Back in 1988 I was working at a company in Salinas CA, building up a set of Mustang wings that ended up on Precious Metal for the Reno air races that year. Coming down the start chute for the final race, an engine or prop gov. failure caused him to MAYDAY and Bob Hoover told him to dump it in the dry lake bed since he couldnt make the runway (due to the drag). Seconds later there sat the wings we had worked so hard to finish. Belly landed and crumpled in the desert dirt. Ah.......Memories!
I have my own trucking business. As far as Reno is concerned, I live about a days drive from there. The Budweiser hydroplanes are racing boats (unlimited) One or two of them were Griffon powered. Many of these boats used the Allison, and the Merlin. The big problem with boat racing is how the prop loads, and unloads the engine as it hits, and looses bite in the water. On the Griffon, the shaft driving the supercharger would snap when the engine was reloaded. This is what brought down the RB-51.
This plane is still flying. The plane involved in the accident at Oshkosh was a P-51A that sported a PM paint scheme for the movie Thunder Over Reno. Blue skys Gerry Beck.
Dago Red holds the course record at 507 mph, I was on the field watching when he did the qualifying run. Precious metal was in the hangar during those years, they pulled her out for a quick tease every now and then, but she didn't race for a while. Those two birds and white lightning are my absolute favorites.
They also want to name his rebuilt A model "Gerry's Dream." Having seen his A model at Flying Cloud in 06, it was truly a testament to his hard work and craftsmanship... It is quite amazing how he put that thing together from plans alone. He was an amazing man.
i was there on friday and saturday. I saw you guys doing warm up laps and as far as mustangs go yours is the absolute best. looking and sounding. nothing beats a good griffin and a contra prop.
Yep, that is what I am referring to. He was talking to myself and some fellow CAF-MN guys at the Flying Cloud Airshow in 06 and he wanted to set it up so as a kit meaning that a certain percentage of the plane was prefabbed (I think it is 50% but don't quote me on that.) The rest would be shipped in pieces for the builder to put together. Basically what you were talking about with the Fw190s. His wife (post-Oshkosh) did say that they do plan on continuing this idea.
@poptartpencil it's actually fairly simple pop, picture two prop shafts, one inside the other. now picture that before the shafts reach the props there are three gears, one being turned by the inner crankshaft. the second being turned by the previous one and the third attached dirctly to the outer shaft being spun by the second. this is essentially how counter rotating props work.
The video; "Steve Hinton World Air Speed Record Attempt 1979-Red Baron"; shows a relatively stock wing, but clipped. The aircraft is being towed from the hangar on the record setting day. (film shot from the roof looking down) The P-51D was modified in 1966 and I believe the Griffon was installed in 1974 when it was named the Red Baron. The Baron was completely destroyed during the 1979 Reno air races. Perhaps the supercharger failure (common for Griffons)of the Baron holds back Precious Metal.
hi all, i'm a former crew member and thought i'd post to give you a little insight into the airplane. first of all, this particualr mustang was never used in combat or even put into service, the center fuselage section was made especially for the movies and was later built up as the racer in the video. better than seeing it turned into razor blades wouldn't you say frownieface? secondly, as with most warbirds, yes if you add power to quickly it could snap roll, hence why we don't.
Yea, there's a video called "reno air race flyby" that shows the Red Barron in its later days as "Miss Ashley II", the video is in the related vids. There you can get a view of it, but it goes sorta low so its swept wings are harder to see.
I think the aircraft you're talking about was another "Precious Metal", which used to be located at the Fargo, ND air museum. It can be distinguished from the one in this video by the absence of a contra-rotating propeller system, and an early P-51B canopy.. Other than that, it has the same paintjob and the amazing spirit of the P-51; a true plane that will never be forgotten. Correct me if I'm wrong.
There used to be a red P51 with the counter rotating props in miami back in the early 80s. This setup allows you to use smaller diameter props.....or thinner blades.......or put more of the engine's torque for the simple reason of having more surface area to deal with. The downside is that you also have more drag since you are pushing more blade.
Sorry about the -1! Yes, that would be an issue. perhaps a small inlet up front behind the props. At speed, the airflow needed over a charge air cooler would not be a lot to get the job done, especially if the turbos were exposed enough to keep them "cool", say under 600 Degrees on the pyrometers. Turbos hidden by cowl would likely melt internally if kept from getting enough airflow. (they have been known to melt in semi trucks with similar boost settings)
@chubsmagoo it holds about 100 gallons of fuel, and to take off, form up, race, cool down and land it'll use almost all of it. not sure what cruise gph is. wings have been clipped about 5 feet, give or take a few inches.
Correct, the plane that crashed at Oshkosh was not the true Precious Metal. Gerry Beck made a P-51A "Kit" plane and had it painted to resemble the paint scheme of this plane for a movie called Thunder Over Reno. The only likeness between the two is the neon green wings. Gerry Beck was an amazing man and it is sad that he is gone.
I own and operate my own truck. Go all over North America. I even have what you would call "roo bars" (a moose stopper bumper) on the truck. Right now, I am in the Dallas, Tx. area. I would not have time, or be logistically available to work on one of these. I do fiddle around with old Muscle cars; have had or done interesting things to engines. Squeeze more power, lubricate better, etc. Those old engines were a wonder for their time, but real junk by today's standards.
Thats what the setup looks like, just to fit a p-51 frame. It would be great to see this plane in the gold, but the Red Barron was more modified, since it had the swept back wings, making it faster than Precious Metal. Although Precious Metal is still one unique and beautiful machine that is like the Red Barron's descendant, making a record a possibility!
I didn't believe the RB-51 was rebuilt. The combination does seem to be an interesting way to go, with the Barons' speed record. I would explore some of the Budweiser hydroplane Griffon modifications if I was racing this setup. The oiling modification probably promotes better bearing lubrication, the supercharger shaft could drive another oil pump for the prop/gearbox, and the twin turbos could not snap off that pesky drive. The aircraft would look strange with headers on it though!
I believe Gerry's hard work has laid the foundation for a production run of P-51A models-which is what I think you are referring to as kits. Or, is this similar to the FlugWerk Fw190 "kits", which allow lower insurance through owner final-assembly? Gerry's loss was sad, but I'm glad that his aircraft will be rebuilt. I believe I've read that the A-model production will continue at his shop.
partially correct, it does cut down a great deal on torque, known as "p factor". but it doesn't enhance maneuverability. the main purpose is to cut down the length of the prop to keep them from going supersonic.
@vendetta81 Quite a few cooling problems with the Griffon engines, are there not? How did you get around that? And do they tune the engines for the Reno?
also, this mustang doesn't have anywhere near 4,000 hp. 2,700 was about as much as we ever used, the goal was never to win the gold but to go out and have fun. however, angryace you are right that alot of hp would be hard on the blower, in fact we had one year out of the 4 or 5 we raced where we didn't have major issues with the engine. although i know that ron does (or atleast did) have a very special engine with very special components for just that reason.
@MayoDK nah, she cooled fine. we never got to a point in the program where the engine needed anything special to prepare for the races. the fastest lap ron ever turned in her was 410 mph.
Nice question vendetta81! Perhaps an engineer could correct me if I'm wrong (since I'm just a pilot myself), but my belief is that since torque is a vector quantity (ie direction matters), if both props swing in opposite directions at the same speed then the combined torque is completely cancelled, ie net torque = 0. Performance - difficult question! As you alluded to, side effects are reduced. In addition, slip stream effect is reduced. However there is a weight & complexity penalty.
@vendetta81 That is true... however I remember reading about Spitfire pilots saying they loved the contra prop for the absence of torque. But, like you said, the Griffon is big, and may still try to "twist things around"
@purple748 that's cool. that's cool as hell. It looks like something straight out of fiction. Here's hoping Thom Richard takes the checkered flag when Reno reconvenes next year!
i thought i would add somthing, the one reason this airplane has the counter rotating props, is primarilly for control, the stock p51 mustang without the cut wingspan and stock rolls royce packard merlin v1650 v12, with just 1,695hp, some of the reno racers with them suped up make about 3,000hp and still dont have counter rotating props, and this doesent look like it has the standard 1650cubic inch v12, it looks like the griffon which was closer to 2,000cubic inches, thats about 4,000hp
Correct, this plane wasn't a kit, which is why I put it in quotations. Gerry actually had intentions of making a 1/1 scale kit from this plane though. There are plans for his A model to be restored, but only time will tell...
I was in Reno for the races when a P-51 flown by Mr. Levits came apart and killed him. I never found out what happened, would you know? It too had a Griffon with counter rotating props.
@vendetta81 What is the advantage of counter-rotating props. R.I.P. Miss Ashley II, I was about 12 when I saw that race. Still never could get over that. There have been quite a few crashes recently too, it's hard to see that.
@1bearcatf8f if you'd bothered to read the comment i posted you'd know that the fuselage of this airplane was never even accepted into military service, much less flew as a stock mustang. this airplane was built as you see it in the video. i have worked in museums, for private collectors, on racers and stock warbirds and i can tell you that an airplane that flies regularly, i.e. a racer (generally speaking) is much easier to maintain because it is doing what it was designed to do, fly.
@AmericanAviator It's actually a pretty straightforward system (despite the visual shock and the accompanying idea of one excessively violent mechanical thing spinning in opposition to another). I...think...Don Whittington did the mod and that would have been back in the mid 70's. Forty years of service says a lot about reliability to me!
@jesknow the advantage is that you get more thrust per engine than you would with a single screw, making better use of the hp the engine produces. the disadvantage is that it's heavy and complicated.
@jtully79 ...although I used to be an A&P, I'm not an engineer...BUT...I understand it to be more of an issue of practicality (vs outright performance). The Tu-95 puts out about 12,000hp (9000kw) per engine. I DO understand the principle of cleaning up vortexes behind the leading prop but I think the bigger issue was the idea that you would need a 25' prop! ..remember the Connie?
@ibbiggs think of it like this biggs, if you had twin engines you would have twice the thrust but also twice the weight right? having a counter rotating eliminates the weight of the second engine, and while you'll never get twice the thrust as with a twin (the rear set negates the forward set three times every revolution) it's still a marked improvement over single prop designs. i was near the home pylon, didn't see it come apart but i remember it not flying right.
No it wasn't. That was a new-build Allison-engine P-51A replica painted to resemble "Precious Metal" for a straight-to-video movie called "Thunder Over Reno." The accident was at Oshkosh a couple of years ago.
Awesome sound! Is this setup out of a Shackleton? When will this aircraft meet its full potential and race in the gold like the Red Barron? Perhaps set a new speed record...
It's a Griffon from a Shackleton, a Griffon 57A I would say...veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery nice sounding aircraft...could go even faster by clipping another 3 feet from it's wings!!!
I had not paid much attention to the diffences it the wings, haven't seen many pictures from a good angle for this. I wonder if the Red Baron had a set of Duane Egli's custom made wings? The era would be correct. I didn't look at the radiator housing to see if that was Duane's design either. I believe the contras were also used in a few late Spitfires, Seafires, as well as the Spiteful, and Searfang.
Perhaps, but the Budweiser hydro team set up twin turbos on their Griffon powered boat. I was looking at the performance capability, a Griffon will ingest much more air than an Allison. The large turbo would have to be twice the size to achieve the needed boost. I would run two systems, one on each side to reduce plumbing issues. Smaller turbos respond faster, and are more practacal. Yes, it is likely a Griffon 58.
I would leave the headers exposed, as well as the turbos for cooling purposes. Where would one install the air to air aftercooler? Sorry if I bumped the ratings trigger, it is possable that I gave you a bad rating accidentally.
Oh sorry Chopin 742, I replied to your question thinking it was from Vendetta81. Please read the reply with first line "Nice question Vendette81" and see if you have any other questions.
The Mustang could go damn near supersonic as it was (WW2 pilots putting their planes into powered dives found this out the hard way). I imagine you couldn't make them go much faster or they'd easily break the sound barrier.
the "mouse" engine was the type of merlin racing engine that dwight thorne (rip) built up. many have tried but none have made a merlin quite as high in MAP as reliably (still marginal at best).
Ok, here's one for the experts: What's a "Mouse" engine? I assume it's a racing Merlin that's been lightened. Dwight Thorne and Dago Red feature in the story but what's the story?
Ripslinger from the new movie "Planes" is based on this engineering piece of art. Can you blame the producers for choosing this plane to be in the movie?
Hmmm ... nearly there! 'p factor' = asymmetric thrust in a climb (or descent), as a result of an upgoing propellor blade having a different angle of attack than a downgoing blade. Therefore contrarotating props will reduce 'p factor' as there will be some blades going up and some going down on both sides of the plane. However 'p factor' is NOT the same as torque, which is a rotational force applied through the propellor-shaft by the engine. Contra props reduce both effects, AND tip speed!
But that is quite slow for reno admittedly, and the Griffon is quite powerful, suits the aircraft well...strange, I was expecting something like 430 mph at least. Thank you for informing me!!! :-)
I am not sure what a screamer pipe is. I believe these fighter engines have lubrication issues. On the Ford 351 Cleveland, (automobile engine used in the Mustang Mach-I muscle car, etc) new oil galleys can be drilled , others being plugged, greatly improving lubrication. Metallurgy is also likely an issue. Perhaps some modifications would make the unlimiteds safer and more reliable. Perhaps someone important is reading these discussions.
@purple748 dago red is hardly a mustang it is so heavily modified. Precious metal does not looke like too much has been done to the radiator, wings or canopy. Theoretically a contra rotating prop should have a slight advantage with respect to top speed... that is why the Tu-95 Bear has them. The Tu-95 can fly routinely at around 550mph
@majfunkmeister I can find out how much HP its got but I cannot make it public . Ive been threatend with the penalty of death if I leak any secret race info. However I can say this. The engine has been completely gone through. The supercharger was sent off to get refurbished. There were some safety items added. Ground run was good. Has a few test flights with ZERO discrepancies. She will likely go faster this year than ever before.
it has the counter rotating prop 'cause it has a RR Griffon engine....... all griffons come w the counter rotating prop gear case........probably got the engine frm a Shackleton . they had 4 of them....
@jesknow Although it pains me to say this (I think Precious Metal is one THE most beautiful airplanes to grace the skies) the counter (contra) rotating prop was not such a great idea (for THIS application). I think the max Precious Metal has gone is around 440. By comparison; Dago Red has done about 540 (unofficial) and 520 (official) with a single. I know some guy said he liked it (don't want to step on toes here) but I think the beercan exhaust is CHEESY!
Back in 1988 I was working at a company in Salinas CA, building up a set of Mustang wings that ended up on Precious Metal for the Reno air races that year. Coming down the start chute for the final race, an engine or prop gov. failure caused him to MAYDAY and Bob Hoover told him to dump it in the dry lake bed since he couldnt make the runway (due to the drag). Seconds later there sat the wings we had worked so hard to finish. Belly landed and crumpled in the desert dirt. Ah.......Memories!
I'm so sorry for your loss. He was a great pilot.
Indeed, he was a great asset to the warbird community, an amazing man and he will definitely be missed.
I have my own trucking business. As far as Reno is concerned, I live about a days drive from there. The Budweiser hydroplanes are racing boats (unlimited) One or two of them were Griffon powered. Many of these boats used the Allison, and the Merlin. The big problem with boat racing is how the prop loads, and unloads the engine as it hits, and looses bite in the water. On the Griffon, the shaft driving the supercharger would snap when the engine was reloaded. This is what brought down the RB-51.
That sound never gets old. :)
OMG sounds like something out of Star Wars as it goes by. What an amazing machine
That sound never gets old
This plane is still flying. The plane involved in the accident at Oshkosh was a P-51A that sported a PM paint scheme for the movie Thunder Over Reno. Blue skys Gerry Beck.
why the hell do they have to sound so gorgeous? It makes me want one!
Dago Red holds the course record at 507 mph, I was on the field watching when he did the qualifying run. Precious metal was in the hangar during those years, they pulled her out for a quick tease every now and then, but she didn't race for a while. Those two birds and white lightning are my absolute favorites.
They also want to name his rebuilt A model "Gerry's Dream." Having seen his A model at Flying Cloud in 06, it was truly a testament to his hard work and craftsmanship... It is quite amazing how he put that thing together from plans alone. He was an amazing man.
you gotta love the counter rotating blade :)
i was there on friday and saturday. I saw you guys doing warm up laps and as far as mustangs go
yours is the absolute best. looking and sounding.
nothing beats a good griffin and a contra prop.
Yep, that is what I am referring to. He was talking to myself and some fellow CAF-MN guys at the Flying Cloud Airshow in 06 and he wanted to set it up so as a kit meaning that a certain percentage of the plane was prefabbed (I think it is 50% but don't quote me on that.) The rest would be shipped in pieces for the builder to put together. Basically what you were talking about with the Fw190s. His wife (post-Oshkosh) did say that they do plan on continuing this idea.
@poptartpencil it's actually fairly simple pop, picture two prop shafts, one inside the other. now picture that before the shafts reach the props there are three gears, one being turned by the inner crankshaft. the second being turned by the previous one and the third attached dirctly to the outer shaft being spun by the second. this is essentially how counter rotating props work.
The video; "Steve Hinton World Air Speed Record Attempt 1979-Red Baron"; shows a relatively stock wing, but clipped. The aircraft is being towed from the hangar on the record setting day. (film shot from the roof looking down) The P-51D was modified in 1966 and I believe the Griffon was installed in 1974 when it was named the Red Baron. The Baron was completely destroyed during the 1979 Reno air races. Perhaps the supercharger failure (common for Griffons)of the Baron holds back Precious Metal.
hi all, i'm a former crew member and thought i'd post to give you a little insight into the airplane.
first of all, this particualr mustang was never used in combat or even put into service, the center fuselage section was made especially for the movies and was later built up as the racer in the video. better than seeing it turned into razor blades wouldn't you say frownieface?
secondly, as with most warbirds, yes if you add power to quickly it could snap roll, hence why we don't.
Yea, there's a video called "reno air race flyby" that shows the Red Barron in its later days as "Miss Ashley II", the video is in the related vids. There you can get a view of it, but it goes sorta low so its swept wings are harder to see.
This aircraft shared hangar space with my fathers airplane at Lakeland Linder airport.
Cool counter rotating blades. Thanks for sharing.
@shortribs11 That was my father, Gary Levitz. The entire tail section of aircraft disintegrated as he rounded a pylon.
I think the aircraft you're talking about was another "Precious Metal", which used to be located at the Fargo, ND air museum. It can be distinguished from the one in this video by the absence of a contra-rotating propeller system, and an early P-51B canopy..
Other than that, it has the same paintjob and the amazing spirit of the P-51; a true plane that will never be forgotten.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
There used to be a red P51 with the counter rotating props in miami back in the early 80s.
This setup allows you to use smaller diameter props.....or thinner blades.......or put more of the engine's torque for the simple reason of having more surface area to deal with.
The downside is that you also have more drag since you are pushing more blade.
This must be the best sound in the world!
love that griffon sound - v much like a radial
Sorry about the -1! Yes, that would be an issue. perhaps a small inlet up front behind the props. At speed, the airflow needed over a charge air cooler would not be a lot to get the job done, especially if the turbos were exposed enough to keep them "cool", say under 600 Degrees on the pyrometers. Turbos hidden by cowl would likely melt internally if kept from getting enough airflow. (they have been known to melt in semi trucks with similar boost settings)
@chubsmagoo it holds about 100 gallons of fuel, and to take off, form up, race, cool down and land it'll use almost all of it. not sure what cruise gph is. wings have been clipped about 5 feet, give or take a few inches.
Correct, the plane that crashed at Oshkosh was not the true Precious Metal. Gerry Beck made a P-51A "Kit" plane and had it painted to resemble the paint scheme of this plane for a movie called Thunder Over Reno. The only likeness between the two is the neon green wings. Gerry Beck was an amazing man and it is sad that he is gone.
That's it.....it was the red baron.
It was almost like the wild west out there back then.
Got away with a lot of crazy flying.
I own and operate my own truck. Go all over North America. I even have what you would call "roo bars" (a moose stopper bumper) on the truck. Right now, I am in the Dallas, Tx. area. I would not have time, or be logistically available to work on one of these. I do fiddle around with old Muscle cars; have had or done interesting things to engines. Squeeze more power, lubricate better, etc. Those old engines were a wonder for their time, but real junk by today's standards.
Thats what the setup looks like, just to fit a p-51 frame. It would be great to see this plane in the gold, but the Red Barron was more modified, since it had the swept back wings, making it faster than Precious Metal. Although Precious Metal is still one unique and beautiful machine that is like the Red Barron's descendant, making a record a possibility!
I didn't believe the RB-51 was rebuilt. The combination does seem to be an interesting way to go, with the Barons' speed record. I would explore some of the Budweiser hydroplane Griffon modifications if I was racing this setup. The oiling modification probably promotes better bearing lubrication, the supercharger shaft could drive another oil pump for the prop/gearbox, and the twin turbos could not snap off that pesky drive. The aircraft would look strange with headers on it though!
@purple748 Yeah, the sound of the contra props is sooooooooo nice! Dago Red, Strega, Voodoo, then Precious Metal are my favorites in order.
I believe Gerry's hard work has laid the foundation for a production run of P-51A models-which is what I think you are referring to as kits. Or, is this similar to the FlugWerk Fw190 "kits", which allow lower insurance through owner final-assembly? Gerry's loss was sad, but I'm glad that his aircraft will be rebuilt. I believe I've read that the A-model production will continue at his shop.
partially correct, it does cut down a great deal on torque, known as "p factor". but it doesn't enhance maneuverability. the main purpose is to cut down the length of the prop to keep them from going supersonic.
Only one man alive can fly that bird. Ron Buccarelli. On the edge.
@vendetta81
Quite a few cooling problems with the Griffon engines, are there not?
How did you get around that? And do they tune the engines for the Reno?
@jaybee641 actually, counter rotating props have been around since the late '20's
also, this mustang doesn't have anywhere near 4,000 hp. 2,700 was about as much as we ever used, the goal was never to win the gold but to go out and have fun.
however, angryace you are right that alot of hp would be hard on the blower, in fact we had one year out of the 4 or 5 we raced where we didn't have major issues with the engine. although i know that ron does (or atleast did) have a very special engine with very special components for just that reason.
@MayoDK nah, she cooled fine. we never got to a point in the program where the engine needed anything special to prepare for the races. the fastest lap ron ever turned in her was 410 mph.
Nice question vendetta81!
Perhaps an engineer could correct me if I'm wrong (since I'm just a pilot myself), but my belief is that since torque is a vector quantity (ie direction matters), if both props swing in opposite directions at the same speed then the combined torque is completely cancelled, ie net torque = 0.
Performance - difficult question! As you alluded to, side effects are reduced. In addition, slip stream effect is reduced. However there is a weight & complexity penalty.
@vendetta81 That is true... however I remember reading about Spitfire pilots saying they loved the contra prop for the absence of torque.
But, like you said, the Griffon is big, and may still try to "twist things around"
@purple748 that's cool. that's cool as hell. It looks like something straight out of fiction. Here's hoping Thom Richard takes the checkered flag when Reno reconvenes next year!
i thought i would add somthing, the one reason this airplane has the counter rotating props, is primarilly for control, the stock p51 mustang without the cut wingspan and stock rolls royce packard merlin v1650 v12, with just 1,695hp, some of the reno racers with them suped up make about 3,000hp and still dont have counter rotating props, and this doesent look like it has the standard 1650cubic inch v12, it looks like the griffon which was closer to 2,000cubic inches, thats about 4,000hp
Correct, this plane wasn't a kit, which is why I put it in quotations. Gerry actually had intentions of making a 1/1 scale kit from this plane though. There are plans for his A model to be restored, but only time will tell...
I was in Reno for the races when a P-51 flown by Mr. Levits came apart and killed him. I never found out what happened, would you know? It too had a Griffon with counter rotating props.
@vendetta81 What is the advantage of counter-rotating props. R.I.P. Miss Ashley II, I was about 12 when I saw that race. Still never could get over that. There have been quite a few crashes recently too, it's hard to see that.
@1bearcatf8f if you'd bothered to read the comment i posted you'd know that the fuselage of this airplane was never even accepted into military service, much less flew as a stock mustang. this airplane was built as you see it in the video. i have worked in museums, for private collectors, on racers and stock warbirds and i can tell you that an airplane that flies regularly, i.e. a racer (generally speaking) is much easier to maintain because it is doing what it was designed to do, fly.
@AmericanAviator It's actually a pretty straightforward system (despite the visual shock and the accompanying idea of one excessively violent mechanical thing spinning in opposition to another). I...think...Don Whittington did the mod and that would have been back in the mid 70's. Forty years of service says a lot about reliability to me!
@jesknow the advantage is that you get more thrust per engine than you would with a single screw, making better use of the hp the engine produces. the disadvantage is that it's heavy and complicated.
wow it must be so nice to fly that plane.. no left turning tendency due to the torque.
counter-rotating propellers cancels it out.
@jtully79 ...although I used to be an A&P, I'm not an engineer...BUT...I understand it to be more of an issue of practicality (vs outright performance). The Tu-95 puts out about 12,000hp (9000kw) per engine. I DO understand the principle of cleaning up vortexes behind the leading prop but I think the bigger issue was the idea that you would need a 25' prop! ..remember the Connie?
@ibbiggs think of it like this biggs, if you had twin engines you would have twice the thrust but also twice the weight right? having a counter rotating eliminates the weight of the second engine, and while you'll never get twice the thrust as with a twin (the rear set negates the forward set three times every revolution) it's still a marked improvement over single prop designs.
i was near the home pylon, didn't see it come apart but i remember it not flying right.
No it wasn't. That was a new-build Allison-engine P-51A replica painted to resemble "Precious Metal" for a straight-to-video movie called "Thunder Over Reno." The accident was at Oshkosh a couple of years ago.
@canals22 because the engine itself is still producing torque. it's less likely that it would but not something that anyone would like to prove.
Awesome sound! Is this setup out of a Shackleton? When will this aircraft meet its full potential and race in the gold like the Red Barron? Perhaps set a new speed record...
It's a Griffon from a Shackleton, a Griffon 57A I would say...veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery nice sounding aircraft...could go even faster by clipping another 3 feet from it's wings!!!
I had not paid much attention to the diffences it the wings, haven't seen many pictures from a good angle for this. I wonder if the Red Baron had a set of Duane Egli's custom made wings? The era would be correct. I didn't look at the radiator housing to see if that was Duane's design either. I believe the contras were also used in a few late Spitfires, Seafires, as well as the Spiteful, and Searfang.
Perhaps, but the Budweiser hydro team set up twin turbos on their Griffon powered boat. I was looking at the performance capability, a Griffon will ingest much more air than an Allison. The large turbo would have to be twice the size to achieve the needed boost. I would run two systems, one on each side to reduce plumbing issues. Smaller turbos respond faster, and are more practacal. Yes, it is likely a Griffon 58.
R.I.P
I would leave the headers exposed, as well as the turbos for cooling purposes. Where would one install the air to air aftercooler? Sorry if I bumped the ratings trigger, it is possable that I gave you a bad rating accidentally.
The best race speed I could find over the years was 407mph...410mph qualifying lap in 2007.
Precious Metal got 3rd in 2012 with 463mph. 471mph being the fastest lap.
Hell Yeaaaaaahhh!!
@vendetta81 How you going to snap roll with contraprops where torque is near cero ?
i wish i knew how those propellers work been trying to figure out for years
Oh sorry Chopin 742, I replied to your question thinking it was from Vendetta81.
Please read the reply with first line "Nice question Vendette81" and see if you have any other questions.
The Mustang could go damn near supersonic as it was (WW2 pilots putting their planes into powered dives found this out the hard way). I imagine you couldn't make them go much faster or they'd easily break the sound barrier.
the "mouse" engine was the type of merlin racing engine that dwight thorne (rip) built up. many have tried but none have made a merlin quite as high in MAP as reliably (still marginal at best).
@vendetta81 it has contra rotating propellers... the torque is balanced in both directions... how could it snap roll?
Incorrect. The rear prop is on an epicyclic gear to make it spin reverse of the crankshaft. Both props rotate at the same speed.
Any advantages/disadvantages of the counter-rotators?
@vendetta81 How much of a pain in the rear is that counter-rotating assembly on Precious Metal?
Ok, here's one for the experts: What's a "Mouse" engine? I assume it's a racing Merlin that's been lightened. Dwight Thorne and Dago Red feature in the story but what's the story?
lol look at those exhaust caps XD
Ripslinger from the new movie "Planes" is based on this engineering piece of art.
Can you blame the producers for choosing this plane to be in the movie?
I wonder how good that duel prop works, is it better than a conventional prop?
the galloping ghost didn't had a standard (though modified) merlin and hamilton standard prop.
wow!!!!!
Hmmm ... nearly there!
'p factor' = asymmetric thrust in a climb (or descent), as a result of an upgoing propellor blade having a different angle of attack than a downgoing blade. Therefore contrarotating props will reduce 'p factor' as there will be some blades going up and some going down on both sides of the plane.
However 'p factor' is NOT the same as torque, which is a rotational force applied through the propellor-shaft by the engine.
Contra props reduce both effects, AND tip speed!
But that is quite slow for reno admittedly, and the Griffon is quite powerful, suits the aircraft well...strange, I was expecting something like 430 mph at least. Thank you for informing me!!! :-)
The pilot said he can do 500mph any time he wants to.
I am not sure what a screamer pipe is. I believe these fighter engines have lubrication issues. On the Ford 351 Cleveland, (automobile engine used in the Mustang Mach-I muscle car, etc) new oil galleys can be drilled , others being plugged, greatly improving lubrication. Metallurgy is also likely an issue. Perhaps some modifications would make the unlimiteds safer and more reliable. Perhaps someone important is reading these discussions.
Except that it wasn't a "kit" plane. It was a P-51A made by Gerry from the original North American drawings.
and that was the primary reason it was placed on the spitfire? am i correct?
@purple748 dago red is hardly a mustang it is so heavily modified. Precious metal does not looke like too much has been done to the radiator, wings or canopy. Theoretically a contra rotating prop should have a slight advantage with respect to top speed... that is why the Tu-95 Bear has them. The Tu-95 can fly routinely at around 550mph
@majfunkmeister I can find out how much HP its got but I cannot make it public . Ive been threatend with the penalty of death if I leak any secret race info. However I can say this. The engine has been completely gone through. The supercharger was sent off to get refurbished. There were some safety items added. Ground run was good. Has a few test flights with ZERO discrepancies. She will likely go faster this year than ever before.
it has the counter rotating prop 'cause it has a RR Griffon engine....... all griffons come w the counter rotating prop gear case........probably got the engine frm a Shackleton . they had 4 of them....
@majfunkmeister about 2700 hp stock, who knows this year : )
That's about as close you're gonna get to a Martin Baker Mb5
You bet!
thats one hella modded p-51 nice but thats almost to the point of not being a p-51 with the small cockpit and duel props
How many mph does it do? If anyone knows inform me please...
didn't red barron have the speed record in the 70's before it crashed?. griffon powered counter rotating
@ak4570 OH GOD that sounds beautiful!!!
I know that... usually you end up with a blown engine or something like that... :-)
sure did, hit 499 mph i believe, could of gone faster had the weather been more ideal.
Yes, but then why did he do a maximum of only 410 mph over so many years?? :-)
That's because its powered by a Rolls Royce Griffon V12
@JefSennaF9 we limited our hp output to 2700
@jesknow Although it pains me to say this (I think Precious Metal is one THE most beautiful airplanes to grace the skies) the counter (contra) rotating prop was not such a great idea (for THIS application). I think the max Precious Metal has gone is around 440. By comparison; Dago Red has done about 540 (unofficial) and 520 (official) with a single. I know some guy said he liked it (don't want to step on toes here) but I think the beercan exhaust is CHEESY!