One thing to add here: I don't think throwing curveballs at ages 12-14 is the worst thing in the world, depending on the percentage theyre thrown in the overall pitch mix - 20% is probably fine from both a health and development standpoint. It's a BIG problem when kids of any age are throwing 35% or more curveballs in their mix. But, I think less is better - 0 is best - below 14U for the developmental aspect. Screwing around with different types of pitches when playing catch is a fine at any age - it teaches dexterity and is fun, develops a passion for throwing. Yet, I think those formative years should be spent focusing entirely on fastball command and changeup development in games. I didn't address this in the video.
I’m 12 and it’s my first year playing baseball. Just watched your video on curveballs and I got it second try. I play in house League and can’t wait to see kids faces when I throw them
The curveball is all about repetition, as with any pitch, and figuring which grip and version works best for you. Learn a grip you’re comfortable with and the arm angle upon release you need to get that forward spin and just work on it:
My sons team played 1st week of December against a team from CA. Their coach was doing exactly what you said with his pitcher (having him throw curveballs like hitting a button in a video game). This is 11U and most of our kids were not hitting well that game and certainly not his curve. So, their coach just had him throw more. After 4 innings our boys started figuring it out and they rocked him pretty well. We won that game and ended up facing that team again in the ship the next day. I keep score for our team. The other team handed me their line up and had the same kid pitching to start the championship game. Rules for this tournament were if you pitch 4 innings in a single day you are required 2 days rest. I pointed it out to our coach and the umpires. Tournament director had to get involved, the other parents were pissed, kid was pissed a parent go tossed. But the game we played the day before he threw 82 pitches in that game. Regardless he wasn’t allowed to pitch we beat them again. Our coach is strict with the pitching, he had TJ surgery and played D1 ball.
As a coach I start teaching the curveball as soon as I see the kids warming up trying to spin a curve. Here's why. The kids want to throw it. So you might as well teach em right. And yes I do absolutely teach fastball first, then change up 2nd. Then curve. And in a game at 11 12 13u you can throw about 5 a game.
Yeah I dont disagree. Did I mention that in this video? I feel like I talked about that in one of my recent ones, letting kids tinker in practice; may be an upcoming one. Either way, sounds like you've got a thoughtful approach. Thanks for sharing.
I could be wrong but I teach my guys change ups and curves regardless of age when they can locate their fastball somewhat fairly consistently. It shows me they are working at home not just team practice eye wash and taking it seriously with a straight pitch. My thinking is if you can't sniff your spot with a straight ball then how are you going to be able to hit a spot with a ball that moves? if they can do that then more than likely they will work at home on the breaking balls which should make the change and curveball a lot easier to learn and be somewhat successful with and help themselves and the team. And it kinda motivates them more with practicing on their own and get rewarded for it
I have noticed over time when I start throwing harder and harder, my curveball breaks sharper and sharper. It’s not necessarily sharp, but it’s getting sharper. Should I just stick to the curveball and focus on it?
sounds like it's improving. There's no harm in tinkering with a slider to see what's there - you won't have anything to compare your curveball to unless you, well, have something to compare it to. If you feel like your curveball is established and wont vanished if you spend a little time trying a slider in practice, then tinker. I actually wish I had done that in my early 20s.
Sliders do not automatically hurt your arm. If that was true no one would be in the majors. Refer to my slider video on how to throw them, but no pitch is without risk.
Good stuff here. I agree that the typical "get me over" CB won't cut it for long at the high school level. If it is true that it takes 2 years to develop a good CB, and it is also true that this CB won't be good enough at the next level (meaning you will have to develop a slider)...aren't we really saying that we need 4 years to develop a CB that will be a usable pitch at the next level? More practice is better when learning any new skill. But the practice has to be "right" meaning dosing and contextual factors need to be a part of the learning plan. Good discussion by your followers!
no, it's not what I'm saying that it takes 4 years to develop a college-usable CB. Some players just don't have the ability to develop a next level curveball no matter what they do. some of it is innate, just like anything else.
You don't need any 2 years to develop a good curveball. It can be done in about 6 to 7 months. You definitely don't need 4 years to develop that pitch. College age is a good age to develop a slider, though some coaches will introduce it once you can throw 80 mph.
As an umpire, I can confirm that most youth pitchers have horrible curve balls. Basically just a changeup that moves a little. But I've seen a 12 year old throw and locate a curve that was shockingly good. Unbelievable cut with superb accuracy. But that's ONE kid I recall being able to do so after umpiring tons of youth games.
"Most" youth pitchers have horrible curveballs? Maybe most that you have seen. There are kids who can throw great curveballs. I have kids who can throw them with 20"+ of forward spin that are great curveballs. The ones you are seeing have not been properly trained to throw them. There are young players who can indeed throw great curveballs, whether they are beginner curveballs or big league curveballs.
@@tootallforbaseball Like said. They exist. But they are super rare. And if you can't locate your fastball, you need to find another position on the team no matter how fast you throw or how good your offspeed is. Location in the first and most important skill to master.
@@MH-Tesla No sir, they are not super rare. I have several who throw great curveballs who are under the age of 12. I am well aware of the need to locate a fastball.
@@tootallforbaseball okay. And I still don't believe you. I've coached and umpired and every team says they have a pitcher who can their "x fast" or has a great "x pitch." But they don't. They live in a bubble. If they ever saw what they think they have they'd maybe start to realize they are only looking at a miniscule sample size and "their pitcher" is great in that sample. But I'm telling you, most pitchers can't throw an effective curve ball outside of it acting like a changeup. Again, not saying they don't exist. I've seen them. But it's like a white elephant. They are rare. If you have one, great. But you're talking maybe 5% at best. The other 95% throwing a curve don't throw it well at all. And when you are a good one.... You know it because it stands out. You think, "something must be wrong here, no way a ball can do that." But it can, thrown by the right pitcher. The first time I saw it I stopped the game and examined the ball. You don't have an Umpire do that if it's common place.
This is interesting. My kid is in 14u now. At 10u and especially 11u I would say 90% of kids throw some type of curve/slider. The only kids that were not are kids with elite speed. 5-10 mph faster then normal. Last year at 13u I would say pitchers are throwing 20 to 30 percent of these pitches. Basically every batter see's one.
The kids I know who developed arm trouble from throwing too many curveballs were taught to heavily suppinate the pitch. I wonder if that was a factor in ASMI's findings.
Most likely, those kids were actually throwing sliders, not curveballs, which are tough on the elbow. Get PitchLogic or a Rapsodo to ensure that the pitch is actually a curveball, not a slider. A slider has a lot of gyrospin, whereas a curveball has forward spin. Gyrospin means you got on the side of the ball, which is tough on the elbow. Staying on the front of the ball is not stressful on the arm.
@@DanBlewett -- I would not recommend a long term study in which supinating the pitch was a parameter, because, as some old, old timers informed me long ago, that was the original slider, and those who utilized it found out that after a period of time their elbows turned to mush.
@@tootallforbaseball -- Yes, supinating the the pitching hand would provide slider action to that pitch, which many youth coaches and youth in general mistakenly confuse for a curveball.
@@cwj9202 A curveball is also a supinated pitch. Turning the wrist or pressure on the side of the ball would result in the gyro spin action I am referring to. A curveball tumbles over the middle finger with a relatively low gyro degree, whereas the slider has a high gyro degree. A curveball has low gyro spin and high spin efficiency, while the slider has a much higher gyro spin rate and low spin efficiency. Many young players have a flat curveball that is really much closer to a slider that is an injury waiting to happen.
Great video. I very much agree with the points that are made especially the subjectivity that comes along with injuries. I have wondered regarding the ASMI research as it pertains to curveballs and athletes reporting more arm pain though, could these troubles be from over use altogether? If we consider that the young athletes who do develop curveballs at early stages and see success are those who take 1,000s of reps more than athletes who haven't necessarily started focus on being a pitcher and are just throwers who pitch whenever coach needs them. Would love to hear your thoughts and if you believe there is an alternative to young athletes who are just stay ahead of the competition by growing their arsenal?
Great point here - you're 100% right that the best way to earn more innings, and thus get overused, is by being good. Bad, unreliable pitchers don't get overused. Have to have coaches that see the longterm picture and not try to use their best kids every time they need a win. I think kids should practice tinkering with other pitches in catch and practice - it improves dexterity and feel for pitching, but I'm pretty firm in my belief that three pitches - fastball, change and one breaking ball - is all a pitcher needs until pro ball.
One thing to add here: I don't think throwing curveballs at ages 12-14 is the worst thing in the world, depending on the percentage theyre thrown in the overall pitch mix - 20% is probably fine from both a health and development standpoint. It's a BIG problem when kids of any age are throwing 35% or more curveballs in their mix. But, I think less is better - 0 is best - below 14U for the developmental aspect. Screwing around with different types of pitches when playing catch is a fine at any age - it teaches dexterity and is fun, develops a passion for throwing. Yet, I think those formative years should be spent focusing entirely on fastball command and changeup development in games. I didn't address this in the video.
I’m 12 and it’s my first year playing baseball. Just watched your video on curveballs and I got it second try. I play in house League and can’t wait to see kids faces when I throw them
The curveball is all about repetition, as with any pitch, and figuring which grip and version works best for you. Learn a grip you’re comfortable with and the arm angle upon release you need to get that forward spin and just work on it:
👍👍
Thanks for the fantastic feedback Coach
My sons team played 1st week of December against a team from CA. Their coach was doing exactly what you said with his pitcher (having him throw curveballs like hitting a button in a video game).
This is 11U and most of our kids were not hitting well that game and certainly not his curve. So, their coach just had him throw more.
After 4 innings our boys started figuring it out and they rocked him pretty well. We won that game and ended up facing that team again in the ship the next day.
I keep score for our team. The other team handed me their line up and had the same kid pitching to start the championship game.
Rules for this tournament were if you pitch 4 innings in a single day you are required 2 days rest. I pointed it out to our coach and the umpires.
Tournament director had to get involved, the other parents were pissed, kid was pissed a parent go tossed. But the game we played the day before he threw 82 pitches in that game.
Regardless he wasn’t allowed to pitch we beat them again. Our coach is strict with the pitching, he had TJ surgery and played D1 ball.
Gross. Good for you for pointing it out. It's a shame none of those parents have a clue about protecting their kid.
As a coach I start teaching the curveball as soon as I see the kids warming up trying to spin a curve. Here's why. The kids want to throw it. So you might as well teach em right. And yes I do absolutely teach fastball first, then change up 2nd. Then curve. And in a game at 11 12 13u you can throw about 5 a game.
Yeah I dont disagree. Did I mention that in this video? I feel like I talked about that in one of my recent ones, letting kids tinker in practice; may be an upcoming one. Either way, sounds like you've got a thoughtful approach. Thanks for sharing.
You can throw a whole lot more than 5 in a game. Do not fear the curveball, just learn how to throw it correctly.
I could be wrong but I teach my guys change ups and curves regardless of age when they can locate their fastball somewhat fairly consistently. It shows me they are working at home not just team practice eye wash and taking it seriously with a straight pitch. My thinking is if you can't sniff your spot with a straight ball then how are you going to be able to hit a spot with a ball that moves? if they can do that then more than likely they will work at home on the breaking balls which should make the change and curveball a lot easier to learn and be somewhat successful with and help themselves and the team. And it kinda motivates them more with practicing on their own and get rewarded for it
thats a good approach!
I forgot I threw submarine and watched the whole thing... Welp
I have noticed over time when I start throwing harder and harder, my curveball breaks sharper and sharper. It’s not necessarily sharp, but it’s getting sharper. Should I just stick to the curveball and focus on it?
sounds like it's improving. There's no harm in tinkering with a slider to see what's there - you won't have anything to compare your curveball to unless you, well, have something to compare it to. If you feel like your curveball is established and wont vanished if you spend a little time trying a slider in practice, then tinker. I actually wish I had done that in my early 20s.
Great video. I have a question. Is there a way to throw a slider without hurting your arm?
Sliders do not automatically hurt your arm. If that was true no one would be in the majors. Refer to my slider video on how to throw them, but no pitch is without risk.
Which is more effective for a lefty pitcher, a slider or a curveball?
It matters what pitches you throw and what you can throw best
there's nothing about righty vs lefty that makes one pitch better than the other. What Joseph said - it's just personal to you which one is best.
Hey dan. I am 14 and want to start baseball as a pitcher. Can u make a video on what to do when u start baseball as an older player
there are a lot of basics videos on my channel; search around. I'm planning a video like that but not for a few months at least.
@@DanBlewett ok thank u
Good stuff here. I agree that the typical "get me over" CB won't cut it for long at the high school level. If it is true that it takes 2 years to develop a good CB, and it is also true that this CB won't be good enough at the next level (meaning you will have to develop a slider)...aren't we really saying that we need 4 years to develop a CB that will be a usable pitch at the next level? More practice is better when learning any new skill. But the practice has to be "right" meaning dosing and contextual factors need to be a part of the learning plan. Good discussion by your followers!
no, it's not what I'm saying that it takes 4 years to develop a college-usable CB. Some players just don't have the ability to develop a next level curveball no matter what they do. some of it is innate, just like anything else.
You don't need any 2 years to develop a good curveball. It can be done in about 6 to 7 months. You definitely don't need 4 years to develop that pitch. College age is a good age to develop a slider, though some coaches will introduce it once you can throw 80 mph.
As an umpire, I can confirm that most youth pitchers have horrible curve balls. Basically just a changeup that moves a little. But I've seen a 12 year old throw and locate a curve that was shockingly good. Unbelievable cut with superb accuracy. But that's ONE kid I recall being able to do so after umpiring tons of youth games.
yep. and truly great curveballs are rare - and like you said, you know them when you see them!
"Most" youth pitchers have horrible curveballs? Maybe most that you have seen. There are kids who can throw great curveballs. I have kids who can throw them with 20"+ of forward spin that are great curveballs. The ones you are seeing have not been properly trained to throw them. There are young players who can indeed throw great curveballs, whether they are beginner curveballs or big league curveballs.
@@tootallforbaseball Like said. They exist. But they are super rare. And if you can't locate your fastball, you need to find another position on the team no matter how fast you throw or how good your offspeed is. Location in the first and most important skill to master.
@@MH-Tesla No sir, they are not super rare. I have several who throw great curveballs who are under the age of 12. I am well aware of the need to locate a fastball.
@@tootallforbaseball okay. And I still don't believe you. I've coached and umpired and every team says they have a pitcher who can their "x fast" or has a great "x pitch." But they don't. They live in a bubble. If they ever saw what they think they have they'd maybe start to realize they are only looking at a miniscule sample size and "their pitcher" is great in that sample. But I'm telling you, most pitchers can't throw an effective curve ball outside of it acting like a changeup. Again, not saying they don't exist. I've seen them. But it's like a white elephant. They are rare. If you have one, great. But you're talking maybe 5% at best. The other 95% throwing a curve don't throw it well at all. And when you are a good one.... You know it because it stands out. You think, "something must be wrong here, no way a ball can do that." But it can, thrown by the right pitcher. The first time I saw it I stopped the game and examined the ball. You don't have an Umpire do that if it's common place.
This is interesting. My kid is in 14u now. At 10u and especially 11u I would say 90% of kids throw some type of curve/slider. The only kids that were not are kids with elite speed. 5-10 mph faster then normal. Last year at 13u I would say pitchers are throwing 20 to 30 percent of these pitches. Basically every batter see's one.
I coached 13 and 14U and we didnt see that many curveballs. 90% is not an accurate estimate.
How many hours of work should I put in to be the best baseball player I can be.
up to you to decide
The kids I know who developed arm trouble from throwing too many curveballs were taught to heavily suppinate the pitch. I wonder if that was a factor in ASMI's findings.
probably not. isolating that variable wouldnt be realistic in a study
Most likely, those kids were actually throwing sliders, not curveballs, which are tough on the elbow. Get PitchLogic or a Rapsodo to ensure that the pitch is actually a curveball, not a slider. A slider has a lot of gyrospin, whereas a curveball has forward spin. Gyrospin means you got on the side of the ball, which is tough on the elbow. Staying on the front of the ball is not stressful on the arm.
@@DanBlewett -- I would not recommend a long term study in which supinating the pitch was a parameter, because, as some old, old timers informed me long ago, that was the original slider, and those who utilized it found out that after a period of time their elbows turned to mush.
@@tootallforbaseball -- Yes, supinating the the pitching hand would provide slider action to that pitch, which many youth coaches and youth in general mistakenly confuse for a curveball.
@@cwj9202 A curveball is also a supinated pitch. Turning the wrist or pressure on the side of the ball would result in the gyro spin action I am referring to. A curveball tumbles over the middle finger with a relatively low gyro degree, whereas the slider has a high gyro degree. A curveball has low gyro spin and high spin efficiency, while the slider has a much higher gyro spin rate and low spin efficiency. Many young players have a flat curveball that is really much closer to a slider that is an injury waiting to happen.
Great video. I very much agree with the points that are made especially the subjectivity that comes along with injuries. I have wondered regarding the ASMI research as it pertains to curveballs and athletes reporting more arm pain though, could these troubles be from over use altogether? If we consider that the young athletes who do develop curveballs at early stages and see success are those who take 1,000s of reps more than athletes who haven't necessarily started focus on being a pitcher and are just throwers who pitch whenever coach needs them. Would love to hear your thoughts and if you believe there is an alternative to young athletes who are just stay ahead of the competition by growing their arsenal?
Great point here - you're 100% right that the best way to earn more innings, and thus get overused, is by being good. Bad, unreliable pitchers don't get overused. Have to have coaches that see the longterm picture and not try to use their best kids every time they need a win. I think kids should practice tinkering with other pitches in catch and practice - it improves dexterity and feel for pitching, but I'm pretty firm in my belief that three pitches - fastball, change and one breaking ball - is all a pitcher needs until pro ball.
What do u mean they don't recruit u8,u10,u12 why do people pay 4 travel ball lol
👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
Then theres me who throws my first ever curveball and it breaks 9 inches down and 4 to the left.
BUT IT SPUN WRONG ;D
crying