I wish they would put this information in the movie's metadata so we could display it and adjust our listening levels accordingly rather than just guessing.
I'm personally using the level of talking to choose how loud a movie should play. In a normal scene where people are talking I put it just about how loud it would be if they were talking in reality. Maybe a tad bit more. Are y'all doing it like this as well or what do you look at to set the volume?
Very good video, I've had my 7.3.4 system for about 6 years now and have struggled to understand reference level, until now. My room is 13'5" × 17' so it's pretty small. Reference level is pretty loud at my house.(-14, anthem 1140) I do listen at a level I like, which is louder than most people like that I have over. But now I know how close I am to reference when I'm watching a movie. Pretty cool, thanks.
Thank you for this video and sharing your knowledge on here. Do you know if the Kaleidescape versions of these films are being mixed the same way as the other home release versions or are they closer to the theater releases?
As always an amazing and insightful video!!! With regards to X curve and small room (and with your experience which is more than most!!) what would you typically roll off your high frequencies at when you calibrate a system? Currently I have a Trinnov and use the moderate setting. I’m curious now if I’m rolling off my highs too much?
I’ve been wondering the same thing myself lately. Such a difference in playback levels with the Master volume set at the same level between individual streaming services and multiple discs. Disney had to be mastering most of their content at lower levels. Also I have noticed that my playback level is significantly louder (at the same Master Volume) since I switched to my Marantz AV10 with Buckeye Amps connected via XLR compared to my old setup with a Denon 4300 and an Outlaw 7140 amp (for the bed layer). Doesn’t calibration with Audyssey MultEQ-X calibrate to hit around 75dB with the MV at 0dB. Stuff I could listen to at -5dB on the Denon seems like I’m being blown out of room even with the MV at -15dB on the AV10. I did customize the curve slightly with a 3dB bass shelf and a high pass shelf +1dB to +2dB but nothing major. Is the louder volume due to the XLR having a higher level pre-out signal?
Regarding the natural response of a speaker in a large auditorium, does it follow the X curve without or with room treatment? Audyssey argues that more reverberant rooms need more rolled off highs, i.e. smaller rooms need more rolled off highs, not less?
When you speak of reference level, what are you measuring? I was at an AES meeting with Tom Holman a few years ago and he made it very clear. I don't remember the exact value, but it's something like this: Dialog should be 82 db in a movie theater and 78 db in a home. The way those numbers were determined was that he took a poll from dozens of seasoned mix engineers and asked them what level sounds right, and then took the average. There was only 1 or 2 db of difference between the professionals. He also took a poll of his USC students, and even among the students there was only 2-3 db of difference. When I see TH-camrs talking about "listening at reference" what are they talking abut? The number on their processor? And yes, kids movies are LOUD!! I assume that's because homes with kids are loud too. Mom can turn the volume down and the kids will still hear everything.
I generally listen to movies at - 10db, any louder and it just doesn't sound good in my living room. I live in an older villa with windows that rattle so I'm really limited. For that reason I don't think there is a hard and fast rule when it comes to this. Do what sounds good for you.
Hello sir. Sorry for my somewhat maybe #stupid question. But whenever i calibrate using audyssey. My bass levels are always 3-4db lower than my bedlayers. It´s no issue really but i was wondering why. I do use my spl meter and i do set my system to 75db all around and i pretty much just raise the level on my two subs to haver that good punch. I got an X15+ M&K sub infront with my S150 speakers (also M&K) And i just got a cinema sub from a spanish company with two 18´s that are powered by my crown 2502 in bridgemode (2400W) And omg did that do lots more for my bass. I got my X15+ in the front right corner and the other is left rear corner. I use the Marantz Cinema 40 and i must say that adding that sub did wonders. My overall bass got alot better. But i am stil waiting to get my room done 100% so i can use Dirac. Sorry for the long comment but i actually just wanted to ask about audyssey. Btw i hope you and your family had a great x-mas.
As far as I'm concerned, there's far too many variables that come into play to have just one set standard to blanket everything. It doesn't make sense. I agree with everyone else here who has mentioned to just list what the movie was mastered at and leave it at that.
i just wish we had a LFE volume control for us with stereo hifi systems, maybe something that just lower everything else than LFE so we get the LFE up to full surround standard.
If you are listening from a stereo source you will not be getting any LFE at all, only bass from the main channels. You'll need a reciever or blu ray player with a .1 out. However I've found that the majority of the bass is present in the screen channels and if you boost it via EQ or turning the sub up, it will still be a very similar experience to having LFE, just the balance of some sound effects to others or the music will not be quite right.
@@CycleCalm i did used to turn up the active subwoofer for movies but its not quite the same. now i have two stereo passive subwoofers with a crossover higher than LFE. just wish there was a possibility to have LFE as a separate channel with volume control, so its mixed in with the two channel output. the source audio for the movie are already surround with all the channels, how hard can it be to volume adjust them in the media player?
This is exactly why audyssey dynamic eq doesn’t work from a logical standpoint. The only one size fits all solution is to settle on a house curve that sounds good to you at the typical volumes you listen at.
Let's Correct this misunderstanding Reference level is capability similar to the 300 nits statement all of these items can be fixed my headroom is 130db @ 4500 cubic feet. In modern digital we have control technically remastering on the fly.
Awesome video, When talking about dB 75/85 /105 That's at the mlp, As you know you lose about 1db per ft , So that 85db mlp , that speaker needs to have 120db head room , or you hitting distortion 😢 That also needs to be taken into consideration
@@JSchurter you don't need 85dB at MLP... usually 75, with+20dB peak, hence you need 95dB at MLP. If your MLP is at 12 ft, then your speaker needs to play at 101 dB at 3ft which is the distance used to calculate speaker sensitivity...there is almost zero speaker that can play 120dB as you said ...
I always got the impression back when I was reading all the curmudgeonly forums was that "reference" level meant about $500 dollars in front end. So something to easily surpass. Reference gear was always some midrange stuff. I think it's meaningless.
Unfortunately that was the case with Gladiator 2. In cinema the dynamic was really dull, at home that was also the case. Most sound effects were not much louder that the voices and I had to turn up the level so much that the loudness of voices was on the border of too loud to actually get some nice kick when there were special effects. Really disappointing. Older movies from around the 2000s are much more dynamic for some reason. I watched Space Cowboys after Gladiator 2. Much better. It hat Kick and "Zing" to the special effects.
Personally I have found success setting normal dialogue volume to around 75dB, and the rest of the mix will fall into place, not losing quiet details nor having my ears blasted off (as they often are in the cinema, so I'm actually thankfully for just a tad less dynamic range). However when it comes to streaming I really wish these services would offer a cinematic mix and a compressed mix, like dolby DRC can on discs. I know netflix says they have a different mix when accessed from mobile devices, so it's already possible. Some of the streaming services have such painfully obvious hard limiting in scenes, and yet you still get posts going viral on social media constantly with audio noobs complaining about it being too dynamic. Let's have a diet and full fat mix instead of this halfway house that pleases nobody!
I do this as well. Matt did a previous Video talking about -20dbfs pink noise at 78-82 db was reference for the near field home Atmos mix with. On my Anthem that was volume level of -23 to -19. For -23 that ends up with most movies where the dialog in scenes without much else going on to be around 75-79 db. A lot of movies mixed in the last 2 years are being mastered much quieter. So I end going to like -16 to get the same level as most movies at -23. Anyways, so what do know to check is find a quiet part of the movie where there is just dialog. Pull out the phone with a db meter app and if the voices are hitting around 75db, everything else should be good if you have your system dialed in correct.
What I am referring to is that they lower the volume on kids movies, so to get to my preferred volume, I have to put up the volume 10-15 db more than normal movies.
@@RobertPage1968 with dynamic reduction the loud sound become reduced so everything is louder. or you can say that you need lower volume to hear the voices clearly.
For me, 105/115 dB is not even close to loud. The sound of a real gunshot at 1 meter distance is about 140 dB. The sniper rifle reaches 160 dB. An artillery shelling is also within those values. So, hearing gunshots at 105 dB and cannon shots at 115 dB is not nearly enough for the lifelike experience we all are trying to achieve when building a dedicated home theater. I know that, at those insane loudness levels, you might end up getting deaf, but today’s situation is a bit absurd, too. Remember that scene in Black Hawk Down when a soldier loses his hearing because the skirmish is too loud? As a viewer, I didn’t understand why it happened because the sounds I’d heard hadn’t been loud enough to make me deaf. That fact by itself dragged me out of action and made it clear for me that I was not inside the movie (as the director probably wanted me to believe) but in a safe and comfortable room. Of course, reaching those loudness levels would require equipping home theaters with public cinema speakers. And that’s an unrealistic scenario. But when someone says he prefers listening at -10, I feel the urge to ask: “What was the point of building your home theater then? Why not just go with a soundbar?”
This has to be one of the most comical comments I’ve seen. Do you wear earplugs at the gun range? If yes, then why? It’s ruining the real life experience! So you want to wear them in your theater too, or you want hearing loss?🤦🏻♂️
@@Gradus810 "Remember that scene in Black Hawk Down when a soldier loses his hearing because the skirmish is too loud? As a viewer, I didn’t understand why it happened because the sounds I’d heard hadn’t been loud enough to make me deaf." Yes I read what you wrote, but this statement tells me you may have a problem translating movie loudness levels to what they would be in real life. The vast majority of people don't need actual gun firing levels of SPL to understand that guns are louder than they are portrayed in the movies and their system. In the movie he literally says right before "Don't fire that thing so close to my head. I can barely hear as it is." Then they run to the next spot and the guy starts firing right above his head and he yells "What I just tell you?", and then he fires more. If you didn't understand why he lost his hearing after they literally tell you it's louder, and the sound is a little louder and bassier, then I don't know what to tell you. IMO sure they should've made it a larger different between levels, but it was enough to understand, especially after he tells you it's louder.
@@andrewskaterrr You don't get it. All I'm saying is that the level of 105/115 dB is not as high as many people say it is. However, if we agree in advance that the listening experience in a home theater will only remotely resemble what we hear in real life, then the difference between a dedicated HT and a TV with a soundbar boils down to the extent of an allowance we make pretending that we believe in what's happening on the screen. With a soundbar, this allowance is very big; in a home theater, it's smaller. But in both cases, we don't get the truly immersive experience. As such, watching movies at -10 puts the viewer even farther from that unachievable goal. Sorry, I'm not a naitive speaker. Hope I made my point clear enough.
@@Gradus810 thinking that the only issue with a soundbar is max SPL is your first issue. A 7.4.4 setup at 70dB will blow away a soundbar at 70dB. Saying 105dB isn't "loud" only applies when compared to deafening levels. For humans we can only handle so much, so yes its "loud" to us, and without trying damage our hearing. Recommended safe listening levels and maximum time limits according to the U.S. Federal Government - Occupational Health and Safety Administration (OHSA) 90 dB SPL - 8 hours 92 dB SPL - 6 hours 95 dB SPL - 4 hours 97 dB SPL - 3 hours 100 dB SPL - 2 hours 102 dB SPL - 1.5 hours 105 dB SPL - 1 hour 110 dB SPL - 30 minutes 115 dB SPL - 15 minutes 116 dB SPL and above - 0 minutes
Just as a point of interest, Dolby's Atmos Room Design Tool for mix rooms defaults to a 79dB monitoring level.
I wish they would put this information in the movie's metadata so we could display it and adjust our listening levels accordingly rather than just guessing.
This would be so helpful, honestly.
I'm personally using the level of talking to choose how loud a movie should play.
In a normal scene where people are talking I put it just about how loud it would be if they were talking in reality. Maybe a tad bit more.
Are y'all doing it like this as well or what do you look at to set the volume?
Very good video, I've had my 7.3.4 system for about 6 years now and have struggled to understand reference level, until now. My room is 13'5" × 17' so it's pretty small. Reference level is pretty loud at my house.(-14, anthem 1140) I do listen at a level I like, which is louder than most people like that I have over. But now I know how close I am to reference when I'm watching a movie. Pretty cool, thanks.
Thank you for this video and sharing your knowledge on here. Do you know if the Kaleidescape versions of these films are being mixed the same way as the other home release versions or are they closer to the theater releases?
Thanks for asking my question so thoroughly, very helpful and informative
You are very welcome!
Great information, I appreciate the video !
Thank you 👏🏼👍🏼✌🏼🏴🇬🇧
As always an amazing and insightful video!!!
With regards to X curve and small room (and with your experience which is more than most!!) what would you typically roll off your high frequencies at when you calibrate a system?
Currently I have a Trinnov and use the moderate setting. I’m curious now if I’m rolling off my highs too much?
I’ve been wondering the same thing myself lately. Such a difference in playback levels with the Master volume set at the same level between individual streaming services and multiple discs. Disney had to be mastering most of their content at lower levels.
Also I have noticed that my playback level is significantly louder (at the same Master Volume) since I switched to my Marantz AV10 with Buckeye Amps connected via XLR compared to my old setup with a Denon 4300 and an Outlaw 7140 amp (for the bed layer).
Doesn’t calibration with Audyssey MultEQ-X calibrate to hit around 75dB with the MV at 0dB. Stuff I could listen to at -5dB on the Denon seems like I’m being blown out of room even with the MV at -15dB on the AV10. I did customize the curve slightly with a 3dB bass shelf and a high pass shelf +1dB to +2dB but nothing major.
Is the louder volume due to the XLR having a higher level pre-out signal?
Regarding the natural response of a speaker in a large auditorium, does it follow the X curve without or with room treatment? Audyssey argues that more reverberant rooms need more rolled off highs, i.e. smaller rooms need more rolled off highs, not less?
When you speak of reference level, what are you measuring?
I was at an AES meeting with Tom Holman a few years ago and he made it very clear. I don't remember the exact value, but it's something like this: Dialog should be 82 db in a movie theater and 78 db in a home. The way those numbers were determined was that he took a poll from dozens of seasoned mix engineers and asked them what level sounds right, and then took the average. There was only 1 or 2 db of difference between the professionals. He also took a poll of his USC students, and even among the students there was only 2-3 db of difference.
When I see TH-camrs talking about "listening at reference" what are they talking abut? The number on their processor?
And yes, kids movies are LOUD!! I assume that's because homes with kids are loud too. Mom can turn the volume down and the kids will still hear everything.
Reference level 85dB at MV-20dB has been for years. Increase your LFE 6-8dB to make Top Gun Maverick stand out
I generally listen to movies at - 10db, any louder and it just doesn't sound good in my living room. I live in an older villa with windows that rattle so I'm really limited. For that reason I don't think there is a hard and fast rule when it comes to this. Do what sounds good for you.
Is 90dB peak 0dBfs? So then 72dB is -18dBfs? Or is 90 dB peak -15dBfs (105-90=15) and 72dB is -33dbfs?
Hello sir. Sorry for my somewhat maybe #stupid question. But whenever i calibrate using audyssey. My bass levels are always 3-4db lower than my bedlayers. It´s no issue really but i was wondering why. I do use my spl meter and i do set my system to 75db all around and i pretty much just raise the level on my two subs to haver that good punch.
I got an X15+ M&K sub infront with my S150 speakers (also M&K) And i just got a cinema sub from a spanish company with two 18´s that are powered by my crown 2502 in bridgemode (2400W)
And omg did that do lots more for my bass. I got my X15+ in the front right corner and the other is left rear corner. I use the Marantz Cinema 40 and i must say that adding that sub did wonders. My overall bass got alot better. But i am stil waiting to get my room done 100% so i can use Dirac.
Sorry for the long comment but i actually just wanted to ask about audyssey.
Btw i hope you and your family had a great x-mas.
As far as I'm concerned, there's far too many variables that come into play to have just one set standard to blanket everything. It doesn't make sense. I agree with everyone else here who has mentioned to just list what the movie was mastered at and leave it at that.
i just wish we had a LFE volume control for us with stereo hifi systems, maybe something that just lower everything else than LFE so we get the LFE up to full surround standard.
If you are listening from a stereo source you will not be getting any LFE at all, only bass from the main channels.
You'll need a reciever or blu ray player with a .1 out.
However I've found that the majority of the bass is present in the screen channels and if you boost it via EQ or turning the sub up, it will still be a very similar experience to having LFE, just the balance of some sound effects to others or the music will not be quite right.
@@CycleCalm i did used to turn up the active subwoofer for movies but its not quite the same.
now i have two stereo passive subwoofers with a crossover higher than LFE.
just wish there was a possibility to have LFE as a separate channel with volume control, so its mixed in with the two channel output.
the source audio for the movie are already surround with all the channels, how hard can it be to volume adjust them in the media player?
This is exactly why audyssey dynamic eq doesn’t work from a logical standpoint. The only one size fits all solution is to settle on a house curve that sounds good to you at the typical volumes you listen at.
So 75dB isn’t the “standard” anymore for home cinema? Is there a way to get an “new” average number?
Let's Correct this misunderstanding Reference level is capability similar to the 300 nits statement all of these items can be fixed my headroom is 130db @ 4500 cubic feet.
In modern digital we have control technically remastering on the fly.
Man this reference level Rabbit Hole keeps getting deeper. I wish they'd just put the Reference Level in the credits or on the movie case slip cover
I agree
How do you know that you are watching the movie at 72dB? It seems impossible to know because every movie has different mastering levels
TBH I found your casual style of wear much more pleasing. Thank you for your wisdom Matt.
Awesome video,
When talking about dB 75/85 /105
That's at the mlp,
As you know you lose about 1db per ft ,
So that 85db mlp , that speaker needs to have 120db head room , or you hitting distortion 😢
That also needs to be taken into consideration
Actually you lose 3dB spl when doubling the distance, this is quite different than -1dB per ft
In my experience is it more accurate to say 2x distance = -3dB then "x length = -y dB"
@@aurelienduplan9139 in winisd it's 1db per ft ,
@aurelienduplan9139 85bd at 1ft and the mlp is 10/12ft
@@JSchurter you don't need 85dB at MLP... usually 75, with+20dB peak, hence you need 95dB at MLP. If your MLP is at 12 ft, then your speaker needs to play at 101 dB at 3ft which is the distance used to calculate speaker sensitivity...there is almost zero speaker that can play 120dB as you said ...
I always got the impression back when I was reading all the curmudgeonly forums was that "reference" level meant about $500 dollars in front end. So something to easily surpass. Reference gear was always some midrange stuff. I think it's meaningless.
Unfortunately that was the case with Gladiator 2. In cinema the dynamic was really dull, at home that was also the case. Most sound effects were not much louder that the voices and I had to turn up the level so much that the loudness of voices was on the border of too loud to actually get some nice kick when there were special effects. Really disappointing. Older movies from around the 2000s are much more dynamic for some reason. I watched Space Cowboys after Gladiator 2. Much better. It hat Kick and "Zing" to the special effects.
Yeah ? Try Twisters 2024 Atmos. This is the most fucked up movie soundtrack ever😅
Personally I have found success setting normal dialogue volume to around 75dB, and the rest of the mix will fall into place, not losing quiet details nor having my ears blasted off (as they often are in the cinema, so I'm actually thankfully for just a tad less dynamic range).
However when it comes to streaming I really wish these services would offer a cinematic mix and a compressed mix, like dolby DRC can on discs.
I know netflix says they have a different mix when accessed from mobile devices, so it's already possible.
Some of the streaming services have such painfully obvious hard limiting in scenes, and yet you still get posts going viral on social media constantly with audio noobs complaining about it being too dynamic.
Let's have a diet and full fat mix instead of this halfway house that pleases nobody!
I do this as well. Matt did a previous Video talking about -20dbfs pink noise at 78-82 db was reference for the near field home Atmos mix with. On my Anthem that was volume level of -23 to -19. For -23 that ends up with most movies where the dialog in scenes without much else going on to be around 75-79 db. A lot of movies mixed in the last 2 years are being mastered much quieter. So I end going to like -16 to get the same level as most movies at -23. Anyways, so what do know to check is find a quiet part of the movie where there is just dialog. Pull out the phone with a db meter app and if the voices are hitting around 75db, everything else should be good if you have your system dialed in correct.
The cat is bass loading in the back wall seat.
So what do we calibrate our levels too
Poes Knows
Explains why I have to push the volume up so much while watching Pixar movies.
its actually the opposite, with higher volume pixar movies are louder.
What I am referring to is that they lower the volume on kids movies, so to get to my preferred volume, I have to put up the volume 10-15 db more than normal movies.
@@RobertPage1968 with dynamic reduction the loud sound become reduced so everything is louder.
or you can say that you need lower volume to hear the voices clearly.
love your videos and content but that was just a ramble and as clear as mud
Ugh. This sounds like dumbing mixes down for the soundbar crowd...
I agree
For me, 105/115 dB is not even close to loud. The sound of a real gunshot at 1 meter distance is about 140 dB. The sniper rifle reaches 160 dB. An artillery shelling is also within those values. So, hearing gunshots at 105 dB and cannon shots at 115 dB is not nearly enough for the lifelike experience we all are trying to achieve when building a dedicated home theater.
I know that, at those insane loudness levels, you might end up getting deaf, but today’s situation is a bit absurd, too. Remember that scene in Black Hawk Down when a soldier loses his hearing because the skirmish is too loud? As a viewer, I didn’t understand why it happened because the sounds I’d heard hadn’t been loud enough to make me deaf. That fact by itself dragged me out of action and made it clear for me that I was not inside the movie (as the director probably wanted me to believe) but in a safe and comfortable room.
Of course, reaching those loudness levels would require equipping home theaters with public cinema speakers. And that’s an unrealistic scenario. But when someone says he prefers listening at -10, I feel the urge to ask: “What was the point of building your home theater then? Why not just go with a soundbar?”
This has to be one of the most comical comments I’ve seen. Do you wear earplugs at the gun range? If yes, then why? It’s ruining the real life experience! So you want to wear them in your theater too, or you want hearing loss?🤦🏻♂️
@andrewskaterrr Have you read what I wrote about becoming deaf? And about the unrealistic scenario? If yes, then why do you ask silly questions?
@@Gradus810 "Remember that scene in Black Hawk Down when a soldier loses his hearing because the skirmish is too loud? As a viewer, I didn’t understand why it happened because the sounds I’d heard hadn’t been loud enough to make me deaf."
Yes I read what you wrote, but this statement tells me you may have a problem translating movie loudness levels to what they would be in real life. The vast majority of people don't need actual gun firing levels of SPL to understand that guns are louder than they are portrayed in the movies and their system. In the movie he literally says right before "Don't fire that thing so close to my head. I can barely hear as it is." Then they run to the next spot and the guy starts firing right above his head and he yells "What I just tell you?", and then he fires more. If you didn't understand why he lost his hearing after they literally tell you it's louder, and the sound is a little louder and bassier, then I don't know what to tell you. IMO sure they should've made it a larger different between levels, but it was enough to understand, especially after he tells you it's louder.
@@andrewskaterrr You don't get it. All I'm saying is that the level of 105/115 dB is not as high as many people say it is. However, if we agree in advance that the listening experience in a home theater will only remotely resemble what we hear in real life, then the difference between a dedicated HT and a TV with a soundbar boils down to the extent of an allowance we make pretending that we believe in what's happening on the screen. With a soundbar, this allowance is very big; in a home theater, it's smaller. But in both cases, we don't get the truly immersive experience. As such, watching movies at -10 puts the viewer even farther from that unachievable goal.
Sorry, I'm not a naitive speaker. Hope I made my point clear enough.
@@Gradus810 thinking that the only issue with a soundbar is max SPL is your first issue. A 7.4.4 setup at 70dB will blow away a soundbar at 70dB. Saying 105dB isn't "loud" only applies when compared to deafening levels. For humans we can only handle so much, so yes its "loud" to us, and without trying damage our hearing.
Recommended safe listening levels and maximum time limits according to the U.S. Federal Government - Occupational Health and Safety Administration (OHSA)
90 dB SPL - 8 hours
92 dB SPL - 6 hours
95 dB SPL - 4 hours
97 dB SPL - 3 hours
100 dB SPL - 2 hours
102 dB SPL - 1.5 hours
105 dB SPL - 1 hour
110 dB SPL - 30 minutes
115 dB SPL - 15 minutes
116 dB SPL and above - 0 minutes
You are one of the MOST underrated audiophile channels on TH-cam.. I tip my hat to you, sir. 🥹😎🙌🏼🙌🏼
Appreciate that
How I rough guess for music. Turn it up till you hear the hiss, breaths and small details. If they werent meant ro be heard they wouldnt be there.