Doomed from the Womb? | Leighton Flowers | Soteriology 101
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Jordan Hatfield, of Great Light Studios, and Warren McGrew, of Idol Killer, join Leighton Flowers to talk about Infant Damnation as it relates to the claims of SOME Calvinists, and the logical implications of others.
Recently Dr. James White, of AOMIN, harshly rebuked Warren for something he said regarding "the spirit of infant damnation" as it relates to pagan child sacrifice. Today, we will address that and respond to Dr. White's rebuke.
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#Leighton Flowers #Predestination #Calvinism #Provisionism #Calvinist #Salvation
The answer is to why James White affirmed in the 80s a less horrific view of the damnation of infants is because he was raising children at that point and had to actually stare into the faces of his babies and think about it.
I see Calvinism as a cult of Christianity. They change the person and character of God and the nature of salvation. False gospel.
It's Gnosticism disguise as Christianity
Exactly! Calvinism is to Christianity what Jeroboam's religion, centered around golden calf idols at Bethel and Dan, was to Judaism. In Jeroboam's case, as in the case of the Israelites who persuaded Aaron to make the original golden calf at the foot of Mt Sinai centuries before, he made "gods" in the image of golden calves, called them "YHWH", and attributed God's deeds and attributes to them. In Calvinists' case, they take the image of the devil along with a few ideas the pagan Greeks had about their "gods", call him "God" and attribute God's deeds and attributes to him. It's the same sort of idolatry and the same level of wickedness.
@DamonNomad82 That's why, for me, I disagree with Leighton in others who call certain ones who continue in and push those demonic doctrines, brothers, or sisters in Christ. They have rejected the Triune God of the Bible, Blaspheme the Triune God in different ways, for the worship of Demonic teachings and a god not describe in Scripture. How are Calvinist any different than any other false religion/cult?...I heard and watch what Leighton said here and others have said on different channels, that it doesn't help to make that reference toward them, and that may be their view. Thats why I said, "For me".....Yet, even during the 1st and 2nd century, many individuals who were not christians would call themselves Christians. How did the 1st and 2nd century Christians handle that? They didn't call them brothers and sisters in Christ for sure!!... I get it though and understand what Leighton said, Some Individuals who are curious and who are truly seeking truth will leave Calvinism without refereeing to them as non-Christians, but for individuals like James White, they're lying to him by continuing to refer him as a brother in Christ. Why would an individual like himself ever seek an assumption that he could be wrong when he is still referred to as a Christian from the opposing views and individuals he constantly bashes. He may not care regardless because of the Academia bodyguarding, which is really meaningless in this day in age in my view and I'm of that world. But hey, I do pray that every Calvinist, Arminianist come out of those Gnostic influence and teaching camps and get to ready the scriptures for themselves and especially in chronological order to see the context. Reading the scriptures in chronological order makes a huge difference and will expose some faulty teaching and beliefs.
Spot on!
@@KentSmith94I can't call them my brothers either. They serve a completely different god
wow!! this discussion is amazing. another point that the calvinist needs to look at. how is the infant and the reprobate any different?? They are are BOTH "unable" to understand the Gospel according to Calvinism.
This is addressed in the Westminster Confession: "Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth: so also, are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word."
Those who wrote that Confession didn't want to venture outside of what the scripture addresses.
I hope you hear my heart and sincerity as I write this response, brother/sister. Now the WC alludes that it’s the same as elected adult situation.. might I humbly ask what comes of the unelected babies? Which follows is election cannot be dependent on anything, including age or infancy. Then, “What if my baby is unelected?” When you’re in this situation this question because real and overwhelmingly important .
Not sure if you yourself or maybe a close sweet friend or sister have gone through the agony of a young child’s death or even a miscarriage… and sat through that grief of a child. These questions are real and shake real people’s worlds.
Mark 10/Matthew 19 The Bible says the kingdom of God belongs to such as these when he was referring to a group of children that the disciples even were trying to shoo away! Such as these. 💗
2 Samuel 12 under the inspiration of God Scripture is written that David was confident and proclaimed that his child he would see in eternity. No doubt. 💗 No questioning about their elected status or not. Curious why not? And that truth I can hold onto when I sit with my grieving friends.
I do hope you don’t take offense. But hear my heart. It was similar questions like these that tormented my own heart and walk with Christ many years ago… and so I can sympathize with the true pain these intrusions obsessive worry and questions and agonizing thoughts have on another grieving mother (or father). But praise God for Scripture that reminds me of the character of our good and loving God revealed in Scripture.
Blessings~ ✨
Based on Ezekiel 18, I think God is just as offended by this kind of doctrine (that He would unjustly punish someone who has not personally sinned).
Had to start over and listen today 😀
If Calvinism is correct, then we may say that God - who decreed everything to come to pass, is at the moment sitting back, watching Provisionists and Calvinists and all the other -isms argue endlessly, without ever getting to a common ground. Because He decreed one to be Calvinist, the other to be a Provisionist and both became puppets until they die, going in circles. I don't think this god is who I came to know BY GRACE.
When one shows they have no concept of logic.
But God did say to contend with the faith and that there would be false doctrines and teachers so he did ordain it to be.
Then change if you’re a puppet?
You hav “free” will
So, do calvinists apologize to and ask forgiveness from people they sin against? Since, in their view, God determined their sin so why would they? And if they say because God said to, isn't that proof in the word of God that He does not will their sin?? This is why Calvinism/determinism is very incoherent. ☝️
Wait, so let me get this straight. Augustine believed that salvation was completely arbitrary, and even infants were either damned or saved beyond meaningful control, but also that if you dunked them in water, they’d be saved, and if you didn’t, they’d be damned?
Why do respect Augustine again?
Augustin was a heretic
This is a very dangerous comment. Augustine had a lot of errors in his theology, but his doctrines of grace reflected the biblical view of salvation, against the heretic pelagius, that you are now semi following. Please stop and read your bible i urge you.
@@jozzen77 I could say the same to you, Friend.
You clearly don’t know how wicked Augustine was, who had people beheaded for disagreeing with him on doctrines such as infant salvation and inherited guilt.
And what people call Palagianism today was literally only what Augustine accused Pelagius of, and Pelagius was deemed orthodox multiple times by the counsel of the time, even though Augustine continued to accuse him of wrong doctrine.
Seek out Dr Allie Bonner who has studied Pelagius in depth and can prove that Pelagius wasn’t even Pelagian.
@@Steve-og4ii yes he was. And wicked beyond the imagination.
If James White was going around beheading teachers who didn’t believe divine determinism, we’d have him tied for murder and deemed an unbeliever. But it was ok for Augustine, apparently.
@@jozzen77 yes, my friend, o have read and studied my Bible for almost 50 years but the grace of God in salvation represented there,is NOT the same as the " irresistible grace" proffered by Calvinism. God's grace,by its very nature, cannot be forced( I.e. " irresistible). The "I "of Calvinism is just the forced result of the other 4 points of Calvinism, which of course the natural result of the " T" teaching total INABILITY, to even receive the Gospel offered freely by God . Many theologian agree that Augustin is the Father of modern Catholicism, and to this the Catholic church agrees. Read what Dave Hunt says about this in his book " What Love is This?".
You got to have Dr Jonathan Williams on more!!
44:40 --- Brenton believes infants deserve an eternity in hell because of "justice".
Prov.28:5
"Evil men do not understand justice, but those who SEEK the Lord, understand it completely."
Ps. 127:3
"Behold, children are a gift of the LORD, The fruit of the womb is a reward."
Matt. 18:10
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven, their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven."
Except, these little ones is metaphorically representing the Church. It's referencing believers! Not, a chronological age of people.
@@scottsimpson9506
Except that's your terrible spin on a very clear text.
You're seriously reaching buddy 😂😂😂
That's your opinion. I see no Scriptural text supporting your opinion. But, it's clear one does not have to become like a child to enter Heaven so, it must mean something else.@@CosmicalChrist
Just like a Calvinist to even disagree with Jesus.
Just like a sower of division to not even reference Scripture.@@histruthunfolding9539
Jesus said it was better to tie a milestone around your neck and thrown in the sea then to stop any of these children from coming to me.
Does that sound as if He is just discarding innocent babies?
No, why would He say we must be as one of these children or you can not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Matthew 18:2-4
Finally some sense!😊
Dr. White often engages in ad hominem and gaslighting. These are not examples of loving your neighbor as yourself. If fact, it's quite the opposite.
5 point Calvinist are in my opinion prideful folks who think they have it ALL figured out. Even things that the finite limited human mind cannot fully understand on this side of eternity. They take certain mysteries and parse and slice and dice it down to where they think they have it all figured out but instead they have gone into grave error.
How many exceptions to a doctrine must there be to realize there is something wrong with the doctrine?
Only a Calvinist can twist the doctrine of a cow into a doctrine of a pretzel.
The way White calls Leighton derogatory names is VERY UNCHRISTIAN! Where is the uplifting and edifying that Scripture tells us to say?? He is in sin and needs to repent and be kinder!
I literally had a friend this weekend say that babies who die in elect families probably go to heaven and babies who die in for example, a Hindu family would go to hell. She look pretty shocked when I said I wouldn't worship that God.
I once had a consistent Calvinist say to me that her and her husband prayed every pregnancy they had, that if the baby in her womb was not elect, she would lose that pregnancy. They lost 2 pregnancies and have 5 living children.
I thought this was such an odd prayer because they were only alleviating their own discomfort in that they would not have to suffer the emotional angst of raising a child chosen for damnation.
Those babies would still face eternal damnation, if fact, those parents were denying the only heaven the eternally damned would ever have: temporary life on earth.
My mother prayed that prayer over each of us four children.
James White is continuing to have terrible manners, rooted in an insecure Epistemology. He is as Steve Hassan would say, a "malignant narcissist".
Calvanists are man centered they follow John Calvin.
You have no understanding of what is “Calvinism” or it’s origins.
True!
Beware lest any man spoil you *through philosophy and vain deceit* after the TRADITION of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
{Colossians 2:8}
@scottsimpson9506 Calvinism is the worship of the false god first envisioned by the false gnostic convert Augustine hundreds of years after Christ. They have a history of murdering their theological opponents, indicting God as the author of evil, and covering their heretical lies with Scripture ripped from context.
But who are you, oh man, to speak against Augustine?
Why would White be grateful for his daughter's faith, when, according to White, God caused her faith, not any influence of White's parental guidance?
Calvinists play both sides of their own arguments.
We are expected to ignore the gaping holes, the contradictions, in their arguments.
God ordains the means...
So I guess gratitude isn’t supposed to go to God but rather your parental efforts?
@Thisisvaughn White is more than pleased with his daughter. So pleased he shares her conviction of faith with his huge audience. That is not gratitude to God. It's his pride as a parent.
It used to be called showing off.
Just another inconsistency of Calvinism.
We do not know whether one has been picked or not, therefore, we have to do our part in this life to the best we can!!! God is the Boss, full stop 🙏🤷🏻♂️
You know, if Calvinists really thought this through, and fully embraced what it is that they believed, they would realize that they should sterilize themselves and never have children because the possibility of bringing a child to life only to be damned was insane and evil.
They could then say see God preordained me to never have children.
Calvinism is a very clever system for basically doing anything that you want and then handing off all the responsibility to God.
Even non Calvinists don't know if their future children will be saved.
@@nerychristian Can you imagine a greater hell? Loving your children dearly, pouring your heart and soul into them and having no idea if they're saved or not and having to sit in the knowledge that there isn't a bloody thing you can do about it? Doesn't matter what you think, pray, beg or plead of God, nothing will change. Ever. About anything.
@@Silverhailo21 I don't think that's true. Whether or not you accept predestination, the bible does say that if we bring up our children in the instruction of the Lord, they will not depart from it. And God does answer prayers. So if we pray for our children, we have the hope that God will touch their hearts and save them. And maybe you are talking to the wrong Calvinists, but I know that I don't use predestination as an excuse for non-action. In fact, I know that every single action that I take, every choice that I make will affect the outcome of my life. That is why I pray every morning and seek God's will. And I know it's important to be disciplined and use my time wisely. I know plenty of non Calvinists who lead undisciplined lives, waste time on worthless pursuits, and don't think clearly every choice they make.
Look. There are people who grew up with non-Calvinist theology, and there are people who grew up with Calvinist influenced theology. People who just grew up in a church, or who attend a church because it is nearby, without really thinking about or questioning why they follow a certain theology, are less likely to be mature in the faith. I grew up in pentacostal churches, and attended pentacostal churches all my life. But once I reached a certain age, I began to really study the scriptures, and saw that some of the things that were being taught in my church were unbiblical. It was not easy going through that phase of my life. It really made me question my own theological understanding. And it definitely isn't easy standing alone and going against the current. But if you really love God, you will follow his direction wherever it leads you. And you will base your faith on the word of God alone, and not on what others are saying or doing. I don't know everything that Calvin taught. Nor do I attend a reformed church. Nor do I even call myself a Calvinist, though I do accept his view on predestination. I just see it as the more biblical view. A view that God has planned everything out ahead of time. Every moment in history has already been planned out by God. Life is basically His story. We are living out His story for our lives. And when we seek God and live our lives, we discover what our role is in that story.
@@nerychristian I don't mean to be dismissive but it sounds like you've created for yourself a system that allows for you to do anything that you want and then chalk it up to predestination.
Perhaps it doesn't lead you to non-action. Very well. So you act. But your actions are pointless. Nothing turns on them. It's a rigged game. It doesn't matter whether you play or not and that's entirely the point, your choices are not choices at all and your actions hopes and desires don't matter.
This is nihilism.
You can say that the modern West is secular and has largely abandoned God because he predestined it, OR, and I think this more likely, the nihilistic and atheistic and secular response is completely logical and predictable after exposure to reformationist ideologies. It doesn't lead to joy it leads to despair.
They got rid of infant limbo, the catholic church ⛪️ that is.
Elizabeth Thompson6644: Yes the RCC abandoned the teaching of limbo. Why? Because their teaching created a problem for them.
The strong reaction by Catholics against it.
Souls of children being held for eternity in limbo, was no better than hell because those souls are separated from God for eternity. The only difference is the type of suffering each experience.
It's almost funny how the "authoritative" RCC has constantly switched around their doctrine over the years.
Almost like they're a bunch of fallen men deigning to speak for a God they themselves do not know.
Hey I’m catholic and that was never an official teaching of the church. It is true that many believed it in the Middle Ages but never was it an official teaching of the church. I’m also a former Calvinist btw!
@timboslice980 It was a teaching in my religion class in my Cathholic H.S. 1960s.
@@sheilasmith7779 there are teachings and there are official teachings. It was never an official teaching of the church. Perhaps a priest, a parent, a sponsor, a theologian, an apologist, a personal interpretation of scripture, or a church father gave you the idea and none of those things qualify as an official church teaching. If so, point to the section in the catechism, ecumenical council, or magisterial document that binds the church to this belief at any time in history.
Sorry if you were poorly catechized. I was too, my problem was I was catechized poorly by Protestants. You were catechized poorly by Catholics which makes your situation much worse. The good news is it literally took me 6 months of study to find out what Catholics actually believe and the differences between an allowed point of speculation, a doctrine, and a dogma. You having more formation, wouldn’t need nearly as much time to learn those things as I did. Like recently, I had a conversation with a Protestant about Mary having no labor pains.
Eve’s birth pains were greatly multiplied and if Mary was protected from sin, she would’ve had greatly reduced labor pains. Many in the church believe to this day she had no pain at all and others that it was reduced. It’s never been made dogma so there is room for conversation and debate on the issue. However judging from what you said earlier, it wouldn’t surprise me that in the 60s they would’ve told you the church teaches that she was pain free during labor. Do you see what I mean?
In one breath JW say a couple of passages by no means can be used to found infant salvation, and in the next days that he keeps going back to Romans 9.
This is not a peripheral doctrine. It impacts both the doctrines of salvation and the nature of God. Why then do you say they are your brothers in Christ? Some are rejected as even being Christians for lesser deviations.
Comment for the spreading of this message....
I learned that James White likes the word "scintilla"
I think that John piper is a charismatic inconsistent calvinist.
He refers to himself as a 7 pointer.
if that other guy works at Dillards then I'm out
Calvin himself said all infants who die are reprobate. “Although we must recollect that God would never have suffered any infants to be destroyed except those which the Lord had already reprobated and condemned to eternal death. - John Calvin, Commentary on Deuteronomy, 13:15.
Careful term usage: Maybe we should refer to babies and etc and the un-condemned rather than saved.
Please allow your guests to finish their comments.
Thank you for what you are doing but I am an hour and 45 minutes into this I do not have the stamina to watch all three hours
Me neither
You don't have to watch it live. It's worth listening to all of it. I watched the replay and watched in sections.
Watch on double speed
It’s not that Calvinists are unintelligent, missing the point of contention so consistently, it’s that they simply shut their minds off to thought that threatens their beliefs ( & authority). Basically consideration is not allowed; obfuscation, distraction, dismissal, and or attack (ridicule, accusation and association of opponents with those their audience is likely to consider bad actors) are their only options. A stream of endless rhetoric utilizing these is all that’s produced, it’s tiresome.
Nice gaslighting. It’s you, Arminians doing these things. I have never yet had one of you answer the most basic question: if man’s heart is desperately wicked and deceitful then, how and why will he, or even can he, choose to believe in Whom he hates?
@@scottsimpson9506
My apologies, but you reacted as described, this is not a dichotomy, it isn’t Calvinism or Arminianism…
To your question let’s take a step back; if the Bible is from God and true let’s make sure that our conclusions of meaning from a portion written around 600BC are consistent with a portion written about events taking place at somewhere around 4000 BC.
Read Genesis chapters 3 & 4. Read through the list of consequences in 3 and consider what is said by God in verse 22 of chapter 3. Also consider the counsel God gave to Cain in chapter 4.
There are events recorded in the Bible of God and man of several millennia prior to the book of Jeremiah 17:9 a huge back drop exists that we should be aware of and take into account along with Jeremiah. Is Jeremiah making a statement about all men everywhere at all times, from conception to grave for each person? If this is a correct interpretation, How does this fit with the foundation of the Bible back in Genesis, not to mention all that occurred in between that time and the time of Jeremiah?
@@scottsimpson9506 Your question starts with an "if." Posed that way and with the condition of "if," then there is no issue answering in a way which satisfies your position. "If" a man's heart was desperately wicked and deceitful as you have described, then there must certainly be a divine intervention on the part of God.
Your question was answered in a straightforward manner. I examined your question, acknowledged the point you provided in the question and gave an answer which satisfied the circumstances which bring forward the question. No obfuscation, distraction, dismissal or attack.
Now, are you able to do the same? I ask that you provide my question the same courtesy I have given yours.
Is God's sovereignty powerful enough to create independent and freewill creatures, able to recognize their need for a savior even if they cannot save themselves?
Ezekiel 16:20-22
“…my children…”
Mark 10:14
“…suffer the little children to come onto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.”
Human life begins at conception, and every life will have an opportunity at the grace of God.
Hence the millennial kingdom.
Isaiah 65:20
“There shall no more be thence an infant of days,nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.”
God so loved the whole world…
1 John 2:2
“…he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”
John 1:9
Every person will have opportunity to respond to the light of the Word. It will all be settled in the millenial kingdom on earth.
Keep reading the word of God.
t U LI p
In Christ and for his kingdom,
Shane Shaddix
To LF, WM, JH, JRW and the gang... I stuck with the video for its entire, marathon length, and finally concluded along with y'alls that "King "JRW actually has very little to say where S101 is concerned. I know he has lots to offer the kingdom, but chooses to hold back the scholarship on youtube. hmm. What scholarship? I'm still waiting for real crumbs off from his table. I find it easy to like the man, but difficult not to ad-hominem him, either. Please share some crumbs, James , and not further excursions of bloviation. Thanks.
But you still hold the belief that God will send people to hell. Whether or not they can believe in him. Isn't this an inconsistency?
“The Lord was also angry with me on your account, and He said, “Not even you shall enter the land. Joshua son of Nun, who stands before you, will enter it. Encourage him, for he will enable Israel to inherit the land. And the little ones you said would become captives-your children who on that day did not know good from evil-will enter the land that I will give them, and they will possess it.”
Deuteronomy 1:37-39 BSB
“So the anger of the Lord was kindled that day, and He swore an oath, saying, ‘Because they did not follow Me wholeheartedly, not one of the men twenty years of age or older who came out of Egypt will see the land that I swore to give Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob- not one except Caleb son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite and Joshua son of Nun-because they did follow the Lord wholeheartedly.’”
Numbers 32:10-12 BSB
“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.”
Hebrews 13:8 BSB
You seem to be saying that you don't demand grace but expect God to give grace to everyone and if He doesn't you get to judge Him as being a monster. So if God doesn't do what you expect He is wrong and you are the judge. So in your system who is actually God? Who is the judge? But thanks for saying you don't demand grace. But you do seem to say that if God doesn't act according you expectations He will answer you. If this is not what you are saying please explain it in a way that you are not the judge of God's actions.
I couldn’t watch to the end. But most of this was very disappointing. I interacted with Warren on X. He didn’t try to qualify his statement since any way or claim that they were taken out of context. He bowed up and without qualifying his statement in any way, he couldn’t admit at all why comparing Calvinists to people who murder their children for self gain was a bad comparison or wasn’t what he intended. To come on here and then pretend like we just didn’t really get what he said because we didn’t hear the full context is blame shifting. You guys made a bad comparison… red meat for your audience… and instead of admitting it (Jordan came the closest) you dug in your heels.
Look, I get it, maybe Warren grew up going to a church where they spoke about hell as a place where everyone is roasted over a BBQ pit… a caricature of hell where there is no JUSTICE but just a one size fits all torture chamber where babies are tortured forever alongside the mentally infirm and serial killers. Maybe it is that small group of Calvinists who hold that kind of caricature of hell that he is referring to and he just had to comment on them and wasn’t clear. Fine.
But for the rest of us, we believe REAL JUSTICE takes place in hell. That each one is punished there, if at all, in accordance with their works. Obviously, obviously… an infant who has committed no actual sin wouldn’t receive the same punishment… if it receives one at all… as a murderer, or a rapist. They would receive justice for them, whatever that looks like.
But there are only two categories here:
Grace: No one deserves it and God is free to give it to whomever He chooses. He can choose to give grace/eternal life to some infants, all infants, or none.
Justice: If God doesn’t give grace, He gives REAL JUSTICE to each, whatever that means for each. Hell is a place of justice. God ACTUALLY judges and adjudicates each case perfectly and gives to each according to what they DESERVE in Hell, no more and no less. No one is treated unfairly… ever. What do infants deserve? What punishments will they face? Probably none! Does that mean they get heaven/eternal life? No. They don’t deserve heaven either. But they will only get what they deserve… never anything worse.
But those are the two categories here. I commend everyone (me, you, my kids, your kids, the whole world) to either God’s grace or justice. But you guys come in here with a view of hell in your mind that is inherently unjust… where babies are tortured forever regardless of whether they deserve that or not… and then use that to reject our willingness to accept God’s sovereignty to be just or gracious to whomever He chooses. Do better. Believe that God is actually just as we do.
Advance the conversation. Be humble. Advance the understanding.
What is the difference, to you, between hell, heaven, oblivion, purgatory, limbo, and the void or nothingness? Do you even believe that there is such a thing as eternal damnation for any human? Is it possible for any finite human being to commit a sin worthy of infinite punishment, even Judas, according to divine justice, "all things considered"? (Since, compared to God's omniscience, all our worst sins by comparison are like children knocking lamps over?) Are human beings, just by the virtue of their creation or existential constitution, "made" for hell or destined for eternal punishment?
@@readyplayer1900 - God can never “take” from us more than He has given to us. Punishment always depends on the removal of some prior received grace. Everything we have comes from God. Accordingly, to suffer (ie short for suffering a loss of some good) depends on us receiving some prior good from God that we lose.
With that in mind:
“Heaven” or “eternal life” is the receipt of grace forever, in even greater degree than we have now.
“Purgatory”, to the extent that concept is real, is the purging of a person who will make it to heaven if any remaining flaws or impurities that they have. I’d contend that this is just what happens in this life after we are born again and ends in death when we are “delivered from this body of death” as Paul puts it. To that extent, it is a type of grace and describes the process by which we are made perfect. I don’t think this continues after death.
I don’t have a concept of “limbo”.
“Hell” is the place of judgment. It is where justice is distributed according to works… it might result in punishment with the world of each individual and the final result may be “Oblivion, void, and/or nothingness”. But God will give justice to all unless he gives grace. No one will receive any injustice.
Have fun worshipping your demon god.
@@brentonstanfield5198I think I would agree with much of what you believe about hell. The problem is that’s not the point of contention here at all. I think you should know that by now.
@@JohnK557 - Of course it is the point of contention. There are three categories:
(1) Grace
(2) Justice
(3) Injustice
No one believes that infants deserve injustice. We just admit that infants deserve justice… all men deserve justice. No one deserves grace. There is no salvation by “being an infant”. We recognize it. Leighton, Jordan, and Warren demand that God save all infants or else He is evil. They cannot worship a God that would give infants justice.
Watched for 45 minutes and heard no scripture presented, just critiques of James White, who is wrong on this issue for sure. I moved on to a more fruitful discussion.
Cool bro 👍
Your comment has no scripture. I have moved on to more fruitful comments.
None of you understand the difference between a decree and ordaining something to come to pass. God's Word clearly states belief only comes to those to whom it has been ordained. It does not originate from within oneself naturally. "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed". Notice the order of things: ordained to eternal life THEN belief. The Biblical order is a man is "made alive" (regenerated) THEN he believes. As long as you insist you have some "free-will" choosing in salvation you will remain blinded to the truth and possibly, retrobate.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ac 13:48.
I would love to ask James White or any Calvinist this question: If GOD commanded us to be fruitful and multiply, why would any rational human want to do so, full-well knowing GOD could arbitrarily choose them for utter damnation?
@h2s142 But then how did the fall come about? Did GOD decree the fall?
Every human born needs to be born again . Pretty simple
@@exag0rawithout evil there can be no good.
@dfischer5878 I totally agree. But that's not answering my point. The choice is on each individual, not through complete randomness. For example, if you told me that I had a 1-in-a-billion chance of winning the lottery, I certainly wouldn't play. But if you said to me that there was a sure way of me making an equal amount of money with a certain investment, but all I had to do was invest, that choice is on me. With the lottery, I have no choice.
Is there any proof that this is what Calvinists believe anyway? I can't find it!
My husband and I have buried an infant. These conversations are difficult but needful. And it’s ok for the rhetoric to be strong on this one.
Very sorry for your loss. May the comforter stay close by you.
I’m really sorry you two lost your infant. That must have been really traumatic
I can't imagine how painful it must be. May God bless and keep you all and reunite you at the resurrection.
I am truly sorry about the loss of your child, and understand your grief and pain. My wife and I lost our first child, while she was still pregnant. I fully expect to meet that child in heaven some day. I am neither a Calvinist, nor an Arminian , but devoted follower of Jesus Christ, as my Savior and Lord! I have spent years studying Augustine, Jerome, Calvin, Wesley, Luther, and even Pelagius ( who, BTW, was NOT a heretic! ). All that to say that I am convinced of the overwhelming, eternal love of our God, and the sufficiency of Christs sacrifice for all mankind. (. && No. I am not a Universalist! ). The theologies and doctrines that a man, or mankind, “decide” how we view our God, are simply that; Doctrines and theologies developed by men. We have Gods Word available to us, and The Holy Spirit dwelling within us ( see John 14:16 ), and He, the Holy Spirit, will illuminate scripture, and teach us things ,that will always point us back to Jesus’ teachings. ( see John 14:26 ). I am convinced that your infant child, who is first and foremost, a child of God, will be waiting for you in heaven someday. I rejoice with you, as you look forward to that day!
Coming from a different religious perspective, I have been taught that "little children also have eternal life," and that if you are faithful to God, you will have the opportunity in the resurrection to raise those children.
I agree about White not answering with any substance. I hear mostly word salad and dismisive tone.
You know you've found an achilles heel when at first they rebuff, ridicule, belittle, slander. Keep poking guys you're getting closer.
Calvinists want us to “steel man” them; the problem is you can’t “steel man” incoherent, inconsistent, contradictory, duplicitous, cognitive dissonant, mindless gibberish.
Please provide a concrete reference to your claims.
@@scottsimpson9506 --- Westminster III-I
@@JohnQPublic11 🎯 Westminster Confession of Faith 1648: “God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass"
NO amount of ink spilled beyond "whatsoever" alters the definition of "whatsoever". God has decreed and unchangeably ordained "whatsoever comes to pass". I.e., within the parameters of Calvinism, there are no 'random' abortions, only those representing the perfect decreed will of God.
It's not true, but it isn't complicated....
@@scottsimpson9506 God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9!
God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined!
Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1!
Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright !
So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says !
Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue.
So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8!
But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“!
Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try!
Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross!
@@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT --- Exactly right.
God made babies to cry ..... When they need something. Hunger or poopy diapers or gassy or comfort. My daughter for example as a baby would cry every evening and the only thing that would help was walking around the house many times to get her calm. She was not how ever lying to me or being a viper in a diapers
But who are you, oh man, to reply to James White?
🤣🤣🤣
@idol killer please never apologize. Please continue to load their wagon every chance you get. If they don’t like it they can take it up with “God’s decree”.
Not a question of not liking it, it is pretty idiotic son.
What woman that believed this soul damnation destiny, would ever have any children?
Right from the mouth of my spouse: If Calvinism were true I would not want to have children.
What’s interesting about this topic is if any Calvinist has children, (regardless of their age) and thinks to themselves “I hope my Child is elect”, proves that their belief for Salvation is not solely in Christs sacrifice alone, but is in “election”. By definition this makes Calvinism a false teaching, because it changes the gospel.
Isn't that what non Calvinists think? That they hope their children will be saved?
@@nerychristian Non Christians ofcourse want their children to be saved, big difference is they teach their children best they can about the Lord and hope & pray they will invite Jesus to be their Savior. Not all do. Calvanists believe in predestination by predetermination not God's foreknowledge so Calvanist parents don't know even about themselves because robo Jesus will decide if you are born and then if you are selected. Nothing to say about your eternal fate. Good or bad it doesn't matter, you were selected problem, and if you weren't selected you have no way of knowing. So very confusing and a real hard belief. Jesus isn't the father of confusion, but we know who he is 😈
This is an underrated comment. Excellent.
@@nerychristian yes the difference is non-Calvinists can confidently preach the gospel only and trust that Jesus is the only way. Calvinists will also say accept Christ, BUT their hope for salvation is if the person is elect. It’s almost like “of course you must accept Christ, but let’s hope you’re one of the elect”. This by default cancels out Christs death and resurrection, as if it’s a throw away item. It’s certainly secondary to “election”. This as we know is the definition of a false teaching.
@@nerychristian let me also put it this way. If the answer to the Calvinist question “how do I know if I’m elect or saved?” is anything other than “do you believe that Jesus died for your sins, and the God raised Him from the dead?”, then Calvinism is false.
Too often the answer to that question by a Calvanist goes to evidence and works as a proof of salvation. John MacArthur himself is famous for answering that question with a “non-Jesus” answer.
Calvinism is not biblical, it needs to be avoided.
Wow. The bit about some Calvinist parents viewing their children through the lens of total depravity, their “cries being lies” and manipulation; at 1:20:00 mark approximately. I attended a Presbyterian church as a teen and visited the home of a Couple from the church who had a baby girl. They expressed this concept and would not answer her “manipulative cries” as a parenting strategy. She was fed and cared for on a strict schedule because they would not give in to her “manipulative behavior”.
It honestly sounds depraved and deranged and it’s sad that their erroneous theology led them to this borderline abusive loveless treatment of their own baby.
It's NOT borderline.
That’s wild but consistent…..
@JohnK557 The scariest Calvinists are the consistent ones. The rest misrepresent Calvinism in its true form and all its bad fruit. If all Calvinists churches treated women like MacArthur and Mark Driscoll do, and treated children like those monsters mentioned above, what would happen?
Would there finally be wholesale condemnation of Calvinism, with it finally recognized as a cult like LDS and JW and Christian Scientists, and the almost innumerable cults coming out of South Korea?
It’s truly scary how many people think Calvinism is true Christianity, or just a flavor option. People need to come out of it, the same as other cults misrepresenting the word of God and what Christianity is.
That is disturbing (being unresponsive) and she will likely have issues as an adult that link back to this "strategy"... I pray they all find the truth of the matter.
@@newcreationcoachingllc6491 , as a retired infant mental health professional, I can say she almost certainly will.
Marlon (a Calvinist) at The Gospel Truth is angry for some of the statements made in this video. Calvinists are wildly inconsistent.
What should also cause a pucker factor is that James White has "ministered" as a grief counselor.
That's a career choice so bad it would be like e.e. cummings (a 20th Century poet known for ignoring punctuation and for writing everything in lower case) choosing to be a newspaper headline writer, or Picasso choosing to be a police sketch artist!
He has a book about it called "Grieving"
@@DamonNomad82 🤣🤣🤣
I really love how this channel keeps its foot on Calvinism’s neck 😊
Does no such thing. It does, however, display the unregenerate heart that refuse to bow to the sovereignty of God.
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻You are correct. As the comment before, mine shows, exposing the truth about the calvinist god is of utmost importance
@@scottsimpson9506 what do you think Gods sees as more important, bowing to God‘s sovereignty or responding to His love??
Bowing to His sovereignty as one cannot/will not respond to Him before realizing, "salvation is of God". Responding to His love only happens after being "made alive" or, being made regenerate first.@@atyt11
@@scottsimpson9506yes it shows the Calvinist’s unregenerate heart that refuses to submit to God and His Word.
Calvinists always het upset when non Calvinists follow their doctrines to their unavoidable conclusions! And especially when they do so publicly!
So, when do you supply an answer to a simple question I've repeatedly asked? If the heart of man is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things then why would he ever choose to believe in, or desire that which is holy and which he hates by nature?
@@scottsimpson9506
Can an notorious criminal decide to turn himself in?
The really funny thing is that, by getting upset, they are actually disproving their own professed beliefs and treating them as if they were false (which they are)! If Calvinism were true, Calvinists would be utterly indifferent to any opposition it, because God Himself decreed that opposition, and to oppose it would be to oppose God's own decree!
@@scottsimpson9506 you are that confusing the fact of the evil heart ,with one's ability to acknowledge and confess that fact! You ate denying the sufficiently of God's own appeal !
That's no answer and you also fail to provide any Scriptural proof for what you imply. The answer is, of course, a criminal can self-incriminate but that does not absolve him of the penalty for being a criminal. The penalty stays intact and must be paid in full! @@CosmicalChrist
“We will get as deranged as God declares us to be”
🤣🤣🤣
Love your channel and thank you for all your work!
1:02:30 the irony of Calvinists who complain about Leighton's channel devoted to critique and disprove Calvinism is hilarious. If they are correct in their Calvinism, Dr. Flowers is merely acting out God's perfect will with every video he makes. And God has decreed, what the Calvinist believes, and decreed the non-Calvinists to believe the opposite. AND then, God has decreed we should argue and oppose one another publicly for his glory... and possibly his entertainment. And, on Calvinism, at least one of us is being lied to by God about himself.
But how do you know which is which? 🤷🏻♂
Great to know that all things work together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to His purposes.
@@jozzen77 Unfortunately, the Calvinist can have no assurance any particular scripture applies to him personally. He cannot be certain he's on the 'list'.
@@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT yes i can
@@jozzen77 How do you know you're not experiencing an episode of Evanescent Grace? I don't know the extent of your Calvlinist studies, But if you believe you have personal assurance of your 'election' to salvation within the parameters allowed by Calvinism, you haven't thought this through.
The problem the Calvinist has is this; Since Calvinism contends no one can believe and respond positively to God apart from God's effectual act upon them against their will, (Dr. R. E. Sproul agreed regeneration/salvation in Calvinism is akin to 'spiritual rape'), This is also true of anyone who leaves the faith or rejects Calvinism. Those who later renounce their profession of faith only do so by God's decree.
Do no suggest I do not understand Calvinism. I most certainly do. And I’d say one would be hard pressed to suggest these prominent former Calvinists didn’t ‘understand’ TULIP. Here are a few recent well known and respected de-converts:
Tyler Vela, long-time popular Calvinist apologist, now denies Christ
Paul Maxwell, a former long-time associate of John Piper/ Desiring God writer and the author of the book The Trauma of Doctrine, has announced he is no longer a Christian.
Derek Webb, artistic apologist for Reformed theology for 10yrs in his work with Caedmon's and then in his solo albums, now denies Christ.
Joshua Harris, leading Calvinist pastor and author, fonder of Sovereign Grace Ministries, associate of Louis Giglio/’Passion movement’, left ministry and the faith altogether.
All of these people affirmed Christianity and Calvinism for many years... which they also affirmed was by God's decree, just as you do. "Unconditional Election is the Calvinist fundamental premise. However, now they have abandoned their belief. And you must affirm is also only by God's decree. This means their entire Christian experience and testimony was only an episode of Evanescent Grace... their faith was fake.. by God' decree, and they had no idea.
John Calvin devised his doctrine of temporary/ ‘Evanescent Grace’. And he taught that God grants to "faith" some but withdraws it later because he was just messing with their mind for his own amusement and never really loved them anyway. This is the only way to explain those who eventually leave the faith after believing within the parameters allowed by Calvinism. This is true of long standing members of leadership as well as those simply warming a pew.
This means Calvinists are encouraged to worship a God who, in the end, cannot be trusted to love any one individual…personally, certainly not themselves. If he did it to these studied, prominent, trusted, and respected Calvinists, you have no assurance God does not already have plans to do it to you. 🤔
@@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT Jesus told me it was the will of His Father that everyone who looks to the Son and believes Him has eternal life.
James White's infantile theology condemns infants.
That’s what I think every Calvinist should consider, you love your child enough to die for it, and Jesus doesn’t. Is that the Jesus of the Gospels? NO WAY!
So, everyone is now God’s child? That’s Univeralism.
@@scottsimpson9506 Jesus Christ loves Hitler as much as anyone
Hitler is burning in Hell
Not hard to reconcile for me
"That's universalism" is a popular false accusation Calvinists like to throw at non-Calvinists when they reject "Limited Atonement", but it's utterly false. When attempting to defend their false doctrine of "Limited Atonement" (the "L" in "TULIP"), Calvinists unwittingly project their own belief in the equally false doctrine of "Irresistible Grace" (the "I" in "TULIP") onto non-Calvinists. Irresistible Grace is Scripturally disproven by Stephen in his speech to the Sanhedrin just before they stoned him to death, when he rebuked them for resisting the Holy Spirit as their fathers had (Acts 7:51-53), something that would be impossible if Irresistible Grace were true. Not only is "Irresistible Grace" anti-Biblical, it also makes God out to be a cosmic r@pist who forces Himself on those He chooses to save. Actual universalists are in agreement with Calvinism in accepting "Irresistible Grace", but not "Limited Atonement". Actual Christians reject both of those heretical false teachings.
@@scottsimpson9506he never said his child was God's child. He said you love your own child more than God loves your child if Calvinism is true. Calvinism has God commanding us to love our enemies while God does not love his enemies making God a hypocrite and making us more loving than him. Thus Calvinism is false.
I wonder if you EVER ask the why questions: such as, if Christ died for all then WHY are not all saved? What about Jesus' own words where He says, "I pray for them: I pray NOT for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine".
If Jesus says He does not pray for everyone then, the logical questions are, 1. For whom does He pray and 2. WHY does He not pray for ALL people?
Also, if you believe WHY do you believe? I can never get your types to answer that one.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 17:9.
I dont know how else to say it,but,sometimes it really seems to me that Calvinists believe in A DIFFERENT GOD THAN I DO! In a sense, we serve a DIFFERENT GOD!
I agree, I really don’t see how they don’t believe in a different gospel.
You are correct! Arminians serve a god of their own making. Not the revealed God of the Bible. You do, indeed, serve a different god with a different (heretical) gospel. Which is no God and no Gospel.
It's hilarious how easy it is to spot an ignorant Calvinist who has been in a Calvinist echo chamber for too long. They throw the term "Arminian" around, blissfully unaware that Arminius himself was a lifelong, committed Calvinist who got all his theology from John Calvin's "Institutes" and that his followers, the Arminians, are simply the moderate wing of the Calvinist movement, which was thrown out of "Calvinism" by the extremist wing at the Synod of Dort (an internal dispute within Calvinism). There are very few Arminians in the comments on this channel.
You're simply delusional to claim Arminus was a "life long Calvinist"! He was declared heretical at Dort! Your comment is the funniest thing I've ever heard coming from your camp! Seriously, learn factual history before bringing anymore nonsense to. the discussion.@@DamonNomad82
@@scottsimpson9506 Your arrogance and ignorance are quite amusing! I simply stated historical facts. Your ignorance of those facts doesn't negate them or make them "nonsense". Arminius' letters written during his lifetime clearly show that he was drawing his doctrines from Calvin's "Institutes", though he was interpreting Calvin's teachings very differently from how the extremist faction that controlled Calvinism was interpreting them. As for his being "declared heretical at Dort", that happened in 1618-1619, almost a decade AFTER Arminius died in 1609. During his life and for 8-9 years afterward, he and his followers were still officially Calvinists. The extremist faction's doubling down on their extremism and rejection of the Arminians' "kinder and gentler" version of Calvinism only meant that the extremist wing of the movement didn't acknowledge them as "Calvinists", not that they ceased to functionally be Calvinists who drew their doctrines from Calvin.
When James White talked about mercy I just kept thinking about when Commodus screamed "Am I not merciful?!"
The Calvinist opinion of a merciful God is something akin to Hitler deciding to pardon a few dozen jews out of six million, and then declaring the contrast between the two acts, "a shocking display of mercy - what wondrous, boundless grace! We should all be eternally grateful!"
The irony is, Calvinists believe that their God sends people to hell for much less, for "sins", or at best a "nature" that he pre-determined or created with complete intentional foreknowledge, on purpose, making the Calvinist God far more evil than Hitler or even Satan. There is no more despicable, morally evil deity in the imagination of man than the God Calvin invented.
@@readyplayer1900 Idiotic. You have no idea what you are talking about.
@@SugoiEnglish1 he's right in a way though.
According to Calvin, God is the one who planned the Holocaust, in detail, including everything Hitler would become and do.
The great tragedy is that the offended won't probably ever see either the original nor this clarification video, and hold to the out of context poisoned soundbyte video by the usual suspects.
Based exchange! A threefold cord is not easily broken.
Im still wondering how a Calvinist deals with names being removed from the book of life. We know it’s possible from scripture, but with election, how can you be in the book of life if not elected, and how can someone who is elected be removed from the book of life if election is guaranteed. Maybe im just overlooking something but it seems contradictory.
Why is there no offense or condemnation from Calvinists of White's uncharitable ad hominems? It's hypocritical! For many years this has been his mo, but is given a pass by most Calvinist.
Yes, but how would you correct a committed determinist?
@@EdwardPhaneuf-v6u great point!
I wonder what JW thinks of 1 Corinthians 13.
I appreciate you guys having this conversation. And especially how passionate Warren is on this.
“But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 9:14)
As a woman who had a miscarriage, I struggled so much and had so many questions for God:
1. Why did He let this happen to me?
2. Did my unborn child have a soul?
3. Was he/she in heaven?
I can’t even imagine going through that at a time when church leaders taught that all unbaptized infants go to hell because they weren’t baptized. I don’t understand how anyone could believe a just God could send babies to hell. What a perverted view of Him. May Jesus rebuke the people that hold to such a view the way He rebuked His disciples that were trying to keep the children from coming to Him!
Well said, amen! Sorry for your loss sister. What a glorious day the Lord has in store for you when you are united with your precious child in the arms of our Savior!
You just need to read the Bible for yourself. Look at Jesus' words...for such is the kingdom of heaven. He's saying they're innocent. They will become sinners, but obviously they're children, and not accountable yet
Some will say that they can't believe in a God who sends anyone to hell
@@nerychristian yes and I understand. But through different eyes, humans chose to disobey and lose relationship with God. I mean he said don't eat it, you will die! Sin enters, hell is designed for the devil and his angels, and the devil's tricked people into ending up there.... But God provides the lamb Jesus.... To pay for the sin of the world, so actually, God provided the way out of hell for everyone. People don't like it for lots of reasons though.
I think I'm beginning to see that God doesn't send people to hell, they choose it though. Somehow it's not real to me, I didn't become a Christian to escape hell, but because I saw what Jesus did for me, and everyone else 💖
@@onethingisneedful Yes, true. Hell is something that most people don't really think about. But it's a real place. Just imagine a giant lake of fire, and being thrown into it. And not dying. Neverending pain and torture, with no hope of ever getting out. Complete darkness, never ever being able to experience anything good again. No more love, no more peace, no more joy, no more rest, no more hope. Completely cut off from everyone you love.
This literally makes me sick to my stomach. That people believe that God would send an infant to hell.
Who are you, oh man, to question God?
@@scottsimpson9506
A man that believes GOD IS LOVE and the JESUS THAT SAID WE MUST BE LIKE LITTLE KIDS TO MAKE HEAVEN.
So, we must work to become childlike to enter Heaven? You Arminians just pile on the works self-righteousness for justification. If you deny this then explain what you mean we must be childlike to "make Heaven". @@CosmicalChrist
@@scottsimpson9506 Calvinistic Preacher Charles Spurgeon 1861
"This brings me now to note THE REASONS WHY WE THUS THINK INFANTS ARE SAVED.
First, we ground our conviction very much upon the goodness of the nature of God. We say that the opposite doctrine that some infants perish and are lost, is altogether repugnant to the idea which we have of Him whose name is love. If we had a God whose name was Moloch, if God were an arbitrary tyrant, without benevolence or grace, we could suppose some infants being cast into hell; but our God, who heareth the young ravens when they cry, certainly will find no delight in the shrieks and cries of infants cast away from his presence."
@@scottsimpson9506he or she is actually questioning peoples belief of the character of God. Has nothing to do with her questioning God, oh man. It’s a perversion of God’s character.
The difference between Calvinists and Non-Calvinist argumentation:
When the Calvinist accuses the non-calvinist of claims they have never made, eg. God is not sovereign, non-calvinists do not believe in grace alone etc, the Calvinist is imposing what they think is the logical implication of non-calvinist beliefs, that is only logically inevitable if the non-calvinist uses the same redefinitions (Sovereignty, Free Will, Love, Grace, Works, All, Whosoever etc) that the Calvinist uses. The moment you expose the fact that their conclusions are not logically inevitable if we do not follow their redefinitions it becomes clear that what they accuse non-calvinists of simply does not hold water.
When the non-calvinist points out the logical implications of the Calvinist worldview, although it is true that Calvinist do not claim what those logical implications are, it is also true that said logical implications (such as the fact that God necessarily becomes the author of evil and that moral responsibility is incoherent) are logically inevitable, which the Calvinist would "appeal to mystery" in an last-ditched attempt to defend their position. What the Calvinist truly stands for, whether they accept it or not, then boils down to what they would choose to appeal to mystery:
1: Appeal to mystery as to how God is not the author of evil despite theistic determinism. (The appeal aims to preserve theistic determinism and a very narrow/idiosyncratic definition of sovereignty)
VS
2: Appeal to mystery as to how God can be sovereign (Calvinist definition) and Man can still have free will. (The appeal would preserve the impeccability of God's nature and the genuineness of love and human responsibility)
The bias that Calvinist have for 1 instead of 2 exposes what they prioritize in their worldview, and that is Determinism is more important than the perfection of God, authenticity of Love (That must be freely chosen to be considered genuine) and the justice involved in moral responsibility (punishing beings for things completely not within their control is injustice by standard definitions).
There are plenty of comments in Marlins reaction vid that are on yalls side
This topic about new borns who die or aborted babies go to hell is the death of Calvinism.
Never let this topic go. This should be the go to closing argument for every video moving forward…
💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽
Revelation 20 says that at the last great judgment, we will all be judged according to what we have done. Infants have done nothing against God. Also, God gave many evil people in the Old Testament, like Ahab in 1 Kings, repeated opportunities to repent and turn from his evil ways. And we are to believe God throws innocent children into hell?? Doesn’t compute!
White and other Cavinists use the word, "can," all the time.
We non calvinists never argue against, "can." An all powerful God CAN do anything.
We argue against what Calvinists claim God did, and does. They are wrong, as Genesis 3 proves.
Jordan nailed it. False piety. I see that in a lot of these guys.
Ao judging now? I see unread and idiocy among anti-Calvinists.
What if the person does not have a nefarious intention but the spirit that is over them does? There are doctrines of demons. Jesus said to Peter satan get behind me while Peter was thinking what he was saying was good and right. I’m not saying label them this or that, but discern the spirit that may be behind their intentions.
John said, “I write this to you so that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah!” John 20:31
So, John 6 was written to prove Jesus is the Messiah.
In context John begins chapter 6 with Jesus performing miracles to prove Jesus is the Messiah.
Jesus had said, "If you believed Moses you would believe me, for he wrote about me!"
John 5:46
So In John 6 Jesus is speaking about people who were believers who belonged to God the Father and who were looking for the Messiah WHO WAS TO COME.
The Father "gives" these believers to Jesus, the Messiah, who they were looking for.
Jesus says in John 6:65,
“This is why I TOLD YOU (referring back to and INTERPRETING VERSE 44) that no one can come to me (has the ability) unless the FATHER ENABLES them!”
The Loving Father (1 John 4:8) enables, by grace, everyone to have the ability to come freely; not compelled like Calvinists teach.
“The GRACE of God has appeared that offers salvation to all men!” Titus 2:11 (See 1 Corinthians 15:10)
“Jesus said, the work of God is this, to believe in the one he has sent!” John 6:29
Jesus said, “When I am lifted up, I will draw (not compel, John 6:65) ALL men to myself!" John 12:32
So, all people, Jew and Gentile, have the ability to be free to choose, not compelled.
Calvinists cannot answer why Adam sinned and fell from grace when he was created “good” and in a perfect environment in the Spirit and in communion with God.
But Adam used his free will to fall from the grace of God (and so will Christians who use their free will to stop believing).
But this is the foundation of their so called” logical system” which they read into the Bible.
The greatest creation of God is a human created in the image of God with the mystery of free will which Calvinism takes away and makes people puppets who do not decide their own salvation destiny.
Man is "dead in sin" separated from God, but God in His grace, which is GOD WORKING IN US (See Philippians 2:12-13, Hebrews 4:12, Romans 1:16, John 16.8), energizes men to exercise their free will to turn from being dead in sin to alive in Christ!
Using their Calvinist glasses, the Calvinist reads Ephesians to say,
“God chose us (TO BE) in Christ before the creation of the world!” Ephesians 1:4 ?
No! It says, “God chose US IN CHRIST before the creation of the world TO BE HOLY and blameless in His sight!”
Jesus is the Only chosen ONE. Luke 9:35
Verse 13 says we became chosen IN CHRIST when we chose to believe by the grace of God working in us, and then we are regenerated.
(See John 20:31 where believing comes before life)!
The order is:
Grace -> repentance/faith -> new life in Christ
A slam dunk reason why Calvinism is a heresy, is because of their doctrine of the atonement which says GOD the Father poured out his wrath and damned GOD HIS Son, and THE SECOND PERSON OF THE TRINITY WAS CUT OFF FROM THE FIRST PERSON!
(SEE RC Sproul, Piper, McArthur, etc) Jeff Durbin?
This SPLITS THE TRINITY and/or divides Christ into two persons which is the Nestorian heresy.
This atonement heresy was not taught until Calvin came along. (Christus Victor was from the beginning.)
Calvinists have INNOCENT JESUS being condemned when Proverbs 17:15 says this is an abomination of justice.
Plus, Calvinists call their monster God “loving” who creates people and predestines most of them to go to hell with no chance to believe and be saved.
This includes babies in the womb. If not, then it would be best to let people abort all babies so they would not go to hell.
Plus, Esau was NOT a reprobate. Read in the Old Testament Genesis chapter 33. Esau was saved!
It is a Prodigal Son story where Jacab looks at Esau and sees “THE FACE OF GOD.”
So, there goes Romans 9 for the Calvinists.
In context God was electing the line to Jesus through Jacob instead of Esau. This is not an election to salvation.
Ironically, Calvinism is the doctrine of demons, not grace!
Calvinists love Calvinism, because they were chosen and to hell with everyone else!
Pride! The number one sin which we all have!
I feel that same way about john calvins god is a monster like satan.😈
Bingo
The knowledge of good and evil makes us accountable. Until a child or an “idiot” has that, God seems to welcome them based on how Jesus tells us to be more like them.
A Jehovahs witness leader called babies “enemies of God”. From there I spiraled down the rabbit hole of total depravity and the concept of original sin. Then I started learning about calvinism and immediately rejected it because it does not align with scripture
White's position on the eternal destiny of infants that die is consistent with the predestined before birth. If a person's destiny is determined by God before they are created, then of course, each one is assigned to heaven or hell whether they live or die.
Same soul, same assigned destiny, whether they live to adulthood, or die in infancy. It is a consistent belief.
A calvinist that rejects this belief (Piper) is being inconsistent with the "elect," and "predestined," belief of their doctrine.
This is a perfect example of the problem that develops when Christians (Augustine) create their own concept of God.
It's impossible to get out of the quick-sand they jump into.
Matthew 26:21-25 NKJV
[21] Now as they were eating, He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.” [22] And they were exceedingly sorrowful, and each of them began to say to Him, “Lord, is it I?” [23] He answered and said, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. [24] The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! *It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”* [25] Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, “Rabbi, is it I?” He said to him, “You have said it.”
I'll repeat myself once again. If this is how poorly James White argues on this yopic, the how much can you trust what he says on topics you happen to agree with him on?
Great segment!
(Caps are used for emphasis and not yelling.)
It appeared to me from what I heard from the Calvinist that it's wrong, BECAUSE I SAID SO. Just like the evidence used to show that God isn't the author of evil, this is refuted by appealing to what a Christian confession says. He is saying without "citing." This is the same thing that Jehovah's Witnesses do. They say without citing Scripture. And we are supposed to believe what they say simply because they say it is so. Just like the Jehovah's Witnesses, they cannot stay with the subject. They can't answer the objections...they have to run off somewhere else. They set themselves up as the authority and arbitrator of truth (as JW's) and you better agree with them because to believe otherwise is to believe something that is not true. If you have the truth it will stand up to scrutiny.
The argument of God ordaining the end and the means is like the Calvinist who believes that somehow secondary causes make a difference when you believe in theistic determinism. There could be 1,000 causes or 1,000 means, but it doesn't change the fact that God determined who or who won't believe. He created them with an inability to choose other than the choice God predetermined they would choose. So He predetermined that His "means" and "secondary causes" would be unsuccessful. They do not have a free will or free choice to make because they are born, by God's determinate will, to hate Him, to reject Him, to love their sin, to do evil, etc. So their claim of the "ends" and well as the "means" and secondary causes shows God doing things that will not be successful. To the Calvinist I would ask, "Is God trying but not succeeding?"
Voodie loves saying “Viper in a diaper” 🤦🏽🤦🏽🤦🏽
McCarther and Piper are shining example of the cognitive dissonance inherent in Calvinism. JW does not have to deal with such inconsistencies because he fully accepts that God damns the innocent. His inconsistency boils down to defining what would be evil as being good.
Not dams the innocent ; there are no innocent no one is good no not one.
All need to be born again.
The fact that any Calvinist attempts to use Romans 1 as a proof text just shows their Calvinist lens. Repetition is how a non punctuated language typically shows emphasis, and Paul says 3 different ways that those that reject the truth BECOME useless, and as a result God gives them over, and yet they PULL from it that man is given to uselessness before they are born.
We only read where Jesus chastised His followers for blocking little children from jumping into His lap. If the Christ didn't discriminate, neither should we.
White accuses Leighton of preaching against Calvinism as a form of evangelism while Calvinists recruit Calvinite’s from people who are ALREADY CHRISTIANS! What hypocrisy!!!
Thank you guys. Great job as usual. So appreciate bringing truth and clarity do a very important topic.👊🏼👍🏻
I'm not calvinist, but I'm unsettled on this topic
I'll keep praying about it
I am surprised you remain unsettled!
Kent - here's why
The bible seems clear that all people are born into sin (psalm 51, Romans 5)
It's also clear that faith in Christ is the only way to be saved (John 3, 14:6)
Explanations for eternal destiny of infants working differently than all others stated above seem to rely on one of three arguments:
1. God is loving and would never send infants to hell
2. There must be some (unknown) age of accountability that we are not made aware of
3. Davids statement in 2 Samuel 12
For me, none of these are quite definitive enough for me to fully embrace the doctrine , so I remain unsettled 🤷
@@HammerHeadBubba while it’s true we are born in sin, one is only guilty of sin if they commit a transgression.
All people in heaven are redeemed by Jesus’s shed blood. Therefore, even those born prior to the death of Jesus are ultimately cleansed by his blood, even though they never knew him.
Short answers
I dint think you guys push against Calvinism too much. U dont think thats possible since tge Calvinists have " had the microphone " for about 400 years,and most if them are very aggressive ( if not outright pushy),in pushing their horrible doctrine! There is still way more trees being sacrificed in spreading Calvinism, than there are in opposing it!
God does not answer to man! Man answers to God! A lesson I learned from losing twin daughters at their birth forty years ago! They never had a “chance” to accept Christ as their Savior! They never read the “Four Spiritual Laws” nor were they able to walk down front of the church after the sixth singing of “Just As I Am”! But I firmly believe my twin daughters are with Jesus! Because I believe God is in charge of Salvation not man! I happen to believe heaven is full of aborted babies BECAUSE God is the “Author of Salvation” not man! There is great comfort in my soul for this truth! I think of them daily!
Here we have 3 Christians giving cover again for Calvinists. Very sad. He who preaches another chirst than the Christ of Scripture is an antichrist. They do NOT have the spirit of God in them. James White well defines the term. Leighton opens up this video by stating that the god of Calvinism is not the god of Scripture. He calls him a fiend! Yet, by the end of the video, it's the same tune: Christians advocating for syncretic worship with the Calvinist religion. Christians, if you want to understand why the cult of Calvinism survives, it's due in no small measure to Christians like these who are willing to apologize for it and claim it as 'Christian'.
I've been waiting for over 10 years for Leighton to put the pieces together, but he's no closer to understanding the danger of the cult of Calvinism to the Christian faith than he was at the beginning of his trip down Soteriology101 lane.
when will you start to study the sacred scriptures and see that God clothed guilty Adam and Eve with the sacrificial skins he carried , and that Abel was righteous because his works were righteous in First John chapter 3v12, and we read in Hebrews chapter Abel was a child of Adam and Eve, but you focus on Cain the wicked One and ignore Abel , we know that God destroyed the whole world in Genesis chapter because it was wicked, but God spared Noah because he was a righteous man who walked with God, and we read in Hebrews11v4, that Able witnessed to his righteousness by the gift he offered to and in Hebrews chapter 11v7 Noah warned of God built and Ark to save his household ,and became the heir of righteousness by faith,
"And when a child has been born to one of them, they give thanks to God; and if moreover it happen to die in childhood, they give thanks to God the more, as for one who has passed through the world without sins. And further if they see that anyone of them dies in his ungodliness or in his sins, for him they grieve bitterly, and sorrow as for one who goes to meet his doom."
Aristides:The Apology of Aristides (125 A.D.)
I don't see how the criticism changes for Calvinists who dom't affirm infant damnation. If God reprobates your child, why does it matter at which stage of life they end up damned? They didn't have any control over their eternal destiniy in either case.
If I'm not mistaken, White is a classical theist who holds to impassibility. If I'm correct, this would explain his view of an indifferent God and the filter of a wrathful hating God with which he reads Scripture through.
It should be called closed theism…….
Is Warren willing to share his slide show with all the quotes?
LEIGHTON, you’re no longer‘choice meat’ , but have been demoted to ground meat, according to Whit!🤣😅😂😆
White always seems to mention that he is "reformed/ orthodox" as if that is synonymous with being Calvinist. But it is not because much of his systematized theology is Catholic. Notice how he never repents even when admitting he was wrong, instead he deflects and makes false accusations. If it weren't for Jeff Durbin, I doubt he would still have a ministry at all - such as it is...I can't even imagine having to sit thru one of his sermons on these type issues.