestry of human destiny and the meaning of all things to the awestruck demi-god. In the space of a single second called The Eternal Moment, Arjuna receives an eternity of wisdom reserved only for the gods and understands why this cataclysmic blood feud is a necessary evil.
Similarly, Dafoe lives a lifetime as a humble man, confronts his greatest booster, the false prophet Paul, and is chastened by his betrayer, Judas, for not seeing things through and condemning humanity. The seraphic child is revealed as the serpent who managed, at the last, to snatch victory from defeat. Jesus had a moment of weakness in the Garden of Gethsemane when he begged God to deliver him from his painful fate. It is the most powerful moment in the Gospels because Jesus' humanity is revealed and we can identify with the man. Scorsese boldly has the Devil snatch Jesus' soul for an equivalent of The Eternal Moment and Jesus lives a lifetime in that feverish split-second. When he realizes the trick, he begs his Father for absolution and God grants it. He snaps back to awareness on the cross and, with his dying breath, Dafoe rejoices that "It is accomplished." It is a supremely moving moment and I wept when I first saw it.
I can't explain the technical failings of the movie but this is as fine a piece of art as Scorsese has ever produced and a testament to selflessness, sacrifice and humanity.
I also don't understand why Holden keeps calling Scorsese Irish-Catholic. As far as I know, Scorsese is as Italian as they come. His name isn't in the least bit Irish. Maybe he's trying to say Roman-Catholic?
Some other religious-themed movies to see if you want to make this a series:
The Rapture
Frailty
The DaVinci Code
The Seventh Sign
Noah
Mother
Agora
The Exorcist
The Mission
Pilgrimage
The Name of the Rose
The Passion of Joan of Arc
The Messenger
The Life of Brian
I’m def interested in watching Mother. That one may be happening.
@@JeremyGBranch I would say they should ALL happen! That's a great list of films I'd love to see your reaction to especially if neither of you have seen them before! Now that Matty is off pumping iron, you gotta be the next friend that watches, Branch! And I write all that crap and get a single sentence reply! What? Lol. I expected someone to take up fire and sword against me! Effort like that deserves a reward, Jeremy! Forward the comment to Holden at least! Or react to JOHN CARTER for the love of all that's Holy! I've been waiting a whole year! The 'Rona's gone and I'm still here like a crusty barnacle on your channel!
You guys are crazy, this movie is awesome
I’ve been called worse 😂
Thanks for checking it.
@@JeremyGBranch lol I mean no serious insult by my comment. You’re welcome, keep up the good work. You guys make good videos.
@@TheMindIlluminated of course!
No offense taken- I knew where you were coming from.
Why do you keep calling Scorsese an Irish Catholic?
All 4 grandparents are Italian Immigrants from Sicily.
Here’s a reference: theconversation.com/scorseses-gods-of-the-streets-from-killers-of-the-flower-moon-to-silence-faith-is-rarely-far-off-in-his-films-223630#:~:text=Born%20in%20New%20York%20City's,Yet%20the%20church%20proved%20influential.
Could you maybe react to "The Chosen"?
It is a new Show you can watch for free online. It tells the story from the view of the people back in Jesus time which met him and were healed or saved by him.
Sorry for my bad English.
Thank you for your Reactions! Many greetings from Europe 🙏
Paul was all about Paul. He said he'd do/say anything to get converts. He went against Jesus' teachings n original followers. 🙄
Ok even though neither one liked the movie that much, you both should listen to the soundtrack by Peter Gabriel. It kind of ushered in world music in the late 80s/ early 90s.
Oh yeah? Like when “Chant”, “Enya”, “Enigma” and “Deep Forest” came out? Everything you said sold me. Peter Gabriel is fantastic.
I should contact Peter Gabriel to help score my Biblical film on Elijah.
Regarding Paul's portrayal, how often must've he not have heard someone in a crowd saying he's the actual Jesus? The guy was smart and so tried to calm down the clout chasers. OR... the writer of the book and Scorsese conspired to make Paul look like a... Nestorian! Gasps, monocles dropped and shattered, one lady screams before fainting "won't somebody think of the hypostatic union"?
With all the boom shots, and seeing the film crew, maybe Martin Scorsese isn't cinema either.
I saw this in theaters cuz I love Scorsese. To this day, I try to forget about it. It’s so cringe for me. But I did buy the soundtrack back in the day. I think it was by Peter Gabriel.
The Orthodox church is the true church ☦️
I think people need to realize...
It’s only a movie.
I think the movie was a Biblical way to attract non church going people to actually read The BIBLE itself.
Are we sure this wasn’t made by Tommy Wiseau...?
Jesus Christ Superstar?
Sounds like fun 🤩
Still better than the gore fest and anti-semtic that is the Passion of the Christ.
You ain’t lying. Haha. That movie fucking sucks.
Islam The Beautiful Religion
( Be Just )
Quran 5:8
'' O you who believe! stand out firmly for God, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the > HATRED OF OTHERS TO YOU < make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear God. For God is well-acquainted with all that you do. ''
Quran 4:58
'' Indeed, God commands you to render trusts to whom they are due and when you judge between people to judge with justice. Excellent is that which God instructs you. Indeed, God is ever Hearing and Seeing.''
( God's The Rules Of War )
Quran 2:190
'' Fight in the way of God > THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU < but do not transgress. Indeed. God does not like transgressors. ''
Quran 2 :193
'' And fight them on until there is no more oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. ''
Quran 4:90
''.........So if they withdraw from you and cease their hostility and offer you peace, in that case Allah has not granted you permission to fight against them.''
Quran 8:61
''And if they seek peace, then you also seek it, and put your trust in God. He is the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.''
( Stand Up For Justice )
Quran 4 :135
'' Ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against > YOURSELVES < or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.''
( Who Are The Good Human Beings? )
Quran 2.177
'' Righteousness is "NOT" that you turn your faces ( in worship ) toward the east or the west but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in God, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth,> IN SPITE OF LOVE FOR IT,< to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for > freeing slaves < [and who] establishes prayer and gives charity; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous. ''
( Freedom To Believe And To Reject )
Quran 2:256
'' Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error ''
Quran 10:99
'' And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed > all of them entirely < Then would you compel the people in order that they become believers? ''
( Tolerance For Other Religions )
Quran 109: 1- 6
Say,"O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshipers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshiper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshipers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."
( Protection for Idol Worshiper )
Quran 9:6
"And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are people who do not know. "
Quran16:125
“Call people to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good teaching, and argue with them in the most courteous way”
Quran7:199 “Be tolerant....”
( Friendship With Non Muslims )
Quran 60:8
'' God does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, God loves those who act justly. ''
( Do Christians And Jews and "OTHER" non-Muslims go to Heaven? )
Quran 2:62
'' Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,-> ANY { On Judgement Day }
( According to the Quran Christians and Jews worship TRUE God )
(Quran 3:113-114)
'' Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book ( Christians and Jews ) are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.''
Note: According to the Quran that Jesus is not God nevertheless Christians still worship one '' TRUE '' God.
( > Allah < Is The Protector Of Monasteries, Churches, Synagogues And The Mosques )
Quran 22:40
[They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.
( Why Are There So Many Different Religions In The World ? )
Quran 5 48
''...... If God wanted He could have made all of you a > single nation < But He willed otherwise in order to test you in what He has given you;(scriptures) therefore try to excel one another in good deeds. Ultimately you all shall return to God; then He will show you the truth of those matters in which you > DISPUTE submission < to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (Salvation)''
My explanation of above verse
Islam mean > submission < to God
( The above verse saying is that God will not accept a religion from the > MUSLIM < and the Non-Muslims but total > submission < to God.)
Question: How Can Muslim And the > Non-Muslim < > submit < to the God ?
Answer: Be kind to other human beings and Do not lie, Do not steal, Do not cheat, Do not hurt others, Do not be prideful and Do the charity work.
( God Allow Muslims To Marry And Eat Food From the Christian And Jew And Vice Versa )
Quran 5;5
''This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture ( Christian and Jew) is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And [lawful in marriage are] chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture ( Christian and Jew) before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking [secret] lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.''
( Kindness Toward Atheists / > APOSTATE < )
Quran 60:8
'' As for such [ of the unbelievers ( atheist) ] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, > Allah < does not forbid you to show them > kindness < and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, Allah loves those who act equitably. ''
( All The Terrorists / Killers Will Enter Hell Fire )
Quran 5:32
"......Whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely......"
( Turned Your Enemies Into Your Awesome Friends )
Quran 41:34
"The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one which is better, then lo! he, between whom and thee there was enmity (will become) as though he was a bosom friend."
( The Husband and The Wife Are > Protecting Friends < One Of Another )
Quran 9:71
''And the believers, men and women, are > Protecting Friends < one of another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey God and His messenger. As for these, God will have mercy on them. Lo! God is Mighty, Wise.''
Quran16:97
“To whoever, male or female, does good deeds and has faith, We shall give a good life and reward them according to the best of their actions.
Quran 30:21
“And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquility in them; and He placed between you > affection and mercy { Love }
The Prophet Muhammad said, “The best among you is the best to his wife”
( Human Are One Big family )
Quran 49:13
" O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."
( All The Racist People Will Enter Hellfire )
Quran 30:22
"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your languages and your colors. Indeed in that are signs for those of knowledge."
My conclusion:
The > BASIC < message of God to the human is that '' YOU '' believe in God and be kind to other human beings / > animals < and in the > RETURNED < God will > REWARD < you with a new life in Paradise.
* The Quran ONLY guides you how to become a good human being " Nothing Else ".
* You are a good human being or a bad human being that is YOUR choice.
* No one can force you to become a good human being.
* You MUST work HARD to become a good human being.
* Why should '' YOU '' do good deeds and avoid bad deeds?
* Do Good - it's for You. Do Bad - It's against you.
* '' YOUR '' life is a TEST from God that you will choose to do either Good or Bad.
* Find the excuse to help others and forgive others NOT the other way around.
* '' YOUR '' final destination is either Hell or Heaven.
* So work HARD toward choice of YOUR destination.
Quran 17:7
If you do good, you will do so for your own good. And if you do evil, it will be to your own loss.