Awesome interview as always, I have great respect for Andy Clark. I have two people in mind who could be great to listen to as future guests: 1. Mark Solms - Neuroscientist, has his own book on consciousness with references to Damasio, Friston and Chalmers, and is very much into the FEP. He also had a recent "debate" with Lisa Feldman-Barrett that is on TH-cam and was very interesting to hear what they agree and disagree on. Also known for his idea of "neuropsychoanalysis". 2. Grace Lindsay - Computational Neuroscientist and author of "Models of the Mind: How Physics, Engineering and Mathematics Have Shaped Our Understanding of the Brain". She is mainly focused on using neural networks as models of the brain. I have no idea if they would be interested and I don't even know if Sean Carroll reads any of these comments, but I just wanted to throw it out there since I think both have very interesting work and ideas related to what's usually discussed in the podcast. Give a thumbs up if you would like to see them, I guess?
This conversation was like listening to two seasoned jazz musicians extemporize and delight. Looks like I will be adding another book to my extended mind.
I was experiencing a motorcycle accident that caused me and the bike to be laid over on our side, while sliding forward. I was pretty satisfied that I was not being injured by this situation, and expected to ride the bike, in this position, until it slid to a stop. In an apparent instant, I got sensory information about the up side of my helmet slamming onto the pavement, followed, very quickly by the experience of my trunk organs sloshing sideways in the immediately previous direction of up, but slamming onto the pavement. Quickly, I realized that I was no longer seated on the bike, but it was above me, in the direction of the sky (which an instant ago was the direction of the pavement). Given that I had not predicted these events, the process that got me from holding onto the bike, with one side down, to this new situation, with my other side slammed down, and separated from the bike, vertically was completely missing from my recollection. That transition was missing from my perception of the passage of time. It took me quite a while to reconstruct what must have happened to cause this transition, even though I did not seem to have been there, when it all happened.
29:41 Just to add another benefit of the brain using prediction, is the energy efficiency because the brain already uses 20% of the total body calorie budget in adults, yet it only weighs 3 lb. If our brains instead was using a cognitive response to physical reality it would require much more energy as well as time.
Neurons in my brain interpreted this video and moved me towards clicking it long before I became consciously aware of it. Then I non-consciously went back and convinced myself that I consciously recognized a favorite channel of mine, and then consciously chose to watch it. Meanwhile my non-conscious mind is laughing at how swiftly & thoroughly I fool myself. But I don't mind since I'm not aware of it.
Half truths are beautiful, art 🎨 proofing.... Is there that truth outside the cavern of the Republic? You may believe it. It's called faith. Among other predicates. ™️🐰
The mind equation The more we think we have agencies to the actions the body takes, the more we imposes agencies to the activities in our environment. The ownership expands into other objects. The illusion of body ownership comes from the modeling of the motor neurones pattern from the childhood. The self just predicts the bodies behaviours in the real world with its simulation of the real world. Multiple sensor data unify in language in the simulation. Intelligence is economy of metabolism. Language is temporal reference frame of economics. Self is simulation in language on metabolism for economy. Longer context windows create generalisation. Shorter creates specificity. Longer context window needs more computing. Self is the protagonist creates a storyline in this context window. Theory of mind evolved so that an entity can learn from it’s peers. It’s creates a possibility for parallel computing. Then it creates the possibility of transmitting the highlights of a generational lessons into a metaphorical story for upcoming child. That creates the possibility of modeling the physical world as a macro organism. Creation of fiat currency was the singularity of this species. There is now one macro organism in a connected web world. Loosing the peer of the macro organism creates the possibility of loosing it’s objective function. That creates the possibility of loosing the theory of mind of this macro organism. That creates the possibility of death of this macro organism by reaching the planetary boundary. That is post singularity. Every action we do, we do what is expect from ours tribe. Body might have a opinion, but not the cell. They do what is expected from its tribe. If it doesn’t we call it cancer. The body is a mirror system of the macro organism. Each system have two transactional openings. Serial and parallel. Each cell within the body can transact material or information serially by genetic determinism and parallel non deterministic way. Similarly eact body with in the macro organism can transact serially by inherit material and information in a deterministic manner and parallelly through language in the society. Everything emerges from this systems. Every sensor is a range calculator of contexts. Taste > touch > smell Immediate and visceral. Vision > hearing Not immediate, tactical. Self > language Abstract, strategical. In this non deterministic economic transaction space the individual is coded to transact with its kin. From the macro perspective tribe formation minimises economic risk for the tribes. Each and every node of these systems organise and mark their kin’s with identifier. Thus, i am what you make of me. And others too. For short cut i have a legal name, so you have. My legal name gives the legitimacy marker so that you can transact with me parallelly if you have the same marker. The self is a simulation in language. It negotiates between the physical world and the information world. All these negotiations are the temporal memories in the body and scene of the story. Now, when we started writing we iconised the abstract in the physical world to make symbols for the tribes. So that under that common symbol every node will take the same risk and distribute equally. We created more and more symbols and more and more meta tribes within the tribes so that who has the authority to use the pen control the tribe. When the negotiator act like an executioner then it’s a downfall of that system. It falls apart. Objective reality > legitimacy > individual behaviours. Survival of the species is dependent on the decoding of the objective reality. Since no species can access it, they use their sensors and interpret the small data which is useful for the survival. Few complex species have created communication channels to rectify their sensory limitations to survive. Homo sapiens has widened their communication channels for faster throughput and started storing them as culture and carrying them through education. As a result we have created social truth. Factual datas are the useful snapshot of the objective reality, a totem, a physical object can be observed with the sensors. Truth is an individual subject, an interpretation of the sensory data, a useful compromise. The social truth is the useful compromise for the group by the group. The goal of the social truth is to survive as a group. Physical Transcriptions of these social truth legitimise them. We are tribal animal. We live in as a physical tribes and inside of hundreds of meta tribes in simulation which is the socio political data space we call it as the world. Since we can’t access the objective reality reliably we look for social truth as the best guess blindly. Institutions legitimise truths. Fact driven institutions are more useful in the survival of the specie. In other hand opinion driven institutions are not so useful for the species. We do what we can get away with and exactly as expected within the context of our meta tribes. We have two bodies The biological one is like looking the earth from space. And the political body is like the state. The name you carry is the political body. It transacts with the political states on the boundary less earth. From the evolutionary perspective every biological entity has a basic feature which is homeostasis. It’s the functioning sweet spot of that entity. A control center read the sensory data to regulate itself to that state. By doing so it’s validate or update it’s prediction model. In the process of becoming a complex organism it developed an extra layer of processing. That’s our conscious mind. And the control center remains as subconscious. The subconscious collect the sensory data and regulate itself to stay functional. Now when it stumble upon a novel environment it float the management to conscious mind to find the solution for homeostasis. This conscious mind have one sensor which is language. It works like a spiderweb. As a spider creates it’s web it’s perception gets expand. We are like spiders in a jungle. We started creating these small webs at least 2/3 million years ago. Our offspring stayed on it’s ancestral web reinforced it expanded it. In time nearby webs became larger and connected with each other. A common structural geometrical pattern emerges from this. This became the symbols which is the backbone of all language systems. In time the forest becomes the mesh of web. The superstructure is exactly the same but when we zoom in we can find different species of spiders are making their type of webs in between the super web. Each spider try to senses the vibration of flies and Try to catch it before others. Every movement is telegraphic in the zone. Every form of perceptions are just a different pitch of note traveling back and forth in the web superstructure. There is a echo of older vibration pulsating through the web. Full of noise and self repeating hum. That’s cultural history. In the background there is the base hum in the infinite feedback loop. Insignificant but ever present. The sum of all the vibrations from the start.
1:03:44 Packaging of honest placebo and branding matter, hence Zeebo® Effect, published in Nature and Journal for Pain. The free ebook The Placebo Cure - and Other Mind Body Effects covers it in more detail.
I feel like "I" am in my head. Not the center of my body. I suspect that is because my eyes and ears are located there. I wonder if people who are both blind and death feel like they are centered in their head as I do. I suspect they are still pre-wired to feel that way.
good question. i like to get into arguments about colour - colour only exists inside people's heads, the universe is a grey scale. the really odd thing is sound doesn't exist anywhere, not even inside your head, "noise" is a total simulation.
ANDY CLARK has kindly in 58:40 referred to Rosalyn J Moran work at UCL that compares reward driven learners and prediction driven ones, could anyone please provide a link as I couldn't find it? My deepest gratitude 🙏🏻
My mind thinks it's hilarious that most people don't know or understand they're not in control. Our consciousness is secondary to our subconscious. I E. Breathing, circulatory systems. If we had to think about breathing and such we wouldn't have evolved as quickly .
@@robertnewhart3547 Me too. Scary stuff. I think we will not use a humanoid robot to pair with AI, rather a spider or some other easier, less "tippy" robot structure.
Hello Sean, one question: why not think of a universe where the particles instead of moving, can be detected or stop being detected due to their energy level in one place or another? Instead of the particles moving, it is a field that takes on different values at different times.
the predictive mind seems to well explain why humans enjoy games and puzzles so well. I guess it gives a good root for why 'game theory' has application.
You're right, although I don't have perceived the upmost importance of education in gaming, causation of time scarse🐰... Scarcity, paucity, undersupply, you can recall Keynes Political Economics 🐇👁️👁️
You are relentless. Good. Human time is known for ages. Relativity, special or general, may be a less good paradigm, although time contraction or dilation is a fact, mostly proved around event horizon and information construct hipothesys... You are in pain. Slow time. So much pain. Strange time. You are eleven, very slow tine. You are 71, speed time. When time is only wating, they say. Subject alters a constant of nature? Of course, and the inverse is also truth. The oldest Kantian question is still an issue. Aletheia 🪬
![เป็นไปได้ไหม - WanMai [Performance Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Eh5hItD4Mr0/mqdefault.jpg)
![เปิดบ้าน โคตรสวย ป๋องกพล รู้จักตั้งนาน เพิ่งรู้ว่ารวย!!! l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tmgCF_2HfYI/mqdefault.jpg)
Always a good day when I wake up to a new mindscape!
Thank you! The new insights, the stepping stones, being offered by Andy Clark and coworkers make me very happy.
Awesome interview as always, I have great respect for Andy Clark. I have two people in mind who could be great to listen to as future guests:
1. Mark Solms - Neuroscientist, has his own book on consciousness with references to Damasio, Friston and Chalmers, and is very much into the FEP. He also had a recent "debate" with Lisa Feldman-Barrett that is on TH-cam and was very interesting to hear what they agree and disagree on. Also known for his idea of "neuropsychoanalysis".
2. Grace Lindsay - Computational Neuroscientist and author of "Models of the Mind: How Physics, Engineering and Mathematics Have Shaped Our Understanding of the Brain". She is mainly focused on using neural networks as models of the brain.
I have no idea if they would be interested and I don't even know if Sean Carroll reads any of these comments, but I just wanted to throw it out there since I think both have very interesting work and ideas related to what's usually discussed in the podcast. Give a thumbs up if you would like to see them, I guess?
It seems you are Renfield. Best wishes 🙏.
Panpsychism and extended mind are my two favorite topics. loved this.
Do you think panpsychism is true? I’m a hardcore naturalist seeking to explore with an open-mind.
This conversation was like listening to two seasoned jazz musicians extemporize and delight. Looks like I will be adding another book to my extended mind.
I was experiencing a motorcycle accident that caused me and the bike to be laid over on our side, while sliding forward. I was pretty satisfied that I was not being injured by this situation, and expected to ride the bike, in this position, until it slid to a stop. In an apparent instant, I got sensory information about the up side of my helmet slamming onto the pavement, followed, very quickly by the experience of my trunk organs sloshing sideways in the immediately previous direction of up, but slamming onto the pavement.
Quickly, I realized that I was no longer seated on the bike, but it was above me, in the direction of the sky (which an instant ago was the direction of the pavement). Given that I had not predicted these events, the process that got me from holding onto the bike, with one side down, to this new situation, with my other side slammed down, and separated from the bike, vertically was completely missing from my recollection.
That transition was missing from my perception of the passage of time.
It took me quite a while to reconstruct what must have happened to cause this transition, even though I did not seem to have been there, when it all happened.
29:41 Just to add another benefit of the brain using prediction, is the energy efficiency because the brain already uses 20% of the total body calorie budget in adults, yet it only weighs 3 lb.
If our brains instead was using a cognitive response to physical reality it would require much more energy as well as time.
Neurons in my brain interpreted this video and moved me towards clicking it long before I became consciously aware of it. Then I non-consciously went back and convinced myself that I consciously recognized a favorite channel of mine, and then consciously chose to watch it. Meanwhile my non-conscious mind is laughing at how swiftly & thoroughly I fool myself. But I don't mind since I'm not aware of it.
you didn't enjoy it quite so much in a previous incarnation.... :)
Half truths are beautiful, art 🎨 proofing....
Is there that truth outside the cavern of the Republic?
You may believe it.
It's called faith.
Among other predicates. ™️🐰
The mind equation
The more we think we have agencies to the actions the body takes, the more we imposes agencies to the activities in our environment.
The ownership expands into other objects.
The illusion of body ownership comes from the modeling of the motor neurones pattern from the childhood.
The self just predicts the bodies behaviours in the real world with its simulation of the real world. Multiple sensor data unify in language in the simulation.
Intelligence is economy of metabolism.
Language is temporal reference frame of economics.
Self is simulation in language on metabolism for economy.
Longer context windows create generalisation.
Shorter creates specificity.
Longer context window needs more computing.
Self is the protagonist creates a storyline in this context window.
Theory of mind evolved so that an entity can learn from it’s peers.
It’s creates a possibility for parallel computing.
Then it creates the possibility of transmitting
the highlights of a generational lessons into a metaphorical story for upcoming child.
That creates the possibility of modeling the physical world as a macro organism.
Creation of fiat currency was the singularity of this species.
There is now one macro organism in a connected web world.
Loosing the peer of the macro organism creates the possibility of loosing it’s objective function.
That creates the possibility of loosing the theory of mind of this macro organism.
That creates the possibility of death of this macro organism by reaching the planetary boundary.
That is post singularity.
Every action we do, we do what is expect from ours tribe.
Body might have a opinion, but not the cell.
They do what is expected from its tribe. If it doesn’t we call it cancer.
The body is a mirror system of the macro organism.
Each system have two transactional openings.
Serial and parallel.
Each cell within the body can transact material or information serially by genetic determinism and parallel non deterministic way.
Similarly eact body with in the macro organism can transact serially by inherit material and information in a deterministic manner and parallelly through language in the society.
Everything emerges from this systems.
Every sensor is a range calculator of contexts.
Taste > touch > smell
Immediate and visceral.
Vision > hearing
Not immediate, tactical.
Self > language
Abstract, strategical.
In this non deterministic economic transaction space the individual is coded to transact with its kin.
From the macro perspective tribe formation minimises economic risk for the tribes.
Each and every node of these systems organise and mark their kin’s with identifier.
Thus, i am what you make of me.
And others too.
For short cut i have a legal name, so you have. My legal name gives the legitimacy marker so that you can transact with me parallelly if you have the same marker.
The self is a simulation in language.
It negotiates between the physical world and the information world.
All these negotiations are the temporal memories in the body and scene of the story.
Now, when we started writing we iconised the abstract in the physical world to make symbols for the tribes. So that under that common symbol every node will take the same risk and distribute equally.
We created more and more symbols and more and more meta tribes within the tribes so that who has the authority to use the pen control the tribe.
When the negotiator act like an executioner then it’s a downfall of that system.
It falls apart.
Objective reality > legitimacy > individual behaviours.
Survival of the species is dependent on the decoding of the objective reality. Since no species can access it, they use their sensors and interpret the small data which is useful for the survival. Few complex species have created communication channels to rectify their sensory limitations to survive. Homo sapiens has widened their communication channels for faster throughput and started storing them as culture and carrying them through education. As a result we have created social truth.
Factual datas are the useful snapshot of the objective reality, a totem, a physical object can be observed with the sensors. Truth is an individual subject, an interpretation of the sensory data, a useful compromise.
The social truth is the useful compromise for the group by the group. The goal of the social truth is to survive as a group.
Physical Transcriptions of these social truth legitimise them.
We are tribal animal. We live in as a physical tribes and inside of hundreds of meta tribes in simulation which is the socio political data space we call it as the world.
Since we can’t access the objective reality reliably we look for social truth as the best guess blindly.
Institutions legitimise truths.
Fact driven institutions are more useful in the survival of the specie.
In other hand opinion driven institutions are not so useful for the species.
We do what we can get away with and exactly as expected within the context of our meta tribes.
We have two bodies
The biological one is like looking the earth from space.
And the political body is like the state.
The name you carry is the political body.
It transacts with the political states on the boundary less earth.
From the evolutionary perspective every biological entity has a basic feature which is homeostasis.
It’s the functioning sweet spot of that entity.
A control center read the sensory data to regulate itself to that state. By doing so it’s validate or update it’s prediction model.
In the process of becoming a complex organism it developed an extra layer of processing.
That’s our conscious mind.
And the control center remains as subconscious.
The subconscious collect the sensory data and regulate itself to stay functional.
Now when it stumble upon a novel environment it float the management to conscious mind to find the solution for homeostasis.
This conscious mind have one sensor which is language.
It works like a spiderweb.
As a spider creates it’s web it’s perception gets expand.
We are like spiders in a jungle.
We started creating these small webs at least 2/3 million years ago.
Our offspring stayed on it’s ancestral web reinforced it expanded it.
In time nearby webs became larger and connected with each other.
A common structural geometrical pattern emerges from this. This became the symbols which is the backbone of all language systems.
In time the forest becomes the mesh of web.
The superstructure is exactly the same but when we zoom in we can find different species of spiders are making their type of webs in between the super web.
Each spider try to senses the vibration of flies and
Try to catch it before others.
Every movement is telegraphic in the zone.
Every form of perceptions are just a different pitch of note traveling back and forth in the web superstructure.
There is a echo of older vibration pulsating through the web. Full of noise and self repeating hum.
That’s cultural history.
In the background there is the base hum in the infinite feedback loop.
Insignificant but ever present.
The sum of all the vibrations from the start.
50:02 “weapon”
Would love to know what collective thoughts drove his mind to move his tongue to form that word in that moment in time
I started listening to your podcast during COVID ,a big thank you , opening my mind to so much knowledge.
1:03:44 Packaging of honest placebo and branding matter, hence Zeebo® Effect, published in Nature and Journal for Pain. The free ebook The Placebo Cure - and Other Mind Body Effects covers it in more detail.
Placebo is a name for controled
hypochondriac behavior.
If one may.
two great story tellers
*account relayers
@@aaronclarke1434 😆
for a moment there i thought this might be a dud, but, every bit as fascinating as other podcasts, thanks for some thought provocation!
Has he read Lisa Feldman Barrett who writes: "Through prediction, your brain constructs the world you experience."
I feel like "I" am in my head. Not the center of my body. I suspect that is because my eyes and ears are located there. I wonder if people who are both blind and death feel like they are centered in their head as I do. I suspect they are still pre-wired to feel that way.
good question.
i like to get into arguments about colour - colour only exists inside people's heads, the universe is a grey scale. the really odd thing is sound doesn't exist anywhere, not even inside your head, "noise" is a total simulation.
Just curious. Physical experience seems to be the main guide for future decisions . Not accounting for the Fight or Flight response.
ANDY CLARK has kindly in 58:40
referred to
Rosalyn J Moran work at UCL that compares reward driven learners and prediction driven ones, could anyone please provide a link as I couldn't find it?
My deepest gratitude 🙏🏻
I think it is this one: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30082215/
Isn't the brain more active in relaxed state? Random access memory...? Designed to be ready to react?
Don't prediction errors develop the brain? Doesn't evolution account for this?
Now I want to have an in depth discussion with an AI chat bot about introspection.
My mind thinks it's hilarious that most people don't know or understand they're not in control. Our consciousness is secondary to our subconscious. I E. Breathing, circulatory systems. If we had to think about breathing and such we wouldn't have evolved as quickly .
i hope to be remembered for my sayings, one of which is "humans don't understand human nature"
I'm sure my atoms and molecules have an agenda outside of me or my mind,,I go along for the ride.😮another great podcast 'again' from the Boss. ❤
A briefcase is an extension of my mind
That was an hour plus well spent...
(timestamp for my own use 22:00)
@@robertnewhart3547 Me too. Scary stuff. I think we will not use a humanoid robot to pair with AI, rather a spider or some other easier, less "tippy" robot structure.
Stereo types exist for a reason. Hurtful or not
Hello Sean, one question: why not think of a universe where the particles instead of moving, can be detected or stop being detected due to their energy level in one place or another? Instead of the particles moving, it is a field that takes on different values at different times.
over egg the custard HA HA
False pattern recognition.... I
the predictive mind seems to well explain why humans enjoy games and puzzles so well. I guess it gives a good root for why 'game theory' has application.
You're right, although I don't have perceived the upmost importance of education in gaming, causation of time scarse🐰...
Scarcity, paucity, undersupply, you can recall Keynes Political Economics 🐇👁️👁️
charlatanmers ;p
You are relentless. Good.
Human time is known for ages.
Relativity, special or general, may be a less good paradigm, although time contraction or dilation is a fact, mostly proved around event horizon and information construct hipothesys...
You are in pain. Slow time.
So much pain. Strange time.
You are eleven, very slow tine.
You are 71, speed time.
When time is only wating, they say.
Subject alters a constant of nature?
Of course, and the inverse is also truth.
The oldest Kantian question is still an issue.
Aletheia 🪬