Love your videos, Jill. I actually had an opportunity to talk to Adam about shooting the movie and he said that this scene was by far the most difficult. He mentioned in particular that timing the choreography with the burning cloth falling through the background was very tough, and that it was a practical effect that had to be reset after every take (which really drives home your point about the impracticality of just “redoing it until it’s perfect.”)
J. Kenji López-Alt wow it’s a small world I guess - love your channel and Star Wars equally. Thanks for making your videos, I’ve learned a lot - both how to be a better cook and person!
Whoa! THE J. Kenji López-Alt commenting on a movie fight scene breakdown! 😲 I have to say, when it comes to looking up the best approach to most things cooking related, I nearly always search out your recipes first. WWKLAD: What Would Kenji López-Alt Do?
In terms of "never break character", back in highschool one of our PE class projects was to make a choreography (either dance or fight). A friend and I chose to do the fight scene and we practiced enough that at some point one of our prop weapons started breaking. We had a back up, but on the day of the show, we had left it at home so just performed w/ the damaged prop. At some point, it calls for a guard, but the stick breaks in half. We have like a second long pause and then just continued with the fight (thankfully it wasn't a long staff that required much 2-handed wielding). Everyone came up after talking about how it was cool that we'd worked that into the choreography and really praised our acting surprised at the weapon being destroyed. aaaaand that's the limit of what I'd consider my stage combat experience
The most fun I have on YT is watching a video of someone talking about something they really, really enjoy. Thanks for sharing your enthusiasm. That was a treat. Wash your hands.
Once again why is there not a stunt category in the Oscars?!! The amount of work they put in! That's an art! Stunt choreography and performance deserves to get better recognition. It's hard work. I don't really have a substantial bias here. I don't do stunts or know much about it but I know it is hard and amazing work that deserves more recognition than it gets.
If you make it an Oscar category, you probably have to pay more for the winners in future films! Hollywood is very good at funnelling money towards a small elite group (which often doesn't include writers and editors), and pleading poverty in the case of everybody else. I agree stuntwork deserves recognition, but it's just not going to happen (especially since it serves as a reminder of the limitations of the actors...)
These days they probably have enough technical know-how and skill knowledge that they should have their own category, to be honest, similar to sound design or editing or any of the other skills thrown into the art of entertainment. Back in the start, though, it certainly seemed more slapdash and while clearly there was those who were skilled and talented, it didn't require the same kind of commitment. Remaining ever unsung.
I've been watching HEMA experts rip apart fights like this for a very long time. Half of me completely understands the frustration in some of their rants but the other half became frustrated that none of the experts were actually talking about how proper story telling came into play. This channel is exactly what I was looking for and I couldn't be happier.
There was a story? I thought it was just Mary Sue saves the day and everyone loves her and she’s the best at everything, then slap in the exact same story as A New Hope so you don’t have to put any thought into the script, then chuck in an exposition-dump from some satsuma-looking thing and finally dump from a great height on anything Star Wars fans enjoyed about the franchise as well as the previous film in the trilogy.
On the other hand if you watch the corridor crew show where stunt actors talk about good and bad action scenes from many movies, the "throne room fight" regularly comes up as one which stunt actors and choreographers consider to be a terrible scene. Bad timing, actors who obviously had not trained enough, who couldn't hit their marks, and poor choreography. It does not come up as one of the best choreographed. In real life, people often like or dislike anyting. You can be going around giving $20 bills and find people who dislike that. You can go around slapping people in the face and there may be one or two people who like it. The throne scene is generally disliked and by professionals it is considered bad work. But some people like it and that's okay.
Andrew Hill I think you missed the part where Luke trashes Rey for 2/3 of the movie, where she fails to prevent the 1st Order to shoot on the fleet, and fails to turn Kylo Ren to the light side... but yeah aside from that she’s a Mary Sue that everyone loves...
In addition, the entire point of this is to see the story- if i wanted realistic violence, i'd be watching boxing/mma, where real people engage in real violence. I mean, I don't think I've ever seen someone be realistically knocked out on film because to do that, you more or less have to knock the actor out (and even if you could pretend, a completely uncontrolled fall of the style someone who is unconscious might do is pretty dangerous).
@@reganator5000 You can have both. A big problem with the sequals as a whole is that they go too big, which is the same with this fight scene. There is a ton of faceless, nameless people performing fake-fu on each other, lots of movement etc but this dosen't have anywhere near the same emotional weight as Vader vs Luke, which is 2 dudes wailing on each other. In your climactic battle you want some static moments that show emotion, desperation, rage and perserverance. Less people make it more personal, and when they cross sabers you can have them spit insults at each other. This fight scene is more style over substance, focusing on Rey and Ben having joint peril against the red team...why not have a single praetorian captain who has dialogue prior and is acknowledged by snoke (maybe as Ben's possible replacement if he fails). Show him dominating Rey and Kylo at points, only for them to change tactics and come at him from different angles. As there is less to look at, the choreographers can spend more time perfecting the important components of the fight. Less becomes more.
As a martial artist, complaints about realism always bug me, unless the movie goes out of its way to be realistic and makes that a selling point, you generally don't want realism, since realist sword fights are usually either very short (if unarmored) or very long (if fought in armor).
Out of curiosity, do you know of any "realistic" (or close) sword fights in movies that are long and involve armor, as you describe? The only one I can think of is Holy Grail (:p). Fast, fluid unarmored fencing seems to work better onscreen.
@Victor Kurske I think the craziest moment in all three sequel movies is Kylo moonwalking into one of his thrusts. Once again, all style, no thought of how it makes the fight look even more fake than Yoda's fights.
The thing about this fight that I loved, was something that was very subtle, that on first viewing, I didn't catch right away. It's when they set the drapes on fire in the background. The rest of the action is so up front in the camera, that it's very easy to forget that the scene started with the entire set encased in blood red, glowing curtains. And then the final shot, is a dark, starscape, with stars and ships suspended in the background, and fluttering ashes and embers falling from the sky. And I remember seeing that part, when Kylo is talking to Rey in the post-fight afterglow, and my brain sort of going "...wait...something's wrong. What...what is it? When did they pull back the curtains?" And I didn't catch it really. I watched it the second time, and made a point to watch for it in the fight, when they burned the curtains, and how the action sort of makes you forget it happens. And then within the scene itself, the entire backdrop, is changed, from a red, angry, violent background, to one of a peaceful spacescape, with beautiful little flickers of glowing embers, floating down. And it's SO subtle, that EVERY person I have watched the film with, and asked them about it, completely didn't notice it, until I pointed it out. They would all answer "What background transition? It's been like that the whole scene." And then I rewind it, and show them, and they're just jaw dropped on how they missed that entirely. It's one of the few times I've been genuinely impressed by the cinematography of a film, and how subtly it was done. It's one of the reasons I really love Last Jedi.
I actually just did the same thing a few weeks ago, and that one little detail was so cool to notice and watch as the flames engulfed the curtains around the room and changed the feel of the fight and dialogue between Rey and Kylo at the end of the scene.
I never noticed that! I remember that sense of "wait, why has the room changed?", but totally didn't notice the curtains! Thanks for pointing that out, it makes the scene even better.
It's change blindness - you're so focused on the action you don't notice what else is going on. It's a similar effect to the experiment where they ask you to count basketball passes, but don't notice the bloke in a gorilla suit walking across the set, or (in later versions) players leaving / entering.
I appreciate that you point out how for most audiences watching this for the first time in a theater, it's okay for the whirlwind of stunt people to be imperfect when the stuntpeople were not intended to be the focal point. (I suspect Halloween costumes and cosplay are much the same; sure it's great to build a Han Solo costume so perfect that the stripes on his trousers are precisely the same width in millimeters as what Mr. Ford wore, but in the end what matters is, "Does everyone look at you and exclaim, 'Wow! Look at that great Han Solo costume!'? when they see you walk by." Attention to detail is good, but a 98% still gets the same grade as a 95%.) (I never noticed an association between fight choreography and costuming until I thought about your commentary. Thank you for that!) Your phrase that really caught my attention was: "...the point is not the fight itself. The point is how the fight affects the characters." That's a good rule! (And it's a difficult one to carry out for me personally. I'm learning quite a bit from your analyses of these fight scenes.) Please keep up the great work!
It's a good rule as long as the fight itself has stakes. This one didn't have any stakes because the outcome was never in question. I was more distracted by how horrible and derivative the set looked, and how predictable some of the action was.
@@elimgarak1617 Completely agree. And for me if the fight itself is distractingly nonsensical, like this one was, it also cheapens the story of the fight by making it seem fake and feel like a poorly prepared performance. When characters who are supposed to be trained fighters can’t fight, it immediately and forcefully pulls me out of the story because there’s a cognitive dissonance and contradiction between what it is telling me and what it’s showing me.
@@elimgarak1617 Not any stake ? Like Rey and Kylo Ren fighting TOGETHER after almost two films, watching for each other, but with the doubt of a reversal of loyalty at a moment of weakness, all of this was not enough for you ?
Another connection! Tim Zahn's Sw books are awesome...and he's done several collaborations with David weber in the Honor Harrington universe (referenced in another video)
I also LOVED that moment where rey grabs ben as a brace to do that kick and didn't at all have the words to describe why.... this laid it all out perfectly
Someone literally standing around waiting for the protagonist to block is blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain. It has nothing to do with "martial arts accuracy". That's just plain common sense. The movie punishes you for paying attention to it.
One of the reasons I love these videos is the fact you can acknowledge something is flawed and still say you like it. Stuff doesn't need to be 100% perfect 100% of the time.
I’ve gone back and forth on this scene - when I first saw it in the theater, I effing loved it. There were several standout moments and it really leaves a strong visceral impression. Then as I rewatched it, it started bothering me how telegraphed it seemed, and how much the stuntmen had to overcompensate for Daisy Ridley. But after watching this video and really thinking about it from a visual and storytelling perspective, I think it definitely works. It does exactly what it’s supposed to do, which is advance the plot.
Arena battle on Geonosis, while it is not lightsaber on lightsaber combat, neither is the throne room fight scene. We have had only a couple of large lightsaber fights such as this, but what I want to see is a huge lightsaber on lightsaber fight, between Jedi and Sith. That would be awesome.
It was my favorite thing about that particular movie. The variety of weapons and styles as well as the fact that it wasn't the tired old one-v-one or "watch how stupid our Troopers are" combat. More of this, please.
RE: the Kendo thing. If memory serves for the OT (mostly Empire & Jedi) Peter Diamond (aka: the first bloke to get his head lopped off in Highlander) opted to go with a hybrid style using Kendo, some fencing and I think a little medieval longsword fighting too. I don't recall if the fact that Mark Hamill already had a basis in Kendo was purely serendipitous (he'd learned growing up as a Navy brat when his old man was stationed in Japan) or part of the reason it was selected. Probably more the former, given that Lucas was deliberately drawing on eastern influences right from the off. Incidentally, I think for the first movie they more or less stuck to stage fencing since that's what Alec Guinness already had experience in. I think some moves there were Samurai inspired too, but switched from one handed to two to give it a "heavier" look and feel.
It was based pretty heavilly on stuff from Kurosawa movies, and Kurosawa usually had kenjutsu (which is distinct from but related to kendo) guys doing his fight choreography. That's also probably why it looks like longsword fighting, actually longsword fighting was very poorly developed in the 70s and when you see people doing it in even now in movies they tend to use a lot of saber techniques that you don't ever see in longsword fighting, either from surviving mideval manuals or from modern HEMA.
Didn't Bob Anderson do a lot of the sword work for the original trilogy? He was an absolute legend in stage and screen fighting, as well as an Olympic fencer.
@@Amaritudine Yeah, Diamond had worked with Anderson before going back to the 50's IIRC, and brought him on to be Prowse's double for the fight scenes. And yeah, he was a legend even back then!
Funny thing, actually, I read in a making-of-Empire book years back. Apparently, Lucas was so attached to the idea of lightsaber combat being very formal and Kendo-like that he *hated* how Kirschner had staged the Bespin fight with Vader wielding one-handed at the start. But the scene was already shot, so he couldn't do anything about it. Although at some point he did realize that the character choice was more important than retaining the Samurai-like vibe he'd originally envisioned. . (Also, the Bespin fight in ESB is my own personal favorite example of character stories being told through combat. :->)
That wouldn't be even remotely his call to make. This would have been a decision made by Rian Johnson, probably as early as while writing the screenplay.
And from what I could tell he did a pretty good job. However, Daisy Riddley apparently couldn't hack it. Also, many of her moves looked rather silly, but that's again between the director and fight choreographer. They should have had a stunt woman instead of her, and used CGI to add her face in.
I've read that Driver viewed it as part of parcel of playing the character, particularly as Kylo's a very physical performance (pointed up by the scenes in TRoS where he's not the one wearing the mask)
@@elimgarak1617 This. It's frustrating as a woman watching all these action flicks come out with women who clearly weren't auditioned on their action abilities. It's painful. But even if they used a stunt double it would have been really REALLY obvious and that almost would have been as bad. I'd much rather they cast women who have athletic ability rather than just who has the right face.
I think the issue is that Star Wars has some of the most iconic fights in cinema. The choice to use the actors instead of stunt doubles for most of it isn’t something that particularly stand out against the other fights in the series. Especially considering how much time Hayden Christiansen and Ewan McGregor put into learning the choreography for Revenge of the Sith’s final fight
1v1 and 2v8 or 10 is a pretty staggering difference. Comparing two dudes doing superhuman speed choreography with one weapon type with generally generic cinematography Vs like 12 people going at it with a myriad of unique weapons being filmed with a bunch of intricately planned and timed shots etc is a very different story. The throne room fight should be compared with things facing the same unique issues as it.
Funny you mention the prequel fights because the prequel fights are also controversial for the opposite reason. You may often hear the criticism "over-choreographed" because the emphasis is entirely on pre-planned movesets and character tends to take a backseat. (and yes, this is a criticism I share of the prequel fights). And even the lightsaber fights in the OT, those are 100% character > choreography.
@@C4DNerd Depends on how much you pay attention. Anakin uses Djem So, an aggressive style of combat, while Obi-Wan uses Soresu, with is defensive. This is, of course, indicative of their characters. However, you can notice several points where Obi-Wan doesn't take advantage of when Anakin is open. These are tiny details. Also, people complain about "unrealistic" combat in the fight, however about 80% of it is incredibly well done, with few technical flaws from a swordplay perspective (taking into account that lightsabers are very different from swords).
@@pseudonymousbeing987 "intricately planned and timed" is hardly how I'd describe this fight. People twirl away from the fight, or just stand in place to make it look like they're doing something when they aren't. A dagger had to be edited out because it *wasn't* intricately planned. If it was, the choreography wouldn't have needed any editing in post. I do agree that they are very different, however they should have spent far more time practicing, which is the difference in quality. If they had practiced this a bit longer, they might've noticed more of the flaws. Sadly the "myriad of different weapons" are hardly utilised, and aren't even used well. You'd think the Royal Guard would actually be highly skilled own their own, and would have each other's backs in the fight, however they get solo'd easily. If one of them had Rey or Kylo in a grapple, another should've stabbed them while they were preoccupied. This isn't choreographed like a 2v8 fight, it's choreographed as numerous 1v1 fights.
they cast the stuntman to be the villain... I mean it doesn't really compare. But yes, it would be fun to put that much time into an action scene in any movie, again. But I mean... there is a reason why other movies, not counting star wars, haven't done it again in that way.
Hmm, interesting take on the fight scene.. hadn't thought about it like that, emotional connection vs technical accuracy... tbh, when I saw it at the cinema, I thought the scene looked cool, but by then I'd lost a lot of interest in the movie itself not notice anything... should probably watch it again, lol..
@@matthegarty6235 A LOT of people felt that way, too many to just dismiss it. Personally, this is my second favorite Star Wars film. I had the opposite experience to Haze here. I was so engrossed in the story, so moved by the sudden reversal and the deeper implications of what was going on, I found the fight utterly thrilling. I could dimly see it was as clumsy as, well, any elaborate single-take choreography with non-pros doing martial art. It didn't matter. It worked for me because the moment worked for me. As an artist myself, I don't count seeing the brush strokes as a flaw. They're part of the art. If I like the image, seeing how it's being rendered is fun. If I don't like the image, flawlessness doesn't help. This is why good old films with clunky special effects are no less great than new films with modern effects, while bad modern films are still bad no matter how great the effects are. Hell, the Original Star Wars has the weakest light-saber fight in the series by far. It's still my favorite, because I'm on board with the story. I cared.
It’s funny I really enjoyed the film watching it and as soon as my friends and I were having dinner we collectively realised how messy it is. The power of being in a cinema with excited fans. The throne room fight was received with cheering and applause.
I always really liked this film. I thought that it did a lot of very interesting things and while some elements fell down there was a lot here that made it a great Star Wars film. Wish I could say the same thing about the 3rd installation - though even here my biggest complaint was they desperately tried to cram far to much into one movie and I could not connect at all due to the whiplash. I would probably been OK if it had been split into two movies and had better pacing and more chance to build out (flesh out?) the plot line.
Just recently discovered your channel, Jill, and it's definitely a new favorite. Loved this take on the fight. And also, the fact that you could make a video saying a POSITIVE thing about The Last Jedi and have almost all upvotes for the video? That's bordering on a miracle. Much, much respect.
I deeply enjoyed this fight too. Is the choreography and performance a little scrappy and unrefined? Sure. But for me, the scappiness comes across as the desperation and chaos of a sheer fight for survival. A life-or-death struggle is very rarely a slick and polished ballet of grace and poise, after all. As for the characters, Kylo's fighting is marked by his aggression and arrogance, while Rey's is at times cautious and defensive, while still tinged with growing anger. Plenty of non-verbal storytelling there. On top of that, there's a geeky delight in seeing some light 'sabres' that are based on weapons other than swords. The sheer variety of cutlery adds a lot of creativity to the action. Also, this fight acknowledges some key advantages of a light sabre over a real-world sword: chiefly, a blade that's 'sharp' on every side, and can be turned on or off at will. Overall, the only aspect that let me down was when The Rise of Skywalker selectively ignored the groundwork laid by The Last Jedi, including Rey and Kylo's evolving personalities and relationship.
dropping your weapon mid combat is unnacceptable, also deliberately stopping instead of hitting someone is bs. hollywood stars need to learn that fight choreography is important and the best way for that is for the stuntmen to hit them if they don't dodge.
The Choreography isn't my cup of tea, but this is my favourite shot fight in all of cinema. Long, clean shots with the action being clear for us to see. Not a single shaky cam in sight
Yes! Regardless of how I felt about this movie the first time I saw it I *loved* this scene! Kudos to Daisy and Adam because clearly training that long wasn’t easy and although they aren’t professionals they still did a pretty amazing job everyone is just used to seeing Marvel/Super hero *professionally trained stunt doubles*
Stunt doubles are not a sin. They have a purpose in cinema. If you forget who your main characters are, or suddenly lose investment, because you can't see their face... I don't even know how to respond to my hypothetical.
@@kylefrank638 no where in my comment did I mention using stunt doubles was a bad thing I said kudos to the actors for training for that scene since they managed to keep up with the professionals they were also in the scene with. There isn't anything wrong with stunt doubles they have a job to do but some actors prefer to do their own stunts and I think they deserve more credit for that.
@@electraheart7745 I was kind of projecting the video's own words onto yours, because I really really do not agree with what she said about actors' faces being shown on camera for an entire intricately choreographed fight. She says "people who dislike the throne room fight probably don't like that greater expertise has been replaced with being 100% certain that the people on screen are our actors, who are not going to be as good as specifically stunt performers, most of the time". What I was saying is that I definitely do not lose investment in a good conflict just because I'm not seeing my favorite character's face often enough. I agree with you that actors who want to do their own stunts are admirable, but in this case, however much work Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver put into their training was undercut by how the choreography looks like, as the video says, "stage" fighting. As in, the movements and blows look like they were mapped out to not have much weight to them, just be flowy and appealing. Movies can afford to go one step further than stage productions though. They can refine a fight to look more convincing than a live performance, that has to account more for timing and the players' safety, right there in front of an audience. At the end of the day, I don't think actors who do their own stunts deserve credit simply for accepting that optional part of the job; they do deserve credit if they master it. For me, it more comes down to the choreographers being at fault here. The fact that they got stunt performers (as the guards) who still botch the timing and do unnecessary twirls and shiz in order to not kill the heroes and be killed themselves... the fact that they have Ridley holding her arms in at her sides with some swings, looking really unprofessional, but she's still supposed to be the most OP Force-user ever... it's like insult to injury.
@@kylefrank638 hmmm, you make a fair point. i can see both sides of the "face in fight scene" argument. i've seen plenty of fight scenes where the faces aren't always visible and i'm still engaged. i've seen this fight scene which was an amazing cinematic experience the first time i watched though i also have my caveats quite similar to your's - and i see what Jill means by following the characters, the actors, and etc. i think it ultimately boils down to a creative choice (and, hopefully, the actors' consent) on the part of the makers, and a personal choice on the part of the consumer. and regarding TLJ's throne room scene where you mentioned how Ridley was swinging her arms about at her sides despite her character being an OP force user, it also boils down to...some messiness in the writing and the problem of having different creators with different visions in charge of each movie. perhaps it could've been different if the directors were the same (be it Rian or JJ or whoever!), etc. i also don't understand the way people yuck on Marvel's style of fight scenes - because they aren't even bad? and different Marvel movies have their own styles too!
@@Bluey306 I don't see what you mean when you say "writing and different creators" are responsible for something like Rey looking unrefined with a lightsaber, yet she kicks ass with it. All it tells me is, Daisy Ridley probably *could've* used a stuntwoman for some of this sequence, or just more training and a few more takes. There's a time and a place for the main actors and stuntpersons (?) to be used in a cinematic project. What I take issue with in this video is the lady essentially insinuating that it's okay for it to look both choreographed and sloppy, because (A that's what a stage production looks like, and B) it's difficult for even stunt workers to pull off. Those are poor excuses. It's a movie, not a play; there is far more room to streamline things because it's not performed live. And to lower the bar for stunt workers everywhere by saying an uncoordinated end result is fine because it happens to be masked by flashy colors and camera movements is downright insulting. The video creator does this kind of work herself. I would think she'd more disappointed than most with the end result of this throwdown in TLJ.
Loving your breakdowns. I'd love to hear your take on the Kylo vs Luke from TLJ. It's a short fight with no actual connecting attacks but that also means its completely character driven. There's actually a hell of a lot of character moments in there and I think the rare time we see a fully unleashed Kylo as his attacks are almost all rage filled killing blows. It's emotionally explosive and you can even see Luke tearing up as he sees how violently his nephew wants to kill him. It's a small moment but I noticed it. TLJ is seriously one of my favorite films in general and I have a lot of respect for Rian Johnson as a meticulous writer who writes for his characters and doesn't compromise what they need in the story to develop their characters.
Yeah, it kind of upset me that the really vocal minority hated it so much they completely backtracked. I would have loved to have had Kylo in the 3rd film, every time he wanted to do something bad, Force Luke would be there with him , just chiding him, just like he promised in TLJ. It would have been great to see how they would have handled the many possibilities TLJ set up, instead of just bringing Palpatine back.
@@Lockn3s5 I still enjoy watching it, as long as I don't stop to think at any point, cos then nothing makes sense. there's lots of cool shots and stuff but it is all pretty silly if you think about it for one second.
@@EfftupSmith It's the laziest thing to ever come out of Star Wars. It watches like a checklist of things to pander to fans with. It doesn't even have an identity of its own. One of the worst things ever put to film
@@EfftupSmith Modern Star Wars generally suffers A LOT from a vocal minority hating on anything and everything. These people should just be ignored entirely for the sanity and enjoyment of everyone else.
Awesome analysis! I learned so much listening to you. And I agree, the throne room duel in TLJ is one of my favorite duels in all of Star Wars, because of the emotional connection and the narrative force of the fight.
I saw the guy "twirling to nowhere" at the start of the fight, then I saw him gracefully spin anyway for no reason, on my first viewing, and it broke my immersion. This left me analysing the fight for the remainder of my first viewing. :\ Edit:. I do still like your video tho, and I do still like the fight on subsequent viewings since I know to crank up my suspension of disbelief as the slow-mo kicks in for a sec haha.
This is a good point, and something to consider when using less perfect takes. People will likely not notice, but the spinning guy is kind of like Luke's terrible "force kick" in Jedi. You notice it and at least the remaining fight has you disconnected for a bit. You "saw behind the curtain", so to speak
@GiRayne This occurred to me rewatching LotR. During the Weathertop scene I went "hmm, not perfect there" and then went "eh, not fussed" so I carried on enjoying myself.
@GiRayne This. Even the fixation on plot holes as a mainstream phenomenon is only about a decade old, and it's coming at the expense of engagement with theme and story. TLJ generally acted as a lightning rod for this kind of thing (as well as people who hated it looking for anything to tar it with - there's a real sense that they couldn't allow themselves to acknowledge anything good in it except for the cinematography).
Bless you, Jill! As someone who loves The Last Jedi AND that fight in the Throne Room, I am applauding you making this video! Thank you, thank you, thank yoU!
This was very insightful. I'm very impressed that you took the time to get training in these various fighting styles, Ursa. You know, it's strange how different people value different things. I was not especially impressed or upset by the fight scene. But you know what did impress me? The method Kylo Ren used to kill Snoke. He was up against an unstoppable enemy, infinitely stronger with the force and capable of reading Kylo's mind like a newspaper. And he killed him using a simple double entendre. Words drive me wild. That was my favorite part of the movie.
I love that you referenced Zahn’s Star Wars books! My favorite books and I was so mad with they got relegated to Legends! And that fight scene you mentioned with her and Luke (as well as Mara herself) is awesome!
its interesting hearing you talk about this and it makes me want to hear your thoughts on the John Wick movies since the K man himself was trained to DO all the weapon handling and choreography and not have stunt doubles.
I’m really glad that this video points out that perfect choreography isn’t the most important thing. The Prequels alone are FULL of weird and nonsensical choreography that’s made just to be fun, but for some reason people just don’t give that same leeway to the Sequels.
I honestly genuinely love this fight scene. It’s just so emotionally engaging and visual. It’s like watching a ballet or something. I don’t care if it’s not as technically as complex as it could be, it’s just so beautiful to watch and a very engaging a way to tell a story. It made me feel so excited!
That's actually explains everything. I first liked this scene, then hated it, and now I can accept it's existence as it is. Pretty much like the movie in its entirety, scene was more ambitious than it could probably handle.
the thing is people are a lot more charitable when they like the rest of the movie. just look at the award fight from A New Hope. You can have the best fight scene ever but if people don't like the rest of the movie you are going to have problems.
Shadiversity critzise the sword fight from a realistic POV, while Jill from a Fight choreographer POV Which are two totally different judgements. I've seen many times Shadiversity stating that he respect a film fight for being a film fight, and that it is never ment to be realistic. His main Judgement is based on how "realistic" it is looking, not how character driven it is. Jill on the other hand has clearly loads of experience in stage/film fighting, where she clearly explains that the goal is never to look realistic, but to tell a character driven story. ................................................................................................................... In the end people don't seem to understand that NO movies (or tv series) are aiming for realizm, what they are aming for is storytelling, and all the stunts, fighting, dancing, singing, clothings, Lighting, set dressing etc etc are solely and only about telling a story. Yes there are many ways to tell a story, some grounded more in realizm while others are not, but in the end they are peaces of entertainment and they are showy and flashy, that's the point: Tell a story and looking good while doing it. However if it isn't looking good it has to do ONE most important thing: Make the audience connect with the characters, and that is often using the actors in front of the stunt performers so the audience can see their faces. .................................................................................................................... So shortly: Shadiversity would most likely just have fun and nerd around with Jill, and maybe they could teach each other different types of fighting, because real sword fighting and stage sword fighting are two totally different skills, and is even harder to learn when your muscle memory is adapted to one or the other. The most important part is that both should be respected for themselves, one for survival, the other for entertainment
I understand your perspective, but if we look at some other fights in media, there are more realistic fights that hold more significance than the example in this video. I understand the media wants the fight to look cool, and gripping your audience's attention is part of that. Stage combat can be both practical, and interesting watch. When three weapons landed on Rey's saber, it would have added more realism if she dropped it, and then had to avoid three attackers in order to retrieve it. Would it have been difficult? Yes, but it would have also shown that Rey was still learning since there was little to no time between movies. Ben had the upper hand, and still struggled, which made his side so much better. A balance can be achieved, and still make a fight interesting. It's just a matter of what the actor preforms in the end, and what the audience sees is what determines how a fight stand's out.
@@MarkFilipAnthony >not how character driven it is Not very. They are fighting nobodies who, by all logic, should kneel to their new boss, but fighting for absolutely no reason. They also don't use force powers for some reason. edit >the goal is never to look realistic Never? Are you absolutely sure? For example, I liked a lot of fights in John Wick for how realistic it looked. I don't know if it's actually realistic(it most likely isn't), but it looks the part.
@@Vladislav888 the goal is for it to feel right, not to be right The fights in most movies are character driven, not just fighting for the sake of fighting Star wars is a space opera, the fighting is an extention of the characters, not just to protect themselves.
I just find this bit hard to believe: Guard 1: "Oh no, our boss has been killed by his successor... is Kylo our boss now? Guard 2: "Nah, let's just kill him and his girlfriend." Guard 1: "But then who will be our boss if Kylo's dead,... Hux?" Guard 2: "No, there is another... but he shows up in the next movie so we won't say anything until then just to confuse the audience." Guard 1: "Oh... okay, I guess."
I actually noticed the guards standing in the background waiting their turn the first time I watched the movie. However, I really loved the fight once they killed one or two of them. At that point there was no more waiting in the background and the fight became much better.
Honestly, the initial few holding back didn't bother me that much. Force users are terrifying and at some point too many people makes you either a bunched up target for multiple kills or causes you to have to risk hitting your coworkers. Plus you can maybe get a feel for their fighting style a bit before jumping in. Though to be fair, I would have just been like "don't notice me" and then leave or immediately surrender. No lies. Non force user v Force user requires much greater numbers to win then they had in the throne room.
Well done! Can't argue with the points you make. 👍 But, I still don't like it.😏 That said, *your video is fantastic.* Not just your technical knowledge, but how you present it to the viewer. With light humor, and without an attitude of superiority, which I feel many on both sides of *TLJ* argument can have. You are clearly knowledgeable, and there seems to be and air of respect,¹ as well as empathy, for the viewer. Thanks for the time and effort to share this information and viewpoint. Be well. 😷 •••●●●••• *¹* ─ This seeming respect may not be due everyone, but it is at least appreciated by me.
Thank you! I mean, I'd never argue it's a fight to emulate in terms of technical correctness, but there are a lot of things I appreciate about it in context.
I loved this seen for all the things you mentioned. Their connection and trust in one another makes the betrayal right after all the more impactful. This is my all time favorite Star Wars movie and I can never get enough of it. I saw it 5-8 times in theaters including 3 or 4 within the first week.
Out of the 3, I definitely enjoyed TLJ the most. It was the only one that gave me the same feeling I had watching the originals as a child. It had its problems for sure, but I liked it a lot! It's the only one of the sequels I rewatched.
This might be one of the last movies where the “if you see faces, it’s the real actor” paradigm can be applied. With the advent of “deep fakes” and face-swapped video, we could see this in even small indie films. Potentially student films.
The only issue is the acting would be the stunt doubles expressions under the actor's copied on face. Which I suppose if you had the stunt doubles work on mirroring the actors' faces for a while would work. Presumably in a few generations we could get a computer to animate believable copies of the acting someone would do over a person's face who is doing something completely different...
@@LC-sc3en I think your second statement is where I was going with this. Eventually, what we're going to have is a stunt double whose face will be entirely "painted out" by generative fill (or something else) and then the filmmaker will be able to "paint over" that stunt double's lack-of-a-face with new emotion/acting from the top-billed actor. That's kind of where I was getting the "existentially horrifying" part of my second comment. Granted, this does give me an interesting idea for a short story...
I remember watching bootleg footage of this scene just to track which guards had which weapons and who they were fighting at different points and stuff, the sense of where everyone is in the room is so good. I love this analysis and it reassures me that I'm on the right track in my own attempts at critiquing how fight choreography is used in SW. The Legends reference was also very welcome! I hadn't thought about that but you're right it's totally a similar moment
I just recently discovered this channel, and as a martial artist/ theatre nerd myself, I am loving it. Thank you for putting it out there that this stuff has dual priorities: display for story purposes and the logic of fighting, with the display being the indispensable part. And thank you for pointing out that tiredness matters! I'm spacing out my viewing, but I look forward to the video on the Princess Bride fight. That said, may I offer a few suggestions that you might want to check out? 1. Any fight scene from the old Wild Wild West show. Not the Will Smith film. 2. The Adventures of Robin Hood. Basil Rathbone, Errol Flynn, and one extremely busy stuntman whose name I forget. 3. The Chinese Connection. Either the alley fight or Bruce Lee vs. Chuck Norris. The tall guy is hilarious. Again, love your work.
Honestly, the most (like 99%) of arguments against this particular fight I've heard is about the technical part. I understand that we're talking about humans and time recording and not cgi, but it's Disney and Star Wars we're talking about, couldn't they come up with a coreography feasible for the actors, the time and money they were working with? I'm not getting into the "emotional" part because that's a completly different debate.
I mean have you seen Episode II Anakin vs Dooku? Where you can't see half the fight and it is just flashing red or blue in front of the actors faces... and where Anakin does a spread eagle with his arms while Dooku does a slow spin so that he can have his arms cut off. Or even Episode III Anakin vs Dooku? The ending in that fight was equally "well this is where the fight is supposed to end so let's just have one character stand and do nothing while the other wins". That's the entire point made here, a group fight is never easy, no matter how simple the choreography there are a lot of moving parts because if a part is ever not moving people will notice. This is a choice for more emotional connection over exact technical and that is a choice and it is a choice we have seen made even in 1v1 fights in star wars. In other words "couldnt they have just....." No, No they couldnt.
@@schmelzwah I'm not an expert on sword fighting (or theatrical for this matter), so probably I won't be able to name other moves they should have done, and yes, I can be forgiving in somethings, as I understand it's meant to be not only practical, but with a message and, as said in the video, an emphasis on the emotions (depending on the director, I suppose), that's why I can understand her supporting herself momentarly on his back (even though it looks kind of unrealistic, don't know if it's the move in itself or the actors) to show they're in synch, I can understand the movie taking a moment to show someone's reaction instead of showing that character inmediatly jumping back into the action, I can understand that not every single hit of a fast peaced fight looks credibly hard... but we're talking about a single fight performed by young people or trained people, with all the money that Disney has and a franchise that's been relevant for 40 years, you're telling me that they spend more time, or fix later on, things like vanishing knives, multiple actors missing the target at a time (right in the first line)(multiple times), being "pushed away" because the enemy hit the floor in front of them or just one of them got kicked, blades that go through lightsabers... I could understand in a scene of a battle, where multiple individual fights are happening at once, but the one's the main character is in, I expect them to be better. As for the ones you mentioned, the only one I can agree with is when Anakin gets his hand cut off, yes, Dooku could have been faster, but it doesn't look as bad as a top guard twirling toward Rey just to go over her head or being "pushed" and looking like a ballerina. It'd be cool if the fight scenes would be more dance-like, had other style, but not as they're design. I can understand the move between Rey and Kylo, as I said, as I can understand Dooku and Anakin using the lightsaber to try and see better (as I understand in both cases the story driven motives), but saying you can't see half of the fight... it's kind of concerning, Game of Thrones 2nd to last big battle being way to dask? yes, this one, no. As for the 2nd Dooku vs. Anakin, there's not a moment where he's waiting to get killed, I don't know where you got that one. Shadiversity has a quite long analysis of some fights in Star Wars, including this one's, he really goes in depth if it interest you.
One of the professional guards of the most powerful bad guy in the galaxy keeps spining around for no reason. Imperfection is when Anakin Skywalker blocks Dooku's lightsaber low Dooku fails to lop Akakin's head of. A goon spining around while the hero gets ready to be attacked is just lazyness.
Tunewalker No one ever tries to defend Anakin vs Dooku episode 2. Technically the canonical explanation in the novels is that it’s possible to put up force barriers to immobilize opponents. Which Maul does to Obi-Wan during the big zoom shot between the three fighters, Dooku does to Anakin when he lops off his arm. And Anakin does it to Dooku in their final fight. Back to the actual movie though, the actual Dooku fight in ROTS is really nice. Anakin and Obi-Wan have some nice teamwork as Dooku shows impressive defense against them. As for “standing there and letting something happen? Where? Dooku is locked in a saber bind and Anakin grabs Dooku’s hands as he moves. At no point does anyone just stand around during that fight.
@ monicabellu Agreed. Visual literacy seems to be increasingly absent from people critiquing visual media nowadays. If you're analyzing a fight scene, without telling me about how the camera makes the characters' choices and the dramatic tension explicit, and are only concerned about continuity errors, it becomes hard for me to take you seriously.
Y'know, as someone who walked out of the theater after watching The Last Jedi and immediately bought the saltiest food I could find to embody just how salty I was, and whose internet circles generally didn't like it either, I really appreciate this different perspective, both the technical behind-the-scenes style of analysis of the choreography and the more character-focused interpretation of the scene. Because you're right, The Last Jedi was indeed a bold movie and there are a number of things about it that really do have to be respected (and in fact did acknowledge and respect as I ate my salt)... even if the package as a whole did ultimately fail to hold up under its own weight for the duration of its runtime for me and as such I have to call it a bad movie for failing to meet the bare minimum for competence (immediately falling apart under fridge logic isn't good, but at least in that case the film has succeeded at creating a complete and enjoyable experience (and every story falls apart under fridge logic eventually anyway); if it falls apart before the credits roll though though, then it's inexcusable). This is just another area of the film where even though I didn't really care about the choreography in the moment (I was frankly still distracted by the broader context of the scene and how Snoke very explicitly should have seen that attack coming, and also a stab would not cut him in half), I now know enough about it to respect it despite its many many flaws, and have new knowledge about film production in general that I can carry forward.
Hi Jill! I just recently discovered Your channel (really wish I'd get a recommendation a decade sooner!) I wanted to tell You that I started this video with an opinion, and 17 minutes later I switched camps. The details You point to, and the explanations provided, were ones I never considered. Good job! Great video.
I only once did a sword-fight for a movie once in my life. And it was fun shooting it. Unfortunately my fight-partner couldn't count. It's kinda dangerous when you should only hit 3 times and your partner counts to 4 and aims a real sword towards your face XD I have a huge respect of people who can actually do that.
It didn't help we both had no idea what we were doing. Just stupid tweens swinging 12lbs heavy metal swords around with no prior training. It's a miracle nobody got injured XD
@@benbailey3106 He was swinging a Katana. I was swinging a sword that is called "sword of light". A 1,5-Hander. And yes, more ceremonial than anything XD
It's so awesome to finally see an educated person understandig the purpose of this scene! It feels like every youtube analysis completely misses the point of this fight, focusing only on the technical aspect like that's its primary purpose instead of appreciating how emotionally charged it is. Thank you!
Sure, it's impressive from this perspective. It was emotionally charged even. It just got nullified by the ending and even further by the next movie. So it's borderline impossible to look at that fight in good light. Them there's another type of educated person, it's person who knows the lore, and amongst almost anything else on that movie, it went intentionally directly against the established ideas. Nothing wrong with that at face value for sure, but there needs to be a reason why rules are broken.
I pretty much didn't care about the fight because I didn't care about the characters and because the outcome was never in question. I was fascinated and very hopeful when Kylo asked Rey to come with him - if she accepted then that would have been awesome and fascinating. But the fight itself was visually and emotionally invalidated from the very beginning, even by the setting and appearance of the throne room.
John Wick was a crazy exception to the rule that stunt people will always do it better... Reeves *became* Wick to do the moves necessary to make the shots real (pun intended)
And Mark Hamill became Luke Skywalker forever. Ewan McGreggor can still do on the spot the lightsaber stunts he was taught to make those movies 20 years ago because he was trained to do them, not to fake doing it.
There is a difference between realistic vs realism. No one wants realistic as realistic fights usually don't last long and the deciding blow is very quick. However, most people want realism or also known as believability. Realism draws and immerses us in a fight as we believe that it's a fight that's actually happening. A half ass fight looks noticeably worse. Like when a character kicks one person but all three enemies fall back, that's half ass. Also I feel you're kinda ignoring one important point. These are all paid actors and professionals...this is their job, so proper choreography is not much to ask for.
Yeah, even with the "but 25 takes" thing, I don't know how it can just be written off. As far as I know, Ewan McGregor didn't have sword experience before Episode I, but I don't think anyone could say he cut corners on his fights. Has the bar been lowered?
It's kind of funny when it comes to this scene... When the movie came out and I watched it with my friends, EVERYBODY afterwards agreed that this was one of the highlights. Even those who didn't exactly like the movie itself. And online, it felt like generally, people also really enjoyed it... again, regardless if they like the rest of the movie. And then the backlash started, it became cool to hate on the movie, and all of a sudden, this scene turned from "really amazing!" to "ahhh.... kinda flawed" to "terrible! What were they thinking?!" I don't think it's a scene that you either love or hate (or at least that's not true for the majority of the audience). It's rather a scene that, when you hate the movie and want to pick it apart on every level to show how bad it is, it gives you PLENTY to nit-pick until it appears to be a terribly made scene. Not saying everybody who hates this scene is just looking for flaws because they hate the movie. And I get that some people hated this scene right from the get go... but I do think this aspect makes up a big part of the backlash against this scene.
I almost feel that the church fight in Kingsman is so unbelievable well made and edited - a single longtake with over a hundred performers yet entirely focused on a single character - that it ruins most other movie fights that don't have the same level of technical brilliance and spectacle. And that's when you get marmite scenes: scenes which emphasize one aspect over another, like the one in Last Jedi. But to be fair: I do appreciate the scene and the choices they made. I prefer in moviefights focus on characters, and not just spectacle or choreography, because that would make fights boring to watch.
Disclaimer: I like your videos a lot, your explanation of the character points in the Will vs Jack sparrow fight scene being the first video i watched of yours, and yet i have to disagree with your assessment of this scene, This scene comes in a series with a lot of history of lightsaber fight scenes,and although some have goofy moments(The spinny sword technique of Episode 3) they almost always have a lot of character moments packed inside of actually convincing action, My main problem with this fight scene is that it felt rushed into existence(From memory i think they even said they did only a few takes of this scene, but don't quote me on that) The kick that hits 3 people at once, the disappearing knife, the part where rey's head would have been chopped of by a guards blade, The guard who just spins around for no reason, the one guard who purposefully misses cause Daisy Ridley was in the wrong place. These are things that show they didnt take enough time to get the scene right. But if you then look at the behind the scenes of the Anakin vs Obi Wan fight in Episode 3 or the duel of the fates in Episode 1. They are doing full speed, full contact sparring getting every move perfect for the final product. That's the level of passion a lot of fans expected from this movie and the fight scene just showed how little the team behind it cared about the final product or the universe its in. Coming less from the background of Stage Combat and more Medieval Full contact sparring im more inclined towards the fight scenes that ican look at and understand by putting myself in thier shoes. watching the Luke vs Vader scene in episode 5 and remembering fighting a much more skilled opponent when i was still learning to fight. The fierce desperation in the Ani vs Obi fight in EP3 which makes me think of fighting a long battle with an equally skilled opponent where its more a test of who gets tired and makes a mistakes first rather than who can gain the upper hand. but when i look at a Fight scene like that throne room scene the only thing i can be reminded of is play fighting on the playground as a child, and that really just robs any sense of weight the scene was trying to build in me
They actually did 19 takes for the scene, which is honestly kind of pathetic considering the plethora of mistakes. I think that the choreography that the stunt coordinator drew up for the fight was the rushed part, not the practice and effort from the stuntmen. Either way, the fight is pretty bad.
If we want to compare it to other saber duels in star wars, remember that Episode II anakin vs Dooku exists. Where it has almost nothing but flashing lights in the actors faces and then is capped off with a character spreading his arms open for no reason waiting for them to be cut off while the other does a super slow spin. Honestly the Anakin vs Dooku fight in III isn't much better to me as it ends in a similarly hilarious way of one person just standing there while the other does a series of somewhat complex moves to just "win", those are actually the prequel fights in a nutshell, a bunch of spinny dancy moves that just go until "well this is where the fight is supposed to end so now we contrive a way for this person to lose" without any feeling of progression to that point Episode 1 is the strongest fight scene of the prequels in the case that it feels like people testing each others defenses and one finally getting through, but it is ALSO the one of the least emotinal ones because the villain is just cool looking and played by a stuntman, 2 is the worst where even the fight itself almost doesnt exist, even Obi vs Anakin, even though it is well handled here, it is just a super long fight where "ok it needs to end, Obi has the high ground now and Anakin is going to do something dumb and reckless so we can end the fight", despite him having the high ground or anakin having that ground multiple times throughout the fight and the characters behaving in a way to keep the fight going. You come from Medieval Full contact sparing as you said... how many of those had group fights? Maybe the reason you identified with the previous fights is because you identified with the story of a 1 on 1 fight better than a 1 on many fight. From a sparing perspective or a fight perspective 1 vs many should typically not even be possible so the moment they made it a group fight you were going to feel "play fighting". Go look at a bunch of martial arts movies with group fights, there is ALWAYS a character in the background that could be attacking that isn't, it is a running joke, and that is the point of the video. There was a clip in this video where they SHOT (Not practiced) 1 scene over 25 times.
@@2ndairborneguy790 I don't blame the actors for their mistakes, because you really can't expect people who have limited martial arts backgrounds to perfectly execute complex choreography. I can blame the choreographer for going beyond the ability of the actors to perform.
For someone disparaging their own eyesight, you catch a lot of details. I haven't even begun to understand this main fight, nor even noticed the "mistakes" - I just knew I liked it. You put it to words so very well.
One thing I love about this fight *was* that the red curtain lining the walls of the room burn down throughout the fight. It highlights the fall of Snoke. If that was practical then it would have been a bitch to reset, though; I'm pretty sure it was mostly CG. Now that you've brought my attention to it: My new favorite part of that fight scene is how it establishes the bond between Ray and Ben. We spend the movie with their force connection moments and they feel like they're based on or at least building an emotional connection between the two, then Snoke says it was his own doing which makes the audience think, "was it all a mind trick? It felt like a genuine connection." Then they hammer home the fact that Snoke messed up and the connection between Ray and Ben is real. Either fostered by Snoke or at least undetected.
As someone who just never managed to find myself hooked by the relationship (platonic, romantic, or otherwise) between Rey and Ben, I can't explain how delightful it is to watch someone talk so passionately about character moments like these! I got to feel secondhand butterflies when you talked about that back-bracing moment near the end :)
Don't stop making videos. I love what you have going here. You break things down without talking down to people or being overly critical. You have perfect balance in your videos. 😀😀
This is my second-favorite fight of the Star Wars franchise and I had no clue it was controversial! (Aside from the whole movie being so 😅) thanks for the really interesting breakdown!
Former VFX artist here. If a shot is really quick, it could definitely be a stunt performer even when you can see the actor's face. I've worked on a couple of movies where the best take showed the stunt performer's face so we just had to put the main actor's face on top of the stunt performer. It's hard to spot if we did the work right, but it's there. In this movie, Rey would be much harder to swap than Ben due to the costuming. She has some fairly skintight wrappings and more exposed skin. Ben has flowing hair and is covered from neck to toe.
I'm sorry for leaving a small novel here, but your video helped me realize some things about the scene, I couldn't grasp until now. Your take that this scene pretty much polarizes, just as the movie as a whole, makes all the sense to me, because I might be one of the few people who's kinda lukewarm (no pun intended) about both, the scene and the movie 😅 the scene has some very cool elements, which you already highlighted (like them turning their backs, her throwing him the saber, the spinning shot followed by a zoom on her, etc), but the flaws/mistakes in the choreography are too off-putting to me personally to fully enjoy it. Even when I watched it for the first time in cinema something about it was off to me. On a repeated watch it was most of the things you mentioned. The actors missing a beat or being too early, stunt guys standing in the frame without proper direction or exercising choreographed moves that didn't make sense, etc. I'm on the one hand totally with you, that it's more important to choose the footage that's conveying the story the best, but on the other hand I don't like handing in a flawed product and two of the aspects you already mentioned were flawed but fixable imo: 1. The framing They decided to film a group fight with wide shots and long takes, which is very very bold. And if you're making the choice to do something that ambitious, I think mistakes are way more obvious. And with slightly different framing and editing some mistakes could have easily been prevented, without changing the overall concept of the fight. 300 had a very similar scene of two fighters against a group of enemies whilest fighting back to back, which was also a long take, but they constantly rotated the camera around the two protagonists, so the background wasn't as much of an issue as it's here. Whatever wasn't of interest simply left the frame due to the spinning. You're correct that they properly frame the important parts in the middle here, but the background is still there and, at least to me, often very distracting. So, yay long take, but nay wideshot. 2. Keeping the actors Of course actors aren't trained stunt people, so you're completely correct that they have to be forgiven if they don't deliver as well. But I think these two could have performed better under different circumstances. The star wars prequels, especially ep 3, followed the same approach of keeping the use of stunt doubles to a minimum and the actors, especially McGregor and Christensen worked their asses off, leading to their fights being nearly flawless. It's a very different style of fighting to be fair, but also very complicated and physically challenging as hell and they pulled it off with proper training and enough time given. You're absolutely right that too many takes after another are not an option, because the actors tire out, but that's easily fixed by shooting one scene on multiple days, like they do in Hongkong for example. Of course that's really expensive, but, as you said, it's Disney. They got the money. And that's finally why I simultaneously like and dislike the scene. It's very ambitious, with lots of great elements and, just like the movie overall, it tries to push the franchise to new levels. But it's also very flawed, partly because their ambition was maybe a bit higher than the skill involved, but mostly because they didn't fix mistakes that they had the capacities to fix. But all my complaining aside, if this was the scene that inspired you to pick up stage fighting, it's an incredible piece of art that you obviously hold very dearly and that's the most important thing. Thank you so much for your insight about it.
This comment exactly! Sounds like the scene is a terrible fight but a great moment. I loved the emotional beats. This was a really good moment in the movie. Unfortunately, I saw the movie after hearing about how they butchered this fight, so I knew the choreography was bad. I'm not very detail otiented when watching movies and probably would have missed most of the issues... but there were so many issues with the choreography that the fight does feel a bit fake even to the casual watcher. The issue with this fight is that the choreography is bad enough to take away from the scene. It probably doesn't ruin the scene for most casual viewers, but it does take away from it, and it will certainly ruin the scene for (most) people that care about choreography. If they couldn't handle that many peoplenon screen they could have simply had aditional guards come out of 2 doorways in the side of the room, making the characters have to deal with 1-3 at a time on each side, but allowing additional enemies to be moving toward the fight. Instead you see a bunch of lightsaber swings at nothing. If that happens to draw your eye, it can really hinder your enjoyment of the scene.
Also the distraction element for the plot. You just killed the Big Bad without laying the groundwork for any future subordinate to take his place. Both lesser bad guys, Hauk(?) and Kylo Ren are not intimidating. Rian Johnson destroyed his credibility with the mom jokes and the Force Drag takedown earlier in the movie. and Kylo Ren is on a redemption arc and before that, he's a Darth Vader emo fanboy with anger control issues. Neither of them are good enough leaders to pose a serious threat to the galaxy. No gravitas. Like the idea that Po is going to take over the resistance, its not in his character. He's too reckless. But then, the First Order became the Empire Reborn despite losing their superweapon and a large chunk of their forces at the end of the first movie. Rian Johnson just wanted to deconstruct Star Wars because of its history and fame. He never cared about the story or the characters.
@@ericpeterson8732 I pretty much disagree about anything you wrote, but am also pretty sure I won't change your mind 😂 I give you that the first order suddenly being the empire is weird, but that's a problem that the force awakens had already. Their exposition on why everything is how it is, is really bad for a sequel. But that's it. Poe being too reckless is the whole point of ep8. That's his arc. Leia teaches him to be less reckless and to think ahead. And at the end he has learned his lesson and steps up as a leader. That's pretty much a flawless character arc. And now the big one: When Snoke died I was amazed! The thought of Kylo Ren being in charge was so terrifying, because he is not on a redemption arc in the first two movies. They give him multiple chances to redeem himself and he either deliberately doesn't accept them or he "fails" in his perspective, when he can't kill Leia. The thought of this angry unstabile person, who actively embraces the dark side was such a great and threatening idea. Too bad ep9 fucked it all over.... I also don't really see ep8 as a deconstruction as a whole. Johnson and his team made changes to push star wars to new levels and in my imo they mostly succeeded. There was stuff I personally disagreed with. I wasn't a fan of Luke being a self loathing hermit for example. Making the protagonist of a former series a self loathing hermit style mentor in a sequel is a very common trope and imo a bit lazy. But although I don't agree with that choice, they made it work. It's a well written arc with amazing pay off, I just personally wished they did something more unconventional with Luke. So to summarize and to come back to my first comment, the writing is not my problem with the scene. I think it's a set up for a really interesting idea and them working together against the guards is amazing, I just have problems with the execution of this scene, that's it.
@@jc-kj8yc can i ask what about lukes payoff was amazing exactly? He has a double fakeout that doesn't really make sense and Realistically that diversion probably wouldn't have even done anything since he never told the rebals how to get out or even what he was going to do so they just assumed he got in somehow and got lucky that there just so happened to actually be a way out instead of just getting stuck in the tunnels and dieing slightly later from the first order after he was killed not really but actually
@@11111111cupcake it's a movie series about wizards wielding glowy sticks in space. I don't need realism :D and from a Storytelling perspective this payoff is great. It's him finally accepting his role and stepping up. He becomes the big savior half the galaxy thinks he is and he uses Kylo's fears and insecurities against him by provoking him and letting him literally punch (and shoot and slice) the air in stupid, blind rage. It doesn't matter that he was a projection. He did what he could and saved everyone. Giving hope to the galaxy one last time. And him finally becoming one with the force by staring into the two suns is downright poetic. George Lucas once said that Star Wars isn't supposed to repeat itself, but to rhyme itself and Luke deliberately sacrificing himself to save the next generation and dying at peace with himself during is a perfect rhyme to what Obi Wan did for him. And Obi Wan also didn't know if his actions would definitely safe Luke and his friends. They still had to get to the Falcon and get out of there, so Luke not definitely knowing if they could leave the cage is a really minor nitpick. Also he has the power to transcend himself through space. Not too big of a stretch to assume, that he felt Rey approaching them from the other side. Again, I'm not a huge fan of what arc they chose for Luke in ep8, but I give them props for at least telling the resulting story very competently.
I think this fight is so thrilling because the connection between Rey and Kylo is as complex as it is intense. Their bond is so strong, but it's not simply a bond of absolute trust. It's also absolute trust in that moment when they both kinda, without realizing it, know that they may not be on the same page at all. It's the hottest sex you've ever had with someone you're not sure you really know. Is this going to be a marriage, or a mess?
I adore this fight. I remember being in the cinema and feeling like throwing up from all the emotion and tention. Its just so good. Im all about the connection
"You can't just keep doing a take over and over again until it's perfect" unless you are Jackie Chan and you do a fan trick that is a few seconds long 120 times until you get it right.
One minor thing I really appreciate about this fight after having to deal with "how can Kylo be an effective villain when Rey already beat that one time when he had several handicaps?" people for a while, I realized that this fight shows pretty clearly (if you look for it) that Kylo is a better fighter. I believe he gets 5 kills to Rey's 3, and he's regularly tangling with several guys at once while she struggles with one or two at a time. He generally knows what he's doing when he hasn't recently been shot (as shown by how easily he takes out the Knights of Ren in the next movie). Also, if you've never seen it, the video of this fight put to Immigrant Song is amazing.
What I will always love about new Star Wars is the crossguard lightsaber, and how Kylo Ren uses his. It looks like a longsword, and it feels like a longsword. Not a club, mind you, but a very big and very powerful blade. He does wide swings, brutal slashes, and forceful hacking. It may be less technical, but it sells me how strong and powerful he is.
Watching this I have a bit more perspective. Personally I feel there are scenes in this movie that portray the characters better than how this fight did. Kylo fighting Luke's Force Projection was a better scene than this, even though not a single blow was exchanged and there was no lightsaber clash. It showed Kylo's rage and recklessness when it came to fighting and showed the ease Luke had, because he never had any intention to ever win in the first place. I don't feel for these characters so I guess the emotions of the scene don't reach me like they do for you, so the only thing I have to fall back on is how the scene looks from a different perspective than your own.
I can't believe that a direct-to-camera monologue in front of a green screen can be so singularly engrossing. It speaks volumes that your personality can carry a video like this. Brava! You're going places.
They should of picked up Nick Gillard from the Prequels. He was the Stunt coordinator that gave us Duel of the fates fight, to Darth Vader vs Obi-Wan Kenobi in Revenge of the Sith. He gave us masterpieces. Whomever was there in the sequel trilogy, looked more like something a couple of friends would do in their back yards. The stunt performers were amazing, and elevated the fights as you've said before. However, there is only so far you can elevate garbage. Kylo a trained fallen Jedi looked like a brute, and Rey, looked like a novice. That some where rolled a crit and won off of that. The character choice of style of fighting for Rey never fit either. Too often she fights with one hand, when she doesn't have the stature for it. IT would of been more believable to me for her to fight most often with a two handed grip so she had the most control and ability to resist the incoming heft with both arms. Especially in the throneroom fight. Now, if Rey had adopted a form of lightsaber fighting akin to Count Dooku's Form 2 Makashi. The ok, i'm totally with it, and lets go! But Rey didn't do that. This isn't slight at Daisy, but a slight against the directors, and stunt coordinators that gave the ok for her to fight mostly one handed. With Kylo i buy him being able to fight one handed out of his height and power alone. But hell he fights alot of his scenes with an jujutsu style of fighting, in the fact that he uses his opponents weapons, and momentum against them. When Kylo swings, it has power, and determination, and i'm sold on it in ever scene he does. Rey, almost always looks like a novice that is just swinging wildly.
Only in the prequels should the should the duels have been technically proficient. That is when the Jedi were at their peak, if already haven fallen into decadence. Every other film it was half trained kids substituting magic for training or broken oldsters substituting magic for physical ability.
@@jacobvardy No doubts there. But hell if you going to make 2 characters most powerful force users in the galaxy, might as well add some decent lighsaber combat to it. How you see Rey in beginning of RoS, is how she should of been seen somewhere in 2nd movie, and then Kevin T's version of Rey would of been so much better than what we got. pls note my problems are with the character, and not the actors. I always found the performances just fine, but it was the characters and the story decisions made for them I have problems with.
Personally, I really enjoy fight analysis from people with a genuine martial arts background (such as medival longsword fighting). But on the other hand, this analysis from a stage fighters perspective is equally interesting. Could we have a collab with someone from the HEMA (historical european martial arts) community at some point?
@@JillBearup The ones that first come to mind would be Matt Easton ("scholagladiatoria"). Another youtuber that regularly does fight reviews is SnapJelly. Skallagrim, one of the larger HEMA youtubers occasionally does these too. Those are some that I can think of off the top of my head, and of whom I know that they actively practice historic swordfighting (with Matt Easton being an instructor).
@@JillBearup if it involves weapons, Matt Easton, Skallagrim or Shadiversity are good options. If it's hand to hand, Ramsey Dewey or Stephen Thompson can give a lot of great input.
This duel is absolutely one of the COOLEST in film, in my honest opinion. So many of the complaints I have heard come from people who claim the Star Wars prequels duels (as fun as they are) are flawless, and refuse to acknowledge when characters literally just stand still or twirl swords at dangerously inopportune moments. I love every Star Wars entry individually, but episodes 7 and 8 have the most believably realistic fights in the franchise.
Honestly looking back on the scene, it’s really good. However, I think it gets tainted by some of the other movie choices that many people went “wait what?” Edit: can we just appreciate how Daisy Ridley in the course of three movies has gained so much skill and practice in fighting choreography? She’s amazing
And I like the movie for exactly those choices, the once that dare to challenge the universe's established principles (the Jedi order that can't do any wrong, for instance). Shaking up the worn-down "good vs bad", "light vs dark" framework is exactly what the franchise needs, so it's sad that it apparently resonated so poorly with parts of the audience (who apparently saw tainting their perfect golden boy Luke as a huge issue). Glad to see that Asohka doing the same is apparently received a lot better (see Clone Wars season 7).
I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised people hate the fight given how people hate the movie. I loved the movie and loved the fight. The movie wasn’t just a rehash of old plot beats. It had something to say. And the fight fit it perfectly, because even after this fight, Kylo is still Kylo, and he hasn’t learned what he needs to to become Ben again, and because of that, he is still willing to burn it all down, as shown by him destroying the most iconic prop. So good!
Jill: Starts explaining why fight scenes can not be perfect... due to actors being tired and pointing out how it's the actors themselves Me: John Wick would like to have a word with you...
Well, if one considers that Keanu Reeves is a very special person who has the perfectionism and work ethos of a robot makes for a very special combination. Also, most of the John wick fights is between Keanu (who is pretty much as much of a stuntman as any) and other stunt professionals. And has been doing that for most of his life until now. So there is no comparing. This is not a normal situation.
Not to mention, Keanu's done this kind of thing a while-at least, he trained for the Matrix in the late 90s. I think he trained that for six months, and that was a movie with a lot of wire-work (i.e, a lot of the choreography didn't necessarily rely on him alone.) Meanwhile, for all I know, this was their first major action think of this scale (it's more complicated than a lot of Keanu's stuff, too, or so it seems.)
The biggest difference though, is that this one particular scene is with 2 actors and a stuntcrew of.. 8-10 people. In a long continuous shot. While John Wick stunts are WAY better executed, they are more divided with different angles and more 1-on-1 CQB. There are some long shots as well, but rarely more than 3 people in that sequence. While i am not a fan of the TLJ movie, fair is fair.
Something else to factor in... The Star War's films are shot and produced in two year cycles, compared to three as it usually happens. This is a full year taken off the production schedule where they could practice more and nail the steps one sequence at a time. I guess it made sense to Disney at the time as Star War's still had the hype factor back then, but when you make something that used to take three years, and do it in two, your taking away alot of wiggle room to look at what didn't work, while losing the time to enact quality control on the finished product.
Making your opponent's weapons disappear, more commonly known as "disarming" them, is a valid fight strategy. I know that you're trying to reframe the discussion back to the technical flaws of the sequence, but it also shows you're ignoring the point Jill is trying to make in this video.
I love film, it is my favorite story telling medium, and hearing your take on films has been amazing. I've seen behind the scenes and scene breakdowns from directors, cinematographers, actors, stuntmen, and even real world professionals involved in the story's focus, and yet you still managing to bring new things to scenes I wouldn't have thought of. Hearing a stage fighter's perspective on fight scenes has done much more to open my mind and appreciate my favorite pass-time even more. Thank you so much for your content. P.s. I'm glad I'm not the only one who likes this scene.
I'm just here for Ben getting called a "murderous pouty space numpty"
Some turns of phrase I am particularly proud of; that is one of them.
Jill Bearup :o you used the Semicolon correctly
"numpty" and "muppet" are my two favorite british derogatory remarks :D
Thank you for translating
It's pretty accurate :P
_"think of stage fighting like a cooperative martial art, or possibly, bizarrely violent dancing"_
*Brazilians:* ah yes, *capoeira*
Bizarrely violent dancing also makes me think of the Hakka.
Or maybe a two person katta like in kendo.
And fighting as a dialogue does work oh so much *dreamyface*
Ah yes , pro wrestling
Love your videos, Jill. I actually had an opportunity to talk to Adam about shooting the movie and he said that this scene was by far the most difficult. He mentioned in particular that timing the choreography with the burning cloth falling through the background was very tough, and that it was a practical effect that had to be reset after every take (which really drives home your point about the impracticality of just “redoing it until it’s perfect.”)
How’d you get a chance to talk to Adam?
Jackson Wright he’s my sister’s brother in law.
J. Kenji López-Alt wow it’s a small world I guess - love your channel and Star Wars equally. Thanks for making your videos, I’ve learned a lot - both how to be a better cook and person!
Whoa! THE J. Kenji López-Alt commenting on a movie fight scene breakdown! 😲 I have to say, when it comes to looking up the best approach to most things cooking related, I nearly always search out your recipes first. WWKLAD: What Would Kenji López-Alt Do?
What is this, a crossover episode? Last thing I expected was for you to be commenting on this video. You da man Kenji.
In terms of "never break character", back in highschool one of our PE class projects was to make a choreography (either dance or fight). A friend and I chose to do the fight scene and we practiced enough that at some point one of our prop weapons started breaking. We had a back up, but on the day of the show, we had left it at home so just performed w/ the damaged prop. At some point, it calls for a guard, but the stick breaks in half. We have like a second long pause and then just continued with the fight (thankfully it wasn't a long staff that required much 2-handed wielding).
Everyone came up after talking about how it was cool that we'd worked that into the choreography and really praised our acting surprised at the weapon being destroyed. aaaaand that's the limit of what I'd consider my stage combat experience
That’s amazing.
wow what kind of school did you go to that has a PE class allow dance or martial arts/staged fights? :o
Good story, wel told
"We totally planned that. Totally." 😂 Good on you for continuing the fight! That's why everyone thought it was meant to happen and that is awesome!
The most fun I have on YT is watching a video of someone talking about something they really, really enjoy. Thanks for sharing your enthusiasm. That was a treat. Wash your hands.
I'd also watch Stand-Up Maths it can be a lot of fun listening to him geek out about math.
@Corvus Morve
Absolutely. He's like the reincarnation of Bob Ross, the Joy Of Painting guy
I agree, enthusiasm (so long as it is aimed at something positive) is just the best, most infectious, emotion.
Once again why is there not a stunt category in the Oscars?!! The amount of work they put in! That's an art! Stunt choreography and performance deserves to get better recognition. It's hard work.
I don't really have a substantial bias here. I don't do stunts or know much about it but I know it is hard and amazing work that deserves more recognition than it gets.
If you make it an Oscar category, you probably have to pay more for the winners in future films! Hollywood is very good at funnelling money towards a small elite group (which often doesn't include writers and editors), and pleading poverty in the case of everybody else. I agree stuntwork deserves recognition, but it's just not going to happen (especially since it serves as a reminder of the limitations of the actors...)
A lot of work? Yes. Was it enough work? No. The fight scene is still embarrassingly bad.
These days they probably have enough technical know-how and skill knowledge that they should have their own category, to be honest, similar to sound design or editing or any of the other skills thrown into the art of entertainment.
Back in the start, though, it certainly seemed more slapdash and while clearly there was those who were skilled and talented, it didn't require the same kind of commitment. Remaining ever unsung.
I mean, I agree stuntmen should get more accolades, but this scene ain't winning anything.
I've been watching HEMA experts rip apart fights like this for a very long time. Half of me completely understands the frustration in some of their rants but the other half became frustrated that none of the experts were actually talking about how proper story telling came into play. This channel is exactly what I was looking for and I couldn't be happier.
There was a story?
I thought it was just Mary Sue saves the day and everyone loves her and she’s the best at everything, then slap in the exact same story as A New Hope so you don’t have to put any thought into the script, then chuck in an exposition-dump from some satsuma-looking thing and finally dump from a great height on anything Star Wars fans enjoyed about the franchise as well as the previous film in the trilogy.
On the other hand if you watch the corridor crew show where stunt actors talk about good and bad action scenes from many movies, the "throne room fight" regularly comes up as one which stunt actors and choreographers consider to be a terrible scene.
Bad timing, actors who obviously had not trained enough, who couldn't hit their marks, and poor choreography. It does not come up as one of the best choreographed.
In real life, people often like or dislike anyting. You can be going around giving $20 bills and find people who dislike that. You can go around slapping people in the face and there may be one or two people who like it.
The throne scene is generally disliked and by professionals it is considered bad work. But some people like it and that's okay.
Andrew Hill I think you missed the part where Luke trashes Rey for 2/3 of the movie, where she fails to prevent the 1st Order to shoot on the fleet, and fails to turn Kylo Ren to the light side... but yeah aside from that she’s a Mary Sue that everyone loves...
In addition, the entire point of this is to see the story- if i wanted realistic violence, i'd be watching boxing/mma, where real people engage in real violence. I mean, I don't think I've ever seen someone be realistically knocked out on film because to do that, you more or less have to knock the actor out (and even if you could pretend, a completely uncontrolled fall of the style someone who is unconscious might do is pretty dangerous).
@@reganator5000 You can have both. A big problem with the sequals as a whole is that they go too big, which is the same with this fight scene. There is a ton of faceless, nameless people performing fake-fu on each other, lots of movement etc but this dosen't have anywhere near the same emotional weight as Vader vs Luke, which is 2 dudes wailing on each other. In your climactic battle you want some static moments that show emotion, desperation, rage and perserverance. Less people make it more personal, and when they cross sabers you can have them spit insults at each other. This fight scene is more style over substance, focusing on Rey and Ben having joint peril against the red team...why not have a single praetorian captain who has dialogue prior and is acknowledged by snoke (maybe as Ben's possible replacement if he fails). Show him dominating Rey and Kylo at points, only for them to change tactics and come at him from different angles. As there is less to look at, the choreographers can spend more time perfecting the important components of the fight. Less becomes more.
As a martial artist, complaints about realism always bug me, unless the movie goes out of its way to be realistic and makes that a selling point, you generally don't want realism, since realist sword fights are usually either very short (if unarmored) or very long (if fought in armor).
This is a realistic sword fight scene (CW blood, death, Toshiro Mifune) th-cam.com/video/SfpagB8wWng/w-d-xo.html
Out of curiosity, do you know of any "realistic" (or close) sword fights in movies that are long and involve armor, as you describe? The only one I can think of is Holy Grail (:p). Fast, fluid unarmored fencing seems to work better onscreen.
@@kidthorazine Ah, Iaijutsu. The most boringest sword technique in history. And yet one I would abuse horribly, every chance I could get.
@Victor Kurske I think the craziest moment in all three sequel movies is Kylo moonwalking into one of his thrusts. Once again, all style, no thought of how it makes the fight look even more fake than Yoda's fights.
kidthorazine realism is needed to the extent where the audience is not left in disbelief.
The thing about this fight that I loved, was something that was very subtle, that on first viewing, I didn't catch right away. It's when they set the drapes on fire in the background. The rest of the action is so up front in the camera, that it's very easy to forget that the scene started with the entire set encased in blood red, glowing curtains. And then the final shot, is a dark, starscape, with stars and ships suspended in the background, and fluttering ashes and embers falling from the sky. And I remember seeing that part, when Kylo is talking to Rey in the post-fight afterglow, and my brain sort of going "...wait...something's wrong. What...what is it? When did they pull back the curtains?" And I didn't catch it really. I watched it the second time, and made a point to watch for it in the fight, when they burned the curtains, and how the action sort of makes you forget it happens. And then within the scene itself, the entire backdrop, is changed, from a red, angry, violent background, to one of a peaceful spacescape, with beautiful little flickers of glowing embers, floating down. And it's SO subtle, that EVERY person I have watched the film with, and asked them about it, completely didn't notice it, until I pointed it out. They would all answer "What background transition? It's been like that the whole scene." And then I rewind it, and show them, and they're just jaw dropped on how they missed that entirely. It's one of the few times I've been genuinely impressed by the cinematography of a film, and how subtly it was done. It's one of the reasons I really love Last Jedi.
I actually just did the same thing a few weeks ago, and that one little detail was so cool to notice and watch as the flames engulfed the curtains around the room and changed the feel of the fight and dialogue between Rey and Kylo at the end of the scene.
I never noticed that! I remember that sense of "wait, why has the room changed?", but totally didn't notice the curtains! Thanks for pointing that out, it makes the scene even better.
@@StarlitSeafoam No problem! Like I said, it seems to be a common trend, it happened to me too. But yeah I love little things like that in films.
It's change blindness - you're so focused on the action you don't notice what else is going on. It's a similar effect to the experiment where they ask you to count basketball passes, but don't notice the bloke in a gorilla suit walking across the set, or (in later versions) players leaving / entering.
@@mittfh yes i know, it's still a very good bit of visual storytelling to transition a scene background from one to another for maximum effect.
I appreciate that you point out how for most audiences watching this for the first time in a theater, it's okay for the whirlwind of stunt people to be imperfect when the stuntpeople were not intended to be the focal point. (I suspect Halloween costumes and cosplay are much the same; sure it's great to build a Han Solo costume so perfect that the stripes on his trousers are precisely the same width in millimeters as what Mr. Ford wore, but in the end what matters is, "Does everyone look at you and exclaim, 'Wow! Look at that great Han Solo costume!'? when they see you walk by." Attention to detail is good, but a 98% still gets the same grade as a 95%.)
(I never noticed an association between fight choreography and costuming until I thought about your commentary. Thank you for that!)
Your phrase that really caught my attention was: "...the point is not the fight itself. The point is how the fight affects the characters."
That's a good rule! (And it's a difficult one to carry out for me personally. I'm learning quite a bit from your analyses of these fight scenes.) Please keep up the great work!
It's a good rule as long as the fight itself has stakes. This one didn't have any stakes because the outcome was never in question. I was more distracted by how horrible and derivative the set looked, and how predictable some of the action was.
@@elimgarak1617 Completely agree. And for me if the fight itself is distractingly nonsensical, like this one was, it also cheapens the story of the fight by making it seem fake and feel like a poorly prepared performance.
When characters who are supposed to be trained fighters can’t fight, it immediately and forcefully pulls me out of the story because there’s a cognitive dissonance and contradiction between what it is telling me and what it’s showing me.
@@elimgarak1617 Not any stake ? Like Rey and Kylo Ren fighting TOGETHER after almost two films, watching for each other, but with the doubt of a reversal of loyalty at a moment of weakness, all of this was not enough for you ?
I LOVE that you mentioned the Luke/Mara bond from VotF... I wasn't sure if anyone remembered that stuff anymore!
The remarkable thing is the number of people that loath the new canon but forget things like this that have obviously informed the new canon.
We remember, we just don't talk about it because we are tired of dying inside jajaja
Same!
Another connection! Tim Zahn's Sw books are awesome...and he's done several collaborations with David weber in the Honor Harrington universe (referenced in another video)
Points for days for that.. And so logical!! sigh
I also LOVED that moment where rey grabs ben as a brace to do that kick and didn't at all have the words to describe why.... this laid it all out perfectly
Taken out of context: Her favorite moment in the fight is when someone grabs Adam Driver's butt.
I thought it looked cool. I uh, don't really watch star wars for perfect martial accuracy tbh lol.
That’s a good thing, because you’re not gonna find it
Someone literally standing around waiting for the protagonist to block is blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain. It has nothing to do with "martial arts accuracy". That's just plain common sense.
The movie punishes you for paying attention to it.
I love how positive you are. So many youtubers are so negative that your videos are a breath of fresh air
One of the reasons I love these videos is the fact you can acknowledge something is flawed and still say you like it. Stuff doesn't need to be 100% perfect 100% of the time.
I’ve gone back and forth on this scene - when I first saw it in the theater, I effing loved it. There were several standout moments and it really leaves a strong visceral impression. Then as I rewatched it, it started bothering me how telegraphed it seemed, and how much the stuntmen had to overcompensate for Daisy Ridley. But after watching this video and really thinking about it from a visual and storytelling perspective, I think it definitely works. It does exactly what it’s supposed to do, which is advance the plot.
I loved it, too. I thought, wow, they finally did a real massive lightsaber fight scene. Is it perfect? No, but it was fun.
I'm with you. Seeing a giant battle was awesome.
Arena battle on Geonosis, while it is not lightsaber on lightsaber combat, neither is the throne room fight scene. We have had only a couple of large lightsaber fights such as this, but what I want to see is a huge lightsaber on lightsaber fight, between Jedi and Sith. That would be awesome.
Attack of the Clones doesn't exist?
@@renaissanceredneck3695 and that clone wars scene is just visual vomit imo.
It was my favorite thing about that particular movie. The variety of weapons and styles as well as the fact that it wasn't the tired old one-v-one or "watch how stupid our Troopers are" combat. More of this, please.
That is... true.
RE: the Kendo thing. If memory serves for the OT (mostly Empire & Jedi) Peter Diamond (aka: the first bloke to get his head lopped off in Highlander) opted to go with a hybrid style using Kendo, some fencing and I think a little medieval longsword fighting too. I don't recall if the fact that Mark Hamill already had a basis in Kendo was purely serendipitous (he'd learned growing up as a Navy brat when his old man was stationed in Japan) or part of the reason it was selected. Probably more the former, given that Lucas was deliberately drawing on eastern influences right from the off.
Incidentally, I think for the first movie they more or less stuck to stage fencing since that's what Alec Guinness already had experience in. I think some moves there were Samurai inspired too, but switched from one handed to two to give it a "heavier" look and feel.
It was based pretty heavilly on stuff from Kurosawa movies, and Kurosawa usually had kenjutsu (which is distinct from but related to kendo) guys doing his fight choreography. That's also probably why it looks like longsword fighting, actually longsword fighting was very poorly developed in the 70s and when you see people doing it in even now in movies they tend to use a lot of saber techniques that you don't ever see in longsword fighting, either from surviving mideval manuals or from modern HEMA.
Didn't Bob Anderson do a lot of the sword work for the original trilogy? He was an absolute legend in stage and screen fighting, as well as an Olympic fencer.
@@Amaritudine Yeah, Diamond had worked with Anderson before going back to the 50's IIRC, and brought him on to be Prowse's double for the fight scenes. And yeah, he was a legend even back then!
Another reason is that the original lightsaber props were heavy mechanised props with spinning mirrors.
Funny thing, actually, I read in a making-of-Empire book years back. Apparently, Lucas was so attached to the idea of lightsaber combat being very formal and Kendo-like that he *hated* how Kirschner had staged the Bespin fight with Vader wielding one-handed at the start. But the scene was already shot, so he couldn't do anything about it. Although at some point he did realize that the character choice was more important than retaining the Samurai-like vibe he'd originally envisioned.
.
(Also, the Bespin fight in ESB is my own personal favorite example of character stories being told through combat. :->)
I'm guessing that Adam Driver especially wanted to do the whole fight himself as a former Marine.
That wouldn't be even remotely his call to make.
This would have been a decision made by Rian Johnson, probably as early as while writing the screenplay.
And from what I could tell he did a pretty good job. However, Daisy Riddley apparently couldn't hack it. Also, many of her moves looked rather silly, but that's again between the director and fight choreographer. They should have had a stunt woman instead of her, and used CGI to add her face in.
I've read that Driver viewed it as part of parcel of playing the character, particularly as Kylo's a very physical performance (pointed up by the scenes in TRoS where he's not the one wearing the mask)
@@elimgarak1617 yeah, I *love* her to bits but she's a stiff.
@@elimgarak1617 This. It's frustrating as a woman watching all these action flicks come out with women who clearly weren't auditioned on their action abilities. It's painful. But even if they used a stunt double it would have been really REALLY obvious and that almost would have been as bad. I'd much rather they cast women who have athletic ability rather than just who has the right face.
I think that this is only second positive thing that I've seen on the internet about The Last Jedi. It's refreshing.
I think the issue is that Star Wars has some of the most iconic fights in cinema. The choice to use the actors instead of stunt doubles for most of it isn’t something that particularly stand out against the other fights in the series. Especially considering how much time Hayden Christiansen and Ewan McGregor put into learning the choreography for Revenge of the Sith’s final fight
1v1 and 2v8 or 10 is a pretty staggering difference. Comparing two dudes doing superhuman speed choreography with one weapon type with generally generic cinematography Vs like 12 people going at it with a myriad of unique weapons being filmed with a bunch of intricately planned and timed shots etc is a very different story. The throne room fight should be compared with things facing the same unique issues as it.
Funny you mention the prequel fights because the prequel fights are also controversial for the opposite reason. You may often hear the criticism "over-choreographed" because the emphasis is entirely on pre-planned movesets and character tends to take a backseat. (and yes, this is a criticism I share of the prequel fights).
And even the lightsaber fights in the OT, those are 100% character > choreography.
@@C4DNerd Depends on how much you pay attention. Anakin uses Djem So, an aggressive style of combat, while Obi-Wan uses Soresu, with is defensive. This is, of course, indicative of their characters. However, you can notice several points where Obi-Wan doesn't take advantage of when Anakin is open. These are tiny details. Also, people complain about "unrealistic" combat in the fight, however about 80% of it is incredibly well done, with few technical flaws from a swordplay perspective (taking into account that lightsabers are very different from swords).
@@pseudonymousbeing987 "intricately planned and timed" is hardly how I'd describe this fight. People twirl away from the fight, or just stand in place to make it look like they're doing something when they aren't. A dagger had to be edited out because it *wasn't* intricately planned. If it was, the choreography wouldn't have needed any editing in post. I do agree that they are very different, however they should have spent far more time practicing, which is the difference in quality. If they had practiced this a bit longer, they might've noticed more of the flaws.
Sadly the "myriad of different weapons" are hardly utilised, and aren't even used well. You'd think the Royal Guard would actually be highly skilled own their own, and would have each other's backs in the fight, however they get solo'd easily. If one of them had Rey or Kylo in a grapple, another should've stabbed them while they were preoccupied. This isn't choreographed like a 2v8 fight, it's choreographed as numerous 1v1 fights.
they cast the stuntman to be the villain... I mean it doesn't really compare. But yes, it would be fun to put that much time into an action scene in any movie, again. But I mean... there is a reason why other movies, not counting star wars, haven't done it again in that way.
Hmm, interesting take on the fight scene.. hadn't thought about it like that, emotional connection vs technical accuracy... tbh, when I saw it at the cinema, I thought the scene looked cool, but by then I'd lost a lot of interest in the movie itself not notice anything... should probably watch it again, lol..
@@bauloprete3905 No elaboration. Nope, it's just wrong, gotcha.
@@matthegarty6235 A LOT of people felt that way, too many to just dismiss it. Personally, this is my second favorite Star Wars film. I had the opposite experience to Haze here. I was so engrossed in the story, so moved by the sudden reversal and the deeper implications of what was going on, I found the fight utterly thrilling. I could dimly see it was as clumsy as, well, any elaborate single-take choreography with non-pros doing martial art. It didn't matter. It worked for me because the moment worked for me.
As an artist myself, I don't count seeing the brush strokes as a flaw. They're part of the art. If I like the image, seeing how it's being rendered is fun. If I don't like the image, flawlessness doesn't help. This is why good old films with clunky special effects are no less great than new films with modern effects, while bad modern films are still bad no matter how great the effects are. Hell, the Original Star Wars has the weakest light-saber fight in the series by far. It's still my favorite, because I'm on board with the story. I cared.
It’s funny I really enjoyed the film watching it and as soon as my friends and I were having dinner we collectively realised how messy it is. The power of being in a cinema with excited fans. The throne room fight was received with cheering and applause.
I always really liked this film. I thought that it did a lot of very interesting things and while some elements fell down there was a lot here that made it a great Star Wars film. Wish I could say the same thing about the 3rd installation - though even here my biggest complaint was they desperately tried to cram far to much into one movie and I could not connect at all due to the whiplash. I would probably been OK if it had been split into two movies and had better pacing and more chance to build out (flesh out?) the plot line.
"Murderous pouty space numpty" is now a part of my vocabulary and I am so happy for it XD
Just recently discovered your channel, Jill, and it's definitely a new favorite. Loved this take on the fight. And also, the fact that you could make a video saying a POSITIVE thing about The Last Jedi and have almost all upvotes for the video? That's bordering on a miracle. Much, much respect.
I deeply enjoyed this fight too. Is the choreography and performance a little scrappy and unrefined? Sure. But for me, the scappiness comes across as the desperation and chaos of a sheer fight for survival. A life-or-death struggle is very rarely a slick and polished ballet of grace and poise, after all. As for the characters, Kylo's fighting is marked by his aggression and arrogance, while Rey's is at times cautious and defensive, while still tinged with growing anger. Plenty of non-verbal storytelling there.
On top of that, there's a geeky delight in seeing some light 'sabres' that are based on weapons other than swords. The sheer variety of cutlery adds a lot of creativity to the action. Also, this fight acknowledges some key advantages of a light sabre over a real-world sword: chiefly, a blade that's 'sharp' on every side, and can be turned on or off at will.
Overall, the only aspect that let me down was when The Rise of Skywalker selectively ignored the groundwork laid by The Last Jedi, including Rey and Kylo's evolving personalities and relationship.
Ok, you get a heart just for the use of the phrase 'the sheer variety of cutlery', which I am now stealing.
dropping your weapon mid combat is unnacceptable, also deliberately stopping instead of hitting someone is bs. hollywood stars need to learn that fight choreography is important and the best way for that is for the stuntmen to hit them if they don't dodge.
@@revanruler6404 litterally every star wars fight has something like that
The Choreography isn't my cup of tea, but this is my favourite shot fight in all of cinema. Long, clean shots with the action being clear for us to see. Not a single shaky cam in sight
I guess I've been spoiled by East Asian Cinema, because I'm used to clean shots and great fight choreography.
Yo, if that is your standard for good fights, then I feel so sorry.
It seems like this guy’s only exposure to fight scenes is in Bourne films and those inspired by it.
Wait- you got into stage combat RECENTLY?
Now this is an increasingly fascinating channel.
Yes! Regardless of how I felt about this movie the first time I saw it I *loved* this scene! Kudos to Daisy and Adam because clearly training that long wasn’t easy and although they aren’t professionals they still did a pretty amazing job everyone is just used to seeing Marvel/Super hero *professionally trained stunt doubles*
Stunt doubles are not a sin. They have a purpose in cinema. If you forget who your main characters are, or suddenly lose investment, because you can't see their face... I don't even know how to respond to my hypothetical.
@@kylefrank638 no where in my comment did I mention using stunt doubles was a bad thing I said kudos to the actors for training for that scene since they managed to keep up with the professionals they were also in the scene with. There isn't anything wrong with stunt doubles they have a job to do but some actors prefer to do their own stunts and I think they deserve more credit for that.
@@electraheart7745 I was kind of projecting the video's own words onto yours, because I really really do not agree with what she said about actors' faces being shown on camera for an entire intricately choreographed fight. She says "people who dislike the throne room fight probably don't like that greater expertise has been replaced with being 100% certain that the people on screen are our actors, who are not going to be as good as specifically stunt performers, most of the time". What I was saying is that I definitely do not lose investment in a good conflict just because I'm not seeing my favorite character's face often enough. I agree with you that actors who want to do their own stunts are admirable, but in this case, however much work Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver put into their training was undercut by how the choreography looks like, as the video says, "stage" fighting. As in, the movements and blows look like they were mapped out to not have much weight to them, just be flowy and appealing.
Movies can afford to go one step further than stage productions though. They can refine a fight to look more convincing than a live performance, that has to account more for timing and the players' safety, right there in front of an audience. At the end of the day, I don't think actors who do their own stunts deserve credit simply for accepting that optional part of the job; they do deserve credit if they master it. For me, it more comes down to the choreographers being at fault here. The fact that they got stunt performers (as the guards) who still botch the timing and do unnecessary twirls and shiz in order to not kill the heroes and be killed themselves... the fact that they have Ridley holding her arms in at her sides with some swings, looking really unprofessional, but she's still supposed to be the most OP Force-user ever... it's like insult to injury.
@@kylefrank638 hmmm, you make a fair point. i can see both sides of the "face in fight scene" argument. i've seen plenty of fight scenes where the faces aren't always visible and i'm still engaged. i've seen this fight scene which was an amazing cinematic experience the first time i watched though i also have my caveats quite similar to your's - and i see what Jill means by following the characters, the actors, and etc. i think it ultimately boils down to a creative choice (and, hopefully, the actors' consent) on the part of the makers, and a personal choice on the part of the consumer. and regarding TLJ's throne room scene where you mentioned how Ridley was swinging her arms about at her sides despite her character being an OP force user, it also boils down to...some messiness in the writing and the problem of having different creators with different visions in charge of each movie. perhaps it could've been different if the directors were the same (be it Rian or JJ or whoever!), etc.
i also don't understand the way people yuck on Marvel's style of fight scenes - because they aren't even bad? and different Marvel movies have their own styles too!
@@Bluey306 I don't see what you mean when you say "writing and different creators" are responsible for something like Rey looking unrefined with a lightsaber, yet she kicks ass with it. All it tells me is, Daisy Ridley probably *could've* used a stuntwoman for some of this sequence, or just more training and a few more takes.
There's a time and a place for the main actors and stuntpersons (?) to be used in a cinematic project. What I take issue with in this video is the lady essentially insinuating that it's okay for it to look both choreographed and sloppy, because (A that's what a stage production looks like, and B) it's difficult for even stunt workers to pull off.
Those are poor excuses. It's a movie, not a play; there is far more room to streamline things because it's not performed live. And to lower the bar for stunt workers everywhere by saying an uncoordinated end result is fine because it happens to be masked by flashy colors and camera movements is downright insulting. The video creator does this kind of work herself. I would think she'd more disappointed than most with the end result of this throwdown in TLJ.
Loving your breakdowns. I'd love to hear your take on the Kylo vs Luke from TLJ. It's a short fight with no actual connecting attacks but that also means its completely character driven. There's actually a hell of a lot of character moments in there and I think the rare time we see a fully unleashed Kylo as his attacks are almost all rage filled killing blows. It's emotionally explosive and you can even see Luke tearing up as he sees how violently his nephew wants to kill him. It's a small moment but I noticed it. TLJ is seriously one of my favorite films in general and I have a lot of respect for Rian Johnson as a meticulous writer who writes for his characters and doesn't compromise what they need in the story to develop their characters.
Yeah, it kind of upset me that the really vocal minority hated it so much they completely backtracked. I would have loved to have had Kylo in the 3rd film, every time he wanted to do something bad, Force Luke would be there with him , just chiding him, just like he promised in TLJ. It would have been great to see how they would have handled the many possibilities TLJ set up, instead of just bringing Palpatine back.
@@EfftupSmith Yeah. TRoS was so bad that I don't even consider it Canon. The sequel trilogy ends with TLJ
@@Lockn3s5 I still enjoy watching it, as long as I don't stop to think at any point, cos then nothing makes sense. there's lots of cool shots and stuff but it is all pretty silly if you think about it for one second.
@@EfftupSmith It's the laziest thing to ever come out of Star Wars. It watches like a checklist of things to pander to fans with. It doesn't even have an identity of its own. One of the worst things ever put to film
@@EfftupSmith Modern Star Wars generally suffers A LOT from a vocal minority hating on anything and everything. These people should just be ignored entirely for the sanity and enjoyment of everyone else.
Awesome analysis! I learned so much listening to you. And I agree, the throne room duel in TLJ is one of my favorite duels in all of Star Wars, because of the emotional connection and the narrative force of the fight.
I saw the guy "twirling to nowhere" at the start of the fight, then I saw him gracefully spin anyway for no reason, on my first viewing, and it broke my immersion. This left me analysing the fight for the remainder of my first viewing. :\
Edit:. I do still like your video tho, and I do still like the fight on subsequent viewings since I know to crank up my suspension of disbelief as the slow-mo kicks in for a sec haha.
This is a good point, and something to consider when using less perfect takes. People will likely not notice, but the spinning guy is kind of like Luke's terrible "force kick" in Jedi. You notice it and at least the remaining fight has you disconnected for a bit. You "saw behind the curtain", so to speak
That's exactly what happened to me
@GiRayne is it possible that the internet just had you more aware of people noticing these things?
@GiRayne This occurred to me rewatching LotR. During the Weathertop scene I went "hmm, not perfect there" and then went "eh, not fussed" so I carried on enjoying myself.
@GiRayne This. Even the fixation on plot holes as a mainstream phenomenon is only about a decade old, and it's coming at the expense of engagement with theme and story. TLJ generally acted as a lightning rod for this kind of thing (as well as people who hated it looking for anything to tar it with - there's a real sense that they couldn't allow themselves to acknowledge anything good in it except for the cinematography).
Bless you, Jill! As someone who loves The Last Jedi AND that fight in the Throne Room, I am applauding you making this video! Thank you, thank you, thank yoU!
This was very insightful. I'm very impressed that you took the time to get training in these various fighting styles, Ursa.
You know, it's strange how different people value different things. I was not especially impressed or upset by the fight scene. But you know what did impress me? The method Kylo Ren used to kill Snoke. He was up against an unstoppable enemy, infinitely stronger with the force and capable of reading Kylo's mind like a newspaper. And he killed him using a simple double entendre. Words drive me wild. That was my favorite part of the movie.
I never realized the extent of the trust between Rey and Ben in this scene until I watched this video and it makes me love this fight even more now!
More stage combat content? Yes please.
Every time someone points out a technical flub in a Star Wars fight I just say "Force Kick".
Your video's more interesting though.
I love that you referenced Zahn’s Star Wars books! My favorite books and I was so mad with they got relegated to Legends! And that fight scene you mentioned with her and Luke (as well as Mara herself) is awesome!
its interesting hearing you talk about this and it makes me want to hear your thoughts on the John Wick movies since the K man himself was trained to DO all the weapon handling and choreography and not have stunt doubles.
Well this is quiet pleasant to wake up to.
I’m really glad that this video points out that perfect choreography isn’t the most important thing.
The Prequels alone are FULL of weird and nonsensical choreography that’s made just to be fun, but for some reason people just don’t give that same leeway to the Sequels.
I honestly genuinely love this fight scene. It’s just so emotionally engaging and visual. It’s like watching a ballet or something. I don’t care if it’s not as technically as complex as it could be, it’s just so beautiful to watch and a very engaging a way to tell a story. It made me feel so excited!
yesss, this person gets it. above all else, this is is a beautiful fight.
That's actually explains everything. I first liked this scene, then hated it, and now I can accept it's existence as it is. Pretty much like the movie in its entirety, scene was more ambitious than it could probably handle.
I still hate this movie, but the cinematography was good.
the thing is people are a lot more charitable when they like the rest of the movie. just look at the award fight from A New Hope.
You can have the best fight scene ever but if people don't like the rest of the movie you are going to have problems.
@@ericpeterson8732 That goes for all 3 movies, the cinematography is top-notch
Heh, I'd love to see a discussion between you and Shadiversity, Marmite indeed...
I can just imagine that... Shad would keep it civil, but both of you would disagree
Shadiversity critzise the sword fight from a realistic POV, while Jill from a Fight choreographer POV
Which are two totally different judgements.
I've seen many times Shadiversity stating that he respect a film fight for being a film fight, and that it is never ment to be realistic. His main Judgement is based on how "realistic" it is looking, not how character driven it is.
Jill on the other hand has clearly loads of experience in stage/film fighting, where she clearly explains that the goal is never to look realistic, but to tell a character driven story.
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In the end people don't seem to understand that NO movies (or tv series) are aiming for realizm, what they are aming for is storytelling, and all the stunts, fighting, dancing, singing, clothings, Lighting, set dressing etc etc are solely and only about telling a story.
Yes there are many ways to tell a story, some grounded more in realizm while others are not, but in the end they are peaces of entertainment and they are showy and flashy, that's the point: Tell a story and looking good while doing it.
However if it isn't looking good it has to do ONE most important thing: Make the audience connect with the characters, and that is often using the actors in front of the stunt performers so the audience can see their faces.
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So shortly: Shadiversity would most likely just have fun and nerd around with Jill, and maybe they could teach each other different types of fighting, because real sword fighting and stage sword fighting are two totally different skills, and is even harder to learn when your muscle memory is adapted to one or the other.
The most important part is that both should be respected for themselves, one for survival, the other for entertainment
I understand your perspective, but if we look at some other fights in media, there are more realistic fights that hold more significance than the example in this video. I understand the media wants the fight to look cool, and gripping your audience's attention is part of that. Stage combat can be both practical, and interesting watch.
When three weapons landed on Rey's saber, it would have added more realism if she dropped it, and then had to avoid three attackers in order to retrieve it. Would it have been difficult? Yes, but it would have also shown that Rey was still learning since there was little to no time between movies.
Ben had the upper hand, and still struggled, which made his side so much better.
A balance can be achieved, and still make a fight interesting. It's just a matter of what the actor preforms in the end, and what the audience sees is what determines how a fight stand's out.
@@MarkFilipAnthony >not how character driven it is
Not very. They are fighting nobodies who, by all logic, should kneel to their new boss, but fighting for absolutely no reason.
They also don't use force powers for some reason.
edit
>the goal is never to look realistic
Never? Are you absolutely sure? For example, I liked a lot of fights in John Wick for how realistic it looked. I don't know if it's actually realistic(it most likely isn't), but it looks the part.
@@Vladislav888 the goal is for it to feel right, not to be right
The fights in most movies are character driven, not just fighting for the sake of fighting
Star wars is a space opera, the fighting is an extention of the characters, not just to protect themselves.
I just find this bit hard to believe:
Guard 1: "Oh no, our boss has been killed by his successor... is Kylo our boss now?
Guard 2: "Nah, let's just kill him and his girlfriend."
Guard 1: "But then who will be our boss if Kylo's dead,... Hux?"
Guard 2: "No, there is another... but he shows up in the next movie so we won't say anything until then just to confuse the audience."
Guard 1: "Oh... okay, I guess."
I actually noticed the guards standing in the background waiting their turn the first time I watched the movie. However, I really loved the fight once they killed one or two of them. At that point there was no more waiting in the background and the fight became much better.
Honestly, the initial few holding back didn't bother me that much. Force users are terrifying and at some point too many people makes you either a bunched up target for multiple kills or causes you to have to risk hitting your coworkers. Plus you can maybe get a feel for their fighting style a bit before jumping in. Though to be fair, I would have just been like "don't notice me" and then leave or immediately surrender. No lies. Non force user v Force user requires much greater numbers to win then they had in the throne room.
Well done! Can't argue with the points you make. 👍 But, I still don't like it.😏 That said, *your video is fantastic.* Not just your technical knowledge, but how you present it to the viewer. With light humor, and without an attitude of superiority, which I feel many on both sides of *TLJ* argument can have. You are clearly knowledgeable, and there seems to be and air of respect,¹ as well as empathy, for the viewer.
Thanks for the time and effort to share this information and viewpoint.
Be well. 😷
•••●●●•••
*¹* ─ This seeming respect may not be due everyone, but it is at least appreciated by me.
Thank you! I mean, I'd never argue it's a fight to emulate in terms of technical correctness, but there are a lot of things I appreciate about it in context.
I loved this seen for all the things you mentioned. Their connection and trust in one another makes the betrayal right after all the more impactful. This is my all time favorite Star Wars movie and I can never get enough of it. I saw it 5-8 times in theaters including 3 or 4 within the first week.
Saw TLJ 7 times in theaters. I never get tired of this scene.
Congratulations, you exemplify the worst of Western culture.
@@IHateThisHandleSystem lol ridiculous
Cheers on being a consoomer and having objectively bad tastes at media. Did you you also cried when you saw the ending of TRoS?
@gabriel Gutierrez no, most TLJ lovers HATED TROS because it undone the decentness of TLJ . TROS SUCKED! I hate it more than Anakin hates sand.
Out of the 3, I definitely enjoyed TLJ the most. It was the only one that gave me the same feeling I had watching the originals as a child. It had its problems for sure, but I liked it a lot! It's the only one of the sequels I rewatched.
This might be one of the last movies where the “if you see faces, it’s the real actor” paradigm can be applied. With the advent of “deep fakes” and face-swapped video, we could see this in even small indie films. Potentially student films.
@jocaguz18 Fun, existentially terrorizing, to-MAY-toe, to-MAH-toe
The only issue is the acting would be the stunt doubles expressions under the actor's copied on face. Which I suppose if you had the stunt doubles work on mirroring the actors' faces for a while would work.
Presumably in a few generations we could get a computer to animate believable copies of the acting someone would do over a person's face who is doing something completely different...
@@LC-sc3en I think your second statement is where I was going with this. Eventually, what we're going to have is a stunt double whose face will be entirely "painted out" by generative fill (or something else) and then the filmmaker will be able to "paint over" that stunt double's lack-of-a-face with new emotion/acting from the top-billed actor. That's kind of where I was getting the "existentially horrifying" part of my second comment.
Granted, this does give me an interesting idea for a short story...
I remember watching bootleg footage of this scene just to track which guards had which weapons and who they were fighting at different points and stuff, the sense of where everyone is in the room is so good. I love this analysis and it reassures me that I'm on the right track in my own attempts at critiquing how fight choreography is used in SW. The Legends reference was also very welcome! I hadn't thought about that but you're right it's totally a similar moment
0:51 Have to learn how to do that.
*Rey kicks the guard in the middle and somehow sends all three flying.*
Yeah me too,
I know it’s a joke, but you’re emphasizing the very thing this video is arguing to be fine.
I just recently discovered this channel, and as a martial artist/ theatre nerd myself, I am loving it. Thank you for putting it out there that this stuff has dual priorities: display for story purposes and the logic of fighting, with the display being the indispensable part. And thank you for pointing out that tiredness matters! I'm spacing out my viewing, but I look forward to the video on the Princess Bride fight.
That said, may I offer a few suggestions that you might want to check out?
1. Any fight scene from the old Wild Wild West show. Not the Will Smith film.
2. The Adventures of Robin Hood. Basil Rathbone, Errol Flynn, and one extremely busy stuntman whose name I forget.
3. The Chinese Connection. Either the alley fight or Bruce Lee vs. Chuck Norris. The tall guy is hilarious.
Again, love your work.
Honestly, the most (like 99%) of arguments against this particular fight I've heard is about the technical part. I understand that we're talking about humans and time recording and not cgi, but it's Disney and Star Wars we're talking about, couldn't they come up with a coreography feasible for the actors, the time and money they were working with?
I'm not getting into the "emotional" part because that's a completly different debate.
I mean have you seen Episode II Anakin vs Dooku? Where you can't see half the fight and it is just flashing red or blue in front of the actors faces... and where Anakin does a spread eagle with his arms while Dooku does a slow spin so that he can have his arms cut off. Or even Episode III Anakin vs Dooku? The ending in that fight was equally "well this is where the fight is supposed to end so let's just have one character stand and do nothing while the other wins". That's the entire point made here, a group fight is never easy, no matter how simple the choreography there are a lot of moving parts because if a part is ever not moving people will notice. This is a choice for more emotional connection over exact technical and that is a choice and it is a choice we have seen made even in 1v1 fights in star wars.
In other words "couldnt they have just....." No, No they couldnt.
@@schmelzwah I'm not an expert on sword fighting (or theatrical for this matter), so probably I won't be able to name other moves they should have done, and yes, I can be forgiving in somethings, as I understand it's meant to be not only practical, but with a message and, as said in the video, an emphasis on the emotions (depending on the director, I suppose), that's why I can understand her supporting herself momentarly on his back (even though it looks kind of unrealistic, don't know if it's the move in itself or the actors) to show they're in synch, I can understand the movie taking a moment to show someone's reaction instead of showing that character inmediatly jumping back into the action, I can understand that not every single hit of a fast peaced fight looks credibly hard... but we're talking about a single fight performed by young people or trained people, with all the money that Disney has and a franchise that's been relevant for 40 years, you're telling me that they spend more time, or fix later on, things like vanishing knives, multiple actors missing the target at a time (right in the first line)(multiple times), being "pushed away" because the enemy hit the floor in front of them or just one of them got kicked, blades that go through lightsabers... I could understand in a scene of a battle, where multiple individual fights are happening at once, but the one's the main character is in, I expect them to be better.
As for the ones you mentioned, the only one I can agree with is when Anakin gets his hand cut off, yes, Dooku could have been faster, but it doesn't look as bad as a top guard twirling toward Rey just to go over her head or being "pushed" and looking like a ballerina. It'd be cool if the fight scenes would be more dance-like, had other style, but not as they're design. I can understand the move between Rey and Kylo, as I said, as I can understand Dooku and Anakin using the lightsaber to try and see better (as I understand in both cases the story driven motives), but saying you can't see half of the fight... it's kind of concerning, Game of Thrones 2nd to last big battle being way to dask? yes, this one, no. As for the 2nd Dooku vs. Anakin, there's not a moment where he's waiting to get killed, I don't know where you got that one.
Shadiversity has a quite long analysis of some fights in Star Wars, including this one's, he really goes in depth if it interest you.
One of the professional guards of the most powerful bad guy in the galaxy keeps spining around for no reason. Imperfection is when Anakin Skywalker blocks Dooku's lightsaber low Dooku fails to lop Akakin's head of. A goon spining around while the hero gets ready to be attacked is just lazyness.
Tunewalker No one ever tries to defend Anakin vs Dooku episode 2. Technically the canonical explanation in the novels is that it’s possible to put up force barriers to immobilize opponents. Which Maul does to Obi-Wan during the big zoom shot between the three fighters, Dooku does to Anakin when he lops off his arm. And Anakin does it to Dooku in their final fight. Back to the actual movie though, the actual Dooku fight in ROTS is really nice. Anakin and Obi-Wan have some nice teamwork as Dooku shows impressive defense against them. As for “standing there and letting something happen? Where? Dooku is locked in a saber bind and Anakin grabs Dooku’s hands as he moves. At no point does anyone just stand around during that fight.
@
monicabellu Agreed. Visual literacy seems to be increasingly absent from people critiquing visual media nowadays. If you're analyzing a fight scene, without telling me about how the camera makes the characters' choices and the dramatic tension explicit, and are only concerned about continuity errors, it becomes hard for me to take you seriously.
Marmite’s tag line: “You either love it or you hate it.”
The Last Jedi’s Tagline: “You either love it or you hate.”
"Force bonds are kind of my jam"
In that case, you'd probably like Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2 (the Sith Lords), just saying.
It is difficult to lure her there, but it has to be done.
Y'know, as someone who walked out of the theater after watching The Last Jedi and immediately bought the saltiest food I could find to embody just how salty I was, and whose internet circles generally didn't like it either, I really appreciate this different perspective, both the technical behind-the-scenes style of analysis of the choreography and the more character-focused interpretation of the scene. Because you're right, The Last Jedi was indeed a bold movie and there are a number of things about it that really do have to be respected (and in fact did acknowledge and respect as I ate my salt)... even if the package as a whole did ultimately fail to hold up under its own weight for the duration of its runtime for me and as such I have to call it a bad movie for failing to meet the bare minimum for competence (immediately falling apart under fridge logic isn't good, but at least in that case the film has succeeded at creating a complete and enjoyable experience (and every story falls apart under fridge logic eventually anyway); if it falls apart before the credits roll though though, then it's inexcusable). This is just another area of the film where even though I didn't really care about the choreography in the moment (I was frankly still distracted by the broader context of the scene and how Snoke very explicitly should have seen that attack coming, and also a stab would not cut him in half), I now know enough about it to respect it despite its many many flaws, and have new knowledge about film production in general that I can carry forward.
Great analysis!! 👍🏾💕👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 Would love to hear your insights on the sword fighting between Wesley and Inigo Montoya on top of the Cliffs of Insanity! 😍
Hi Jill!
I just recently discovered Your channel (really wish I'd get a recommendation a decade sooner!)
I wanted to tell You that I started this video with an opinion, and 17 minutes later I switched camps.
The details You point to, and the explanations provided, were ones I never considered. Good job! Great video.
Jill, come to NYC! (once we don't have plague). We have Rogue Alliance lightsaber stage combat rehearsal every Thursday night in midtown. :)
Once we don't have the plague, (I realise this may be some time) I am THERE. XD
Ha, this statement. 11 months ago, a different time
@@Ts7n Oy, yup. We closed classes two weeks later. Hopefully back up in July-ish for outdoor masked classes if all goes well.
I only once did a sword-fight for a movie once in my life. And it was fun shooting it.
Unfortunately my fight-partner couldn't count.
It's kinda dangerous when you should only hit 3 times and your partner counts to 4 and aims a real sword towards your face XD
I have a huge respect of people who can actually do that.
It didn't help we both had no idea what we were doing. Just stupid tweens swinging 12lbs heavy metal swords around with no prior training.
It's a miracle nobody got injured XD
@@ShinjiSings
12 lbs, holy crap, what were you using for swords?
@@ShinjiSings Were you guys swinging bulked-up ceremonial Zweihanders or something?
@@benbailey3106 He was swinging a Katana. I was swinging a sword that is called "sword of light". A 1,5-Hander. And yes, more ceremonial than anything XD
@@ShinjiSings Sounds very Dark Souls like
It's so awesome to finally see an educated person understandig the purpose of this scene! It feels like every youtube analysis completely misses the point of this fight, focusing only on the technical aspect like that's its primary purpose instead of appreciating how emotionally charged it is. Thank you!
Sure, it's impressive from this perspective. It was emotionally charged even. It just got nullified by the ending and even further by the next movie. So it's borderline impossible to look at that fight in good light. Them there's another type of educated person, it's person who knows the lore, and amongst almost anything else on that movie, it went intentionally directly against the established ideas. Nothing wrong with that at face value for sure, but there needs to be a reason why rules are broken.
I pretty much didn't care about the fight because I didn't care about the characters and because the outcome was never in question. I was fascinated and very hopeful when Kylo asked Rey to come with him - if she accepted then that would have been awesome and fascinating. But the fight itself was visually and emotionally invalidated from the very beginning, even by the setting and appearance of the throne room.
John Wick was a crazy exception to the rule that stunt people will always do it better... Reeves *became* Wick to do the moves necessary to make the shots real (pun intended)
And Mark Hamill became Luke Skywalker forever. Ewan McGreggor can still do on the spot the lightsaber stunts he was taught to make those movies 20 years ago because he was trained to do them, not to fake doing it.
I wondered why the guards attacked. I mean, Snook was dead, they were clearly all clearly no longer employed to perform the job of protecting Snook.
There is a difference between realistic vs realism. No one wants realistic as realistic fights usually don't last long and the deciding blow is very quick. However, most people want realism or also known as believability. Realism draws and immerses us in a fight as we believe that it's a fight that's actually happening. A half ass fight looks noticeably worse. Like when a character kicks one person but all three enemies fall back, that's half ass. Also I feel you're kinda ignoring one important point. These are all paid actors and professionals...this is their job, so proper choreography is not much to ask for.
Yeah, even with the "but 25 takes" thing, I don't know how it can just be written off. As far as I know, Ewan McGregor didn't have sword experience before Episode I, but I don't think anyone could say he cut corners on his fights. Has the bar been lowered?
Kyle Frank too be fair, Ewan only had one or two other people to work with. Daisy Ridley has tons of guards plus Kylo to keep up with.
It's kind of funny when it comes to this scene...
When the movie came out and I watched it with my friends, EVERYBODY afterwards agreed that this was one of the highlights. Even those who didn't exactly like the movie itself. And online, it felt like generally, people also really enjoyed it... again, regardless if they like the rest of the movie.
And then the backlash started, it became cool to hate on the movie, and all of a sudden, this scene turned from "really amazing!" to "ahhh.... kinda flawed" to "terrible! What were they thinking?!"
I don't think it's a scene that you either love or hate (or at least that's not true for the majority of the audience).
It's rather a scene that, when you hate the movie and want to pick it apart on every level to show how bad it is, it gives you PLENTY to nit-pick until it appears to be a terribly made scene.
Not saying everybody who hates this scene is just looking for flaws because they hate the movie. And I get that some people hated this scene right from the get go... but I do think this aspect makes up a big part of the backlash against this scene.
I almost feel that the church fight in Kingsman is so unbelievable well made and edited - a single longtake with over a hundred performers yet entirely focused on a single character - that it ruins most other movie fights that don't have the same level of technical brilliance and spectacle. And that's when you get marmite scenes: scenes which emphasize one aspect over another, like the one in Last Jedi. But to be fair: I do appreciate the scene and the choices they made. I prefer in moviefights focus on characters, and not just spectacle or choreography, because that would make fights boring to watch.
Disclaimer: I like your videos a lot, your explanation of the character points in the Will vs Jack sparrow fight scene being the first video i watched of yours, and yet i have to disagree with your assessment of this scene, This scene comes in a series with a lot of history of lightsaber fight scenes,and although some have goofy moments(The spinny sword technique of Episode 3) they almost always have a lot of character moments packed inside of actually convincing action, My main problem with this fight scene is that it felt rushed into existence(From memory i think they even said they did only a few takes of this scene, but don't quote me on that) The kick that hits 3 people at once, the disappearing knife, the part where rey's head would have been chopped of by a guards blade, The guard who just spins around for no reason, the one guard who purposefully misses cause Daisy Ridley was in the wrong place. These are things that show they didnt take enough time to get the scene right. But if you then look at the behind the scenes of the Anakin vs Obi Wan fight in Episode 3 or the duel of the fates in Episode 1. They are doing full speed, full contact sparring getting every move perfect for the final product. That's the level of passion a lot of fans expected from this movie and the fight scene just showed how little the team behind it cared about the final product or the universe its in.
Coming less from the background of Stage Combat and more Medieval Full contact sparring im more inclined towards the fight scenes that ican look at and understand by putting myself in thier shoes. watching the Luke vs Vader scene in episode 5 and remembering fighting a much more skilled opponent when i was still learning to fight. The fierce desperation in the Ani vs Obi fight in EP3 which makes me think of fighting a long battle with an equally skilled opponent where its more a test of who gets tired and makes a mistakes first rather than who can gain the upper hand. but when i look at a Fight scene like that throne room scene the only thing i can be reminded of is play fighting on the playground as a child, and that really just robs any sense of weight the scene was trying to build in me
They actually did 19 takes for the scene, which is honestly kind of pathetic considering the plethora of mistakes. I think that the choreography that the stunt coordinator drew up for the fight was the rushed part, not the practice and effort from the stuntmen. Either way, the fight is pretty bad.
I totally agree with you, good sir.
If we want to compare it to other saber duels in star wars, remember that Episode II anakin vs Dooku exists. Where it has almost nothing but flashing lights in the actors faces and then is capped off with a character spreading his arms open for no reason waiting for them to be cut off while the other does a super slow spin. Honestly the Anakin vs Dooku fight in III isn't much better to me as it ends in a similarly hilarious way of one person just standing there while the other does a series of somewhat complex moves to just "win", those are actually the prequel fights in a nutshell, a bunch of spinny dancy moves that just go until "well this is where the fight is supposed to end so now we contrive a way for this person to lose" without any feeling of progression to that point Episode 1 is the strongest fight scene of the prequels in the case that it feels like people testing each others defenses and one finally getting through, but it is ALSO the one of the least emotinal ones because the villain is just cool looking and played by a stuntman, 2 is the worst where even the fight itself almost doesnt exist, even Obi vs Anakin, even though it is well handled here, it is just a super long fight where "ok it needs to end, Obi has the high ground now and Anakin is going to do something dumb and reckless so we can end the fight", despite him having the high ground or anakin having that ground multiple times throughout the fight and the characters behaving in a way to keep the fight going. You come from Medieval Full contact sparing as you said... how many of those had group fights? Maybe the reason you identified with the previous fights is because you identified with the story of a 1 on 1 fight better than a 1 on many fight. From a sparing perspective or a fight perspective 1 vs many should typically not even be possible so the moment they made it a group fight you were going to feel "play fighting".
Go look at a bunch of martial arts movies with group fights, there is ALWAYS a character in the background that could be attacking that isn't, it is a running joke, and that is the point of the video. There was a clip in this video where they SHOT (Not practiced) 1 scene over 25 times.
@@2ndairborneguy790 I don't blame the actors for their mistakes, because you really can't expect people who have limited martial arts backgrounds to perfectly execute complex choreography.
I can blame the choreographer for going beyond the ability of the actors to perform.
@@schmelzwah Well said
For someone disparaging their own eyesight, you catch a lot of details. I haven't even begun to understand this main fight, nor even noticed the "mistakes" - I just knew I liked it. You put it to words so very well.
Stage Combat = Cooperative martial art or violent dance :D HA! Love it!
Amazing description of the scene! I love your analysis.
One thing I love about this fight *was* that the red curtain lining the walls of the room burn down throughout the fight. It highlights the fall of Snoke. If that was practical then it would have been a bitch to reset, though; I'm pretty sure it was mostly CG.
Now that you've brought my attention to it: My new favorite part of that fight scene is how it establishes the bond between Ray and Ben. We spend the movie with their force connection moments and they feel like they're based on or at least building an emotional connection between the two, then Snoke says it was his own doing which makes the audience think, "was it all a mind trick? It felt like a genuine connection." Then they hammer home the fact that Snoke messed up and the connection between Ray and Ben is real. Either fostered by Snoke or at least undetected.
As someone who just never managed to find myself hooked by the relationship (platonic, romantic, or otherwise) between Rey and Ben, I can't explain how delightful it is to watch someone talk so passionately about character moments like these! I got to feel secondhand butterflies when you talked about that back-bracing moment near the end :)
Wait wait wait... THIS was the scene that convinced you to take up stage combat?
That might be the best part of this scene all by itself.
I absolutely love this fight sequence. Better than most of the fight scenes in the prequels if you ask me.
ok how is this explaination the first thing selling me on reylo
Don't stop making videos. I love what you have going here. You break things down without talking down to people or being overly critical. You have perfect balance in your videos. 😀😀
This is my second-favorite fight of the Star Wars franchise and I had no clue it was controversial! (Aside from the whole movie being so 😅) thanks for the really interesting breakdown!
Former VFX artist here. If a shot is really quick, it could definitely be a stunt performer even when you can see the actor's face. I've worked on a couple of movies where the best take showed the stunt performer's face so we just had to put the main actor's face on top of the stunt performer. It's hard to spot if we did the work right, but it's there. In this movie, Rey would be much harder to swap than Ben due to the costuming. She has some fairly skintight wrappings and more exposed skin. Ben has flowing hair and is covered from neck to toe.
I'm sorry for leaving a small novel here, but your video helped me realize some things about the scene, I couldn't grasp until now.
Your take that this scene pretty much polarizes, just as the movie as a whole, makes all the sense to me, because I might be one of the few people who's kinda lukewarm (no pun intended) about both, the scene and the movie 😅 the scene has some very cool elements, which you already highlighted (like them turning their backs, her throwing him the saber, the spinning shot followed by a zoom on her, etc), but the flaws/mistakes in the choreography are too off-putting to me personally to fully enjoy it. Even when I watched it for the first time in cinema something about it was off to me. On a repeated watch it was most of the things you mentioned. The actors missing a beat or being too early, stunt guys standing in the frame without proper direction or exercising choreographed moves that didn't make sense, etc. I'm on the one hand totally with you, that it's more important to choose the footage that's conveying the story the best, but on the other hand I don't like handing in a flawed product and two of the aspects you already mentioned were flawed but fixable imo:
1. The framing
They decided to film a group fight with wide shots and long takes, which is very very bold. And if you're making the choice to do something that ambitious, I think mistakes are way more obvious. And with slightly different framing and editing some mistakes could have easily been prevented, without changing the overall concept of the fight. 300 had a very similar scene of two fighters against a group of enemies whilest fighting back to back, which was also a long take, but they constantly rotated the camera around the two protagonists, so the background wasn't as much of an issue as it's here. Whatever wasn't of interest simply left the frame due to the spinning. You're correct that they properly frame the important parts in the middle here, but the background is still there and, at least to me, often very distracting. So, yay long take, but nay wideshot.
2. Keeping the actors
Of course actors aren't trained stunt people, so you're completely correct that they have to be forgiven if they don't deliver as well. But I think these two could have performed better under different circumstances. The star wars prequels, especially ep 3, followed the same approach of keeping the use of stunt doubles to a minimum and the actors, especially McGregor and Christensen worked their asses off, leading to their fights being nearly flawless. It's a very different style of fighting to be fair, but also very complicated and physically challenging as hell and they pulled it off with proper training and enough time given. You're absolutely right that too many takes after another are not an option, because the actors tire out, but that's easily fixed by shooting one scene on multiple days, like they do in Hongkong for example. Of course that's really expensive, but, as you said, it's Disney. They got the money.
And that's finally why I simultaneously like and dislike the scene. It's very ambitious, with lots of great elements and, just like the movie overall, it tries to push the franchise to new levels. But it's also very flawed, partly because their ambition was maybe a bit higher than the skill involved, but mostly because they didn't fix mistakes that they had the capacities to fix.
But all my complaining aside, if this was the scene that inspired you to pick up stage fighting, it's an incredible piece of art that you obviously hold very dearly and that's the most important thing. Thank you so much for your insight about it.
This comment exactly!
Sounds like the scene is a terrible fight but a great moment. I loved the emotional beats. This was a really good moment in the movie. Unfortunately, I saw the movie after hearing about how they butchered this fight, so I knew the choreography was bad. I'm not very detail otiented when watching movies and probably would have missed most of the issues... but there were so many issues with the choreography that the fight does feel a bit fake even to the casual watcher.
The issue with this fight is that the choreography is bad enough to take away from the scene.
It probably doesn't ruin the scene for most casual viewers, but it does take away from it, and it will certainly ruin the scene for (most) people that care about choreography.
If they couldn't handle that many peoplenon screen they could have simply had aditional guards come out of 2 doorways in the side of the room, making the characters have to deal with 1-3 at a time on each side, but allowing additional enemies to be moving toward the fight.
Instead you see a bunch of lightsaber swings at nothing. If that happens to draw your eye, it can really hinder your enjoyment of the scene.
Also the distraction element for the plot. You just killed the Big Bad without laying the groundwork for any future subordinate to take his place. Both lesser bad guys, Hauk(?) and Kylo Ren are not intimidating. Rian Johnson destroyed his credibility with the mom jokes and the Force Drag takedown earlier in the movie. and Kylo Ren is on a redemption arc and before that, he's a Darth Vader emo fanboy with anger control issues. Neither of them are good enough leaders to pose a serious threat to the galaxy. No gravitas. Like the idea that Po is going to take over the resistance, its not in his character. He's too reckless. But then, the First Order became the Empire Reborn despite losing their superweapon and a large chunk of their forces at the end of the first movie. Rian Johnson just wanted to deconstruct Star Wars because of its history and fame. He never cared about the story or the characters.
@@ericpeterson8732 I pretty much disagree about anything you wrote, but am also pretty sure I won't change your mind 😂 I give you that the first order suddenly being the empire is weird, but that's a problem that the force awakens had already. Their exposition on why everything is how it is, is really bad for a sequel. But that's it. Poe being too reckless is the whole point of ep8. That's his arc. Leia teaches him to be less reckless and to think ahead. And at the end he has learned his lesson and steps up as a leader. That's pretty much a flawless character arc. And now the big one: When Snoke died I was amazed! The thought of Kylo Ren being in charge was so terrifying, because he is not on a redemption arc in the first two movies. They give him multiple chances to redeem himself and he either deliberately doesn't accept them or he "fails" in his perspective, when he can't kill Leia. The thought of this angry unstabile person, who actively embraces the dark side was such a great and threatening idea. Too bad ep9 fucked it all over.... I also don't really see ep8 as a deconstruction as a whole. Johnson and his team made changes to push star wars to new levels and in my imo they mostly succeeded. There was stuff I personally disagreed with. I wasn't a fan of Luke being a self loathing hermit for example. Making the protagonist of a former series a self loathing hermit style mentor in a sequel is a very common trope and imo a bit lazy. But although I don't agree with that choice, they made it work. It's a well written arc with amazing pay off, I just personally wished they did something more unconventional with Luke. So to summarize and to come back to my first comment, the writing is not my problem with the scene. I think it's a set up for a really interesting idea and them working together against the guards is amazing, I just have problems with the execution of this scene, that's it.
@@jc-kj8yc can i ask what about lukes payoff was amazing exactly? He has a double fakeout that doesn't really make sense and Realistically that diversion probably wouldn't have even done anything since he never told the rebals how to get out or even what he was going to do so they just assumed he got in somehow and got lucky that there just so happened to actually be a way out instead of just getting stuck in the tunnels and dieing slightly later from the first order after he was killed not really but actually
@@11111111cupcake it's a movie series about wizards wielding glowy sticks in space. I don't need realism :D and from a Storytelling perspective this payoff is great. It's him finally accepting his role and stepping up. He becomes the big savior half the galaxy thinks he is and he uses Kylo's fears and insecurities against him by provoking him and letting him literally punch (and shoot and slice) the air in stupid, blind rage. It doesn't matter that he was a projection. He did what he could and saved everyone. Giving hope to the galaxy one last time. And him finally becoming one with the force by staring into the two suns is downright poetic. George Lucas once said that Star Wars isn't supposed to repeat itself, but to rhyme itself and Luke deliberately sacrificing himself to save the next generation and dying at peace with himself during is a perfect rhyme to what Obi Wan did for him. And Obi Wan also didn't know if his actions would definitely safe Luke and his friends. They still had to get to the Falcon and get out of there, so Luke not definitely knowing if they could leave the cage is a really minor nitpick. Also he has the power to transcend himself through space. Not too big of a stretch to assume, that he felt Rey approaching them from the other side.
Again, I'm not a huge fan of what arc they chose for Luke in ep8, but I give them props for at least telling the resulting story very competently.
Really appreciate how you discuss the choices the film maker made, why and the result. Not just “it’s good” or “it’s dumb”. Thank you
I think this fight is so thrilling because the connection between Rey and Kylo is as complex as it is intense. Their bond is so strong, but it's not simply a bond of absolute trust. It's also absolute trust in that moment when they both kinda, without realizing it, know that they may not be on the same page at all. It's the hottest sex you've ever had with someone you're not sure you really know. Is this going to be a marriage, or a mess?
I adore this fight. I remember being in the cinema and feeling like throwing up from all the emotion and tention. Its just so good. Im all about the connection
"You can't just keep doing a take over and over again until it's perfect" unless you are Jackie Chan and you do a fan trick that is a few seconds long 120 times until you get it right.
That’s practice not a take. Duh.
Jordan Murphy th-cam.com/video/NOS51qpUoCc/w-d-xo.html
One minor thing I really appreciate about this fight after having to deal with "how can Kylo be an effective villain when Rey already beat that one time when he had several handicaps?" people for a while, I realized that this fight shows pretty clearly (if you look for it) that Kylo is a better fighter. I believe he gets 5 kills to Rey's 3, and he's regularly tangling with several guys at once while she struggles with one or two at a time. He generally knows what he's doing when he hasn't recently been shot (as shown by how easily he takes out the Knights of Ren in the next movie).
Also, if you've never seen it, the video of this fight put to Immigrant Song is amazing.
Dear Disney: GIVE ME MARA JADE. I don't even care if she doesn't end up with Luke, just give me a TV show or a movie with Mara. She is the best.
CaptainPeregrin and please don’t kill her off.
Mara Jade mini-series, anyone? I could go for that.
@@JillBearup I would totally get a Disney+ subscription for that ^.^
Jill Bearup she can do crossover with Dinn or Obi-won! 😻
What I will always love about new Star Wars is the crossguard lightsaber, and how Kylo Ren uses his. It looks like a longsword, and it feels like a longsword. Not a club, mind you, but a very big and very powerful blade.
He does wide swings, brutal slashes, and forceful hacking. It may be less technical, but it sells me how strong and powerful he is.
Watching this I have a bit more perspective. Personally I feel there are scenes in this movie that portray the characters better than how this fight did. Kylo fighting Luke's Force Projection was a better scene than this, even though not a single blow was exchanged and there was no lightsaber clash. It showed Kylo's rage and recklessness when it came to fighting and showed the ease Luke had, because he never had any intention to ever win in the first place. I don't feel for these characters so I guess the emotions of the scene don't reach me like they do for you, so the only thing I have to fall back on is how the scene looks from a different perspective than your own.
I can't believe that a direct-to-camera monologue in front of a green screen can be so singularly engrossing. It speaks volumes that your personality can carry a video like this. Brava! You're going places.
They should of picked up Nick Gillard from the Prequels. He was the Stunt coordinator that gave us Duel of the fates fight, to Darth Vader vs Obi-Wan Kenobi in Revenge of the Sith. He gave us masterpieces. Whomever was there in the sequel trilogy, looked more like something a couple of friends would do in their back yards. The stunt performers were amazing, and elevated the fights as you've said before. However, there is only so far you can elevate garbage. Kylo a trained fallen Jedi looked like a brute, and Rey, looked like a novice. That some where rolled a crit and won off of that.
The character choice of style of fighting for Rey never fit either. Too often she fights with one hand, when she doesn't have the stature for it. IT would of been more believable to me for her to fight most often with a two handed grip so she had the most control and ability to resist the incoming heft with both arms. Especially in the throneroom fight. Now, if Rey had adopted a form of lightsaber fighting akin to Count Dooku's Form 2 Makashi. The ok, i'm totally with it, and lets go! But Rey didn't do that. This isn't slight at Daisy, but a slight against the directors, and stunt coordinators that gave the ok for her to fight mostly one handed.
With Kylo i buy him being able to fight one handed out of his height and power alone. But hell he fights alot of his scenes with an jujutsu style of fighting, in the fact that he uses his opponents weapons, and momentum against them. When Kylo swings, it has power, and determination, and i'm sold on it in ever scene he does. Rey, almost always looks like a novice that is just swinging wildly.
Only in the prequels should the should the duels have been technically proficient. That is when the Jedi were at their peak, if already haven fallen into decadence. Every other film it was half trained kids substituting magic for training or broken oldsters substituting magic for physical ability.
@@jacobvardy No doubts there. But hell if you going to make 2 characters most powerful force users in the galaxy, might as well add some decent lighsaber combat to it.
How you see Rey in beginning of RoS, is how she should of been seen somewhere in 2nd movie, and then Kevin T's version of Rey would of been so much better than what we got.
pls note my problems are with the character, and not the actors. I always found the performances just fine, but it was the characters and the story decisions made for them I have problems with.
I do recall applause and cheering when This scene kicked off!
Personally, I really enjoy fight analysis from people with a genuine martial arts background (such as medival longsword fighting).
But on the other hand, this analysis from a stage fighters perspective is equally interesting.
Could we have a collab with someone from the HEMA (historical european martial arts) community at some point?
That would be fun! Do you have a particular suggestion for someone?
@@JillBearup The ones that first come to mind would be Matt Easton ("scholagladiatoria"). Another youtuber that regularly does fight reviews is SnapJelly. Skallagrim, one of the larger HEMA youtubers occasionally does these too.
Those are some that I can think of off the top of my head, and of whom I know that they actively practice historic swordfighting (with Matt Easton being an instructor).
@@JillBearup if it involves weapons, Matt Easton, Skallagrim or Shadiversity are good options. If it's hand to hand, Ramsey Dewey or Stephen Thompson can give a lot of great input.
This duel is absolutely one of the COOLEST in film, in my honest opinion. So many of the complaints I have heard come from people who claim the Star Wars prequels duels (as fun as they are) are flawless, and refuse to acknowledge when characters literally just stand still or twirl swords at dangerously inopportune moments.
I love every Star Wars entry individually, but episodes 7 and 8 have the most believably realistic fights in the franchise.
Honestly looking back on the scene, it’s really good. However, I think it gets tainted by some of the other movie choices that many people went “wait what?”
Edit: can we just appreciate how Daisy Ridley in the course of three movies has gained so much skill and practice in fighting choreography? She’s amazing
I loved pretty most of the choices tbh. TLJ's best moments are the best moments in any Star Wars movie for me
And I like the movie for exactly those choices, the once that dare to challenge the universe's established principles (the Jedi order that can't do any wrong, for instance). Shaking up the worn-down "good vs bad", "light vs dark" framework is exactly what the franchise needs, so it's sad that it apparently resonated so poorly with parts of the audience (who apparently saw tainting their perfect golden boy Luke as a huge issue). Glad to see that Asohka doing the same is apparently received a lot better (see Clone Wars season 7).
I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised people hate the fight given how people hate the movie. I loved the movie and loved the fight. The movie wasn’t just a rehash of old plot beats. It had something to say. And the fight fit it perfectly, because even after this fight, Kylo is still Kylo, and he hasn’t learned what he needs to to become Ben again, and because of that, he is still willing to burn it all down, as shown by him destroying the most iconic prop. So good!
Jill: Starts explaining why fight scenes can not be perfect... due to actors being tired and pointing out how it's the actors themselves
Me: John Wick would like to have a word with you...
Well, if one considers that Keanu Reeves is a very special person who has the perfectionism and work ethos of a robot makes for a very special combination. Also, most of the John wick fights is between Keanu (who is pretty much as much of a stuntman as any) and other stunt professionals. And has been doing that for most of his life until now. So there is no comparing. This is not a normal situation.
Well said
Not to mention, Keanu's done this kind of thing a while-at least, he trained for the Matrix in the late 90s. I think he trained that for six months, and that was a movie with a lot of wire-work (i.e, a lot of the choreography didn't necessarily rely on him alone.)
Meanwhile, for all I know, this was their first major action think of this scale (it's more complicated than a lot of Keanu's stuff, too, or so it seems.)
The biggest difference though, is that this one particular scene is with 2 actors and a stuntcrew of.. 8-10 people. In a long continuous shot. While John Wick stunts are WAY better executed, they are more divided with different angles and more 1-on-1 CQB. There are some long shots as well, but rarely more than 3 people in that sequence.
While i am not a fan of the TLJ movie, fair is fair.
Something else to factor in... The Star War's films are shot and produced in two year cycles, compared to three as it usually happens. This is a full year taken off the production schedule where they could practice more and nail the steps one sequence at a time.
I guess it made sense to Disney at the time as Star War's still had the hype factor back then, but when you make something that used to take three years, and do it in two, your taking away alot of wiggle room to look at what didn't work, while losing the time to enact quality control on the finished product.
Force bonds are my jam too! I knew there was another person on Earth who loved them!
You mean you want to learn to kick 3 guys with a single straight kick or make weapons disappear from the opponent's hands?
No I want to make three guys spin in place to avoid closing and attacking me from behind.
Spinning is cool...
Praetorian Guards- I'll spin, thats a good trick!
Making your opponent's weapons disappear, more commonly known as "disarming" them, is a valid fight strategy.
I know that you're trying to reframe the discussion back to the technical flaws of the sequence, but it also shows you're ignoring the point Jill is trying to make in this video.
I love film, it is my favorite story telling medium, and hearing your take on films has been amazing. I've seen behind the scenes and scene breakdowns from directors, cinematographers, actors, stuntmen, and even real world professionals involved in the story's focus, and yet you still managing to bring new things to scenes I wouldn't have thought of. Hearing a stage fighter's perspective on fight scenes has done much more to open my mind and appreciate my favorite pass-time even more. Thank you so much for your content. P.s. I'm glad I'm not the only one who likes this scene.