ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- Wobbly Phil follows up on the comments on his previous video which suggested that modern retro motorcycles like Triumph's may have contributed to falling prices in the classics market.
Link to previous video: Why Classic Motorcycles Are Not An Investment:
• Did Triumph Kill The C...
Link to excellent How Many Left? website:
www.howmanylef...
Don't forget to join us on Facebook too! www.facebook.c...
#classicmotorcycles #1970smotorcycles #Triumph #nortonmotorcycles
Hi everyone - thanks for the spectacular response to this video. So many comments! 😅 I'm trying to get around to reading them all, but I'm scanning a lot of them on a classic retro smart phone so do bear with me. And if I seem to have replied irrelevantly to any, it's because after 50 years riding motorcycles my digits aren't as nimble as they used to be! 🤣 Thanks again.
On my retirement, I was going to buy a classic British bike, but after looking at prices, I bought a new Royal Enfield Classic 350. It has all the looks and character, plus it always gets me home and doesn’t leak oil all over my garage floor. By contrast, the last two times I have ridden with mates on their classic bikes, they suffered breakdowns and had to limp home or be recovered. Modern classics make a lot of sense 😀
They certainly do! Thanks for the comment. 😊
I purchased a Triumph Adventurer 900 new from Fowlers in Bristol. It was a really solid motorcycle. I purchased it because when I was young I could not afford a Triumph.
I have owned other retro bikes since then.
Would I buy a motorcycle now? No, the roads are unsafe with pot holes, tarmac patches and bad car and van drivers.
It is mostly old men like me that would buy a classic bike, but not now.
Completely get what you’re saying there about potholes and bad (sometimes even untaxed, uninsured and disqualified drivers). I was knocked off my bike a few years ago by a guy who then got back in his car and pissed off. Almost certainly he wasn’t insured or even qualified. The cops in London did nothing, they didn’t even attend the scene. So yes, I get it. Thanks for the comment. 😊
From Kentucky USA...I luvs me some Bonneville.
If it makes you happy it's right for you
For me, I was never going to buy a classic motorcycle. My first experience of bikes was sitting on the back of an uncle's 70's Bonneville, so there was a healthy dose of nostalgia. However, when it comes to owning a vehicle, I didn't want carbs, I didn't want unsafe brakes. The modern classic allows me to enjoy that nostalgia without ownership becoming a chore. If the Bonneville wasn't available today, I'd own a Japanese sports bike. So from my perspective, Triumph have opened a new market, not cannibalised an existing one.
Interesting perspective. I own a classic, the T160, and a couple of modern bikes for when the Trident doesn’t start, a necessary precaution! I guess I’m fortunate to be able to afford that, but if it was down to having just the one bike I’d definitely go for a modern retro or a Japanese rocket ship, like you. Thanks for the comment. 😊
G'day from WA. Good points well put!
@stevezodiac575 And a jolly good afternoon from deepest, darkest England, sir!
In my opinion, the brakes in the late sixties and the seventies were better then the abilities of most riders.
Riding a bike with carbs, I can help myself in most cases whereas injection is another cup a tea.
That goes for the coil ignition as well.
Triumph has done SO MANY things right since it's rebirth, I only wish they had picked up Norton from the Kenny Dreer days and brought it back in a practical affordable way... I'm an old timer and lived through the British motorcycle boom years of the 1960s, loved Norton Commandos from 1970 on...
I agree, they should have brought Norton back into the Triumph fold. They’d have made a much better job of it than that pension-stealing Garner bloke. Although Norton seem to be back on their feet with new owners and a new factory, I feel as if the damage has been done and they’ve got a very steep hill to climb if they’re going to polish the tarnished image left by the Garner era. Thanks for the comment. 😊
If you dont mind spannering an old Bonnie it will pay you back with a soundtrack no modern Hinckley one can match ,and as bikes are now mostly a leisure activity i can tolerate the extra effort ,i have a hinkley 900 trident i bought it as a hack , it does everything ok , but very little else , personally have little time for retro bikes from any manufacturer, its like watching a group of bad Elvis impersonators ,they might fool you for a minute or two but no soul
I couldn't agree more! Thanks for the comment. :)
It's my misfortune to disagree. My mental archetype of a motorcycle hasn't changed since the 1970s. The petrol tank sits where it has been since tanks stopped being flat, engines are exposed, mudguards are substantial and body enclosure is for scooters. Within those modest requirements, I'm openminded about electric starters, unit construction gearboxes, halogen bulbs and other novelties. I'm more pedantic about adjusting my own tappets and not requiring software updates, and prefer motorcycles without an exoskeleton or digital readouts. Beyond that, naming strategies like modern classic and neo-classic can be dismissed alongside terms like entry level, as marketing nonsense. I may be stuck in a pre-Katana worldview, but if manufacturers make bikes in shapes I like I'm happy to buy them, without the provenance of a tax disc. In short, it's less back to the future pastiche, than a return of core values.
Yep the old Bonnie sound track.
A syncopation of piston slap rattly tappets and the sound of another valve guide disappearing down the exhaust pipe.
I’ll keep my 2007 Hinkley Thruxton thanks.
No one gives the retro bikes their due; many riders just want a motorcycle with a teardrop tank, clean looking simple engine and clssic style. No one asked us 40 years go if we would like all motorcyles split into race replicas or choppers or enduros. We wanted all arounders that functioned well and had cleam lines - not an insect face, not a screaming eagle chrome air cleaner, not knobby tires. We didn't want to be leaned forward like a racer or leaned way back like in a recliner. We wanted a basic motorcycle that looked like a motorcycle! I think thats what the Bonnys provide. In my case, my Bonny is not laden down with nostalgia baggage so much as its free of crotch rocket and Easy Rider baggage.
I like what you’re saying there. I like clean, traditional lines too. So much so that I’ve rarely even put baggage on any of my bikes, I normally just bung it all into a backpack. Thanks for the comment. 😊
I think Les Harris is the one who actually built the post 1983 Triumphs out of spare parts., not John Bloor. Bloor I don't think ever touched a wrench in his life. I can't resist this kind of trivia chat 😁.
Bloor has got a lot of nerve, not equipping bikes with a center stand but gladly selling you one for an extra $379. $65 Triumph t-shirts. Really, man?
Oh, well. If it weren't for Bloor, there'd be no Triumph at all. What a feat, really. Even if I had $100 million to invest in the project like he did, I couldn't create a successful new motorcycle company from scratch. In business and logistical terms, creating a new motorcycle manufacturing company is an absolutely gargantuan task. So I do have to give Bloor a lot of credit, despite the stuff Triumph does that sticks in my craw.
Yes, respect is due to Mr Bloor for sure. I think you’re right about Les Harris knocking out a few ‘bitsas’, and the TSX in the video was, I think I’m right in saying, more of a US initiative than a Bloor machine. There are much more knowledgeable folk who I’m sure will correct me here. Thanks for the comment. 😊
@@3Phils I don't think "retros" will ever entirely disappear as long as there are motorcycles. I personally don't like the name "retro" or "modern classic". These bikes are just STANDARDS and they never disappeared entirely, not from the 1930's until today. Many riders have come and gone since then and there are still the standard motorcycles. Standards just wax and wane in popularity based on current trends. There's always going to be a market for standard motorcycles.
The Mona Lisa never disappears, despite whatever the newest trends in the art world are. I don't think the KTM Duke and Honda Rebel version of motorcycling will hold up as well over time as the Mona Lisa's, aka, the Triumph and the Harley versions of motorcycling.
The US Army still uses the M1 50 cal. that was designed around 1918. There's such a thing as getting something to fit together optimally.
@skymningforelsket1302 You’ve got me thinking about fitting my Trident with an M1 now, and giving it a Mona Lisa paint job! 🤣
The TSX was a Meriden Triumph in production 1982-83.
@@splodge5714 I think you're right. I see them for sale now and then. I wonder what would've happened if Triumph released the 2001 Bonneville in 1978. The tech certainly existed in 1978 to do so. Who knows? Maybe even by then it would've been too late. The market trend was already obsessing over 4 cylinders and headed in the direction of super bikes like the GS1100E and GPz1100.
I think when an approach has worked for you for a long time, it's very difficult to do something else, even after it stops working. The U.S. auto industry experienced the same thing in the 1970s. Chrysler went bankrupt in 1980 or 1981. Some of the parts that Triumph manufactured when they went out of business in 83 were literally manufactured on machines that pre-dated World War 1.
I have a 2007 Bonnie T100. I always wanted one and I use Tina for open class bike training, with almost 100 tests passed. I went to my HD dealer and looked at about 99 sets of bars until I found the right ones ! A K&Q seat was added as a bit of a T140 export retro.... I had a loaner bike - a W800 before I owned Tina .... It may well have been a better bike but Steve McQueen rode Triumph !!!! A nice comfy bike but not exciting to ride, still almost 100 K done and the engine has never been apart !
Also I own a Beesa C11.... Great fun ! The best part is when modern bike riders look at it and think "which dealer would I take it to ?" Although they may struggle with the kickstart !
I ride a 1973 Yamaha TX650 twin because of the looks. The plethora of chrome and classic British styling with Japanese reliability ( with some tweaks to make it actually reliable ) and good performance suit me but fuel injection would be nice.
When EFI breaks you walk. Be happy with carbs as they take so little attention. Remember EFI means a computer and those do not last nearly as long as carbs. I can clean a century old carb and use it. PC boards and components are not immortal as unhappy CX 650 Turbo Honda owners are finding out.
I am 69 and for some unknown reason, hankering after a BSA A10/A65. I went to a BSA owners weekly meet up to find out first hand about the marque. I arrived on my trusty Himalayan and there were already three Royal Enfields (2 Himmys and a 350 meteor) in the Pub car park. I had a look round the other bikes (2 Yamahas a Honda 750 and a Suzuki gs all from the 80s) Most of the the guys were 65+ . It seems many oldies there want to just ride, no longer have the will or energy to maintain an old Brit. for ride-outs. (tinker and polish maybe). This all struck me (eventually) as perfectly fine, each to their own.
There’s nought wrong with any of that! Thanks for the comment. 😊
Great lesson, professor. I enjoyed it very much. I just bought my first Triumph, a 2024 Speed Twin 1200 USA, and love everything about it.
Thank you - and enjoy your Speed Twin!
After 5 years, I'm still enjoying my 2019 Speed Twin 1200 . So carry on enjoying !
Fat old geezer here. I've been riding motorcycles since 1979. I tried it all: Hondas, Kawasakis, an almost brand new BMW K100, a newish RD350, a Suzuki 850 etc etc. But I tend more and more to lean towards the classic bikes, I have 1957 Bonneville in my garage right now. And no, it cannot brake, it has awful lights, it is powerful enough, but only just, and it does break down now and again - not as much as I feared though. And every time I go for a ride, I think to myself: "Is it gonna bring me home again too?" BUT, when you get the ignition timing just right and the carbs set up properly and it does run the best it can, and you learn how to change gears properly and how to brake a mile before you want to stop, i.e. learn all of its little quirks and tempeaments, it's just so REWARDING in a way, that no new bike I've tried can compete with. This sense of being good and clever when a ride goes smooth is just so fulfilling, I can't explain it another way.
I get that feeling with my Trident too. I went somewhere… and I came back! Thanks for the comment. 😊
Sorry , I'm being a pedant, the Bonnie technically didn't come out until 1959 . ( so not in 1957)
Before that it was the Tiger , probably the Tiger 110 650cc.
The Tiger's got renamed to be Bonnevilles (with a few minor tweaks) in 1959 after Johnny Allen's 214 MPH speed record run on the Bonneville salt flats !
Anyway, sorry for being a pedant again, I know we can be annoying !
Fake pushrod tubes, fake plastic carburetor covers.
At least the Enfield Interceptor is an honest bike
I had two Norton Commandos. They were a labour of love with Lucas electronics finally taking me out. I bought a modern Triumph and never looked back.
Once my Commando was sorted it served me for 15 years with little bother. It did let me down a lot when I first acquired it, though. In the end I chose a modern bike because it was a guaranteed ride any time I wanted one, so I get your point. 😊
I do agree with the theory that modern built retros affect the real retro bike market and yes, they'll be classic retros themselves too one day ! (retro retros ?)
I'm in the Gen-X demographic, I passed my test as a 50 something back in 2019. Yes, a classic mid life crisis kind of thing.
Long story, my Dad had scared my off from riding motorcycles in my 1980s youth (when I first could have ridden on the road).
However I'd listened to lots of stories about his 1950s escapades on a Triumph, two Nortons and Ariel Red Hunter.
When my father told the stories he had a "glint" in his eye but would also say "Motorcycles are DANGEROUS !".
Well he's not around to nag me with that anymore . God (or whatever !) rest his soul !
So after passing my mid life crisis motorcycle test in 2019, then for the decision, get some modern Japanese bike, get a real 1950s -> 70s retro British bike or get one of Hinckley's finest modern takes on retros ?
The thought of having to fettle an old machine, source parts for it, maybe have cable operated front drum brakes, no ABS, Amal carbs to keep fettling, a right hand gear shift and ultimately not ride it as much didn't appeal, so I plumbed for Hinckley's modern take on the Speed Twin in 2019 with good tyres, ABS, slipper clutch, traction control to hopefully keep me rubber side down with my real lack of riding skills !
Also, on the fettling, well I guess I'd have to sort out all the imperial sized tools I'd inherited from my father, and fettling old bikes would also be a new skill for me to learn. I had fettled a knackered 1970s Ford Cortina in the late 1980s just to keep a cheap old banger on the road, so I guess I could fettle if I had to, but it didn't appeal.
Now if I got a house with a big enough garage, and enough time to do the fettling I might get a real 1950s->70s retro British bike as a second machine, but I doubt it would ever replace my 2019 Speed Twin.
The only thing that would replace the 2019 Speed Twin, would be another hassle free modern machine, that is if the Speed Twin becomes hassle to keep running and requires too much fettling !
This situation is actually evidence that REAL bikers are dying. And the ones posing as bikers today are, for the most part, just that, posers.
Anyone who prefers EFI on any motorcycle, other than perhaps a very high performance bike (2nd generation Blackbirds come to mind), is NOT a real biker. What he is is a lifestyle consumer, with no genuine appreciation of what motorcycling is really about.
The skills required to stay on a bike, run hand in hand with the skills to get the best out of it, both on the road, and in the shed.
Yes, motorcycling has always had its posers. We know who they were. Some were like rockstars who were genuine heroes. Some were just silly, and deserved only to be laughed at. And we did, mercilessly, and no one cared if their feelings were hurt.
Modern posers compliment each other’s bikes like parrots. But what are they actually praising? Usually a factory appliance that the owner has no idea whatsoever how it works, or how to fix it. The even sadder part is that the £95 per hour official service technician with the laptop probably has even less.
In 1977 when I bought my brand new Honda CD175 (the ACTUAL GENUINE first retro bike), I was buying into motorcycle nostalgia. It had full flared mudguards, a fully enclosed chain guard, chrome panelled tank with knee pads, and a combined headlamp and speedo nacelle. All very practical, and harking back, not only to Honda’s past machines, and the grand tradition of Britain’s own motorcycle heritage.
My mate Charlie who had a Yammy AS1, told me I’d wasted my money on a ‘granddad bike’. But after running the bike in properly, and playing around with the carb and timing, despite his two stroke’s superior acceleration, I beat him in a long distance race…! Then he accused me of thrashing my bike…!
We had nothing in common in our choice of bikes then, but we both knew our machines inside out, and tore them down at the weekend - as we all did back then.
You modern posers who prefer to pay someone else to service your electronic appliances, have no idea what real biking is. It YOU that’s killed the classic bike prices - because you don’t want to get your hands dirty, and you would rather soak up the glow of having your toy admired, than take the time to learn how it works.
Ride safe👀
A new vehicle has to comply with emissions regulations the 70s bike owner or designer can only have nightmares about.
Hand in hand came decent reliability and economy.
Perhaps peak motorcycle design is electronic ignition and fuel injection no cat.
Could be. I’ve seen a lot of folk buying new retros and drilling the cats out of ‘em! Probably also requires an ECU flash too. Ha, that probably means we’re at peak retro tinkering in the shed! Thanks for the comment. 😊
I cannot believe - I am aghast, shocked, appalled, in disbelief and flummoxed as to why you do not mention the launch of the 1992 Kawasaki Estrella 250, and based on its success, the launch of the Kawasaki W650 in 1999. To suggest that Triumph launched the retro boom is to suggest that Triumph launched Sputnik and the Apollo Moon landing.
Ha! Well, I DID mention the Kawasaki W650 beating Triumph by a year. The Estrella 250 was definitely retro when it was launched in 1992 but I didn’t see many of them here in the UK. It has a look of a Royal Enfield about it. You could say RE were the original retros, although only because they made the same bike for 60 years! I’ve owned three Kawasakis, all amazing machines. Thanks for the comment. 😊
I think some of the earlier retro bikes already have become classics, to my modern eyes a W650 seems just as old school as a 70's Bonnie. You got your carbs, you got your kickstart. Except the W is also a very dependable bike and can be had cheaper because it says Kawasaki on it.
For me it's difficult, because I love old junk, but I don't enjoy working on it. I want my old bike that I can ride year round and just bring in for it's service every year. Something I can go touring with without worry.
I suppose an old airhead BMW or Japanese bike could provide that experience too if it's very well cared for, but there really is something to be said for the complete lack of worry I feel about my XSR 700. Though I do want something more old school when I get my full license..
That’s not far off where I’m coming from tbh. I love the old stuff but never developed all the mechanical skills that seem to be mandatory. I’m fortunate enough to own a classic alongside modern machines, to ensure I can always get out and about when the classic doesn’t start. Always liked the look of those Ws, by the way. 😊
So Anglocentric. A perennial classic that has been in CONTINUOUS production for over a century. Two words MOTO GUZZI.
Yes, well, I try not to make videos about things I don't know anything about. You've presumably noticed another huge omission of a major manufacturer that's been in continuous production for over 100 years for the same reason. A few other folk have pointed to Guzzis in the comments and personally I think they're beautiful bikes, but I've never owned one. Thanks for the comment. :)
@@3Phils Land Yachts 🛥️😁
Thank you for your reply 👍
You forgot one, my Moto Guzzi V7 850
Loads of people have said I’ve left out the Guzzis, it’s because I’ve never owned one so I don’t feel qualified to comment on them. My mate Phil had one for a bit - a lovely machine and I was quite envious! Thanks for the comment. 😊
NO. This is observable by anyone who lived through both eras. Prices are falling because owners are old and dying. There is nil young market because that was never cultivated by anyone who mattered. NVT died long before most new riders were born and they grew up with tough, rugged, RELIABLE (without excuses made) alternatives. Visit a vintage Britbike rally in the US. Fifty is exceptionally young for an enthusiast. Why would a young person who is not an utterly determined hardcore mechanic want one when nearly everything else is functionally superior and (this matters) well supported by independent shops? I'm the last British bike mech in my area and I'm 65 and retired.
Old British motorcycles killed the British motorcycle industry when they were new, and almost no modern buyers will tolerate the constant fettling us classic enthusiasts enjoy. There are so many vintage British machines coming out of the US because when they were new bitterly disappointed owners discovered (remember bike media before the internet was dominated by commercial media whose revenue depended on motorcycle company ad revenue) reality was far different than magazine propaganda. Their bikes went into barns and garages then they bought Japanese, German and US machines so they could spend more time riding and less money at the shop. If you are a mechanic they're not bad to keep running but if you are not one stay away unless you have plenty of spare money AND (the hard part) access to a genuinely competent shop.
Vintage British machines were never reliable by US standards. That's not an insult but motorcycle owners (usually those who are not mechanics) have their rose-tinted spectacles riveted on. Vintage Britbikes are really 1930s designs and unit crankcases (TriBSAetc) don't change that. Only one motorbike firm which barely survived similar mistakes was able to maintain continuity and that was Harley-Davidson. A key reason is they were built far more ruggedly than their British competition and (this is key) thanks to the roller bearing crankshaft can be overhauled to "zero time" in the field with few specialty tools. OTOH grinding vintage crankshafts is specialty work.
I've two Tridents ('69 and a '72 Miles Engineering framed cafe project), two Commandos ('69 and '73) and more but I would never commend them to a mechanical novice. True collectors will find them and enjoy not overpaying.
OTOH the new market is mostly people who find the classic design naturally appealing (perception thus industrial design has rules!) and want RELIABLE steeds. Many know little about the old bikes and that's for the best since modern machines are vastly more practical as transportation.
I agree with all of that, and if you dig back into my previous videos you’ll see I’ve previously argued that it’s the age of enthusiasts these days that is the prime driver of the current price decline in the British classics market. My first ‘bike’ was an NVT moped, which was abysmal, so I’m fully aware of the foibles of the 1970s Brit era, you definitely have to go into ownership with your eyes open and in the full knowledge that you’ll be spending large amounts on getting things fixed!
I think the classic market was due for a bit of a collapse because far too many people were treating these machines as an "investment portfolio" and in truth they do require a little bit of knowledge and patience. Coupled with the fact that you can't buy a classic as readily on the never never compared to a new machine from a dealer with a warranty, and I suppose it's all a recipe for prices to drop. Also in terms of the owners clubs, the VMCC etc... they don't have much in terms of a regularly updated social media presence compared to say Triumph, and so exposure to classics can be limited. With all that being said I'm in my mid-30's and I've been a Kawasaki W800 owner since I got my licence 8 years ago, but have just got a BSA B31, simply because the riding and ownership experience is totally different. That wouldn't have happened if the prices hadn't dropped. I think it's important to acknowledge that it isn't an either or. A classic, and a modern retro inspired machine both have their place in a garage providing you have the space.
As for Triumph themselves, it's subjective. They love to play on the whole British heritage, but don't manufacture here so I find it all a bit naff. Particularly the new "Elvis" inspired model... Did they kill the classic market? I don't think so. In fact companies like Triumph, Kawasaki of course, Enfield and now the indian BSA attempt, all keep a classic style alive which is no bad thing and may in turn get people looking at classic options further down the line.
Thank you for your very well considered and argued comment. You make an interesting point about classic owners’ clubs, which I’d say make very little effort to attract younger folk and seem to be mostly forums for old codgers like me to argue the toss about which spark plug is best. They feel unwelcoming and elitist to people, again like me, who haven’t spent a lifetime spannering their own bikes, and some even spend their time bickering amongst themselves and are downright hostile to outsiders. Which is why I’ve given up being a member of any of them. Glad to hear you’re having fun on the W800 - I hear nothing but good reports of them - and thanks again for your comment. Congrats on the BSA! 😊
That was good! I left the UK in disgust in the 70's after I was laid off by firstly BSA then by Renold chains, so I missed the early history of the Hinkley Triumphs.
The 'classic' look will pass just as the people who buy them will pass. When I was a kid there was a major market in steam railway memorabilia, but it died when most of those who could remember the steam era also died, or at least were shuffled off to a retirement or dementia ward.
In order to figure out what the next trend will be, look at what people in their 40's were exposed to when they were in their teens. I say 40's because it's only after that age that most people have the discretionary money to spend on such things. So, we're looking at the 1990's. My guess is hot Japanese saloon cars like Celicas, Primeras, Evos etc.
Thank you for the kind comment, and I think you’re spot on there. 80s Ford Escorts have been fetching silly money for a while now, plus there can’t be that many of them around seeing as most seemed to rot away after a few years. And with the likes of the new Renault 5, you can see the car manufacturers are playing the retro game too now.
The new "Triumphs" are nothing like the 60 yr old machines.
They don't smell right, feel right and most of all vibrant right with the old long stroke. Nott even real carbs.
It has the old name on a korean bike made from cheap alloy for max profit. Not built to last like the English made bikes. It's not a Triumph.
Ah, nothing beats the smell of hot oil and petrol! I agree there’s something a bit fake about them. Well, that’s how I felt about my Hinckley Bonneville at any rate. But then, they do start on the button. Thanks for the comment. 😊
I had a green 95 Diversion 900. One day it was parked next to a green Triumph ( I think the model was) Trophy 900. They were so similar to look at that I nearly jumped on the Triumph by mistake. I think the Diversion was a much better bike as it was Japanese, shaft drive and they have been known to do over 400,000 miles from the same motor.
Triumph did rather ape the Japanese bikes in the 90s. They were probably still operating in the 1970s mindset of: 'We've got to beat the Japanese at their own game, a game which they stole from us in the first place!' It wasn't until they began trading on the Triumph heritage that they really found their mojo. Thanks for the comment. :)
Good one! In the order of new classics, one simply can't miss mention of Ducati's sport classics and scramblers, or Guzzi, who seemingly never change
Quite right. I’ve never experienced either, which is a massive hole in my biking knowledge. Thanks for the comment. 😊
I think very few people buy oldies to ride on a daily basis. A genuine oldy is acquired as a hobby for occasional club rides and to impress those that know the difference. Just as a metric cruiser will never pass for a Harley by any enthusiast. Having a range of modern repos hardly means that the genuine article loses value. It might mean that they will be easier to find when you want one, and I'm not sure they are ever bought as an investment anyway. So who cares IF the modern retro stabilises the price of the real thing?
I buy bikes I like in order to ride ‘em, I’ve never bought them as investments. I’m crap at investments anyway LOL! I’m not sure my Trident impresses anyone much these days, most folk under 70 don’t even know or care what they’re looking at. I can’t stand clubs either! All of which means I think I agree with you! 😊
Personally, I think the decline in the classic bike market is mainly due to the era of nostalgia progressing ever onwards.
The real hot bikes in the classic market are now the early Japanese bikes, the two-strokes in particular.
Good point. I guess a few machines, like Brough Superior SS100s, make it into the perennial classics category but they’re not for riding, more like priceless antiques on display in museums and private collections. Thanks for the comment. 😊
the air cooled bonnie is just beautifully judged , just enough bike , little electronic nonsense ,very reliable , still want a t160 mind
Thank you for the comment. 😊 A T160 would be the perfect bike for escaping from New York, or LA, providing it started! 😉
In 1980, I bought a brand new T140D (UK-spec twin pipes but with US-spec teardrop tank and 'bars (reg. VEM 811V)). Black with gold pinstripes and gorgeous Lester mag-alloy wheels. I thought it was fantastic (apart from the vibration unscrewing the indicator stalks!) I was a final-year apprentice and one of my colleagues bought a Yamaha XS650 at the same time. Inevitably after a few weeks we swapped bikes for a quick test-ride. As soon as I set off, I knew the Yamaha was a far superior bike and wished my Bonneville had the same solid mechanical feeling. Fast forward to 2011 and I bought a new Bonneville 865SE (the one with lookalike Lester mag-alloy wheels) and riding it from the dealer reminded me of that XS650 from 1980. So I deduce that a 1980 Yamaha XS650 is a genuine retro version of a faux-retro bike... if you know what I mean!
Great comment, and yes, I do know what you mean! The XS650 was by all accounts a nice bike, once they’d sorted the wobbles out, with a great engine. It sold until the mid-80s so they must have been doing something right!
Old age killed off the classics. How many 60 year old cars do you see on the roads?
Classic cars had more stacked against them than just enthusiasts getting old. Pretty hard to want to jump in your old Mustang after getting out of your modern car with cold A/C, plush quiet ride and all the modern comforts.
Plus the owners of classic motorcycles are closer to the nursing home than a blast out the country lanes.
@@dhc8guru exactly my point. Not many riders enjoy drum brakes, carburetor, leaking under sprung shocks. Don’t get me wrong I love vintage bikes and cars. Great to look at and show off in a bike/car night. But I’ll take technology to ride everyday. I am 65 years old and rode my family’s 60’s triumphs and Panthers. They are very cool exciting motorcycles but no match for my speed 900 or my ST1300. Thank god for museums and Jay Leno lol
Well I hope so. If your theory is correct in a couple more years I will at last be able to purchase an X-75 Hurricane!!! 😁😁😁
Well hopefully! If so, I’ll be first in the queue! 😁 But short run specials like that will always fetch a premium, I think. Thanks for the comment. 😊
Are prices depressed? How long as this going on for? I might look again if the prices aren’t so inflated as they were.
Yes, do take a look. You might be pleasantly surprised! Thanks for the comment. 😊
Most of us have both, one for shows the other for rides out - some as every day transport - no way of telling a trend for certain.
I have both too, but I count myself lucky to be able to afford that luxury. I agree there’s no real way of knowing, it’s just a theory based on a feeling, posited from an observation about the current price of classics. Who knows, in a few years the bottom might drop out of the retro market too! If so, Triumph is well positioned with plenty of great modern machines. I’m sure their futurologists have much better crystal balls than me! Thanks for the comment. 😊
It's a shame that the modern Bonnevilles are now made in China or somewhere in the far east...
Thailand.
The retro market has contributed to the classic bike markets downturn, but so has the demographic, those that wanted a particular British bike in the 50’s and 60’s are now getting too old to bother riding , so the nostalgia driven buyers are mostly gone, motorcycling in the uk is heading towards a cliff edge with the average age of uk bikers rising and rising due to the lack of young bikers coming in at the bottom end, I predict a total crash in bike prices in 15 years time.
You've got to wonder. I mean, Vincents and Brough Superiors fetch in excess of $100,000 today. Who was 16 years old in 1926 and pining after a Brough Superior and finally had enough money to buy one when he was 50? He'd have been 50 and bought one in 1960. And yet the prices of those bikes keeps going up...
@@skymningforelsket1302 They are a totally different market, they have become a commodity, similar to say a gull wing Mercedes or F40 Ferrari, vehicles like that will probably always buck the trend, I saw an immaculate 1962 T120 for sale last week £5500, ten years ago it would have been £10000, I wish I was 20 years younger to take advantage of all the cheap bikes that are on their way! 🙂
@@1234567marks What you say makes a lot of sense. The prices (inflation adjusted) of most 1960's American muscle cars peaked in the late 1980's. The yuppies bought them. A select few have continued to climb in price, like Dodge Hemi's and Shelby Mustangs. I suppose it's anybody's guess which motorcycles will do the same. It's not a good sign when a 1962 Triumph sells for less now, than it did new. Inflation adjusted, a 1962 Triumph cpst about $10,000 - $11,000 when it was new. The 1984 Yamaha RZ350 sells for double it's price now than when it was new, so there's one.
@skymningforelsket1302 There are some bikes that have bucked the trend. I never seem to spot them! Not that I’m really looking.
It’s interesting to speculate. My thought in the video was whether some of the same demographic that was buying classic bikes switched to retro classics in the 00s, which would mean even retro classics might be coming to the end of their dominance given that most folk buying them will be old gippers like me. Or have the retro classics created a whole new market? Does anyone know of people in their 30s and 40s riding retros? I haven’t seen any. Thanks for the comment. 😊
At least all of this brought us more beauty on the streets, whatever kind of classic one drives.
By the way, also 50 yr old bikes are reliable, they just need a little bit of maintenance from time to time.
They are reliable, mostly. But if you’re buying one you haven’t a clue if they’re reliable or been maintained properly. At least Mr Bloor will come to your rescue if your retro turns out to be a dud. Thanks for the comment. 😊
Are you suggesting i should sell my XL250S vintage 1981? Certainly no younger people impressed, and as you suggest, the real market buyers are dying off.....
I wouldn’t suggest anyone did anything as a result of watching one of my videos. I’m the biggest financial numpty there is! I’m always buying at the top of the market and selling at the bottom! All I’ve done is observe that prices for classics have drifted downwards in the last few years and tried to come up with an explanation for it. If I have any advice, it’s hang on to your classic bikes and enjoy them! Of course, there will always be classic bikes that do better than others, but I’m not the kind of guy who can spot them. 🤣 Thanks for the comment. 😊
@@3Phils Im doing the best i can to LOWER the price of my "investment", by piling the miles on it. When i get too broken to kick start it, i probably wont be able to ride anything other than a CT125 anyway. I recall my grandad selling a Vincent Black shadowfor £5, he almost had a heart attack when i showed him a Sothebys auction price of 3 selling over 30k each. The market is fickle, ride and smile I say.
Great advice, couldn’t agree more! Shame about your Grandad’s Vincent though! Happy riding! 🏍️🏍️🏍️
Love how you working in the US Presidential debate 😂😂
Ha! Trump and Biden accurately reflect the two sides of my personality, I feel. Grumpy and sleepy in the mornings, then just grumpy for the rest of the day followed by just sleepy in the evening. 🤣 Thanks for the comment. 😊
Another reason for the grey dip at the end of the line is that old bikes, like my '80 T140 doesn't need to be MOTed or taxed. So the interest or data I get from the DVLA is zilch. I don't even have any paper trail for previous MOTs or ownerships. It had a V5 from the chap I bought it off, but it had been in his field for 20 years.
As I understand it, however, you do still have to tax it, albeit at a nil rate, or register it as SORN, both of which leave a DVLA a paper trail. Also, I was told that if you're caught on the road with an MOT fault and haven't got an MOT, they'll fine you £2,000 for the pleasure. Of course, anybody getting caught by the cops for anything like that these days is vanishing small! Thanks for the comment. :)
oh goodie a Brough Superior for £5K ....nah......
Ha! There are always exceptions. But even prices for those are coming off a bit. Thanks for the comment. 😊
I'm finding myself agreeing with most of what you say. As a small motorcycle channel myself, I'm blown away by the quality of the production on your video.
Living very near the Hinckley factory and even nearer Bloor Homes HQ, many of us around here think John Bloor is a great guy, no matter what he may have unintentionally done to classic Triumph prices.
Thanks for the kind comment. Personally I have nothing against Mr Bloor, I think he’s done a fantastic job with Triumph. I hope my natural cynicism wasn’t trowelled on too heavily. I mean, we all want motorcycles that start when we need them to and get us to our destination safely, without any hassle, and, most importantly, with a grin on our faces! As for the production quality, I have a team of video mechanics in the pits working 24/7 to ensure top notch results. Nah, not really, it’s just l’il ol’ me slaving away on an Apple Mac. A 40 year career in film and TV helps, though. 😊
@@3Phils I suspected you must have had experience making film, it shows.
Thank you! 😊
Always sticking to the classics for me mine is a merriden
Quite right too! Although mine’s a Small Heath! Thanks for the comment. 😊
Interesting points, however you can always have a modern classic for day to day riding and long distance touring and have a genuine classic for bike meets/Sunday jaunts. Another point is for many of us a great proportion of the "buzz" is the restoration process it's self, very rewarding to transform a basket case into a thing of beauty 🤔😊
I agree, that’s why I have both a Trident and a modern retro (if you can call an Indian FTR a modern retro). I think we should bear in mind, though, that not everyone is lucky enough to be able to afford both. Thanks for the comment. 😊
My thoughts precisely, in fact a guy I know well breaks old bikes sells parts for build projects, and has even bought them back and stripped them again.
Now wait, W650 wasn't a Triumph copy, nor is Janus nor RE. RE IS triumph & Janus steals equally from all....
Well, as I understand it the W650 was based on a bike Kawasaki made in the 1960s under licence from BSA, so it does have Brit chops, if not Triumph ones. The examples of small manufacturers are there to indicate that many have followed the retro path that Triumph pioneered. I agree that RE probably counts as an original manufacturer which has made traditional Brit bikes forever, but only really by dint of making the same bike for sixty years and then catching up with the retro scene in the 2000s. Thanks for the comment. 😊
What's wrong with a patronizing superior lecture anyway ? ...It is your stock in trade.. Signed a coffin dodger, soon to be even farther from your caring perhaps
Er, nothing wrong with it at all! Most folk I know do find me patronising, which is probably why I don’t know many folk. Carry on dodging that coffin! And thanks for the comment. 😊
@@3Phils Me too... I lecture people who need lecturing, so we are in the right .... As an Englishman in the USA I am often called (especially by my yank wife), as being superior and snotty.... which is correct, and the usual image of their betters... lol...
Ha! It’s good to know it’s not just me, then! 🤣
This situation is actually evidence that REAL bikers are dying. And the ones posing as bikers today are, for the most part, just that, posers.
Anyone who prefers EFI on any motorcycle, other than perhaps a very high performance bike (2nd generation Blackbirds come to mind), is NOT a real biker. What he is is a lifestyle consumer, with no genuine appreciation of what motorcycling is really about.
The skills required to stay on a bike, run hand in hand with the skills to get the best out of it, both on the road, and in the shed.
Yes, motorcycling has always had its posers. We know who they were. Some were like rockstars who were genuine heroes. Some were just silly, and deserved only to be laughed at. And we did, mercilessly, and no one cared if their feelings were hurt.
Modern posers compliment each other’s bikes like parrots. But what are they actually praising? Usually a factory appliance that the owner has no idea whatsoever how it works, or how to fix it. The even sadder part is that the £95 per hour official service technician with the laptop probably has even less.
In 1977 when I bought my brand new Honda CD175 (the ACTUAL GENUINE first retro bike), I was buying into motorcycle nostalgia. It had full flared mudguards, a fully enclosed chain guard, chrome panelled tank with knee pads, and a combined headlamp and speedo nacelle. All very practical, and harking back, not only to Honda’s past machines, and the grand tradition of Britain’s own motorcycle heritage.
My mate Charlie who had a Yammy AS1, told me I’d wasted my money on a ‘granddad bike’. But after running the bike in properly, and playing around with the carb and timing, despite his two stroke’s superior acceleration, I beat him in a long distance race…! Then he accused me of thrashing my bike…!
We had nothing in common in our choice of bikes then, but we both knew our machines inside out, and tore them down at the weekend - as we all did back then.
You modern posers who prefer to pay someone else to service your electronic appliances, have no idea what real biking is. It YOU that’s killed the classic bike prices - because you don’t want to get your hands dirty, and you would rather soak up the glow of having your toy admired, than take the time to learn how it works.
Ride safe👀
... If only you could run an ANOVA on with/without a kickstarter.
I think people that rode old British bikes so have knowledge of how to fix them . And therefore resort them are just getting older . As 70tys Japanese bikes there owners of before are now the ones restoring bikes
Never could accept the welded seam tank on new Bonnies! * made in Chonburi Thailand.
Right. Why would I buy a 50 yr. old crap instead of o nice new retro.
I certainly wouldn’t want to be accused of sitting on a huge Janus. 😂
🤣
Ooh, I do love a good pun!! But sorry to read about your mate. Yes, an old classic is for the diehard enthusiast who is also a good mechanic. Not me, I’m afraid. That’s why I went for the Yamaha XJR1300.
I dunno. My Triumph was a TT600. Still a lot of difference between a old Bonnie and a new-er one. My choice today would be one from the 2009-2012 era 900s. Still pretty good bikes at a good price.
nobody wants copper bedpans to hang on their wall any more.tastes change as a new generation is born and grows up in a new world not wanting the old stuff.no nostalgia for them.
What are you saying? My walls are covered in copper bed warmers and horse brasses! 🤣 Thanks for the comment. 😊
@@3Phils a proper retro guy:)
Tastes change but nostalgia remains a constant. (Mainly) men of a certain age want to own a bike that mimics the bikes they rode or admired when they were younger. The people who remember the bikes of the 50s and 60s are being replaced in the market by the people who want to buy the bikes of the 70s and 80s. When I was a youth in the 1970s, they had 50s nights where they played 50s music. Later, it was all your 1960s nostalgia. Now, they have 80s and 90s nights.
Yes, Triumph Killed The Classic Motorcycle Market - but they were only following Harley Davidson. They've been building retros since the beginning of time.
That's made me wonder whether Harleys are the only original bike around. After all, they've consistently built V twins for 100 years! Thanks for the comment. :)
@@FunAllDayLong4353 love it, Retro since before Retro was retro.👍
I think they pretty much have! But personally, I'd love an original Trident. As a 16 year old in 1976 I scored a ride home from a BMF rally on the pillion. Most thrilling experience of my then young life!
Prices of original Tridents are dropping, so maybe they’re worth a look? Of course, that said you’ll need to find one that doesn’t cost you an additional £11k in spannering, like mine did. From your tag I’m guessing you might already be getting your kicks from piloting Fireball XL5, though! 🤣 Thanks for the comment. 😊
@@3Phils Haha - so glad you remember Fireball XL5! Sadly not many do! After many years of searching I managed to get a reasonably priced die cast Fireball, but it's only 10 inches long so, sadly, too small for me to pilot. Also - I live in Western Australia and Tridents are as rare as hen's teeth here. Wow, you really spent on your Trident - but I'm sure it was worth every penny and must look awesome - was that the one featured in the video that set my heart racing?
@stevezodiac575 Yep, that’s my Trident! It’s been a moneypit, but it’s MY moneypit! Seriously, it was already a great bike when I bought it, but getting a couple of old perfectionist Trident specialists to do a few bits to it during six months of lockdown transformed it into a bike that now owes me the shiny side of twenty thousand Great British Pounds. Not that I’m the kind of guy who thinks like that, I just love riding a well sorted British classic. Fireball XL5 was about the first TV show I can remember! It made quite an impression on me, and led to a lifelong love of Gerry Anderson shows, and any sci-fi really. I’ve only ever touched down for an overnight in WA (spent it in Freeo and didn’t get into Perth) but it felt quite Mediterranean. I seem to recall Perth airport opened for the flight in, and then shut again - an odd experience being in an international airport that’s deserted! Nice chatting to you! 😊
@@3Phils Well Phil, asking perfectionists in lockdown, with nothing better to do, to work on your Trident project would be high (budget) risk - and that is even more $$s than I had imagined! But it really does look soooo special! And you have an antipodean ex-pat very envious indeed! And, being now (expensively) 'well sorted' it sounds as though you have, in fact, funded he acquisition of a genuine time machine! A machine that will, at you whim, transport you back in time to, what I would consider to be, the apex of classic British motorcycles (and I'm guessing you feel the same). So looking at it from that perspective, you got a great bargain! Well better value and more fun than a DeLorean! Yes Fireball XL5 is amongst my (few) very early memories too. I was also (later) a fan of the Ark Royal Aircraft carrier, and I wondered why aircraft carriers didn't have a launch ramp like that for FB XL5? And then a few years later, they did! Gerry Anderson (also a life-long fan) should have been credited for his inspiration! Anyhoo - I see your channel has many very interesting videos - so I've subscribed! Perth airport - busier now - slightly. If ever you return - I'll take you around the sights! TTFN, and Best regards, Steve.
@stevezodiac575 I’d like that! I might have to sell the Trident to afford the air fare though! Thanks for the sub and all the best!
Writing as another Phil I reckon you are right. I own three bikes between 43 and 58 years old. I still have the ability to kick them but in ten years time I may not.
Two of them will probably have to go for a pittance but the electric start Meriden Triumph will be the one I will keep.
Sold my last old clanker, sorry classic bike back in 2019. Now ride either a Kawasaki W650 or Royal Enfield C5 classic 500. Never open the tool box now unless doing a service. Modern retros, the way to go.
Yep, I’ve been sorely tempted myself! Thanks for the comment. 😊
I’m on the fence as I ponder what my next bike should be. I do mirror the theory but my main concern isn’t oil leaks (just top it up as needed) or crappy electronics (replace them with modern stuff).
I’m worried about the ‘rubber’ bits. The seals, air boots, and other such items will be stiff, cracking, hard to work with, and maybe difficult to replace at all.
That makes me look at modern retros. However, most of them don’t look quite right as the front wheel is usually too small and there’s a bizarre amount of air around the rear wheel.
Also, why buy something that’s going to depreciate for the next 10 or 20 instead of something genuine that won’t depreciate more?
But the rubber bits… And the normal wear items like cables and brake shoes/pads…
I’m getting dizzy!
You're probably not right about old bikes not depreciating. They clearly are.
There might be a brief market resurgence if the economy improves but there aren't going to be many more old people who want bikes older than they can remember so in the long term old English motorcycles are going to decline in popularity and eventually, value
I can certainly see the desire for reliability, a clean parking atea and a first time start.
Triumphs, BSA etc all look brilliant while handling well. The Kowasaki 900 looks stunning but was not a handler, as I remenber it!
I recall the Z900 I owned was an OK handler, not as bad as I was expecting in fact, to the extent that I was pleasantly surprised! Thanks for the comment. 😊
I have been looking at Triumphs for quite a while. Two things that I don’t like, and it keeps it from being a true classic in modern times. The first is the fact that the motorcycle is made in Asia. I don’t care how good quality the Triumphs are, I want somebody assembling the motorcycle in England. Second. I dislike the gas tank. The gas tank the focal point of every motorcycle. If they had just used a sculptured tank like the original Triumphs, I might be on board to buy one.
You aren’t the first commentator to mention the Triumph tanks. They seem to be a sticking point with many folk. As for Thailand, well, they do make a big deal about them being British bikes and it does seem disingenuous to do that, but then make them in Thailand. Apple comes to mind with its ‘Designed in California, made in China’ tag, but you can’t really compare it since nobody I know buys Apple products because they’re ‘All American’, and besides, Apple doesn’t market them as such. I’ve heard some cynical folk refer to Triumphs as ‘Thaiumphs’, but you didn’t hear that here! 😉 Thanks for the comment. 😊
The British classics killed themselves. Honestly they were rubbish - just like British cars. Italian and Japanese classics have kept their value.
40 percent of the new Triumph production is sold in Britain where they are cheap. Outside Britain they're too expensive.
Not sure about 40%. Triumph’s latest annual results showed a global turnover of £703m with sales of £84m in the UK, which I make to be more like 12%. Also, a new Daytona 660 starts at around £8,595 in the UK, whereas the US price is about $9,195, roughly £7,267, so about £1,328 cheaper in the US!
Japanese classics from the 70's are still popular. Oil leaks, unreliability and kickstarts make old British bikes less sought after and prices have dropped.
My British classic from the 1970s has an electric start, no oil leaks, and starts (most of the time)! Thanks for the comment. 😊
Having owned five Meriden Triumphs, I can only say this. That lower gas tank seam on the 'modern" ones was and is a disgrace, literally ruins the entire bike. How could they afford to make a svelte, beautiful, seamless tank for all those decades and now, charging twelve or thirteen grand, you get THIS monstrosity? They completely lost the essence of a 60's Bonnie and deserve to fail.
I know what you mean about the seam. Plus mine got chipped whenever any spannering was done to the engine. Thanks for the comment. :)
9:45 , you've got to admit that's a beautiful machine. At very first, I didn't like the 2001 Bonneville. It looked like they were trying to copy a classic Triumph , but didn't copy it very well.
The looks have grown on me considerably. They gave the 2001 its own look, it's own personality. It's looks stay within the lineage, but it is not a carbon copy of another bike. It looks less athletic than a 1965, but more thick and muscular. I have no aesthetic objection to that. In my own life at times, I've done the same LOL --- sometime more slim like a gymnast (high school), other times more thick and muscular (after lifting weights for several years). I'm still recognizable as me, just in a different form.
I've come to think like this: really we have 3 Triumph Bonneville designs .... pre-unit (1938-1962), unit (1963 - 1983), and let's call it air-cooled overhead cam (2001 - 2015). The 2016 + water cooled ones, if anything, are the imposters in my eyes --- they didn't give them their own distinctive personality, but just aped the 1963-1983 engine shapes.
There's no "tech" on a 2001 Bonneville that wasn't in existence when they were building Triumphs in 1975 (although Triumph didn't use it in 1975, it existed, like electronic ignition and bearings instead of bushings LOL). It's also made in England. Except for some very minor details like the rims not being made by Dunlop and the carbs not being made by Amal, I do think that a 2001 Bonneville is as as genuine a Triumph Bonneville, as they come.
I loved the look of the 2001 Bonnie I had - actually it was a 2002 Centenary Edition which managed to escape the factory just before the fire. It was just the lack of power that got to me. Being unable to overtake white vans on a 200 mile trip to Cornwall was the last straw for me. I traded it in for a ZZR1400, which, er, actually could overtake anything, anywhere, all at once! 🤣
@@3Phils I wonder if the 865cc engine introduced on the T100 in 2005 would've helped? I think on the dyno they make between 58 - 62 horsepower stock (depending on what dyno you put them on). Some guy on youtube has a 2006 year 865 T100 that he only changed the pipes-air filter- and carburettors and he's getting 77 horsepower at the rear wheel. I saw the video of the bike on the dyno. It roars like a lion. That's more than a Yamaha MT-07 by over 10% greater
@dirkdiggler5164 I’ve heard they’re much better, and Triumph was in all probability reacting to feedback when they upped the capacity. It was too late for me by then, though, I’d moved on. I’ve been sorely tempted by some of their models in the 2010s and beyond, but never quite had the courage to make the leap. I mean, they look amazing and with the right amount of power… I’ve always been a bit of a 100+ BHP bunny, though. Apart from the Trident, which, as you know, I’m very attached to and forgiving about! ❤️
@@3Phils That Trident you have is awesome. You know, I once rode a (lent to me) 1973 Trident over Snoqualmie pass in Washington State at 2 am. In the snow. LOL.
Well, if you ever want to get back on the Bonneville train, the 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008 T100 are the picks of the litter. These were Hinckley made, still carburetted, still chromed and dual color painted, but with the bigger engine.
Like if you bought one for 4500 dollars. For $1600 you could turn it into a fire breather, and it'd go great and sound great with that proper 360 crank just like the originals. 1. Air pipe delete, $20. 2. A high flow air filter, $60. 3. Keihin flat slide carbs, $1300 4. A pair of Dunstall mufflers, $250. That's really I think all you've got to do to it , to get it to rip. Some guy has gotten over 100 horsepower out of them, but they keep blowing up. But pushing high into the 70s horsepower, they'll be reliable. I'm not suggesting you do any of this, but if you ever decide to do it, from what I gather about your sensibilities, this would be the way to go in the Bonneville world.
@dirkdiggler5164 If I was twenty years younger I’d have a go at all that! I once rode a Lambretta GP200 through the Weald of Kent in the snow, but it doesn’t compare to your ride on a Trident! Respect!
I bought a new T100 in 2021, I love it and have recently been looking at a 1962 Velocette Venom Clubman, the opposite of your theory.
Ah, but you bought the retro, so now you can have a classic! For many years my policy has been to have a modern, back-up bike alongside my classic for those days when the classic just won’t start. Thanks for the comment. 😊
You are on the right track, a very amusing channel. Double Plus Good
Aw, you’re too kind! Thank you. 😊
You base yourself on the first generation of twin 900cc to say that it is not that good. The second generation is very different.
Yes, I should have made it clearer that it was the first gen Hinckley Bonnie. I’d probably still find the uprated 80hp a little placid on a modern bike, though. I’m more of a 100+hp kind of guy when it comes to modern machines. But that’s just my personal preference and I know plenty of folk who love their Bonnies. Thanks for the comment. 😊
I don't think so. He who wants a classic bike mostly has something special in mind. He does not want any retro bike, he fancies a certain bike.
There is more to a classic bike than just looking like a classic bike. I have got two Velos, a '72 Bonneville and a Z1R. I don't want a new Triumph, though they are perfectly good motorcycles.
To be honest, to me retrobikes are neither fish nor fowl.
I can understand why you'd think retros and classics appeal to two different markets if you're a purist. As someone who is lucky enough to own both (if you count an Indian FTR as a modern retro, that is), I can see it from both sides. The T160 is my go-to, while the Indian is a superb machine that always starts when I'm up for a ride out and the Trident is out of service, which is not uncommon. During hard financial times I faced the difficult decision of either selling my classic Norton Commando or my modern Japanese machine. Sadly it was the Commando that went on eBay because I couldn't face the possibility of not having a two-wheeler I could reliably jump on and ride down the road, even though I much regretted that choice later. I guess what I'm saying is there are some folk who love classics, but who also love bikes so much that any two-wheeler in a storm will do, and a modern Triumph kind of fits both bills if you haven't got the immense privilege of being able to own both. Thanks for the comment. :)
I'm afraid I'm not a purist, I have only got the bikes I fancied as a boy. In my opinion, the best bikes were built at the end of the seventies. Take the Kawasaki Z1000 and the Z650 two most beautiful and reliable bikes. The same goes for the Hondas, Suzis and Yamahas of the time. What came after has been a variation on a theme.
To be honest, I never considered the British bikes only being means of transport but as divas with their right of being eccentric. If they are mollycoddled in the style to which they would like to be accustomed, they purr like kittens.
Unfortunately I worked for several years as a mechanic in a Kawasaki dealerchip here in Germany. Therfore when I work on my English lady, the Bonneville, I always think I'm in the wrong movie. The Venom and the MAC are excused, they are in a class of their own. Although the Triumph and the Velos had German grandfathers.
Cheers!
I loved the Japanese bikes of the 70s, I had a few at the time, all Hondas for some strange reason. Can’t disagree with anything you say there! By the way, I spent some time in Berlin and Hamburg not so long ago and loved the vibe, especially Hamburg. See you in the Euro 2024 final?! 😅 All the best.
@@3Phils
Do we both think of '66? lol!
Apart from that, may you do well!
Ha! You too!
If it has two wheels, I'll ride it.
I'd have to argue the complete reverse is the case. Younger riders have bought the retro bikes and liked them so much they fancied the real thing and bought a classic. The demise of the classic bikes is certainly down to all the ewd chaps dying off. I'm in my 60's, served my time as a toolmaker and have always had classics and now own both. You really need an engineering background to restore and keep these old bikes running, but boy they are like a living breathing, snorting beast compared to the modern bikes. I have owned 2 Interceptors. First one broke down every few hundred yards [2000 miles from new] and looking online I was not alone. So I persevered and got another which didn't brake down but was like riding a childs toy and I hated it. I have had a few of the modern Triumphs which are in a different league to the Interceptor rubbish but still whilst nothing like the real thing are great bike to just hop on and go. So without the modern retro classics I guess there would be only a hand full of clasic bike riders left.
That's an interesting perspective. I'm intrigued by what you say about the Interceptor. They look amazing in the photos, but I have to say I bought an RE Cafe Racer in 2015 and was very disappointed. On close inspection it was a bit shonky, with metal parts painted with silver Hammerite, total lack of any usable power, and tyres that led to the bike slipping out from under me in the first few days, going slowly round a bit of a corner. Shocking! Thanks for the comment. :)
@@3Phils The Interceptor Handled well, had good brakes and looked superb with its Black and Chrome tank but other than that It just didn't feel right.The Engine was just flat and felt devoid of any character. Having owned over 100 bikes over the years I've tried Jap. Italian and British, and Indian. The bikes from the late 60's and 1970's had the magic for me. I also had a 350 classic reborn which was superb, looked great and felt like an old single, pity they don't make a 500 in same style and smoothness. Never had a do on the new BSA though. Your Trident is the business, could look at all day and not be bored. I had a 1969 T150 which smoked like a 2 stroke and was far too fast for those drum brakes but happy times ensued.
Interesting history behind it all.
I think you have hit upon another reason for the demise of genuine retros. Fuel injection and electronic ignition make modern retros easier to live with. Good power handling and braking make them more exciting to ride. Not everyone is as mechanically inclined as the good old days. The cost of maintaining / restoring a classic can be prohibitively expensive as you well know. I love the old school look and feel but a modern Moto Guzzi V7 or a BMW R18 give me the look and character that I love but can enjoy them knowing they will start and get me home every time and I can maintain them myself to a large degree. Always learn something and have a laugh watching your productions, thankyou. Saying goodbye to old friends is always sad especially the ones you loved. RIP Peter.
As always you’re spot on there BD! Thanks for watching to the end and your kind thought about Peter. ❤️
Carburators and points ignition is one of the desirable features in old motors for me. They're both so much more serviceable and easier to maintain
@rockyrococo2584 Plus I’ve never ridden a fuel injected bike that wasn’t jerky at low speeds!
There are many of the "old guard" that would agree with you. The newer riders just assume that fueling and ignition just work without any maintenance. But then they haven't owned bikes for as long.
@@3Phils These Euro standards are working on making ICE engines become extinct. It is getting harder and harder to meet emission standards. Of the five efi bikes I own only the FTR has some fuelling problems around 3K rpm but I forgive it. Just twist the throttle a little wider and all is good.
What a spiffing video!!! Well done old boy!!! 👍👍
Thank you, old bean! 😊
I have been motorcycle licensed for 47 years. I might be wrong, but other than in India and such, I just don't notice as many young riders - and I wonder if shifting preferences ae more the issue. To me it seems like there is less interest in riding, that many younger people are looking forward to the rise of the robot taxis.
Yep, I know a few 20-somethings who don't even have a driving licence and think Uber is how everyone has got around since time immemorial, so that figures. Thanks for the comment. :)
I agree. Lord knows how much a recently qualified, 20 year old would pay these days to insure a bike. As you say, with a car they can always be an additional driver on their parents’ insurance. If they bother at all - I say that as someone who was knocked off my bike by a guy who did a runner, clearly he was uninsured or on a provisional, or both. Cops did nothing, of course. Funnily enough, he was in a BMW Mini!
@@3Phils Yikes! I've ridden long enough to have had all manner of bad motorists bumping into my bike and such. I once had a guy turn right in front of me and total my bike - the responding officer became very agitated when the guy told him that cars had the right of way over motorcycles! Thanks to that he was issued an at fault and I received a full payout from his insurance company. When possible, I just like to keep distance between myself and motorists who are often distracted.
Yes, I find myself riding very ‘defensively’ these days. I’m always expecting everyone else on the road to do the worst thing possible. It can be a bit tiresome, but at least it makes it totally impossible to think or worry about anything else. Motorcycling as meditation! 🤣 Glad you had an officer attend in your case, who seems to have been familiar with the rules of the road!
Boss...
My 1981 (Meriden) Bonneville is off to Wales this month for a full restoration. I bought it when I was eighteen years old. Then it was the usual case of marriage, mortgage, three children and career imperatives.The Triumph has been decaying in the garage ever since, but it still has a place in my heart.
The restoration will cost me more than double the cost of the bike's re-sale value, but I'm doing it anyway. Two of my sons are keen motorcyclists, so the Bonnie will become a family heirloom, I hope.
In the meantine I run a Royal Enfield Himalayan 411 and a 650 Interceptor, both of Indian manufacture, as my daily transport. Totally brilliant bikes and cheap as chips!
I'm not sure that Hinckley Triumph has contributed that much to a levelling out of prices for classic bikes.
Many manufacturers over the years have attempted to capture the 'retro' market. Whilst I was riding my Bonnie in the 1980's, three of my riding mates at the time rode Yamaha SR500's, a definite 'retro' machine, complete with vicious kick-start!
Honda made the XBR 500/GB 400 in the 1980's and Suzuki had the GN 250/400 as a 'retro' offering. Enfield India was selling the original Bullet 350 and later on 500 models for decades before the Hinckley era and of course, Harley-Davidson has maintained it's stance on the traditional V-twin. Then there are Urals/Cossacks/Dneprs et al.
Then of course there are the numerous Chinese manufacturers and European brands such as Mutt and AJS who have their bikes made in China.
In the great scheme of things, the levelling of prices for classic bikes is a good thing. My youngest son sells new Royal Enfields for a job, but also owns a Model 14 A.J.S. from 1950 something.
The classic bike market will survive as long as young enthusiasts can afford to be part of it! Motorcycles are there to be ridden, not bought as an investment to boost your pension fund.
So no, Triumph (Hinckley) has not killed the Classic motorcycle market. As usual, there are numerous factors.
This was written by a real person, by the way. Not by Artificial Intellingence, but Actual Intelligence.
Love and peace.
What a brilliant summary! You’ve captured the subtleties of the argument far more comprehensively there than I could in a short video, which, of necessity, has to be distilled into a few bold statements. Good luck with the Bonnie restoration, it’s great to hear that these machines are still being cherished. 😊
NO !!!
MAYBE!!!
I believe that there are a number of reasons that "classics" are losing appeal. I'm in Australia, so no doubt there are regional considerations to take into account as a consequence. I'll also make it clear that I'm presenting anecdote, not necessarily fact.
Did Triumph kill the classic motorcycle market? I'm not quite sure. There have been significant changes in demography over the last 25 years. There are fewer manufacturing jobs, leading to fewer people being skilled with their "hands". Gone are the days when if you didn't know how to repair something, you yelled over the fence and old Bob would wander across with a bent to shape 3/8 Whitworth spanner and show you what to do while recounting whatever story of mechanical tragedy from the past that left him stranded under a bridge at 12.00Am on the way home from the pub. Old Bob's dead now and the new neighbour works in IT.
And the new neighbour works a salaried position. He's gone, all hours of the day. He's either stuck in traffic, at the office, or taking the kids from this sport or to that lesson and so on.
The days of the 7.30-4.00/9.00-5.00 have slipped from our hands. And our kids are far more demanding. The new neighbour only has so much time, far less than old Bob.
And when old Bob died, developers knocked down his house and treasured garage and built an apartment block with off street parking, but no workshop of any sort. There's just enough space to park a bike, but nowhere to work on one and nowhere to keep the tools if you wanted to.
And if you were capable of working on your own bike, and you had the space, where do you get parts and how much do you pay for them? In Melbourne, my home town, 25 years ago, if you wanted a new whatever it was for your British bike you went to Modak's which was located just about dead bang in the middle of the CBD. There was a little old lady behind the counter ( I reckon she was close to 100), you'd ask her for a "blah", she'd ask you "what's it for"? you'd tell her, She'd say, "no, you need this..." and 10 minutes later you'd walk out of the shop with a brand new whatever wrapped in brown wax paper. And it would cost you whatever they'd paid for it, years before, plus their margin. Parts were cheap. And they had parts for everything.
I reckon you could have built an entire Brough SS100 out of their parts store, they were so well stocked. The shop is still there, but those days are gone and so is the little old lady.
Now you're searching the globe and paying a premium for used parts of unknown quality and paying handsomely to have them freighted to wherever. And in the case of Australia, you're waiting weeks for them to arrive.
Modern motorcycles have solved these problems, not necessarily Triumph and their like. I reckon that the classic bike segment would be trending just the same without Triumph.
Our older bodies (bikers are a lot older on average!) want a bike that's comfortable and has moderate power. Our diaries want one that doesn't take up time other than to ride.
Our skillset and our plant want a bike that doesn't need fixing. Pick a bike that fits that bill. It won't be built in Meridan or Birmingham, regardless of what it looks like.
Very well put. As a UK city dweller, I spent 40 years without a proper shed, parking my bikes in the road (where they were nicked from), or renting old garage hovels that barely kept the rain out. let alone had power and light. It's one of the reasons I never really developed any mechanical skills, you really don't want to spend the long UK winter months in a damp shed without light! What I mean is, I've lived in places that lack any of those amenities you describe and your analysis feels right. Send my best to Melbourne, I spent some time in the Garden State in the 00s and loved it. :)
@@3Phils Ah. the good old days, when we were proper poor. You can't do much about the weather, but I hope your other circumstances have improved.
Melbourne is still there. I avoid it like the plague, these days. It is a proper concrete 5h!thole. But I'll pass on my regards, just the same.
Likewise I avoid London these days. And much of the English countryside I ride through has been covered in new housing estates. Country Victoria hasn't suffered the same fate, I hope. I spent a lot of time in Woodend, loved it round there. The only thing that got on my wick was your cops with their speed cameras! '100kph? Great mate! 101kph? We'll bloody do yer!'
@@3Phils You wouldn't believe it, but I live half an hour up the road from Woodend in Castlemaine! I'm actually going to Woodend for lunch next Friday.
Damned new housing estates are popping up around here like syphilis on a Roman regiment.
Cops are almost non existent, these days. They've been replaced with speed cameras (hidden) and a lot of them. And I must correct you. It's 3kmh over the limit, not 1 kmh, that will earn you a fine. And that will cost you $240 Aud. ( c$150 euro) and one of twelve demerit points.
Yep, drive through the same speed camera every day for a fortnight at 3 kmh over the limit and it will cost you $3,360 and your license.
Even my W800 is too fast for the roads around here.
@davidbrayshaw3529 Well, well, well, that’s a global coincidence then! I seem to recall there’s a great bakery in Woodend, I used to pop in for amazing snot blocks and Lamingtons. Oh dear, you’ve made me get all nostalgic for Aussie cake! How’s the W800 going? I always liked the look of them.
How could you forget to mention the Hinckley Thunderbird that debuted in 1995, followed by the Sport and Adventurer ? Although they were liquid cooled triples, they did bridge the gap between the sports bike sort of bike that the new factory was manufacturing at the time and the later early twenty first century Bonnevilles. I owned a 1995 900ccThunderbird, truly a modern retro bike for the time.
Yes, sorry, I couldn’t fit everything in! Those were great bikes, and, you know what, I’m beginning to get a nostalgic hankering for one! I’m heading over to eBay to see what they’re going for! Thanks for the comment. 😊
Around £1,500 for a late 90s it seems. Tempting! 🤔
I have had a 96 thunderbird since about 98. About 2010 I decided to treat myself to a new bonneville thruxton for my birthday. I took it for a test ride and was quite thrilled about it , but riding my own bike home I realised just how much better my own bike was. Still have it . Great video .
@luckyewe Thank you for the kind comment. 😊 The comments here have piqued my interest in 90s bikes, it seems they’re becoming the new classics!
Good video, facts and a bit of dry humour, great.
You’re too kind! Thank you. 😊
Why did they change the Triumph logo? Was it purely aesthetics or is the original logo with the swoop tail copyrighted?
As I understand it, John Bloor bought the rights to everything in 1983, including all the intellectual property like logos. The Triumph ‘triangle’ incorporates the swoop but also includes the Union Jack (or Union Flag if you’re a pedant 😂), so I assume that was a marketing decision aimed at emphasising Triumph’s ‘Britishness’ and concealing the fact that a lot of these bikes were made in Thailand. Oops, did I actually say that out loud? 🤣
@@3Phils Thanks
@@Free_Ranger_CT110 Triumph owns the rights to all the logos and names, lock stock n barrel. The first change was nice, too. They kept the big "T" and the stylized letters. By 2024, the Triumph logo is an awful bland Arial font that you'd use to type an angry letter to your phone carrier.
😂
@@3PhilsIt’s always the same way, whenever production moves abroad the old national flag gets brought out and applied to the product. Fjällräven (the outdoors company) did the same thing when they moved production to SEA. Now, I care more for quality than national feeling and by all accounts the Rayong factory makes a great bike. I just wish it wasn’t covered in the Union flag (or was, indeed, owned my mr Bloor who seems to be a somewhat dodgy fellow).
Well, I mostly agree with your assessment. Classic Triumph prices tanked probably somewhere in the mid 2000’s if I recall. Which I solidly blame on the new Triumph’s.
But what really contributed to the demise of the old Triumphs or heck any classic bike for that matter was us old guys not having the interest in keeping an old bike running.
Great point! They say blokes are too old and knackered to start a new family over the age of 50, but try owning an old bike over the age of 60! Thanks for the comment. :)
@@3Phils well said,my five old post '50's bangers now sit unused because I can't stand the thought of working on them anymore,which I know I'II have to do if i take them out again.
Not only that, but if you’re not especially mechanically minded, like me, a lot of the old engineers who knew how to fix these machines for you have retired or gone to the National Motorcycle Museum in the Sky. Thanks for the comment. 😊
I blame it on aging owners since everyone who wants one has one or many if they were serious. No young person needs one and British owners in the US are mostly ancient like me. It's easy to keep bikes running but our bodies are junk and those don't get better. Further, the vintage British community never made any effort to involve NEW members as we were busy hoarding all the old motorcycles leaving none for anyone to experiment with.
Entertaining and educational at the same time -- a real Triumph!!!!
Aw, thank you! 😊
780
Great video. I had a 2006 T100. Like you I found it underpowered with crappy quality chrome that crazed. Maybe a current T120 speed twin would be a far better machine but if I'm honest, I'd be spending my hard earned and another Guzzi. Still made in the original factory and still have the excitement of ownership no other brand can touch. I really appreciate the effort you put into your content. The hard work shows.
I had a mate (called Phil, of course) who bought a new V70 a few years ago, he adored it. It looked fantastic! Sadly he only had a couple of years to ride it before the Grim Reaper turned up at the nothing age of 59. My takeaway from that was 'carpe diem'! Or, in other words, if you want a Guzzi, go get one! Thank you for the very kind comment about my content, it took a full working week to make this video. As I currently don't have any 'real work' to fill the working week, it's nice to know I'm doing something that's amusing folk. :)
@@3Phils Thanks for the reply mate. At our age ( I'm not 60 yet ) we can be recalled by our maker at any time. Just try to make the best of it as our health allows us. Thoroughly enjoying your channel and looking forward to you next upload. For me your original video was still on point. The modern Triumph with the retro styling whilst more reliable than 60s and 70s bikes still lacks that specialness that's hard to put into words. But I agree that when older riders are to old to ride them anymore or are recalled by our maker I can see prices just falling away. It's sad but a reality of life. I've been noticing some nice original Z900s and 70s guzzis have come back from their big price tags of only a few years ago. If I have the choice of an original bike that I like in good fettle and a modern but thoroughly reliable modern iteration of the same machine I'll take the original all day long. Keep 'em coming Phil 😊😊
Thanks for the kind words about the videos. It'll be interesting to see how long I can last out against the onslaught of AI-generated content on TH-cam. Will my videos become TH-cam's 'classics', with AI making the 'retros'? Ha!
@@3Phils I really don't think AI will replace the character and humour of talented content makers. Some people just make a really nice experience for their audience. I get that with your content. We are probably a similar vintage I'm guessing so sharing a lived experience also makes your stuff nice to watch.
Yep, I suppose you can’t beat us classics. Our carbs might be coughing and our exhaust pipes might make too much noise these days, but at least we’re still on the road!
Why not just get a new one? I'll tell you why not - because the designers of these new retro machines f*ed up by not fitting them with kick starters. Some may say that is a trivial thing but I would not have a motorcycle that didn't have a kick starter on it.
Interesting point. I bump started my Trident the other day because the battery was low and I forgot it had a kickstarter. Talk about senile. Thanks for the comment.
@@3Phils It's the same with modern motorcycles not being fitted with a centre stand & modern cars not having a spare wheel in the boot. Insanity but at least we now know what they're doing with all the lead that they used to put into petrol - they're obviously spoon-feeding it to today's motorcycle & car designers.
😕
Does your car still have a starting handle and a Stepney wheel? No, I thought not.
@@philhawley1219 Starter handles on cars are not of MY era so I do not miss them, though if they were an option now I would have one. And yes; my current car does indeed have a Stepney wheel. If yours doesn't then forgive me when I laugh when you are stranded in the middle of nowhere with a flat tyre.
@@ANationalAcrobat-qj2dl I have three old bikes, all have kick starts. My car is much newer, only thirty years old. No starter handle but a proper spare wheel and no poncy low profile tyres. The potholes round here would destroy them in no time.