In which I may disappoint fans of a certain sort of film. The movies show torches lighting up every castle, dungeon, and palace. The reality was rather different. www.LloydianAspects.co.uk
I was watching a black video this entire time because TH-cam failed to actually display it, only playing the audio. I didn't realize anything was wrong because I assumed it was a clever play on your part to make a video about the in-viability of torches in many circumstances, and have the whole video be pitch black.
I know this comment has 10 years but I want to say that it is confirmed that draugrs do in fact light candles and torches. Although I still don't know where they get resources for that from.
For people who live in modern times where nights are conveniently lit by electric lights, it is difficult for us to imagine a time before when people went to sleep when it got dark. In such a world, the need for lighting tends to be rare especially for the poor which is basically 90% of the population; candles and oil for lamps had to be made or purchased.
The fantasy writer Poul Anderson wrote an excellent essay that touches on this topic. Essentially, he mentions that in the days before widespread lighting no one went out after dark in a big city unless accompanied by paid lantern-bearers and a retinue of bodyguards. It was just too dangerous otherwise. If you've ever been caught in an old-world city during a powercut (narrow winding streets, lots of buildings crammed together) you realise how pitch black and confusing everything becomes. Its, pardon the pun, quite eye-opening.
I remember that scenario the GM was feeling particularly evil that day and we died of smoke inhalation in a few minutes because we all had our torches out and we were playing a "Realistic" fantasy adventure
In Dungeons & Dragons, one can buy an "Everburning Torch", a torch that burns with a magical flame that does not consume oxygen or produce heat or smoke, and it burns _indefinitely._ The listed price is 110 gp, which would buy 11,000 ordinary torches, but creating the magical flame is actually a minor spell within the ability of a junior spell-caster (level 3?). So this is something that violates not only the laws of Physics, but of Economics as well.
VidkunQL We'd just find a spell-caster to cast Continual Light onto the end of a staff. Alternately, it could be cast on a rock and kept in a lantern, which could then be shuttered if necessary.
OneEyedJack1970 3rd edition replaced continual light with continual flame. they also removed the ability to cast it on someone's face as it's a touch spell. S.O.P. when my wizard/cleric could cast it, I would have a pouch with 10-20 stones with it on them.
I'm the only one who has a low-ish level wizard who made a massive fortune selling little hand-carved wooden candles with Continual Light cast on them, aren't I?
I'm glad I had the parents I had as a kid; I grew up out-bush and was an adventurous child who liked rock-climbing and cave-exploring. On one childhood adventure one of the other kids suggested we make a torch out of spinifex grass (mostly because we needed light to explore the cave by but also because we were kids and kids love playing with fire). Fortunately, my dad caught us before we could go ahead with our plan and gave us battery torches instead and explained that having fire and smoke in a tight space (like a cave) would easily end up with one - or all - of us dying inside from smoke inhalation or setting ourselves on fire and that it was "a bloody stupid idea". Which is why when I got around to playing D&D I picked a hooded lantern every time at character creation (bullseye lantern if I could afford one). Plus the extra bottles of oil made good ambush weapons against an enemy who DID use a torch ^-^
In Far Cry 3 and Assassin's Creed, the burning torches are also present inside the ancient Ruins or brurried secret tombs that nobody has been to for centuries. DESPITE THE FACT THAT THERE"S NO MAGIC INVOLVED IN THESE SERIES.
This is what I love about this channel and others like it. A good, clear-headed history lesson delivered with just enough sass and humor to make the lesson stick. Honestly, I'd never given torches a second thought, until now. Thanks Lindybeige!
It's becoming increasingly more common for the protagonist to enter abandoned buildings lit by torches, candles or lamps. But then I'm reminded of how many American films show abandoned factories that still have the power turned on. Or abandoned buildings full of furniture. Then there is the zombie show where a house has an immaculate garden and nary a trace of dust to be seen two years after the initial outbreak. All this while been in the plains of 'Tornado Alley' where vicious winds are common.
+Aadil Shah What baffles me even more is when the protagonist enters a dark, abandoned building and then all the so far unlit torches catch fire on their own for no reason other than the presence of the main hero in the room.
***** Well, if it's fantasy, then magic. No problem. If it's an airtight, sealed crypt and the protagonist has just opened it to the air, then science and no problem. (Except, possibly, anachronistic.) But I do see how that seems very weird. I like even my fantasy shows to seem at least reasonably plausible. Unless it's Spaceballs. P
+Aadil Shah That's nothing. How about the various movies, TV shows, and games set centuries into a post-apocalyptic future, but the machines of our era still somehow magically work? Or movies from PLANET OF THE APES to THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW in which the Statue of Liberty is apparently as resistant to damage as though it were carved out of solid steel (but somehow able to support its own weight), rather than being thin sheeting over a scaffold?
+Aadil Shah you'd be surprised how much is left in some abandoned buildings and ghost towns....sad how wasteful people can be when the idea of profit is taken away....
Franklin Blankenship Actually, it is concern for profit that likely causes people to leave things behind. It can be a waste of time (=$) to clean up after oneself, and in many cases it is not worthwhile to pack things up and move them. I remember that thought suddenly dawning on me when I was moving back home from Germany many years ago; I had only so much room in my luggage, and it made no sense to take that up with socks and underwear for more than about 3 days.
Actually, the way I always played it as a boy was with taking down light sources. The characters with the lights had figures which I BluTacked to large yellow tiddleywinks.
I just want to say thank you so much for this video. It's stuck with me more than any of your others, and I think it's because "magical" torches that are always lit and don't have any bad consequences are something I've been guilty of as a fantasy writer. I just wrote a novel last month that takes place almost solely inside a castle, and I took this advice to heart and always made sure to mention the presence of a lamp. If my character woke up in a room with a torch that was lit, I made sure to mention that somebody must have been there not very long ago, to light said torch. I'm sure I've still made a ton of mistakes with torches and indoor lighting, but it's something I'll be sure to spend some time on in my edits.
griffknox oh god you're one of *those* people.. news flash: fantasy is not an excuse for ignoring physics and common sense!! If it were, then why didn't Frodo just fly all the way to mount doom at light speed? What, in a movie where there are Nazgul and orcs, you'd care about a half-man flying at light speed?
People have always hated the logic I used for lighting sources in my D&D and Hackmaster games - except one enterprising individual who used the logic behind all of my add hock rules to snuff out a Red Dragon. Used a force bubble spell around the dragons head as it used it's breath weapon; Though immune to fire he took a bet on it being just as weak to smoke inhalation as any other breathing entity...he was, in fact, correct.
In most illustrations I've seen of torches, their usage, such as lighting things on fire, or melting wax or tar for on sight use, suggest they were used more for their heat than their light.
Thank You! I have been railing at movies for years over thr handling of torches, lanterns, and candles. Obviously, the directors never endured a power outage. R
No, it's a public park in a city, but one where I knew there is a secluded steep-sided quarry. Once the camera adjusts to torchlight, the faint starlight and light pollution becomes an irrelevance.
Yes, try them not lit first. As a juggling instructor, I advise you to learn clubs first, and warm up before lighting them. Juggling torches in the dark is (in my opinion) very difficult, as the flames leave you night-blind, making the handles very hard to see (that's why they're usually wrapped with reflective tape) Warming up before lighting the torch allows muscle memory help you predict where the handles will be if you can't see them. With much practice, I t is possible to juggle blindfolded Another quick juggling piece of advice, your hands should be closer to the neck of the torch, closer to the center of gravity. This will give you much better control of the club, and it will be easier catch the handles. Kudos for being willing to attempt torch juggling in front of such a large audience, and still posting a less-than-successful result.
There was a bizarre event in 1393 called the Bal des Ardents, in which the King of France, and several of his courtiers were wearing highly flammable "wild man" costumes at a party, when someone came in carrying a torch, and accidentally started a fire that burned some of them to death, the King only barely escaping with his life.
This is always a common bizarre thing in video games. Ancient temples unexplored for millenia - with freshly lit torches! Also enemies that, when killed, conveniently drop modern currency.
I just played an RPG on sunday. The players used light spells cast on coins set in helmets and similar things. Nobody had a torch. The orcs had infravision so they had no use for torches. When spilled oil did catch on fire, I had smoke starting to fill the cavern within seconds. I strive for realism in my world of magic.
candles work great for lighting dungeons. Lots of examples of old Mines in the US that where lit with candles. You would only keep the candles in the area you where working lit and extinguish those in areas you where leaving. Most often they'd notch a section of wall out for the candle and even today you can see the melted wax left behind.
I watched this video 4 years after it being published but could not stop myself from commenting. About the Solomon Kane part. For some reason, magical ever-burning torches don't seem that far-off, in a haunted church, to me. About the reason they where there? Well, you got me there, there is none, except mayhaps for aiding the people visiting their zombie ancestors.
One benefit to using torches underground (When exploring caves and such) is that is shows the changing oxygen levels. Of course a candle or lantern would do the same thing, but a torch will be more apparent. Just some wisdom I picked up from an Indiana Jones novel.
When you got on about using tar or pitch for torches, it reminded me of a camping trip where I did make some torches using pine tar. One thing that became apperant as a problem was that once the pitch got hot enough to burn, it started to drip leaving little flaming puddles where ever I went.
Torchwood or candlewood and pine knots is what was used in brazier-like wrought iron cage like holders. Also torchwood or splint holders were used. Its well documented in the ancient literature.
I get the impression from period artwork that torches in the Middle Ages were made of bundles of reeds. And I also recall an American archaeological site, a cave, where remains of reed torches were found with the apparent purpose of illuminating said cave, although I don't think they were placed on the walls! They were of course carried in the hand and dropped when exhausted.
My favourite Medieval meme surely is torches during...Dalight. But another would be the Eternal Torch or Magic Torch. This would be the one that never goes out.
Actually, in Skyrim it is canon that Draugr go about maintaining and cleaning their crypts. Guarding is actually supposed to be a secondary duty, since they don't tend to get many visitors (aside from the protagonist). One of their duties include maintaining the torches and braziers found throughout their crypt. Good to know Bethesda at least kind of took that into account.
Another point to consider, particularly in a "castle" or "church" setting, is that the most of them are decorated rather richly (it's not just bare stone... unless it's marble, which would be fancy enough anyway). Tapestries, painted plaster, frescoes, posh woods (carved, varnished and/or painted), there's a lot of fancy stuff that a) you don't want to set on fire and b) you don't want to cover in soot and lampblack...
Then there are "Gone with the Wind" kerosene / paraffin lamps, ironically named thus as they appear in the 1939 film. Sadly, the style did not appear until 25 to 30 years after the American Civil War. And if course, kerosene / paraffin lamps in any film set before about 1860 since the stuff wasn't invented until 1848 and the "common" flat wick burner for it was an 1855 development by Karl Rudolf Ditmar in Vienna. Such lamps did not become common until well after 1860.
No,no, no! You've got it all wrong LB! The sole purpose of having lots of torches in dungeons is to provide the prisoners with improvised weapons with which to beat the living stuffing out of the guards. Man alive, I thought that would've been obvious even captain obvious caught that one.
You are making a lot of sense, but I can imagine that wealthy people could have certain parts/routes of their house/castle/whatever permanently lit (or at least while they were awake). I don't want to question your expertise, but in this case I think you're underestimating (or understating) how labour intensive it was anyway to manage a large estate without modern convenience. I also think it's unlikely that torches were used, but a 'candle servant' or something is not unlikely to me at all. Ice cellars in warmer climates for example were also thought of as 'practical', eventhough the ice had to be transported off mountains constantly to maintain the temperature. Nice video's, subscribed.
Good points, The torches I make out of tar make a decent amount of black smoke witch is unhealthy no inhale. However I have only been using them outside. They are very effective to use as a becon to your friends or finding lost items hidden in the grass during night for example. I would become night blind if I used them when traveling though.
I just saw the Showtime series "The Borgias" and the first episode gave me high hopes for authenticity. Dark hallways with a few candles or oil lamps only where the people were; neat! Alas, another few episodes in the director decided torches were cooler looking and started using them en mass.
Haha! Having Lindybeige as a DM, insisting on historical accuracy in the D&D game would be a hilarious surprise for your typical fantasy gamers. "Sorry. Your torches have filled the room with smoke. You can't breathe." "WHAT!?!" And I'm sure there are many other fantasy tropes that they would have that he would completely dash that would result in many character deaths.
I do not know of anywhere that has genuine medieval torch brackets on the walls. Are you sure that they were not Victorian or more modern, there to please the tourists?
Still not Dreadfully realistic, but I like Legend of Zelda. You get a candle, and have to light sconces and stuff in the dungeons yourself, and they burn out quickly.
Somewhere along the way, Hollywood has given us the impression that torches are more eternal than diamonds. Once set, they burn for all eternity, until by some magic or stray wind it is snuffed out.
well i think you could probably find a substance that doesn't produce as much smoke or smell as bad. During a trip in ancient towns in france, we were issued with "simple" torches that didn't make much smoke nor smell, the head seemed to be made by tying some sort of small rope around the end, and it was probably full of some sort of glue or resin like you said. And i think they lasted about an hour, so i don't think it's that out of the question to have torches be used for adventurers in a fantasy world, as long as you're not exploring a whole town with one torch. You can handwave a lot of these problem by introducing a specie of tree or sort of resin which doesn't exist IRL
Another important thing that most people forget is Oxygen, even if the torch was smooth and made no smoke, a closed space might run out of oxygen fairly quickly with too many torches in there, dying out of CO2 or CO poisoning wouldn't be unlikely, plus it would be far less noticeable than smoke. Cool video btw.
I do love your videos for pointing out things that not many really question and that (the things) may seem rather ridiculous once you do question them.
In Dragon magazine one time it was posited that the torches had one further use than illumination and detecting air currents. If your dungeon crawling party noticed their torch flames turning blue, that was a sign to turn around and retreat to another place. The blue coloration of the flame indicated a gas buildup, a subtle DM warning that further progress would be a poor choice. ;)
The worst part about this is not the smoke inhalation or the smell. It’s the fact that the orcs 500 yards down the hallway can smell your smoke, and know that you are coming, or they can follow your trail by the smell, even miles through a dungeon crawl. Given a long enough hallway they can also see your light. For so many reasons, torches are such a bad idea. Drow elves unite.
But if do a steel headed or even pure bamboo diesel torch (With sand inside to do diesel don't leak when move the torch, transforming a liquid fuel on a "solid" fuel) can last for about 4 hours, but sure diesel wasn't available at ancient times.. 😅
Great vid again my man!!! Outstanding information on torches. I love the idea you gave about orcish dungeons with flumes. That makes a ton of sense. I cannot say thank you enough for posting these vids!! Great information and great entertainment!!!
One's enjoyment of movies sometimes depends on being able to hand wave or ignore dumb, illogical or lazy parts of them and just admire the combined craft of actors, writers, photographers, set, prop and costume "builders", and all the people doing the light, sound, logistics and business stuff, which against many factors result in an actually finished product.
I would love to see a series of videos discussing the design and make of various torches as shown in cinema & gaming, and an analysis of the effectiveness thereof.
That brings with it whole hosts of problems. If you have magic ever lasting fire, you suddenly have the perfect renewable energy source. They whole world should be industrializing very quickly. If it's a light source without heat, the whole thing with torches doesn't make much sense. There are better ways of carrying the fire around.
Yeah, it's true if they at least TRY to explain it that way. Which is almost never the case, you just have to accept the fact that torches in this fantasy dungeon have been burning for 6 thousand years or try to invent an explanation yourself, which is like doing the homework for the author.
I agree with the point about abandoned dungeons with torch-lit corridors, but not so much with that it'd be impossible to be in a room with burning torches for a long period of time. In a CLOSED room with no ventilation, yes. But in most dungeon adventures, heroes don't bother closing the doors when they come in, and so it'd create a nice draft of air that would blow away the fumes. Take this video: you're standing in a room with burning torches for several minutes, and you're fine (I hope).
I was actually already implementing this into my games XD one player did however have a really cool idea. before an OUTDOOR battle he covered his mace in tar and lit it on fire. and started to catch everyone on fire while simultaneously beating the crap out of them. it was hilarious how it was described. "I start beating him to death as he runs around screaming!!" " as he wildly flails his arms you pound him to the ground and continuously smash him with your mace. with every hit he spasms into the air. you then also catch fire." "I charge head first into that group!!!" "a human torch rubs towards the group, screaming and wildly flailing his arms!"
Unepic is a dungeon crawling videogame Castlevania style in which all the light sources are off and you have light them with your lighter, also it has very nice light effects.
This is why in dnd always use an everburning torch if you can. 110 gp (in 3.5) only and never burns out and no smoke and no heat so you can just stuff it, lit, in your backpack
Lindy underestimates the power of the medieval torch replacement union.
Yur
*Guild
I was watching a black video this entire time because TH-cam failed to actually display it, only playing the audio. I didn't realize anything was wrong because I assumed it was a clever play on your part to make a video about the in-viability of torches in many circumstances, and have the whole video be pitch black.
xD
^^ well that sounds awfully lot like modern art to me ;-)
Honest mistake
Pitch black, like the night in Gothic.
Hahaha
Torches are a good accompaniment to pitchforks when confronting the local mad scientist, though.
Truer words, have yet to be spoken.
I keep a stockpile just for that reason.
RIP Gene Wilder
Again with the torches and pitchforks! Can't you peasants find a new way to interrupt my work?
smoke? nonsense. god shall protect us from such hellish things.
Reminds me of the dungeons in Skyrim. '4000 year old crypt' 'lit candles everywhere'
The draugr torch lighting association
Omg I literally got to this video from a link in an article about torches in skyrim. The article makes this exact point lol
And modern currency and good food
I know this comment has 10 years but I want to say that it is confirmed that draugrs do in fact light candles and torches. Although I still don't know where they get resources for that from.
Can we all take a moment to appreciate Lloyd for going into a cave and juggling torches?
For people who live in modern times where nights are conveniently lit by electric lights, it is difficult for us to imagine a time before when people went to sleep when it got dark. In such a world, the need for lighting tends to be rare especially for the poor which is basically 90% of the population; candles and oil for lamps had to be made or purchased.
The fantasy writer Poul Anderson wrote an excellent essay that touches on this topic. Essentially, he mentions that in the days before widespread lighting no one went out after dark in a big city unless accompanied by paid lantern-bearers and a retinue of bodyguards. It was just too dangerous otherwise. If you've ever been caught in an old-world city during a powercut (narrow winding streets, lots of buildings crammed together) you realise how pitch black and confusing everything becomes. Its, pardon the pun, quite eye-opening.
I remember that scenario the GM was feeling particularly evil that day and we died of smoke inhalation in a few minutes because we all had our torches out and we were playing a "Realistic" fantasy adventure
In Dungeons & Dragons, one can buy an "Everburning Torch", a torch that burns with a magical flame that does not consume oxygen or produce heat or smoke, and it burns _indefinitely._
The listed price is 110 gp, which would buy 11,000 ordinary torches, but creating the magical flame is actually a minor spell within the ability of a junior spell-caster (level 3?). So this is something that violates not only the laws of Physics, but of Economics as well.
VidkunQL Magic is fantasy's way of cheating. Such a deus ex machina.
VidkunQL Junior spellcasters might not know cantrips(or not the firey ones anyways), nonetheless be 3rd level.
*****
I would much rather learn read magic and mage hand.
VidkunQL We'd just find a spell-caster to cast Continual Light onto the end of a staff. Alternately, it could be cast on a rock and kept in a lantern, which could then be shuttered if necessary.
OneEyedJack1970 3rd edition replaced continual light with continual flame. they also removed the ability to cast it on someone's face as it's a touch spell. S.O.P. when my wizard/cleric could cast it, I would have a pouch with 10-20 stones with it on them.
which is why, in d&d, you bring your zippo brand wizard to cast light and then stand there doing nothing.
+pvtblue I agree. We all got this Mage which is only a source of light and nothing more.
I'm the only one who has a low-ish level wizard who made a massive fortune selling little hand-carved wooden candles with Continual Light cast on them, aren't I?
I could imagine a Discworld god of torch changing.
Rest in peace, Pratchett
Kiido11 tfw you have a copy of 'Eric' that says he's still alive
A little bit of him will always live on in his books, eh?
Yep, they would be like: are you dumb? How elese should this work?
And I thought Death was a busy guy
The answer, as always, is "A Wizard did it"
only on xena!.
Going into a room full of zombies to try and shed some light -- sounds a LOT like my last job... :)
+Dave H among my other crimes...
That job being?
I'm glad I had the parents I had as a kid; I grew up out-bush and was an adventurous child who liked rock-climbing and cave-exploring. On one childhood adventure one of the other kids suggested we make a torch out of spinifex grass (mostly because we needed light to explore the cave by but also because we were kids and kids love playing with fire). Fortunately, my dad caught us before we could go ahead with our plan and gave us battery torches instead and explained that having fire and smoke in a tight space (like a cave) would easily end up with one - or all - of us dying inside from smoke inhalation or setting ourselves on fire and that it was "a bloody stupid idea".
Which is why when I got around to playing D&D I picked a hooded lantern every time at character creation (bullseye lantern if I could afford one). Plus the extra bottles of oil made good ambush weapons against an enemy who DID use a torch ^-^
In Far Cry 3 and Assassin's Creed, the burning torches are also present inside the ancient Ruins or brurried secret tombs that nobody has been to for centuries.
DESPITE THE FACT THAT THERE"S NO MAGIC INVOLVED IN THESE SERIES.
+MariusThePaladin
Assasins creed
no magic
And lets just forget about that magic sword that Jason finds while Indiana Jonesing around an ancient ruin. And that magic compass he uses to find it.
+MariusThePaladin Excuse me but I vaguely remember my sister's temple having torches on the OUTSIDE of the temple where there was plenty of air flow.
there's magic in both those series
>people saying that there is magic in Assassins Creed.
Arthur C. Clarke must be rolling on his grave
This is what I love about this channel and others like it. A good, clear-headed history lesson delivered with just enough sass and humor to make the lesson stick. Honestly, I'd never given torches a second thought, until now. Thanks Lindybeige!
It's becoming increasingly more common for the protagonist to enter abandoned buildings lit by torches, candles or lamps.
But then I'm reminded of how many American films show abandoned factories that still have the power turned on. Or abandoned buildings full of furniture.
Then there is the zombie show where a house has an immaculate garden and nary a trace of dust to be seen two years after the initial outbreak. All this while been in the plains of 'Tornado Alley' where vicious winds are common.
+Aadil Shah
What baffles me even more is when the protagonist enters a dark, abandoned building and then all the so far unlit torches catch fire on their own for no reason other than the presence of the main hero in the room.
***** Well, if it's fantasy, then magic. No problem.
If it's an airtight, sealed crypt and the protagonist has just opened it to the air, then science and no problem. (Except, possibly, anachronistic.)
But I do see how that seems very weird.
I like even my fantasy shows to seem at least reasonably plausible. Unless it's Spaceballs. P
+Aadil Shah That's nothing. How about the various movies, TV shows, and games set centuries into a post-apocalyptic future, but the machines of our era still somehow magically work? Or movies from PLANET OF THE APES to THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW in which the Statue of Liberty is apparently as resistant to damage as though it were carved out of solid steel (but somehow able to support its own weight), rather than being thin sheeting over a scaffold?
+Aadil Shah you'd be surprised how much is left in some abandoned buildings and ghost towns....sad how wasteful people can be when the idea of profit is taken away....
Franklin Blankenship
Actually, it is concern for profit that likely causes people to leave things behind. It can be a waste of time (=$) to clean up after oneself, and in many cases it is not worthwhile to pack things up and move them. I remember that thought suddenly dawning on me when I was moving back home from Germany many years ago; I had only so much room in my luggage, and it made no sense to take that up with socks and underwear for more than about 3 days.
Don't forget, your pitch will melt and leave flaming drops of liquid fire everywhere. Not so great in the woods...believe me, I've tried.
Not the yellow ends. I laughed more than I probably should have.
Actually, the way I always played it as a boy was with taking down light sources. The characters with the lights had figures which I BluTacked to large yellow tiddleywinks.
Play Skyrim, where every dungeon is full of lit torches and braziers
+John Johnson don't forget the miraculously fresh apples
+comediac Witcher has torches in dungeons only in standby, so if you want light you need ti light them.
+comediac Not to mention zombies.
+John Johnson There is a mod to actually have people in dungeons change out torches.
John Johnson Shame!
Only joking, there's nothing wrong with that of course but yeah you're missing out mate.
I just want to say thank you so much for this video. It's stuck with me more than any of your others, and I think it's because "magical" torches that are always lit and don't have any bad consequences are something I've been guilty of as a fantasy writer. I just wrote a novel last month that takes place almost solely inside a castle, and I took this advice to heart and always made sure to mention the presence of a lamp. If my character woke up in a room with a torch that was lit, I made sure to mention that somebody must have been there not very long ago, to light said torch.
I'm sure I've still made a ton of mistakes with torches and indoor lighting, but it's something I'll be sure to spend some time on in my edits.
That is what Gnomes are for - douse them properly in oil and they stay lit of hours.
Done in History with human torches.
for those who played Far Cry 4 doesn't pagan call you once and ask who the hell lights all those candles across Kyrat?
+themonkeywarrior111 In Far Cry 3 there are toruches are bonfire in every god damn ancient secret tombs... :(
themonkeywarrior111 yep
yeah in a room full of zombies, the most unrealistic thing is the fact that torches are burning
griffknox Well at least the zombies were real.
griffknox oh god you're one of *those* people.. news flash: fantasy is not an excuse for ignoring physics and common sense!! If it were, then why didn't Frodo just fly all the way to mount doom at light speed? What, in a movie where there are Nazgul and orcs, you'd care about a half-man flying at light speed?
Take a chill pill, stonedheart, its just a joke...no need for news flashes and light speed or whatever.
griffknox Forgive me my temper, it's just so aggravating to see this argument be used seriously that I can't tell when it's humorous
Lady Stoneheart You call yourself Stoneheart? And here you beg for forgiveness like some god fearing peasant? Shame on you!
In war for setting light to things, perhaps for some special outdoor occasions, but not every day use.
I think this series about torches deserves more views!
People have always hated the logic I used for lighting sources in my D&D and Hackmaster games - except one enterprising individual who used the logic behind all of my add hock rules to snuff out a Red Dragon. Used a force bubble spell around the dragons head as it used it's breath weapon; Though immune to fire he took a bet on it being just as weak to smoke inhalation as any other breathing entity...he was, in fact, correct.
Phillip Freeman And oxygen deprivation.
What are you guys are talking about?
I appreciate that you went back in time to create this footage for us, Llyod.
Thank you for this great point. Never occurred to me to think about it this way!
the thing that makes your channel much more interesting is that you sometimes think about details that are not directly connected with the main topic
That sweeping transition with the torch's flame was a rather nifty effect
In most illustrations I've seen of torches, their usage, such as lighting things on fire, or melting wax or tar for on sight use, suggest they were used more for their heat than their light.
The world depicted had a clear historical tech level, with magical things added as a new and unfamiliar curse.
Thank You!
I have been railing at movies for years over thr handling of torches, lanterns, and candles.
Obviously, the directors never endured a power outage.
R
Remember finding this video on the Dwarf Fortress forums couple years ago, didn't realize that it was Lindybeige
No, it's a public park in a city, but one where I knew there is a secluded steep-sided quarry. Once the camera adjusts to torchlight, the faint starlight and light pollution becomes an irrelevance.
The could get sticky, and so leave burning bits of themselves on the ground when you picked them up again.
Yes, try them not lit first. As a juggling instructor, I advise you to learn clubs first, and warm up before lighting them.
Juggling torches in the dark is (in my opinion) very difficult, as the flames leave you night-blind, making the handles very hard to see (that's why they're usually wrapped with reflective tape) Warming up before lighting the torch allows muscle memory help you predict where the handles will be if you can't see them. With much practice, I t is possible to juggle blindfolded
Another quick juggling piece of advice, your hands should be closer to the neck of the torch, closer to the center of gravity. This will give you much better control of the club, and it will be easier catch the handles.
Kudos for being willing to attempt torch juggling in front of such a large audience, and still posting a less-than-successful result.
Did they save you from this cave you was trapped in?
I think he might have been imprisoned there!
There was a bizarre event in 1393 called the Bal des Ardents, in which the King of France, and several of his courtiers were wearing highly flammable "wild man" costumes at a party, when someone came in carrying a torch, and accidentally started a fire that burned some of them to death, the King only barely escaping with his life.
This is always a common bizarre thing in video games. Ancient temples unexplored for millenia - with freshly lit torches! Also enemies that, when killed, conveniently drop modern currency.
I just played an RPG on sunday. The players used light spells cast on coins set in helmets and similar things. Nobody had a torch. The orcs had infravision so they had no use for torches. When spilled oil did catch on fire, I had smoke starting to fill the cavern within seconds. I strive for realism in my world of magic.
See part three: alternatives...
candles work great for lighting dungeons. Lots of examples of old Mines in the US that where lit with candles. You would only keep the candles in the area you where working lit and extinguish those in areas you where leaving. Most often they'd notch a section of wall out for the candle and even today you can see the melted wax left behind.
I watched this video 4 years after it being published but could not stop myself from commenting. About the Solomon Kane part. For some reason, magical ever-burning torches don't seem that far-off, in a haunted church, to me. About the reason they where there? Well, you got me there, there is none, except mayhaps for aiding the people visiting their zombie ancestors.
One benefit to using torches underground (When exploring caves and such) is that is shows the changing oxygen levels. Of course a candle or lantern would do the same thing, but a torch will be more apparent. Just some wisdom I picked up from an Indiana Jones novel.
Damn near every video game with a medieval-ish setting has eternally burning smokeless torches illuminating every interior area.
When you got on about using tar or pitch for torches, it reminded me of a camping trip where I did make some torches using pine tar. One thing that became apperant as a problem was that once the pitch got hot enough to burn, it started to drip leaving little flaming puddles where ever I went.
Torchwood or candlewood and pine knots is what was used in brazier-like wrought iron cage like holders. Also torchwood or splint holders were used. Its well documented in the ancient literature.
I get the impression from period artwork that torches in the Middle Ages were made of bundles of reeds. And I also recall an American archaeological site, a cave, where remains of reed torches were found with the apparent purpose of illuminating said cave, although I don't think they were placed on the walls! They were of course carried in the hand and dropped when exhausted.
My favourite Medieval meme surely is torches during...Dalight. But another would be the Eternal Torch or Magic Torch. This would be the one that never goes out.
As an American, I was anxious to see what you meant by "torch."
Fun video.
Actually, in Skyrim it is canon that Draugr go about maintaining and cleaning their crypts. Guarding is actually supposed to be a secondary duty, since they don't tend to get many visitors (aside from the protagonist). One of their duties include maintaining the torches and braziers found throughout their crypt. Good to know Bethesda at least kind of took that into account.
I always imagine a sort of goblin/gremlin-janitor that goes around ancient dungeons that no one lives in lighting candles and torches etc
Another point to consider, particularly in a "castle" or "church" setting, is that the most of them are decorated rather richly (it's not just bare stone... unless it's marble, which would be fancy enough anyway). Tapestries, painted plaster, frescoes, posh woods (carved, varnished and/or painted), there's a lot of fancy stuff that a) you don't want to set on fire and b) you don't want to cover in soot and lampblack...
Then there are "Gone with the Wind" kerosene / paraffin lamps, ironically named thus as they appear in the 1939 film. Sadly, the style did not appear until 25 to 30 years after the American Civil War.
And if course, kerosene / paraffin lamps in any film set before about 1860 since the stuff wasn't invented until 1848 and the "common" flat wick burner for it was an 1855 development by Karl Rudolf Ditmar in Vienna. Such lamps did not become common until well after 1860.
No,no, no! You've got it all wrong LB! The sole purpose of having lots of torches in dungeons is to provide the prisoners with improvised weapons with which to beat the living stuffing out of the guards. Man alive, I thought that would've been obvious even captain obvious caught that one.
You are making a lot of sense, but I can imagine that wealthy people could have certain parts/routes of their house/castle/whatever permanently lit (or at least while they were awake). I don't want to question your expertise, but in this case I think you're underestimating (or understating) how labour intensive it was anyway to manage a large estate without modern convenience. I also think it's unlikely that torches were used, but a 'candle servant' or something is not unlikely to me at all. Ice cellars in warmer climates for example were also thought of as 'practical', eventhough the ice had to be transported off mountains constantly to maintain the temperature.
Nice video's, subscribed.
That 15’ x 15’ room would have one good feature: no monsters would lurk there, and any that entered it would soon exit.
Good points, The torches I make out of tar make a decent amount of black smoke witch is unhealthy no inhale. However I have only been using them outside. They are very effective to use as a becon to your friends or finding lost items hidden in the grass during night for example. I would become night blind if I used them when traveling though.
I just saw the Showtime series "The Borgias" and the first episode gave me high hopes for authenticity. Dark hallways with a few candles or oil lamps only where the people were; neat! Alas, another few episodes in the director decided torches were cooler looking and started using them en mass.
Thank whatever pantheon your adventurers follow for magic lights
I just found this channel. As a fantasy writer, I must say two things: 1. I'm in love, and 2. hats off to you Sir!
Imagine finding the entry to a cave going down in pitch black then rounding a corner and seeing him in full medieval attire juggling torches
Haha! Having Lindybeige as a DM, insisting on historical accuracy in the D&D game would be a hilarious surprise for your typical fantasy gamers. "Sorry. Your torches have filled the room with smoke. You can't breathe." "WHAT!?!" And I'm sure there are many other fantasy tropes that they would have that he would completely dash that would result in many character deaths.
I do not know of anywhere that has genuine medieval torch brackets on the walls. Are you sure that they were not Victorian or more modern, there to please the tourists?
As long as all the dungeon ceilings are high enough not to affect javelin range, I'm happy.
Perhaps, in very busy parts of the castle, where servants would be expected to need to scurry past many times in an evening.
Still not Dreadfully realistic, but I like Legend of Zelda. You get a candle, and have to light sconces and stuff in the dungeons yourself, and they burn out quickly.
Somewhere along the way, Hollywood has given us the impression that torches are more eternal than diamonds. Once set, they burn for all eternity, until by some magic or stray wind it is snuffed out.
well i think you could probably find a substance that doesn't produce as much smoke or smell as bad. During a trip in ancient towns in france, we were issued with "simple" torches that didn't make much smoke nor smell, the head seemed to be made by tying some sort of small rope around the end, and it was probably full of some sort of glue or resin like you said.
And i think they lasted about an hour, so i don't think it's that out of the question to have torches be used for adventurers in a fantasy world, as long as you're not exploring a whole town with one torch.
You can handwave a lot of these problem by introducing a specie of tree or sort of resin which doesn't exist IRL
Well, the psychotic priest did say he was taking care of the zombies, so why not even providing them with torches? =)
Another important thing that most people forget is Oxygen, even if the torch was smooth and made no smoke, a closed space might run out of oxygen fairly quickly with too many torches in there, dying out of CO2 or CO poisoning wouldn't be unlikely, plus it would be far less noticeable than smoke.
Cool video btw.
Wow. I actually feel stupid for never thinking about this. Thank you very much for the post, and for the juggling bit at the end.
I do love your videos for pointing out things that not many really question and that (the things) may seem rather ridiculous once you do question them.
In Dragon magazine one time it was posited that the torches had one further use than illumination and detecting air currents. If your dungeon crawling party noticed their torch flames turning blue, that was a sign to turn around and retreat to another place. The blue coloration of the flame indicated a gas buildup, a subtle DM warning that further progress would be a poor choice. ;)
Observations from the Bunker That would also go for lamps, though, wouldn't it?º
The worst part about this is not the smoke inhalation or the smell. It’s the fact that the orcs 500 yards down the hallway can smell your smoke, and know that you are coming, or they can follow your trail by the smell, even miles through a dungeon crawl. Given a long enough hallway they can also see your light. For so many reasons, torches are such a bad idea. Drow elves unite.
The ending is brilliance.
At the funeral, Agrath the Mighty might be described as '"another victim of 'adventurers' lung'".
An oil lamp that would burn for twenty hours and then just need refuelling was cheaper than having to buy a new torch every twenty minutes.
But if do a steel headed or even pure bamboo diesel torch (With sand inside to do diesel don't leak when move the torch, transforming a liquid fuel on a "solid" fuel) can last for about 4 hours, but sure diesel wasn't available at ancient times.. 😅
I burst out laughing when he was holding three torches at the beginning. It didn't occur to me that he would be juggling haha
Great vid again my man!!! Outstanding information on torches. I love the idea you gave about orcish dungeons with flumes. That makes a ton of sense. I cannot say thank you enough for posting these vids!! Great information and great entertainment!!!
One's enjoyment of movies sometimes depends on being able to hand wave or ignore dumb, illogical or lazy parts of them and just admire the combined craft of actors, writers, photographers, set, prop and costume "builders", and all the people doing the light, sound, logistics and business stuff, which against many factors result in an actually finished product.
great video! Hollywood has such a misunderstanding of torches and the like, good to see the actual truth of the matter!
I would love to see a series of videos discussing the design and make of various torches as shown in cinema & gaming, and an analysis of the effectiveness thereof.
I love that the lighting of the crypts is more far fetched than the zombie inhabitants
Flacking hell! He ACTUALLY tossed the suckers up and tried to catch 'em! 😳 Dang.
How did I miss this LindyBeige stuff so long ago? lol
I now picture a Airplane level parody movie that features medieval castles with electric lighting.
Well done sir..I had simply never considered that
in D&D I always equip my character with a bullseye lantern never torches.
If zombies can exist why not magic everlasting torches? I don't care in a fantasy universe, but in an actual medieval setting yeah this is ridiculous.
If eveything in the world is normal but the zombies you can't have one thing that is not explained at all.
That brings with it whole hosts of problems. If you have magic ever lasting fire, you suddenly have the perfect renewable energy source. They whole world should be industrializing very quickly. If it's a light source without heat, the whole thing with torches doesn't make much sense. There are better ways of carrying the fire around.
@johnfuse How?
Fantasy does not excuse impossibility.
Yeah, it's true if they at least TRY to explain it that way. Which is almost never the case, you just have to accept the fact that torches in this fantasy dungeon have been burning for 6 thousand years or try to invent an explanation yourself, which is like doing the homework for the author.
I agree with the point about abandoned dungeons with torch-lit corridors, but not so much with that it'd be impossible to be in a room with burning torches for a long period of time. In a CLOSED room with no ventilation, yes. But in most dungeon adventures, heroes don't bother closing the doors when they come in, and so it'd create a nice draft of air that would blow away the fumes. Take this video: you're standing in a room with burning torches for several minutes, and you're fine (I hope).
I was actually already implementing this into my games XD one player did however have a really cool idea. before an OUTDOOR battle he covered his mace in tar and lit it on fire. and started to catch everyone on fire while simultaneously beating the crap out of them. it was hilarious how it was described. "I start beating him to death as he runs around screaming!!" " as he wildly flails his arms you pound him to the ground and continuously smash him with your mace. with every hit he spasms into the air. you then also catch fire." "I charge head first into that group!!!" "a human torch rubs towards the group, screaming and wildly flailing his arms!"
You're completely right, of course, but regarding Solomon Kane, perhaps the villain that pushed him down there lit the torches.
"Not the yellow ends" got a hearty laugh out of me.
Enters ancient abandoned crypt- torches still lit after thousands of years. Video game logic LOL.
Unepic is a dungeon crawling videogame Castlevania style in which all the light sources are off and you have light them with your lighter, also it has very nice light effects.
In the movies, do you mean?
You'd think a room full of torches would stop zombies from spawning
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I'm very sorry
This is why in dnd always use an everburning torch if you can. 110 gp (in 3.5) only and never burns out and no smoke and no heat so you can just stuff it, lit, in your backpack