Thanks for letting me join this trip. great time! The steepness is no joke. I also have the scan gauge 3 that REALLY made me feel comfortable throughout the whole climb.
Thank you for all the insights. Just got myself a 2025 Honda Pilot Trailsport for light off-road trails. Mainly national parks with the wife and two small dogs. Our goal is to visit all the US and Canadian national parks. I pick the Pilot for its "off-road" capabilities but the main reason is the room it has. When all the seats are down and with a good mattress, we can sleep comfortably in it. Edit: On a side note. I took a chance on a Lost Horizon air mattress made for the Toyota Tacoma with the 6 foot bed and it pays off. Other than flipping it front to rear, it looks and feels like it was custom made for the Pilot.
What’s funny is most of these passes were all created by pioneers with wagons and oxen, pulling them. My grandfather used to drive his model A Ford over those passes and they would have to drag trees behind them as a drag brakes to slow down, coming down the other side., he grew up in Utah.
Let’s preserve these trails as well!!! The community needs to stick together, denounce bad behavior not our vehicle choice. Encourage access to the outdoors for people that aren’t able to hike 😊
I've been really impressed so far my by Forester wilderness, as much as i want to get a proper 4x4, I just end up really liking the comfort and capabilities. Only ever really had one issue myself, and that was a rutted out steep section in a tight turn where i crossed up my axles, but it made it up unassisted after giving it the beans for a few seconds with the front swaybar connected, no rear sway and xmode 1, had zero issues the second time in xmode 2 with no rear sway and the front disconnected. Not only that, but the hottest I've ever seen my CVT gets about 215. In comparison, an equally modified Forester sport with a larger transmission cooler on that same trail had to be pulled up via a winch, and pulled up the remainder of the incline by a land cruiser, with his CVT getting above 240. And to add on about the closures, here in NC, we're having a lot of trails get shut down, and it's not cause of AWDs, but idiots in 4x4s tearing up the trails.
Thanks for chiming in Dalton. I’ve been working on this video for the past 5 days now, and not sure if anyone noticed, but I just got fed up and abruptly ended the video right before the rock garden section. At 31:39, in the wall of text, I mention that a guy in a Forester Wilderness @wildbthis drove up in his Forester wilderness with coil over lift. The fact that a SJ Forester stalled out on the trail and couldn’t continue and his FW made it up lines up perfectly with the story you’re telling. I was just done with editing this video, and it was already 30+ minutes in length. Atleast I was able to point out that Lee’s 20 year Outback made it up though! Thanks for sharing the story about your closures down there. Large tires + ripping through a trail is going to leave a much bigger impact than an open diff AWD on 27 inch tires 😂. The reason for hate is in ALOT of cases fabricated 😂
Btw, I’m working 6 days straight and would try to get an hour of editing after work, but would eat dinner and pass out. Last night I stayed up until 2am to abruptly finish it off.
I've done cinnamon pass in a manual 2.5 forester. The one thing I missed dearly was a low range transfer case. There is just no getting around the gearing when it gets steep. You can use momentum but doing so massively increases the risk for damage or error. If only such a transfer case was still available. What I believe prompted the concern about AWD on these trails is the marketing of AWD systems as 4WD equivalent and their proliferation. The average consumer doesn't have the technical background to judge the merits of a Subaru AWD, vs Honda AWD, vs Toyota AWD, vs Toyota 4wd. Many of these are clutch based systems or use CVTs which depend on friction. Friction generates heat which degrades performance, as compared to a locked mechanical transfer case that is staticly engaged. Electronic systems that modulate black box terrain modes don't increase capability in so much as they make is accessible to non trained drivers. The inherent risk then becomes the driver navigates to the limit of their capability with no reserve for the unforeseen. I've seen folks getting themselves into bad situations because their vehicle got them there but couldn't get them out. Another overlooked aspect is the vehicle structure apart from drivetrain. A solid axle, body on frame SUV or truck will be more tolrant of abuse and damage than an AWD crossover. Dent a rocker panel of a CUV and you've compromised the structure of the vehicle, vs a BoF vehicle that may sustain costly damage but won't be structurally compromised. The additional provisions to be capable of mounting heavy off road tires (with a full size spare), winches and recovery points mean that getting out of a bad situation is more likely. Compare the tow hooks on a jeep to a subaru and there is no comparison, the subaru is not a safe or easy to pull out of ditch. The fact that an AWD vehicle suffers failed CV axles from a lift should be sufficient forewarning of the beyond design stress it's being subjected to.
@@JB-ss3bv well said. I’ve mentioned all this through out my videos. It’s also coincidence you mention cinnamon pass, a Subaru, and low range. In July, we took a Subaru Forester 2.5 with a dual range manual up cinnamon pass all the way to Ouray.
That's wild. I've been off-roading/overlanding my 2008 Toyota FJ for nearly 16 years and love it! Been looking at other options these past few years but cannot part with the FJ. Nice video.
@@gwilliams3079 admittedly (I made other videos about this), I never took the FJ cruiser off-road. I would just pop it into 4Hi to drive up to the local ski resort. I probably would have appreciated it little more if I put the factory rear locker to use. The initial responsiveness off the line was nice, but my main gripes were the steering dead zone and I just didn’t feel confident in it driving at high speeds. I also drove a 2008 (TRD (sticker package)). It was explained to me that this was before dual VVTI and that’s why it wasn’t as fuel efficient as the updated model. Also, the small gas tank had me filling up often. The front seats were Cabernets, but felt bad for anyone that had to sit behind me, haha! The FJ does have ALOT of character though! It’s a collectors item. You’re sitting on a gold mine.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring 100% on the small gas tank. Lucky to get 220 miles on a full tank. You make a good point as it's never been my daily driver, more of a purpose-built weekend warrior rig. Not being able to fit in parking garages and constant fill-ups would get old. Still get compliments on it and weird looks from friends/family when I talk about selling it for something new. Dig your videos.
I've explored in my outback xt, and you know all about both jeeps we've had, but I have experience and perspective from both sides , so I tend to give awds the benefit of the doubt cuz I like them. But I also feel I have a realistic expectation of what's appropriate for each. The bottom line is it is the responsibility of every driver, AWD or 4wd to know accurately how to drive and what their vehicles proper capabilities are, and try to operate within that, responsibly. If we all did this, I think this problem would solve itself. That said we just did poison springs in canyonlands recently, and it was rated as a 3, which should be fine, but we were the first people through after a recent significant washout, and it changed it to a solid 5-6 with spots of actual rock crawling. So just cuz a rating says a number, it's still smart to go into it a bit overbuilt, cuz trail conditions change and you don't want to be barely capable enough. Especially if you're out exploring. Good stuff jon!
@@seanwatson3790 WELL SAID SEAN!!! 👏 I try to do a good job at what you just mentioned. I think I’ve done a fairly decent job at “adventuring within my vehicles limits”. Bill Moore lake was a good one! Level 4 with many people thinking it was harder! That was a crazy experience!
Let's not forget that part of NPS/BLM/USFS's motivation for the closures in Utah (and other locations) are due to irresponsible users driving off trail or on non-motorized trails. These users are giving responsible off-roaders a bad name and threatening access to these roads and trails.
Let's also not forget that people have needed to be rescued because they took incapable AWDs places they should never have attempted. Yes, probably due to inexperience and marketing shenanigans, but the point remains that the vehicles are simply not nearly as capable as other choices.
@@VideosOffRoad that’s not the reason for shutting down Grand Escalante. If you’ve been out there then you’ll see evidence everywhere of illegal off-roading.
@@VideosOffRoad my first trip out there, a friend had this insatiable urge to start ripping around off the trail. Maybe it’s because the whole place looks like a giant off-road park and there were so many illegal **tracks** he thought it was okay? However, the roads are clearly marked, he was in a very common and capable full time 4WD vehicle. We radioed in with our disappointment and told him to get back on trail asap… then he got stuck, making it even worse. Now a very well known capable rig had to go out and winch him out. Honestly, an AWD won’t have the capability to romp around off-trail like that, but yeah, to answer your question, it appears the SxS will be the biggest culprit. There’s tracks on near vertical walls that only a Polaris Turbo can put down. There’s SxS rentals around the area too.
Nice video! Makes me want to get out there and drive. I drive a 2” lifted 2017 Cherokee Trailhawk. The lift allows for bigger tires in my instance going from 29.5” to 31.1” making my total lift around 2.8” with around 10” real world clearance at my oil pan skid plate (winch brought it down to that). And 14” at my rock rails. There are lots of constraints due to the design and you can’t go much taller or bigger without problems.
@@charbvin yeah, and while modified from the start. I had a 2” lift and 2.5” taller tires at 8K miles and a 3.5” lift at 52K miles. The 4.75” lift and 3” taller tires was pretty recent but a good 8K.
This road might lead to Costco ❓ I owned a Subaru 1985 GL 10 wagon 5 spd manual transmission .Actually had real 4wd hi and low transfercase .with actual neutral on the transfercase . People have forgotten about these! Not sure what the crawler ratio was. But somewhere around 40 to 1. Redline in first gear was 4wd low was about 6 mph. We definitely have a serious problem on our hands. With all the restrictions headed our way, and roads are closing down. If we give them an inch, they will take a mile.
I also had a 87 GL10 wagon manual. Was awesome. Low range wasn't super low, I actually used it on the road at times, when loaded down and climbing super steep hills. It topped out around 45mph unlike my XJ which would only do 25 ish in low range. Very impressive off road rig carefully driven. I kinda miss it (and 34MPG)..
@@ta1entscout I would use 0 to 60 and 4 low then high of course I was a high school kid so I would red line shift it!😅😂! I also owned two XJ manual transmissions. One two-door and a four-door. I did own a four wheel drive high model loyal! And a 1986 gl 10 wagon turbo stick shift. I got 35 MPGs on the turbo highway. 30 plus City. Actually have a lot of pick up with the turbo I did a downpipe and a front mount intercooler. Probably picked up 20 to 30 horsepower. It's scooted!
I'm the opposite. We have had an 08 Mazda CX9 and liked it; then we got a 17 f150 on Bilstein 6112/5160 and 35s for a few years now and enjoyed it better for travel. It is on the big side for trails, but if it fits, it ships.
Midsized trucks aren’t nearly as comfortable as half tons. I’m sure I’d be happy with the comfort of an F150 as well, but after the CVT melted in my Subaru, the only brands I was open to was Toyota and Honda because of reliability. The Hondas hasn’t let me down, despite all the modifications thrown at it. I even found needle nose pliers jammed into my accessory belt. Still runs like a champ. We test drove the brand new Tacoma, and it handles well. It’s a night and day difference compared to the 3rd gen Tacoma. Handles more like the lifted Honda.
I have those shocks on my 2019 Tacoma. They're fantastic on and offroad shocks. I mean I do sometimes get curious about the more expensive Fox and Kings but those are a smart, sensible purchase.
Responsible/respectable use of our public lands needs to be practiced by everyone. Leaving trash and body waste or driving off trail will shut down any area. As far as radiators go, misting systems have been around a long time. My father used one on his 66 Dodge Monico station wagon powered by a 383. That hunk of iron would get hot pulling a trailer up hills. He had a 5-gallon tank in the rear sitting well with a small electric pump that sent water to mister. He also had to put asbestos heat wrap on the fuel line to prevent vapor lock. Those were the days.
Yeah idk man, stopping, trying to figure out how to cool my rig……I couldn’t do it. I’d probably just by a 4Runner, but do you man. Great video I saw a video of a Subaru do Black Bear Pass a couple of weeks ago that was sick! It was a forester wilderness.
That’s Matthew Heiskill. We drove up Imogene Pass together back when he had his SK Forester. Out of 4 CVT equipped Subarus, he did the best with his light build and skills to pay the bills. The way that guy flies a drone and drives is high level, so I wouldn’t expect others to have the same result as him.
Always a great video! You definitely want a puller fan on a cooler like the stock one vs a pusher. The pusher will just block flow all the time, but will be really bad unless you have a ton of air pressure and flow like you would get at high speed.
@@owequitit thanks! I reinstalled the lower front bumper. I think it’ll help better route airflow at the slower speeds and improve aerodynamics for higher speeds. I cut the front bumper at the beginning of vehicle ownership when I didn’t even have a lift kit. Now that total front bumper clearance has gone up over 6” from lift and tires, there’s just no need for a cut front bumper. Also, I forgot to mention that after this trip in this video, I had a super charger cooler installed as a transmission cooler. I guess it works so good that my engine coolant is what overheats now? That was the main reason for installing the lower rear bumper.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I knew you installed the supercooler, but figured it might be beneficial for anyone trying to run a fan on the stock cooler. Keep the videos coming!
@@owequitit absolutely! I’m still trying to fine tune the cooler setup. There were a lot of issues with loose hose clamps during the Colorado trip that followed this trip in this video. In the back of my head, a strong puller fan setup sounds so much more reliable and carefree, It’s still on the table. Also, I rewatched my old video to compare how temps were in the past. It was a BIG difference!! I’d really like to get my Honda on a diet. The Wife insists on us keeping the RTT though.
I use a Y splitter hose to a windshield washer and route the sprayer similar to the Subaru. This way, I won’t need a separate reservoir and use the same control to trigger the sprayer.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I see, yes you can re-route it like that and use it to feed the sprayer. I found many yt examples and many rv owners uses the same especially when they’re climbing mountain passes.
I was going ti spend all that money too. On my bronco sport badlands, which I liked a lot. But just decided to take that money and bought wrangler. Now I dont have to worry about any of that.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring For the first time ever you could have equity in your vehicle. When I got into that baby bronco a year back is because I got 16k on a car I owed 8k on. And after a year I owed 22k on the bronco. They gave me 26k. So theres 2 sides to that problem. With all your modifications that may be a problem though. Or maybe not.
@@mikefranklin70 I have 160K on the Odometer (175k+ driven, but they don’t know that 😂), KBB says my car would be worth like $9K because of all the miles
John, since you used to be in the Subaru community, you should get somebody to swap in the drivetrain from the conventional transmission Subaru Forrester into an SVX, that would make one hell of an overland rig.
Park Staff/IFW cant be experts in upgrades. TFL was talking about OEM so a Park Ranger could look up a list and OK you without having to understand lifts kits or regearing, etc. Your Subbie is a 1%r. But. I did pick up a BSBadlands for the reasons you explained. I LOVE driving it as a DD AND already used it to climb blueberry barrens and such.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Not knowingly. Hehe. I think that is in California. Where my Grandfather lived but not much contact with that side of family. I live in Maine.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring have link to video? We have wood, mud, and slick rock. But we'll probably do the MOAB Bronco Rodeo to experience that ledge climbing type of off roading.
Man, I wonder if a Forester Wilderness would fair better than the SJ. I love TFL but I wish they actually had a restored relationship with Subaru so they wouldn’t be so biased against them 😕 I’m sure they’ve got valid reasons but I’d love for them to work with wilderness trims
TFL has made multiple attempts to restore the relationship, but unfortunately, Subaru has been unresponsive. TFL refrained from giving their opinion about Subaru making it on their list.
Forester Wilderness still struggles once a wheel comes off the ground without the aftermarket rear aussie locker. That extra gearing only covers the increased tire size.
@@JonDZ_Adventuringawe I missed that! 😂 thanks for including it! I’ve been watching Matthew H. tackle some crazy stuff in FW. He is obviously a very skilled driver but he swears by the Wilderness Foz. (and because my wife won’t let me trade mine for a 4Runner or a true 4x4, it gives me hope that I can do some moderate trails and camp out🤘🏻)
@@sfshiloI can't say I've had that issue myself getting a wheel off the ground. Only time I had an issue was a steep rutted out incline in a sharp turn where I crossed up my axles. Gave it the beans and it figured things out after about 10 seconds. Had zero issues doing that spot the next time in x-mode 2.
Not into overlanding but my 2021 Passport Touring in stock form with a set of Wildpeaks AT Trail has served me well in winter in deep ish snow to and from the ski resorts and that's pretty good to me. Is it me or that little fan you put in was put in backwards so it's sucking air out instead of blowing in. If it's sucking out, you are fighting against the fans and causing cooling issues.
@@jasonsong86 fan was pushing into the cooler. I ran it like that in August 2023 when I took some Subies up Imogene Pass. Temps hit no higher than 218F. Well, at this point with 175k miles, I’ll be swapping in a new Alternator, which involves moving the radiator, so we will be swapping in a new radiator and alternator while we are at it. Going to do all this tomorrow actually.
My work has me off-roading old mine roads after driving from WY to CA. I sincerely wish that all roads were as good as that! I was out there in CA this June powering through drifts in the high sierras and a lot more. What's the best rig to drive 1k miles and sleep out of for a month off road? I use a 3rd gen 4Runner for IFS and skinny long lifted cargo space I can sleep in.
@@TRyan3 and don’t forget to use chains! The difference was unbelievable. I have a video of driving through 3 feet of snow in the eastern sierras, and much of the success was using chains.
Watch the popular recovery channels. It’s always FWD, trucks, and SxS’s, getting stuck. The nut behind the wheel is the most important factor in any vehicle.
I own a 21 Ridgeline. Great vehicle overall, but I am very surprised the Ridgeline is included on TFL's list of OK vehicles. While the I-VTM-4 is great, I would not have the nerve to do trails like this due to the pitiful clearance and angles. Plus, unlike the Trail Sport Pilot, I can't tell that the newer Trail Sport Ridgelines are significantly improved in these areas. They do have one small skid plate under the oil pan, and probably tougher AT tires. But the clearance and angles are still bad.
8" clearance on Trailhawk? I have 11" in my Rav4... (not stock) I suppose I could do the same mods and get a Trailhawk up to 11-12" as well. I've made it up places where I've seen lifted 90's Jeep Cherokees, and stock 4-runners have bailed and turn around, so I would definitely put the Rav4 on the list. Mt Blanca Rd up to 10,800 where the crawling becomes a level 7 or 8 (that was the end of the road for me), Mt Antero to the top of the road at 13K, Imogene Pass... I wonder if Toyota's run hotter naturally, because my trans temp will sit around 212 just driving around town. I also like how they passed several pull offs while repeatedly mentioning "Next pull off" - maybe they were just searching for a large enough pull off for the whole group, not just one car. Sand Dunes- Medano Pass, level 3 or 4... I've been up it many times in the Rav4, and a Ranger gave us a bunch of crap the last time... and THEN I noticed the change in the trail sign! I'm bummed, but I will just drive around and approach from Huerfano county instead. I agree- division = Doom! That's how they want it though, divide and conquer!
Even though I can't go to some of the place you go I love driving my 2015 Forester, but it's get to the point I am starting to look for another car. I'm at 170,000. 😢😊
@@suzettecalleja3122 I’m finding there’s so much more to adventure than just driving far distances to continue to drive on an off-road trail 🤣, and then drive a long distance home. It gets so old. Loving my new perspective on outdoor adventure. Right after this trip up here, I hiked Half Dome 2 days after.
I have followed the TFL-Subaru saga for a while now, and basically they called out Subaru for overpromising and under delivering on capability (after the vehicle was damaged in one of their standard tests), which ultimately puts customers into potentially dangerous situations, and Subaru got butthurt and won’t lend them vehicles anymore. Too bad but tells me all I need to know about the brand.
@@MichaelSimmons-ee4ib I’ve been following it as well. I actually owned a Subaru when all the drama happened, and I was finding out that my CVT equipped 2015 FXT wasn’t up to the task. My friends with the automatic Subarus (4EAT and 5EAT) were doing so much better, and when the CVT melted (with no warning lights) at 62K, I traded that thing in. I was watching their Golf Mine hill tests, and I was in disbelief that of the few AWDs that made it up, Honda iVTM4 was one of them. I expected the Jeep trailhawk AWDs to make it, but not Honda. Then I did more research and found out they use the same transmission, the ZF9 (which had a dramatic beginning itself), which was a big part of capability. Fast forward almost a decade later and we’ve all become familiar with the shortcomings of the CVT. This video right here proves it. What I also wanted to talk about is that a guy with a Forester Wilderness was able to drive up this trail, which would also show that Subaru has a CVT vehicle that is capable of driving up. At the end of the video, I mentioned it in text.
These closures are a possibility because people are destroying the trails. It's just not coming up for no reason. I recall a Coyote Flats video where Trail Recon arrived at one of their camp sites.. as they briefly showed the site you could clearly see trash and camp chair or tarp and other stuff left behind by another party.
@@jcberb I ended this video early. It was 30 minutes and I just left my final thoughts and cut it off right before the good part, the Rock garden and the Lake. I guess I should make another video and continued where I left off. The title will be “bags of Sh*t left at campsite, baking in the sun”. Yep, this really happened. My friend Lee picked up the sh*t bags, and I packed them out in my trasharoo. There’s a lot of reasons for trail closures, Mother Nature is probably the biggest culprit, snow and mud will close a trail down for sure. Next is the illegal off-roading and driving off trail.
I dunno my 19 Rav4 LE hangs with the tacos and 4runners here on the east coast just fine. Granted our worst terrain is tucked away in offroad parks. Also I am on TRD Springs with a 2 inch lift with 11 inches of center clearance and 15 of rocker.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring West might as well be another planet lol last trail I was on has its steep climbs but our mountains are so old and worn they don't last very long lol things are so old they don't even have fossilized land animals in them. Want to do a trip out west soon. I'm thinking Arizona.
@GotterAdventure so, after 5.5 years, I’ve discovered that the ZF9 doesn’t always drop into 1st gear steep trails. Make sure to go into “Sequential mode” and manual 1st gear to lock it in.
@@GotterAdventure I found this out because my new Scan Gauge 3 can show what gear the Honda is in. I noticed that it tends to just stay in 2nd gear, even when climbing. Only on something very very steep and challenging, does it drop into 1st. So, 1st truly is the low range in the Honda.
the problem with NPS “rules “ on traveling 4x4 high clearance trails is they are generic for factory equipment vehicles. They will not address modified vehicles because they come in all types of configurations. Too hard to enforce; easier to just hand out fines and scare AWD’s and enjoyed by some 4x4 owners. BTW, I have a Porsche Cayenne Diesel with 2” lift, 32” BFG KO2’s, complete underbody protection and rock rails, added recovery points front and rear. This vehicle has a transfer case with low offroad range. Never had a problem going where the Jeep JK’s and Gladiator’s go. And yet due to this now publicized NPS “rule” I have been kicked out of the overland club for my safety. Ha Ha!
Most of it's about whether you have low range and not whether you have all wheel drive. And I know you said most all-wheel drive. My Cherokee trailhawk has arguably all wheel drive if you want to get technical about it but it also has low range and a rear locker and would probably beat some older Open open four-wheel drive (center lock) vehicles. But then the electric vehicles are awd with no low range but no issues usually. So what are we really talking about here? We're talking about wheel torque.
I assume it’s the National Park Service lawyers putting up the signs. So they’re not responsible for anything that happens to a AWD. Next step will be closing to all vehicles.
@@RandomGuy-qm3mg the trails closures are mostly due to disrespect to the land, most likely done by the more capable vehicles that can drive anywhere they want. They’re not staying on trail.
I could see this coming from Sierra club types....we need to form an off road club with a team of lawyers and will require annual dues to keep these trails open....IE..lobbyist to work in washington. By the way many of these cars getting stuck are rentals that have no experience and need to be recovered.
What's the elevation of this area? How much power loss are you dealing with? Was everybody in your crew driving a vehicle with a naturally aspirated engine?
@@uncalm trial starts at 4300 ft. And climbs to as high as 10,400 ft. Every 1000 ft there’s a 3% loss in power and torque, but in 4Lo or aggressive gearing, it’s not really noticeable in a naturally aspirated engine. I’ve driven up Imogene Pass at 13,100 ft, and the Honda in first gear feels like it’s at sea level.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Nice, makes sense, thanks for the explanation. Seems like it would mostly affect naturally aspirated vehicles with taller gearing then, or vehicles that just don't have a lot of torque to begin with. I appreciated the video and the honest discussion!
@@williamhibbard1535 no, and this was proved during our Colorado trip with Ian from @nolodesigns. His Ridgeline is very light and we were able to compare it to another Ridgeline with a bed rack and roof top tent. Their transmission temps were very different. Those episodes will be coming up next, I have a lot of catch up to do
@@jamesjoung2793 not in a manual, but keeping tabs on coolant temps will be a good idea. Unfortunately, there’s no way to indicate when the clutch is going to be fried. There’s a TH-cam video of a Crosstrek manual that tried to drive up this trail and his clutch burned out. He had to get towed up.
THIS is one of the main reasons why I drive a vehicle with a low range transfer case. No overheating concerns either. Goes anywhere. If comfort and daily driving is the priority, "DENIED" shouldn't be a surprise. But at least you'll have a comfortable ride coming back down the trail and going home with your tail between your legs. 😉. Good info here for those with AWDs, though, especially about the Scangauge.
@@VideosOffRoad that’s not true, overheating happens with 4WDs as well, seen it so many times. That’s why a Scangauge (or equivalent) is so important, and if you don’t have one, you might be overheating without knowing about it. Honestly, if I didn’t pull over when the transmission was at 235F (because I wasn’t monitoring temps) the warning light would never come on because it won’t pop up until 270F, but we both know that’s a dangerous temp that has probably caused damage. I’ve had a couple of friends get their 4Runners up to 235F as well in 4Lo on this trail, and I have a friend that was hitting 245F in his 4Runner just driving on a steep highway. Gear hunting was most likely the culprit. A Jeep JK friend had his transmission overheating in 4Lo, probably due to some internal issue. I rewatched my old video of my last trip on this trail and temps were much lower. This was before the roof top tent.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring wait, if AWD center and rear differentials don't overheat, then some people with 4wd and transfer cases can't feel smug and superior. Doesn't that bother you?
@@DaciaProjectdrove like a brick. Steering dead zone. Slow. Guzzled gas. It also had a small interior in comparison. Just too much compromise to drive off-road a level or two better. I’d say the Passport is 5 levels higher as a daily driver / road tripper.
I can't imagine unless it has better angles and clearance than my 21(whatever the model is just below Black). Even the newer Trailsport does not significantly improve clearance or angles. But, if you or your spotter is skilled enough at picking the correct line, maybe even my Ridgeline could make it.
@@Rosh___ sorry, I intentionally did not mention the trail because I didn’t want people to take this video as a “challenge”. My intent is to help educate and help people “adventure within their limits”, but the answers to your question “may” 😉 be tucked away in the video description.
Well, this place in no secret location. Coyote Flats, / Funnel Lakes have been well known destinations for decades.. I was first in the Flats in 1984 when Boeing and the Army were doing high altitude certifications for the big helos. (CH-47's and CH-53's) at the "airfield" up there. In fact, when I made that first trek up there, I did it in a 2WD Chevy 1500 with zero lift and no armor and had zero issues. Unfortunately, the trail was shut down most of last year due to trail repairs that needed to take place due to rains and the horrific ruts the side-by-sides were (are) causing... Look at the Laurel Lakes trail to see some really bad road/rut conditions that have been caused by these riders.
@@tomhenderson7972 well, in this case, the vehicle was the limiting factor. As mentioned, the guy was driving on a non technical steep trail. While floored, his speedometer slowly dropped to 0 mph. The engine was revving, but no wheels spinning.
I’ve been wheeling since about 1989. In 35 years I’ve seen off road rigs go from 33’s on lightweight vehicles being the norm. Now it’s 40’s and full size axles and 5-8000lb trucks. The tracks being laid down from these heavy ass rigs with 40’s and 42’s are ridiculous. The dirt puddle that used to be ankle deep will now swallow a 40”tire. The people who can’t seem to stay on trail are probably the same dipshits that bring spray paint on a hike to deface nature. Closures are only going to get worse. You have to know your own rig and your own capabilities. If you see someone doing something stupid say something, they may just be ignorant to what’s going on. No disrespect to the BLM but, most of them really don’t have a clue. Some guy/gal sitting behind a desk has zero idea what rigs are capable of what. I’d rather see them give tickets for sxs noise violations
Do you know if the Outback wilderness turbo would make easy work of this? Since the elevation greatly reduces the power plant of non-turbo motors. Honestly I feel white American are just butt hurt about non-American brand vehicle out on these trails. It’s not even about if the car can do it or not. Same reason why they are trying to band K-cars being imported to America now
Regardless of power, it needs clearance for trails like this. There's no way around it. You'd need at least a two inch lift on a new Outback Wilderness to have clearance comparable to the Subaru in this video. The power and gearing will *certainly* help. I wouldn't call it easy, but it should be capable. I was chasing a random misfire issue which I learned on this trip got worse with high elevation. By the time we reached the rock garden and alpine lake, my Subaru felt like it was running on 2 cylinders due to the heavy misfires. I resolved the issue after I got home, but it's still noticeably down on power at high elevation which is exacerbated by not changing the gear ratios in the differentials to match the larger diameter tires. An Outback Wilderness has notably more power, and better gearing/crawl ratio than my car.
@@SilverstoneSubie to add, I’d be wary of the rock garden. It’s a whole different story compared to what was shown in this video. Off-road angles, rocker clearance will all come into play. The stalling and surging of the TR690HT CVT will make things challenging. Gearing is so much more useful for high elevation climbs. Driving up at 10K feet feels like sea level at the lower RPMs with aggressive gearing. My 2015 FXT, which had the twin scroll turbo and max torque at around 1200-1400 RPM would really feel elevation. Having to go from an 800 rpm idle and wait until the turbo gets within boost range was very uncomfortable for me, and this was just at 8000 ft. In the town of Mammoth, CA. I feel like there’s this misconception that turbos aren’t affected by elevation, and it’s just not true. There’s many account of people with Outback XTs that report of completely stalling out on high elevation trails, much like what happened to the Forester in this video. The Outback XT is geared 13.3:1 and the OBW is 15.5:1. For reference, Lee’s Outback also has a coil over system, which absorbs the trail about easier. Do I think an Outback wilderness can do it? Not stock, atleast not in one piece and definitely not easily. Keys to success would be staying within the power band. The mid range will be strong. Utilizing left foot braking, not to “bump”, but to feather the brake coming off obstacles and rocks.
@@SilverstoneSubiea stock Outback wilderness has 11.5” of rocker clearance. Your Outback has 17-18” of rocker clearance. That’s a lot more than 2” of lift needed.
I always find your videos at least interesting. That said, flogging an all wheel drive car, even with extensive (expensive?) modifications over four wheel drive trails is kind of like asking a shetland pony to do the work of a stout pack mule. The weaknesses / short comings will eventually come into play. That said, it's your money and I'm not telling you how to spend it and it's your life and I'm not telling you how to live it.
I was flogging my Honda that I put 175K miles in 5.5 years with zero trail failures? When did this ever happen and when would I earn your approval? Do you want me to turn over 350K miles no with issues? 1 million miles? 😂
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Sorry, that you took this as a personal attack and became defensive. It was merely a comment on the concept of driving all wheel drive cars on four wheel drive trails. Something they were not designed and built for. Again, my apologies. I won't watch your videos, comment or bother you any more.
It looks like you missed the point. And that is by taking these incapable rigs on trails that they clearly cannot traverse while staying ON THE TRAIL you are giving fuel to the fire for closing trails. This video clearly shows the Subaru going around every obstacle, widening the trail which is a reason that trails are closed. Maybe it's different in California but in Colorado if you don't have the skills to negotiate an obstacle, you turn around and come back when you do. It doesn't matter weather it's a four wheel drive, ATV, dirtbike or mountainbike. YOU DO NOT GO AROUND OBSTACLES! This is what gets trails closed
@@barn640a first of all, no one drove off trail. You are CLEARLY fabricating that crap 💩. Second, taking the path of least resistance (which was done staying on trail) is treading lightly. I’m definitely willing to take a look at what you think is “OFF TRAIL”. Throw us some time stamps.
i have seen way too often some Pleb in some random AWD being stuck in need to get pulled out on trails where they had no business being on. If you want to go off road, buy a 4x4! The entirety of this video was overlanding ....dirt roads.... steep dirt roads. You are going to be in trouble as soon as there is a real obstacle because it was just rated a 3 in difficulty on your fancy app. Being prepared is everything and your AWD is not prepared for anything. A good question would be why buy a AWD over a 4x4 in the first place?
We pull out 4X4s all the time. Offroading is what you do, not what you drive. No difference of a stuck 4x4 vs a stuck AWD... both are stuck... all jealous, hater, keyboard offroaders should know this... go JonDZ! ❤
@@JonDZ_Adventuringhe's just a jealous troll acting out... you intimidate him with your legendary skills... pay no attention to the keyboard offroader peasantry
Are modern offroaders short on intelligence? I've encountered trails/climbs that my Jeeps also couldn't make...stock AND modified. A winch changed that a LOT. Many modern Jeep models are unibody, BTW. Even several of the "Trail-Rated" ones. FWIW, even the solid-axled XJ, ZJ, and WJ were unibody. Jeep and several other brands also offer "4WD" or "4x4" models that lack low-range. If you want to offroad a modern AWD Subaru, best install a winch, skidplates, and offroad-capable tires. Put a locker in the back of your Subaru if you don't want to be winching as much. Cusco also offers LSDs for both Subaru ends. Install them "tight" for max offroad capability. My stockish 2016 Crosstrek can loft tires and keep crawling. My stock CJ7s and YJ often couldn't...until I installed lockers. The Jeeps had crazy torque/descending with low-range, but my biggest concern with a stockish Lezbaru is destroying the vulnerable plastic bumpers.
Thanks for letting me join this trip. great time! The steepness is no joke. I also have the scan gauge 3 that REALLY made me feel comfortable throughout the whole climb.
@@Sergiop4x it was awesome having you and Alyssah. Thanks for joining in.
Thank you for all the insights. Just got myself a 2025 Honda Pilot Trailsport for light off-road trails.
Mainly national parks with the wife and two small dogs. Our goal is to visit all the US and Canadian national parks.
I pick the Pilot for its "off-road" capabilities but the main reason is the room it has. When all the seats are down and with a good mattress, we can sleep comfortably in it.
Edit: On a side note. I took a chance on a Lost Horizon air mattress made for the Toyota Tacoma with the 6 foot bed and it pays off. Other than flipping it front to rear, it looks and feels like it was custom made for the Pilot.
What’s funny is most of these passes were all created by pioneers with wagons and oxen, pulling them. My grandfather used to drive his model A Ford over those passes and they would have to drag trees behind them as a drag brakes to slow down, coming down the other side., he grew up in Utah.
nice perspective on the "give them a inch and they will take a mile". I hadn't considered that and I think you are right on the money.
I cannot like this video enough! Let’s all enjoy the trails while we still can
Let’s preserve these trails as well!!! The community needs to stick together, denounce bad behavior not our vehicle choice. Encourage access to the outdoors for people that aren’t able to hike 😊
@@JonDZ_Adventuring well said Jon.
I've been really impressed so far my by Forester wilderness, as much as i want to get a proper 4x4, I just end up really liking the comfort and capabilities. Only ever really had one issue myself, and that was a rutted out steep section in a tight turn where i crossed up my axles, but it made it up unassisted after giving it the beans for a few seconds with the front swaybar connected, no rear sway and xmode 1, had zero issues the second time in xmode 2 with no rear sway and the front disconnected. Not only that, but the hottest I've ever seen my CVT gets about 215. In comparison, an equally modified Forester sport with a larger transmission cooler on that same trail had to be pulled up via a winch, and pulled up the remainder of the incline by a land cruiser, with his CVT getting above 240.
And to add on about the closures, here in NC, we're having a lot of trails get shut down, and it's not cause of AWDs, but idiots in 4x4s tearing up the trails.
Thanks for chiming in Dalton. I’ve been working on this video for the past 5 days now, and not sure if anyone noticed, but I just got fed up and abruptly ended the video right before the rock garden section. At 31:39, in the wall of text, I mention that a guy in a Forester Wilderness @wildbthis drove up in his Forester wilderness with coil over lift. The fact that a SJ Forester stalled out on the trail and couldn’t continue and his FW made it up lines up perfectly with the story you’re telling. I was just done with editing this video, and it was already 30+ minutes in length. Atleast I was able to point out that Lee’s 20 year Outback made it up though!
Thanks for sharing the story about your closures down there. Large tires + ripping through a trail is going to leave a much bigger impact than an open diff AWD on 27 inch tires 😂. The reason for hate is in ALOT of cases fabricated 😂
Btw, I’m working 6 days straight and would try to get an hour of editing after work, but would eat dinner and pass out. Last night I stayed up until 2am to abruptly finish it off.
I've done cinnamon pass in a manual 2.5 forester. The one thing I missed dearly was a low range transfer case. There is just no getting around the gearing when it gets steep. You can use momentum but doing so massively increases the risk for damage or error. If only such a transfer case was still available.
What I believe prompted the concern about AWD on these trails is the marketing of AWD systems as 4WD equivalent and their proliferation. The average consumer doesn't have the technical background to judge the merits of a Subaru AWD, vs Honda AWD, vs Toyota AWD, vs Toyota 4wd. Many of these are clutch based systems or use CVTs which depend on friction. Friction generates heat which degrades performance, as compared to a locked mechanical transfer case that is staticly engaged. Electronic systems that modulate black box terrain modes don't increase capability in so much as they make is accessible to non trained drivers. The inherent risk then becomes the driver navigates to the limit of their capability with no reserve for the unforeseen. I've seen folks getting themselves into bad situations because their vehicle got them there but couldn't get them out.
Another overlooked aspect is the vehicle structure apart from drivetrain. A solid axle, body on frame SUV or truck will be more tolrant of abuse and damage than an AWD crossover. Dent a rocker panel of a CUV and you've compromised the structure of the vehicle, vs a BoF vehicle that may sustain costly damage but won't be structurally compromised. The additional provisions to be capable of mounting heavy off road tires (with a full size spare), winches and recovery points mean that getting out of a bad situation is more likely. Compare the tow hooks on a jeep to a subaru and there is no comparison, the subaru is not a safe or easy to pull out of ditch. The fact that an AWD vehicle suffers failed CV axles from a lift should be sufficient forewarning of the beyond design stress it's being subjected to.
@@JB-ss3bv well said. I’ve mentioned all this through out my videos. It’s also coincidence you mention cinnamon pass, a Subaru, and low range. In July, we took a Subaru Forester 2.5 with a dual range manual up cinnamon pass all the way to Ouray.
That's wild. I've been off-roading/overlanding my 2008 Toyota FJ for nearly 16 years and love it! Been looking at other options these past few years but cannot part with the FJ. Nice video.
@@gwilliams3079 admittedly (I made other videos about this), I never took the FJ cruiser off-road. I would just pop it into 4Hi to drive up to the local ski resort. I probably would have appreciated it little more if I put the factory rear locker to use. The initial responsiveness off the line was nice, but my main gripes were the steering dead zone and I just didn’t feel confident in it driving at high speeds. I also drove a 2008 (TRD (sticker package)). It was explained to me that this was before dual VVTI and that’s why it wasn’t as fuel efficient as the updated model. Also, the small gas tank had me filling up often. The front seats were Cabernets, but felt bad for anyone that had to sit behind me, haha! The FJ does have ALOT of character though! It’s a collectors item. You’re sitting on a gold mine.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring 100% on the small gas tank. Lucky to get 220 miles on a full tank. You make a good point as it's never been my daily driver, more of a purpose-built weekend warrior rig. Not being able to fit in parking garages and constant fill-ups would get old. Still get compliments on it and weird looks from friends/family when I talk about selling it for something new. Dig your videos.
The trail closure people are loving it when we fight amongst ourselves.
@@thewanderingpinto5979 easy manipulation
*Excellent offroading skills as always JohnDZ... you are legendary* 🙌 👏 🙏 ❤️
@@LexusGX460-OFF-ROAD thank you Mr. GX 🙏
I've explored in my outback xt, and you know all about both jeeps we've had, but I have experience and perspective from both sides , so I tend to give awds the benefit of the doubt cuz I like them. But I also feel I have a realistic expectation of what's appropriate for each. The bottom line is it is the responsibility of every driver, AWD or 4wd to know accurately how to drive and what their vehicles proper capabilities are, and try to operate within that, responsibly. If we all did this, I think this problem would solve itself. That said we just did poison springs in canyonlands recently, and it was rated as a 3, which should be fine, but we were the first people through after a recent significant washout, and it changed it to a solid 5-6 with spots of actual rock crawling. So just cuz a rating says a number, it's still smart to go into it a bit overbuilt, cuz trail conditions change and you don't want to be barely capable enough. Especially if you're out exploring. Good stuff jon!
@@seanwatson3790 WELL SAID SEAN!!! 👏 I try to do a good job at what you just mentioned. I think I’ve done a fairly decent job at “adventuring within my vehicles limits”. Bill Moore lake was a good one! Level 4 with many people thinking it was harder! That was a crazy experience!
Sure was !
Let's not forget that part of NPS/BLM/USFS's motivation for the closures in Utah (and other locations) are due to irresponsible users driving off trail or on non-motorized trails. These users are giving responsible off-roaders a bad name and threatening access to these roads and trails.
@@ryanramos1303 yeah, it’s very unfortunate. Driving up to Alstom point, there’s countless illegal tracks on the way there. It’s sad.
Let's also not forget that people have needed to be rescued because they took incapable AWDs places they should never have attempted. Yes, probably due to inexperience and marketing shenanigans, but the point remains that the vehicles are simply not nearly as capable as other choices.
@@VideosOffRoad that’s not the reason for shutting down Grand Escalante. If you’ve been out there then you’ll see evidence everywhere of illegal off-roading.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring That SUCKS! Gotta wonder if that's mostly ATVs, or everyone. I have a guess...
@@VideosOffRoad my first trip out there, a friend had this insatiable urge to start ripping around off the trail. Maybe it’s because the whole place looks like a giant off-road park and there were so many illegal **tracks** he thought it was okay? However, the roads are clearly marked, he was in a very common and capable full time 4WD vehicle. We radioed in with our disappointment and told him to get back on trail asap… then he got stuck, making it even worse. Now a very well known capable rig had to go out and winch him out. Honestly, an AWD won’t have the capability to romp around off-trail like that, but yeah, to answer your question, it appears the SxS will be the biggest culprit. There’s tracks on near vertical walls that only a Polaris Turbo can put down. There’s SxS rentals around the area too.
Nice video! Makes me want to get out there and drive.
I drive a 2” lifted 2017 Cherokee Trailhawk. The lift allows for bigger tires in my instance going from 29.5” to 31.1” making my total lift around 2.8” with around 10” real world clearance at my oil pan skid plate (winch brought it down to that). And 14” at my rock rails. There are lots of constraints due to the design and you can’t go much taller or bigger without problems.
Your vehicle has similar clearance to my car (10"-11" at oil pan/diff, 14"-16" at rockers) but much better gearing and power. Get out there!
Crazy you ve managed 170K miles with all this offroad torture without transmission issues. Makes me love my ZF 9 speed in my 22 Ridgeline even more
@@charbvin yeah, and while modified from the start. I had a 2” lift and 2.5” taller tires at 8K miles and a 3.5” lift at 52K miles. The 4.75” lift and 3” taller tires was pretty recent but a good 8K.
This road might lead to Costco ❓ I owned a Subaru 1985 GL 10 wagon 5 spd manual transmission .Actually had real 4wd hi and low transfercase .with actual neutral on the transfercase .
People have forgotten about these! Not sure what the crawler ratio was. But somewhere around 40 to 1. Redline in first gear was 4wd low was about 6 mph.
We definitely have a serious problem on our hands.
With all the restrictions headed our way, and roads are closing down. If we give them an inch, they will take a mile.
I also had a 87 GL10 wagon manual. Was awesome. Low range wasn't super low, I actually used it on the road at times, when loaded down and climbing super steep hills. It topped out around 45mph unlike my XJ which would only do 25 ish in low range. Very impressive off road rig carefully driven. I kinda miss it (and 34MPG)..
@@ta1entscout I would use 0 to 60 and 4 low then high of course I was a high school kid so I would red line shift it!😅😂! I also owned two XJ manual transmissions. One two-door and a four-door.
I did own a four wheel drive high model loyal!
And a 1986 gl 10 wagon turbo stick shift. I got 35 MPGs on the turbo highway. 30 plus City. Actually have a lot of pick up with the turbo I did a downpipe and a front mount intercooler. Probably picked up 20 to 30 horsepower. It's scooted!
I'm the opposite. We have had an 08 Mazda CX9 and liked it; then we got a 17 f150 on Bilstein 6112/5160 and 35s for a few years now and enjoyed it better for travel. It is on the big side for trails, but if it fits, it ships.
Midsized trucks aren’t nearly as comfortable as half tons. I’m sure I’d be happy with the comfort of an F150 as well, but after the CVT melted in my Subaru, the only brands I was open to was Toyota and Honda because of reliability. The Hondas hasn’t let me down, despite all the modifications thrown at it. I even found needle nose pliers jammed into my accessory belt. Still runs like a champ.
We test drove the brand new Tacoma, and it handles well. It’s a night and day difference compared to the 3rd gen Tacoma. Handles more like the lifted Honda.
I have those shocks on my 2019 Tacoma. They're fantastic on and offroad shocks. I mean I do sometimes get curious about the more expensive Fox and Kings but those are a smart, sensible purchase.
Responsible/respectable use of our public lands needs to be practiced by everyone. Leaving trash and body waste or driving off trail will shut down any area. As far as radiators go, misting systems have been around a long time. My father used one on his 66 Dodge Monico station wagon powered by a 383. That hunk of iron would get hot pulling a trailer up hills. He had a 5-gallon tank in the rear sitting well with a small electric pump that sent water to mister. He also had to put asbestos heat wrap on the fuel line to prevent vapor lock. Those were the days.
@@alanmohn4146 well said!
Yeah idk man, stopping, trying to figure out how to cool my rig……I couldn’t do it. I’d probably just by a 4Runner, but do you man. Great video
I saw a video of a Subaru do Black Bear Pass a couple of weeks ago that was sick! It was a forester wilderness.
That’s Matthew Heiskill. We drove up Imogene Pass together back when he had his SK Forester. Out of 4 CVT equipped Subarus, he did the best with his light build and skills to pay the bills. The way that guy flies a drone and drives is high level, so I wouldn’t expect others to have the same result as him.
as always super nice footage and compelling story
Always a great video! You definitely want a puller fan on a cooler like the stock one vs a pusher. The pusher will just block flow all the time, but will be really bad unless you have a ton of air pressure and flow like you would get at high speed.
@@owequitit thanks! I reinstalled the lower front bumper. I think it’ll help better route airflow at the slower speeds and improve aerodynamics for higher speeds. I cut the front bumper at the beginning of vehicle ownership when I didn’t even have a lift kit. Now that total front bumper clearance has gone up over 6” from lift and tires, there’s just no need for a cut front bumper. Also, I forgot to mention that after this trip in this video, I had a super charger cooler installed as a transmission cooler. I guess it works so good that my engine coolant is what overheats now? That was the main reason for installing the lower rear bumper.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I knew you installed the supercooler, but figured it might be beneficial for anyone trying to run a fan on the stock cooler.
Keep the videos coming!
@@owequitit absolutely! I’m still trying to fine tune the cooler setup. There were a lot of issues with loose hose clamps during the Colorado trip that followed this trip in this video. In the back of my head, a strong puller fan setup sounds so much more reliable and carefree, It’s still on the table.
Also, I rewatched my old video to compare how temps were in the past. It was a BIG difference!! I’d really like to get my Honda on a diet. The Wife insists on us keeping the RTT though.
I use a Y splitter hose to a windshield washer and route the sprayer similar to the Subaru. This way, I won’t need a separate reservoir and use the same control to trigger the sprayer.
@@tdatu I have a digital rear view camera, so i don’t need the rear windshield washer. I’d like to tap into that line!
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I see, yes you can re-route it like that and use it to feed the sprayer. I found many yt examples and many rv owners uses the same especially when they’re climbing mountain passes.
I was going ti spend all that money too. On my bronco sport badlands, which I liked a lot. But just decided to take that money and bought wrangler. Now I dont have to worry about any of that.
@@mikefranklin70 I’m not buying any car right now, not with these crazy interest rates and prices 😂
@@JonDZ_Adventuring For the first time ever you could have equity in your vehicle. When I got into that baby bronco a year back is because I got 16k on a car I owed 8k on. And after a year I owed 22k on the bronco. They gave me 26k. So theres 2 sides to that problem.
With all your modifications that may be a problem though. Or maybe not.
@@mikefranklin70 I have 160K on the Odometer (175k+ driven, but they don’t know that 😂), KBB says my car would be worth like $9K because of all the miles
John, since you used to be in the Subaru community, you should get somebody to swap in the drivetrain from the conventional transmission Subaru Forrester into an SVX, that would make one hell of an overland rig.
@aventuresofsandra is STILL in the Subaru Community. She daily drives her 3rd gen Forester to and from work. The 4Runner is only for her adventures.
Ha my Kelty backroads is a pain to set up, but it does work!
Park Staff/IFW cant be experts in upgrades. TFL was talking about OEM so a Park Ranger could look up a list and OK you without having to understand lifts kits or regearing, etc. Your Subbie is a 1%r. But. I did pick up a BSBadlands for the reasons you explained. I LOVE driving it as a DD AND already used it to climb blueberry barrens and such.
@@ShawnBox are you cousins with Daryl from Arrowhead overland? I remember watching the video, Bronco sport did great up there
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Not knowingly. Hehe. I think that is in California. Where my Grandfather lived but not much contact with that side of family. I live in Maine.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring have link to video? We have wood, mud, and slick rock. But we'll probably do the MOAB Bronco Rodeo to experience that ledge climbing type of off roading.
Man, I wonder if a Forester Wilderness would fair better than the SJ. I love TFL but I wish they actually had a restored relationship with Subaru so they wouldn’t be so biased against them 😕 I’m sure they’ve got valid reasons but I’d love for them to work with wilderness trims
Tucked away at 31:39, in the body of text it says “a modified Forester Wilderness drove up here a week before we did” 😊
TFL has made multiple attempts to restore the relationship, but unfortunately, Subaru has been unresponsive. TFL refrained from giving their opinion about Subaru making it on their list.
Forester Wilderness still struggles once a wheel comes off the ground without the aftermarket rear aussie locker. That extra gearing only covers the increased tire size.
@@JonDZ_Adventuringawe I missed that! 😂 thanks for including it! I’ve been watching Matthew H. tackle some crazy stuff in FW. He is obviously a very skilled driver but he swears by the Wilderness Foz. (and because my wife won’t let me trade mine for a 4Runner or a true 4x4, it gives me hope that I can do some moderate trails and camp out🤘🏻)
@@sfshiloI can't say I've had that issue myself getting a wheel off the ground. Only time I had an issue was a steep rutted out incline in a sharp turn where I crossed up my axles. Gave it the beans and it figured things out after about 10 seconds. Had zero issues doing that spot the next time in x-mode 2.
Not into overlanding but my 2021 Passport Touring in stock form with a set of Wildpeaks AT Trail has served me well in winter in deep ish snow to and from the ski resorts and that's pretty good to me. Is it me or that little fan you put in was put in backwards so it's sucking air out instead of blowing in. If it's sucking out, you are fighting against the fans and causing cooling issues.
@@jasonsong86 fan was pushing into the cooler. I ran it like that in August 2023 when I took some Subies up Imogene Pass. Temps hit no higher than 218F. Well, at this point with 175k miles, I’ll be swapping in a new Alternator, which involves moving the radiator, so we will be swapping in a new radiator and alternator while we are at it. Going to do all this tomorrow actually.
You are so right. If you give them an inch they will try and stop all travel.
My work has me off-roading old mine roads after driving from WY to CA. I sincerely wish that all roads were as good as that! I was out there in CA this June powering through drifts in the high sierras and a lot more. What's the best rig to drive 1k miles and sleep out of for a month off road? I use a 3rd gen 4Runner for IFS and skinny long lifted cargo space I can sleep in.
@@TRyan3 and don’t forget to use chains! The difference was unbelievable. I have a video of driving through 3 feet of snow in the eastern sierras, and much of the success was using chains.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Yea, even in June.
Watch the popular recovery channels. It’s always FWD, trucks, and SxS’s, getting stuck. The nut behind the wheel is the most important factor in any vehicle.
@@anonymous..- yeah, your right. A lot of these Utah trail closures are from disrespect to the land
I own a 21 Ridgeline. Great vehicle overall, but I am very surprised the Ridgeline is included on TFL's list of OK vehicles. While the I-VTM-4 is great, I would not have the nerve to do trails like this due to the pitiful clearance and angles. Plus, unlike the Trail Sport Pilot, I can't tell that the newer Trail Sport Ridgelines are significantly improved in these areas. They do have one small skid plate under the oil pan, and probably tougher AT tires. But the clearance and angles are still bad.
8" clearance on Trailhawk? I have 11" in my Rav4... (not stock) I suppose I could do the same mods and get a Trailhawk up to 11-12" as well. I've made it up places where I've seen lifted 90's Jeep Cherokees, and stock 4-runners have bailed and turn around, so I would definitely put the Rav4 on the list. Mt Blanca Rd up to 10,800 where the crawling becomes a level 7 or 8 (that was the end of the road for me), Mt Antero to the top of the road at 13K, Imogene Pass... I wonder if Toyota's run hotter naturally, because my trans temp will sit around 212 just driving around town. I also like how they passed several pull offs while repeatedly mentioning "Next pull off" - maybe they were just searching for a large enough pull off for the whole group, not just one car. Sand Dunes- Medano Pass, level 3 or 4... I've been up it many times in the Rav4, and a Ranger gave us a bunch of crap the last time... and THEN I noticed the change in the trail sign! I'm bummed, but I will just drive around and approach from Huerfano county instead. I agree- division = Doom! That's how they want it though, divide and conquer!
Even though I can't go to some of the place you go I love driving my 2015 Forester, but it's get to the point I am starting to look for another car. I'm at 170,000. 😢😊
@@suzettecalleja3122 I’m finding there’s so much more to adventure than just driving far distances to continue to drive on an off-road trail 🤣, and then drive a long distance home. It gets so old. Loving my new perspective on outdoor adventure. Right after this trip up here, I hiked Half Dome 2 days after.
I have followed the TFL-Subaru saga for a while now, and basically they called out Subaru for overpromising and under delivering on capability (after the vehicle was damaged in one of their standard tests), which ultimately puts customers into potentially dangerous situations, and Subaru got butthurt and won’t lend them vehicles anymore.
Too bad but tells me all I need to know about the brand.
@@MichaelSimmons-ee4ib I’ve been following it as well. I actually owned a Subaru when all the drama happened, and I was finding out that my CVT equipped 2015 FXT wasn’t up to the task. My friends with the automatic Subarus (4EAT and 5EAT) were doing so much better, and when the CVT melted (with no warning lights) at 62K, I traded that thing in. I was watching their Golf Mine hill tests, and I was in disbelief that of the few AWDs that made it up, Honda iVTM4 was one of them. I expected the Jeep trailhawk AWDs to make it, but not Honda. Then I did more research and found out they use the same transmission, the ZF9 (which had a dramatic beginning itself), which was a big part of capability. Fast forward almost a decade later and we’ve all become familiar with the shortcomings of the CVT. This video right here proves it. What I also wanted to talk about is that a guy with a Forester Wilderness was able to drive up this trail, which would also show that Subaru has a CVT vehicle that is capable of driving up. At the end of the video, I mentioned it in text.
These closures are a possibility because people are destroying the trails. It's just not coming up for no reason. I recall a Coyote Flats video where Trail Recon arrived at one of their camp sites.. as they briefly showed the site you could clearly see trash and camp chair or tarp and other stuff left behind by another party.
@@jcberb I ended this video early. It was 30 minutes and I just left my final thoughts and cut it off right before the good part, the Rock garden and the Lake. I guess I should make another video and continued where I left off. The title will be “bags of Sh*t left at campsite, baking in the sun”. Yep, this really happened. My friend Lee picked up the sh*t bags, and I packed them out in my trasharoo. There’s a lot of reasons for trail closures, Mother Nature is probably the biggest culprit, snow and mud will close a trail down for sure. Next is the illegal off-roading and driving off trail.
I dunno my 19 Rav4 LE hangs with the tacos and 4runners here on the east coast just fine. Granted our worst terrain is tucked away in offroad parks. Also I am on TRD Springs with a 2 inch lift with 11 inches of center clearance and 15 of rocker.
The West is a different world. Elevation and rocks. Although, you guys deal with more mud 🤟
@@JonDZ_Adventuring West might as well be another planet lol last trail I was on has its steep climbs but our mountains are so old and worn they don't last very long lol things are so old they don't even have fossilized land animals in them. Want to do a trip out west soon. I'm thinking Arizona.
I have felt that pedal to the floor feeling before :(
You won’t in your new Rig!! If anything happens, it’s dirt getting kicked up. No more stalling!
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I am excited for that! I can't wait to feel it climb at AWD Festival in Oct.
@GotterAdventure so, after 5.5 years, I’ve discovered that the ZF9 doesn’t always drop into 1st gear steep trails. Make sure to go into “Sequential mode” and manual 1st gear to lock it in.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I will learn to master that technique!
@@GotterAdventure I found this out because my new Scan Gauge 3 can show what gear the Honda is in. I noticed that it tends to just stay in 2nd gear, even when climbing. Only on something very very steep and challenging, does it drop into 1st. So, 1st truly is the low range in the Honda.
the problem with NPS “rules “ on traveling 4x4 high clearance trails is they are generic for factory equipment vehicles. They will not address modified vehicles because they come in all types of configurations. Too hard to enforce; easier to just hand out fines and scare AWD’s and enjoyed by some 4x4 owners.
BTW, I have a Porsche Cayenne Diesel with 2” lift, 32” BFG KO2’s, complete underbody protection and rock rails, added recovery points front and rear. This vehicle has a transfer case with low offroad range. Never had a problem going where the Jeep JK’s and Gladiator’s go. And yet due to this now publicized NPS “rule” I have been kicked out of the overland club for my safety. Ha Ha!
@@ScramblinJim 1st gen Cayennes have full time 4WD though.
Most of it's about whether you have low range and not whether you have all wheel drive. And I know you said most all-wheel drive. My Cherokee trailhawk has arguably all wheel drive if you want to get technical about it but it also has low range and a rear locker and would probably beat some older Open open four-wheel drive (center lock) vehicles.
But then the electric vehicles are awd with no low range but no issues usually.
So what are we really talking about here?
We're talking about wheel torque.
I assume it’s the National Park Service lawyers putting up the signs. So they’re not responsible for anything that happens to a AWD. Next step will be closing to all vehicles.
@@RandomGuy-qm3mg the trails closures are mostly due to disrespect to the land, most likely done by the more capable vehicles that can drive anywhere they want. They’re not staying on trail.
I could see this coming from Sierra club types....we need to form an off road club with a team of lawyers and will require annual dues to keep these trails open....IE..lobbyist to work in washington. By the way many of these cars getting stuck are rentals that have no experience and need to be recovered.
What's the elevation of this area? How much power loss are you dealing with? Was everybody in your crew driving a vehicle with a naturally aspirated engine?
@@uncalm trial starts at 4300 ft. And climbs to as high as 10,400 ft. Every 1000 ft there’s a 3% loss in power and torque, but in 4Lo or aggressive gearing, it’s not really noticeable in a naturally aspirated engine. I’ve driven up Imogene Pass at 13,100 ft, and the Honda in first gear feels like it’s at sea level.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Nice, makes sense, thanks for the explanation. Seems like it would mostly affect naturally aspirated vehicles with taller gearing then, or vehicles that just don't have a lot of torque to begin with. I appreciated the video and the honest discussion!
If you had like say half the weight maybe some items that you don't need for that trail would the transmission still get as hot
@@williamhibbard1535 no, and this was proved during our Colorado trip with Ian from @nolodesigns. His Ridgeline is very light and we were able to compare it to another Ridgeline with a bed rack and roof top tent. Their transmission temps were very different. Those episodes will be coming up next, I have a lot of catch up to do
Well don't stop doing what you guys love. It looks like your having to much fun LOL
Is it necessary to monitor transmission temps in a manual vehicle?
@@jamesjoung2793 not in a manual, but keeping tabs on coolant temps will be a good idea. Unfortunately, there’s no way to indicate when the clutch is going to be fried. There’s a TH-cam video of a Crosstrek manual that tried to drive up this trail and his clutch burned out. He had to get towed up.
How come the Jeep Grand Cherokee Trailhawk is not on the TFL parks official list??
Because it’s actual 4WD with a low gear transfer case 😃
@@JonDZ_Adventuring What about a not grand, plain old Cherokee?
Ohhh yeah?
They didn't just start enforcing the laws, they just didn't have as many tools with subarus that can't handle harder stuff.
Did you do an exhaust delete...?
@@BrofessorDom just cut the exhaust tips. I still have both mufflers
THIS is one of the main reasons why I drive a vehicle with a low range transfer case. No overheating concerns either. Goes anywhere. If comfort and daily driving is the priority, "DENIED" shouldn't be a surprise. But at least you'll have a comfortable ride coming back down the trail and going home with your tail between your legs. 😉. Good info here for those with AWDs, though, especially about the Scangauge.
@@VideosOffRoad that’s not true, overheating happens with 4WDs as well, seen it so many times. That’s why a Scangauge (or equivalent) is so important, and if you don’t have one, you might be overheating without knowing about it. Honestly, if I didn’t pull over when the transmission was at 235F (because I wasn’t monitoring temps) the warning light would never come on because it won’t pop up until 270F, but we both know that’s a dangerous temp that has probably caused damage.
I’ve had a couple of friends get their 4Runners up to 235F as well in 4Lo on this trail, and I have a friend that was hitting 245F in his 4Runner just driving on a steep highway. Gear hunting was most likely the culprit. A Jeep JK friend had his transmission overheating in 4Lo, probably due to some internal issue. I rewatched my old video of my last trip on this trail and temps were much lower. This was before the roof top tent.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring wait, if AWD center and rear differentials don't overheat, then some people with 4wd and transfer cases can't feel smug and superior. Doesn't that bother you?
Hi, are you using a DJI Mini 4 Pro?
I’m not sure what my friend has
@@JonDZ_Adventuring What was wrong with the FJ Cruiser as a daily driver?
@@DaciaProjectdrove like a brick. Steering dead zone. Slow. Guzzled gas. It also had a small interior in comparison. Just too much compromise to drive off-road a level or two better. I’d say the Passport is 5 levels higher as a daily driver / road tripper.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring A friend of mine has one on 35s with a six inch lift…
@@DaciaProject yikes! I know exactly how that drives, minus not having the 4.7 V8. I wouldn’t wish that upon anyone
Can a 2023 Honda Ridgeline blk edition handle this trail?
I can't imagine unless it has better angles and clearance than my 21(whatever the model is just below Black). Even the newer Trailsport does not significantly improve clearance or angles. But, if you or your spotter is skilled enough at picking the correct line, maybe even my Ridgeline could make it.
Which trail is this?
@@Rosh___ sorry, I intentionally did not mention the trail because I didn’t want people to take this video as a “challenge”. My intent is to help educate and help people “adventure within their limits”, but the answers to your question “may” 😉 be tucked away in the video description.
Well, this place in no secret location. Coyote Flats, / Funnel Lakes have been well known destinations for decades.. I was first in the Flats in 1984 when Boeing and the Army were doing high altitude certifications for the big helos. (CH-47's and CH-53's) at the "airfield" up there. In fact, when I made that first trek up there, I did it in a 2WD Chevy 1500 with zero lift and no armor and had zero issues. Unfortunately, the trail was shut down most of last year due to trail repairs that needed to take place due to rains and the horrific ruts the side-by-sides were (are) causing... Look at the Laurel Lakes trail to see some really bad road/rut conditions that have been caused by these riders.
Mopar/Raptor/Tremor/Hemi/Bison only bruhh!
A lot of the ability of awd depends on the driver. A good driver in a subaru than can go farther than an inexperienced driver in
a Rubicon.
@@tomhenderson7972 well, in this case, the vehicle was the limiting factor. As mentioned, the guy was driving on a non technical steep trail. While floored, his speedometer slowly dropped to 0 mph. The engine was revving, but no wheels spinning.
I’ve been wheeling since about 1989. In 35 years I’ve seen off road rigs go from 33’s on lightweight vehicles being the norm. Now it’s 40’s and full size axles and 5-8000lb trucks. The tracks being laid down from these heavy ass rigs with 40’s and 42’s are ridiculous. The dirt puddle that used to be ankle deep will now swallow a 40”tire. The people who can’t seem to stay on trail are probably the same dipshits that bring spray paint on a hike to deface nature. Closures are only going to get worse.
You have to know your own rig and your own capabilities. If you see someone doing something stupid say something, they may just be ignorant to what’s going on.
No disrespect to the BLM but, most of them really don’t have a clue. Some guy/gal sitting behind a desk has zero idea what rigs are capable of what. I’d rather see them give tickets for sxs noise violations
Do you know if the Outback wilderness turbo would make easy work of this? Since the elevation greatly reduces the power plant of non-turbo motors.
Honestly I feel white American are just butt hurt about non-American brand vehicle out on these trails. It’s not even about if the car can do it or not. Same reason why they are trying to band K-cars being imported to America now
Regardless of power, it needs clearance for trails like this. There's no way around it. You'd need at least a two inch lift on a new Outback Wilderness to have clearance comparable to the Subaru in this video. The power and gearing will *certainly* help. I wouldn't call it easy, but it should be capable. I was chasing a random misfire issue which I learned on this trip got worse with high elevation. By the time we reached the rock garden and alpine lake, my Subaru felt like it was running on 2 cylinders due to the heavy misfires. I resolved the issue after I got home, but it's still noticeably down on power at high elevation which is exacerbated by not changing the gear ratios in the differentials to match the larger diameter tires. An Outback Wilderness has notably more power, and better gearing/crawl ratio than my car.
@@SilverstoneSubie to add, I’d be wary of the rock garden. It’s a whole different story compared to what was shown in this video. Off-road angles, rocker clearance will all come into play. The stalling and surging of the TR690HT CVT will make things challenging. Gearing is so much more useful for high elevation climbs. Driving up at 10K feet feels like sea level at the lower RPMs with aggressive gearing. My 2015 FXT, which had the twin scroll turbo and max torque at around 1200-1400 RPM would really feel elevation. Having to go from an 800 rpm idle and wait until the turbo gets within boost range was very uncomfortable for me, and this was just at 8000 ft. In the town of Mammoth, CA.
I feel like there’s this misconception that turbos aren’t affected by elevation, and it’s just not true. There’s many account of people with Outback XTs that report of completely stalling out on high elevation trails, much like what happened to the Forester in this video. The Outback XT is geared 13.3:1 and the OBW is 15.5:1. For reference, Lee’s Outback also has a coil over system, which absorbs the trail about easier.
Do I think an Outback wilderness can do it? Not stock, atleast not in one piece and definitely not easily. Keys to success would be staying within the power band. The mid range will be strong. Utilizing left foot braking, not to “bump”, but to feather the brake coming off obstacles and rocks.
@@SilverstoneSubiea stock Outback wilderness has 11.5” of rocker clearance. Your Outback has 17-18” of rocker clearance. That’s a lot more than 2” of lift needed.
I always find your videos at least interesting. That said, flogging an all wheel drive car, even with extensive (expensive?) modifications over four wheel drive trails is kind of like asking a shetland pony to do the work of a stout pack mule. The weaknesses / short comings will eventually come into play. That said, it's your money and I'm not telling you how to spend it and it's your life and I'm not telling you how to live it.
I was flogging my Honda that I put 175K miles in 5.5 years with zero trail failures? When did this ever happen and when would I earn your approval? Do you want me to turn over 350K miles no with issues? 1 million miles? 😂
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Sorry, that you took this as a personal attack and became defensive. It was merely a comment on the concept of driving all wheel drive cars on four wheel drive trails. Something they were not designed and built for. Again, my apologies. I won't watch your videos, comment or bother you any more.
Good, keep the burnout crowd off the trails
Also, FJ for life.
It looks like you missed the point. And that is by taking these incapable rigs on trails that they clearly cannot traverse while staying ON THE TRAIL you are giving fuel to the fire for closing trails. This video clearly shows the Subaru going around every obstacle, widening the trail which is a reason that trails are closed. Maybe it's different in California but in Colorado if you don't have the skills to negotiate an obstacle, you turn around and come back when you do. It doesn't matter weather it's a four wheel drive, ATV, dirtbike or mountainbike. YOU DO NOT GO AROUND OBSTACLES! This is what gets trails closed
@@barn640a first of all, no one drove off trail. You are CLEARLY fabricating that crap 💩. Second, taking the path of least resistance (which was done staying on trail) is treading lightly.
I’m definitely willing to take a look at what you think is “OFF TRAIL”. Throw us some time stamps.
i have seen way too often some Pleb in some random AWD being stuck in need to get pulled out on trails where they had no business being on. If you want to go off road, buy a 4x4! The entirety of this video was overlanding ....dirt roads.... steep dirt roads. You are going to be in trouble as soon as there is a real obstacle because it was just rated a 3 in difficulty on your fancy app.
Being prepared is everything and your AWD is not prepared for anything. A good question would be why buy a AWD over a 4x4 in the first place?
@@takingnamesplayinggames2587 you didn’t watch the video did you? Your answer is in the first part of the video.
We pull out 4X4s all the time. Offroading is what you do, not what you drive. No difference of a stuck 4x4 vs a stuck AWD... both are stuck... all jealous, hater, keyboard offroaders should know this... go JonDZ! ❤
@@JonDZ_Adventuringhe's just a jealous troll acting out... you intimidate him with your legendary skills... pay no attention to the keyboard offroader peasantry
@@LexusGX460-OFF-ROAD he’s a special one for sure 😂.
Are modern offroaders short on intelligence?
I've encountered trails/climbs that my Jeeps also couldn't make...stock AND modified. A winch changed that a LOT.
Many modern Jeep models are unibody, BTW. Even several of the "Trail-Rated" ones. FWIW, even the solid-axled XJ, ZJ, and WJ were unibody. Jeep and several other brands also offer "4WD" or "4x4" models that lack low-range.
If you want to offroad a modern AWD Subaru, best install a winch, skidplates, and offroad-capable tires. Put a locker in the back of your Subaru if you don't want to be winching as much. Cusco also offers LSDs for both Subaru ends. Install them "tight" for max offroad capability.
My stockish 2016 Crosstrek can loft tires and keep crawling. My stock CJ7s and YJ often couldn't...until I installed lockers. The Jeeps had crazy torque/descending with low-range, but my biggest concern with a stockish Lezbaru is destroying the vulnerable plastic bumpers.