Hi Sam sorry for the late reply , Guitar arrived here in perfect condition thanks you and i can not praise you highly enough for the work and the results you have achieved with my Gs Mini, she is a joy to play for me , thank you so very very much for all your help and the endless skills you have drawn on to achieve such quality results , i am truly humbled !!!! I can not thank you enough !! you have made an ageing man very happy and content . Thank you Sam
4 year old GS Mini-e Koa top owner here.. I have virtually no belly on my gs-mini, though I have done a neck reset to lower the action the slightest bit. I just did a fret level, crown, and dressing last week. These guitars don't have a lot of fret so I recommend to anyone about to level and crown to be gentle and take of the very very least possible needed to level.
Hi Adrian - yes, I agree with you. It's one of the reasons that the 'Banana' method of levelling that I use is so effective: you don't take even the slightest bit of metal more than is required to make your chosen action play well. Interestingly I've never had to level a Taylor's frets yet even with a 'reset' and very low action. Most acoustics I find can be taken down to a great action without the need for levelling - but that's because the action, while low for an acoustic, is still above the typical target electric guitar action where levelling IS needed.
I have the same problem. I bought my "dream acoustic", a USA Martin D18, about 2 years ago from Andertons and after a short while it had a 5mm 12th fret action. By tightening the truss rod and switching to extra-light strings I've brought it down to 3.5mm at the 12th fret but it's still not great. It has a big pot belly bulge on the soundboard behind the bridge. I'm trying to love it without lowering the saddle as I'm aware that will affect the tone but it's not what I'd hoped for after 2 years. It has been kept in it's case and never exposed to extremes of temperature etc. Disappointing for a £2,700+ guitar.
You can shave the saddle but you need to ramp the peg holes in order to keep a good break angle, I do this on customers guitars all the time, and never a problem. Taylor should not be selling guitars with 6mm action when new .. it is just bad design.
I’m not sure if this helps with these issues but I had a Washburn for about 3 years it did this same thing. I’ve had my Martin for about 8 years. If I’m not going to play it for over a week or so I loosen all the strings to point of just barely any tension at all. After all these years the action stays exactly where I set it with zero belly bulge. Also when not in use stays in hard case with humidipaks. Maybe this is the key to avoiding bulging issues.
Jeff that’s a really useful piece of anecdotal evidence! It does align with the theory that the real issue is string loading vs. structural strength. It’s a great idea… sounds like hard work and maybe in an ideal world we wouldn’t have to go to those lengths. But we may have to!
That action was very high prior to the neck reset, I wonder whether the guitar has been over humidified. RH can get above 65-70% in the UK. Before I make any action adjustments I prefer to leave an instrument in a humidity controlled environment for a few days to see what changes. I don't understand your reasoning for measuring action at the last fret. Doesn't this differ depending on how many frets the guitar has? In addition, quite a few guitars have fall-away built into the frets beyond the body joint which complicates things further. 12th fret actions are used because this is the midpoint of the string path. To lower the 12th fret action by a set amount you need to remove twice that amount from the bottom of the saddle. Good tip about putting glue at the front edge of the saddle, a couple of drops of wood glue works perfectly.
Good points. The way I approach humidity is this: customer brings their guitar from their normal environment. This is where it's going back to after I've done anything. If they keep it in a humidity controlled room, then it's going back to one... if they come from a wet cottage in a Devon field then that's where it's going back to. I'm working with "what IS" not with "what could be if they only...." In addition I'm just not convinced that the deformation of the structure that I see (which is the main cause of the rising action) is to do with humidity. I don't doubt that excessive moisture will cause wood to swell slightly and lack of moisture will stretch guitar tops and pull things apart. I'm left with a question: when a top bellies behind the bridge, is it because of the constant string loading or is because the top is soaking up water like a sponge? My home is usually around 45-55% RH and it's a breeze block 'housing association' special with no central heating... While the RH outside can be 80-90% in the UK I don't think that it's anywhere near that in most homes... but that's definitely just a hunch. And in reality, if I sent away every customer who came with the guitar stabilised to THEIR local environment / how they keep it and told them to put it in a humidity-controlled room at 50% RH for 3 months and THEN come back to me.... well, I suspect they'd be back still needing the action reducing but I might have starved in the meantime. It's a difficult one to judge without doing some long-term experiments for sure. As for the last-fret measuring... it's just something that worked with my brain. It slightly complicates the maths, that's all really. I'm definitely NOT telling anyone that it's the RIGHT way to do things; I always just say it's how I do it. :D
I've the exact same Mahogany GS mini (also 2 years old) and the top is totally flat and it has an amazing low action - can't believe that massive bridge bulge on Neil's. Maybe a dumb question but would it not possible to double up shims to achieve the desired height ? These mahogany guitars have a very dark tone and I put D'Addario 85/15 bronze 9/45 super light strings on for brighter tone.
I had same problem with one these when it was six months old. It got sent to a Taylor authorised repairer and they put two gouge marks on the top taking the neck off.
I've had a neck removal 'disaster' with a Taylor as well; a badly-fitted / too tight fit of the fingerboard extension. There was literally no way to get the neck off without it pulling up the fragile top finish where it was squeeze / jammed in place. I made a pretty good repair and gave it a superb set up (according to the very happy customer, thanks Justin!) but it *will* happen on rare occasions. Your repairer should have a) told you and b) done everything possible to put it right.
I had some strings wrapped up as your's here and oh my gosh! I suddenly knew I was in training for being an electrician. They got so wrapped that that i had to cut them to stop from throwing the guitar.
Been there, done that more times than I like to remember. The secret is pushing through the whole cluster of coil-y ends back through the loop of strings without any one of them catching. It can be done, but it’s definitely an art form! 😅
Yeah, I hear ya. When I'm setting up a guitar now, I just put my locking Machine turner's on to do the work. Have a set just for that. I get too frustrated with the old strings and also, I don't like to get stabbed over and over with sometimes a rusty set. It's almost worth it to just add it into the cost. Thanks for the response. Again, learning the in-between stuff is daunting bit wprthit. I think now I'll stop letting the guitar tell me where the action needs to be. High e always breaks!
Hi Sam, Great video on the Taylor neck reset! I'm curious regarding the lowering of the saddle. You use the figure of 1.4 as a multiplier for the amount to remove from the saddle. Isn't it standard practice to use 2 as a multiplier since the 12th fret is half way between the nut and the saddle? Is 1.4 specific to Taylor guitars, or the mini, or is that just a figure you have found works better for you on all guitars? Thanks in advance for explaining the reasoning. Tom
Hi Thomas - I always measure my playing actions at the last fret which is about 1.4 x the distance from nut to 12th. I’m just using it to work out how much to remove from saddle (if I need to lower the action via the saddle - more often these days I do it via the bolt-on a neck + factory shim pairs). I know that 1mm action reduction at 12th fret requires 2mm off the saddle; so I multiply my desired last fret reduction by 1.4 to approximate what I need to take off the saddle. I’m lousy at basic maths so it could well be wrong and in fact be the other way round ie should be 1.6 not 1.4 lol but if so then I’m just in effect being conservative / cautious which is ok!
JLD Bridge system (the "Doctor" is the version with brass string pegs) is the last option for this guitar down the line - unless it turns out that Taylor makes a bigger shim than the '30' I used. Of course some people would resort to making their own but I'd prefer that they were precisely manufactured. I've had varied results with the JLD Bridge system; it pretty much always stops the bridge rising any more but it varies whether or not it will reverse the bellying.
So are we to conclude that the way this guitar has distorted is due to poor workmanship or could it possibly be due to some ridiculous storage conditions? Nice to see you got the action to where it should be. Btw, no snow in Callington yet.
I honestly don't know Paul. There are some that don't change as radically and some that do. What I DO know (as we've discussed before) is that MOST of them start deforming from the factory onwards. If you're lucky you get one that doesn't deform as much... if you're VERY lucky you get one that stays the same forever. But, by definition, a guitar tech / luthier is going to see sick guitars (just like a doctor is going to see more sick people than healthy ones!). I think a combination of things are at play: definitely a battle between twinkly tone and structural strength; different grain and wood between guitars... different environmental conditions where the guitars are kept. Different gauges of strings... You'd expect those things to change the guitar over time - but a lot more time than this 2.5yrs.
Driftwood guitar's has don't many video's on this subject. They cut them open and explain why the guitar's are doing these things qnd how the quality of the woods is the main factor. That and the silly half done bracing. I mean, almost no hand work goes into them now. The x bracing, ok not sure I like it. The laminated top wood's, the under cut bracing and the desire to cut corners and still make money has done it well to us. Obviously, humidity can do wonderful things to wood. Yes, lots of factors but living in a mobile home is so far the worst for me to see. Damage from that.
I have one of these and very very happy with it .... ... Mahogany really gives a warm sound. Unbelievable the light gauge .. I'll have to measure mind .. for sure not factory that I think was at 13
Nut is either PQ-6143-L0 or PQ-1728-L0 (the 'L' at the end designates left-hand). I'm not sure what the appropriate saddle part number is (I'd have to go to the workshop to check as I have one up there. Most of the time I don't upgrade the saddle with a Tusq one as there's little or no benefit over bone or even plastic.
@ thanks , got my gs mini by second hand and the string action is a bit high. the nut and saddle are kinda yellow ( because of the age?) so my first thought was to replace them…
@@philipp5883 That saddle is compensated so goes some way to being correctly intonated. You need the saddle to be exactly the right thickness (or slightly more as you can always carefully flat-sand it back to snug fit). But has to be wide enough and tall enough as well.
@@SamDeeksRelovedGuitars I can't drive, and don't own a car. Things are made to be bashed about, especially something taken out on the street to pay the electric.Why attempt to make anything look road-worn, unless you're 12, with too much money?
Why would anyone want a guitar with a ridiculous 6mm high action, so high that it is unplayable. Come on Taylor you should do better than this, whoever designed this is an idiot! I would normally expect to do a neck reset on a very old guitar that has bellied over the years but not on a fairly new guitar.
I'm trying to get into a conversation with Taylor at the moment about this issue and a number of others with their acoustic guitars - all of which I think are 'fixable'. It remains to be seen whether they will make time to hear what I have to say. But yes, a guitar THAT 'tired out' so early in its life is completely unacceptable. Unfortunately, my (fairly limited so far) experience suggests that this isn't as rare as you'd hope it would be.
Hi Sam sorry for the late reply , Guitar arrived here in perfect condition thanks you and i can not praise you highly enough for the work and the results you have achieved with my Gs Mini, she is a joy to play for me , thank you so very very much for all your help and the endless skills you have drawn on to achieve such quality results , i am truly humbled !!!! I can not thank you enough !! you have made an ageing man very happy and content . Thank you Sam
^^ That right there is what makes me happy ^^ My absolute pleasure Neil - thank you!
4 year old GS Mini-e Koa top owner here.. I have virtually no belly on my gs-mini, though I have done a neck reset to lower the action the slightest bit. I just did a fret level, crown, and dressing last week. These guitars don't have a lot of fret so I recommend to anyone about to level and crown to be gentle and take of the very very least possible needed to level.
Hi Adrian - yes, I agree with you. It's one of the reasons that the 'Banana' method of levelling that I use is so effective: you don't take even the slightest bit of metal more than is required to make your chosen action play well. Interestingly I've never had to level a Taylor's frets yet even with a 'reset' and very low action. Most acoustics I find can be taken down to a great action without the need for levelling - but that's because the action, while low for an acoustic, is still above the typical target electric guitar action where levelling IS needed.
I have the same problem. I bought my "dream acoustic", a USA Martin D18, about 2 years ago from Andertons and after a short while it had a 5mm 12th fret action. By tightening the truss rod and switching to extra-light strings I've brought it down to 3.5mm at the 12th fret but it's still not great. It has a big pot belly bulge on the soundboard behind the bridge. I'm trying to love it without lowering the saddle as I'm aware that will affect the tone but it's not what I'd hoped for after 2 years. It has been kept in it's case and never exposed to extremes of temperature etc. Disappointing for a £2,700+ guitar.
Utterly mate - pathetic. I there any extended warranty on the guitar?
You can shave the saddle but you need to ramp the peg holes in order to keep a good break angle, I do this on customers guitars all the time, and never a problem. Taylor should not be selling guitars with 6mm action when new .. it is just bad design.
People may need a lesson in moisture and humidity. Lol
Solid top will reduce belly hump.
I’m not sure if this helps with these issues but I had a Washburn for about 3 years it did this same thing. I’ve had my Martin for about 8 years. If I’m not going to play it for over a week or so I loosen all the strings to point of just barely any tension at all. After all these years the action stays exactly where I set it with zero belly bulge. Also when not in use stays in hard case with humidipaks. Maybe this is the key to avoiding bulging issues.
Jeff that’s a really useful piece of anecdotal evidence! It does align with the theory that the real issue is string loading vs. structural strength. It’s a great idea… sounds like hard work and maybe in an ideal world we wouldn’t have to go to those lengths. But we may have to!
That action was very high prior to the neck reset, I wonder whether the guitar has been over humidified. RH can get above 65-70% in the UK. Before I make any action adjustments I prefer to leave an instrument in a humidity controlled environment for a few days to see what changes. I don't understand your reasoning for measuring action at the last fret. Doesn't this differ depending on how many frets the guitar has? In addition, quite a few guitars have fall-away built into the frets beyond the body joint which complicates things further. 12th fret actions are used because this is the midpoint of the string path. To lower the 12th fret action by a set amount you need to remove twice that amount from the bottom of the saddle. Good tip about putting glue at the front edge of the saddle, a couple of drops of wood glue works perfectly.
Good points. The way I approach humidity is this: customer brings their guitar from their normal environment. This is where it's going back to after I've done anything. If they keep it in a humidity controlled room, then it's going back to one... if they come from a wet cottage in a Devon field then that's where it's going back to. I'm working with "what IS" not with "what could be if they only...."
In addition I'm just not convinced that the deformation of the structure that I see (which is the main cause of the rising action) is to do with humidity. I don't doubt that excessive moisture will cause wood to swell slightly and lack of moisture will stretch guitar tops and pull things apart. I'm left with a question: when a top bellies behind the bridge, is it because of the constant string loading or is because the top is soaking up water like a sponge?
My home is usually around 45-55% RH and it's a breeze block 'housing association' special with no central heating... While the RH outside can be 80-90% in the UK I don't think that it's anywhere near that in most homes... but that's definitely just a hunch.
And in reality, if I sent away every customer who came with the guitar stabilised to THEIR local environment / how they keep it and told them to put it in a humidity-controlled room at 50% RH for 3 months and THEN come back to me.... well, I suspect they'd be back still needing the action reducing but I might have starved in the meantime. It's a difficult one to judge without doing some long-term experiments for sure.
As for the last-fret measuring... it's just something that worked with my brain. It slightly complicates the maths, that's all really. I'm definitely NOT telling anyone that it's the RIGHT way to do things; I always just say it's how I do it. :D
I've the exact same Mahogany GS mini (also 2 years old) and the top is totally flat and it has an amazing low action - can't believe that massive bridge bulge on Neil's. Maybe a dumb question but would it not possible to double up shims to achieve the desired height ?
These mahogany guitars have a very dark tone and I put D'Addario 85/15 bronze 9/45 super light strings on for brighter tone.
I had same problem with one these when it was six months old.
It got sent to a Taylor authorised repairer and they put two gouge marks on the top taking the neck off.
I've had a neck removal 'disaster' with a Taylor as well; a badly-fitted / too tight fit of the fingerboard extension. There was literally no way to get the neck off without it pulling up the fragile top finish where it was squeeze / jammed in place. I made a pretty good repair and gave it a superb set up (according to the very happy customer, thanks Justin!) but it *will* happen on rare occasions. Your repairer should have a) told you and b) done everything possible to put it right.
I had some strings wrapped up as your's here and oh my gosh! I suddenly knew I was in training for being an electrician. They got so wrapped that that i had to cut them to stop from throwing the guitar.
Been there, done that more times than I like to remember. The secret is pushing through the whole cluster of coil-y ends back through the loop of strings without any one of them catching. It can be done, but it’s definitely an art form! 😅
Yeah, I hear ya. When I'm setting up a guitar now, I just put my locking Machine turner's on to do the work. Have a set just for that. I get too frustrated with the old strings and also, I don't like to get stabbed over and over with sometimes a rusty set. It's almost worth it to just add it into the cost. Thanks for the response. Again, learning the in-between stuff is daunting bit wprthit. I think now I'll stop letting the guitar tell me where the action needs to be. High e always breaks!
Hi Sam,
Great video on the Taylor neck reset! I'm curious regarding the lowering of the saddle. You use the figure of 1.4 as a multiplier for the amount to remove from the saddle. Isn't it standard practice to use 2 as a multiplier since the 12th fret is half way between the nut and the saddle? Is 1.4 specific to Taylor guitars, or the mini, or is that just a figure you have found works better for you on all guitars? Thanks in advance for explaining the reasoning.
Tom
Hi Thomas - I always measure my playing actions at the last fret which is about 1.4 x the distance from nut to 12th. I’m just using it to work out how much to remove from saddle (if I need to lower the action via the saddle - more often these days I do it via the bolt-on a neck + factory shim pairs). I know that 1mm action reduction at 12th fret requires 2mm off the saddle; so I multiply my desired last fret reduction by 1.4 to approximate what I need to take off the saddle. I’m lousy at basic maths so it could well be wrong and in fact be the other way round ie should be 1.6 not 1.4 lol but if so then I’m just in effect being conservative / cautious which is ok!
It snowed here in Oklahoma 7" and below 0 temperatures
I wish we had some of your good ol' Oklahoma snow over here.
you could use the bridge doctor to remove the hump on non taylors
JLD Bridge system (the "Doctor" is the version with brass string pegs) is the last option for this guitar down the line - unless it turns out that Taylor makes a bigger shim than the '30' I used. Of course some people would resort to making their own but I'd prefer that they were precisely manufactured.
I've had varied results with the JLD Bridge system; it pretty much always stops the bridge rising any more but it varies whether or not it will reverse the bellying.
So are we to conclude that the way this guitar has distorted is due to poor workmanship or could it possibly be due to some ridiculous storage conditions?
Nice to see you got the action to where it should be.
Btw, no snow in Callington yet.
I honestly don't know Paul. There are some that don't change as radically and some that do. What I DO know (as we've discussed before) is that MOST of them start deforming from the factory onwards. If you're lucky you get one that doesn't deform as much... if you're VERY lucky you get one that stays the same forever. But, by definition, a guitar tech / luthier is going to see sick guitars (just like a doctor is going to see more sick people than healthy ones!).
I think a combination of things are at play: definitely a battle between twinkly tone and structural strength; different grain and wood between guitars... different environmental conditions where the guitars are kept. Different gauges of strings...
You'd expect those things to change the guitar over time - but a lot more time than this 2.5yrs.
Driftwood guitar's has don't many video's on this subject. They cut them open and explain why the guitar's are doing these things qnd how the quality of the woods is the main factor. That and the silly half done bracing. I mean, almost no hand work goes into them now. The x bracing, ok not sure I like it. The laminated top wood's, the under cut bracing and the desire to cut corners and still make money has done it well to us. Obviously, humidity can do wonderful things to wood. Yes, lots of factors but living in a mobile home is so far the worst for me to see. Damage from that.
I have one of these and very very happy with it .... ... Mahogany really gives a warm sound. Unbelievable the light gauge .. I'll have to measure mind .. for sure not factory that I think was at 13
Need a new saddle and nut for the lefthand model , wich one do you recommend? maybe tusq but i cant find the right one
Nut is either PQ-6143-L0 or PQ-1728-L0 (the 'L' at the end designates left-hand). I'm not sure what the appropriate saddle part number is (I'd have to go to the workshop to check as I have one up there. Most of the time I don't upgrade the saddle with a Tusq one as there's little or no benefit over bone or even plastic.
@ thanks , got my gs mini by second hand and the string action is a bit high. the nut and saddle are kinda yellow ( because of the age?) so my first thought was to replace them…
@@SamDeeksRelovedGuitars will a PQ 9280 L0 work as a saddle? or will there be intonation issuses?
@@philipp5883 That saddle is compensated so goes some way to being correctly intonated. You need the saddle to be exactly the right thickness (or slightly more as you can always carefully flat-sand it back to snug fit). But has to be wide enough and tall enough as well.
@@SamDeeksRelovedGuitarsmeh, ok. so i have to send it back . i still cant find the right model for lefthand version .
Sam, Taylor won't send me any shims. I'm not a part of the club.
Nitro psychosis. 'There's a few dents and scratches, bro, but I can always relic it with a sledgehammer''. Taylor made. I'm hilarious.
I'm going to have a go at relic'ing something... some time. Apart from my car, that is. That's getting heavily relic'd by the day!
@@SamDeeksRelovedGuitars Fair enough. Some things really aren't worth thinking about.
@@SamDeeksRelovedGuitars I can't drive, and don't own a car. Things are made to be bashed about, especially something taken out on the street to pay the electric.Why attempt to make anything look road-worn, unless you're 12, with too much money?
Why would anyone want a guitar with a ridiculous 6mm high action, so high that it is unplayable. Come on Taylor you should do better than this, whoever designed this is an idiot! I would normally expect to do a neck reset on a very old guitar that has bellied over the years but not on a fairly new guitar.
I'm trying to get into a conversation with Taylor at the moment about this issue and a number of others with their acoustic guitars - all of which I think are 'fixable'. It remains to be seen whether they will make time to hear what I have to say. But yes, a guitar THAT 'tired out' so early in its life is completely unacceptable. Unfortunately, my (fairly limited so far) experience suggests that this isn't as rare as you'd hope it would be.