That's the main issue imo. People say generational talent, which should only apply to a prospect, and people think of players accomplishments. Generational talents are really about a mix of size, skill, and athleticism. Shaq, KD, Bron, Wemby, Yao, maybe Duncan, AI and AD. That's the list of generational talents going back to the 90s imo.
I think Luka is/ was a generational talent, being a Euroleague MVP and champion and winning the european Championship at 17 is generational, nobody did it before and it's unlikely that one ever will. The way he plays is unique and generational as well. All NBA First Team in every year since His Rookie season.
@@Bdog_45 i watched it, and he's generational in Terms of accomplishments (as I stated) and Playstyle, or Name one player as tall as Luka who plays like him
I think a big part of it, especially the mimicry, CAN anyone even come close to copying it. Steph Curry is incredible, generational, but its possible for a guy to come along that shoots close to that. Someone like Shaq's playstyle and size is not copyable. You can't dominate in the way Shaq did with practice
but with Steph its a lot more than the shooting, who has ever been able to shoot like him for THAT long while breaking and setting records and people have been trying to mimic him for years now, they can’t, everybody wants to be Steph but no one has even come close
its possible, but it hasn't happened. and no Dame, Harden etc do not come close. is it more possible than someone being born with Shaqs genetics? those are also 'possible'
@nevohyams yeah I totally I agree! I think the last sentence I said was more what I meant; "shaq isn't copyable with practice" - I guess arguably? Steph is with practice. Also I think the time-frame for being like steph is still in the early middle stages!
Exactly. There’s no way you can call a prospect “generational” and then proceed to have 12 teams pass up on you. Obviously he became one of the greatest, but at the time of his draft, no way was he generational
Flagg is a fantastic player and does so many things on the court at a high level but he doesn’t have the scoring ability to be a generational talent or superstar. not saying he can’t develop that but right now as a prospect I wouldn’t say he’s a generational, lock number 1 pick type player.
His defense alone is enough to be labeled a superstar. His scoring ability is still developing but he’s already a fantastic dunker and his shooting will come with time. He is only 17.
Flagg can be a much more polished offensively version of J. Isaac and thats okay since Isaac is a world class defender and if someone like that can have an offensive game then they're a perennial all star
Fans & media have conflated “freak athlete” with “generational talent”. MJ, KD, Steph, LeBron, Shaq, Magic are all generational talents Zion, Kyrie, Ja Morant, Ant, even Giannis in my opinion are all examples of freak athletes or extremely skilled players, but aren’t necessarily generational
These are facts! Also to add I think instead of throwing the word around so loosely we should acknowledge and give appreciation to the ones we have while we have em. We’ve been blessed. Three truly generational talents (Steph, Bron, and KD) all in the league and competing against each other in their respective primes at the same time! That’s something we may never see again.
Can you do a video about sleeper players in college basketball. Like don’t be surprised if these players go late in the first or in the second round. Like Javon Small for wvu. Bro is averaging 19 4 and 4 while shooting 41% from 3. I can see him being drafted late
Crazy pull to see a Javon small mention, went to hs with him I remember we played Westfield and him and Brayden smith at Purdue now we’re duking it out and I knew they’d both go far now they’re both some of the best guards in college ball
Generational Talents (not players) 1. Zion Williamson 2. Steph Curry 3. Kevin Durant 4. Derrick Rose 5. Dwight Howard 6.Yao Ming 7. Lebron James 8. Vince Carter 9. Shaq 10. Wilt 11. Pistol Pete 12. Kyrie Irving Those came to mind. Might edit to add others
It’s rare that players labeled “generational” BEFORE the draft ever live up to it, not even greats like Kobe and Curry were considered generational when they were coming into the league
I see generational as no one will ever be able to mirror what you did on the basketball court not career wise but just as a basketball player in itself which is why I don’t have many players as generational
Great video, I see some people point to it but there’s differences between generational talent and generational career. I liked your point defining generational by the likelihood of finding another version of him. What are your thoughts on who will be the most forgotten players/talent? I see players like Damian Lillard (hidden behind Steph) and Kawhi Leonard (lack of health) become forgotten.
Part of this conversation was about how the generational label has changed and used differently. It is time we acknowledge someone can have generational parts of their game. No it doesn’t make someone generational off bat. But someone can be generational through other areas of the game collectively rather then just how they put the ball in the basket. Example Tony Allen is generational. Herb Jones defense is getting up there but there is definitely still a gap.
@@jonathantolbert6554 I don’t think that’s ever been problematic. But very rarely is that the conversation starter. It usually is x is a “generational player”. If someone says this player could be a generational passer or defender I think that changes the entire trajectory of the convo.
Can two things be true at once? Yes. Victor=Chet. Chet=Victor. I genuinely think that everything that is said about wemby is mirrored to Chet. Time will tell.
Giannis is more generational than Jokic because not a single Player has ever played like Giannis for the length that he has and come into the league how he did and accomplish what he's done as a result. Giannis is generational because his handle and ability to drive is only matched by LeBron and Westbrook, but Giannis is 7ft tall and just as athletic as some of the best guards the league has ever seen. His motor is unmatched as well. He would literally play so hard that he would get free throw violations because he needed to catch his breath. That's a generational motor.
Anthony Davis is definitely a generational player. Obviously a lot of us want more from his career but it terms of what he does on the floor it is generational. And that doesn’t mean we won’t see another AD cause that’s not the definition of generational, it’s just that we will only see his type of player once in a generation.
To me you can have multiple generational players in one generation. Jockic and Luka would be my current generational players. I mean luka has gone down this year (28/8/8)💀 but thats also coming off an injury. But yea these 2 players both especially Jokic this year played huge parts in carrying there team especially in current nba where teams are starting to hecome deeper just because the braoder pool of talent and competitiveness.
P you’re getting at something I’ve thought about for a while. With the exception of Kobe’s similarity to Jordan, none of the consensus top 15 players of all time (could be 25 or even 30 but there’s much less consensus in that range) plays like anyone who came before them. They all carved out their own unique style of being great
Ehh Bron has a bit of Magic. Curry has some Nash/Reggie. KD has some Iceman. There's like 5 bigs in there who all passed some down to the ones after. Duncan is kind of a mix of Russell and Wilt. Most of the newer guys (Bron and after) are a mix of 2 guys.
@ there’s only so many ways to play basketball so of course players will have similarities, but the broader point is they all have a defining part of their game which is unique to them
Thank you P. I'm am so tired of hearing this generational talent phrase so loosely. LeBron Zion(even if he hasn't lived up to it) jokic and Wemby. Tatum my guy, is a great well rounded talent and Ant man is as well but they aren't generational
Okay let's open this can of worms. You're right, i think the "generational" terms should be reserved only for a set of things we see in one player that we've never seen before him and/or since him BUT i personally will still accept if the time gap is long enough. For example, Joel embiid. Coming out of the draft he's touted as a generational talent as the most skilled big since hakeem. That's still counts both as generational. Because i can't accept a "generational" talent with similar skillset playing in the same timespan. Like jordan and kobe, it's either both are "generational" (which again defeats the purpose of the term) or none of them are "generational". Jokic, and as much as i love him, sengun is on his way to match him. Luka with shai. curry with trae young. KD with tatum. And all of this is not to discredit any of the players i named, they're all at the pinnacle of basketball and probably will end up in the HOF when all things said and done. But "generational" are as it is named, once every generation
The term generational prospect is probably the most overused in sports. Since the year 2000 I would say there’s only been 4 generational prospects. Lebron, AD, Zion, and Wemby. And 2/4 lived up to the billing, Wemby still in progress, and Zion not living up to that status. And for anyone questioning AD, you just need to go back and watch his College tape lol. Also, Andrew Wiggins was like borderline generational too. Definitely the best true wing prospect since Lebron.
@ as big of a Luka fan as I am, I don’t think he was really generational just because of how bad of an athlete he is. Ofc he worked out and turned into a superstar, but it’s not common bad athletes turn out to be as good as him.
@@Matt4pf tbf though we’re talking about someone being a generational TALENT not athlete. But yeah I’d probably agree if we give the word generational its proper meaning Luka wouldn’t be generational cause that literally means there can only be one dude this good in 15-20 years and after bron the next one to deserve that title is probably wemby although the Zion hype was also similar
I don't think Wiggins is that close to generational considering Embiid was seen as the #1 prospect most of the later draft cycle until his injury concerns dropped him. I think if you add anyone to those 4 it'd be Oden
Shaq is definitely a 1 of 1 i believe the Orlando Shaq was the best version of shaq i think wemby is the closest to Kevin Durant because of his skills set especially if he puts ot all together there will never be another Jordan LeBron magic wilt Shaq kd and Jokic is definitely generational ive never seen a center with his passing skills loke ever and the fact that hes probably going to win 3 straight mvps just puts the icing on the cake
Generational in sports means very few or only one type of player to me. But talent, production and potential should be differentiated. Like Curry has generational production, Shaq was a generational talent and MPJ had generational potential🤷🏽♂️
I think the bar for generational is somewhere around Anthony Davis and Larry Bird not to say either is or isn't generational, just they’re the minimal form of what could be generational to me.
Jokic more generational than Giannis, though Giannis himself is generational. Would love to see some sort of vid tier ranking generational players in that way
I think generational has to be broken down into two different categories. You have generational talents and generational players/athletes. With Generational talents these are players that possess a skillset or ability that make them great ie a Curry, Jokic, or Durant. Then you have your generational athletes which are players who may have the ability but possess the athleticism and tools to be great at any facet of any sport ie the Shaq, Jordan, Lebron’s of the world. Both in which are rare in all respective fields. The overuse of the word happens due to people being desperate to find the next great player, and in turns attaches a trait from a prospect to a generational player in hopes everything with grow along the way.
Not having Kareem is an oversight honestly. At all stages of his career he was considered a once in a lifetime player. Just like MJ, he got labeled the GOAT extremely early on in his career. Wilt and Bill Russell each had their own drawbacks but Kareem did everything you could ever want from a 70s-80s center, and did it at an all time clip. He had a 35ppg season, he had a 17 rebound season, he had multiple 4 block seasons, and won while doing it. This is strictly the NBA too, he's widely considered the greatest thing to ever step foot on an NCAA floor and did it without playing varsity his freshman year.
I think Zion is a generational talent. As of right now, he hasn’t achieved the expectations set up for him. But looking at Zion as a talent, there has never been a player with his size, weight and athleticism doing what he was doing in college. The big man type dominance with a decent handle and insane speed at that size is unheard of. For him, injuries are unfortunately what’s been taking him out.
might be subjective but my rule of thumb is if i’d make a 2k eras with them or not. Magic/Bird, Lebron, Curry, Kobe, etc. For me the current era would go to jokic. obviously not fool proof but for me it’s a good rule of thumb.
I promise it’s not bias, but Dirk was generational. Changed the way the big position is played in the NBA and essentially the way we see it played now. Pretty much spearheaded the European movement in the NBA. First European player to win MVP. European bigs with a decent jump shot were compared to him for years. Plenty of them were drafted with the hopes of being Dirk and we still have seen it
Shaq ✅ Steph Curry ✅ Michael Jordan ✅ LeBron James ✅ Kevin Durant ✅ Tim Duncan ✅ Magic Johnson ✅ Kareem Abdul-Jabbar ✅ Hakeem Olajuwon ✅ Nikola Jokic ✅ Victor Wembanyama....he can be but he's only in his 2nd year. To be determined Here's a name that I think can and should be looked at as generational....Dirk Nowitzki
Does generational talent constitute a successful career bc id argue someone like embiid is a generation talent despite his lack of success and injury history.
Yeah I don’t think so because you can have a generational talent that don’t develop into anything and then there’s curry, luka, jokic, and giannis. Generational talent ≠ successful career. It takes way more
I agree with almost everything you said, but I do pushback on the idea that Zion wasn’t “generational”. To me, Zion was a generational prospect; his athleticism, his defense, his touch around the rim, his dunking ability, his ability to take over a game, his playmaking upside, he had everything but the 3. While we have seen a player exhibit those traits both in the NBA & in college, Zion was a 1 of 1 athlete. Z was probably going to come into the NBA and be a top 3 athlete immediately, that’s rare, that’s generational, and his archetype is incredibly unique outside of Chuck, who was his only real comparison, and they are very very different players. I’m okay with him not being labeled as generational, the rationale behind it makes so much sense, but to me, he was. Incredibly frustrating that injuries have sapped what was supposed to be one of the most electric and emphatic players the game has ever seen
I think its a fun conversation when its more granular and people aren’t labeled as just generational talents or players as a whole. Kobe wasn’t a generational talent, but I think giving him a generational work ethic title would be fair. Iverson and/or Kyrie gotta be considered generational dribblers. I don’t think Zion was ever a generational talent, but back in his peak he was absolutely a generational athlete. If the lens is just generational overall talent and skill, it’s just the top 10 list.
@@scopezzbro2458 to me that’s the an incredible like sub category to have outside of the generation players list. Because Kobe work ethic should be championed.
I agree with most of the players you deemed generational except Duncan, we can’t really call him generational when there is a KG in the same generation as him. Sure he is no where near the passer Tim is, but the rest of their game is very similar.
@@jeremybeauregard7684 not mad at this. In my notes Duncan has a “???” With an arrow pointing towards KG. He’s tough because I clearly agree with you but there’s apart of me that thinks he’s not galaxies away from Kg but there’s a gap. But this convo makes me think is that from player to player talent to talent or situation to situation. KG was dealt a tough hand in Minny. Thank you for the comment 🫡
Would you put John Stockton or Allen Iverson as generational? PGs still haven't come close to John Stockton's passing/steals records and Allen Iverson set the standard for slashing PGs. Not sure we've really seen either of them since
It depends on the definition of ‘generational’. For some it means ‘once in a generation’ and for others it means ‘defined a generation’. The 2000s were defined by Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, LeBron and to a lesser extent AI, Garnett, Dirk, D Wade. Depending on your definition all of them could be generational or only 1 or 2
It also depends on if you're talking talent or accomplishments or even impact. Generational talent is completely different than the others. Yao for example made little impact on the US fandom but his talent was undeniable.
@@tonyschimmoeller agreed. AI is another guy who just judging by stats and accomplishments could be considered ‘just’ a great player, but his unique skills and cultural impact cast a larger shadow
Does living up to the expectations matter in being a generational prospect? Zion as a prospect coming out of Duke did seem generational because his athleticism at his sized was ridiculous.
Zion being injured has nothing to do with him not being generational, Zion is for sure a generational player he’s averaging 24 for his career most players have never done that his early in their careers
Disagree about the Jordan/Kobe thing mostly because Kobe played more like 2nd 3peat Jordan but he didn’t really mimic or resemble the late 80s/ 1st 3peat Jordan when he was at his best. Idk that we’ve seen something approaching that, closest thing would be idk early D Wade but even that is maybe not quite
I think Giannis is more generational than Jokic Cause we have guys like Alperen Sengun and domantas Sabonis who are kinda like lower level players that can mimic what Jokic does there’s no one really who can mimic Giannis even at a lower level
The concept of generational should only apply to guys leading up to the draft. For as great as Steph Curry is, he was far from a generational prospect. Same with Kobe. It’s too easy to retroactively look back and call all time greats generational.
Feel like we’re mixing up generational and transcendent here. If Mike was generational and Kobe was the next generations Mike then he was absolutely generational there was no other wing as dynamic on both sides of the ball with his fundamentals skills and athleticism while Steph is a transcendent talent he changed and influenced the game but the existence of dame and Trae in his era makes him not generational.
Not a one to one but a bit similar. I think he's a different build of player just off the fact that he has so many more facets in his game which is why I probably won't say he is a modern magic.
I don’t know if guys r just obsessed with muscle or in the closet. But skill level can be generational and basketball iq can too. Jordan was generational period don’t over think it. Steph too
I would say there’s abt 3-5players every decade that can be considered generational…. For example, 2020s - Luka joel Giannas wemby jokic and maybe a super young player like Paolo or ant can get there and 2010s is curry Durant bron Westbrook harden and kawhi maybe…. Smb like Tatum, and smb like Dwayne wade or Chris Paul have to many predecessors that are like them which is why i said maybe to ant and didn’t even mention Tatum
The argument you can make for Cooper on why he might be generational is because of the fact that he reclassified. When was the last college player that was as good as him that skipped his senior year and went directly into the NCAA?
@@onlywiigame. Not too many players in recent years have done it and still remained top draft picks. Only players that come to mind are guys like Wiggins and KAT. It's pretty rare to skip a whole grade and still dominate college ball
P love ur vids and input, I gotta hard disagree w this one man. U just basically named the top 15 players of all time and called only them generational except Kobe and Wemby. I agree 1 of 1s are generational, but I think that's a term that should be used for more players than just the top 15 oat. I think Zion was 100% a generational talent. Also, ur only looking at players that acc panned out, which I think is unfair. Generational talent is not a hindsight award to give out; it's something u do during the scouting process. I don't think Jokic was a generational talent, because he wasn't like that during draft time. Ofc he's a top 15 oat and generational player, but there's a huge difference between talent and player imo. For example I think Yao was a generational talent, but curry wasn't
Cooper isn’t a generational talent. If you’re a team; if you’re picking Cooper your picking him because of his defensive floor not his offensive ceiling
Do you have to be 1A in the draft coming into the NBA to be generational because certain players have developed into generational but weren’t looked at so such as curry and kobe. I think worth ethic, perfect situation and good development has to be on ur side to become generational
That’s a interesting thought. I do believe all generational talents in this conversation context of best of best. Yes You have to be a 1A. But, there are generational role players. Tony Allen, klay, draymond, Robert horry, Dennis Rodman etc..
Respectfully I think your problem with the word stems from the draft conversation not the aftermath of a career. And in that sense I’d say though KD, Giannis, and Jokic I think are great examples of a type of game a way of dominance we probably will never see again and with go down as generational players they weren’t stamped with that tag coming in. The emphasis when coming in is more similar to your Wemby take this guy has the potential, this guy has the tools etc. which obviously I agree with. So I think when calling a prospect generational not only is it an individual tag you put on the player as a scout/analyst but EVERYONE thought Zion would be and he had the tools to be shoot if he somehow got past the injuries and stayed on the court he probably still could be, is it likely anymore? No, but that’s why when viewing a players career after it’s over or over a decade in like Jokić and Giannis is so different that trying to be right on who that next guy definitely is. Same thing could be said for Curry as I said for KD, Giannis and Jokic. My point here is the differentiation on when the word is used is major, and as it does go for draft prospects I do agree it is used too much, but you ca change the tag you put on the player at the time just because they didn’t pan out that way, it’s better to say they had the tools to be generational they were a generation talent at the time, but if Vic wasn’t doing what he is doing we couldn’t just change the fact he was the most hyped since LeBron coming into the league. Idk I think heinsight adds a lot to the conversation obviously but what was said is typically an indication of how the general community felt or a specific person felt about a prospect. Now as it goes for the Kobe point. I see your point as he did overlap with Jordan and Lebron, even succes Mike still won after he entered the league and Lebron made the finals before Kobe was done winning. But I think from a career analysis standpoint on the term “generational” it means the type of player who we will probably never see again including what they accomplished and how they did it. That being said if Jordan is then Kobe is too it just so happens that somehow a near replica of the greatest player of all time played at the same time as him. For instance if Kobe just entered the league today and was a rookie and went down the same career path (obviously not possible but it’s a hypothetical so stay with me) we would view him as generational, we would say the same things such as “the second coming of Jordan” I think the way Kobe actually separates himself to be different is their mindset/work ethic (to be clear they both along with and player that accomplishes that much are on another level from any other player) it’s the difference between the Mamba Mentality of I will outwork myself before you outwork me that seeming inhuman will to be better (Kobe) vs the I just am better I put the work in, I am am better and you say otherwise I’ll show you I am (Jordan) that difference though similar is what allowed Kobe to be the next Jordan and I don’t think that will, that desire and that success in doing exactly what he planned to do will be match so in my opinion they are both “generation players”. My list would probably be slightly longer than yours too the same point though I might have players you don’t and you might have players I don’t neither takes away from their greatness it is just a different categorization of them and my list would also be split into two lists “generational players” players who I without a doubt look back on and view as generational and “generational talents” players who had all the tools to do it and were viewed as so prior to their career. There would be some overlap but I think if we looked back a lot of the guys who did become generational were never viewed as so coming in and a lot of the guys who were supposed to never ended up being so. Anyways great video it’s been a minute since I caught a vid of yours but keep up the great work on your solo channel and on the pod TTW/NOTB has been my favorite basketball pod for years and though I haven’t watched yall as much recently keep up the good work anytime I tune in I know it’ll be the best basketball discourse I hear all week.
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There’s a very big difference between a generational prospect and a generational player.
That's the main issue imo. People say generational talent, which should only apply to a prospect, and people think of players accomplishments. Generational talents are really about a mix of size, skill, and athleticism. Shaq, KD, Bron, Wemby, Yao, maybe Duncan, AI and AD. That's the list of generational talents going back to the 90s imo.
Totally agree
P almost slipped and said Shaq has nice feet lol
Daily uploads during finals week is 🔥🔥🔥🔥
Jordan was so legit he has everyone thinking jis career was only 6 years.
😂😂
Only casuals leave it at 6 rings, look at his mvp seasons pre 91, dpoy, roty, 200 steals 100 block seasons
Prime javale mcgee, no one was thinking about the game like he was
well said, wizards hit the lotto drafting him
I think Luka is/ was a generational talent, being a Euroleague MVP and champion and winning the european Championship at 17 is generational, nobody did it before and it's unlikely that one ever will. The way he plays is unique and generational as well. All NBA First Team in every year since His Rookie season.
agreed, we just didnt respect eurobasket at all
I can see that
You didn't watch the video if you think Luka's a generational talent
@@Bdog_45 i watched it, and he's generational in Terms of accomplishments (as I stated) and Playstyle, or Name one player as tall as Luka who plays like him
@@isaacbonga2332 HARDEN
I think a big part of it, especially the mimicry, CAN anyone even come close to copying it.
Steph Curry is incredible, generational, but its possible for a guy to come along that shoots close to that.
Someone like Shaq's playstyle and size is not copyable. You can't dominate in the way Shaq did with practice
but with Steph its a lot more than the shooting, who has ever been able to shoot like him for THAT long while breaking and setting records
and people have been trying to mimic him for years now, they can’t, everybody wants to be Steph but no one has even come close
its possible, but it hasn't happened. and no Dame, Harden etc do not come close.
is it more possible than someone being born with Shaqs genetics? those are also 'possible'
@nevohyams yeah I totally I agree! I think the last sentence I said was more what I meant; "shaq isn't copyable with practice" - I guess arguably? Steph is with practice.
Also I think the time-frame for being like steph is still in the early middle stages!
Kobe was nowhere near generational, it's fine to acknowledge.
Facts
His work ethic made him great but he was far from perfect
Exactly. There’s no way you can call a prospect “generational” and then proceed to have 12 teams pass up on you. Obviously he became one of the greatest, but at the time of his draft, no way was he generational
same with Curry
Can you become generational though
Flagg is a fantastic player and does so many things on the court at a high level but he doesn’t have the scoring ability to be a generational talent or superstar. not saying he can’t develop that but right now as a prospect I wouldn’t say he’s a generational, lock number 1 pick type player.
I feel you bro the kid is really good on defense but I see him as like a scottie Barnes or Evan turner++ as of right now
@@rhythmdavis2620 He’s definitely a better prospect than those fs maybe closer to scottie barnes but a better defender
His defense alone is enough to be labeled a superstar. His scoring ability is still developing but he’s already a fantastic dunker and his shooting will come with time. He is only 17.
Flagg can be a much more polished offensively version of J. Isaac and thats okay since Isaac is a world class defender and if someone like that can have an offensive game then they're a perennial all star
Fans & media have conflated “freak athlete” with “generational talent”.
MJ, KD, Steph, LeBron, Shaq, Magic are all generational talents
Zion, Kyrie, Ja Morant, Ant, even Giannis in my opinion are all examples of freak athletes or extremely skilled players, but aren’t necessarily generational
steph was like the 7th or 9th overall pick
What about Luka?
@ well, the Suns and Kings had the first 2 picks in that draft, I’m pretty sure any competent franchise drafts Luka
Zion is defentiely generational he came in the league and immediately dominated
Zion is not generational. He is like a better Larry Johnson or Shawn Kemp @@onlywiigame.
P been watching Blue Lock. Geniuses and prodigies.
These are facts! Also to add I think instead of throwing the word around so loosely we should acknowledge and give appreciation to the ones we have while we have em. We’ve been blessed. Three truly generational talents (Steph, Bron, and KD) all in the league and competing against each other in their respective primes at the same time! That’s something we may never see again.
@@johnoneal5640 🎯
Can you do a video about sleeper players in college basketball. Like don’t be surprised if these players go late in the first or in the second round. Like Javon Small for wvu. Bro is averaging 19 4 and 4 while shooting 41% from 3. I can see him being drafted late
Crazy pull to see a Javon small mention, went to hs with him I remember we played Westfield and him and Brayden smith at Purdue now we’re duking it out and I knew they’d both go far now they’re both some of the best guards in college ball
saving this for the treadmill
I lied leg day plus running. Nada
Think Luka could be depending on how the rest of his career shakes out.
I gotta shout out my two mavs legends Luka and Dirk for being generational players
🔥 can’t wait for The uploads bro!!
You gotta throw bird in the mix along with magic IMO they both changed the game and meant so much to NBA
I actually agree with all of this
Generational Talents (not players)
1. Zion Williamson
2. Steph Curry
3. Kevin Durant
4. Derrick Rose
5. Dwight Howard
6.Yao Ming
7. Lebron James
8. Vince Carter
9. Shaq
10. Wilt
11. Pistol Pete
12. Kyrie Irving
Those came to mind. Might edit to add others
Can't Believe I Forgot Wemby 😂
Steph, kyrie?
AI, predecessor of kyrie
Oh Zion🤦🏿♂️
Oden was compared to a 7 foot bill Russell coming to the league and was faster than KD at the combine so I’d put him here too
Ben Simmons was literally Magic Johnson becofre he decided to forget to play basketballs
It’s rare that players labeled “generational” BEFORE the draft ever live up to it, not even greats like Kobe and Curry were considered generational when they were coming into the league
True
Curry and Kobe were influential players not generational players
P dropping bangers every time
I see generational as no one will ever be able to mirror what you did on the basketball court not career wise but just as a basketball player in itself which is why I don’t have many players as generational
Zion to me was generational as a talent but injury’s and off the court stuff has brought him down so far
Great video, I see some people point to it but there’s differences between generational talent and generational career. I liked your point defining generational by the likelihood of finding another version of him. What are your thoughts on who will be the most forgotten players/talent? I see players like Damian Lillard (hidden behind Steph) and Kawhi Leonard (lack of health) become forgotten.
Zion had generational talent but he ate it away
In this piece!
Part of this conversation was about how the generational label has changed and used differently. It is time we acknowledge someone can have generational parts of their game. No it doesn’t make someone generational off bat. But someone can be generational through other areas of the game collectively rather then just how they put the ball in the basket. Example Tony Allen is generational. Herb Jones defense is getting up there but there is definitely still a gap.
@@jonathantolbert6554 I don’t think that’s ever been problematic. But very rarely is that the conversation starter. It usually is x is a “generational player”. If someone says this player could be a generational passer or defender I think that changes the entire trajectory of the convo.
Can two things be true at once?
Yes.
Victor=Chet.
Chet=Victor.
I genuinely think that everything that is said about wemby is mirrored to Chet. Time will tell.
I think the terms should be generation (like Jordan lebron talent) and unicorn (shaq,giannis, wemby, stuff that is realistically 1 of 1
young shaq could move too🔥🔥
Giannis is more generational than Jokic because not a single Player has ever played like Giannis for the length that he has and come into the league how he did and accomplish what he's done as a result. Giannis is generational because his handle and ability to drive is only matched by LeBron and Westbrook, but Giannis is 7ft tall and just as athletic as some of the best guards the league has ever seen. His motor is unmatched as well. He would literally play so hard that he would get free throw violations because he needed to catch his breath. That's a generational motor.
Anthony Davis is definitely a generational player. Obviously a lot of us want more from his career but it terms of what he does on the floor it is generational. And that doesn’t mean we won’t see another AD cause that’s not the definition of generational, it’s just that we will only see his type of player once in a generation.
To me you can have multiple generational players in one generation. Jockic and Luka would be my current generational players. I mean luka has gone down this year (28/8/8)💀 but thats also coming off an injury. But yea these 2 players both especially Jokic this year played huge parts in carrying there team especially in current nba where teams are starting to hecome deeper just because the braoder pool of talent and competitiveness.
Gambling is awful
P you’re getting at something I’ve thought about for a while. With the exception of Kobe’s similarity to Jordan, none of the consensus top 15 players of all time (could be 25 or even 30 but there’s much less consensus in that range) plays like anyone who came before them. They all carved out their own unique style of being great
Ehh Bron has a bit of Magic. Curry has some Nash/Reggie. KD has some Iceman. There's like 5 bigs in there who all passed some down to the ones after. Duncan is kind of a mix of Russell and Wilt. Most of the newer guys (Bron and after) are a mix of 2 guys.
@ there’s only so many ways to play basketball so of course players will have similarities, but the broader point is they all have a defining part of their game which is unique to them
Wilt Chamberlain was Shaq before Shaq
Thank you P. I'm am so tired of hearing this generational talent phrase so loosely. LeBron Zion(even if he hasn't lived up to it) jokic and Wemby. Tatum my guy, is a great well rounded talent and Ant man is as well but they aren't generational
Okay let's open this can of worms. You're right, i think the "generational" terms should be reserved only for a set of things we see in one player that we've never seen before him and/or since him BUT i personally will still accept if the time gap is long enough. For example, Joel embiid. Coming out of the draft he's touted as a generational talent as the most skilled big since hakeem. That's still counts both as generational. Because i can't accept a "generational" talent with similar skillset playing in the same timespan. Like jordan and kobe, it's either both are "generational" (which again defeats the purpose of the term) or none of them are "generational". Jokic, and as much as i love him, sengun is on his way to match him. Luka with shai. curry with trae young. KD with tatum.
And all of this is not to discredit any of the players i named, they're all at the pinnacle of basketball and probably will end up in the HOF when all things said and done. But "generational" are as it is named, once every generation
The term generational prospect is probably the most overused in sports. Since the year 2000 I would say there’s only been 4 generational prospects. Lebron, AD, Zion, and Wemby. And 2/4 lived up to the billing, Wemby still in progress, and Zion not living up to that status. And for anyone questioning AD, you just need to go back and watch his College tape lol.
Also, Andrew Wiggins was like borderline generational too. Definitely the best true wing prospect since Lebron.
What about Luka? Only reason he didn’t get the „generational“ title is because he was playing in Europe and mfs didn’t think he was actually like that
@ as big of a Luka fan as I am, I don’t think he was really generational just because of how bad of an athlete he is. Ofc he worked out and turned into a superstar, but it’s not common bad athletes turn out to be as good as him.
@@Matt4pf tbf though we’re talking about someone being a generational TALENT not athlete. But yeah I’d probably agree if we give the word generational its proper meaning Luka wouldn’t be generational cause that literally means there can only be one dude this good in 15-20 years and after bron the next one to deserve that title is probably wemby although the Zion hype was also similar
I don't think Wiggins is that close to generational considering Embiid was seen as the #1 prospect most of the later draft cycle until his injury concerns dropped him. I think if you add anyone to those 4 it'd be Oden
@@Stephen246666 I mean people were literally calling Wiggs “Maple Jordan”😂😂😂
Shaq is definitely a 1 of 1 i believe the Orlando Shaq was the best version of shaq i think wemby is the closest to Kevin Durant because of his skills set especially if he puts ot all together there will never be another Jordan LeBron magic wilt Shaq kd and Jokic is definitely generational ive never seen a center with his passing skills loke ever and the fact that hes probably going to win 3 straight mvps just puts the icing on the cake
Generational in sports means very few or only one type of player to me. But talent, production and potential should be differentiated. Like Curry has generational production, Shaq was a generational talent and MPJ had generational potential🤷🏽♂️
I think the bar for generational is somewhere around Anthony Davis and Larry Bird not to say either is or isn't generational, just they’re the minimal form of what could be generational to me.
Jokic more generational than Giannis, though Giannis himself is generational. Would love to see some sort of vid tier ranking generational players in that way
I think generational has to be broken down into two different categories. You have generational talents and generational players/athletes. With Generational talents these are players that possess a skillset or ability that make them great ie a Curry, Jokic, or Durant. Then you have your generational athletes which are players who may have the ability but possess the athleticism and tools to be great at any facet of any sport ie the Shaq, Jordan, Lebron’s of the world. Both in which are rare in all respective fields. The overuse of the word happens due to people being desperate to find the next great player, and in turns attaches a trait from a prospect to a generational player in hopes everything with grow along the way.
great vid brother. good watch whole way through
Oliver rioux gonna rob wemby of his generational title
Lebron is the only current player i would give it to
The only generational talents for me (in terms of build and playstyle):
- Wilt
- Shaq
- LeBron
- KD
- Wemby
No curry at least. He changed the way every team plays
Not having Kareem is an oversight honestly. At all stages of his career he was considered a once in a lifetime player. Just like MJ, he got labeled the GOAT extremely early on in his career. Wilt and Bill Russell each had their own drawbacks but Kareem did everything you could ever want from a 70s-80s center, and did it at an all time clip. He had a 35ppg season, he had a 17 rebound season, he had multiple 4 block seasons, and won while doing it. This is strictly the NBA too, he's widely considered the greatest thing to ever step foot on an NCAA floor and did it without playing varsity his freshman year.
@@rayrayskillz2118no curry was influential not generational there has been plenty of players similar to curry out there already
I think Zion is a generational talent. As of right now, he hasn’t achieved the expectations set up for him. But looking at Zion as a talent, there has never been a player with his size, weight and athleticism doing what he was doing in college. The big man type dominance with a decent handle and insane speed at that size is unheard of. For him, injuries are unfortunately what’s been taking him out.
Kendall gill is his comp. Def still generational. Haven’t seen a comp like that since Kendall gill
might be subjective but my rule of thumb is if i’d make a 2k eras with them or not. Magic/Bird, Lebron, Curry, Kobe, etc. For me the current era would go to jokic. obviously not fool proof but for me it’s a good rule of thumb.
yes but that's mostly also accomplishments not talent
4:22 so by that logic, lebron and jordan not generational? It’s been multiple players that was compared to and supposed to be the next Jordan or bron
And i also think john havlicek is generational he just gets so overlooked because of the team he was on and the era he played in
Harden is undoubtedly generational.
I promise it’s not bias, but Dirk was generational. Changed the way the big position is played in the NBA and essentially the way we see it played now. Pretty much spearheaded the European movement in the NBA. First European player to win MVP. European bigs with a decent jump shot were compared to him for years. Plenty of them were drafted with the hopes of being Dirk and we still have seen it
Shaq ✅
Steph Curry ✅
Michael Jordan ✅
LeBron James ✅
Kevin Durant ✅
Tim Duncan ✅
Magic Johnson ✅
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar ✅
Hakeem Olajuwon ✅
Nikola Jokic ✅
Victor Wembanyama....he can be but he's only in his 2nd year. To be determined
Here's a name that I think can and should be looked at as generational....Dirk Nowitzki
Does generational talent constitute a successful career bc id argue someone like embiid is a generation talent despite his lack of success and injury history.
Yeah I don’t think so because you can have a generational talent that don’t develop into anything and then there’s curry, luka, jokic, and giannis. Generational talent ≠ successful career. It takes way more
I’d say the same for someone like Anthony Davis also
lebron has been good enough for long enough that we could call him a multi-generational talent.
I'm wondering if anyone will consider the earlier years of Ben Simmons as having a generational tragectory or are there some things that hold it back?
I agree with almost everything you said, but I do pushback on the idea that Zion wasn’t “generational”. To me, Zion was a generational prospect; his athleticism, his defense, his touch around the rim, his dunking ability, his ability to take over a game, his playmaking upside, he had everything but the 3. While we have seen a player exhibit those traits both in the NBA & in college, Zion was a 1 of 1 athlete. Z was probably going to come into the NBA and be a top 3 athlete immediately, that’s rare, that’s generational, and his archetype is incredibly unique outside of Chuck, who was his only real comparison, and they are very very different players. I’m okay with him not being labeled as generational, the rationale behind it makes so much sense, but to me, he was. Incredibly frustrating that injuries have sapped what was supposed to be one of the most electric and emphatic players the game has ever seen
I don’t think cooper flagg is generational but he’s damn close. I think he has a peak of Kawhi trajectory( without the injury)
I think its a fun conversation when its more granular and people aren’t labeled as just generational talents or players as a whole.
Kobe wasn’t a generational talent, but I think giving him a generational work ethic title would be fair. Iverson and/or Kyrie gotta be considered generational dribblers. I don’t think Zion was ever a generational talent, but back in his peak he was absolutely a generational athlete. If the lens is just generational overall talent and skill, it’s just the top 10 list.
@@scopezzbro2458 to me that’s the an incredible like sub category to have outside of the generation players list. Because Kobe work ethic should be championed.
Zion was definitely generational we rarely see power forwards just come in and dominate
If Chris Paul or Westbrook level of players are considered generational talents then you should have that type of expectation for a first overall pick
I agree with most of the players you deemed generational except Duncan, we can’t really call him generational when there is a KG in the same generation as him. Sure he is no where near the passer Tim is, but the rest of their game is very similar.
@@jeremybeauregard7684 not mad at this. In my notes Duncan has a “???” With an arrow pointing towards KG. He’s tough because I clearly agree with you but there’s apart of me that thinks he’s not galaxies away from Kg but there’s a gap. But this convo makes me think is that from player to player talent to talent or situation to situation. KG was dealt a tough hand in Minny. Thank you for the comment 🫡
Would you put John Stockton or Allen Iverson as generational? PGs still haven't come close to John Stockton's passing/steals records and Allen Iverson set the standard for slashing PGs. Not sure we've really seen either of them since
It depends on the definition of ‘generational’. For some it means ‘once in a generation’ and for others it means ‘defined a generation’. The 2000s were defined by Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, LeBron and to a lesser extent AI, Garnett, Dirk, D Wade. Depending on your definition all of them could be generational or only 1 or 2
It also depends on if you're talking talent or accomplishments or even impact. Generational talent is completely different than the others. Yao for example made little impact on the US fandom but his talent was undeniable.
@@tonyschimmoeller agreed. AI is another guy who just judging by stats and accomplishments could be considered ‘just’ a great player, but his unique skills and cultural impact cast a larger shadow
Does living up to the expectations matter in being a generational prospect? Zion as a prospect coming out of Duke did seem generational because his athleticism at his sized was ridiculous.
Zion being injured has nothing to do with him not being generational, Zion is for sure a generational player he’s averaging 24 for his career most players have never done that his early in their careers
Amen Thompson will be Draymond on steroids i say he "will be generational"
Disagree about the Jordan/Kobe thing mostly because Kobe played more like 2nd 3peat Jordan but he didn’t really mimic or resemble the late 80s/ 1st 3peat Jordan when he was at his best. Idk that we’ve seen something approaching that, closest thing would be idk early D Wade but even that is maybe not quite
Yall under estimate GENERATIONAL , LeBron , Curry , Shaq , Magic , Jokic Maybe , Penny Generational if he Kept his Health
I’d add d rose, ja, and Giannis but agreed
Ben Simmons IS generational
I think Giannis is more generational than Jokic
Cause we have guys like Alperen Sengun and domantas Sabonis who are kinda like lower level players that can mimic what Jokic does there’s no one really who can mimic Giannis even at a lower level
The concept of generational should only apply to guys leading up to the draft. For as great as Steph Curry is, he was far from a generational prospect. Same with Kobe. It’s too easy to retroactively look back and call all time greats generational.
Vitaly Potapenko is a generational player
Speaking to this, in a non disrespectful way, Luka might fall in the Kobe camp because of Harden being so close
Feel like we’re mixing up generational and transcendent here. If Mike was generational and Kobe was the next generations Mike then he was absolutely generational there was no other wing as dynamic on both sides of the ball with his fundamentals skills and athleticism while Steph is a transcendent talent he changed and influenced the game but the existence of dame and Trae in his era makes him not generational.
Lamelo is generational 🤷🏿♂️🤷🏿♂️🤷🏿♂️
The only absolute generational talents in the nba is Bron, Jokic, Curry. Shoutout giannis KD Luka tho
Luka is already generational
i mean, luka is literally a modern magic, even better..
Not a one to one but a bit similar. I think he's a different build of player just off the fact that he has so many more facets in his game which is why I probably won't say he is a modern magic.
I don’t know if guys r just obsessed with muscle or in the closet. But skill level can be generational and basketball iq can too. Jordan was generational period don’t over think it. Steph too
@@CharlieHaggis someone said Jordan or Curry wasn’t generational?
I would say there’s abt 3-5players every decade that can be considered generational…. For example, 2020s - Luka joel Giannas wemby jokic and maybe a super young player like Paolo or ant can get there and 2010s is curry Durant bron Westbrook harden and kawhi maybe…. Smb like Tatum, and smb like Dwayne wade or Chris Paul have to many predecessors that are like them which is why i said maybe to ant and didn’t even mention Tatum
The argument you can make for Cooper on why he might be generational is because of the fact that he reclassified. When was the last college player that was as good as him that skipped his senior year and went directly into the NCAA?
That’s pretty common tbh, a lot of nba players have done that his early
@@onlywiigame. Not too many players in recent years have done it and still remained top draft picks. Only players that come to mind are guys like Wiggins and KAT. It's pretty rare to skip a whole grade and still dominate college ball
and lets not forget wiggins was supposed to be the "next lebron james" lol
There are 3 generational players in the league rn imo: LeBron, jokic, Vic
I gotta disagree because everytime P drops a video it’s generational
Detlef Schrempf is a generational player
Wemby
Lebron
steph
Hakeem
jordan
shaq
kobe is generational he dropped 81 points in a game lets be fr
Iverson should be here 6’0 averaged 30
P love ur vids and input, I gotta hard disagree w this one man. U just basically named the top 15 players of all time and called only them generational except Kobe and Wemby. I agree 1 of 1s are generational, but I think that's a term that should be used for more players than just the top 15 oat. I think Zion was 100% a generational talent. Also, ur only looking at players that acc panned out, which I think is unfair. Generational talent is not a hindsight award to give out; it's something u do during the scouting process. I don't think Jokic was a generational talent, because he wasn't like that during draft time. Ofc he's a top 15 oat and generational player, but there's a huge difference between talent and player imo. For example I think Yao was a generational talent, but curry wasn't
Cooper isn’t a generational talent. If you’re a team; if you’re picking Cooper your picking him because of his defensive floor not his offensive ceiling
There's generational talent and generational players
The 2-peat?
@@TK.CrownMe I always say 2 peat cuz they went 3 times in a row but couldn’t get all 3😭
Do you have to be 1A in the draft coming into the NBA to be generational because certain players have developed into generational but weren’t looked at so such as curry and kobe. I think worth ethic, perfect situation and good development has to be on ur side to become generational
That’s a interesting thought. I do believe all generational talents in this conversation context of best of best. Yes You have to be a 1A. But, there are generational role players. Tony Allen, klay, draymond, Robert horry, Dennis Rodman etc..
I think the closest player to shaq we've ever seen is probably Giannis but they really aren't that crazy similar
Yeah generational to me means that player has a chance to be top 10-15 ever
Man i looked at zion as that maybe i dont know ball
Respectfully I think your problem with the word stems from the draft conversation not the aftermath of a career. And in that sense I’d say though KD, Giannis, and Jokic I think are great examples of a type of game a way of dominance we probably will never see again and with go down as generational players they weren’t stamped with that tag coming in. The emphasis when coming in is more similar to your Wemby take this guy has the potential, this guy has the tools etc. which obviously I agree with. So I think when calling a prospect generational not only is it an individual tag you put on the player as a scout/analyst but EVERYONE thought Zion would be and he had the tools to be shoot if he somehow got past the injuries and stayed on the court he probably still could be, is it likely anymore? No, but that’s why when viewing a players career after it’s over or over a decade in like Jokić and Giannis is so different that trying to be right on who that next guy definitely is. Same thing could be said for Curry as I said for KD, Giannis and Jokic. My point here is the differentiation on when the word is used is major, and as it does go for draft prospects I do agree it is used too much, but you ca change the tag you put on the player at the time just because they didn’t pan out that way, it’s better to say they had the tools to be generational they were a generation talent at the time, but if Vic wasn’t doing what he is doing we couldn’t just change the fact he was the most hyped since LeBron coming into the league. Idk I think heinsight adds a lot to the conversation obviously but what was said is typically an indication of how the general community felt or a specific person felt about a prospect.
Now as it goes for the Kobe point. I see your point as he did overlap with Jordan and Lebron, even succes Mike still won after he entered the league and Lebron made the finals before Kobe was done winning. But I think from a career analysis standpoint on the term “generational” it means the type of player who we will probably never see again including what they accomplished and how they did it. That being said if Jordan is then Kobe is too it just so happens that somehow a near replica of the greatest player of all time played at the same time as him. For instance if Kobe just entered the league today and was a rookie and went down the same career path (obviously not possible but it’s a hypothetical so stay with me) we would view him as generational, we would say the same things such as “the second coming of Jordan” I think the way Kobe actually separates himself to be different is their mindset/work ethic (to be clear they both along with and player that accomplishes that much are on another level from any other player) it’s the difference between the Mamba Mentality of I will outwork myself before you outwork me that seeming inhuman will to be better (Kobe) vs the I just am better I put the work in, I am am better and you say otherwise I’ll show you I am (Jordan) that difference though similar is what allowed Kobe to be the next Jordan and I don’t think that will, that desire and that success in doing exactly what he planned to do will be match so in my opinion they are both “generation players”.
My list would probably be slightly longer than yours too the same point though I might have players you don’t and you might have players I don’t neither takes away from their greatness it is just a different categorization of them and my list would also be split into two lists “generational players” players who I without a doubt look back on and view as generational and “generational talents” players who had all the tools to do it and were viewed as so prior to their career. There would be some overlap but I think if we looked back a lot of the guys who did become generational were never viewed as so coming in and a lot of the guys who were supposed to never ended up being so.
Anyways great video it’s been a minute since I caught a vid of yours but keep up the great work on your solo channel and on the pod TTW/NOTB has been my favorite basketball pod for years and though I haven’t watched yall as much recently keep up the good work anytime I tune in I know it’ll be the best basketball discourse I hear all week.
would yall consider Harden generational?